581: "18 Miles Out" (TWD S2E10 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] I contribute, I help keep this place safe.

[00:00:11] The men can handle this on their own.

[00:00:13] They don't need your help.

[00:00:16] I'm sorry, what would you have me do?

[00:00:18] Oh, there's plenty of work to go around.

[00:00:20] Are you serious?

[00:00:22] Everything falls apart.

[00:00:23] You're in my face over skipping laundry?

[00:00:26] It's a burden on the rest of us.

[00:00:27] On me and Carol and Patricia and Maggie, cooking and cleaning and caring for Beth.

[00:00:33] You don't care about anyone but yourself.

[00:00:35] You sit up on that RV working on your tam with a shotgun in your lap.

[00:00:40] I am on watch against walkers.

[00:00:42] That is what matters.

[00:00:43] Not fresh mint leaves and the lemony.

[00:00:45] We are providing stability.

[00:00:47] We are trying to create a life worth living.

[00:00:49] Are you kidding me?

[00:00:59] The Cast of Us, a podcast dedicated to the show.

[00:01:16] Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:23] I'm Jason.

[00:01:24] And I'm Lucy.

[00:01:25] And I'm Rennie.

[00:01:26] Rennie!

[00:01:27] And this is The Cast of Us, episode 581.

[00:01:31] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season two, episode 10, 18 miles out.

[00:01:37] That voice you heard was Archmaester Rennie.

[00:01:39] You might know Rennie.

[00:01:40] Rennie's a longtime listener, frequent contributor, co-host on our House of the Dragon podcast

[00:01:46] Dragon Cast.

[00:01:48] And are you excited for season two coming up?

[00:01:51] Oh, I am.

[00:01:53] And I just watched the new trailer that just came out and it looks amazing.

[00:02:01] It's coming out June 16th, by the way.

[00:02:03] I thought it was July, but it's sooner.

[00:02:05] So right around the corner for House of the Dragon.

[00:02:09] So Rennie, I asked you if you would like to guest and which episode and you picked this

[00:02:14] one.

[00:02:15] Do you want to tell us why now or save it for when we're talking about it?

[00:02:20] Save it for when we're talking about it because it's kind of involved in one of my points.

[00:02:26] Okay.

[00:02:27] Well, before we get into it, I just thought it would be interesting for you to say a little

[00:02:32] bit about what you do for a living.

[00:02:35] Yeah.

[00:02:36] Well, one of the reasons that I like the name Archmaester Rennie is because in real life,

[00:02:43] I kind of am an archmaester.

[00:02:45] I work at a university and my position is vice chancellor for academic affairs, which

[00:02:52] means that I oversee all the academic programs on the campus.

[00:02:57] I started my faculty career as a professor of English and then went into administrative

[00:03:07] work in 2007 and have been doing that ever since.

[00:03:13] So when you say oversee, what exactly does that mean?

[00:03:19] So I handle all of the faculty.

[00:03:25] I'm the boss of all the faculty, some faculty never really think they have a boss.

[00:03:29] But in terms of personnel processes like hiring, promotion, annual reviews and stuff

[00:03:37] like that, those all are things that I do.

[00:03:43] And then if we're going to start a new degree program or we're going to discontinue a degree

[00:03:48] program, I'm the one who ultimately handles that process and gets to make the decision.

[00:03:56] Oh wow, you got some power.

[00:03:58] And I think it would be interesting to oversee a bunch of academics or any field of people

[00:04:04] who are just so accomplished and knowledgeable and just experts in a certain area and then

[00:04:12] see all their flaws in other areas.

[00:04:16] Oh Jason, you understand my job perfectly.

[00:04:20] I used to work at a literary agency where we had a lot of self-help authors who were

[00:04:23] just so brilliant in one certain area, but they were just crazy in a lot of other ways.

[00:04:29] That's really cool.

[00:04:31] I'm glad you're here to talk about this episode with us.

[00:04:36] Oh, before we get into it, I wanted to mention, so last time we were talking about whether

[00:04:43] Shane or Lori said that line, you know it's true.

[00:04:47] And then we watched it and I thought I could see Shane's lips moving, but Lucy, you didn't.

[00:04:53] And so then in our chat, Randy put up a video of himself in his car saying the line while

[00:05:00] barely moving his lips.

[00:05:02] I'm going to play it for you.

[00:05:04] It doesn't have the same impact, of course, because you can't see the video, but I think

[00:05:08] it'll still be fun.

[00:05:09] Here it is.

[00:05:22] Yeah, it really doesn't have the same impact because he's not moving his mouth very much.

[00:05:27] But we've started a movement!

[00:05:28] People are sending in videos now, mainly people in cars trying to say you know it's true without

[00:05:33] moving their mouths.

[00:05:34] It's great.

[00:05:35] It cracks me up.

[00:05:36] I think Peter thinks I've lost the plot.

[00:05:38] He's like, what?

[00:05:39] Is that Peake?

[00:05:40] And I'm like, yes!

[00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:42] And Megan and Penny and Peake all did.

[00:05:45] Here, I'll play- let me play Peake's.

[00:05:47] So I actually- I'm not going anywhere, I'm home.

[00:05:50] I was just sitting in my apartment, but it seems like, I don't know, for some reason

[00:05:54] I need to be in my car.

[00:05:55] So I just- They all were in the car.

[00:05:56] I decided to stop in the car to do this because this seems like a prerequisite now and why

[00:06:00] not?

[00:06:01] I'll do it.

[00:06:03] So let's see how I can do with the you know it's true thing because this is a thing now.

[00:06:07] Thanks Randy.

[00:06:08] All right.

[00:06:09] You know it's true.

[00:06:10] You know it's true.

[00:06:11] You can almost see him not moving his mouth.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] You know it's true.

[00:06:18] You know it's true.

[00:06:20] That's the bottom lip.

[00:06:21] That's the hard one.

[00:06:22] You know it's true.

[00:06:23] You know it's true.

[00:06:24] You know it's true.

[00:06:25] You know it's true.

[00:06:26] All right.

[00:06:27] So, and then that- I just could not get this out of my head as I was putting all these

[00:06:32] together.

[00:06:33] Girl you know it's true.

[00:06:34] Oh oh oh I love you.

[00:06:35] They were moving their mouths but the sound actually wasn't coming out of their mouths.

[00:06:46] Yep.

[00:06:47] Ironic.

[00:06:49] The score's deeper than we first thought.

[00:06:52] Anyway.

[00:06:54] Maybe Laurie's a ventriloquist.

[00:06:56] Wouldn't surprise me.

[00:06:59] And it was her voice coming out of Shane's mouth.

[00:07:03] Or it could have been the other way around.

[00:07:05] Maybe Carl was playing a joke.

[00:07:07] Oh I bet it was Carl.

[00:07:09] Get back in the house Carl.

[00:07:11] I am in the house.

[00:07:15] So all right here we go.

[00:07:16] The Walking Dead season two episode 10, 18 miles out.

[00:07:18] In general, Rennie, guest of honor.

[00:07:21] What'd you think?

[00:07:22] Well so I actually really like this triptych of episodes.

[00:07:28] The Randall episodes.

[00:07:30] Which three?

[00:07:32] The last one, this one, and the next one.

[00:07:35] And I like many things about this episode and I really deeply despise things about this

[00:07:44] episode and I will be talking about those in my points.

[00:07:48] Yeah, I'll be curious to know whether you despise them on a storytelling level or visceral,

[00:07:56] you know, emotional level or both.

[00:07:58] Yeah, on a content level.

[00:08:01] On a content level.

[00:08:02] Okay that's interesting.

[00:08:03] Lucy what about you?

[00:08:04] Similar.

[00:08:05] I tell you something I really noticed about this episode.

[00:08:08] I'm just fresh out my second watch.

[00:08:11] The editing's really choppy in some bits.

[00:08:13] Like it really cuts quite quickly between the two storylines and I was trying to find

[00:08:18] some meaning to that that I'll talk about a bit.

[00:08:23] It's about, I don't know, it's about ways of dealing with the new reality I suppose and

[00:08:28] I think there's, I think it's quite an uneven episode.

[00:08:31] I think there are some moments of brilliance and there are some moments that like Rennie

[00:08:35] that just drive me crazy.

[00:08:38] But I enjoyed watching it and re-watching it, particularly the performances between Andrew

[00:08:44] Lincoln and Joni Bernthal.

[00:08:46] Yeah, I agree.

[00:08:48] So good.

[00:08:49] Bernthal and I thought Emily Kinney was really good too.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:53] Yeah, like thinking about it now, it's like there's thrills in these shows.

[00:08:58] It's a horror show that just keeps on going so you're like oh my god, like oh shit.

[00:09:02] And then this episode and a few Walking Dead episodes, somebody says something and I feel

[00:09:07] equally intense like what the fuck did you just say?

[00:09:10] God, you're so stupid.

[00:09:12] You know when you're like, when you're rooting for Andrea that you're like oh, something

[00:09:16] bad's happened here but there were a couple of moments in this episode where I was like

[00:09:19] oh, Andrea didn't deserve that.

[00:09:22] But yeah, it's confusing.

[00:09:23] Andrea?

[00:09:24] Really?

[00:09:25] I thought she deserved everything.

[00:09:26] No!

[00:09:27] We'll get into it.

[00:09:28] Not the best stuff but some of the stuff Laurie said was pretty fucking hard.

[00:09:33] I mean on the other hand with Laurie, like I was just like oh okay, kudos to Laurie for

[00:09:39] this.

[00:09:40] Kudos.

[00:09:41] Oh, you really went off the tracks there.

[00:09:42] Yeah, you really screwed the pooch on that one, Laurie, didn't you?

[00:09:45] Someone can say some good things and some bad things.

[00:09:47] It's not always all.

[00:09:48] Exactly.

[00:09:49] That's the thing, it's layers, isn't it?

[00:09:51] So yeah.

[00:09:52] Spoilers.

[00:09:53] That's the part I deeply despise about this episode.

[00:09:56] Laurie and Andrea.

[00:09:57] Let's talk about that because I think, I'm not going to say too much because I know you

[00:10:03] want to talk about it but the one thing I wonder on a storytelling level, because I

[00:10:09] don't know if this is saying the writers think women should just be put in their place, you

[00:10:13] know?

[00:10:14] I think maybe it's meant to get us talking about it like we're about to but I don't know.

[00:10:19] Well, if that's what it's meant to do, it worked.

[00:10:23] Do you want to start there, Rennie?

[00:10:25] Sure.

[00:10:26] That was going to be my third point but I'll flip it and make it my first point.

[00:10:29] We don't have to.

[00:10:30] No, that's fine.

[00:10:31] Let's do it.

[00:10:32] So my point is the preservation of traditional gender roles in the zombie apocalypse.

[00:10:38] Blech!

[00:10:39] Sorry, that's me.

[00:10:42] Lucy decided to do her zombie sound.

[00:10:46] Gender!

[00:10:47] Blech!

[00:10:48] If you've got a sound of vomiting, Jason, soundboard that there because yeah, I hear

[00:10:52] ya.

[00:10:53] So there are many ways in which I like the early seasons of The Walking Dead much better

[00:11:00] than the later ones, mainly because everything mattered.

[00:11:04] Every death mattered.

[00:11:06] Every person mattered.

[00:11:07] It wasn't always just a mad rush of let's just wipe out hundreds of Zeds in a minute

[00:11:17] and I liked that a lot.

[00:11:19] But the one thing that I did not like was the relentless policing and enacting of traditional

[00:11:27] gender roles.

[00:11:28] So it's not just Laurie and Andrea.

[00:11:30] The conversation that Rick and Shane have at the crossroads is a display of possessive

[00:11:36] patriarchy.

[00:11:37] My wife, my son, my baby, I have to protect them.

[00:11:43] And they're both doing that, right?

[00:11:46] But at the same time, interestingly, Shane says, I didn't keep Laurie and Carl alive.

[00:11:53] They kept me alive.

[00:11:55] And that's actually caretaking was giving him a reason to live, which is traditionally

[00:12:02] assigned to being a feminine role.

[00:12:06] But then Laurie, Laurie is such a misogynist, so much internalized misogyny and sexism,

[00:12:14] and she enforces the traditional gender roles in both season one and season two.

[00:12:22] And it just made me really hate her as a character.

[00:12:26] When she tells Andrea that the men can take care of standing watch, and Andrea should

[00:12:31] do laundry when Andrea is one of the best sharpshooters.

[00:12:37] And by the way, that's not a shotgun, it's a rifle.

[00:12:43] That is a prime example of how human capital is wasted through gender role policing.

[00:12:50] Why shouldn't somebody who's one of the best shots, no matter what their gender or their

[00:12:55] age is, be the person who stands on guard?

