584: "Better Angels" (TWD S2E12 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Huh... The Cast of Us AHH! Oof! Damn you for making me do this shit! This was you! Not me! You did this to us! This was you, not me! Not me! Not me! The Last of Us A podcast dedicated to the show.

[00:01:10] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 584. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, season 2, episode 12, Better Angels. Better Angels, and we have a special guest with us today. It's my friend Aaron Peterson.

[00:01:29] He's a friend and a long-time TV and entertainment podcaster like us. Welcome Aaron, glad to have you on. Hola! Does that mean I'm one of the angels? Is that what... We'll find out by the end. You may be an angel or a devil.

[00:01:44] So, Aaron's done many podcasts, maybe most notably The Hollywood Outsider, which is a cool entertainment podcast that covers everything about TV and movies. Also, I noticed you'll review movies and then you'll get quoted on posters sometimes?

[00:02:01] Yeah, yeah. I'm a accredited film critic, so I've been on a few posters and a few advertisements. I was on... one of the wild ones was watching a John Wick commercial and then my quote popped up and I'm like, what? Amazing! Yeah, that was pretty cool. That's incredible.

[00:02:16] That is cool. They wouldn't put my quotes up there. They never use the negative ones. The Walking Dead turned us down. I don't remember the movie, but there was a movie where it was actually a negative review and then they asked if they could use my quote.

[00:02:28] And I'm like, sure. Because they cherry pick it, right? So they find nice, tangible, fun stuff in there and okay. You say one nice thing and they put it up. Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:42] Well, also the other big one I know about is the award-winning Blacklist Exposed, which covered all 10 seasons of the Blacklist. And did you guys get pretty friendly with the show? We did. We were invited to the set. We went and visited the set.

[00:02:56] We were invited to the writers room. We met all the cast, interviewed most of them. I actually interviewed all of them before it was all said and done. That's amazing. I'm still friends with the showrunner. We knew all about his next show before it was even officially announced.

[00:03:14] What that tells me is that we're doing something wrong, Lissy. I can't imagine what. You're literally on the Walking Dead. Aren't you on this episode? This very specific episode we're talking about? The next one. Oh, next one. That's where I peaked and then it was downhill.

[00:03:30] That was season two and then no more. Actually, that was in season three too. I just ventured into true crime. That's my latest podcast. Inspired by a true story. We actually take a movie that's inspired by a true story and then talk about the real events.

[00:03:47] What's it called? Inspired by a true story. We'll mention this again at the end of the show. Do you have a single site that people can go to find your stuff? TheHollywoodOutsider.com Don't go to HollywoodOutsider.com. No, definitely don't. That's something else.

[00:04:09] I want to make another announcement before we get into this week's episode, which is an iconic episode. We'll get into it soon. I do want to mention that Lucy and Peter have decided to start their own podcast. Do you want to talk about what that's going to be?

[00:04:28] Yeah, we're going to be hosting a podcast called Let It Rip. It's going to be all about the bear going into season three. We're just finishing up our season one and two preparation rewatch and we're super excited.

[00:04:42] We'll be doing one episode covering a general overview of seasons one and two before going into season three. I think episode by episode, although they're all coming out at once, at least in the UK. I'm not sure whether to do one or one and two.

[00:05:00] If it goes well, we'll go back and do individual episode rewatches, but this seemed more feasible with the time we've got. We are both keen cooks, so we will also be doing a little bit of cooking and seeing how that translates into a podcast format.

[00:05:15] If you guys don't know, The Bear is this critically acclaimed show. I don't know what it's on. It's on FX and Hulu. Yeah, and it's about this Chicago sandwich restaurant and the family that runs it and everything. It's quite something.

[00:05:36] It'll be really cool to hear what you guys do. John Bernthal has a role on it. He does. He is amazing in it. We just paused before an episode in season two that's a little longer than the others.

[00:05:51] We're going to hopefully get stuck into that tomorrow that John Bernthal plays a big role in. I'm super excited. If you haven't watched The Bear already, I thoroughly recommend that you do.

[00:06:00] It is a lot of people shouting and it is quite stressful, but it's also very beautiful and there's a lot of amazing stuff in there. Yeah, I really think that you and Peter should just shout at each other the whole time because it's actually covering The Bear.

[00:06:14] Wait till you hear us recording The Kitchen. It will probably just be shouting at one another. So yeah, we'll see. Make sure you call each other chef a lot. Yes, chef. Behind, behind! All right, so let's get into it. It's The Walking Dead season two, episode 12, Better Angels.

[00:06:33] Aaron, I asked you which episode you'd like to guest on and you chose this one. Why did that spring to mind? This is one of your favorites? Definitely one of my favorites. John Bernthal is just fantastic, enigmatic. I think he really just runs the gamut of emotion.

[00:06:51] And, you know, as you go on the show, the more and more seasons that get behind you, the more and more you're like, Shane was kind of right on a lot of things.

[00:07:00] And maybe not in his plot to assassinate Rick, but overall, in terms of his reasoning, I understand where he's coming from more as the show goes on, which I think is fascinating.

[00:07:10] So he's just like that character that really permeated the show the first couple seasons and really resonates as you get past the show. Probably, I think, more than Glenn, which I know a lot of people would say Glenn is their favorite or whatever.

[00:07:23] I think Shane is just the most realistic of characters in the show. It's interesting too to watch. I think one of the things Shane brings is a debate too, right? Sure. And what would he do?

[00:07:42] What would he have done in all these different situations if he was still alive? But coming back to it for the rewatch, what really stands out is just John Bernthal's performance, which I think I appreciated as much the first time as I have now.

[00:07:55] Especially seeing how he's gone on and done all these great things afterwards. So yeah, I agree with you. He's just really, really captivating to watch.

[00:08:02] Did you notice that while you're watching him, especially when he's having that fight with himself in the barn with the kid, it's all with Randall. And he's having that no dialogue spoken, right? No dialogue is spoken in that scene for a big portion of it.

[00:08:19] And he's just doing all these things with his face and his mannerisms and twitching and da-da-da-da. And all I kept thinking, if he would have lived past this episode, he would have been Frank Castle. Because this is very similar to how he counter-proached that.

[00:08:35] Yeah, like, I mean, I was thinking about it, right? He killed Otis and we came to the conclusion that that was the right thing to do because either both of them was going to die and Carl too, or one of them would make it.

[00:08:49] And Otis refused to let Shane go, so Shane did what he had to do. But then, but he still, he killed someone for what he thought was the greater good. Then he killed Randall for what he thought was the greater good.

[00:09:02] Then he was about to kill Rick for what he thought was the greater good. There's a pattern here and it's a very Punisher-like pattern. So before we get into more of the meat of it, Lucy in general, what'd you think? Oh, just, I loved it.

[00:09:17] I remember at the time someone I knew vaguely on Facebook posted something like, is it just me or did The Walking Dead just shift into a completely different gear this episode?

[00:09:28] And I'm like, yeah, I think this might be a watershed moment for the show actually, especially for Rick's character and where he goes after this. I think this is the first thing that really breaks Rick, like on a fundamental level is this, this, the conclusion to this episode.

[00:09:43] And it's so well done. And that scene with him and Shane just circling each other, which I'm sure we'll get to is just masterful. It's so well done. So well done. A lot of different levels. Oh, wonderful. Just wonderful. So yeah, no, I'm psyched to talk about it.

[00:10:00] Yeah, yeah, I loved it. I thought it was moving and intense and thrilling and cinematic. Very well directed. All right. So let's get into our points. Aaron, guest of honor, you wanna go first? First talking point is I want to talk about the relationship between Carl and Shane.

