582: "Judge, Jury, Executioner" (TWD S2E11 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Tell me this isn't all the ammo.

[00:00:12] You're a civil rights lawyer.

[00:00:14] Was.

[00:00:15] You fight with words, the power of ideas.

[00:00:19] Use it on a gun, that's his way.

[00:00:22] You really want to debate about saving a guy who will lead his buddies right to our door?

[00:00:26] That's what a civilized society does.

[00:00:28] Who says we're civilized anymore?

[00:00:30] Oh, the world we know is gone.

[00:00:35] But keeping our humanity?

[00:00:37] That's a choice.

[00:00:38] The Cast of Us, a podcast dedicated to the show.

[00:01:01] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:12] I am Jason.

[00:01:14] And I am Judge Jurian Executioner.

[00:01:16] No I'm losing.

[00:01:17] And we're going to kill a boy.

[00:01:18] Kill the boy.

[00:01:19] This is The Cast of Us, episode 582.

[00:01:24] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, season two, episode 11.

[00:01:28] Rick Grimes, your son is a psycho.

[00:01:30] No, Judge Jurian Executioner.

[00:01:32] I just thought, I couldn't help but think of Emperor Palpatine.

[00:01:36] Do it!

[00:01:37] Do it dad, do it!

[00:01:41] I was watching it on the sofa and our kitchen leads right into the living room and Peter

[00:01:46] was cooking.

[00:01:47] I thought he had his headphones in, but as soon as he heard, do it dad, do it, he leaned

[00:01:50] through and just went, bloody hell!

[00:01:52] I was like, yeah, this is Carl's little Anakin era.

[00:01:56] Yeah, it's this creepy phase.

[00:01:59] So creepy.

[00:02:01] So creepy.

[00:02:02] I realized something about it though that I hadn't before.

[00:02:07] It might be a little bit of a stretch, but anyway, I got something a little more out

[00:02:09] of it than normal.

[00:02:11] Amazing.

[00:02:12] So let's get into it.

[00:02:14] Season two, episode 11, Judge Jurian Executioner.

[00:02:16] What did you think?

[00:02:17] I liked it.

[00:02:18] I liked it.

[00:02:19] Do you know, I listened, so I was traveling this week and I listened to an episode of

[00:02:23] John Bernthal's podcast.

[00:02:24] I can't remember what it's called.

[00:02:25] I want to say Hot Ones, but I think that's the chicken wing challenge.

[00:02:32] It's John Bernthal's podcast, Real Ones, that's it.

[00:02:36] With Sarah Wayne Callies and they spoke a lot about their time on The Walking Dead together.

[00:02:40] I really recommend listening to it.

[00:02:42] They both, it's a really interesting podcast, but they spoke specifically about the context

[00:02:48] of this episode with Darabont being fired and Glenn Mazar coming onto the show and themselves

[00:02:56] and Jeffrey DeMunn having spoken up in favor of Frank Darabont saying don't fire him, but

[00:03:01] not having the rest of the crew behind them.

[00:03:04] And it's clear that Sarah Wayne Callies really thinks that's why all three of them got killed

[00:03:07] off.

[00:03:09] I think it might be why Jeffrey DeMunn got killed off, but I do think that Laurie and

[00:03:12] Shane were killed off because of story rather than support.

[00:03:15] DeMunn left.

[00:03:16] Yeah, DeMunn wanted out, didn't he?

[00:03:19] Because of Darabont.

[00:03:22] Because he and Darabont were really tight and he's in a bunch of Darabont movies and

[00:03:27] he's, I was on a panel with him.

[00:03:29] It was the same panel where Laurie Holden was complaining a lot about how she left the

[00:03:35] show and it got into the news and everything.

[00:03:37] So I was like, oh, one of my panels in the news.

[00:03:39] That's cool.

[00:03:40] Oh, I remember that.

[00:03:41] I was like, I know that guy.

[00:03:42] So it was interesting to watch it with that lens.

[00:03:44] He said that he left because of Darabont.

[00:03:47] Interesting because I find it fascinating to watch through that lens of like, oh, there

[00:03:51] was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes at this point.

[00:03:54] Yeah.

[00:03:55] And it's a goodbye to Dale, short and sweet.

[00:03:58] Our time with him has been felt very brief.

[00:04:01] How did you find it?

[00:04:03] I think it's a great episode too.

[00:04:07] It's Dale's swan song and that's kind of what I enjoyed is I was so mad when I first watched

[00:04:16] this that everyone was for killing Randall except for Dale.

[00:04:23] And I didn't know how I was going to feel coming to it 12 years later.

[00:04:28] And I feel the same.

[00:04:29] I'm like, fuck you guys.

[00:04:33] So it was really fun.

[00:04:36] It's an annoying episode because of that, but it kind of leaves me feeling crappy.

[00:04:43] But I also enjoy it because I liked watching Dale do his thing and it's just good drama,

[00:04:50] you know, all the way around like for every character.

[00:04:54] So I don't know.

[00:04:55] So would you still have not killed Randall?

[00:04:58] Would you still have kept him prisoner or?

[00:05:01] Knowing what they know at this point, I would not kill Randall.

[00:05:07] Now I think Randall says something next time that is a real like, okay, you're actually

[00:05:14] a fucker.

[00:05:16] Then I might be more likely to go along with it.

[00:05:20] But at this point, I think everything that Randall has shown is that the jury is out

[00:05:26] on Randall and with the jury being out, I could not condone killing another human being like

[00:05:32] that.

[00:05:33] I would at least wait around a while and just see how things shook out, make sure he's secure.

[00:05:37] Yeah.

[00:05:38] Yeah.

[00:05:39] I'm kind of with you on that.

[00:05:41] I think as well.

[00:05:43] It makes the decision to keep Negan prisoner a bit more baffling looking back on this episode.

[00:05:47] I'm like, oh, well, if I was Randall, I'd be looking up or down and saying, hey, that

[00:05:52] guy, that guy gets to live.

[00:05:55] They brought saviors in their group.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:06:00] I mean, I think that is actually indicative of the moral arc of The Walking Dead.

[00:06:08] I think it's actually good storytelling because it's a story if kind of Rick is the protagonist

[00:06:15] and he's a man who was changed by this horrible thing that happened to the planet and the

[00:06:22] planet was changed.

[00:06:24] And as they're talking about in this episode, are we, Dale's like, if we do this, we're

[00:06:29] not who we were anymore.

[00:06:30] And it's a different world.

[00:06:32] And they're like, yeah, that's right, Dale.

[00:06:33] We're not who we were.

[00:06:34] It is a different world.

[00:06:35] But I think by the end of The Walking Dead, they're like, no, we are who we were.

[00:06:39] We can't give up on love.

[00:06:40] That's what Michonne is saying.

[00:06:41] You know, she's talking about her loved ones, but it's also about compassion in I'm going

[00:06:47] to spoil one thing in the ones who live.

[00:06:49] Rick and Michonne come upon a group of people.

[00:06:52] They offer these people food and in turn, the people try to kill them and steal everything

[00:06:55] from them.

[00:06:56] And Rick Michonne allow them to live.

[00:06:58] And that's because Rick at this point, he's gone to the dark side.

[00:07:04] And then as I've talked about before, I think even during the rewatch when Carl died and

[00:07:08] left him that letter that said every life is worth something.

[00:07:11] You got to bring the saviors in, you know, let's not make, let's keep the good things

[00:07:15] of the world that were from before.

[00:07:17] And so I think that's the story of The Walking Dead, how they came back to reclaiming their

[00:07:23] humanity.

[00:07:24] But here's where they're losing it.

[00:07:25] Imagine how the show would have been if Carl's final layer had just said, do it dad.

[00:07:31] Yeah, do it.

[00:07:32] Yeah.

[00:07:33] Because it's interesting, like in this episode, it's Carl who is he's the reason why Rick

[00:07:40] reconsiders but it's in reaction to Carl becoming cutthroat, right?

[00:07:44] Later on Carl's death and writing that beautiful letter is what all same thing turns Rick into

[00:07:51] a more compassionate person.

[00:07:52] But that's at the direct urging of Carl.

[00:07:56] But it's all about wanting to do be a good father for Carl, even posthumously.

[00:08:00] Yeah, it's a nice bookend that I think to Carl's story.

[00:08:05] I did think of that when Shane says quit trying to get yourself killed.

[00:08:08] I'm like, oh, he does get himself killed.

[00:08:11] I know.

[00:08:12] Yeah, tragic.

[00:08:13] Okay, let's get into it.

[00:08:16] What are your first thoughts?

[00:08:20] So this is kind of a turning point for Daryl this episode.

[00:08:25] I'd sort of forgotten.

[00:08:26] I remembered I was uncomfortable coming into this one because I remembered that Daryl is

[00:08:31] essentially the torturer and that makes me uncomfortable for a number of reasons.

[00:08:36] I do maintain we spoke about this on the Daryl Dixon show because there's a similar scene

[00:08:41] in the first season of Daryl Dixon.

[00:08:44] Daryl being a bit more into it in the scene that we see in Daryl Dixon or a bit more powerful

[00:08:50] with it and a bit more like he's telling a little story as he is doing the violence.

[00:08:56] Yeah, like that makes this look like child's play.

[00:09:00] The Daryl show.

[00:09:02] That's another spoiler but fucking A.

[00:09:04] Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:05] And it was it felt more naturalistic in that.

[00:09:08] So he gets a story out of Randall and he's quite sickened I think by what Randall tells

[00:09:14] him he is approached later by Dale about that.

[00:09:20] I've got a whole other point about Dale and democracy but there's this scene between Dale

[00:09:24] and Daryl where Dale comes over and Daryl says the whole point of coming up here is

[00:09:27] to get away from you people that Carol send you.

[00:09:30] And we see a couple of things about Daryl.

[00:09:32] We see that he is super perceptive like he figured out on his own that Otis was killed.

[00:09:38] He's like it wasn't hard to figure out.

[00:09:40] Shane came back with another guy's gun.

[00:09:42] He told me a story.

[00:09:43] It wasn't very convincing.

[00:09:44] He said yeah that he said this guy covered him but he had his gun so and it's so funny

[00:09:50] that Daryl's just been sitting on that like yeah.

[00:09:52] A part of Daryl is just like I don't want any drama.

[00:09:57] I don't care.

[00:09:58] Dale's like oh.

[00:09:59] All right.

[00:10:00] Exactly.

[00:10:01] And this is I think this is where the shift in Daryl really starts to kind of come to

[00:10:07] the fore because he says something really perceptive as well about Rick.

[00:10:10] He says if Rick didn't realize it's because he didn't want to and he's kind of right.

[00:10:14] There's a lot about Shane that Rick willfully will ignore or willfully won't look at in

[00:10:19] a critical way because he views him as a brother.

[00:10:22] And yeah.

[00:10:23] It's obvious to Dale that the group is broken.

[00:10:27] But the big moment I think that shows Daryl his quality particularly compared to a guy

[00:10:33] like Shane is when he takes the gun from Rick and shoots Dale because he realizes that Rick

[00:10:38] can't do it and he just wordlessly takes the gun from him and says I'm sorry brother and

[00:10:43] shoots him and it's brutal but it's necessary and it is stepping up for Rick at a time where

[00:10:50] Rick is really struggling and Daryl's seen that.

[00:10:52] He saw in the barn with Randall.

[00:10:54] He sees it there in the field.

[00:10:56] Rick already had to kill Sophia.

[00:10:58] So it's like yeah exactly.

[00:11:02] Exactly and I just think that shows such a shift in the relationship between them and

[00:11:08] ironically I guess this is when Shane is about to leave the show and it sort of makes sense.

[00:11:13] And Daryl had said in this episode something about yeah like Dale was telling Daryl you're

[00:11:19] important and Rick looks to you and he goes Rick looks to Shane or something like that.

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:24] So this is sort of him stepping into that buddy role or starting to at least.

[00:11:28] And I just thought it was a really nice quiet part of this episode that was a good bit of

[00:11:31] character work was having Daryl be a part of these scenes like when they're taking

[00:11:35] Randall to the barn it's Rick, Daryl and Shane like he's starting to step into these positions.

[00:11:40] I find it uncomfortable still that the group to an extent are like well Daryl can beat

[00:11:45] the guy up and torture him because that's the kind of guy Daryl is.

[00:11:47] No one says it but it's implied and I do love that.

[00:11:52] The writers are like who should we have do it?

[00:11:54] Should we have Glenn?

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:56] Glenn would be crying.

[00:11:57] Glenn would literally come in.

[00:11:58] You're a good guy right?

[00:11:59] He's like you can hit me if you want.

[00:12:00] Yeah so I loved that.

[00:12:01] I thought that was a really strong part of this episode and one that I'd forgotten about.

[00:12:13] Cool.

[00:12:14] I just opening up with Daryl punching or torturing Randall, punching him, digging a knife into

[00:12:21] the wound in his leg.

[00:12:22] Awful.

[00:12:23] I'm like what are you trying to do here?

[00:12:28] And I was like what exactly are you trying to do?

[00:12:30] Because I thought they'd already kind of decided to kill Randall or no I guess Rick was going

[00:12:36] to take the night to decide.

[00:12:37] No Rick took him back yeah.

[00:12:39] It became clear just a little later that this is happening because Rick wanted to be able

[00:12:44] to assess the threat before he made a decision of what to do.

[00:12:47] And just when Daryl is walking out of the barn afterwards the other start asking Rick

[00:12:52] what the plan is for Randall and are you going to keep him there?

[00:12:55] And he goes well no soon enough because he knows as soon as Daryl gives him information.

[00:12:59] So the information that Daryl got was that Randall's part of a group of 30 men who are

[00:13:04] heavily armed and who will kill them and possibly rape the women first if they find them.

[00:13:11] And that was enough.