[00:12:58] Maybe Rick and Shane should do some laundry to cool themselves out.

[00:13:06] So I like it that Andrea tells Laurie off, but her rationale isn't precisely striking

[00:13:10] a blow for feminism either, because she points out that Laurie has a storybook life and a

[00:13:17] boyfriend too.

[00:13:19] And others can't have that as if that was the only thing to aspire to.

[00:13:25] Luckily in the later seasons, we do get rid of this gender role policing.

[00:13:30] We find some nurturing men like Aaron and Gabriel, and some seriously kick-ass women,

[00:13:37] primarily Michonne, but also Rosita, also Maggie.

[00:13:43] And then best of all, we get Carol play-acting the stereotypical gender role in order to

[00:13:49] be a stealth agent, a stealth agent, right?

[00:13:53] An agent of stealth, a spy.

[00:13:57] And she's playing that role after she's already transformed into a formidable warrior.

[00:14:02] So eventually, instead of being trapped in a gender role, she now gets to play with that

[00:14:07] gender role.

[00:14:08] Mike, drop.

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:10] No, I mean, like, I was just feeling like Laurie's being so good here.

[00:14:21] She's trying to comfort Beth and she's telling Andrea, you know, no, you don't leave her

[00:14:30] alone to kill herself.

[00:14:32] And then, yeah, then they start veering off into, like you say, gender roles and that she's

[00:14:37] criticizing Andrea for keeping watch, which you need someone to be up there with a gun

[00:14:44] keeping watch and saying, you know, the burden is greater on us to cook the food and do the

[00:14:52] laundry and all this stuff like that.

[00:14:54] And it's ridiculous.

[00:14:55] And I would guess that the writers know that people aren't going to be like, yeah, Laurie's

[00:15:03] right.

[00:15:04] I think they know that most people watching are going to be like, no, Laurie, I think,

[00:15:09] right?

[00:15:10] I don't know.

[00:15:11] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:12] There's a huge Tradwife Walking Dead contingent.

[00:15:13] And you know, no, yeah, you're right.

[00:15:14] You're right.

[00:15:15] I think so.

[00:15:16] And I think that's one of the things I've always liked about the idea of The Walking

[00:15:20] Dead is the idea that and I think Kirkman did a great job of this actually in the comics

[00:15:24] that it's a good time to sort of question, oh, do we really need to keep doing things

[00:15:28] the way that we've always done?

[00:15:29] I mean, it's always a good time to question that.

[00:15:31] But especially after this, when the whole world order is just shaken up and destroyed

[00:15:36] and the show does do that, as you mentioned, like the women just are become more and more

[00:15:41] badass and respected and gender becomes less of an issue.

[00:15:46] But we're still early on.

[00:15:47] And so I actually think it's a good story point to put it in there, even though I think

[00:15:52] it's, I don't know, I was going to say it's hard to believe that anyone would talk and

[00:15:57] act like Laurie, but I don't think it's that hard to believe, actually.

[00:15:59] Oh, I don't think it's hard to believe.

[00:16:02] It's horrifying.

[00:16:03] It is.

[00:16:04] Yeah.

[00:16:05] I think Laurie has a lot of resentment sometimes for the life that she's in because she talks

[00:16:09] in those flashbacks about her and Rick getting together so young and Carl saying things like

[00:16:14] you're just a housewife and things like that.

[00:16:16] So I think she's in this weird position where the role that she's in is the role that she

[00:16:23] is in, but perhaps she resents it and perhaps she feels trapped in it.

[00:16:27] But sometimes the way that that is expressed is by judging those who do not have that.

[00:16:31] Like the thing that struck me the most about this scene was how bitchy Laurie is to Andrea.

[00:16:37] Like it's quite unprovoked at a certain point where she says, you'll understand if I don't

[00:16:41] send you through there.

[00:16:42] I was like, whoa there.

[00:16:44] Okay.

[00:16:45] Andrea's being a bit self-obsessed here by talking about her situation, but she goes

[00:16:49] from that to, oh and you're such a productive member of the group.

[00:16:52] Like it really goes quite feral quite quickly.

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:56] I think resentment has been building up, you know?

[00:16:59] Yeah.

[00:17:00] And I think that line about sitting up in the RV working on your time with a shotgun

[00:17:03] in your lap is just pretty unforgivable.

[00:17:06] And I really, I push back against this idea about domestic stability and the we are providing

[00:17:12] stability.

[00:17:13] I'm like, oh God, get the farm overrun and get them eating dog food ASAP because this

[00:17:18] is terrible.

[00:17:19] I just hate it.

[00:17:22] And it does.

[00:17:23] I mean, I think there is something to be said for having good food around, having a clean

[00:17:29] place, but it doesn't have to be all the women doing that and the men doing this other thing.

[00:17:34] Whoever feels drawn to do whatever, you know?

[00:17:36] I mean, if there is an imbalance and they need to address it within the group, like no one's

[00:17:40] doing the laundry, but maybe Glenn would like to do the laundry rather than being set down

[00:17:45] wells, you know?

[00:17:46] Oh, let's start.

[00:17:47] Let's start a movement.

[00:17:50] Let Glenn do the laundry.

[00:17:51] It's safer.

[00:17:52] It's safer for him.

[00:17:53] We love him.

[00:17:54] It's, I agree with you, Rennie, that it does.

[00:18:01] I find it so hard because this is the closest I come to feeling like I'm on Andrea's side

[00:18:05] is this point where Laurie is being really unfair to her.

[00:18:09] Stupid, because what she's saying is if you were a man, it would be okay to do that.

[00:18:13] Our place is here.

[00:18:14] And it's hinted at earlier when she's talking to Maggie about like our job is to stay here.

[00:18:19] What goes on out there goes on out there kind of thing.

[00:18:22] Which I just think is so ridiculous.

[00:18:24] Other episodes she's said things to that hint at this way.

[00:18:27] Yes, she has.

[00:18:29] But then Andrea comes in and it becomes a little bit about jealousy and a little bit

[00:18:35] about, oh, the reason I do this is because I don't have the traditional heteronormative

[00:18:39] markers that you do that are successes.

[00:18:42] And which is bullshit because she was just telling like she's saying, oh yeah, easy for

[00:18:46] you to say, Laurie, that Beth should just be fine because you have everything.

[00:18:51] You have your son and your husband and all that.

[00:18:54] But just a few minutes earlier, Andrea had been saying just a few minutes earlier, oh,

[00:19:00] Beth needs to find reasons to live herself.

[00:19:03] That contradicts that.

[00:19:05] It's like, oh, well, then you're suggesting there could be some reasons besides just all

[00:19:08] this bullshit.

[00:19:09] But I think also at this point they're kind of just yelling at each other.

[00:19:14] And it's like those arguments where you say things and later maybe go, oh, God, I guess

[00:19:18] I shouldn't have said that.

[00:19:22] But I think it's good for the series.

[00:19:27] It's not necessary, but it's OK for the series to explore this kind of thing early on.

[00:19:31] And I'm glad that it wasn't an issue throughout the series.

[00:19:34] I'm glad it kind of went away.

[00:19:36] At least I think it did from my memory.

[00:19:37] At least it wasn't as pronounced as this.

[00:19:39] It really did.

[00:19:40] Yeah, I think it did.

[00:19:41] I think a lot of The Walking Dead moved with the decade in which it was really developing

[00:19:47] and got more intersectional and got more up to date on how things were.

[00:19:52] But I think I think it's good for like race.

[00:19:56] You know, we talked about race early on, too.

[00:20:00] For these things to have been an issue early on and then for them to realize we don't need

[00:20:06] to worry about this stuff anymore.

[00:20:07] Let's just have people be people.

[00:20:11] Anyway, OK, Lucy, you want to go?

[00:20:16] OK, so there was some pretty heavy handed symbolism in this episode that I think I liked,

[00:20:23] but I think it showed the show at a younger age than it became.

[00:20:30] I think there's bits of this that were more heavy handed than they might have been in

[00:20:33] later seasons, but it was interesting to see on a very basic level.

[00:20:38] I was really noticing that with most of the Walker kills, what they have is like a plastic

[00:20:43] knife or proper whatever, and then they add the blood and viscera and the wound through

[00:20:47] CGI apart from when they really kill walkers, which, you know, they just show the full thing.

[00:20:54] But I noticed it much more.

[00:20:55] I don't know if it was the quality of the one I was watching.

[00:20:56] I noticed a bit more of the CGI than I'm used to, I think just because it's earlier seasons.

[00:21:02] But in terms of the kind of literary symbolism in it, let me go through some of the examples.

[00:21:08] So one of the first ones is Shane looking out the window at the lone Walker kind of

[00:21:14] ambling through the field.

[00:21:16] And I think that Walker turned up in the credits for quite a long time.

[00:21:20] I feel like we see that Walker repeatedly.

[00:21:22] So obviously there's something there about Shane as a lone wolf going out on his own,

[00:21:28] not being part of a group striding away.

[00:21:30] Yeah, I think that's because Rick just got told Shane, look, you have to accept that

[00:21:39] I am capable of taking care of Laurie and Carl and that Laurie is not your wife or girlfriend.

[00:21:48] She's my wife.

[00:21:49] You need to let go of that.

[00:21:51] And so then for Shane, and then Rick's just kind of going through some logistics about

[00:21:56] things that they're going to do over the winter and all that.

[00:21:59] And Shane's just like, wow, my whole purpose was just taken away and my connection to

[00:22:03] this group and where do I even fit in anymore?

[00:22:07] And maybe I'll just be like that Walker all by myself, like the walking dead out there

[00:22:10] alone, not too far from now.

[00:22:12] That's the vibe I got from it.

[00:22:14] 100%.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] Isn't that lone Walker Greg Nicotero?

[00:22:20] I think it might be.

[00:22:21] Oh, it might be.

[00:22:22] It wasn't on IMDB, but I have heard this before.

[00:22:26] By the way, we'll go back to the IMD deep dives this episode.

[00:22:30] So after that they drive over this intersection.

[00:22:33] It's like a level crossing.

[00:22:34] Do you call them level crossings in America?

[00:22:37] Overpass.

[00:22:38] Overpass.

[00:22:39] Okay.

[00:22:40] Yeah.

[00:22:41] So they pass over that and I'm kind of like junction in the road.

[00:22:46] scope this department of public works and then we get the symbolic cop Walker.

[00:22:51] Two of them, two cops.

[00:22:53] If only we knew two other cops who are also here going through some shit.

[00:22:57] So they kill these, they take down these two walkers and then they move the bodies.

[00:23:01] So they're lying side by side, which is handy for later symbolism.

[00:23:05] So we've obviously got ciphers here for Rick and Shane and the people they used to be in

[00:23:09] the identities they used to have in their history together.

[00:23:13] The next symbolism, kind of visual symbolism I thought was Shane literally throwing a wrench

[00:23:20] in everything and smashing the window.

[00:23:22] Oh yeah.

[00:23:23] I didn't even think about that.

[00:23:24] I didn't think about it until this episode.

[00:23:25] I was literally writing my notes and I'm like, Shane throws a wrench in the works.

[00:23:32] And then we get that iconic image of Shane seeing his reflection in the glass and he

[00:23:37] looks like a Walker.

[00:23:38] He's like bleeding from the mouth.

[00:23:39] He's pale and he sees himself in this kind of monstrous state and you can tell that really

[00:23:45] kind of impacts him and how he views himself.

[00:23:49] Then we have, it's kind of standard sort of Zed action for a little bit.

[00:23:56] But one of the things that changes Rick's mind and makes him go back for Shane is that

[00:24:01] he sees the Zed cops on the ground and is reminded of the history we have together.

[00:24:07] One point where I thought the janky editing might have been making a point is that this

[00:24:12] comes just after we see Beth holding her wrist saying I'm sorry and then we see Rick having

[00:24:17] second thoughts and I'm like, oh there's something here about regret.

[00:24:22] But then I went back and tried to piece that together in the other juxtapositions and I

[00:24:26] couldn't quite get anywhere.

[00:24:28] He sees the Zed cops, he goes back and rescues Shane and then finally we see the solo Zed

[00:24:35] again walking through the field and as Shane is watching him we actually see a bit of the

[00:24:40] field framed in the corner of the window of the car.

[00:24:43] So it looks as though Shane is kind of also immersed in a field.

[00:24:48] And obviously he's thinking again about his place within the group and the way in which

[00:24:52] he is alone and separated.

[00:24:54] So I thought they were heavy handed on the Walker symbolism but I did enjoy it in this

[00:24:59] episode.

[00:25:00] No, I mean I don't feel like that one especially in particular is heavy handed because it is

[00:25:04] symbolism but it also is just a real feeling in the moment that I could see him having,

[00:25:11] you know.