[00:10:22] Because I find it kind of beautiful because there's a moment where Shane goes to Rick and just say, and tells him you need to talk to your boy, you know, because he's struggling with his guilt and thinking that it's his fault that Dale's dead and everything else.

[00:10:38] And Rick, of course, kind of brushes him off and I've got more important things to do and I don't have to wait and blah, blah, blah. And Shane alludes to, I think he says it directly actually is, so that's more important than your son. Okay, whatever.

[00:10:52] And Shane's there for him. Like Shane still is always there for him no matter what he feels about Rick, no matter what his relationship with Lori.

[00:10:59] And I find that beautiful because that to me is a guy who truly loves this kid and it has nothing to do with Lori or anything else. It's just, I love you, Carl. And I'm going to be there for you.

[00:11:14] You take precedent over whatever else is in my head. And I think Rick's shown throughout the show he often will put Carl aside. And I often wonder would Carl actually be alive if Shane would have been the one that got Rick, you know what I mean?

[00:11:27] So that relationship is my first point. I just find it to be a beautiful relationship and I think it's honestly in many ways better than Rick and Carl. I'm a sucker for people who aren't themselves parents taking on roles with children like that.

[00:11:46] Like I've got a lot of kids in my life who I wouldn't necessarily give them a gun. Just going to put that out there. Any of my friends listening, I'm not going to give your children guns.

[00:11:56] But I think it's important to represent that there can be these meaningful relationships that are influential. And I don't think Shane is a negative influence in Carl's life. I don't think we see that. There's no evidence for that.

[00:12:11] And I think you're right that what we see here is actually Carl still feels able to tell Shane something that he isn't able to tell his parents. And I'll say Shane does the right thing by telling Rick as well.

[00:12:21] That's another sign that he's actually taking that role seriously. He does the right thing. Because when a kid asks you, please don't tell, you have to take that with a grain of salt. And he didn't promise not to either. He didn't promise not to either.

[00:12:37] He said come back and tell me what you're going to say. Yeah, it strikes me that he, Carl and Laurie all had kind of nice goodbye-ish scenes. Apart from the one where Carl fucking shoots him. But he's a zombie by that point anyway so it doesn't matter.

[00:12:50] But yeah, it was a nice kind of beat to remind us that he's not all bad. Yeah, I mean one thing that I really like about Shane is he's really the first, aside from Merle, the first antagonist of The Walking Dead.

[00:13:04] But he's very complicated and complex and human because even just his relationship with Rick, he loves Rick and he hates Rick. He wants Rick's approval but he also doesn't approve of Rick. And he wants to be Rick. He wants to take Rick's place with his wife and son.

[00:13:23] And all of that seems kind of contradictory but it's also kind of relatable. We've all had people that we're jealous of, that we like. Not to the level of Shane who takes it to the extreme, to the point where you kill the guy.

[00:13:38] But it is in some way relatable I think the way he is. He's human and complicated. But wouldn't you say, I mean, I feel like we're positing Shane as the bad guy, right? Antagonist, antagonist, antagonist.

[00:13:52] And as you see as the seasons go on, Rick very much does exactly the same things that Shane does. In the name of protection, in the name of survival, da da da da. Is he really an antagonist or is he, he wasn't in a coma for so long.

[00:14:10] So he was actually out there in it and he's just already where Rick goes later. He's got a jump on him. So maybe I can go into my first point. Is that alright with you?

[00:14:24] I'll go to a point about this because I think you and I are in different wavelengths about Shane which is totally good. I love when people have different opinions about things.

[00:14:33] But I think for one thing Shane kind of, I don't even want to say kind of, he sexually assaulted Lori at the CDC. And that's something that Rick never would have done to anyone. Okay, you're right on that one. Honestly, I forgot about that point. You're right.

[00:14:53] That's just, I mean, it's not the totality of the conversation but it's just one thing that comes to mind for me where they're not the same exactly. But I do agree with you that in a lot of other ways Rick ended up being like Shane or even darker.

[00:15:09] Like Rick would just kill someone that he didn't trust at one point without any like consulting anybody else. He shot at one of the Kingdom guys just because it was a random guy out there. He just shot at him, didn't know anything about him.

[00:15:26] You know, he wanted to go into the Grady Hospital where Beth was being held captive and just kill everyone without really knowing if the situation there. So yeah, I think he did. But I don't like that. I mean it is complicated.

[00:15:40] Like there is an argument to be made and I think a good one that this is a different world and it requires some cutthroat decisions sometimes. But my point is losing their humanity.

[00:15:54] So at Dale's eulogy Rick says Dale was talking about the group losing their humanity and that the group was broken and Rick wanted to unbreak it.

[00:16:02] And said from now on we're going to do it his way and his way was to be civilized and peaceful and use words to work out your differences. But this eulogy is intercut with them just beating the fuck out of the zombies, right?

[00:16:15] And you can tell they're getting their rage out. And also just it's saying, no Rick, this is not that kind of a world. Like you know the situation isn't going to allow you guys to do what Dale wants right now.

[00:16:30] And then by the end of the episode Rick of course kills Shane and the whole season Shane's been criticizing Rick for not being built for this world. And Shane's been I think because of Shane that pushed Rick more towards being built for the world.

[00:16:46] He maybe he would have had the nerve to shoot Sophia zombie Sophia if Shane hadn't been riding in the whole time or killed Tony and Dave in the bar. And now he's screaming here damn you for making me do this Shane.

[00:17:01] So I think the point is Rick wasn't built for this world but he's changed now because of Shane. Ironically he like I think he did you know Shane is like you you need to have the guts to kill the threats.

[00:17:14] And then it ended up being Shane who was the threat. And it reminds me of how the Joker and Batman are always saying they made each other.

[00:17:21] It's almost like Shane helped make Rick like you were saying at the beginning Lucy like Rick has it's a turning point for him. So he started off saying let's do things Dale way Dale's way ends up killing Shane next episode Rick says this isn't a democracy anymore.

[00:17:35] I think that is totally something Shane would say. And and we are going to watch as we do the rewatch how much Rick takes on characteristics of his vanquished foes.

[00:17:46] And I think this sets him down a dark path and in my opinion not a good one it sets him down the path of losing his humanity until finally when Carl dies and Rick turns a corner because Carl sends him that letter saying we need to be more peaceful.

[00:18:02] We need to bring the saviors in and not kill them. And and Rick decides to jail Negan instead of kill him. And then ultimately with everything that happens between Rick and Michonne and the ones who live Rick is saved. He regains his humanity back again.

[00:18:17] And then one last point on this the title better angels of this episode is from Abraham Lincoln's inaugural address of 1861. He was trying to prevent the Civil War. He said we're not enemies but friends.

[00:18:28] We must not be enemies though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection the mystic cords of memory stretching from every battlefield and Patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land will yet swell the course of the Union when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature.

[00:18:49] So he was aiming for peace to focus on what we have in common to connect to basically chill out and be friends.

[00:18:56] And that just reminds me of Michonne and the ones of live saying I did we didn't give up on love and I think in the end they did end up doing things Dale's way at the Commonwealth, but there's a lot more darkness to come before that.

[00:19:11] And I do like I said, maybe getting dark is necessary here at the beginning but only until they could get it together to rebuild the infrastructure that allowed them to go back to being more civilized and and like Dale said settle their differences with words and things like that.

[00:19:26] So I just feel like this whole series is a journey of them losing their humanity and regaining it back at the end. There's a sense in this episode that they're on the cusp of regaining it.