[00:13:12] So it seems like I had been thinking of whether the torture was to assess if Randall's a good

[00:13:18] person but I think they either think he's not or that it doesn't matter and really

[00:13:22] it's just to figure out what the threat is you know.

[00:13:25] And then that of course reminded me of what Daryl did on the Daryl show and later when

[00:13:32] Dale says to Daryl torturing people that isn't you.

[00:13:35] I'm like it kind of is Dale.

[00:13:37] He's capable of it.

[00:13:40] So then I just I had a point of this so I'm just going into it but Randall he is resisting

[00:13:46] telling the truth.

[00:13:48] I think when Daryl asks how many guys and he's like 30 and it almost seems like he just

[00:13:54] pulled that out of his ass but Daryl believed him and that's what he reported to Rick.

[00:14:00] But I think he's definitely just sort of been withholding and so that's a point against

[00:14:05] him.

[00:14:06] And then he says they have weapons and stuff heavy weapons automatics.

[00:14:10] I'm like why weren't you forthcoming with all that before but it could be because these

[00:14:14] he knows these guys will kill him if he gives up any information.

[00:14:18] It could just simply be that you know.

[00:14:20] But the part that disgusted me was Randall sitting there saying he's innocent like these

[00:14:26] people took me in.

[00:14:28] They're not just guys there's men and women there like you.

[00:14:31] I thought I'd have a better chance with them.

[00:14:33] That's totally plausible.

[00:14:35] And then he tells the story where just the men went out on this.

[00:14:38] What do you call it scavenging or whatever and they end up he sees them rape these girls

[00:14:45] of a farmer or something and that totally jives with what Tony in the bar saying he

[00:14:51] hasn't had a piece of ass in weeks.

[00:14:53] That's his quote not mine that that that's their MO right.

[00:14:59] And he says Randall says he wasn't a part of it and didn't do anything and Daryl kicks

[00:15:04] him and I'm like well you know if Randall did do that would he really be telling the

[00:15:10] story he might he might be that stupid.

[00:15:12] He probably is but I think in most cases if you did something like that and you're being

[00:15:18] tortured you would not bring it up.

[00:15:21] So I think the only reason like he's bringing it up is because this guy is asking him for

[00:15:25] information and it could very well be that he's just trying to tell him OK I'll tell

[00:15:30] you these are the kind of guys they are and he gets fucking kicked for it and then beaten

[00:15:35] and and you find out later Daryl didn't get any more information out of him versus what

[00:15:39] we already heard.

[00:15:40] So he's just brutally beating Randall when we see there at the end there and in Randall's

[00:15:47] if I was Randall and I was like I just told him something and now I'm being beaten up

[00:15:52] so I better not fucking tell him anything else because this is what I get for it you

[00:15:56] know I mean that just told that just disgusted me.

[00:15:59] Daryl doesn't know for sure what kind of a person Randall is and yet he's for no reason

[00:16:04] that I can see just brutally beating him.

[00:16:06] I'm like fuck you Daryl right there.

[00:16:08] I mean it's just one part of it you know I can't just write off Daryl as a character

[00:16:12] but that one scene I felt so angry at him.

[00:16:16] It's not great.

[00:16:17] It's really not great.

[00:16:18] If I was to play devil's advocate to quote Jason I wonder if it's the writer's attempt

[00:16:24] to show that like Daryl is so disgusted by the thought of what they did to those women

[00:16:28] that he's taking out his anger about it on Randall but I'm inclined to lean towards

[00:16:32] what you're saying and say that it's still gross.

[00:16:34] Yeah no I think it is but Daryl's presuming that Randall did take part in it and well

[00:16:40] if he knew that if he knew I mean he called him cute I don't think that has any bearing

[00:16:46] on it.

[00:16:47] If he does if you did know that Randall did it I would say you'd need to know 100% but

[00:16:56] Okay just to be charitable even if you thought it was probably true then I could be a lot

[00:17:00] more forgiving of Daryl for that but he doesn't know and the way that Randall delivered that

[00:17:05] line it was maybe a choice by the actor.

[00:17:07] He didn't say it like oh yeah they were cute he's just like cute girls you know I don't

[00:17:11] I thought he could have been just explaining why these guys did what they did or something

[00:17:18] I thought the way he said it was quite interesting because as he says it he's kind of searching

[00:17:22] Daryl's face a little bit and I don't know if he's I don't know if he's trying to read

[00:17:28] I was watching for that and I didn't see it but

[00:17:30] I thought he looked like he was trying to get a read on Daryl a little bit but I don't

[00:17:34] think to the extent that he's like does this guy seem like he'd be cool with sexual assault

[00:17:37] because obviously not but it is it is messy and it isn't the best light for Daryl to be

[00:17:43] seen in to be honest like what he does here isn't wonderful

[00:17:46] I think it's atrocious

[00:17:47] To say the least

[00:17:48] Yeah I think it's so bad

[00:17:51] Do you think he redeems himself later in the show?

[00:17:56] In the show absolutely I mean I that's a black stain on his character for me but I don't think

[00:18:05] about that when I think about Daryl anymore I mean I will now because it's fresh in my

[00:18:09] memory

[00:18:10] Yeah you're like everyday now

[00:18:11] But I don't when I see Daryl later on I don't think about that and I think Daryl is a hero

[00:18:17] and a really good person so I mean I could just write it off as oh yeah this was a mischaracterization

[00:18:28] but I don't think it is because look what we see him do in the Daryl show and I fucking

[00:18:31] hated that too

[00:18:32] Yeah we spoke about that didn't we?

[00:18:34] We were both like no

[00:18:36] Yeah but that seemed a little bit more I don't know almost farcical to the point it didn't

[00:18:43] quite get me as bad as this one did for some reason but it was pretty bad though

[00:18:49] I still love Daryl

[00:18:50] Hashtag love Daryl forever

[00:18:55] Alright you want to do a different one?

[00:18:59] Absolutely so my next point is another cute one Glennon Herschel

[00:19:03] So good

[00:19:04] You forgot the watch came out so early in the season in the show even I loved seeing

[00:19:12] well I got a bit annoyed at Beth being like a child in bed I'm like for god's sake you're

[00:19:16] 16 get up but whatever it was a sweet moment with Doodlebug and I like that Glenn is checking

[00:19:21] in on her because that shows a level of kind of care because I don't know if your new girlfriend's

[00:19:26] sister tried to die by suicide within a week of the two of you getting together like I

[00:19:30] mean would you check in?

[00:19:32] I don't know you might peace out

[00:19:36] A nice subtle scene Herschel asking Glenn where his family is from because that can obviously

[00:19:43] be quite a large microaggression of you know you're not really from here what's your race

[00:19:47] what's your background and you can sort of see Glenn he's heard this question before

[00:19:54] Ready for that yeah

[00:19:55] Michigan but Korea and Herschel kind of surprises in a way by saying immigrants built this country

[00:20:01] never forget that and sort of talks about his own immigrant history Maggie Green and the

[00:20:05] Irish side of the family I loved his story about his wife buying the watch back after

[00:20:11] he sold it on a night of drinking I no longer remember how that reminds him of Maggie she's

[00:20:16] very like her mum I couldn't deal with the line that you'll become a father someday I

[00:20:22] was like oh

[00:20:23] He said if you do

[00:20:26] I know but he never did because of me

[00:20:30] Yeah he sort of did

[00:20:31] Anyway anyway just every time all these scenes with Glenn each one feels like someone is

[00:20:39] stabbing me in the heart anyway he says you know you think no man will ever be good enough

[00:20:44] for your girl until one is going out before I change my mind about you and I just loved

[00:20:49] it it's a lovely scene Scott Wilson is just fantastic and I thought yeah they played

[00:20:54] the awkwardness and the sweetness of it just perfectly

[00:20:56] Uh-huh yeah it's very very touching and yeah I love how like asking you know where he's

[00:21:03] from and saying immigrants built this country never forget that our family came from Ireland

[00:21:07] and I think that's just sort of evidence for what I've been preaching lately which

[00:21:15] is that there are plenty of things that need changing and that need to be addressed you

[00:21:23] know and one of them is racism and also that I feel like we need to be careful about not

[00:21:34] calling something racism or sexism or whatever if it kind of looks like it to be really quick

[00:21:41] to jump on something like that is to sometimes call up a conflict that wouldn't have been

[00:21:46] there otherwise so like and then it weakens our position that we want these things to

[00:21:50] change I don't want any more racism but if you're calling things racism that aren't then

[00:21:54] people who might be persuaded to think about it will just be like oh you just say everything's

[00:21:58] racism and so in this case when like when Herschel is saying the Asian boy I see nothing

[00:22:05] wrong that it's just a descriptor maybe if Glenn's uncomfortable with it he could say

[00:22:09] something but from where Herschel's he's not saying anything about Glenn except I'm just

[00:22:15] figuring out a way to let you know I'm talking about you know and so in this case like just

[00:22:20] the fact that he goes out of his way to build some common ground like yeah we're the same

[00:22:25] I'm an immigrant I'm from an immigrant family and that is just beautiful to me so I loved

[00:22:32] it it's a love shows where his heart is you know yeah yeah and so if like if Glenn had

[00:22:37] been like you're a racist you called me an Asian boy then this moment probably never

[00:22:41] would have happened you know from Michigan you fucking racist like oh yeah exactly I

[00:22:48] do not like you says Herschel get out of my farm and then the watch like that still with

[00:22:55] Maggie and we talked about that a couple episodes ago but in Dead City I think she

[00:22:59] still has it one of the most iconic items of The Walking Dead I think that watch and

[00:23:06] yeah and Herschel saying no man is good enough for your daughter until one is I'm like oh

[00:23:10] my god and I think the thing with Glenn lately is that or always is he just doesn't see himself

[00:23:16] as worthy and I think Herschel's vote of confidence here is a huge thing for him he's finally

[00:23:23] realizing okay I guess I'm pretty good and he was so low after what happened at the bar

[00:23:30] that to see him get having been seen for his worth there is I think it's a really nice

[00:23:36] turn that he's goes from feeling like I did fuck all to like oh someone saw me and they

[00:23:42] see that I'm a good person and I'm good enough for Maggie I think that's just really lovely

[00:23:46] yes okay so my next one is the Randall dilemma I guess it's kind of the big swing so we already

[00:23:56] kind of covered it but with Dale like he's got sort of you could say high ideals but

[00:24:04] I don't want it to sound dismissive like oh you and your ideals but it's about whether

[00:24:09] whether they become but they lose their humanity they that life becomes like he said Darwinian

[00:24:16] killer be killed she first think later kill anything that seems like a threat or to try

[00:24:22] to keep our humanity and be civil which some people might think is a weak and assure way

[00:24:30] to get killed but in it's always my opinion that you need to come at things smartly but

[00:24:37] not viciously like that where because you their strength in numbers and also in the

[00:24:46] kinds of things that he's talking about fighting with words and creating rules that we live

[00:24:52] by and talking things over because that's what society is built on in the reason society

[00:24:57] was built in the first place is because before that it was just killer be killed and we were

[00:25:02] all hunter hunters and gatherers and there were no organization to anything and there

[00:25:07] was no development of civilization there were no arts it was just killer be killed

[00:25:12] and the only way to have good things is when we all work together and so anyway so the

[00:25:21] information that Darrell got was like I said Randall's people are dangerous and they might

[00:25:27] kill us and rich with heavy artillery not looking to make friends killing and raping

[00:25:33] and Rick decides that from that that Randall's a threat and they need to kill him no consideration

[00:25:38] for whether he was a bad guy himself or if he was loyal to their group or if he was just

[00:25:42] with them because their safety in numbers and Dale says there's got to be a process

[00:25:45] and he's automatically guilty by association and sentenced to death like that's what was

[00:25:50] my mind and then and I feel like it's kind of messed up that there's only one guy who

[00:25:55] thinks it's even worthwhile to talk about that then he says the world we know is gone

[00:26:00] but keeping our humanity that's a choice and I think that sounds kind of wishy-washy

[00:26:06] to some but I think he's right and that as I said before this is the main overarching

[00:26:10] theme of The Walking Dead as a show where in the end they decide to do things like jail

[00:26:15] Negan and instead of killing him and be you know less just murdery basically in general

[00:26:26] and so I had approached this whole thing just trying to figure out myself what to do as

[00:26:32] the jury being out on Randall at this point but even let's say the jury is in that Darrell's

[00:26:39] a good judge character he knows Randall's a bad guy then I'm like well what about the

[00:26:43] possibility of redemption I thought they didn't keep him around because they didn't have a

[00:26:49] secure place to hold him but their argument for not keeping him around is that he'd be

[00:26:53] another mouth to feed but he's a person like anybody and as Carl says years later every

[00:26:58] life is worth something.

[00:26:59] I got quite pissed off at Laurie in that scene because you know Rick makes this big deal

[00:27:04] of saying like I know you're against the death penalty you know blah blah blah and then someone

[00:27:09] you know they're suggesting these things that she just kind of goes I wouldn't feel safe

[00:27:12] unless he was locked up and I'm like Laurie you're not helping.

[00:27:15] You're not helping.

[00:27:17] Like yeah I don't know that annoyed me.

[00:27:20] And even for the sake of argument he's a bad guy let's say he can't be redeemed it's just

[00:27:25] not an option if he gets out he's going to go to his people and they'll come back and

[00:27:29] kill everyone if you know that's the likely outcome then I guess killing him is the right

[00:27:37] thing it's just like with Otis it's either you if it's either we die or Randall dies

[00:27:43] that Randall clearly has to die if you know that for sure or you risk or you leave the

[00:27:49] farm but I think like I said at the top they should at least spend some time with him first

[00:27:55] and feel out the situation he brings the saviors in later.

[00:28:00] I mean he's he's clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed that's the one thing I think

[00:28:05] we can say about Randall is he's not the smartest tool in the shed.