[00:25:12] It works for that moment not just on a symbol level but an emotional level.

[00:25:17] I think the heavy handed one was like the cops lying side by side practically holding

[00:25:21] hands and Rick looking at them like what could this possibly remind me of?

[00:25:24] And I was like hmmm.

[00:25:27] Yeah I like it all, I like all that.

[00:25:29] I liked it.

[00:25:30] That's good.

[00:25:31] Cool.

[00:25:32] Okay my turn.

[00:25:33] Rick and Shane.

[00:25:34] I'm just going to kind of go through their dynamic and through the lens of the events

[00:25:42] of this episode.

[00:25:43] So Rick pulls over, he wants to talk to Shane about what happened with Otis and this is

[00:25:49] right after the whole Macbeth scene, last lady Macbeth scene.

[00:25:53] And it did make me wonder why it seemed a little like oh you're taking him out.

[00:26:00] It's almost like you're deciding whether you want to put Shane out to pasture if he

[00:26:04] gives the wrong answer here.

[00:26:08] But Rick says was it to survive which I liked because he sort of intuits that Shane wouldn't

[00:26:14] do that unless he felt he had to.

[00:26:17] And Shane said yeah one of us wasn't going to make it out, it had to be him.

[00:26:20] One shot to the leg, Carl lives.

[00:26:22] And I think that's absolutely true.

[00:26:24] If he hadn't done that Carl would probably be dead.

[00:26:28] Shane didn't even mention that he had at first told Otis to go on without him and Otis

[00:26:32] wouldn't.

[00:26:33] And so the choice was either both of them and Carl die or just Otis.

[00:26:37] I think that's what the writers had in mind anyway.

[00:26:39] Otis was going to die no matter what.

[00:26:40] Yeah, I remember it being when we rewatched it much more of a catch 22 than I thought.

[00:26:44] I was like oh okay there's a bit more context to this than I've remembered.

[00:26:48] And it's like what we said earlier in this podcast just because Shane did that one thing

[00:26:54] arguably right doesn't mean everything he did was right.

[00:26:57] But then Shane kind of ruins it by saying really he had no business being here, there,

[00:27:03] whatever.

[00:27:04] So he's sort of saying yeah I had to do it but Otis was not built for this world.

[00:27:10] That phrase that is sort of a theme of this season.

[00:27:15] And that also implies that maybe he thinks Rick doesn't have any business being here

[00:27:19] either or at least that he needs to prove it and Shane and Rick gets that.

[00:27:22] You don't think I would have done it?

[00:27:24] No man, I know you wouldn't have.

[00:27:26] You think I can't keep Lori or Carl safe?

[00:27:31] So it's funny how the conversation turned from did you kill Otis to I totally would

[00:27:35] have done that too.

[00:27:36] I'd have done it better.

[00:27:37] I'd have done it more.

[00:27:38] My penis would have been even bigger.

[00:27:39] I can do it.

[00:27:40] I'm a man.

[00:27:41] And you're like okay yeah uh huh.

[00:27:45] And because we covered the Lord of the Flies on Yellowjackets.

[00:27:50] It's not out yet but it'll be out soon.

[00:27:53] And there was this Freudian interpretation of some of the characters in that so I was

[00:27:57] thinking of that as far as Shane and Rick go.

[00:28:02] And I don't ascribe a lot to Freud.

[00:28:04] A lot of his thoughts have just sort of been thrown by the wayside over the years.

[00:28:09] But the whole id, ego, super ego thing is kind of interesting maybe.

[00:28:13] So Shane is like id, Rick is ego and maybe Dale is super ego.

[00:28:19] Just to remind people it is the primitive part of the personality.

[00:28:24] Basic drives and instincts.

[00:28:26] It seeks immediate gratification for desires and wants and needs.

[00:28:30] And if those aren't met then it generates anxiety and can fuel aggressive destructive

[00:28:34] energy directed inwards towards yourself or outwards towards others.

[00:28:37] The ego develops from the id and ensures that the impulses of the id can be expressed in

[00:28:42] a manner acceptable in the real world.

[00:28:44] It operates on the reality principle mediating between the unrealistic id and the external

[00:28:49] real world.

[00:28:50] So it's part of the conscious and unconscious mind.

[00:28:52] And then super ego incorporates the values and morals of society which are learned from

[00:28:57] your parents and others.

[00:28:58] Its function is to control the id's impulses especially those which society forbids like

[00:29:03] sex and aggression.

[00:29:05] And so Shane says Rick you can't just be the good guy and expect to live.

[00:29:12] Okay not anymore.

[00:29:13] And Rick says I'm not the good guy anymore.

[00:29:15] To save Carl's life I would have done anything.

[00:29:18] Now Laurie says you're dangerous but you're not going to be dangerous.

[00:29:22] Not to us, not to me anymore.

[00:29:24] You and Laurie I get what happens.

[00:29:27] And then he says when I figured it out I wanted to break your jaw, let you choke on

[00:29:31] your teeth but I didn't.

[00:29:33] That wasn't weakness.

[00:29:34] It took everything.

[00:29:35] So that's like the ego.

[00:29:36] You have to mediate your impulses, your id.

[00:29:42] And then we know, oh and then he says that is my wife, that is my son, that is my unborn

[00:29:48] child, I will stay alive to keep them alive.

[00:29:49] Oh you said that wrong Jason.

[00:29:51] It's my son!

[00:29:52] My wife!

[00:29:53] My son!

[00:29:54] My wife!

[00:29:55] See I don't have the same filter for that as you do I don't think.

[00:30:03] It sounds possessive but given that Shane seems to want to kill Rick because of his

[00:30:09] love for Laurie, I think it's reasonable for Rick to be like she doesn't want you and it's

[00:30:16] my wife.

[00:30:17] You're right.

[00:30:18] I didn't say it the way Rick did.

[00:30:19] My wife!

[00:30:20] But if you go back and listen to the way that Andrew Lincoln delivers the line, the emphasis

[00:30:27] is all on the my my my.

[00:30:29] Yeah but he's saying my not yours like step off buddy.

[00:30:34] But she's not his anything.

[00:30:36] She's her own person.

[00:30:37] That's the thing.

[00:30:38] Exactly.

[00:30:39] She's not his property.

[00:30:42] Not his property and I don't think that's what he's saying.

[00:30:47] He's saying like unless they're gonna have a thruple that either Rick and Laurie are

[00:30:52] a couple or Rick and Shane are a couple and I think he's just...

[00:30:56] Rick and Shane?

[00:30:57] No not Rick and Shane.

[00:30:58] Well it could be Rick and Shane.

[00:30:59] No I think you said it right.

[00:31:00] I think you said it right.

[00:31:01] I think your chemistry is off the charts.

[00:31:02] It's Rick and Shane, Laurie and Shane.

[00:31:03] It is.

[00:31:04] So so he's just he's saying it can't it can't be a thruple right and so...

[00:31:13] Why not?

[00:31:14] Well there are no rules.

[00:31:16] But it's not going to be Rick and Shane aren't gay and they're not gonna go there.

[00:31:21] You know that's pretty clear.

[00:31:23] I mean that would be a different story.

[00:31:24] That'd be fine.

[00:31:25] There is a story like that in the comics but that's not the story that they're telling

[00:31:29] here and so if it's going to have to be either Rick and Laurie I make sure I get this right

[00:31:35] or Shane and Laurie then that's kind of like and Laurie and Rick have both decided they

[00:31:41] want to be together so he has to make that clear to Shane.

[00:31:44] Like you're not in you're not her boyfriend anymore.

[00:31:47] I'm back.

[00:31:48] You know I think that's totally reasonable.

[00:31:50] It's not saying you don't take what's mine.

[00:31:53] It's more like hey we can't have a successful group here if you're if you keep trying to

[00:31:58] sleep with my wife and kill me.

[00:32:01] I think the problem underlying it is that the way these relationships are set up in

[00:32:05] in life and the way that we've always understood hetero relationships is that there's an element

[00:32:11] of possession of male over female and I don't think for a minute Rick literally thinks

[00:32:16] he owns Laurie and is playing that here but it's the social conditioning of it's my wife,

[00:32:23] it's my kid, it's this thing you know it is mine when actually they're all their own people

[00:32:27] within that.

[00:32:28] Yeah I think that's the kind of the bit that sticks in the craw and I think it's enhanced

[00:32:34] by then having Laurie be like well my job is to be in the kitchen.

[00:32:37] I know like she's playing into the whole possessiveness thing but I don't know I just

[00:32:42] I'm not sure I think that Rick sees is arguing like you don't take what's mine.

[00:32:48] I think it's more like hey we're a couple here and you don't fit into that equation

[00:32:54] you know.

[00:32:56] Well I think that you are a much more reasonable man Jason than either Rick or Shane and that

[00:33:03] influences your reading of the scene.

[00:33:05] Yeah it could be.

[00:33:06] You could be right.

[00:33:08] I don't know I think Rick is a more reasonable man than Shane but maybe not.

[00:33:13] Well maybe right now but in future seasons.

[00:33:18] Future season but not in that way though where he's claiming possession over people.

[00:33:23] I see him being unreasonable in other ways.

[00:33:26] Underlying thing that I see which is nobody ever even considers the possibility that Laurie

[00:33:34] might be able to take care of herself.

[00:33:35] I mean obviously Carl's a child that needs to be taken care of but there's you know this

[00:33:41] idea that the men have to protect the women but Andrea doesn't really look like she needs

[00:33:46] a lot of protecting.

[00:33:49] Look at how Shane I mean Shane Rick is with Michonne later on.

[00:33:54] Exactly yeah that's yes.

[00:33:55] That's why I like later seasons better.

[00:33:57] Rick is the kind of guy who gives it doesn't say oh you're a woman so you need to be like

[00:34:04] this.

[00:34:05] No he sees that Michonne can take care of herself and he fully respects her that way

[00:34:09] and I think he probably if Laurie was like that right now he would do be the same.

[00:34:16] I don't think he's saying hey don't mess with my property buddy.

[00:34:20] I just think he's saying hey we're a couple here and you don't fit into that equation

[00:34:23] but I could be wrong.

[00:34:24] I don't know.

[00:34:25] That's not really the main point of what I'm saying here.

[00:34:28] It's a little bit a part of it but I think whatever your read on the situation is Shane

[00:34:33] is not welcome in this as a romantic partner you know for Laurie and that's the point

[00:34:39] that Rick wants to get across and he says you don't love Laurie and that the only reason

[00:34:45] you can keep on is if you accept everything I just said.

[00:34:49] So he's just saying if you don't let go of Laurie and this idea that you can keep them

[00:34:52] safe and I can't then you're gonna have to leave the group I think is what he's saying

[00:34:56] and Shane barely nods.

[00:34:58] It's almost the same as when he was saying what was he saying.

[00:35:02] You know it's true.

[00:35:03] It's like a nod.

[00:35:04] Just a little bit of a nod.