[00:19:35] There's a sense that Rick's like at the start kind of relieved in a way not that Dale is dead. He's clearly sad about that, but when he's like saying that, you know, they're going to take Randall out again, there's there. It seems like he's lighter.

[00:19:48] He's like up made the wrong call first time should have done this the first time we're doing it now this way that they're like looking at setting up the house for winter. It's also civilized.

[00:19:57] It's also social and it's all about to come crashing down is really funny watching it funny as in weird watching it knowing that like by the time the sun comes up the next day everything's going to be in ruins.

[00:20:11] It feels like it feels like a dream before a nightmare. I don't know. It's a strange strange tone to have.

[00:20:18] It's like when you're kind of like when you're you're an addict and you're like we're going to turn this around and then all the needles are out that night. Clean. Yeah, that's a dark analogy, but you know, it's just didn't work out.

[00:20:33] It didn't last very long that yeah, nice idea. Yeah, everyone seems to find a new sense of kind of common purpose and it just goes to absolute shit.

[00:20:42] Yeah, but so Aaron like as you can see I don't I don't think I have the same totally the same feelings about Shane but sort of but I mean what I welcome you to say what you think.

[00:20:56] I'm not justifying his behavior but for clarification purposes correct me if I'm because it's been a while since I saw season one. I did watch a few episodes before this episode, but I didn't go all the way back to season one.

[00:21:06] Yeah, but if I'm remembering right he's drunk and he tries to rape Laurie and then doesn't doesn't happen and then he basically just he's overwhelmed with guilt shortly thereafter. Right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think he she scratched him right and then he went away.

[00:21:23] Okay, so I remember that. Yeah, I would say he does show some remorse. I wouldn't say he goes as far as apologizing but he does show remorse for it, which is interesting.

[00:21:34] I just think he's emotionally unstable, you know, like he that's another thing about him and that's almost separate from his idea that you need to be more ruthless in this world that he kind of shoots himself in the foot there by by being so just.

[00:21:54] Like a hothead that he can't control his own emotions like being more ruthless and not being able to control your emotions are two separate things, but he doesn't do himself any favors when he flies off the handle like that because then you just sort of equate that with oh your whole thing is wrong and I don't think his whole thing is wrong.

[00:22:10] I think it's more layered than that. I this is just my take on the character as a whole is that he is, you know, everyone in this whole show is mentally broken in some way or breaking in some way right because it's a it's an insane world.

[00:22:25] Just yeah, I can't imagine the overwhelming angst of grief and suffering you have to deal with and contend with and I.

[00:22:32] No one ever wants to put themselves in Shane's shoes and I get that especially with things like the he and Lori and the drunken situation that's not one people want to put in their shoes.

[00:22:42] I just I wanna I think it's worth noting that the character is completely mentally.

[00:22:51] Ravaged by that point, you know his life as he knows it has been upended and he's just he's losing his mind and I think you see that throughout the second season where he is struggling to.

[00:23:04] Protect everyone and have people go forward in a path that makes sense that they've been doing up until that time and Rick is the constant. Problem in the way I guess anybody else has that conflict of I love him though.

[00:23:20] I mean he's like my brother and but that was my family too and no one wants to admit that I'm part of this family too.

[00:23:27] That's why I do like the scene with Lori and Shane in this episode because it does kind of like restore the humanity and then he goes and screws it up.

[00:23:35] But still it doesn't kind of restore a little bit of the humanity to his whole their whole situation to some degree. I agree with you Aaron that that's a nice scene with him and Lori but what's interesting is that Shane then takes it completely the wrong way.

[00:23:51] You know I mean it could have been this lovely beat of like I have a chance with her and we are yeah and he takes as she fucking loves me man or something and then like goes with it.

[00:24:00] And it's so it's so heartbreaking because that's like a so you're saying there's a chance. So you're saying it's not done done.

[00:24:10] It's well intentioned on Lori's part I think because I was watching it like oh I feel like she gives him signals but looking at that scene I was like you know what that was she was doing her best there but it I think it precipitates the whole.

[00:24:24] He's fractured in the head. Yeah he's splitting like in front of our eyes he's splitting and Lori I think is always a bit willfully ignorant of Shane's full capacity for I'm not I don't want to say evil but for bad behavior that sounds so like trivial.

[00:24:44] We see it a bit when she's like Lady Macbeth and Rick saying you know you've got to take care of Shane but if there's still part of her that doesn't see the full level of darkness. And that becomes apparent when she's so shocked that Rick does kill Shane.

[00:24:57] Yeah there's an innocence and a willful ignorance there that I think is difficult. I thought like I really liked that scene too.

[00:25:05] It felt like those times when you're you have some kind of a problem with somebody and finally you're like okay I we just need to fully admit our own culpability in this and there's a relief to that and an honesty to it.

[00:25:22] And she's just trying to diffuse the situation and be gracious to it take responsibility.

[00:25:27] I made a mess of things I put you and Rick at odds and I'm like how did you make a mess of things in my opinion she made things by not telling Rick what happened earlier and trying to keep it okay without it being all out in the open.

[00:25:44] And being unclear with Shane when he said he was going to leave and she asked him to stay but didn't say didn't make it clear that she didn't want anything with him anyway. So doesn't justify his behavior later obviously.

[00:25:55] Yeah but in this moment he's she's thanking him she's empathizing I know it must be hard I don't even know if this is your baby like she's still unclear I feel like maybe she's unclear herself but she's at least trying to diffuse the situation and my take on what Shane took from that was wow I you know I feel more connected to you now but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do that.

[00:26:14] I know but I also hear that you're saying that it's over between us and I don't like that so he was still spinning out on it you know.

[00:26:22] Yeah I'm not gonna yeah it's yeah it's a it's also one of those scenes where like it's two actors at the top of their game who clearly have great chemistry.

[00:26:34] Yeah I felt that with the Andrew Lincoln scene as well at the end there's always something when it's someone's final episode where you're like the energy they take to these scenes with people is there like final scenes and we had that a bit last episode with Dale's final episode as well.

[00:26:48] It was like oh people are really bringing their bringing their all here.

[00:26:52] And Bernthal said in some interview with I think Entertainment Weekly he's like yeah Andy Lincoln and I we were just like let's do this for us buddy you know they were just like really hyping themselves up for that last scene together.

[00:27:01] It was like it was and I don't mean this as an insult it's like peak alpha male energy but in a great way like it's two alphas going to town just like nah and the circle oh it's brilliant it's so well done it's so well done.

[00:27:15] But if you think about it Rick was just a lioness of B that whole conversation because you know Shane was coming down off his insanity so to speak and Rick's just like I'm gonna stab you now we're done. Yeah Rick is just manipulating.

[00:27:27] Rick is ice if Shane is like fiery Rick is icy in that scene and it's scarier in some ways I think. Like Shane is a hothead and Rick I think is. Cold-blooded killer. Yeah.

[00:27:41] The way it was staged where Rick had his back to him and he kind of there's a part of Rick that knows he doesn't know for sure that's gonna that Shane's not going to shoot him in the back of the head you know.

[00:27:55] He there's a little bit of fatalism there like if that's the way it's got to be that's the way it got to be and then Shane has the gun pointed at him and no no then Shane puts his gun down and go shoot me.

[00:28:07] And Rick says I'm not going to do that and he did end up killing him so I'm like well why not just shoot him right now but I don't know I guess because right after that Shane then just lays it out on the line you're bad you're weak your son's weak.

[00:28:19] I'm be a better. Your woman's broken and your son's weak. I'm like yeah I'll be better and I just like. I'm a better father than you Rick.

[00:28:27] That's right right right when Rick's like okay he's got to go and then he tricks him and it almost looked like he had turned Shane around there you know so then it was like oh.