[00:28:10] Or he's just freaking out and losing his shit.

[00:28:13] He's not he's hardly a criminal mastermind is he like yeah.

[00:28:17] Yeah no he's not smart he says dumb things for sure just saying he knew Maggie would

[00:28:22] go as his death sentence.

[00:28:24] He cracked me up when he said to Carl he's like oh your dad's the sheriff I like him

[00:28:29] I'm like go for a believable lie you obviously don't like him.

[00:28:32] Meanwhile Carl's just staring at him like he's possessed by the devil or something.

[00:28:40] And then I just thought killing Randall because you know as we know Shane kills him next week

[00:28:45] or if they would have even killed him this night it ended up being nothing because like

[00:28:50] the next day the zombies come and drive everyone off the farm anyway so they have nothing to

[00:28:55] protect from Randall's people anymore.

[00:28:59] Well if we go down that road though the zombies come because of the gunshot of Carl shooting

[00:29:04] Shane which comes because Shane and Rick have a confrontation about Randall.

[00:29:08] So if Shane hadn't killed Randall the farm might never have been run over.

[00:29:16] I might eat my words when I re-watch the episode and realize I remember it wrong.

[00:29:19] I forgot I totally forgot.

[00:29:21] So a year after this episode aired or so I interviewed Angela King and I asked her about

[00:29:28] it.

[00:29:29] So I have a couple of just two clips one from Angela King one from Glenn Mazzara.

[00:29:33] So here's Angela King talking about it.

[00:29:36] One episode in particular that you wrote Judge Jury Executioner from season two which is

[00:29:42] the one where they were deciding whether or not to kill Randall.

[00:29:46] I was heartbroken because I really was on Dale's side and nobody else was and not even

[00:29:52] Glenn.

[00:29:53] I was like oh God.

[00:29:56] And so I wonder if you like I'm just curious to know if you personally came down on either

[00:30:03] one of the sides in that debate.

[00:30:10] I think you mean like whether or not they should have killed him or not.

[00:30:14] Yeah.

[00:30:17] If you don't want to say it's okay.

[00:30:19] Well I don't mind saying actually like I you know like I don't know if I should or not

[00:30:26] but it's I I probably like personally am more of Dale's point of view.

[00:30:33] Wow.

[00:30:34] You know that that maybe there's you know that you want to try to hold on to some humanity

[00:30:40] and some order and that you know like me as a person I'm a little wary of like vigilante

[00:30:46] justice but me as a writer of the characters sometimes that is the right point of view

[00:30:51] of the character you know.

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] It's really interesting to hear you say that because after I watched that episode I was

[00:30:58] so mad at everybody for turning on Dale and I'm like who wrote that.

[00:31:04] So I just thought that was interesting that she took that view but in my memory I had

[00:31:09] asked her were Randall's people really bad and I was like oh I listened back no I didn't

[00:31:18] ask you that I asked Glenn Mazar that in another interview and that's much shorter but I'm

[00:31:24] going to play that.

[00:31:26] He was a showrunner at the time so.

[00:31:28] Okay.

[00:31:29] I've always been curious and I know you probably aren't going to answer this but I want to

[00:31:34] know if Randall's group was actually evil and would they have overrun the farm and

[00:31:38] killed everybody.

[00:31:41] Yeah I'm yeah I the way we talked about it was the Randall's group was was mostly men

[00:31:51] and they certainly would have been a threat you know.

[00:31:55] Yeah I'll answer that yeah.

[00:31:58] But what I wish I would have asked if I could go back in time is what about Randall himself

[00:32:02] I didn't think to ask that.

[00:32:04] Yeah we asked that.

[00:32:05] Idiots.

[00:32:06] Well here's the thing here's the thing so right okay you said something earlier that

[00:32:11] I thought was interesting about Randall whether he's a good or bad person and I think that

[00:32:14] on the page that does that matters a bit.

[00:32:19] But I think what they're assessing him as and what you kind of have to think about and

[00:32:24] again just to absolute avoidance of doubt I am not pro death penalty and I'm uncomfortable

[00:32:30] with the idea of people killing someone like Randall.

[00:32:33] I think what the group is coming up against.

[00:32:35] Yeah I think what the people in the group are coming up against though is not just whether

[00:32:40] Randall is good or bad.

[00:32:42] They're not that's in a way irrelevant.

[00:32:44] What they're assessing is is he a threat if he goes back to his group will he tell them

[00:32:48] where we are and what are his group like so in a way it doesn't matter whether or not

[00:32:52] Randall is good or bad.

[00:32:54] What matters is the connection to that larger group and how bad they are.

[00:33:00] It may be that Randall didn't do any of those things but if there is a chance that he's

[00:33:04] going to go back and spill where they are that has to take precedence over whether or

[00:33:08] not he's a good or bad person.

[00:33:10] Yeah I mean that's kind of what I was just saying like if it's very likely that he's

[00:33:15] going to get away and go to them and then they're going to come back and kill everybody

[00:33:20] that's kind of like with Otis and Shane where one of them where Shane kind of had to do

[00:33:26] what he did or else they both would have died.

[00:33:30] And so so then I think yes but I just don't see it as like at the very least they could

[00:33:44] spend some more time with him and see if he's the kind of guy they could integrate into

[00:33:49] their group or something or just like Andrea I had forgotten she actually came down on

[00:33:54] Dale's side at the end.

[00:33:55] Yeah we should take some more time just take some more time to think about it like they

[00:33:59] said maybe we could drive him out even further.

[00:34:01] Oh well he almost got killed last time.

[00:34:03] Bullshit.

[00:34:04] There's nobody anywhere.

[00:34:05] Laurie is a pain in the ass in this episode.

[00:34:08] I'm sorry but she is.

[00:34:09] She's like it's just a dumb excuse.

[00:34:11] The writers couldn't think of a better excuse I feel like because yeah you can drive him

[00:34:15] out further but maybe also someone else could drive him like I don't yeah I find that really

[00:34:21] annoying.

[00:34:22] Laurie drive him that'll take care of it.

[00:34:23] That would be amazing.

[00:34:28] I mean get him to drive himself just tape him to the fucking seat again and be like

[00:34:37] drive as far as you want me.

[00:34:38] Put him in a Tesla.

[00:34:39] Put him in a Tesla.

[00:34:40] And punch in like California.

[00:34:41] Bye Randall.

[00:34:42] Sweet car man thanks.

[00:34:43] Like okay bye.

[00:34:44] No I mean you got to put the self-driving on and chain it and tie him up in there.

[00:34:54] Oh that's incredible we should do that.

[00:34:56] That would be hilarious.

[00:34:57] Oh man.

[00:34:58] Well I my thoughts about this are kind of more about democracy and Dale.

[00:35:08] One of the things I really liked about this episode was and in a way it's quite fitting

[00:35:13] for a final episode is that Dale gets a scene with everyone almost like he gets to go around

[00:35:21] the group and sort of talk to people.

[00:35:23] Didn't bother with Glenn which is kind of why it was a shock when Glenn.

[00:35:26] I know.

[00:35:27] He just presumed.

[00:35:28] Oh boy that that broke my heart and Glenn never really gets to sort of make that right

[00:35:32] with him and that really.

[00:35:34] Oh bless him.

[00:35:36] So he first of all chases after Rick and argues for process and he gets in Rick's head by

[00:35:41] saying think about your son.

[00:35:42] And I loved that in the background there was like a thunderstorm brewing.

[00:35:45] I was like he has a scene with Andrea that's fascinating where you see for the first time

[00:35:52] in a while Andrea's loyalty to Dale come out a little bit and she even manages to communicate

[00:35:58] that to Shane slightly someone who she's usually trying to impress slash flirt with.

[00:36:02] She does kind of not quite stick up for Dale I wouldn't go as far as that but she does

[00:36:07] say to Shane that you know she wouldn't let him do X Y and Z and that she would keep watch.

[00:36:13] And she's even in there saying get off of him when Shane burst in and pulls the gun

[00:36:17] up to his face.

[00:36:18] What I liked about that is I always remembered Andrea and Shane as being quite a one sided

[00:36:23] thing where Andrea just basically wanted to shag Shane.

[00:36:25] But in this I think it does bother Shane that she is loyal to Dale.

[00:36:28] I think there is part of him that enjoys her affection and I don't know again looking at

[00:36:33] the scene I'm like if Shane had lived I could really have seen the two of them being a couple

[00:36:38] successfully.

[00:36:39] I feel like yeah though it is it is still lopsided but I agree with you.

[00:36:45] It's lopsided but not as much as I recalled it being.

[00:36:50] We had confirmation again that Andrea was a civil rights lawyer and that is quite alarming

[00:36:55] that a civil rights lawyer would turn so quickly to this idea.

[00:37:02] It is but I still believe it though.

[00:37:04] I know a social worker who's just a real piece of shit.

[00:37:11] Love to social workers out there.

[00:37:12] I'm not saying anything like that but it just surprised me like oh my God you don't care

[00:37:15] about anybody.

[00:37:16] No I mean something's hard on you don't you if you're a lawyer or whatever it can make

[00:37:22] you feel really like a doctor or something.

[00:37:24] You become numb to certain things but I thought it was interesting that it affected Andrea

[00:37:29] when he said the world we know has gone keeping our humanity as a choice and she does agree

[00:37:34] to help him.

[00:37:35] She says not because I think you're right but I think she might be lying because I think

[00:37:38] she does think he's right deep down because we see her agreeing with him in the end.

[00:37:43] We get an absolute gem of the scene with Dale and Herschel.

[00:37:47] We get so little time between Scott Wilson and Geoffrey de Munn.

[00:37:51] It's just a nice scene with the two of them.

[00:37:54] Herschel saying I don't want to know I want away from my girls I don't care how.

[00:37:57] Herschel is really turning the other cheek now after his kind of I don't know something

[00:38:01] has been humbled in Herschel that means he's not making big judgments in the way that he

[00:38:05] was keeping people in the barn.

[00:38:07] It's just nice to also see Herschel do some farming.

[00:38:09] The farm is still operating that's cool.

[00:38:14] The Dale and Shane scene is so good.

[00:38:17] What's up Dale?

[00:38:18] He's so annoyed already.

[00:38:20] Dale's turned up and he's like all right what the fuck you want now.

[00:38:22] I mean it says something for Dale that he showed up knowing how dangerous Shane is.

[00:38:29] Shane has pretty much threatened his life and yet he's there sticking his chest out

[00:38:35] you know he's scared but he's like saying what he's got to say.

[00:38:38] It's a weirdly sweet scene between the two of them.

[00:38:42] Shane kind of steps up to it a little bit which I liked.

[00:38:46] Obviously the third person in that scene is the Hyundai which is behind Shane for the

[00:38:49] whole scene and very clean.

[00:38:52] But they've reached this kind of uneasy understanding and Shane does kind of do a bit of dick swinging

[00:38:57] by saying Dale will be complicit if Randall kills someone.

[00:39:00] But there is this weird sort of masculine energy game recognizes game that I won't

[00:39:06] pretend to understand but I enjoyed watching.

[00:39:08] Oh come on you've done that with all your girlfriends.

[00:39:11] Oh yeah absolutely.

[00:39:12] Regularly.

[00:39:13] Regularly.

[00:39:14] That's how we start most of our conversations.

[00:39:15] I'm just kidding.

[00:39:16] Yeah yeah like you said that Shane told Dale you know you'll be complicit if he does

[00:39:24] anything and that would be what would be on my mind because I would be the Dale.

[00:39:30] I would be on Dale's side and I would also be thinking fuck you better not do anything.

[00:39:35] We were rooting for you.

[00:39:37] We were all rooting for you.

[00:39:38] Like don't be a dick.

[00:39:39] I mean if Randall brought his people back and or Randall killed somebody or something

[00:39:46] I'd just be like bye fucking eh.

[00:39:50] I would just be like well you know what can I say we don't know everything.

[00:39:56] I made a boo boo.

[00:39:57] It's all good.

[00:39:58] And everyone's like get out.

[00:39:59] Whoops my bad.

[00:40:01] But Shane said if everyone agrees with you or if enough people then I won't stand in

[00:40:11] the way.

[00:40:12] I'm like really because just a few minutes ago you were talking with Andrea about like

[00:40:17] staging a coup.

[00:40:18] A full on coup.

[00:40:19] So I thought it was kind of cool of Shane to say that but I'm like what what are you

[00:40:26] talking about?

[00:40:27] It's also duplicitous as fuck though isn't it?

[00:40:29] Like it is that thing where you're like yeah no.

[00:40:32] He just knows that's not going to happen anyway I think.

[00:40:34] Right and then we have the courthouse in the living room which I think is really interesting.

[00:40:42] Glenn lets Dale down and then Dale asks Maggie who's clearly uncomfortable and Maggie suggests

[00:40:47] he can continue keeping him prisoner.

[00:40:50] I loved the way Andrew Lincoln delivered the line.

[00:40:52] I don't think any of us should be walking around with this guy like there's just something

[00:40:57] about the way he fucking hates Randall so much but in this way that like he's more just

[00:41:01] annoying than actually a threat that I find very interesting.

[00:41:04] He's just not cool.

[00:41:05] He's not.

[00:41:06] Yeah he's just like oh no one's walking around with this loser and everyone's like yeah you're

[00:41:09] right Rick that wouldn't be cool.

[00:41:12] Laurie wouldn't feel safe what the fuck ever that annoyed me to high heaven.

[00:41:17] I love that Patricia's like how do we do it?

[00:41:20] Like Patricia's like lowkey like ooh how will we murder him?

[00:41:25] It fascinated me that Carol is so innocent here like she really struggles with it.

[00:41:29] She's like I didn't ask for this responsibility.

[00:41:32] Decide what you're going to decide.

[00:41:33] I don't want any part of it and I'm like oh imagine if this was season three or season

[00:41:37] four.