[00:35:08] But then he doesn't accept it you know and I think Randall ends up is such a crucial

[00:35:17] part of what goes wrong between that's why Randall's there to provide this decision point

[00:35:23] for Rick that Shane absolutely doesn't approve of so that Shane will have reason to totally

[00:35:28] go against Rick because first it was the zombies in the barn and they're taken care

[00:35:32] of so now it's Randall and what else yeah we already talked about the lone zombie and

[00:35:40] then when they try to drop him off and they fight because he tried to shoot Randall and

[00:35:47] Rick stopped him that was so intense and he just said straight out I don't think you can

[00:35:51] keep safe the way that Bernthal delivered that line right before he started to attack

[00:35:56] him was so good and then that was such great TV and so tragic them and then throwing the

[00:36:04] wrench at him was so was fucked up man that could have killed him and it's a good thing

[00:36:10] he wasn't a good and then of course that woke up all the Zeds and that's my point about

[00:36:15] Shane is maybe he has some points worth talking about there but he has no control no self

[00:36:21] control over his emotions and that ends up putting people in more danger than anything

[00:36:26] you know yeah that whole situation was Shane's fault yeah yeah and like it's just like at

[00:36:32] the camera that's why I think that Shane I don't think he would we always wonder what

[00:36:37] how he would do against later villains I don't think he would do that well against the governor

[00:36:41] or Negan or Alpha because he's not in control of himself yeah and that you just can't be

[00:36:48] effective like that you're gonna get yourself in trouble he's an absolute hothead I'm trying

[00:36:54] to see if I have any I'm just like actually think oh go ahead Lucy I just say what Randy

[00:37:00] said of it hasn't occurred to them that Laurie can look after herself I don't think it's

[00:37:03] occurred to Laurie either exactly well that's because of patriarchy because she's been taught

[00:37:08] that women have to have a man to protect them but what I was gonna say is I actually think

[00:37:12] it's both their fault that they both screwed up in a way that people aren't gonna screw

[00:37:18] up later in the apocalypse because they didn't check to see if there were any Zeds in that

[00:37:24] building they didn't have an oversight before they were planning on leaving Randall there

[00:37:29] by himself they're trying to find a good place and it's like not this place at this point

[00:37:34] if Rick were to take Shane's advice about killing anyone who's a threat he should maybe

[00:37:38] kill Shane like Shane yeah and he doesn't oh that would have been a good scene like

[00:37:44] you have to kill anyone who's a threat and Rick's like sure bam that'd be amazing and

[00:37:48] then he gives him like even like he's saying at the beginning look if we're gonna continue

[00:37:52] on you have to accept this then Shane tries to kill him and then at the end he's like

[00:37:56] you're really gonna have to accept this like he just gives them another chance and and

[00:38:02] I and one more thing I wanted to say about all that is I can get into Shane's head here

[00:38:08] a little bit and he's just like they I love that line about they were what kept me alive

[00:38:14] because that really gives me the feeling of why he's so obsessed with them just thinking

[00:38:19] like oh my god zombies are eating everyone I'm gonna die and then thinking oh wait I

[00:38:24] can I my purpose is now to protect these people and whatever so so and then when Rick comes

[00:38:31] back he's just thinking Rick can't protect them the way that I can he just can't he's

[00:38:35] going to get them killed and spinning on something that you think you're right about or I should

[00:38:40] say myself I've been in that situation no one's gonna be surprised by that where I feel

[00:38:45] like I'm right on something and I just keep thinking over and over about it so I can

[00:38:49] totally get into his head about that but he sometimes you just gotta let go you know

[00:38:55] even if you are right his relationship to Rick in this episode was fascinating to me because

[00:39:01] the shape like we spoke about this a bit on the last episode about the little boy inside

[00:39:07] of Shane and you see that when Rick's talking to him in the first scene where he says you

[00:39:12] know I figured it out pretty quickly I'm really glad Rick said that because it confirms

[00:39:17] that he's not dumb about Shane and Laurie but you know Shane looks so shamed in that

[00:39:23] episode and I think for me it was very interesting when he sees Rick drive off the look of abandonment

[00:39:30] on his face and that for all he criticizes Rick for being this good guy he relies on

[00:39:36] it too and there's a fleeting look of joy on his face when Rick comes back and I don't

[00:39:43] know and he gives him this look when they're back in the car together that's almost appraising

[00:39:47] like oh you did something I wasn't expecting or like you've got more grit to you than I

[00:39:51] expected I loved that I thought that was really interesting yeah he's the type of guy that

[00:39:55] if you punch him in the face he might respect you more which is so macho

[00:40:02] but I would also just like to note how great Bernthal's acting is in all of the things

[00:40:08] that you were just describing that's possible because Bernthal is able to convey that with

[00:40:15] very little muscular movement in his face yeah he's got the vibe he's so great all the

[00:40:23] plaudits for Bernthal I think he's so good he looks like a monster for most of this episode

[00:40:27] and there's still part of me almost rooting for him at points like especially at the start

[00:40:33] when Rick's giving him this dressing down and I just almost feel sorry for him for a

[00:40:39] minute there almost but then he's very human goes off again yeah he was a great I'm so

[00:40:45] glad they kept him around extra season because his comic book readers know he should really

[00:40:50] have been gone by the end of season one but yeah it was it was worth it for sure he's

[00:40:56] love him as the Punisher he guest starred on Daredevil and then had two seasons of

[00:41:02] his own series and now MCU version of Daredevil is coming back I think early next year sometime

[00:41:07] next year and he Bernthal's gonna be in it again as the Punisher so I'll be cool for

[00:41:11] Bernthal fans okay ready okay my next point is Ernest Dickerson who is the director of

[00:41:21] this episode and this is good because picks up on some of the points Lucy was making and

[00:41:27] also some of the things you just observed Jason so Ernest Dickerson was Spike Lee's

[00:41:34] cinematographer and he did the cinematography for Do The Right Thing and for Malcolm X and

[00:41:40] some others of Spike Lee's films so he definitely has that eye of a cinematographer and then

[00:41:47] he went on to have his own directing career and he directed some not great horror movies like

[00:41:53] Tales from the Crypt, Demon Knight which I have to admit I've never seen but then he also has

[00:42:01] done quite a bit of TV he did several episodes of The Wire and of Dexter and he did 11 episodes

[00:42:09] of The Walking Dead including the one I was on the I think both the ones I was on oh yeah

[00:42:17] between his episodes were between season one and season five and so I you know I think that

[00:42:24] there are just some beautifully composed shots in this episode that shows his background as

[00:42:30] a cinematographer one which is when Shane comes onto the bus and we see the back of his head in

[00:42:42] the mirror as he's walking down the bus aisle and seeing things and so we see him both coming

[00:42:48] and going at the same time right we see him from the back in the front and that's actually

[00:42:53] technically a very difficult shot to achieve because whenever you have a mirror like that

[00:42:58] you have to put the camera somewhere where the mirror doesn't pick up the camera and it has to

[00:43:01] be lit properly so that's actually not a simple shot to accomplish and then the shot that's

[00:43:10] already you mentioned where Shane's reflected in the broken window and he looks like a walker

[00:43:18] and then the walker hand comes up behind his reflection in the window pane I thought that was

[00:43:26] just a great shot and then the single walker in the meadow Lucy we're talking about the symbolism

[00:43:36] of that and I see that as really good visual storytelling even if the symbolism is a little bit

[00:43:45] obvious it's done visually and also the same is true for the the two dead walker cops you know in

[00:43:54] fear the walking dead Rick would have stood there and said to Randall you know now that I see these

[00:44:00] two cops together it reminds me of Shane and me and my youth that I'm now starting to think that

[00:44:05] maybe I shouldn't leave Shane I should go back and get him right exactly but Randall's like no

[00:44:12] it's a short hands yeah so we get what Rick is feeling without having yeah yeah Randall's like

[00:44:19] just kill me am I on fear the walking dead? But this this episode manages to get all of that across

[00:44:27] visually and I think that is great and so much better than putting it in any um

[00:44:33] and you get a feeling from it which I like when I'm moved especially the lone zombie I felt

[00:44:37] something there you know yeah yeah yes and that shot is so beautiful oh it's wonderful even the

[00:44:44] way he's moving is really yeah there's something to yeah gambling along um and then uh when they

[00:44:52] put Randall back in the trunk at the end we get a shot from Randall's point of view looking up

[00:44:58] at Rick and Shane and they're standing very close together and they're they're alive and

[00:45:05] they're together the way that the two walker cops were dead right and so that's a contrast

[00:45:13] and we are Randall in that moment yeah for the moment they're they're working as partners again

[00:45:23] um and then uh one of the one of the things um that I thought was that I thought maybe you would

[00:45:32] mention in your talk about symbolism Lucy is um Lori says to Maggie sometimes you have to cross

[00:45:40] the line yes and then the next shot we see the swerve marks on the road where the car that they're

[00:45:47] driving with Randall in the trunk has crossed the center line and then crossed over back again so

[00:45:53] they've literally crossed the line Rick and Shane have crossed the line and then they've crossed

[00:45:58] back yeah yeah and then Shane crossed the line with Rick by throwing a wrench at his head and

[00:46:05] I was thinking about that line as well in reference to Lori taking the pills and realizing that she

[00:46:12] didn't want to she wanted to keep the baby um and I wondered I don't know yeah I bet you that's

[00:46:18] what they were going for love this god you guys are so insightful I love it do you feel like you're

[00:46:24] in a lit seminar Jason it's great it adds a lot to it I'm listening to a good podcast

[00:46:32] yeah okay that's great that was it cool Lucy um I feel like we're gonna get into the Andrea of it

[00:46:40] all I don't have as strong feelings about this as I thought I might um I was more distracted by the

[00:46:48] Andrea and Lori scene which we've touched on but what we see in this episode is Beth is suicidal

[00:46:54] she wants to attempt to die by suicide um I think it's important that we use the phrase die by

[00:47:01] suicide rather than commit suicide because that's a problematic term to use so um Beth wants to take

[00:47:07] her own life um Maggie is very opposed to this understandably Maggie's in a horrible position in

[00:47:13] this episode I felt really sorry for her um I feel like Maggie's having to carry a lot in these two

[00:47:18] episodes with her dad gone and and Beth being the way she is now and what we see is Andrea sees

[00:47:25] herself in Beth's trajectory and she wants to give Beth the choice that she feels was taken away from

[00:47:31] her so Andrea lets Maggie go out take a break um and actually opens the door to the bathroom for

[00:47:41] Beth I had it in my head that she left the glass or left the knife with her but she actually just

[00:47:46] opens the door and says is this what you want and then we don't see what happens next but we can

[00:47:50] assume that Andrea goes away and leaves Beth on her own Beth does cut her wrist but immediately

[00:47:55] regrets it is very upset and apologizes to Maggie who has busted the door down with the help of

[00:48:00] Laurie so there's a big thorny question here about Andrea's actions her motivations for them

[00:48:07] and the outcomes of it I think Andrea raises a good point at the start about people being allowed

[00:48:14] to make their own decisions but I don't think that Beth is in a position to make her own decisions

[00:48:20] here I think she's a lot younger than Andrea was when she wanted to do the same thing I think she

[00:48:26] undermines Maggie's attempts to comfort Beth I think what she does is in many ways pretty

[00:48:32] unforgivable and particularly the way she responds when Maggie's very angry at her which is to smile

[00:48:37] smugly and go she wants to live which I just think is the worst response you can give when someone's

[00:48:44] like what the fuck did you just do so yeah it's a resounding thumbs down for Andrea but I'm less

[00:48:51] angry about it than I thought I would be do we do we know how old Beth is supposed to be

[00:48:58] teenager teenager high school age I always had her as like 15 or 16 but I can double check this

[00:49:04] in the background while uh you know you'll chat yeah I get a feeling she's just a kid

[00:49:12] well should I go through my thoughts on this whole thing yeah go she's supposed to be 16

[00:49:20] sorry just 16 or 17 yeah I uh so when I think I might have mentioned this on a podcast before but

[00:49:30] it's years ago back in high school I thought about suicide um it was after a breakup my first

[00:49:40] real love you know and I felt so depressed and I felt like there was nothing to live for and

[00:49:46] I just couldn't muster up any enthusiasm for anything and I didn't want to feel that way

[00:49:52] and it lasted for weeks and I told my friend Dan I just can't think of anything to live for

[00:49:58] I don't think I really thought about it seriously though I was just like fuck I hope this is over

[00:50:02] I hope this ends at some point or I'm in trouble um so when there was there did start to be it

[00:50:08] started to fade and I felt some relief and some joy I was so grateful and relieved um

[00:50:15] so so now you know I'm I've had kids you know this whole podcasting thing so many great things

[00:50:23] in life I'm so glad that it never did get to a point where I would decide to take my life but

[00:50:28] I think I mean watching The Last of Us not to spoil anything but I'll just say that the subject

[00:50:33] comes up in a much different context and it's much more of a debate there I would say but here

[00:50:40] not only is Beth young but she's just experienced a lot of trauma and she's really in the middle of

[00:50:48] emotion about that and I I resist the idea of just being okay with people taking their own life I mean

[00:50:59] also if you're at the end of your life if you're in a terminal illness that's you're suffering

[00:51:05] you're older then yeah I say yes absolutely at that point so there there's you know debate

[00:51:11] to be had about all this but when you're young you've just gone through a trauma and you're in

[00:51:17] the middle of the emotions about it then I would say you need to try to at least get let some time

[00:51:24] path so you're clear-headed and you can make a decision from a place of having a clear head

[00:51:31] she's nowhere near that and for Andrea to not only just leave her alone but to tell her sister

[00:51:39] I'm gonna watch over your sister that you're super worried about and then leave her alone

[00:51:46] like I've really been trying to look at everybody with fresh eyes and not just go into the

[00:51:51] stereotypical this person's annoying this person like and just notice when they do good things and

[00:51:57] I think Laurie did a bunch of good things this episode some not so great but anyway Andrea too

[00:52:02] but after this I can be like okay yeah after this I can notice when Andrea does good things I know

[00:52:08] things are going to come up where she did good things but I'm not gonna like her anymore because

[00:52:12] I can't forgive this it's just so bad and if you're gonna look around in the group and decide

[00:52:18] you want to kill someone because they're dangerous to the group Andrea is also a good contender at

[00:52:22] this point I mean fair to be honest yeah well you know you could end up there being nobody left