[00:28:37] He did turn him around that's what I'm saying like Rick still killed him even though he was coming around.

[00:28:42] Yeah and I and then there's a part of me that's like Rick you lost your humanity there you you took shit you took Shane's lesson here you go Shane that's what you get right Rick took your advice and got rid of the threat but I do I don't know if I would say I 100% support Rick in that but I would not condemn him because Shane killed is just a killer and Rick Rick's days could be numbered you know he just tried to kill him.

[00:29:07] So my reading of that scene was Rick knowing what he had to do he knew he had to kill Shane but he wanted to make it so there was absolutely no doubt that he had to do it.

[00:29:20] He had to make Shane say the things that Rick already knew but he needed to make it so he had no choice and that's why I think he goaded him and that's why I like that he did that was because as Rick couldn't live with the idea that he might have done the wrong thing.

[00:29:35] So I think he needed Shane to show his absolute true colors in order to justify what he then went on to do that was my reading of it anyways he was goading him because he needed to know that his instincts were right and I think you can see the kind of cop that Rick would have been in those moments as well in terms of the way he does a lot of like talking him down and de-escalating.

[00:30:00] Yeah I just thought it was so well done but to me I think Nick who's Nick I think Rick knew that going into that Rick's twin one person was coming out yet Nick it was bad Rick it was Nick he knew the only one person was coming back and he knew it would be him but I think he there's this bit at the end of the Harry Potter books where it's like go on Voldemort try for some remorse or something and spoilers for Harry Potter anyone who's you know not read them yet.

[00:30:28] And I think there is a bit of Rick there that is just like I just need to absolutely confirm that you are the person I think you are and he shows it and I think calling I really didn't enjoy weak boy and broken women I was just like oh that's so like no like they're not they're not.

[00:30:46] Yeah and I don't even know if Shane really believes that. No he's just talking Shane. It's a tense situation. Talking alphabolics of like well I'm going to fix everything. The whole point where I'm a better father than you I agree with him at that point.

[00:31:01] Like I just do. I'm sorry I just do. He's definitely more present I'll give him that. But he makes time he stops doing what he's doing Rick's always like well Coral I gotta deal with everybody else well bitch I'm here too.

[00:31:14] But you know it's interesting because this episode had what I remembered as one of the most touching scenes between Rick and Carl. Oh that's when am I. In the opening of the loft. And who caused that? Shane. Shane told him and but to his credit he went.

[00:31:32] He listened. Oh there's a problem here I need to go but then you listen to this speech and it's not all that inspiring he's like well son. I'm gonna die your mom's gonna die. We're all gonna die.

[00:31:45] And we're all in danger and I don't know how long we're gonna live here's a gun. And at the end he just goes I'm tired. His speech versus Shane's speech.

[00:31:53] Shane's speech is like what a father should say Rick's is what your shitty uncle who never shows up on time would say. I wouldn't be that harsh. But Shane I mean he's like you take this gun and I thought that was hilarious because like.

[00:32:09] Dude it's not your place to give Paul the gun. He's gonna get shot with it. Yeah and then you're gonna get shot with it. But then Rick does the same thing and by the way doesn't consult with Laurie beforehand. Of course not. Gives him the gun.

[00:32:23] Alright well let's get back to the sort of format and Lucy I think it's your turn. Well I had that Rick and Carl scene as a point because I also remembered it being very iconic pretty much for the silhouettes in the barn.

[00:32:38] The two of them sitting looking over everything and him being handed the gun and the music. Like it's a very beautiful scene. I really loved Chandler Riggs giving it his all in the previous scene with Shane going I'm never touching another gun again.

[00:32:52] And I've just written in brackets till later tonight when he will kill Shane. He tried. The kid tried. A few minutes later. Flash forward. I bet you're wondering how I got here. I think I'm in the midway point. I don't think it's a terrible parenting scene.

[00:33:13] I think it's very much Rick and Carl's dynamic that they have.

[00:33:19] Like it's something that I watched and I was like oh yeah you can see this kind of Rick is quite honest with Carl at points about when things are difficult or when he feels weak or when he doesn't know what to do.

[00:33:32] And I think that can be difficult as a kid to hear. Like to hear a parent say I don't actually know what's happening. I'm tired. All we can do is keep ahead of this. But it's also valuable in that it is honest.

[00:33:44] And I've just written without getting into any spoilers that this scene hits particularly hard after the ones who live and what happens to Carl in later seasons of this show. Yeah. Because Rick is saying something about death will surprise you or something.

[00:34:01] You know that I will die, your mom will die and then as we know Carl ends up being the one dying and Rick's the one who gets surprised by that. And so it just gives this scene another element of sadness because of that. Yeah.

[00:34:17] And there's a moment in The Ones Who Live where Rick talks about his father and I gave it a bit of shit on the podcast. When the fuck did we ever hear about Rick's father? This is bollocks. This is retconning.

[00:34:30] I still maintain the things that we learn about his father in that monologue are a bit of a retcon but I will admit that in season two there's a lot more in it about father and son and about Rick's relationship with his father and his proxy father Herschel.

[00:34:42] And I like that he gives some information, some kind of wisdom to Carl that his father had passed on to him here. I think that's a nice sense of like continuance.

[00:34:50] But yeah I'm with you Aaron in the sense that I think Shane rightly recognized that Rick was dropping the ball with his own kid and called it out early. And he did and I do think Shane did the right thing telling Rick about that interaction that they had.

[00:35:08] And yeah I've never really thought about how Carl must feel about Shane's death.

[00:35:17] I don't think they did a good job addressing that because in my mind, I mean you know my wife is the step parent to my kids and she helped raise them and they think of her as their mom like they do.

[00:35:28] And so in my mind that would just be, I know they touched on it a little bit on the show but I think it would be an absolutely destructive force to always wonder did dad really murder this guy who did nothing but love and protect me as long as I know?

[00:35:45] Because Carl hasn't seen what we've seen as viewers. He's not seen the darkness that we've seen. And I think it would have carried over through the entire show, not just like a few episodes. Well I think Carl probably picked up on Shane being a bit reckless maybe.

[00:36:02] I don't know maybe not. He seemed to want to model Shane's behavior. But I will stand up and say I think Rick's been a better father than you guys do. I mean he was going to give him all his blood.

[00:36:18] He would have sat there and given him all his blood until he died if he had to you know? So I think. I don't think Rick's a bad father. I'm just gonna put that out there. I don't think that.

[00:36:29] The thing is he tries to like what I think is Rick's maybe flaw is he wants to save everyone and take responsibility for everyone. And so he spreads himself thin. He wants to be everyone's father. And that's where my frustration with him.

[00:36:45] It was always a problem with me in watching the show. Like Rick as a dad was always a problem with me because I have kids and if I were in that situation they would be the first priority. Always. Don't get me wrong. Everybody else matters too.

[00:37:00] And I love that he's protector of a group. But he doesn't just drop everything when his kid needs him. Sometimes the group will come first and I just never like as a dad I didn't like that aspect. Yeah. I think that's totally fair. I think it's quite a.

[00:37:14] Yeah. I think also it's quite a. I don't know. Is this going to sound offensive? I hope not. I think it's quite a cop mentality as well in the sense of his whole job is me to protect and serve. Sure. The wider population.

[00:37:26] So I think it's an under. I agree with you Aaron completely. But yeah it's that. It's like cops going to cop. Like I don't know. It's that thing of I think it would be more like Rick.

[00:37:36] You heard that from being a cop or did he become a cop because he was already like that. Become a cop because that's. Or both. Yeah. I do think it would be very annoying to be married to Rick in this era.