[00:41:38] Carol would be out there with the shotgun like I've dealt with it don't you worry.

[00:41:44] Hershel says nothing.

[00:41:45] A lot of people don't say anything in the scene.

[00:41:48] T-Dog doesn't say anything hardly the whole episode which is unfortunate in my opinion.

[00:41:53] Dale appeals to their sense.

[00:41:55] He gets very upset.

[00:41:56] He says this new world is ugly.

[00:41:58] Andrea agrees with him.

[00:41:59] Dale Jeffrey DeMunt amazing performance cries I won't be a party to it tells Darryl he's

[00:42:05] right this group is broken and then he leaves.

[00:42:09] That is the last they hear from him until they don't hear from him.

[00:42:16] And Andrea is happy when she realizes the execution hasn't happened and goes to find

[00:42:19] him to tell him and he never finds out.

[00:42:22] Although I guess he didn't hear the gun so maybe he knows but yeah he doesn't know that

[00:42:26] they changed their mind.

[00:42:27] Yeah.

[00:42:28] Glenn they cut it out but Glenn was like hey at least we didn't kill Randall.

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:33] Dale just before you go we didn't kill him.

[00:42:36] You made an impact.

[00:42:37] Because Carl's a psycho.

[00:42:38] That is so awful to joke about.

[00:42:40] I'm sorry everyone.

[00:42:41] But I mean if you've been affected by cattle evisceration maybe seek therapeutic help and

[00:42:48] don't listen to this podcast.

[00:42:52] Call your therapist.

[00:42:53] So it was a great great final episode for Jeffrey DeMunt.

[00:42:57] Sad to see him go.

[00:42:59] I remember when I was watching it the first time around thinking this seems like a dumb

[00:43:03] death.

[00:43:04] Yeah kind of.

[00:43:05] Yeah.

[00:43:06] One zombie.

[00:43:07] Like there are hardly any zombies.

[00:43:08] One zombie in a field staring at some entrails.

[00:43:12] You know I read an interesting fact on IMDB.

[00:43:14] I've got more of them but this was a really interesting one.

[00:43:17] It was originally not supposed to be a cow.

[00:43:19] It was supposed to be Jimmy.

[00:43:22] But apparently they changed their minds because they didn't want to detract from the impact

[00:43:26] of Dale's death.

[00:43:27] So Jimmy got a stay of execution.

[00:43:29] That's yeah I think they did the right thing.

[00:43:31] Yeah me too.

[00:43:32] Yeah and then Jimmy gets it in the finale.

[00:43:35] I remember hearing the scream.

[00:43:38] Bye Jimmy.

[00:43:39] Forever.

[00:43:40] All right I'm going to talk about Carl.

[00:43:46] I'm going to talk about social services.

[00:43:49] The first things of course you think about is just how creepy and psycho he comes off

[00:43:55] staring down at Randall like a antichrist.

[00:43:58] Oh my god.

[00:44:01] Preoccupied with how Rick is going to kill Randall.

[00:44:04] Are you going to hang him in the barn?

[00:44:05] He doesn't seem worried at all just curious.

[00:44:08] He like kind of stares at the dead squirrels hanging by Darryl's motorcycle a couple seconds

[00:44:13] too long.

[00:44:14] Takes his gun.

[00:44:17] Then he's staring at that zombie stuck in the mud and throwing rocks at it.

[00:44:23] Just wild.

[00:44:24] And then yeah then he sees Rick about to execute Randall and he says do it dad.

[00:44:30] Do it dad.

[00:44:32] So I just think about it more I felt really bad for poor Carl because he's exposed to all

[00:44:39] this death and viciousness and it's really kind of fascinating in a sad way to show

[00:44:44] how this kind of thing might impact a little kid.

[00:44:47] I think about kids in war zones you know places in the world right now who have it so not

[00:44:52] a kid's life you know violence, starvation all kinds of things and they're going to have

[00:44:59] and they have to figure out how to handle all of this and we know.

[00:45:04] He's on his own.

[00:45:05] He has no his friend is dead.

[00:45:07] You know the one kid that was there with him is gone.

[00:45:11] And it's interesting because in the comics both Sophia and Carl last way way longer.

[00:45:17] Their relationship is very interesting.

[00:45:20] And yeah it's sad.

[00:45:21] He is on his own.

[00:45:22] It's a really good relationship.

[00:45:25] So little kids they want to be grown up and I have a seven year old right now and he's

[00:45:31] obsessed with his muscles.

[00:45:33] He's always asking me am I strong and he only will eat food that's healthy.

[00:45:38] So he always is asking me if something's healthy and I like he's like is bacon healthy and

[00:45:44] I'm like I want him to eat it so I'm like oh it's kind of got protein.

[00:45:49] You feel like a bad father like you have to say no a lot of times.

[00:45:55] But anyway they want to grow up and emulate adults and you know they want to be an adult

[00:46:03] faster than they don't realize.

[00:46:05] You should enjoy being a kid and of course in this kind of situation like you said there's

[00:46:08] no enjoyment but anyway so they're modeling what the adults do and in this show the adults

[00:46:17] are getting pretty cutthroat.

[00:46:19] They're modeling being killers in the name of security.

[00:46:23] And so that's why Carl's kind of obsessed with I want to be a grown up.

[00:46:29] I want to help with the security of this place.

[00:46:33] I want to be like my dad who will kill someone to keep us safe and that's why he takes the

[00:46:40] gun yeah protect.

[00:46:42] And so that's why he's looking at this zombie and is like I'm going to kill the zombies

[00:46:49] so I can be like my dad you know and like Shane who's like a father figure to him.

[00:46:56] So I was and it's you know you do need to kill Zeds obviously.

[00:47:00] I'm not saying no to that at all but in a sense Dale died because Carl was emulating

[00:47:05] the adults killing in the name of security and Carl wouldn't have been out there doing

[00:47:10] that if not for exposure to most everyone deciding to kill Randall.

[00:47:15] So in this roundabout way Dale died because of the attitude he's arguing against.

[00:47:19] So that's kind of how a little bit of a new insight I saw like before it seemed so random

[00:47:24] that Carl like caused this zombie to get out of the mud and then that zombie ended up killing

[00:47:29] Dale.

[00:47:30] But I kind of think the point is that Carl's exposure to these attitudes that Dale was

[00:47:37] fighting against is what got Dale killed you know it's kind of interesting.

[00:47:41] I've always hated that that zombie is the one that bit Dale because like I've struggled

[00:47:47] a lot in my life with feeling responsible for things sometimes to like a mentally unwell

[00:47:54] stage and the thought of something you did leading to the death of another person like

[00:47:59] makes me sick to my core.

[00:48:01] And I'm not saying that like I'm so unusual.

[00:48:04] Imagine feeling that I'm so quirky like people probably feel that.

[00:48:08] I don't think people think about it that much though.

[00:48:10] Oh I like when I was younger and I struggled a lot with obsessive thoughts this would be

[00:48:13] something that would like eat away at me and I've always felt so sorry for Carl.

[00:48:18] I'm just like to me this is one of the points where Carl stopped being a kid and it makes

[00:48:22] me so sad that that's taken away from him.

[00:48:25] Because he's looking at Dale when Dale's dying and he sees the zombie and he knows

[00:48:30] oh it's my fault.

[00:48:31] But I can't remember if there were any ramifications because they still keep on going with the

[00:48:36] story of Carl being kind of a little psycho for a while because he shot that kid in season

[00:48:41] three.

[00:48:42] So I don't remember what impact this had on him if any aside from that moment.

[00:48:48] It makes me really sad for him.

[00:48:52] I'm glad he turns out okay in his life.

[00:48:55] Me too.

[00:48:56] Very much.

[00:48:57] It's just so sad.

[00:48:58] So sad.

[00:48:59] I have some Carl points as well but I'll let you finish up.

[00:49:02] I'm done.

[00:49:03] You're done?

[00:49:04] I'm done.

[00:49:05] Carl is a psycho, the end.

[00:49:09] He is fascinated by Randall and it's all because they keep referring to him as a kid.

[00:49:12] And I think it…

[00:49:13] Oh my god I've just realized oh Jesus he probably wants a friend and that's why he's

[00:49:18] probably interested if this person's actually a kid or not.

[00:49:20] Or if a kid can be bad.

[00:49:23] Or he can simply not like I want to go and be friends with the prisoner but the thought

[00:49:26] of another child.

[00:49:28] I don't think he's looking at him as a possible connection though.

[00:49:31] I think he's looking at him as a threat.

[00:49:33] I think he's looking at him as a threat but I think he's also fascinated by the fact

[00:49:36] that it could be a child.

[00:49:37] It could be someone his age who is a threat.

[00:49:39] Then again too it looked like maybe if Shane hadn't shown up maybe Carl was considering

[00:49:44] letting him go?

[00:49:45] Maybe?

[00:49:46] Yeah.

[00:49:47] Well Randall was manipulating him.

[00:49:48] Shane's not wrong as well.

[00:49:50] That's the thing with Shane.

[00:49:51] Men like that will manipulate you.

[00:49:53] They will make you think…

[00:49:54] Well how can you blame Randall?

[00:49:56] He's about to be killed.

[00:49:58] Yeah exactly.

[00:50:00] And he makes a good point to Shane.

[00:50:04] Shane makes a good point to Carl about you let your guard down out here people die.

[00:50:07] Like you've got to keep your guard up at all times.

[00:50:09] That is true.

[00:50:10] I will agree with that 100%.

[00:50:11] I did also love that Carl's biggest fear is that Shane will tell his parents.

[00:50:14] He's like don't tell my mum and dad!

[00:50:16] And I'm like yeah they're not really paying attention it's fine.

[00:50:21] Randall talking to Carl is…yeah that's a sweet hat.

[00:50:24] Like oh Randall you idiot.

[00:50:28] I don't really have much to add apart from the scene with Carl and Carol.

[00:50:33] Carl and Carl was quite an interesting one.

[00:50:39] Carl…oh fuck me.

[00:50:41] Carl Grimes is angry at Carl Pelletier.

[00:50:43] The Scottish accent isn't helping here because she is trying to comfort him about Sophia

[00:50:50] and say you know she's in heaven now.

[00:50:54] I kind of side with Carl a little bit here because I sort of feel like you have a right

[00:50:58] to grieve how you want and it's not necessarily cool to tell someone like it's fine they're

[00:51:03] in heaven if that's not necessarily what that person believes.

[00:51:06] However Carol did just lose her daughter in his grieving and it's probably not a good

[00:51:10] excuse to be a little dickhead to her.

[00:51:12] So he says if you believe it you're an idiot and Carol is raging and my note just says that

[00:51:17] fuck it season two and not season five otherwise Carl would probably be dead by now.

[00:51:24] So Rick goes to talk to him.

[00:51:26] Carol is furious at Laurie.

[00:51:27] She says everyone in a voice mirror treats me like I'm crazy.

[00:51:29] I've lost my daughter.

[00:51:30] I didn't lose my mind and I thought that was a really interesting insight into how we deal

[00:51:33] with grief and how we don't know how to talk to people who have suffered great loss.

[00:51:39] Carl just wants to ask about Randall when Rick has given him shit and telling him off and

[00:51:44] Rick says don't talk think.

[00:51:47] And there's the sense that all the adults are kind of exasperated with Carl which leads

[00:51:50] to him running off into the woods and leading to all the things that happen in this episode

[00:51:56] like encouraging his dad to shoot Carl, taunting Matt Walker which leads to Gail's death.

[00:52:02] No he didn't encourage his dad to shoot Carl.

[00:52:05] No the other way.

[00:52:06] Oh for fuck's sake.

[00:52:08] Carl encouraging his dad to shoot Randall.

[00:52:12] Yeah it's just…it makes me sad for Carl this episode.

[00:52:16] I do feel for him.

[00:52:17] I think it's a lot for a kid.

[00:52:19] But it's also fun to just be like what a little psycho.

[00:52:23] Oh yeah and I did laugh because in The Walking Dead's Bad Lip Sync this is one of the scenes

[00:52:29] from it and it's…

[00:52:30] Yeah that's all I think about.

[00:52:32] Here I'll play it.

[00:52:33] Yeah.

[00:52:34] I only have a little snippet but it's when Carl said heaven is just another lie and if

[00:52:41] you believe it you're an idiot.

[00:52:43] And Carol says you need to control that boy and Rick says Carl what happened?

[00:52:47] He's disrespectful.

[00:52:48] No I just hear it when I see that.

[00:52:50] I just hear this.

[00:52:51] Uh oh what happened?

[00:52:52] He said dreet and I'm about to freak out.

[00:53:01] That's it.

[00:53:02] Dreet.

[00:53:03] It's literally in my notes.

[00:53:07] If you guys have still not seen that you gotta watch it.

[00:53:11] It'll put a smile on your face.

[00:53:12] It's amazing.

[00:53:13] I'll make a note to put in the show notes.

[00:53:14] I'm about to freak out.

[00:53:15] I don't remember for sure but I think I was annoyed with Carol this episode the first

[00:53:27] time because she's just yelling at Rick about her kid.

[00:53:33] That boy needs to be controlled and it's like fuck me we're about to kill a guy or we're

[00:53:38] talking about matters?

[00:53:39] Like sure.

[00:53:40] Okay.

[00:53:41] But now yeah I see her as like you said she's grieving and she's just had a fucking hard

[00:53:47] life and a hard time especially lately with the world ending and everything.

[00:53:51] And so she says you need to control your son.

[00:53:54] I think in particular that could be a projection because A she feels like she didn't keep track

[00:53:58] of Sophia well enough but or maybe just a direct resentment of Rick for not having kept

[00:54:05] track of Sophia.

[00:54:06] You need to do a better job with kids god damn you.

[00:54:09] Yeah fuck's sake right?

[00:54:11] I'm like oh okay.