[00:52:34] that's a good point um I thought Emily Kinney was so good at just being really listless it reminded

[00:52:40] me of that time when I was in high school just that paleness in her face and that faraway look

[00:52:45] in her eyes and just so sad and grief-stricken and uh they're reminding me I had forgotten but

[00:52:51] I interviewed her on this podcast years ago it was episode 163 if you want to go back and listen

[00:52:57] I actually don't remember anything about it but um the show notes say big thanks to Emily Kinney

[00:53:02] for joining me for an in-depth long time coming interview we talked about her music her thoughts

[00:53:06] on art acting and using emotion in your art and life what it's like to smash a jar of lollipops

[00:53:12] against a man's head and her thoughts on some of Beth's biggest moments over her time on The

[00:53:16] Walking Dead so maybe that's good I don't know I'll put a link in the show notes if people want

[00:53:20] to check it out so that's what I thought and the whole thing about like oh she chose life and I mean

[00:53:28] it's like well you got lucky there what if she hadn't then what would you think like yeah you

[00:53:34] got lucky but I just think maybe encourage her to wait a few days at least at the very very least

[00:53:42] you know yeah and then see it makes me um glad that um Andrea's maybe not put in a parental

[00:53:52] role too soon I'm not saying trying not to be too judgmental because there are lots of different ways

[00:53:57] of parenting um however the the idea of empowering somebody to make their own decision

[00:54:04] amazing not this decision not this method not at this age yeah and not tricking someone into

[00:54:11] letting you do it lying you know if I was Maggie I would I mean I'm glad Maggie said you don't

[00:54:17] ever come in this house again but she should have been like Rick uh Andrea's a bad person

[00:54:29] Laurie go whisper in Rick's ear

[00:54:33] okay whose turn is it Rennie no it's it's you Jason oh it's my turn oh I'll just take that as

[00:54:39] my turn oh okay um okay so my third point is um the reason that I that I chose 18 miles out when

[00:54:50] when you asked me to come on um the podcast which is how much I love unanswerable questions as they

[00:54:58] are posed in fiction and I think that you know in this case it's the dilemma of Randall and what to

[00:55:05] do about Randall and I don't think that there is a clearly right answer I think each of the three

[00:55:17] options that they talk about could be debated as having points in its favor and points against it

[00:55:26] so first one is thruple right oh you know that's the fourth option and that's clearly the one to

[00:55:33] go with okay solved thank you Jason we're good Jason's standing over Randall's body like what

[00:55:40] we're like you know so should they keep him as a prisoner or should they kill him or should they

[00:55:49] let him go are the three options that I that I think that they that they debate and I think

[00:55:53] that's the three options that exist um so you know if they keep him as a prisoner one of the

[00:56:01] ironies of the fall of civilization and I'm putting civilization I'm literally doing my

[00:56:06] fingers here putting civilization in air quotes is that after the fall of civilization there are

[00:56:11] no more prisons um and it's very ironic that next season they're gonna find a prison that will become

[00:56:17] a haven right kind of an inside out prison because the idea is that you're you're free and safe inside

[00:56:26] the prison because it keeps out the walkers and if they were in the prison when this went down

[00:56:31] then it would uh keep an imprisoner would be a much more viable option who knows if they would

[00:56:37] choose it but it's not practical right now necessarily you know yeah they could lock him

[00:56:42] in a cell and be reasonably sure that he wouldn't get able to get out right yeah basically in the

[00:56:49] current circumstances there is really no way to restrain him that would be really

[00:56:55] safe so that you wouldn't have to worry that he would get loose and come kill you in your sleep

[00:56:59] yeah yeah throw him in the well I guess yeah that's it keep him in the well yeah

[00:57:06] chain him to the laundry tub make him do all the laundry right um uh so you know uh do you kill him

[00:57:15] well dale poses the question about that that's important which is what does that make us if we

[00:57:21] kill him right it is it is a decision to be living by a different set of rules than the ones that

[00:57:28] they've all lived with all their lives uh what do you exile him now interestingly in ancient Athens

[00:57:36] exile was a worse penalty than death because the Athenians thought that being anywhere else than

[00:57:41] Athens was worse than death so but um they can't exile him because he knows where the farm is

[00:57:52] um so that would and and we know that he has um connections to a gang that outnumbers our people

[00:58:02] so that is too dangerous um so what then should they do and the more important question I think is

[00:58:13] how should the decision be made who gets to make the decision is it the rictatorship uh

[00:58:23] is it consensus of the whole group uh is it something in between and why does rick get

[00:58:29] to be in charge anyway yeah uh and why does shane have to follow rick's lead they never had

[00:58:37] to make this decision you know who says we just fall into this assumption of that's how it's going

[00:58:43] to be organized and by we i mean the group i don't mean yeah us we kind of do too maybe a lot of us

[00:58:49] anyway yeah oh yeah absolutely but i think that's something that's really worth questioning and for

[00:58:54] those of you who are all prepping for the apocalypse as i of course always am um the most

[00:59:00] useful thing to think about is who are your neighbors how well do you know your neighbors

[00:59:04] how well do you get along with your neighbors because where i live there's the possibility of a

[00:59:11] very big earthquake happening which could cut us off and isolate us from help from anywhere for a

[00:59:19] long time so the few people who live right on my street are going to be the people i have contact

[00:59:25] with after that apocalypse and you know are we am i going to be rick yes i would be in that colony

[00:59:36] like a shot and i would be very happy to have you amazing

[00:59:43] so i you know i i don't have i don't have an answer to what the right thing to do is and i

[00:59:50] love any piece of fiction that can uh present me with a question that does that i don't immediately

[00:59:56] have a right answer that i can you know cite the justifications for and that's what the last of us

[01:00:02] did as well which is why i love the last of us so much for sure yeah walking dead does that a lot

[01:00:07] and have you played the telltale game at all i have there's a lot of that where you have to make

[01:00:12] the decision and you have like three seconds to decide whether to like chop your leg off or kill

[01:00:16] some guy or something i don't know that's right and i i actually played season one uh twice the

[01:00:24] first time i played it for real making this is the decisions i think i would really make and then

[01:00:28] the second time i decided i was going to go down the path of darkness and make the worst possible

[01:00:33] decision in every case that's what's fun about that game exactly the um slight tangent just

[01:00:41] because i know renny's interest the telltale game of thrones game was amazing yeah pretty i have not

[01:00:46] played that one oh the only bad thing is it's a cliffhanger so and they never yeah i was gonna

[01:00:51] say there's a decision you have to make that i was like lost my mind over i was like no

[01:00:58] and then it was a cliffhanger and i was like oh it's it's very good but yeah it is i mean it's

[01:01:05] the the randall of it all is i was thinking about how randall behaves in this episode and if we get

[01:01:11] any clues as to how whether they're right or wrong because we know that he shows his ass with shane

[01:01:18] in a later episode where he's like oh i love the guys they're all really cool or whatever i mean

[01:01:22] that's very badly phrased i'm sure in two episodes when we cover it i'll be like that is not what

[01:01:26] happened um but we're always we're watching him to see what kind of a person he is every little

[01:01:31] tell well i think we can trust darryl's judgment of him not that he got the information in a

[01:01:39] good way but um darryl has been around enough people who run with gangs and

[01:01:48] are yeah that's next week marauders to no one when he sees one yeah right absolutely

[01:01:56] and what i it's funny you mentioned darryl because one of the things that really interested

[01:02:00] me was the glee on randall's face when he manages to get his arms in front of his body um in order

[01:02:07] to attack the um female walker that's coming for him and he says something like come on bitch or

[01:02:14] something like that yeah i think he says show me what you got bitch and he says it in a really

[01:02:18] hateful way and at that moment i'm rooting for the walker yeah and i'm saying yeah let's just

[01:02:23] kill randall but then i think but then i think in episode two or three we see darryl

[01:02:30] shoot a walker in the face and call it an ugly skank and i think what he does is not as bad

[01:02:34] as what randall does here because randall is like going for it with the knife but it interests me

[01:02:39] and i'll forgive it with darryl because it's right at the start when they're still figuring out who

[01:02:43] these characters are but it interested me because my instinct was the same as you renee it was like

[01:02:47] oh god no kill him he's awful and then i was like oh darryl did call that woman an ugly skank and

[01:02:54] then stab her in the face yeah and also like just to play devil's advocate because clearly that

[01:02:59] moment was like oh you're you hate women you know and you get off on hurting women that's the vibe

[01:03:05] that he but then then you're like okay yes devil's advocate it's a monster it's not a human being

[01:03:12] and sometimes people use that word just for anything you know and so i think um yeah like

[01:03:20] renee what you're saying this is an interesting um development because there's it's there's a lot

[01:03:26] of debate and so i can take the other side of that debate and see it for like okay this doesn't

[01:03:32] necessarily mean he's a bad person but it sure did give me that vibe but of course nobody neither

[01:03:38] rick nor shane saw him do that yeah right only the audience saw that so they can't factor into

[01:03:45] their decision but for us even for us because i'm still at this point watching the show when i haven't

[01:03:51] seen later episodes trying to decide for myself whether i think he's a good or a bad person and

[01:03:57] at this point i still wasn't sure the way that rick screams shut up specifically to randall many

[01:04:04] times is i want it to be my ringtone he's just so he's so fucked off with randall all the time he's

[01:04:10] like shut up and randall's like okay sorry sorry man like he's such a pain in the ass i think me

[01:04:15] and karen made fun because there's this old show um gomer pile where we always talk like this you

[01:04:22] know don't kill me i think i think rick shouting shut up would be the awesomest ringtone ever

[01:04:30] because do you really want your phone to ring no so it's like the phone itself to shut up shut up or

[01:04:36] i will shoot you i'm like yeah lucy's in a restaurant and all this yeah shut up or i will

[01:04:46] shoot you oh it's my mother don't worry yeah hi mom all those all those kind gentle uk people look

[01:04:53] at lucy i know i'm not sure you're one of us they're just like i'm sorry where have you come

[01:04:58] from and i'm like oh you know scotland um but i also cracked up at the end because i was like

[01:05:05] oh randall's driving that's cool and then i realized rick had taped his neck to the seat

[01:05:11] for some reason that just sent me i was like that is so ridiculous so randall had to sit there while

[01:05:16] rick duct taped him to the seat of a car i just it really made me laugh um and the other bit that i

[01:05:23] think was unintentionally quite funny is when randall's bleating all this stuff about you know

[01:05:28] i was a normal guy but when he's like i went to school with maggie and then rick and shane turned

[01:05:32] around these like two ridiculously aggressive macho men both just screaming repeatedly you went to

[01:05:39] school with maggie did you go to school with maggie and i'm like wow they're really whoa i've got a

[01:05:45] headache just listening to this um yeah it really made me laugh and do is randall telling the truth

[01:05:52] that he went to school with maggie well he's an idiot if he's not telling the truth because that

[01:05:57] was his death warrant yeah and you shouldn't have said it if it's not true i mean you shouldn't

[01:06:02] have said it even if it is true yeah yeah yeah but he's i mean he took again devil's advocate

[01:06:10] he's kind of in a horrible situation probably not thinking too straight you know true yeah

[01:06:15] because there is some debate in the next couple of episodes isn't there about whether or not

[01:06:19] he's telling the truth because maggie can't remember him yeah but he said she never knew me

[01:06:24] i love the feeling that he like had a crush on her or something yeah she never saw me and i'm like

[01:06:29] or he could just be lying yeah you never know you live in her barn now so they i mean if they care

[01:06:35] about whether he went to school with maggie they could ask questions about the school and stuff and

[01:06:38] find out yeah so i think it's interesting the whole situation because of what it says about

[01:06:45] rick and shane you know it's about whether you should take care of the people you don't know

[01:06:52] at the expense of risking the safety of the people you do know and to what degree it's about whether

[01:06:57] you should have compassion and rick says yes and shane says only if it doesn't cost or risk

[01:07:02] anything or maybe he would just say no i don't know um so watching this through this the first

[01:07:08] time and even now i was studying randall to see what kind of a person he is trying to judge

[01:07:13] whether he deserves compassion but it occurred to me today that rick actually i mean i guess it

[01:07:21] would matter to him if randall was just a total monster but he is sort of assuming that randall's

[01:07:27] a bad guy he's not like oh i wonder if he could be a part of our group he's like no we have to

[01:07:32] get rid of him somehow like you said the three choices uh i mean for rick it seems to be two

[01:07:37] choices take him away and leave him somewhere or kill him and otherwise he could just keep him

[01:07:43] around and make him part of the group and um years later he chooses to lock up negan rather than kill

[01:07:50] him but yes but not practical here you know like we were saying necessarily um i think it makes a

[01:07:58] difference whether he's a decent person caught up with bad people or he's just a violent aggressive