[00:37:46] I think he improves as time goes on but I can see why Laurie struggled in that relationship at times with that prioritizing stuff. I think that's that's difficult. Well because he would go out and just insert himself.

[00:37:58] And like you know we've talked about this whole possessive patriarchy thing and I think one way that does fit into that is he just presumes to be the leader without even asking. I don't remember anybody voting him. He just presumes. The sheriff before. Yeah.

[00:38:13] And then and so he's out there like taking full responsibility going out on missions and then he goes back to Laurie and frets about it. Oh did I do the right thing? Yeah. She has to. Laurie's just like. Yeah. Like that's a lot.

[00:38:29] And then your kid's like you're just a mom and she's like fuck off. You know what's funny about her character? I'm sorry go ahead.

[00:38:36] I just on the other hand in his defense like I'm sure a lot of people were like oh I'm so glad somebody stepped up to try to lead us because this situation is so fucked up and I can't do it.

[00:38:49] You know and there are people who are just like when they were deciding what to do with Randall just let Rick. Carol's like I don't fucking want this responsibility. Oh Carol how times will change. She becomes the best leader of the show honestly. I know.

[00:39:03] But it's by watching and taking everything in and kind of growing as a character. She got the best growth of anybody on that show. Absolutely.

[00:39:11] I was thinking about one of you said earlier I think it was maybe Jason you described Shane as ruthless and I think that's really right but I think there's also a bit of recklessness.

[00:39:21] And you can be ruthless without being reckless because I've often said Carol is reckless but maybe not always ruthless but I think ruthless is a great word for Shane and that he is he that's the quality he has that I think wavers with Rick sometimes is ruthlessness.

[00:39:35] I think Rick struggles with having that complete through line of not having any qualms about doing things. We see him oscillate throughout the series often in frustrating ways whereas with Shane it's just that grit of like nah I did the right thing.

[00:39:51] I think at Rick's most ruthless he's more ruthless than Shane. Yeah. I wonder if Shane would have stabbed all the saviors in the head. Shane would have been like Rick chill out. Geez.

[00:40:07] I don't know I think Negan is very much like what Shane would have been if Shane stuck around for a while. I really think that's who Shane would have become. It's just Negan. But Negan has more control over his emotions.

[00:40:22] Well but again I keep coming back to like that was a bad point in that guy's particular life like everything that he thought he was doing was completely just ripped apart and shredded and it was by his best friend like his head was just not in a good space like I think you give that guy another season he can get his head straight.

[00:40:41] You know he was just. We only saw him at that point in time. Yeah. It's hard to know for sure. Hard to know. He was dipping his fries in Rick's ketchup. He was. Pre-apocalypse. I want to come back to that.

[00:40:54] I wanted to talk about Laurie because one thing I noticed rewatching. Okay well I didn't want Laurie to be part of it but we'll. Oh you can just do it aside. No no no.

[00:41:03] It's a point I think is important because I know I was hard on the character when the show originally aired. Rewatching I have a lot more empathy to her. Me too. And I don't know if you guys have that as well. Some yeah more I would say. Yeah.

[00:41:17] I appreciate her performance more this time around and I think that she there's more layers to it than I appreciated the first time around. And I think some of that comes from me being like why Rick sometimes prioritizes wrong and that is frustrating.

[00:41:31] Andrea I've got less time for but Laurie I think I'm getting a little more sympathetic. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed on that. I remember watching it the first time around and thinking I like Andrea. Why do they have to kill her off so early in season three?

[00:41:45] It's season three right? Yeah. Season three. And then I'm rewatching this now and I'm like I wish Laurie would have lived longer and Andrea would have died sooner. You know? Yeah. Nothing against the performances. There isn't anything. It's just how the characters are written.

[00:42:00] Actually honestly the more we've talked about it maybe this isn't definitive yet but it feels like what Lucy and I are coming to a little bit with Andrea is kind of is the performance. It is. Laurie Holden has a smugness to her.

[00:42:17] And I really like she seems like a nice lady.

[00:42:20] Like I just I don't I hate despite coverage of Fear the Walking Dead I really don't like being down on actors and I really try not to be but there is something about the way she's being directed in that role and choosing to perform it that is so smarmy that it just it just makes it unbearable to watch.

[00:42:39] There's an element there. Yeah. Yeah. Laurie Holden still listening to the podcast like. I know. I'm sorry Laurie. Laurie and I were friends during Walker Stalker. Oh she seems so nice. I like Laurie Holden. I'm on your side. I think it was the way it was written.

[00:42:55] So what's your next point Aaron? Um the well one it connects to Andrea. I like the scene with her and Glenn. Yes. And I think in this particular episode because of the Shane of it all or so much Shane.

[00:43:11] It's all Shane that got lost a little bit and I thought it was a really good moment because you kind of see just Glenn in a vulnerable state.

[00:43:24] You see her I think trying to relate to him but also not putting their guard down too much and I just I just like that whole scene where they're working on RV. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:43:36] And I mean I had a point about because we are sort of following how we see Laurie and Andrea this time and it was just Laurie and Andrea scorecards.

[00:43:47] And I think Laurie offering to sleep on the living room floor and resisting when Herschel offers his room as they're going into the place is a point in her favor. Right?

[00:43:58] I think it's important to point out nice things that Laurie does because I think sometimes we have certain things that stand out about a character and then the character just in our minds becomes just that. But she's she's got Andrea you keep calling her Laurie.

[00:44:09] No I am talking about Laurie that Laurie. Oh Laurie Laurie Laurie when they brought yeah I'm all confused. Oh yeah Laurie and Laurie.

[00:44:17] When they brought Laurie you know they said Herschel's like you can sleep in my room because they were going to sleep in the house and she said no.

[00:44:25] So but also trying to diffuse the situation with Shane I mean she could have handled that a little better but I think all in all that was a positive move.

[00:44:32] And then with Andrea just trying to help poor Glenn who's feeling bad about having sided with against Dale on Randall and she says I have my share of regrets but I think he knew how much we cared for him.

[00:44:50] And she's just really trying to care for Glenn and be kind and I thought that was really sweet and nice. And even in her performance there I just I had nothing but love and Andrea for the that scene. It's such a nice moment.

[00:45:02] Well and to to your point Lucy is yes sometimes I think the character of Andrea comes across as smarmy and kind of like kind of roll rolling her eyes to some degree what characters say and do.

[00:45:15] And in that moment she's very much you know what this is this is a guy who's hurting and I'm going to be there for him.

[00:45:21] And she does and she doesn't do it by some ridiculously out of character element where she gives him a heartfelt speech about how wonderful he is or any of that nonsense. It's just how she interacts with the character of Glenn and I think it's a beautiful moment.

[00:45:33] Just being there for him. Yeah. And then when the RV actually starts up and she kind of celebrates. Yeah she's just like hey you won you won. It's lovely. It's a lovely moment. Okay I think it's my turn. What do I want to talk about Randall.

[00:45:46] So that is this idiot this idiot. So I I had said so last week I was pretty down on Darryl actually for being so aggressive in his torture of Randall and just sitting there wailing on him.

[00:46:10] And part of it is when Randall tells Darryl about what happened with this group where they were out on a patrol or whatever or scouting and he saw two of the guys rape these girls of daughters of this farmer or whatever.

[00:46:24] And when he said the girls were cute that creeped a lot of people out and I I just thought it could be read as you know they were cute so you know what was about you know what I'm getting at right.

[00:46:36] Like that's that's what horrible things these guy did.