[00:54:13] And then later she's I'm tired of the fighting I didn't ask for any of this and I don't want

[00:54:17] to have to decide and I can totally identify with that like there's decisions being made

[00:54:23] in the world right now that I wouldn't want to have to make.

[00:54:25] Some of them I would like to make but some of them I'm like oh shit I don't know what

[00:54:28] to do.

[00:54:29] So I can identify and yeah she's not her best self but she's grieving and also she's starting

[00:54:36] to assert herself in a way that she hadn't before you know.

[00:54:40] Just by saying hey this is I'm you know she's been kind of a meek flower before this and

[00:54:47] now I think this is the early stages of what's going to become her great strength later on.

[00:54:52] You see her in the background just aim a gun at Carl going pew pew pew.

[00:54:57] See those flowers over there Carl?

[00:54:58] Yes see them see them Carl.

[00:55:02] So I'll talk about Dale dying.

[00:55:06] Interesting to have an episode where there's just one guy who doesn't want to kill someone

[00:55:11] about and it's out of morality and then he ends up dying at the end and it was like Walking

[00:55:15] Dead was saying you're not built for this world Dale.

[00:55:19] And yeah I was thinking he was this episode is him being the odd man out and I wonder

[00:55:24] if Jeffrey DeMunn felt that way too because he left the show because Frank Darabont got

[00:55:29] fired.

[00:55:31] The other one of the other well two let's see Melissa McBride and Laurie Holden were

[00:55:38] also Darabont people.

[00:55:40] So I'm surprised you didn't mention them when Bernthal said who stood up for them.

[00:55:47] Well apparently it was a whole thing listen to the episode it's really interesting.

[00:55:50] Apparently there was a there was talk about like we'll do a letter we'll let them know

[00:55:55] we're pissed off but then apparently not everyone stood up to the plate for that.

[00:56:00] Sarah Wayne Cowleys is even like you know I wrote and sometimes I regret it because

[00:56:04] you know that would have been a good paycheck to have.

[00:56:06] I'm also like didn't you read the comics but yeah it's a really definitely definitely

[00:56:12] worth a listen but you get the sense that they felt at least it was the three of them

[00:56:17] trying to take action and nobody else kind of standing up in the same way.

[00:56:22] So yeah make of that what you will.

[00:56:26] Well I think it all turned out for the best honestly.

[00:56:28] I think so.

[00:56:29] I don't think so.

[00:56:31] I don't like Darabont as much as everyone else.

[00:56:33] I do I mean they're such great he started the show off so great but season two was just

[00:56:39] it dragged it drags.

[00:56:42] There's good moments but when Glenn here Glenn Mazar is in and it's I feel like the second

[00:56:46] half is stronger much stronger aside from the episode where Sophia came out of the barn

[00:56:51] which was also very strong.

[00:56:53] So anyway Dale says no I can't read.

[00:57:00] Dale says I mean I'm just proud of Dale for standing up for his point so strongly here

[00:57:06] and being so passionate about it.

[00:57:08] I very much identify with him here.

[00:57:10] So then he has his gruesome death which is so zombie movie gross this said ripping right

[00:57:16] through his chest and.

[00:57:19] I forgotten he isn't even fucking bitten.

[00:57:21] He is like ripped apart.

[00:57:23] I don't know if we ever see apart from maybe Noah this might be the last time we see.

[00:57:28] Well yeah.

[00:57:29] Oh awful.

[00:57:30] Yeah it's gross.

[00:57:31] Probably but it's one that sticks out.

[00:57:32] Noah is such a good one.

[00:57:34] So then yeah you mentioned like Daryl stepping in to take care of Dale when Rick was having

[00:57:41] was struggling with it and I think that's compassion.

[00:57:45] That's a compassionate move on Daryl's part both for Rick and for Dale too so kind of

[00:57:51] help make up a little bit for all that torture stuff.

[00:57:53] A little bit.

[00:57:56] And then this last thing I want to say about this is so I when I went to film on the show

[00:58:04] they were still airing earlier episodes of season two.

[00:58:07] So that's when I learned that Sophia came out of the barn because that episode hadn't

[00:58:13] been out yet.

[00:58:14] I already mentioned that.

[00:58:16] And I was filming the finale but I also noticed that Shane that John Bernthal wasn't around

[00:58:24] and that Dale wasn't around.

[00:58:27] You know Jeffrey DeMunn and I resisted asking anybody why because I'd already been spoiled

[00:58:33] on Sophia so I'm like I'm just gonna keep my head down and try not to learn anything

[00:58:37] else and I so I didn't find out exactly what happened to Dale but I knew something happened

[00:58:44] because he wasn't on vacation.

[00:58:48] So then it was confirmed.

[00:58:49] Oh bless.

[00:58:50] No that sucks.

[00:58:51] I'm sorry.

[00:58:52] Yeah whatever.

[00:58:53] You got to be on the show though so like yeah worth it.

[00:58:59] All right that's all the points I have except for notes.

[00:59:02] I had a brief one about Rick and Laurie.

[00:59:06] Just basically that Laurie's not great in this episode.

[00:59:09] She does a lot of like oh at least you and Rick at least you and Shane aren't fighting

[00:59:13] if you think it's best.

[00:59:16] I don't know she doesn't do much when Rick's saying stuff like it has to be me I brought

[00:59:19] him back here this is my call.

[00:59:22] See it's like you know she's totally continue on from last week where she's like oh it's

[00:59:30] the women's job to support the man and serve and obey and you know.

[00:59:38] And Rick's like I want I want to know your opinion here and no no whatever honey.

[00:59:43] It bothered me.

[00:59:44] It bothered me especially when you have that backdrop of the two of them like her feeling

[00:59:47] like they don't really fight and things like that.

[00:59:49] I'm like yeah.

[00:59:50] That's really all I had.

[00:59:54] I thought it was interesting at the end when he comes back from not having shot Randall

[00:59:58] and they have a kind of sweet moment where they sort of hug.

[01:00:01] I think this might be one of their last kind of intimate moments and it was I just read

[01:00:06] as well Rick tells Laurie Carl's a psycho he wanted to watch.

[01:00:09] And I was like well that's going to be some awkward parenting conversations.

[01:00:14] I can't remember.

[01:00:15] Oh I was gonna say I can't remember what went wrong in their relationship Rick and Laurie

[01:00:23] because you know it's never been like totally solid but they seem that they really went

[01:00:29] off the rails because that whole stuff and things thing.

[01:00:33] But I guess it was it that he healed Shane.

[01:00:35] Was that why she.

[01:00:36] I think essentially my understanding again we're going to come to it guys so if I'm not

[01:00:40] right then we'll find out very soon.

[01:00:43] She essentially tells him to kill Shane then he does it and she's not happy.

[01:00:47] Yeah.

[01:00:48] And is that why they're.

[01:00:50] And I think that he can't forgive her for that because she encouraged him to do something

[01:00:55] he presumably didn't want to do what might not have really wanted to do and then refuses

[01:01:01] to back him up and is disgusted by it.

[01:01:03] But which to be honest would piss you off.

[01:01:07] Usually I would say usually I try to be magnanimous about that but no that's not shitty.

[01:01:11] You know this thing that you would never want to do and it'd be your worst nightmare.

[01:01:14] I think you should really do it and then you do it.

[01:01:15] They're like why'd you do that.

[01:01:17] You fucking psycho that's disgusting.

[01:01:19] And you're like oh OK cool.

[01:01:22] Great I'll just go and sit over here with my complicated feelings like awful.

[01:01:27] Pain in the arse.

[01:01:28] OK.

[01:01:29] I kind of have a lot of notes.

[01:01:31] So this is the first episode directed by Greg Nicotero and the series so far.

[01:01:38] He went on to direct more episodes than anyone else.

[01:01:41] Thirty seven total including the series finale.

[01:01:46] It was written by Angela Kang who of course went on to be showrunner.

[01:01:50] And by the way she was going to be the showrunner of the Daryl was going to be the Daryl and

[01:01:55] Carol show.

[01:01:56] But then she opted out and I think it's because she got this eight figure deal with Amazon

[01:02:02] to develop shows.

[01:02:03] Yeah.

[01:02:04] And hasn't the first one been binned.

[01:02:07] Yeah well all but that.

[01:02:10] She was developing a TV series about this Spider-Man character Silk who's about Cindy

[01:02:16] Moon I think Korean American girl who got bitten by the same radioactive spider as Peter

[01:02:20] Parker and Amazon.

[01:02:22] I think the pandemic might have made a problem with this but anyway Amazon recently passed

[01:02:27] on the show but Sony is supposed to be shopping around others so it's not completely dead

[01:02:31] yet.

[01:02:32] It's not dead dead.

[01:02:33] But maybe.

[01:02:34] But she still I think has that deal with Amazon so we may hopefully if this doesn't fly see

[01:02:38] more stuff from her.

[01:02:39] I'll be interested to see what she does.

[01:02:41] I interviewed her twice and I just went back and listened to both of those trying to find

[01:02:44] that quote and it was she's just a blast to talk to super cool.

[01:02:47] Yeah.

[01:02:48] So yeah that's it with her.

[01:02:52] Early on in this episode Herschel said it doesn't steer busted through the fence so

[01:02:56] I guess that's how this maybe zombie got in there and maybe the rest that we see in

[01:03:01] the finale.

[01:03:02] I don't know.

[01:03:03] I guess I only had one more Scott Wilson that whole thing where he's like sitting next to

[01:03:11] Beth saying doodle a doodle bug go away home.

[01:03:16] Me I remember me and Karen really thought that was cute.

[01:03:20] So when I'm doing a lot of clips today but when I interviewed Scott Wilson I asked him

[01:03:24] about it.

[01:03:26] We particularly like the one where you're with Beth and you're singing the doodle bug

[01:03:31] song.

[01:03:32] Was that scripted?

[01:03:33] Naturally no.

[01:03:34] That little doodle bug song was something that was improvised there.

[01:03:47] But that's a rarity.

[01:03:49] Almost everything is scripted.

[01:03:50] The writers are sensational on the show.

[01:03:53] They're really really fantastic.

[01:03:57] Is that so is that something you came up with?

[01:04:00] One of our listeners actually said that her grandfather calls her doodle bug I think and

[01:04:04] maybe it's a thing in the South.

[01:04:07] Well it is actually.

[01:04:08] I remember when I was a kid and we used to play under my grandparents house.

[01:04:16] It was kind of up on bricks and they had these little funnel type holes in the sand.

[01:04:23] We lived in South Georgia.

[01:04:25] And you take a little stick and run it around in there and say doodle bug doodle bug go

[01:04:30] away home.

[01:04:31] And so I remembered that and I thought I'll throw that in.

[01:04:40] That was awesome.

[01:04:41] That's terrible.

[01:04:42] That's it.

[01:04:44] Oh that's lovely.

[01:04:47] What cool guy.

[01:04:50] Yeah.

[01:04:51] Yeah.

[01:04:52] I love that.

[01:04:54] Okay.

[01:04:55] I have not many notes to be honest.

[01:04:59] Just that Maggie it's interesting Maggie is now with our group a lot more so like you

[01:05:03] see her at the campsite when both when Rick comes back from not having killed Randall

[01:05:09] and at the start when they're waiting to hear what Darryl's find out Maggie's with them

[01:05:13] rather than in the house.

[01:05:14] And I thought that's a shift.

[01:05:16] She's clearly spending more time as I don't know she's really the bridge between the farm

[01:05:21] and the group and that's starting to become more fluid as she spends more time with them.

[01:05:27] So it's a nice nice thing to see.

[01:05:30] I also have my IMDB notes that say Greg Nectar wanted the cow to look eviscerated so he bought

[01:05:38] real entrails from a butcher shop.

[01:05:39] The outside temperature was so high the entrails steamed on their own at first.

[01:05:44] So that's yummy.

[01:05:45] I hope everyone's eating while they're listening to this.

[01:05:48] Unlike most episodes the theme music is not played over the closing credits instead there

[01:05:52] is only silence.

[01:05:54] The name of the episode judge jury and executioner implies these roles will be filled out for

[01:05:57] Randall's fate.

[01:05:58] However only the judge and jury roles pertain to him with Rick as the judge and the group

[01:06:02] as the jury.

[01:06:03] The executioner is Darryl who instead kills a suffering Dale when Rick cannot bring himself

[01:06:07] to do it.

[01:06:09] I guess so but the idea was I mean that phrase typically is employed when you're saying

[01:06:16] oh you're the judge jury and executioner as you're everything all this person's not getting

[01:06:21] a fair trial here.

[01:06:23] Right.

[01:06:24] Only another two.

[01:06:27] Just reaffirming that death Dale's death is the first in the show to be honored with silent

[01:06:31] credits.

[01:06:32] The final one I think is a stretch in this episode Rick says to Laurie look I know how

[01:06:36] you feel about the death penalty.

[01:06:37] Maybe a nod to Sarah Wayne Calley's other commonly known character Dr. Sarah Tancredi

[01:06:41] from Prison Break.

[01:06:42] Tancredi was opposed to the death penalty an essential character in the series.

[01:06:47] And if you listen to that episode of Jon Bernthal's podcast you'll hear a lot more about Prison

[01:06:51] Break.

[01:06:52] And in terms of the timeline this is day 81 Rick has only been awake for 22 days so that's

[01:06:57] three weeks in a day.

[01:06:58] A lot has happened.

[01:07:01] So I've been debating a little bit on I've had more thoughts about this whole talk that

[01:07:08] you and me and Rennie had about the possessive patriarchy.

[01:07:11] Okay.

[01:07:12] You know and I wanted to go back and listen to Rick saying that's my wife because the

[01:07:19] way that Rennie said it was he had a real intensity to my wife my you know and so I

[01:07:27] was going clip crazy so I have clips he actually said it twice.