[01:08:03] person himself and um i remember when i interviewed angela kang the first time i asked her about that

[01:08:09] and she told me but i'm gonna save that for next week because that i might play some clips from it

[01:08:14] but for now up to this point evidence for being a good person or at least not deserving of being

[01:08:18] killed he says you know why would you save my life just to kill me by leaving here i'm just

[01:08:23] one guy i can't make it alone that's why i was with those guys i was alone i'm not like them

[01:08:29] i used to watch football and screw around on the internet i live with my mom i lost her like you

[01:08:33] lost people i went to school with maggie like all that stuff could absolutely be true especially with

[01:08:40] a guy as young as him that he just was like okay i'm either going to be on my own and die or i have

[01:08:46] to try to make it work with these assholes until i can find another situation you know yeah and

[01:08:53] another thing that is a good point is this is a man's life and rick wants to take a night to think

[01:08:58] about it you know i like that line a lot when he said you know it can't be as easy yeah and i think

[01:09:04] that's an important point that it shouldn't be an easy decision to make and it does become very easy

[01:09:10] for him later to the point where he's shooting at random people that he doesn't have any idea who

[01:09:14] they are exactly and that's one of the things i that i like about the early seasons of the

[01:09:21] of the show better is that one man's life does make a difference and in in later seasons i can

[01:09:28] see them either leaving randall stuck on the fence for the zombies yes or shooting him so

[01:09:34] that he doesn't get eaten by zombies yeah they left orange back that guy yeah yeah totally but i i love

[01:09:40] that because i think it's the character rick's character progression which he then i believe

[01:09:45] comes back from that place of darkness um but anyway evidence for being bad is what shane says

[01:09:54] for randall being bad is that he shot at rick and ran with men who tried to kill them he the thing

[01:10:00] with the zed where he's got a big smile on his face come on bitch let's see what you got um he

[01:10:08] when shane is stuck on the bus randall suggests leaving him but then rick kind of says that's

[01:10:15] a good idea he does intend to leave him i think but it's still a point against randall i would say

[01:10:21] randall's a bit of a devil on the shoulder but we could just leave the ambiguous evidence is what

[01:10:31] daryl the information that daryl kicks out of him about what the gang he was with did um when they

[01:10:40] had evidently found another group of people and killed all the men and worse than killed the women

[01:10:47] and uh and then randall keeps saying i didn't do i didn't do any of that i didn't i didn't hurt any

[01:10:53] of the women well is he is he telling the truth there or is he did he belatedly realize that when

[01:11:02] he owned up to the fact that the group he was with did that that he better disclaim having done

[01:11:08] any of it himself and i don't think there's any way to know whether he's telling the truth

[01:11:11] about that or not right unless you ask angela k

[01:11:16] okay uh from the evidence presented in the show i don't think there's a way to know what but it's

[01:11:22] suspicious though i think he's super suspicious um and one more thing i think it's worth noting

[01:11:27] that later on rick and crew end up trusting people and allying with people that i think are much

[01:11:33] sketchier than um randall like the saviors after all that war it's a different situation but they

[01:11:38] try to integrate right and um and i think even though it's such a bad situation to have to be in

[01:11:46] at all the more we can do that kind of integration versus keeping separate enemies is better because

[01:11:54] if we huddle up in our little bubbles of people that we care about and say fuck you to everyone

[01:11:58] we don't know then we'll just have a bunch of warring tribes and i've been watching x-men 97

[01:12:02] and i love professor xavier's dream of having peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans

[01:12:07] in that case um so your um i'm more on that your coverage of civil war touched on this as well jason

[01:12:14] i listened to that yesterday very interesting yeah that was that was an interesting that was

[01:12:19] great movie i thought i think by the way i was thinking about the x-men i think um

[01:12:25] negan's like magneto magneto he just wants to dominate interesting

[01:12:30] he's not as hot as michael fassbender in that although some people oh god i just set feminism

[01:12:35] back 20 years sorry everyone i'm keeping that in all right so lucy you didn't really get a

[01:12:43] separate point do you want to do one yeah let me have a look i think most of mine that's left is

[01:12:48] notes the music in this episode was cool i forget that in season one two of the walking dead they

[01:12:52] actually used kind of named tracks yes um i i did also love this is tangential to this i'll come

[01:13:00] back to the music it's something really off-putting in the walking dead when they mention something

[01:13:04] specific from pop culture and in this episode when rick talks about his cousin listening to

[01:13:09] the audio book of the lord of the rings it really took me out of it yeah i was like you should be

[01:13:16] saying that name i was like of course lord of the rings exists in this universe but it just felt

[01:13:20] really like oh okay yeah um are there zombies in lord of the rings there's there are orcs there's

[01:13:27] already undead yeah no there's the the army of ghouls there's an army of the dead yeah that's

[01:13:33] right that's right you know about zombies rick yeah we found a hole in it um well they're not

[01:13:41] really zombies they're ghosts yeah they're they don't have bodies right i guess yeah they're okay

[01:13:46] and then aragorn like dingies them before the final battle which seems really anyway spoilers

[01:13:51] towards the rings everyone um so when randall we first hear the music in randall's ears

[01:13:58] um it's lazy bones with wooden ships s-h-j-i-p-s um then we also have a later

[01:14:08] track when we have randall's headphones being taken out it's phase wave by the cave singers

[01:14:17] after that the next bit of music that we hear is when r- uh shane and rick put randall back in the

[01:14:25] car and it's a band called driver's seat and the song is called sniffing the tears and the cool

[01:14:31] music for the ending of shane looking out the window kind of contemplative is civilian by y

[01:14:37] oak and they're all very cool for some reason that one sticks out to me more i feel like they

[01:14:42] might have used it more than once or i don't know they used some good folky country gothic music in

[01:14:50] the walking dead really well in the first four seasons and that's one that stuck out to me there

[01:14:54] um and along with that the kind of artisticness of this episode i think we're seeing it become

[01:15:00] more autumnal like the colors and saturation and what people are wearing are becoming more

[01:15:06] the sense that to quote a show that i'm sure you've never heard of winter is coming um and that

[01:15:12] it's interesting the show is starting to really shift into that gear yeah it's a well done well

[01:15:18] done episode okay i have one more it's about the zombies a lot of awesome zombie stuff some cool

[01:15:26] firsts and questions that come up i like the inmedious res cold open with shane and rick on

[01:15:34] the run from them and i thought it was another school because there's a school bus but it says

[01:15:38] merit county department of public works and the big mean one bearing down on rick and he looks

[01:15:44] like freaked out that was very cool and shane is trapped in the bus and i'm thinking he's like

[01:15:51] you know this is totally unnecessary rick we could just kill randall and not have to put ourselves in

[01:15:55] danger like this yep and then out of the blue rick in the car says we got to start using our

[01:16:03] knives more and that really stood out to me you know and that ammo is uh we could save ammo and

[01:16:09] the knives be quieter because that might be the smartest thing rick's ever said it really changes

[01:16:15] the course of the whole series and the way he kind of the power shift with that in this episode where

[01:16:23] he's walking shane through he's teaching his way let me show you oh it's so tense it's really juicy

[01:16:29] i love it how to be smart shane and not just go nuts and i was thinking um maybe this is on his

[01:16:36] mind because he's like what could i've done better with sophia well well i love that part where where

[01:16:45] rick is talking about we got to use knives to conserve ammunition we gotta plan for the winner

[01:16:50] blah blah blah because i know most people aren't interested so much in the logistics but i'm totally

[01:16:57] a logistics junk junkie i love it whenever there's planning about how do we you know how do we make

[01:17:04] these things happen how do we survive at the you know at the level of um logistics and so i i loved

[01:17:14] that part have you read the comic i have yeah there's more way more of that yes way more of it

[01:17:20] yes and world war z is another great book that has yes a lot of that kind of stuff um at when i

[01:17:26] started watching uh the show i had not read the comic um i read the comic after i had seen

[01:17:35] maybe the first four seasons and i was just stunned at how different yeah it is from the

[01:17:41] from the show yeah uh so more zombie stuff uh we get the first knifing of a zed head through a

[01:17:49] fence i believe which we end up seeing so much more of and prison season it was interesting

[01:17:54] yeah especially then rick wipes the blood on the fence to draw the zed over and i don't think they

[01:18:00] use that anymore they did twice this episode shane does the same thing on the bus he's very i

[01:18:07] love shane's face when it works and he's almost annoyed that rick's way work he's like

[01:18:12] okay he's looking it does make sense that they would be attracted to it but just from that far

[01:18:17] away like i don't even know rick could have been wrong it might not have it might have had nothing

[01:18:20] to do with why the zombie came over it might have just seen him but i don't know yeah exactly it it

[01:18:24] seemed to me to be unnecessary because as soon as the zombie sees or smells or whatever you

[01:18:31] it's gonna come so you don't really need to lure it i think they didn't want to have him make noise

[01:18:38] because the whole point was we can use knives that will make less noise and draw but he could

[01:18:42] have just went yeah exactly he shoots two zeds rick that pile onto him and has to shoot the

[01:18:50] third by shooting one through through the head which is so cool and it kind of reminded me of

[01:18:55] a scene from no spoilers but the ones who live at the end there oh a little bit um the whole thing

[01:19:04] about you got to think the cold affects them if it doesn't kill them it's got to slow them down

[01:19:09] that reminds me of a great issue of the comic early on which they couldn't really do that way

[01:19:15] in the show because i guess because they're filming in georgia in the summer and fall and it just

[01:19:21] didn't snow it was hot in fact but they did end up doing some snow stuff way later in season 10

[01:19:28] so they found out a way to do it and then shane doesn't see any bites on the i guess was it two

[01:19:36] cops was it and uh rick i mean we know now that rick knows that's because everyone turns yeah

[01:19:44] but he just says gotta be scratches then and i'm like why is he keeping that i guess he just doesn't

[01:19:48] want to bum everyone out or what you know that's one of my notes is the question why is he keeping

[01:19:54] the fact that everybody's infected a secret yeah maybe he just morale i think he doesn't believe

[01:20:02] it yet i think he wants to see evidence for himself well there's the evidence right yeah

[01:20:10] yeah could be having a day there's a lot going on he's like tell him later

[01:20:19] and shane died not knowing the truth about that

[01:20:23] all right so let's get into notes ready well like i said one of my notes is why is rick going to such

[01:20:30] lengths to try to keep this a secret we just talked about that um the other thing i had is just there's

[01:20:36] some really nice um foreshadowing there in the line that you already mentioned jason when shane

[01:20:43] says uh you can't just be the good good guy anymore and expect to live and rick says i'm not

[01:20:49] the good guy anymore to save carl's life i would have done anything anything and that just wraps

[01:20:54] around really nicely where this isn't a spoiler but in the ones who live rick talks about the

[01:21:01] worst thing that he ever did which was something he did to do to save carl so here he's saying i

[01:21:06] would do anything and down the line he does do anything right but it also brings up the point

[01:21:12] that carl and laurie are both gone and you sort of wonder well how could he how could anyone keep

[01:21:21] them safe you know i don't remember the exact circumstances around laurie in the prison i know

[01:21:26] there was a prisoner letting zombies into areas and i can't remember if rick could have done

[01:21:31] something different to prevent that and then carl was just off with uh well so rick couldn't rick

[01:21:38] couldn't have saved laurie once herschel died because she had to have a cesarean and she was

[01:21:45] not going to survive that um without her no matter what yeah yeah i guess yeah i thought they made a

[01:21:52] point that she was off on her own but maybe that's what no herschel was still alive was he oh yeah he

[01:21:59] had been he was bedridden he had oh that's right yeah that's right but i think i think the point

[01:22:05] that they were with her yeah he was with maggie because it's who had to do it does this cesarean to

[01:22:13] to deliver judith and i think there was always a always a thing over laurie being pregnant that

[01:22:20] she'd had to have a c-section with carl and the chances of her being able to deliver any other

[01:22:24] way were limited so he's not the only reason she's dead i mean i don't yeah we'll have to be watching

[01:22:30] for that but it because i remember they this one um prisoner let zombies in i forgot his name and

[01:22:39] so it caused all this commotion and that's why laurie and in maggie and carl were separate but

[01:22:46] you know could shane have done any better maybe he would have trained them more or something i don't

[01:22:51] know you know you know you just can't know you can't answer that question but the fact is that

[01:22:57] rick didn't succeed in keeping them safe maybe he couldn't have done anything but they're gone

[01:23:04] yeah they're gone yeah

[01:23:07] anyway what you got anything else uh no that was all my notes

[01:23:12] all right i got a few um shane tells a lie he says he didn't look at laurie before the apocalypse