[00:46:40] And that's one way I thought he could have been saying it because the other option is that right in the middle of being tortured for information on how dangerous these guys were Randall's like hey I know something that might change your mind about him.

[00:46:49] Guess what you know that's really dumb. But the thing is he is dumb and that is exactly what he was doing. I see that now especially with how he's with Shane saying oh yeah you get along with these guys. He's despicable. He's stupid. Darryl read that correctly.

[00:47:05] And so I have much more understanding for what Darryl did. But then Darryl should have told the group you know I think Randall's a piece of shit rapist just like these guys he was with. He should have said that straight out if that's what he thinks.

[00:47:16] He didn't say it. But he doesn't talk. He never talks about that. He internalizes most of his. I guess. I mean that's some information that Rick could use.

[00:47:24] But based on what Rick did know about Randall I still think it was better for him to just hold Randall for a while and see what his character was. It makes me think back on Aaron when they first met Aaron.

[00:47:35] They had just gone through the ringer with the termites and Gareth who came off like this just easygoing chill guy just like Aaron. And I think that was the point of bringing Aaron in after that because we didn't trust him either especially if you didn't read the comic.

[00:47:49] And so you know and they did treat Aaron pretty harshly. Didn't they like force feed him applesauce or something? I can't remember. Although to be fair Aaron was like actually I have childhood trauma. And I'm like don't man just eat the applesauce. Like read the room.

[00:48:03] But you know. Alexandrians am I right? Like they gave Aaron a little time enough to get to know him. You know they could have just killed him right there.

[00:48:13] And so I just think when you kill someone without you know if you kill people without at the very least doing your due diligence first then you've lost your humanity.

[00:48:24] But I also don't think it was a smart thing to just let Randall go without knowing his character either. So anyway. So Shane goes to Randall and I love how he's just sitting there in the dim light not saying a word.

[00:48:36] So I mean Randall must be so scared at that point. What the hell is going on here? And then he takes him out and tells and Shane tells him he wants to join the group and he says you're gonna like it with us.

[00:48:50] It gets a little crazy sometimes. You'll fit in good. I just love that because it shows that Randall is a fucker just like his group and he's down with all the nastiness. He's a fucking idiot as well. Yes he's an idiot.

[00:49:04] He's confident that he's going to find them. He just presumes that yeah you're gonna like it with us. And so you know that he probably would have gone straight to them and told them how to find the farm. And that Shane and Darryl were ultimately right about him.

[00:49:17] And see I think it's just funny that he's like yeah Shane you're gonna fit in with us. What does that say about Shane's vibe? So then we don't even see Shane. I forgot that we didn't even see him kill around. You just hear like presumably his neck snapping.

[00:49:37] And then he smashes his nose into that tree. Good moment. It ended up being pointless by the way because they didn't stay at the farm so Randall couldn't lead his guys back to them. But then he made a great zombie. Oh sorry go ahead.

[00:49:51] Also it shows how there's so many holes in that plan. It shows how off the scale Shane has gone at that point. Like you know they've taken him out of a locked room and he's locked it behind him. He's taken him out into the woods.

[00:50:07] He's not thinking straight. Shane is a cop. He's done it in a meditated way and done it successfully. But he's panicked. He's moving quickly and he's got fire under him to do it. And you just think mate this is doomed.

[00:50:20] And it was clear by the end that his whole plan was not only just to kill Randall but to kill Rick. Because he told them that Randall took his gun and then he told Rick you know he was gonna say that Randall shot Rick.

[00:50:35] And then he had to take care of Randall. Meanwhile Glenn and Darryl are finding zombie Randall. And I'm like well yeah that's another part of Shane's plan that wouldn't have worked. Because Darryl and Rick would have said no we found zombie Randall. He wasn't with you guys.

[00:50:50] So that made me wonder if maybe the idea was that Shane hid Randall's body and didn't count on Randall reanimating. He wouldn't have known. Yeah he wouldn't have known. So I think that's probably what happened. And just while I'm on that topic.

[00:51:04] So we see that Randall reanimates without having been bitten and also Shane. And I can't remember if during the podcast when we covered this the first time we were like oh it looks like people just reanimate without having been bitten. We must have. It's you know.

[00:51:17] Like a big revelation in the next episode but you're seeing it happen here. Can I just piggyback on that real quick? Yeah. I think this is hysterical and nobody ever talks about this episode. Darryl is apparently an amateur coroner in this episode. It's so funny.

[00:51:36] I just hit the back of my head when this scene happens where he's like look at the bite. Ain't no bites. Nah just snapped his neck. I'm like what? He's fully clothed. It's dark you're in the woods you can't see anything. I bet it was in the dark.

[00:51:50] You can't see anything. And you're gonna tell me you could do an amateur autopsy in the middle of the woods? Shut up. I fucking love a scene with like a tracker.

[00:51:58] Like the one that I always crack up at is in Lords of the Rings the two terrors when Aragorn's like two hobbits were here. They fell on the ground. They ran over here. Something must have startled them.

[00:52:06] And it always reminds me of this scene because like I find tracking in shows is such it can be such a lazy bit of writing sometimes. Oh he's a tracker. He knows what he's saying.

[00:52:12] But this one just really cracked me up because Darryl you're right it's like CSI Dixon. He's like oh blah blah blah. Something suspicious. It reminds me of Prince Humberdink in Princess Bride. There was a mighty duel here. And Glenn's just like oh. And he's like oh.

[00:52:26] And he's like oh. And he's like oh. And he's like oh. And you're right I will say like it's sold.

[00:52:35] Darryl's performance by Mr. Hare is handled quite steadily and actually I started to believe him for a second but as soon as he's like basically autopsying the victim I'm just done. I'm laughing so hard and I'm just like god I forgot how badly written that scene was.

[00:52:39] Something like contusions to the left and right. You're like what? No bites. And all he does is just like move his shirt an inch. And then he's like oh. And then he's like oh. And then he's like oh. And then he's like oh. And then he's like oh.

[00:52:57] And then he's like oh. And then he's like oh. And then he's just like move his shirt an inch. Yeah! There are no bites at all. Flip him over at least. I think he does flip him but it's very very brief and quick.

[00:53:12] He's not really looking under clothes. It's like come on man. It's dark. You don't have a flashlight. This is a lot of guesswork as it is. What you don't realize is this is actually a mash up with The Mentalist. Like Darryl is also psychic and knows what's happened.

[00:53:26] I did like this like Darryl's coming into his own in this episode. Like Darryl's coming into his own in this episode. He would have fucked Shane's plan up as well by going back and being like this makes no fucking sense. Oh for sure. Rittens was ready to.

[00:53:40] Darryl Series should have really just been a prequel before The Apocalypse and he's the CIA He was like the CIA tracker. Torturer. What was that Jennifer Gar-alaysis? Oh for sure. Alias Dixon. Or just make a whole show where he's foraging the forest.

[00:53:59] He's forging the forts looking for arrows because he's constantly running out of them. Yeah. Wow. Alright Lucy, you got another one? I did have a note that Shane took the Hyundai to the windmill to do some thinking.

[00:54:12] I think the Hyundai does exist in season 3 as well so it's not the last we'll see of it. Can't remember. Well we'll talk a little bit about Dale's legacy in this episode because we've kind of touched on it.

[00:54:24] I think you made a point about it starts with the eulogy and the funeral and we, as you say, hear this voice over while Andrea, T-Dog, Shane and Daryl kick the shit out of some walkers.

[00:54:37] There's a comment where Rick says that Dale saw people for who they were which I think is very interesting given how down he was on Shane and how positive he was about Daryl. It's like that vision does come to pass in this episode.