[01:07:31] So I'm gonna play through those they're pretty quick.

[01:07:34] That is my wife that is my son that is my unborn child I will stay alive to keep them

[01:07:41] alive.

[01:07:42] And then here's the second time.

[01:07:44] That is my wife that is my son that is my child.

[01:07:54] If you're gonna be with us you gotta follow my lead you gotta trust me.

[01:08:05] So I just like it's similar to what I was saying earlier about racism that I think there

[01:08:15] absolutely is a problem with possessive patriarchy and inequality among genders and you know

[01:08:24] toxic masculinity and all this kind of stuff but I just want to be careful to call it out

[01:08:30] when I think it's real or if it's debatable to at least have a discussion about it because

[01:08:35] if we just say that everything that looks kind of like that is that then it kind of

[01:08:39] weakens the argument in my opinion.

[01:08:40] It's like because I just think that if I might have said this when the three of us were on

[01:08:46] together but if let's say Andrea was trying to take Laurie's place with Rick you know

[01:08:54] Andrea I could see Laurie saying that's my husband it doesn't mean I own him just means

[01:08:58] it's my husband get away you know and I just feel like that's what he was saying.

[01:09:03] Now what kind of on the other side of that is Rick he's kind of he just takes charge

[01:09:08] of everyone so maybe I'm wrong I don't know maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm not seeing everything

[01:09:14] that he definitely just steps in and goes my way is the law and that is exactly the

[01:09:18] complaint about not I mean it's not even just if anybody did that without getting voted

[01:09:24] in then it would be a problem.

[01:09:26] I don't know but I didn't think it was that intense when he said it you know say that's

[01:09:32] my wife buddy.

[01:09:33] I yeah I think my reading is more similar to Rennie's here I think it's a yeah it's

[01:09:39] a systemic problem and I think Rick can be an amazing guy and still be culpable of that.

[01:09:47] I think the second one is less aggressive than the first one but I think it's the optics

[01:09:52] of having two men argue over who a woman belongs to or whose property she is or who without

[01:09:59] really involving her in that discussion I just think is a bit I don't know.

[01:10:03] So let me ask you this let's say Lori let's say Andrea had a thing for Rick and she was

[01:10:10] trying to convince Rick to leave Lori would you blame Lori for saying that's my husband?

[01:10:18] Would I blame her?

[01:10:19] Would you think it was a toxic thing to say because of ownership?

[01:10:23] Would I think it was a toxic thing to say probably less so but I think that's because

[01:10:28] literally like the literal laws of marriage and where it comes from is the idea that

[01:10:33] women becomes a man's property.

[01:10:36] But when you're saying that's my wife or that's my husband you're not that's not where you're

[01:10:41] coming from you know what I mean?

[01:10:42] It's not like oh I know that the history of marriage is that men owned women and that's

[01:10:47] what I'm thinking right now it's more like that's my wife you're not her husband I am

[01:10:51] you know what I mean?

[01:10:53] I think when you're dealing with I think it's easy to get bogged down in the kind of

[01:10:58] semantics and intonation of this.

[01:11:00] Exactly that's my point.

[01:11:02] Yeah I think what Rennie was saying though was within the broader context of what they're

[01:11:06] kind of arguing about what this sort of dick swinging contest is about is about something

[01:11:11] that's quite it's like two alphas going at each other here with no consideration for

[01:11:17] like well what does the women actually want in all of this where is she standing in this?

[01:11:22] Well Laurie told him in his ear Shane's a problem she knows what she wants.

[01:11:28] There is consideration for what she wants.

[01:11:30] The writing doesn't always know that but I think the way he's expressing it is poor.

[01:11:34] So you're saying if Laurie said that that's my husband to Andrea then it would be a problem?

[01:11:42] I would find it I don't know I find the idea of possessing another person weird like I

[01:11:46] just do I find that really strange.

[01:11:48] Yeah and I don't think of it that way like when I say Jenny's my wife I don't think

[01:11:54] of it as a possession I think of it as a relationship and that you know and I think it can be debated

[01:12:00] whether marriage is even it's whether it's antiquated and you know whether human beings

[01:12:07] are even meant to be monogamous all that kind of thing I think is a valid debate but in

[01:12:12] this context Shane sorry Laurie and Rick have decided we're married and whatever they've

[01:12:18] decided goes along with that typically it's things like we're supportive of each other

[01:12:22] we hold each other at a higher priority than we hold other people we're faithful we trust

[01:12:27] each other we tell each other everything whatever it is that's in your marriage you know and

[01:12:31] so if someone else tries to horn in on that break it up then I think it's just a way of

[01:12:37] saying hey that's my wife not yours you know what are you doing you know yeah I would I

[01:12:45] think in all things being equal that's a good way of looking at it but I think in the context

[01:12:51] of what Rick and Shane are arguing about in that moment is a very heated very emotionally

[01:12:58] charged exchange in which Shane has moved in Rick's mind Shane has moved in on his turf

[01:13:06] when Rick has not been there which is ultimately true Shane has inserted himself into a role in

[01:13:11] that family but the way in which they are negotiating that in terms of possession and ownership to me

[01:13:20] is problematic because it's not coming at it as being an equal partnership or an equal family

[01:13:25] dynamic it's coming at it as who is the head of this situation who owns this situation whose right

[01:13:32] is it to do X Y & Z and the way in which is negotiated with the two of them is to me problematic

[01:13:37] and I think that's what Rennie was picking up on. Okay so I respect you guys both right to have

[01:13:44] those opinions I to me that is the exact thing that I'm trying to speak out against is when

[01:13:53] like bringing something to a situation that I think actually isn't there can weaken our

[01:14:01] argument for when it is there so there is a problem with toxic masculinity and patriarchy

[01:14:08] and in this case I think it could you could talk about it in those terms but to me there's nothing

[01:14:16] about ownership and what Rick is saying and and I think Laurie would say the same thing if Andrea

[01:14:20] was trying to horn in on her and Rick's situation that's my husband not meaning I own him but

[01:14:26] meaning we have a relationship and it's not your place and especially because Laurie did go to Rick

[01:14:31] and say look Shane is a problem you need to do something about it so it was all at her urging

[01:14:36] that he's trying to do something here you know like they're a team and Shane's trying to break

[01:14:42] up the team that's that's how I see it I like I said I could be wrong and so I think it's good

[01:14:50] to talk about it yeah I'll be interested I would be interested to know what other people's opinions

[01:14:55] are and I'm sad that Rennie's not here to talk about it because I feel like I'm arguing the case

[01:15:01] for yeah no I mean hey it's two people but I talked with Dodie as part of a podcast thing

[01:15:13] she was on one of the listener and she's totally agrees with Rennie too and I'm sure a lot of women

[01:15:19] listening probably doing maybe even some men but I just want to make it clear that I do think it's

[01:15:24] in my opinion this is a way to address the problems with toxic toxic masculinity and patriarchy in a

[01:15:34] better way because when it is something like Harvey Weinstein and he gets called out and

[01:15:42] called to account for what he did and made to pay the consequences I am all for that I want

[01:15:50] to see a very just application of all that so that everyone can get on board with it and I

[01:15:55] just think that if anytime there's something that kind of looks like it and gets labeled it then

[01:16:01] it's less likely that people who are sort of on this fence and persuadable will understand they'll

[01:16:07] just be like oh no it just seems like anytime you say someone says my wife and then you say

[01:16:12] oh you're being a toxic man because you own her you know stuff yeah I've not I've not said that

[01:16:17] also I'm gonna come in with this I'm gonna come in okay good to be honest I'm sorry I don't want

[01:16:21] to misguide no no I'm coming in I'm coming in I was like right I'm sitting up now um that is

[01:16:28] really nice and that was really cool that you think that and I just said that sending really

[01:16:32] sarcastic but I do actually mean that but there is an element of lived experience that comes with

[01:16:41] being a woman or a genderqueer person when you hear these things and when you live the experiences

[01:16:48] that we've lived our whole lives and what we've been told our worth is and what we've been told

[01:16:51] our aims should be and what we've been told our places in society and the systems all around us

[01:16:57] that are built up to tell people you know you're gonna be X Y & Z but not too much you're gonna

[01:17:02] be X Y & Z but never the same as a man you're not gonna get paid in the same way the systems

[01:17:07] that make you want to be with a partner the ones where you want to show your commitment to somebody

[01:17:11] are based on ancient transactional property laws like you can't even until very recently go into

[01:17:17] partnership with somebody without it playing into a literal system of patriarchal power it's really

[01:17:23] hard to kind of have these conversations I think because we're coming at it from two such different

[01:17:31] perspectives and it's like I want to be an incredibly good ally when I can be I want to

[01:17:37] be a good ally to my friends who are trans I want to be a good ally to my friends who are male I want

[01:17:43] to be a good ally to everyone who I love and care about in the world but at a certain point I have

[01:17:47] to step back and say I actually don't know what that's like and I actually don't know because I've

[01:17:53] not brought the same baggage that you've brought to this in how you interpret and understand it

[01:17:58] and I think that's where our vocabulary of things like microaggressions or expectations or self

[01:18:06] belief about our place in society comes into play so when I hear men like Rick and Shane who are

[01:18:14] powerful men who have held positions of power they've been law enforcers they've been white

[01:18:19] cisgendered men who've lived at the very top of the pecking order when I and I assume Renny I don't

[01:18:25] want to speak for you Renny so I apologize if you're listening and you're like Lucy that's not

[01:18:28] what I meant when I hear them talk about things like my wife and my unborn child and lay down the

[01:18:35] law in terms of possession it does get my back up and it does make me feel perhaps Rick is not in

[01:18:41] that moment setting out to be toxically masculine perhaps in that moment what he's saying isn't

[01:18:47] being as pointed or as upsetting as I feel that it is however I don't think that invalidates my

[01:18:56] right to say that is a toxic attitude and I don't like it and it annoys me sorry that's my rant

[01:19:03] no it's great I'm glad you spoke up and you found your voice I did find my voice all I needed was

[01:19:09] a man to show me how to speak what would you what do you think Rick could have done that was better

[01:19:17] in this situation where Shane is trying to get Rick or Laurie to leave Rick for Shane and Laurie

[01:19:25] has told Rick that Shane is dangerous and Rick wants to have a talk with Shane to tell him here's

[01:19:32] how you can still be a part of the group what could he have said in that moment that was different

[01:19:36] that would have not played into all of this I think Laurie could have been a part of the conversation

[01:19:42] why is she not there but she's the one who told Rick to handle it remember yeah that's a problem

[01:19:47] in and of itself though isn't it but here's where we are okay here's where we are Shane she told Rick

[01:19:53] to do it they went off now in this moment what does Rick need to do just not say anything or I

[01:20:00] mean he definitely I don't think should be like go for it Shane marriage is antiquated and you

[01:20:05] need to just go ahead and you know try to take her and if she wants to go with you that's fine

[01:20:10] what if the problem in this conversation though isn't Rick what if it's Shane what if it's Shane's

[01:20:15] belief that he owns things and it's Rick having to respond to that yeah yeah so the toxic masculinity

[01:20:20] was coming from within the house the whole time I think the whole I will I will take that perhaps

[01:20:32] Rick doesn't believe that Laurie is his property what I take issue with is that these two men are

[01:20:38] dancing around issues using these terms and frameworks of like possession and ownership

[01:20:44] I find that really tiresome and it bothers me particularly in the context of an episode where

[01:20:50] he's then standing in the kitchen like a fucking 1950s housewife yeah but I just I don't know I

[01:20:57] don't I honestly and maybe we won't come up with it here but I can't think of what Rick could say

[01:21:03] that would satisfy you guys about this you know that you leave Laurie alone use her name thing

[01:21:11] to say like leave Laurie alone Laurie is a person she doesn't want anything to do with you like

[01:21:18] give her a name thank you yeah just like don't Laurie and I have been married we are married

[01:21:24] you know like just not that's my yeah like we are married that's my partner but I think yeah

[01:21:33] I think yeah bring her name and it say her name we're bringing a person Laurie scared you've upset

[01:21:40] Laurie like I care about Laurie I love Laurie she is my wife she's my co-parent like she's my wife

[01:21:46] like you know she's someone I have married I don't know but there's ways of...

[01:21:50] I love that you just said she's my wife

[01:21:51] Yeah I know I'm like she's my wife

[01:21:53] Oh wait wait no strike that for the record

[01:21:54] But in a different tone Jason's like edit the podcast there I just won

[01:21:59] but yeah I think I think there's definitely yeah there's definitely room for these conversations

[01:22:05] but I think we always have to be cognizant of when we're talking from a position that we've not

[01:22:12] necessarily been in like I find that really I find that difficult because then it can turn

[01:22:17] into a competition of like and this isn't about you this is about like dealing with

[01:22:21] differing experiences anyway of like but I've had this and I've had that and I'm like yeah

[01:22:26] I've had this and I've had that but we don't it doesn't...