[01:23:20] he said last week that it had been a long time coming so yeah that's not truthful um

[01:23:27] and i think that might be my only note although it's interesting that randall says one guy can't

[01:23:32] make it alone and i wonder if that's in uh shane's head um also one of the zeds the featured zeds that

[01:23:41] is focused in on rick when it comes out of the municipal building is actually one of the makeup

[01:23:47] artists from the show um which i thought was interesting and there was a lot of good hyundai

[01:23:52] product placement in this episode yeah i noticed the hyundai looked a little smudged and a little

[01:23:59] dirty you know and i can imagine like the amc executives talking to the hyundai rep like people

[01:24:06] just keep saying that the car's too shiny and it stands out and they're like okay you can put a

[01:24:10] little bit of smudge on there it can have a little dirt on the dust yeah well then they

[01:24:16] focus we really focus in on the speedometer so you get a really good idea of like how shiny the

[01:24:20] dashboard is that's a good product placement he's like you're more than 18 miles on this very shiny

[01:24:26] speedometer that we have um yeah i wonder how many walking dead fans got hyundai's because

[01:24:31] because if you did let me know one of my friends has that car and he didn't i was like um

[01:24:37] he back in the day yes but he didn't twig and i was like you know you've got

[01:24:41] the car and he was like oh god not the one that shane and andrea had sex

[01:24:49] he like looked so depressed and i was like it's a good car he's like i wonder where i got the idea

[01:24:54] for that yeah so this episode was written by scott gimpel and glenn mazara current and future

[01:25:01] showrunner so if you like this episode you have gimpel at least partly to thank

[01:25:07] i heard he wrote all the parts with lori saying that women should be doing the laundry

[01:25:13] he's like i like to put all of my own beliefs into it

[01:25:18] actually do you know of all the things i've dragged gimpel for portrayals of women isn't

[01:25:22] one of them this is when all the listeners like you dragged him for like 10 episodes

[01:25:27] and i'm like did i um it's not something i associate with him as like yeah like oh he

[01:25:33] writes women shittily but you know maybe he got feedback on this text and was like

[01:25:39] i mean do you i don't want to go into this too much because we already talked about it but do

[01:25:42] you think there's anything to what i'm saying about it is a good story point to have women

[01:25:46] like this who can be argued against or whatever it would be just not even have it if i could be

[01:25:53] assured that the perspective of the show was critiquing heteronormative patriarchy but i

[01:26:00] don't see that in this first two seasons of the show yeah i'm with you on that yeah maybe not i

[01:26:07] mean i want to believe that it is but when you're having andrea be the most important annoying

[01:26:14] character and she's the one taking the other side then it's suspect but i can't believe anybody would

[01:26:21] think it was okay for laurie to say that though so that's where i'm like i think it is but well

[01:26:26] i don't know you'd hope not you'd do it all right maggie tells laurie that glenn isn't the same after

[01:26:33] they went to get her shell and he blames her for freezing up when there was danger and laurie says

[01:26:37] tell him to man up and pull himself together and i i mean given we're talking a lot about gender

[01:26:43] that's an unfortunate turn of phrase but i think there is something to that honestly i think

[01:26:48] it is important to understand you know to be understanding when people are having emotional

[01:26:54] problems but also like when you have tension and challenge then just facing it and pushing through

[01:27:03] it and you can grow and learn from it without that kind of a thing you can't grow or learn

[01:27:09] and so there is a part of me that's like yeah glenn pull yourself together go back into the

[01:27:14] laundry glen jesus okay driving randall out there to drop him off reminds me of this horrible

[01:27:23] thing that happened when i was a kid maybe i shouldn't even mention it but when i was a kid

[01:27:27] i lived on it for a little while i lived on a dairy and we had all these stray cats that i would

[01:27:32] try to tame and i was holding one and i was six years old holding one in my hand and the screen

[01:27:38] door accidentally slammed on its tail and it bit my nose and it was hanging off my nose and

[01:27:44] i started crying and just so much blood was coming down and my mom came out and saw that

[01:27:50] and they ended up taking the cat and dropping it off somewhere

[01:27:53] and now as an older person i'm like why did they do that it was not the cat's fault but

[01:28:01] yeah i'll probably edit that out it's just a bad story for no reason what in case the cat

[01:28:08] is in my mom you left me it was your fault and last uh beth mentioned she thinks the farm will

[01:28:18] be overrun and she ends up being right there's some foreshadowing for you like yeah in about

[01:28:23] three days right yeah she's like i am jason reminded me last week uh i had been doing

[01:28:33] timeline checks and imdb dives um my poor excuse for forgetting about this is that i lost my

[01:28:40] podcasting notebook in the move it has since turned up but i've started doing my notes digitally

[01:28:45] anyway so i have returned with timeline and imdb dive which will cover the last three episodes

[01:28:50] but will not take long because there's actually not that much time passes so in the timeline

[01:28:56] nebraska and trigger finger both take place on the night of the third of november into the early

[01:29:02] hours of the following day so the third of november is 72 days into the apocalypse this

[01:29:07] blew my mind rick has only been awake for 13 days oh my god two weeks less than two fucking guys

[01:29:16] bloody hell i was like holy moly i'm i'm used to the shows the spinoff shows and the end of

[01:29:24] the main show you know being years and years and years into the apocalypse so i had this funny

[01:29:29] reaction when the rick and shane stopped at the crossroads i said that's brand new asphalt over

[01:29:35] there how can they have brand new asphalt and then i remembered oh yeah we're still very early in the

[01:29:40] apocalypse at this point he's not even been awake two weeks two weeks and also that does make me

[01:29:46] think like yeah that baby's definitely not rick's anyway uh trigger finger happens during the

[01:29:52] daytime of the fourth of november which is 73 days into the apocalypse 18 miles out we actually have

[01:29:57] a mini time jump rick talks about it having sat for a week um the official walking dead wiki it's

[01:30:04] not the official the walking dead wiki says that nine days have passed so we've made it to november

[01:30:09] 12th um we're 80 days into the apocalypse so rick will have been awake for three weeks

[01:30:14] what are three weeks it has been if it's supposed to be november given the amount that they're

[01:30:20] sweating i don't think they're going to have a cold winter yeah i know i was like november

[01:30:25] um imdb diving i've really honed these into the ones that actually tell you something rather than

[01:30:33] the ones that are just like this episode we see rick have two sides to his personality and i'm

[01:30:38] like great amazing uh so in nebraska the bar scene was filmed at the old sharpsburg auction building

[01:30:44] in sharpsburg georgia um this is the first episode where rick kills a living person which i think we

[01:30:51] we gathered while in the bar describing how they came down from philly dave says there was some

[01:30:56] kind of safe zone near dc but they couldn't get close enough this could be a reference to the

[01:31:01] alexandria safe zone the group gets two three seasons later he also mentions a train yard which

[01:31:06] could be a reference to terminus there you go god he took so much from that episode potentially

[01:31:12] this um i think we spoke about this last week jason but for nebraska again

[01:31:17] rick kills two living humans the first one dies with a headshot while the other one gets shot

[01:31:21] through the heart peter peter people may ask why rick shot the second guy again in the head

[01:31:27] that's because at this point rick already knew they are all infected for trigger finger

[01:31:32] glenn and herschel like what do you why'd you do that just wasting bullets

[01:31:37] herschel's like am i drunk or did he just shoot that guy twice

[01:31:40] both um trigger finger first time herschel starts calling the undead walkers i'm really

[01:31:47] annoyed that we didn't catch the second one this is the first episode in which darryl begins

[01:31:51] regularly wearing his iconic leather vest with wing patches on the back he briefly wore it in

[01:31:56] the second season premiere but takes off before joining the search for sofia and it isn't seen

[01:32:00] again until this episode it is now a series regular so um this one was phrased weird when glenn shoots

[01:32:08] at the door the handle turns moments before showing an a so there must be an a visible

[01:32:14] somewhere in that episode oh my god i need to go back and re-watch that it's because gimpel's

[01:32:19] involved yeah and for this episode 18 miles out director ernest dickerson said it was a struggle

[01:32:24] to prevent john bernthal and andrew lincoln from doing their own stunts on it um during the scene

[01:32:31] where shane breaks the window and releases all the zombies the last zombie who walks out and looks

[01:32:35] at rick is one of the makeup artists who also plays the zombie walking through the field i

[01:32:39] wonder if that's greg nicotero and this was before people knew who he was um the fight scene took four

[01:32:46] days to shoot and this final one's a bit comic book spoilery but i think we'll probably pass

[01:32:51] it now but skip 30 seconds if you don't want to hear it when beth proposes to maggie that they

[01:32:56] commit mutual suicide and the commit is a quote from indb this is actually a nod to the graphic

[01:33:01] novel tyrese is originally introduced between the quarry camp and the greens farm tyrese has a

[01:33:07] daughter not a sister and her boyfriend in tow it is revealed that the two teens have a suicide

[01:33:12] pact which they eventually commit in prison tyrese's daughter dies the boyfriend does not

[01:33:17] when tyrese finds the boy alive he strangles him when the boy turns that is how the graphic novel

[01:33:22] realizes that everyone is infected and turns unless a head wound is involved so a bit of comic

[01:33:29] so you can see how cheery the comic is yeah yeah and that is not the most depressing thing

[01:33:36] that's like fairly late it's not other stuff yeah and there's there's uh one issue in particular

[01:33:42] that's worse than anything anywhere else on the show oh yeah even worse than the

[01:33:49] grace episode and fear the walking dead yeah

[01:33:55] that's it that's it so only on the walking dead only on the walking dead would someone tricking

[01:34:04] someone into letting her keep watch over her suicidal sister and then leaving her alone

[01:34:09] and then that person almost but not quite killing herself and another guy almost but not quite

[01:34:14] killing the leader of the group all be considered just a little drama flare up in the group where

[01:34:18] they're all like yeah that actually turned out fine right we're fine only on the walking dead

[01:34:26] would the your high school yearbook be your death sentence oh i don't i don't accept that i think

[01:34:35] there are many instances where your high school yearbook might be your death sentence

[01:35:14] obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens the people it kills get up and tip are they

[01:35:19] slow moving chief yeah they're dead they're all messed up this is a walking dead cast news update

[01:35:28] just a couple quick things uh this one is great for everyone in the uk british broadcaster sky

[01:35:35] announced that all 11 seasons of the walking dead and the walking dead dead city the walking dead

[01:35:42] daryl dixon and the ones who live are going to be released exclusively on sky and the streaming

[01:35:48] service now so all 177 episodes of the original series are going to be on sky and now starting

[01:35:55] may 19th that's coming up quick might already be passed depending on when you're listening to this

[01:36:00] and the ones who live will be may 31st and then dead city and daryl dixon will come later this

[01:36:06] year sometime so for some reason they're doing the ones who live first and dead city daryl dixon

[01:36:11] later it didn't say anything about fear fear no maybe they're like no that's all right we don't

[01:36:17] we don't need that so that's that's cool like i know a lot of people couldn't watch it or had to

[01:36:23] go off and find it somewhere else so it's going to be available officially excellent and then the

[01:36:29] only other thing is that the last of us season two has been filming for a little while and there's

[01:36:36] images starting to come out with ellie and joel and some of the other characters dina who if you

[01:36:41] played the second game you know she's a big character so it's exciting and i think it's

[01:36:45] scheduled to come out early next year to premiere sooner than expected yeah yeah that's yay yay

[01:36:54] all right let's move on to listen to moans groans and grunts

[01:36:57] uh

[01:37:02] renee you want to go first yes michael costca says andrea is the worst

[01:37:10] michael put a lot of o's in worst amazing heather martin says did you pass out on rick again

[01:37:17] i think is that referring to the zombies passing i think so yeah yeah yeah yeah love it penny

[01:37:23] lennox says this episode really stands out in my memory for having some of the best and most

[01:37:27] stressful zombie action also at this point in the second half of the season two i wasn't

[01:37:32] completely tired of the randall storyline yet so i was still able to care whether or not he lived or

[01:37:38] died and the shane versus rick tension was fantastic and still pretty fresh yeah it was

[01:37:44] i i didn't really stress enough that i thought that fight was so thrilling and awful at the same time

[01:37:50] yes dray mononi says shane showed his true colors to rick this episode and rick continued to turn the

[01:37:58] other cheek so much of what comes next is because rick doesn't want to believe shane

[01:38:03] but denial only takes him so far but that's a different episode really loved this one since

[01:38:09] we got more zeds and some close calls lots of tension that moves the story along for rick

[01:38:15] lots of tension that moves the story along for rick and shane's dynamic

[01:38:20] i totally agree with that yeah he ricks really just sort of in denial our friend karen she says