[00:54:52] Rick says we're going to do it his way, that's how we honour Dale. Rick tries to lay down that authority with Shane by saying you have to swallow it and move on but Shane makes the point and he's not necessarily wrong.

[00:55:03] He says to Rick, Dale's death and the prisoner are two separate things because I think Rick has this thing of building meaning. I think as humans we want to build meaning from death and from loss and to pay tribute

[00:55:14] and I think that's something that makes us really human. It's something that comes up a lot in The Walking Dead is how do we pay tribute to those we have lost, how do we honour their memories?

[00:55:24] But there's something quite brutal but not necessarily untrue about Shane saying look you're conflating these two things and they're actually not. Honouring Dale in this is not going to help us long term. When the writers wanted to justify killing off big characters too that way because I

[00:55:41] think they resisted just doing it purely for the shock factor so they wanted to build some meaning into it too sometimes. Especially with Geoffrey DeMum where they're like, Dale died because Frank Darabont has imposed a lawsuit with AMC and all his friends are leaving the show.

[00:55:58] So I think Dale's legacy and the way that it plays out here is very…it's again, it's the calm before the storm. It's this very noble idea of what we're going to do versus what actually then happens.

[00:56:10] But I wonder, I don't know that Dale would have disapproved of Rick killing Shane. I think Dale might have relaxed his principles if it meant getting rid of Shane. I was wondering that myself, like yeah just this one time it's fine.

[00:56:23] I have two comments on the whole opening with the memorial of Dale. Number one, I always found Dale to kind of be an annoying character and we're kind of retconning a little bit and making him sound all super wonderful and everybody loved him.

[00:56:38] I don't know if I ever loved the guy, he kind of became grating after a while. But two, in terms of the storytelling, I've always been impressed with how this episode was constructed because you have Dale that goes out who is a well-known character and

[00:56:53] then you have the memorial the next episode which in most television would lead you to believe that they're not going to do this show so quickly again so shortly thereafter.

[00:57:06] So you would think that there might be a conflict with Rick and Shane and I think you can tell that because of all the long monologues we're having with the main characters. But you don't think they're gonna actually kill Shane because you just killed a character

[00:57:17] and I think that was actually really well constructed and kind of kept us on our toes so it was shocking when it happened. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I like that. Okay, I'll do one. I'm going to talk about Carl a little bit.

[00:57:32] So he's feeling guilty that the zombie he provoked ended up killing Dale and he had wanted to shoot, I think that was a big thing that's a through line here. He took Darryl's gun and by the way Darryl at one point is just like, oh I wonder where

[00:57:48] my gun went? Oh well. Where's my fucking gun man? Yeah right. Wish I knew where mine was. Like not so smart now are we Darryl? Nobody thought anything about that. Oh well. Yeah.

[00:58:00] But anyway, so he took the gun he wanted to you know there's all this talk about what you need to do to keep people safe and he's like I want to I want to do my part so he's going

[00:58:07] out and wanting to shoot this zombie and then you know he has a faltering of that because he's worried that he was guilty but you know Shane says you need to keep the gun and then

[00:58:19] Rick reinforces that by telling him he needs to keep it and so then at the end he finally did what he'd been wanting to do. He killed a zombie but it was Shane and it was one that was about to kill his father

[00:58:32] and it was because of what Rick and Shane you know enabled him to do that so it was a I don't know I guess we kind of already talked about this but I just feel like it's

[00:58:43] interesting storytelling if you follow the through line of Carl's adventure with the gun. I hadn't thought of that he finally did shoot a zombie and it was Shane. Oh my god. Yeah that kid would be a serial killer in the real world. He started to go that way.

[00:58:59] He shoots a kid in season three I don't know if you remember. Peter's favorite thing at the moment is to just randomly go do it dad! Do it dad! It's like he's just like it's so deranged. I'm like yeah.

[00:59:14] I was thinking it's a good thing Carl didn't stay in the house but then again if it had just been Rick and Shane out there I don't think because Rick was kind of distracted by I think Carl was pointing the gun at him at first right?

[00:59:26] Like you just killed Shane? Yeah that's interesting. What's going on here? And Rick was distracted so then that allowed zombie Shane to come up behind him but if Carl wasn't there then Rick probably would have just finished him off himself.

[00:59:35] Yeah because Rick knew, well yeah Rick knows at this point that we all turn. I did think it was funny that he took them to the field that you can see from the house.

[00:59:45] I was like but you've just taken him through the woods why would you then have this showdown where you can be seen from the farm but you know whatever maybe I'm reading the geography wrong. There's more light I'll tell you that.

[00:59:57] There are in the woods when you're doing an autopsy. I have only one more point do either of you have another main point? I want to talk about that real quick just because that whole moment the one thing I'm

[01:00:12] walking into that always drives me nuts is when zombies are coming up behind people and they just don't hear him for some reason. And it's like you knew he was coming back but you've been waiting on him for like an hour or however long you've been there.

[01:00:23] And he's like he got pretty freaking close before Rick even notices there's a zombie. Oh I didn't notice you till you shot him in the head what we heard him and we're just watching the show.

[01:00:33] See that's a big problem that I talked about many times with this show is the zombies are dumb and slow so they have to really strain credulity in manufacturing scenes where they're actually a threat you know and they often just sneak up on people.

[01:00:47] The other thing is like the smell like I think this with the horde in this episode I'm like would you not smell it? Like you've been living on this beautiful farm, fresh air, fresh water would you not suddenly be like what the fuck is that smell?

[01:00:59] Or maybe the cows smell bad too. Rotting corpse yeah. Rotting corpse man. And you know we already kind of talked about I just want to that scene with the two of them out on the sloping grass in the misty night with a big giant full moon.

[01:01:12] Always a full moon. So beautiful. It was beautiful. It's so well shot. It was incredible. All right I have one. Do you have one more Lucy? Do you have another one? Yes yeah I can do it.

[01:01:23] I just have Shane as a point and I think we've covered a lot of it but things that stood up out to me were that Herschel says he has no more patience with Shane like he's fucking like done with him.

[01:01:35] That they kind of assign Andrea to be a good influence. Like I maintain Rick is still trying to match make Andrea and Shane partly because he wants Shane's attentions elsewhere and partly because he does believe that Andrea will be a good influence on Shane.

[01:01:48] But Andrea does land a zinger on Rick that is not untrue where he says you know I need someone to look out so that things don't go mad when I leave and she says maybe you should stop leaving and I'm like ooooh. Love that line.

[01:02:03] And I do I have a moment where like imagine if Andrea had because like I'm sure Laurie Holden said in an interview with you Jason that the original plan was for Andrea to go

[01:02:13] the distance as in the comic books which ends with Rick and Andrea as a couple. And I just have this moment where I'm like I cannot I don't know if I can see it with this Rick and this Andrea. It's very odd. She's a whole different character.

[01:02:29] She just is. She just is. So the things that go down with Rick and Shane in this amazing like dance of tension. The fact that Rick has realized we don't I think we see the point where he realizes

[01:02:46] there's a moment where he looks at Shane in the woods and Shane looks back and they don't say anything. And I think that's the moment that Rick realizes what Shane's plan is. So when he says so this is where you plan to do it.

[01:02:59] It just cuts through that bullshit and Shane just sees that he knows it's as good a place as any have the balls to call it what this is murder. It's brutal like all bets are off. He's saying Laurie and Carl will get over you.

[01:03:12] They've done it before but then Rick gets in Shane's head. You know oh it's just it's so well done. So well done. I think Rick must have known earlier or at least heavily suspected because if Randall

[01:03:25] actually got the drop on Shane then Shane wouldn't have been like he got the drop on me who would like you fucker Rick it's all your fault. Yeah this little shit. This little dickhead. So pissed off.