[01:22:30] I resist the idea that I'm not allowed to talk about things because

[01:22:33] Oh you're definitely allowed

[01:22:34] position but I also understand the point that I need to listen to

[01:22:39] Yeah I think it's you're definitely allowed

[01:22:41] Because I don't know

[01:22:42] But it's about keeping an open mind to when I think sometimes when someone is saying look

[01:22:47] I lived that or this is my experience particularly when it's someone from a marginalized group and

[01:22:53] I'm not necessarily talking about just women here I'm talking about people from like

[01:22:57] Sure absolutely

[01:22:57] Other communities it's our job to sit and be like okay even when it's

[01:23:02] even when we want to be like but it's not like that or I'm not like that it's really hard

[01:23:08] It's fucking difficult

[01:23:08] Yeah because I mean I have a strong feeling of I don't want these kinds of frankly accusations to be

[01:23:22] just buckshot without really thinking is this this actual situation you know the thing that

[01:23:29] I've been saying because then I feel like it weakens the argument but on the other hand

[01:23:35] like you said I'm not a woman I don't know what it's like so and and you know like I said earlier

[01:23:41] I could be wrong I could be missing something and I do like that just like hey leave Lori alone

[01:23:46] Lori's not happy with what you've been doing lately that does feel healthier to me I still

[01:23:52] I really don't think it's a problem that Rick said that but I'm glad the all the viewpoints

[01:23:57] got out there

[01:23:58] Yeah absolutely

[01:24:00] I mean if you're gonna have a conversation with John Bernthal it's gonna get alpha male

[01:24:04] quickly I mean look at his face

[01:24:05] Oh I know I bet I had them

[01:24:08] Yeah did you show that's my wife Johnny that's my wife

[01:24:13] No I just I think I'd mentioned this on the podcast before but he and I were in a panel and

[01:24:17] my first question was way too long and he like trailed off in the middle of it and just started

[01:24:22] talking about something else and I got him back I had to just be there in the moment with him

[01:24:29] but I could feel myself losing him for a while there and he you can tell wherever he wants it to

[01:24:36] go that's where it's gonna go of course he you know that's always the way it should be in panels

[01:24:40] like that but it was an interesting it felt like a little like playful battle of wills or something

[01:24:45] I read that he like punched a guy for touching his dog without his permission and I was like

[01:24:49] Oh my god

[01:24:50] Okay okay his dog who I think is called Lil Bam Bam which by the way is an excellent name for

[01:24:55] a dog but yes that was my John Bernthal deep dive after his podcast was all about his dogs

[01:25:02] All right that was tangent time and now

[01:25:04] That was tangent time

[01:25:06] It's not really a tangent but only on The Walking Dead would a guy ruthlessly beating

[01:25:10] a chained up kid for no good reason be considered a hero

[01:25:14] Only in The Walking Dead would rare beef be the bad end to a night out

[01:25:22] I think that happens a lot

[01:25:39] We're back it's time for Lister Mone's Grunts and Grunts

[01:25:46] So first off we'll start off with a little live Steve

[01:25:51] Hello the cast of us this is Steve and this is for The Walking Dead season two

[01:25:56] Judge, Jury, Executioner

[01:25:58] Oh a punch from Daryl and that's oh we're starting out wow

[01:26:03] Oh digging that knife into his oh this is foreshadowing but I'm not gonna spoil

[01:26:08] the Daryl Dixon show oh Randall careful with that real cute stuff around Daryl

[01:26:14] Oh careful Dale talking about being civilized

[01:26:16] Oh Carl don't go don't get too close to this guy

[01:26:23] Wow I just forgot how early Daryl was just so loner and that didn't want to actually be part

[01:26:29] of the group and everything but man how his character changes wow Carl being disrespectful

[01:26:35] to Carol and yeah Daryl you're right this group is broken

[01:26:40] Oh yuck this walker stuck in the mud is ew he is ugly

[01:26:45] Oh the pocket watch scene and wow Scott Wilson was powerful as an actor

[01:26:50] He just delivered that monologue about the watch and his family everything

[01:26:54] Wow just powerful

[01:26:57] Oh and Carl's getting closer and closer to this walker

[01:27:00] Okay so went silent there for a little while because they had that whole big conversation

[01:27:04] in the room and now Carl has just told his dad to shoot Randall and of course they're taking

[01:27:10] Randall away and taking Carl away

[01:27:12] Oh I forgot this is the episode where Dale gets

[01:27:16] Did that walker take down that cow before he took down Dale?

[01:27:20] That seems unbelievable

[01:27:22] Oh wow so Rick's gonna execute Dale after he couldn't execute Randall

[01:27:26] Oh this scene oh Daryl does it oh and Dale lifting up his head to the barrel oh wow

[01:27:35] And we go right to the closing credits no no music no anything just quiet

[01:27:41] All right talk to you next week

[01:27:44] Oh Steve

[01:27:46] It's interesting how we're all upset about the horses that have died on this show rightly so but

[01:27:55] do we care about the cow?

[01:27:58] Eh

[01:28:00] We eat cows

[01:28:01] I eat hamburgers so like fine no I do I do care about the cow but you know yeah it was still R.I.P.

[01:28:10] cow um Jerry Gomez says yup R.I.P. Dale oh sorry Jerry I didn't read that right Jerry

[01:28:18] Gomez says yup rip Dale ripped him wide open nice one nice pun

[01:28:25] He's got the puns man

[01:28:26] Nils Cordes says I don't even know why but this is one of my favorite episodes I probably love

[01:28:31] Dale's tenaciousness I was on his side the entire time way to go brother

[01:28:35] Oh Nils

[01:28:37] Jennifer McGinley says Randall went on to play the husband of the marvellous Mrs Maisel and

[01:28:41] I must say he was looking pretty marvellous himself in that show

[01:28:45] I loved Dale on my very first watch of the Walking Dead series not so much on all subsequent watches

[01:28:50] each time I find him even more unbearable and sanctimonious than the last

[01:28:54] the last time I watched this episode he gave his for the love of humanity spiel

[01:28:58] I thought well you just fucking shut the fuck up take your fucking stupid hat back

[01:29:02] to on golden fucking pond and fucking die already Jennifer got her wish

[01:29:10] Owen Griffith says thus began my hatred for the useless Carl I view him

[01:29:14] in a similar manner to Harry Potty Harry Potty

[01:29:17] Harry Potty

[01:29:18] That's bad

[01:29:20] Kimberly never heard that before

[01:29:23] What is this Harry Potty

[01:29:27] To Harry Potter in his movies just a pain in the ass one of the best zombie deaths that being said

[01:29:32] Dale was great and led to Rick being more human in the following episode which was quite a doozy

[01:29:37] yeah that's coming up that'll be good Dale's speech for humanity was tremendous and showed us

[01:29:42] showed how us and them the group had become R.I.P. Dale

[01:29:46] hmm

[01:29:48] Here's a call from Carissa

[01:29:51] Hey Jason and Lucy it's Carissa from PDX and I am loving your guys's coverage of the rewatch

[01:30:00] for The Walking Dead and um I watched the uh season 2 episode 14 I think it is where Dale dies

[01:30:08] um just a couple of quick thoughts number one can somebody please give Carl some chores

[01:30:14] it's ridiculous how nobody watches that boy second I love how well I don't love it because

[01:30:24] Dale died but like the way Daryl has Rick's back when Rick cannot you know give Dale that mercy of

[01:30:34] killing him it kind of to me represents the beginning of their bond and their friendship

[01:30:40] brotherhood and once again Shane is just kind of standing there cowardly he can't actually do

[01:30:48] the really really tough stuff you know he can run his mouth he can act like a big bad MF-er but

[01:30:56] when it comes to really doing stuff it's like he can't do it um and he doesn't have Rick's back

[01:31:04] ultimately which we find out later um so and then I understand Dale's argument

[01:31:14] when they were discussing uh the Randall situation but I feel like sometimes civilization has put on

[01:31:20] this pedestal you know where we think about all the good things and we don't think about

[01:31:24] all the bad things like you know the colonization and the coercion and the genocide I mean those are

[01:31:31] like really huge downsides of quote-unquote civilization um but they were having a

[01:31:39] discussion it's not like Rick just decided and I thought that was actually great they

[01:31:45] were all talking about it it just so happens that most people kind of felt Randall should go

[01:31:52] um and then of course Rick tries to go through with it and little unwatched Carl comes in

[01:31:59] and kind of ruins it all so I wonder if he would have went through with it if Carl hadn't come in

[01:32:04] um I'm sure you guys will discuss on the uh I think he would have pod so anyway

[01:32:11] thanks for the coverage love you guys bye oh thank you I think I think he was swithering

[01:32:18] I think he was trying to get really hard yeah I I Randall's like crying and I don't know I think

[01:32:25] I just think the point was that Carl made a difference there but Carl definitely did but

[01:32:31] I think Rick was swithering already and I think he was probably thinking about how young Randall was

[01:32:37] yeah because that's something that Rick mentions a couple of times so yeah I think he probably would

[01:32:43] have but I think he was struggling with it yeah and when he went back and said to the group

[01:32:48] said to the group uh we're gonna keep around for a little while or whatever no one argued and I don't

[01:32:55] think they thought that's because they didn't have a say I think they were like okay they're

[01:32:58] maybe even a little relieved you know yeah they're like oh okay right we've not gone that far just

[01:33:03] yet not yet uh I really liked what you said about the downsides of civilization which I hadn't even

[01:33:10] considered um it's true I still think it's worth fighting for but it's hard to do well and like

[01:33:17] it's sort of on trial right now around the world I would say but um but uh I think that's also the

[01:33:23] story of the walking dead when they get to the commonwealth and they all the things that you

[01:33:26] mentioned colonization and I forget what else you said but the bad parts of civilization come into

[01:33:31] the yeah the conversation yeah definitely with the CRM especially um Nick Archer says this one

[01:33:40] just hit differently I think I've changed a lot as a person since the last time I watched it

[01:33:44] Jeff's face when Andrea says he's right killed me Darrell stepping in the weight of the action

[01:33:49] itself actually hit me Carl egg and Rick on it made me wonder how I would react if my own son

[01:33:54] saw me in that situation the Randall situation has always been a great thought experiment

[01:33:59] I think I'm experiencing shades of it that I missed previously I was always in the just kill him camp

[01:34:05] it's awful but it felt right now I don't know where I would have landed I feel Rick's struggle

[01:34:10] oh Nick that's really thoughtful interesting yeah yeah yeah yeah interesting yeah because if I

[01:34:16] remember right I don't know if I remember right but it feels like most listeners back then were

[01:34:21] in the kill Randall camp we've all become well I don't we've got more messages here and I haven't

[01:34:28] read ahead so we'll see yeah Laura Willie Swink says the scene in the opening with Darrell beating

[01:34:33] Randall is foreshadowing of present day Darrell in France he's not afraid to get brutal to protect

[01:34:38] the ones he's loyal to or to just blow off some steam no I'm just kidding I added that part

[01:34:43] dumbass he likes to just chill

[01:34:47] and wail into somebody uh dumbass Randall though when he told his story about his group coming

[01:34:52] across a man and his two daughters describing his daughters as real cute in the slimiest most

[01:34:56] reprehensible way Darrell definitely got the read on him she felt the same way you did he's always

[01:35:02] had a natural intuition for a nasty character probably from growing up with him sorry brother

[01:35:07] yep all right that's a quote sorry brother yep I knew I liked Darrell from the jump but this

[01:35:11] solidified my love for that grungy hillbilly without being prompted he took the burden from

[01:35:16] Rick to have to put down yet another member of their dwindling group oh Laura I wonder if it

[01:35:22] was Laura writing in the first time this season aired she's been a listener a long time yeah she's

[01:35:27] been around a long time but I don't know if that far back maybe we love her um Andy Fisher says

[01:35:34] dear Jason and Lucy oy more Randall not for long Andy uh re-watching this episode I was amazed at

[01:35:40] the look of the show by how beautiful the actors the clothes and Herschel's firm are spoiler

[01:35:46] the argument about what to be done with Randall seems overwrought especially in lieu of what

[01:35:50] happens in later seasons never has so much talk gone on about the life of one dumb teenager

[01:35:56] Rick's group hadn't encountered the endless parade of psychos yet knowing what's right ahead

[01:36:00] of them makes the Randall discussion seem a little quaint has anyone found any examples of

[01:36:05] only on the walking dead from this episode I can't wait for season three where everything

[01:36:10] when everything really starts cooking we don't we never mention it but Andy always has five pizza

[01:36:16] emojis and a ring at the end or maybe I don't know what that's a lot uh that I do oh my god did you

[01:36:24] even watch the ones who live yeah I don't remember dream dream sequence in episode one

[01:36:35] they're talking about if I turned up with five pizzas and a wedding ring okay god I've forgotten

[01:36:41] or and he just really likes pizza I could do it all all right no you're absolutely right okay

[01:36:48] here's Sam from Boston hi Sam this is one of my favorite episodes of the walking dead

[01:36:55] as odd as that may seem and it's actually one of the episodes I'll show people if they haven't

[01:37:02] watched the walking dead because it kind of has a beginning a middle and an end and you can just

[01:37:08] give them a quick synopsis of what the first season and a half is about and then they get to

[01:37:13] follow these characters as Dale pleads for Randall's life and they get to be put into this

[01:37:21] situation that us as the audience is put into as well as the characters which is you know something

[01:37:28] that Rick realized in the Nebraska episode our way of doing things is gone you have to protect

[01:37:36] yourself and those around you and you cannot hesitate and if you try to live your life the

[01:37:43] way civilization used to be when you could call 9-1-1 and get back up and the police

[01:37:49] you're going to die and maybe the others around you as well the past has to be just as dead as

[01:37:56] the walkers outside we have to let that go and we sort of see this play out as the different

[01:38:01] characters come to that realization I think Glenn sort of picked up on that and then in the

[01:38:05] Nebraska episode as well because he's hesitating it likes Dale and then at the end you know it's

[01:38:12] kind of like well I hesitated last time Dale and I almost wasn't back here for Maggie and we see

[01:38:19] Carl learning this lesson in a different way too of not killing that Walker I mean he's a little

[01:38:23] kid and at the same time by not doing that that Walker wandered into the field and killed his

[01:38:30] friend at the same time Jeffrey wanted off the show so Carl it's all good it was still a pretty

[01:38:37] horrific lesson and I do like that scene in the farmhouse I think is so in tune with how people

[01:38:44] would struggle people hesitating being ambivalent being back and forth even Carol being like I don't

[01:38:50] want to talk about this anymore do it or don't I don't want to be a part of it I'm like oh my gosh

[01:38:53] someone must have spoken to a psychologist or something this is exactly how this would go