[01:38:28] didn't have the chance to rewatch the episode but just wanted to say that i'm excited to hear arch

[01:38:32] mr renny's thoughts i love the zed head show jason did with renny about their favorite sci-fi books

[01:38:38] thanks for the coverage everyone ps oh yeah this is the episode where the men fight with their fists

[01:38:43] and the women fight with their tongues tension everywhere and don't kill yourself also don't

[01:38:48] kill yourself doodle bug context matters and the finality of suicide made it too great a risk for

[01:38:53] beth to simply test her metal the men also fight with their tongues so i think they do the women

[01:39:01] should have also fought with their fists that would have been great thank you for the nice

[01:39:07] words karen oh yeah that's nice yeah love karen billy thompson says hello hello such a classic

[01:39:15] episode this week that first conversation between rick and shane really amplifies what you guys said

[01:39:19] last week about shane still being a little boy he doesn't know where to look it's like a child

[01:39:24] being told off but such good acting from bernthal the walkers seem to have a lot more character in

[01:39:30] the earlier seasons because everything else everything is less decayed than the later seasons

[01:39:34] which is refreshing to see during the rewatch i agree i think the walkers are better looking than

[01:39:40] i remembered them i feel like over time maybe the makeup people got tired there would always be some

[01:39:50] really great hero ones but i think even on fear it just looked like they had masks on sometimes

[01:39:56] anyway billy goes on another episode another character i'm done with god i can't stay in

[01:40:00] andrea but i've got to love randall's enthusiasm driving the infamous hyundai with a tape around

[01:40:06] his neck and half a leg i think randall would have been fine if he were to join the group thanks guys

[01:40:14] carly jackson says i kept meaning to post a defense of lori in the last episode but didn't

[01:40:20] get to it i just want to point out that shane assaulted her at the cdc so i can empathize

[01:40:26] with her acting out of fear instead of using her head the last two episodes also that conversation

[01:40:32] with rick is brilliant she's trying to communicate her fear of shane and rick just isn't getting it

[01:40:38] until the end yeah good point carly then in this episode lori really is terrible she gives terrible

[01:40:45] non-advice to maggie and then gets defensive when andrea points out how much she still has

[01:40:51] andrea is also terrible in this episode i love the zombies in this episode but i wish the story was

[01:40:57] moving along more quickly yeah i'm really excited about next episode because we get a juicy

[01:41:02] philosophical discussion it is slow as hell this season i gotta say it is you know i went back and

[01:41:10] just looked at the comic because i didn't remember randall being a character in the comic but i wasn't

[01:41:15] sure so i went back and you know this whole season which goes on and on is about like three

[01:41:20] pages in the comics yeah they're just constant arguing about the same things over and over again

[01:41:25] and escalates escalates escalates right um danielle de mente jost says i love the conversation rick has

[01:41:32] with shane in the road some truths being told except shane saying he didn't look at lori before

[01:41:37] the world fell he implied otherwise to lori last episode when he said their affair was

[01:41:42] a long time coming rick really stepped up as a leader with shane in this episode i loved him

[01:41:47] teaching shane how to pin walkers against the chain link fence and stab them in the head

[01:41:52] the undercurrent of helpless women and big strong men in this episode is just cringy

[01:41:57] lori talking about how andrea isn't needed to help protect camp and later beth talking to maggie

[01:42:01] about how she maggie and patricia have only herschel and jimmy to keep them safe good point

[01:42:06] danielle the action in this episode is great and i remember really thinking shane was going to

[01:42:11] leave shane behind in that bus kind of wish he had rick was always too good for shane

[01:42:17] you said shane was going to leave shane behind but it was rick was going to leave oh rick rick

[01:42:22] was going to shane left himself behind on the bus sorry danielle rick was going to leave shane

[01:42:28] behind on the bus great danielle andy fisher says dear jnl oy 18 miles out is not an episode that i

[01:42:37] enjoyed re-watching even with the terrific zombie skirmishes the let's save randall storyline is a

[01:42:42] little silly as is rick putting up with shane's bullshit and treachery over and over however i

[01:42:47] enjoyed how rick's mind changed over the course of the show here in the second season he did

[01:42:52] almost everything he could to save randall but as the show went on rick and other characters

[01:42:56] became much less forgiving of outsiders and threats and after being betrayed at terminus

[01:43:01] the debate was over fresh out of sweet forgiveness forgiveness is a theme that continues throughout

[01:43:06] the show in the final episode of the savior's war rick makes the decision not to kill negan

[01:43:11] was this forgiveness revenge military strategy only on the walking dead oh i i'll get to that

[01:43:18] but i mean i think that was about trying to start a civilization and to be civilized so to imprison

[01:43:28] him rather than kill him but i also if i remember right i think it was a response to carl's letter

[01:43:34] to rick saying that we need to bring these people in and really i think that time period

[01:43:41] was when rick started to come back from being so dark and reactive all the time

[01:43:48] but he goes on only on the walking dead would you ride home and make nice in the car of a

[01:43:53] man that just tried to murder you over and over thank you for the wonderful podcast

[01:43:58] and be so happy about it he's really pleased

[01:44:04] rachel teal edwards says every time i see an open field bordered by trees i imagine a walker in the

[01:44:11] field ambling towards the road and i think of this episode in case you wondered how pervasive

[01:44:17] this show is in my consciousness this is such a good episode i think both storylines are equally

[01:44:25] as enthralling and the contrast between them is so jarring i think beth wanting to end her life

[01:44:32] after a seriously traumatic event in which she was suddenly made aware that the world has ended

[01:44:37] and only absolute horror remains is a totally understandable response asking your sister to do

[01:44:44] it with you not so reasonable and not a single woman responded reasonably either after thinking

[01:44:51] about the way the women are written in this episode i actually went online to find out if

[01:44:56] gimpel is divorced parentheses he's not lori andrea and maggie all had fair points and if they'd

[01:45:06] talked about it sorry if they'd talked it out before emotionally reacting and projecting all

[01:45:11] of their own shit onto beth they might have come up with a decent way to handle the situation

[01:45:17] andrea yes if beth wants to do it badly enough she'll find a way that doesn't mean you give her

[01:45:23] a knife and tell her to have at it aside from that absurdity andrea actually has the most reasonable

[01:45:28] response beth does have to figure out for herself that life is worth living you can't babysit her

[01:45:35] until she changes her mind lori and believe it or not maggie yelling at and belittling her isn't

[01:45:41] going to help either andrea should have stuck with the making room for the pain concept and

[01:45:47] maybe took some more time to empathize with beth and share her own story instead of just walking

[01:45:53] away wow what a good idea that is to to have andrea actually talk with beth about her own feelings

[01:46:01] yeah basically everyone fucked up and luckily when beth attempted she realized she was fucking up too

[01:46:09] on a positive note i appreciate the depth of character this story started to create for beth

[01:46:15] who ends up being so strong and capable yeah this yeah this show has a lot of fuck-ups

[01:46:24] um yeah that oh that reminded me i forgot to say about um beth when she you know decided not to

[01:46:34] kill herself and i was thinking about what happened to the rest of her life you know did

[01:46:43] she end up doing anything that would be worth living on for at least a little while in her

[01:46:47] probably you know the way she felt about it and so i you know looked up what happened with the

[01:46:51] rest of her character a couple moments like when she sings beautifully at the prison to boost morale

[01:46:56] she helped her shell with his recovery after he lost his leg she helped take care of baby judith

[01:47:03] she had a boyfriend for a while zach from woodbury who moved into the prison

[01:47:07] she became good friends with daryl and bonded with him and probably had a crush on him i'm not sure

[01:47:12] so there's all that stuff then she got kidnapped and had a horrible time there and then ended up

[01:47:16] dying in such a stupid way with this accidental shooting she must i was thinking about this she

[01:47:22] must be dead within a year of this episode if not long after well when we get there you'll tell

[01:47:29] us on the timeline lucy i will that's right i'll be tuning in i'll be like hey ironically beth lived

[01:47:37] after this date yeah one more thing i want you reminded me of uh rachel too is andrea's

[01:47:47] andrea's arguing we gotta let her make that decision and there is still just a part of me

[01:47:53] that's like andrea if it wasn't for dale you would be dead i can't help but have that thought like

[01:48:00] maybe there's at least a little part of you that should be thankful that you've had the

[01:48:05] because now you're choosing life and you wouldn't have had the opportunity to choose that

[01:48:10] i know a lot of people don't agree with that but that's what comes out of me

[01:48:13] and so to just sort of make it really easy for beth to go ahead and do it right at this moment

[01:48:19] of trauma after she had her own reprieve and got to live her life i feel so critical of her

[01:48:26] but it's funny when you think about the timeline andrea the cdc is what a week ago like it's it's

[01:48:32] nuts that andrea is as together as she is in this episode actually when you think about it it's like

[01:48:38] bloody hell amy's not even being dead at fortnight that's a good point now maybe that

[01:48:44] means we should give andrea a little more grace to given what she's i mean maybe now

[01:48:48] now that you've said that i hate it forget i said anything that's a ticket

[01:48:53] okay we got a call from steve brown hello jason and lucy this is steve and we now return you

[01:49:00] to your hopefully regularly scheduled live steves this one's for 18 miles out is this walker chasing

[01:49:06] rick in a freddy cougar sweater cougar no it's a button up just to me we're still in the kind of

[01:49:11] that phase of where they're not exactly great at killing walkers yet so i can understand them

[01:49:17] getting into this predicament but i don't remember it i had to pause it because rick just called it

[01:49:21] my baby so i don't believe shane for a minute he was just waiting for his chance to get to lori

[01:49:28] i was so stupid i missed the mic drop moment when shane said 18 miles out

[01:49:32] seems like little knives to be crushing into people's skulls oh you done just messed up you

[01:49:37] said you went to school with maggie so he already knows where the farm is i think it's interesting

[01:49:41] that they didn't even acknowledge the fact that i think those two walkers they killed were police

[01:49:45] officers right that scene of the walkers coming out of the the building different from the cold

[01:49:51] open because it seemed different and like randall was already was still crawling towards the knife

[01:49:55] in the cold open but yet he had the knife in this did they reshoot that whole scene and we're back

[01:49:59] to lori being just totally the feminist right oh the woman should do the laundry and clean let the

[01:50:08] men protect us you don't need the men to protect you and of course andrew is not completely right

[01:50:12] either so i mean there's two sides to everything right oh that was a cool effect though that's

[01:50:18] sticking the gun in the walker's mouth and then shooting other walkers through his head

[01:50:24] wow i forgot how fractured they all were before they grew as a family together

[01:50:29] in this scene with emily kenney and lauren going oh so good oh and rick comes riding out of nowhere

[01:50:37] like clint eastwood coming back to save a friend well we'll see how long this piece between

[01:50:43] rick and shane lasts i don't remember and we're on to next week uh i think it doesn't last at all

[01:50:51] yeah i think it's yeah it's pretty much over right now all right that is our show episode 581

[01:51:04] thanks so much for listening everybody as always thank you renee for coming on i'm so glad you want

[01:51:09] to come on thank you for having me on yeah absolutely uh next episode is the walking

[01:51:15] dead season 2 episode 11 judge jury executioner if you want to write in or leave us a voice message

[01:51:22] about it you can find all our contact details at you can find all our contact information at

[01:51:28] podcastica.com details is fine no it's wrong it's wrong and while you're there please check out our

[01:51:39] other podcasts like go back in preparation for house of the dragon and listen to dragon cast

[01:51:46] where you will hear renee talk a lot about how the book what is it called fire and blood fire

[01:51:54] and blood relates to the show and you can get ready for season two which is coming up real soon

[01:52:00] renee i read so i've not read fire and blood but i read a collection called dangerous women

[01:52:06] which has like a truncated version of it in it the princess and the queen yes is it still pretty

[01:52:12] accurate like the princess and the queen cool yes yeah when i was watching it i was like i think i

[01:52:17] read that but you've not read fire and blood it's great i'm very excited it's coming back

[01:52:23] yeah there are two pieces of fire and blood that were published separately the princess and the

[01:52:27] queen in dangerous women and then the rogue prince um in another anthology and the rogue

[01:52:34] princess of course damon interesting cool cool i want to mention this episode is made possible by

[01:52:42] patreon supporters like mariah mueller who's pledged who pledged their support at patreon.com

[01:52:48] slash jason cabassi so thank you to mariah uh we're lucy and i started this new uh what would

[01:52:55] you call it i don't know segment little short podcast called tangent time and uh we're about

[01:53:00] to record another one on shows that we've been watching that podcast is not podcasting about so

[01:53:06] if you pledge at patreon you can hear that and renny's gonna guest with us on that one

[01:53:13] all right that is our show thanks for listening don't get bit draymanoni gender