[01:38:58] it's fantastic so I thought it was such a well done episode and I can't wait to hear what you

[01:39:05] guys have to say yay Sam thank you Sam Billy Thompson says okay okay I take it back I do

[01:39:12] not think Randall would be okay joining the group after saying some poor guy's teenage daughters

[01:39:16] were real cute I think he would just do and say anything to anyone to stay alive whether that be

[01:39:22] right or wrong this in the last episode Shane and Dale are the devil and angel on Rick's shoulder

[01:39:27] I think Rick unfortunately sides with Shane before Carl rudely interrupts just because

[01:39:33] he wants to prove he will do anything to keep Laurie and Carl safe oh yeah that's probably a

[01:39:38] big part of it because he owns Laurie no I'm just kidding yeah yeah she's his property

[01:39:45] also maybe a bit of guilt for Sophia dying is also swaying his decision yeah that's another good

[01:39:52] that would make sense why is Carl just left to mooch around all the time at his age I don't let

[01:39:57] my son do that now and we're now and we're not in the ZA that's another good point but at least

[01:40:03] we now know the Hyundai comes with a spare wheel laugh about not my favorite episode this season

[01:40:09] but still a goodie kills me to say it but Dale had such a cool death scene that he did thanks guys

[01:40:14] I mean if I was on the show and I had to go I would want a cool death scene a gory one for sure

[01:40:21] yeah yeah I would want to be a zombie I know some of the actors didn't want to oh I think that must

[01:40:26] be the most fun bit is coming back as a zombie and that'd be great I always remember Tova Feltche who

[01:40:31] played Deanna was a really great zombie um she was very good she's just good yeah oh she's wonderful

[01:40:37] Elizabeth Schwartz says I'm glad I just realized you guys are back into the rewatch because Judge

[01:40:42] Dury and Executioner is in my top five favorite Walking Dead episodes the Walking Dead often has

[01:40:47] a lot of pointless drama for entertainment's sake and I love all of it but this particular

[01:40:51] episode is so well done Jeffrey DeMunt is amazing in his portrayal of a man who's desperately trying

[01:40:56] to hold on to the last bit of humanity from the former world as he continues to see it crumble

[01:41:01] right before his eyes and even having the two people he is closest to side against him when

[01:41:06] Andrea finally agrees with him the look of gratitude on Dale's face destroys me every time

[01:41:11] as much as I sympathize with Dale his mission was in vain as I think Shane was definitely in

[01:41:15] the right this time between what had happened with Dave and Tony the story about the father

[01:41:19] and the two girls and mentioning knowing Maggie there was no doubt as to what would have happened

[01:41:24] if Rangle gets back Rangle Randall gets back to his group which he tried to do immediately when

[01:41:29] the chance came also Daryl taking the gun out of Rick's hand is such an amazing moment when looking

[01:41:34] at the series as a whole that was the moment Daryl became Rick's right-hand man anyway happy

[01:41:40] to have the rewatch back I'll take any excuse I can to watch The Walking Dead

[01:41:46] you know so I so there as you can see there are people who are siding with

[01:41:52] Shane about killing Randall here and it just reminds me how many people are so happy about

[01:41:59] Negan having been supposedly redeemed you know and so I would ask those people is redemption

[01:42:07] possible or is it not or does it just matter if you're like a charming good-looking guy and then

[01:42:12] it's okay you know yeah yeah I don't know okay here's a call from Dina Dina hey guys it's Dina

[01:42:26] um this episode god there's so much to discuss here so much but it's best done in a pub over

[01:42:33] a Guinness um so I'll just keep this really really superficial and look at Carl and Dale

[01:42:40] because obviously they're the stars of the episode um Carl has already left childhood behind you know

[01:42:47] he lost his world he lost his dad at least temporarily he lost his new friend Sophia

[01:42:53] but I think this is the episode where he really grows up he just cruelly I think taunts that

[01:42:59] walker um it's trapped I don't know something about that creature's eyes it just reminds me of

[01:43:05] a kicked dog and it's not his fault of course that Dale dies but I think his actions are the

[01:43:11] catalyst and he knows it he'll internalize that for the rest of his life and it'll shape his

[01:43:17] character his short life I mean I think we've all had moments in childhood where we did something

[01:43:22] pretty shitty that hurt someone else or at least I did which I'm not going to confess here um

[01:43:29] and I you know Shane is of course his little devil but oh my god Shane in this episode oh

[01:43:35] I just loved him loved loved loved um oh no time it's a Guinness discussion too as for Dale you

[01:43:43] know Rick doesn't kill him because Carl sees what he's about to do blah blah blah but Dale did say

[01:43:49] that Rick's sole purpose is to influence his son by using a good example or being a good example

[01:43:58] and I think Rick internalizes that in that moment um Rick shows mercy temporarily uh

[01:44:07] then Cooper oh god Cooper I mean Carl I'm watching Twin Peaks at the same time

[01:44:12] oh amazing he goes through his own darkness but ultimately he wants peace he wants Dale's vision

[01:44:18] of civilization and in turn it causes Rick to forget his vengeance and move forward to that

[01:44:26] same goal skimming the surface again no time um I think in the end it's Dale's evisceration that

[01:44:34] brings the whole group together for one moment and mind and body uh but and he influences all of them

[01:44:41] in that moment except for Shane um it's too much to go into but if you look at Glenn he's always

[01:44:48] been a father figure to Glenn and Glenn keeps his memory alive I just remember that one episode where

[01:44:54] Abraham asks how he learned to fix a vehicle and Glenn starts to say and then he says never mind

[01:45:01] and it's like a secret between Glenn and us it was just awesome um and Darryl I think in the moment

[01:45:09] it's immediate his effect on Darryl he tells him he's a decent man and sure Carol tells him this

[01:45:15] but Dale's a man he's a man and I'm sure Darryl has never heard that in his life certainly not from

[01:45:22] his father and certainly not from Merle um and it's Darryl who takes the gun and puts Dale out

[01:45:28] of his misery and I think that's the first step to him becoming a leader and I'll end with that

[01:45:34] because it always ends with Darryl for me as you know um we'll talk to you soon take care

[01:45:39] that's great oh Dina that was great yeah Dina's gonna come guest with us in the season four

[01:45:47] episode where Beth and Darryl drink moonshine right do they drink moonshine yeah they drink

[01:45:55] moonshine and listen to the mountain goats all right Rachel Teal Edward says historically I've

[01:46:01] actually found Dale really cringy and annoying not just in this episode but all around I know

[01:46:05] blast from me oh no a lot of people think that in fact I found him more like that on this rewatch

[01:46:10] than I did when I first watched it in this rewatch though I've softened to him it was actually sad

[01:46:15] to see him ripped apart which is totally shocking and gruesome by the way I loved it

[01:46:21] the problem is he's arguing super emotionally to save the boy's life but offers no alternative

[01:46:27] solutions yeah didn't he say uh what I thought he had said a couple things oh well anyone who

[01:46:36] wanted to spare him should have offered to take full responsibility for him including Rick oh

[01:46:41] walk him every day they did I think Dale did say that when they said who's gonna

[01:46:47] you know be by his side all the time or whatever when they were having a discussion he said he would

[01:46:52] some thoughts on characters now versus their future selves Carol says she wants to be left

[01:46:58] out of the whole thing she turns into an ice-cold killer soon enough and then eventually reverts back

[01:47:02] to wanting no part in any of it yeah that's good yeah uh yeah Maggie suggests keeping him as

[01:47:10] prisoner which she eventually does with Gregory until she hangs him Herschel says he leaves it

[01:47:16] with Rick which tracks with his future self generally trusting Rick's instincts and leadership

[01:47:23] Rick seems to learn that the lesson is nobody gets a chance just kill them all

[01:47:28] that definitely makes for better tv the way Laurie says quote if you think it's best to

[01:47:33] Rick sparks pure rage in me she says this same phrase multiple times in different scenarios

[01:47:40] and every single time it's so passive-aggressive and patronizing it's not firm agreement or

[01:47:44] disagreement it comes off as agreeing even though she disagrees no wonder Rick never wanted to

[01:47:49] actually fight with her pre-apocalypse you can't fight with that that's a good point big episode

[01:47:54] for Daryl he steps up in more ways than one showing us that he's observant and smart and

[01:47:58] that he's dependable willing and able to do the hard things although the violent scene with Randall

[01:48:03] at the beginning seems out of character it's becoming clear why so many people including me

[01:48:07] fell so deeply in love with him oh and we have one more call and it's from Renee our friend no way

[01:48:16] Renee love Renee hi guys this is Renee calling in from Fairburn about the walking dead

[01:48:25] I am calling in about the episode when Laurie and Shane were in the woods and she was getting hit

[01:48:34] from the back doggie style by Shane to me in my opinion Laurie is the worst ever she will always

[01:48:44] be the worst okay let me let me backtrack she's up there with Negan I can't say which one I dislike

[01:48:51] the most I guess as a woman it would be Laurie because I feel like there is no way in the hell

[01:49:01] I would ever sleep with my husband's best friend my husband's best friend is like a brother to me

[01:49:08] he's family to me and if an apocalypse broke out he's going to protect me regardless I don't I do

[01:49:16] not have to sleep with him in order for him to protect me since that is the excuse that everyone

[01:49:24] uses when it comes to Laurie that she slept with Shane because she needed someone to protect her

[01:49:33] and Rick was not there so Shane is the closest person to Rick that is awful that's that's

[01:49:41] inexcusable to me it's some boundaries that you do not cross and that is one of them what rather

[01:49:48] or not your husband's your husband is dead or alive dead or alive my husband best friend I

[01:49:56] would slap the shit out of him just like she slapped Shane when they was at the CDC and he

[01:50:02] tried to rape her she should have slapped his ass from the very beginning I mean hey she should have

[01:50:08] gotten T-dog, Merle, his racist ass, Dale anyone else get someone else to do it definitely not

[01:50:15] your husband's best friend that's Laurie like it should not be glossed over I think that's why I

[01:50:22] called in because when I listened to the podcast it's like y'all kind of glossed over I'm like no

[01:50:25] we ain't glossing over this heifer this heifer slept with her husband best friend she should

[01:50:29] have learned how to fight mama bear should have kicked in she just like Carol learn how to fight

[01:50:36] Andrea learn how to fight um Michonne learn how to fight mama bear should have kicked in but she

[01:50:43] should not have slept with Shane period point blank and I'm never changing my mind about that

[01:50:51] and I'm not going to try to change anybody else man but I want you to know my opinion she's worse

[01:50:56] Andrea awful because just just awful but not like Laurie just on a different level and I ain't

[01:51:03] gonna say Andrea awful Andrea just tried too hard she just was doing too much like I said that little

[01:51:08] lean back and all we got that little damn green purse or whatever she always had on her shoulder

[01:51:13] but Laurie

[01:51:18] alrighty peace and love bye

[01:51:21] I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Renee had some strong feelings there

[01:51:24] I don't know she seemed a little on the fence

[01:51:26] I think so tell us how you feel uh yeah that was amazing so powerful

[01:51:32] I love it I remember a walker stalker I don't know if you were doing the interview Jason it was

[01:51:38] Sarah Wayne Callies and John Bernthal and Bernthal really wanted to talk about how they'd

[01:51:44] staged that scene he's like you know it was important to me that like you know I was behind

[01:51:48] you because like you couldn't bear to look at me because you know of the rick and the betrayal and

[01:51:52] I remember Sarah Wayne Callies was like um I don't know that we need to talk about this in front of

[01:51:56] everyone and I was like he kind of laughed yeah yeah um honestly I think I brought it up but he

[01:52:03] was happy to talk about it and she was kind of embarrassed she was not she was not as into it as

[01:52:08] I recall um yeah I was thinking about this today I was thinking about how you know Rick's been

[01:52:16] yeah he she thought he was dead but you know not for that long I don't know I don't know

[01:52:22] it's hard it's hard but I think Renee what you say is is valid yeah I mean I don't know if I

[01:52:28] fully agree with you but it was fun to listen to your opinion and I can feel that you so strongly

[01:52:34] believe that and I love it all right that is our show 582 thanks so much for listening everybody

[01:52:48] man you know this episode I remember feeling um like it was exhausting and it felt that way this

[01:52:57] time too and I got into my whole thing about the possessive patriarchy and just another one of those

[01:53:04] arguments so I hope it wasn't I hope it was okay for you guys for you Lucy and for everyone I'll

[01:53:09] sleep well tonight I'll sleep okay good I'll sleep after this all right uh next episode

[01:53:15] Walking Dead season 2 episode 12 Better Angels which is a great one yeah if you want to write

[01:53:21] in or leave us a voice message about it and we hope you do you can find all our contact information

[01:53:26] at podcastica.com yeah while you're there please check out our other podcasts we have a couple um

[01:53:32] going on that I haven't mentioned all that much Extraordinary Cast with Penny and Greg covering

[01:53:38] that really funny series that's on Hulu season 2 um then on the Sandman cast Jamie and Mark are

[01:53:45] covering Dead Boy Detectives which is a Sandman spin-off that's on Netflix oh brilliant but uh

[01:53:52] what was I gonna say I we recorded this great Lord of the Flies episode with uh yeah her daughter for

[01:53:59] Yellow Jackets but it's not out yet because Wendy needs to edit it but she said she was going to this

[01:54:03] weekend so that should be out pretty soon you think this episode is made possible by patreon

[01:54:08] supporters like Aaron Maynard who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kibasi thank

[01:54:14] you Aaron I appreciate that we do a call-in show most months and I think this month um because

[01:54:23] Dina had written in about that episode where Daryl and Beth drink moonshine and play never have I ever

[01:54:30] I think we're gonna go and play a game of never have I ever on the call-in show

[01:54:36] so that'll be this month yeah all right that is our show thanks for listening don't get bit Owen Griffiths