[01:03:36] I think there's also this iconic silhouette you know that iconic one of Rick holding his gun out but here he does it with the gun lowered as though he's like showing his neck to Shane and saying you know you're going to have to kill an unarmed man.

[01:03:51] He goads him saying he'll get back to Laurie back to Carl. Shane just looks insane at this point and that is the point where Rick grabs his knife and I think stabs Shane in the heart and that moment where Andy Lincoln loses his shit and

[01:04:05] starts screaming damn you for making me do this Shane this was you not me. This was you not me is just incredible like seeing him wailing under the full moon with this amazing music.

[01:04:15] I just think like on the like Emmy reel of the best performances from Andy Lincoln this has got to be up there because it's so good and I think it's the first time we properly

[01:04:25] see Rick come completely unhinged and like we see him upset and we see him very you know especially in that first episode where he can't find his wife and son but this is him just unraveled completely.

[01:04:40] And yeah then we see the zombie flashes with Shane which they dabble with a bit in season three I think but then they kind of give up the idea of seeing. I thought maybe this was the last one. I thought Milton's experiments we might see some.

[01:04:52] I might be wrong though. Yeah because they had whenever a zombie like when Jim first turned in season one they showed flashes of like zombies gnashing their teeth and then they did it I think with Amy maybe

[01:05:02] or somebody else and then here with Shane and I always thought it was dumb. I wonder if it's a Darabont thing. And I'm glad they didn't keep doing it because it doesn't make any sense that you would picture what you're going to turn into.

[01:05:14] Exactly it's like the madness is taking you. I just like how you said it doesn't make sense what it would be like to turn into a zombie. Yeah it just doesn't make sense. Well I mean they might as well show them thinking about Ronald McDonald.

[01:05:25] That to me makes as much sense as like why would you need pictures? That would be amazing! And I love that like you think the episode is going to end at this point but then we

[01:05:34] get the reveal of the horde and it's just like oh my god the volumes up to like the bare levels of intensity of what is about to happen. And yeah they're within reach of the farm. We see the herd. They have no idea the herd is there yet.

[01:05:49] They're completely distracted and Carl and Rick. Rick's looking at Shane. Carl's looking at his dad. It's just it's so good. It's so… I mean there's about 50 of them and it's like season six they would just go stab them all probably like we've seen thousands at this point.

[01:06:09] But at this point in the show… At that point it was like the most we'd ever seen yeah. Yeah it's just I think it's just a masterclass in acting from the two of them.

[01:06:17] I'd love to see like Andy Lincoln and Jon Bernthal do a two-hander play like I don't know waiting for Godot or something. I don't know I just think it'd be great to see the two of them together again. Yeah they should work together again.

[01:06:28] They energy match very well. So just it gets under your skin that whole confrontation is wonderful. I feel like Lincoln played that very, in my opinion, very intelligently because when he's yelling and he's screaming you know damn you for making me do this and you know whatever

[01:06:45] the exact wording was. I feel very much like Rick is also trying to convince himself that that's the case. Absolutely. Which is a very small sliver of subtlety that I probably go as mostly unnoticed but in my mind I can take that completely either way.

[01:07:06] It's either him just shouting it into the heavens for damn you for making me do this or him saying just trying to convince himself that he didn't want this himself. But I don't see it that way because he had every reason to want Shane the fuck out and

[01:07:23] he decided last episode 18 Miles Out a couple episodes ago to talk to him instead like I wanted to fight you but it took strength not to. I'm telling you lay off.

[01:07:35] So he gave him a chance and Shane returned the favor by trying to kill him and I think my take is that Rick is like I don't I did not want to have to do this but this is the last straw. It's my only choice now.

[01:07:48] But if you watch it again he holsters his gun because at that point Shane's got him dead to rights right and he's like you know and it does the best Bill Clinton and then

[01:07:59] he gets closer to him and before he's at him he already has the knife behind his back ready to go. Yeah he's going to stab him at that moment and that's when Shane was coming down.

[01:08:10] So I think there is I think Rick did murder him but he did it because well one he said smartly he's a better father than you but also because he knew this wasn't going to stop and it's you know yeah I stand this.

[01:08:23] Like I said at the top I wouldn't say 100 percent I think that's the right thing to do but I also wouldn't condemn Rick and I get it. Sure yeah guy keeps coming at you man it's just like the shark and Jaws at some point

[01:08:32] you got to blow him up right. We just watched Jaws last night. They're going to need a bigger zombie. Oh my God. My mom's favorite film. Nico totally predicted the ending which I don't want to spoil in case you haven't seen Jaws go watch it.

[01:08:45] Is it your first time watching it? No Nico's my 12 year old. So so moving into the main I'll do a little like aperitif at the end here. Moving into the main house. So Herschel suggests that the swamp hardening and the creek drying I guess because of the

[01:09:04] seasonal change I don't know allows the zombies to come in and Maggie says the cattle will also draw them in so they're moving everyone to the main house which shows they may as well be ringing the damn dinner bell.

[01:09:15] And that shows there's more unity in the group now that Herschel is on the same wavelength he's willing to bring them all in which is good. Then Laurie of course offers to sleep on the living room floor and then T-Dog's like if

[01:09:26] you two can't decide who will take Herschel's room I'll take it. I thought that was hilarious. Yeah. And then Herschel then they're like no. And then as Herschel like races to get to the door Herschel goes the couch is mine.

[01:09:37] And I'm like this is kind of like what it's like when a bunch of friends rent an Airbnb together. It's like 100% that it's like oh but I want this room. I've just literally come back from a bachelorette party where there was like room discussions

[01:09:50] and I was like god damn it thank god it's not the zombie apocalypse. Even the part where someone goes you take the big room and inside you're going okay but you're like no. I paid more. I paid 50 bucks more why don't I get the big room?

[01:10:03] I'm gonna be here for two nights rather than one so why can't I have the room with air conditioning like that kind of thing. And then Maggie invites Glenn to stay in her room with her and he's like but with your dad in the house.

[01:10:16] I know I was like Glenn don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I didn't blame I would do the same thing like are you sure? I don't think that's gonna work. I would not. I would have been in that room so fast but it's fun.

[01:10:28] And that was a little more of a hit of that original Maggie that was like I'll have sex with you. And then so thinking about like okay Herschel knows that more zeds are going to be able to

[01:10:41] come in now and it's like all right well is the farm actually the best place? He seems to think they'll be safe in the house. And the weird thing is in the next episode we see all the zombies storm the farm and

[01:10:56] I know that they weren't allowed to go on the porch or in the house or anywhere there because the owners of the house in real life were religious and said you can use our place but you can't have any zombies in the house.

[01:11:10] So I think my guess is that what the writers would have preferred is to show them crawling through the windows and that the house was not a safe place you know but we couldn't

[01:11:20] do that so that's sort of kind of like well they weren't really prepared like maybe the farm wasn't the best place. It had food but it wasn't well fortified you know or secure I guess is the word. Interesting.

[01:11:32] It's interesting how natural defences play a role so the city I live in now has city walls it's one of a few medieval cities in the UK that have them but there's this bit

[01:11:42] where the walls stop and it's now like a fucking retail park with like a supermarket and like a bike shop in it. But the reason that the walls aren't complete is because prior to the city being built up

[01:11:55] there was like a swamp there so they didn't need to have a wall because nobody could really come in through the swamp but now it just looks absolutely crazy. You're like why did you stop these beautiful medieval walls so that we could go to the

[01:12:05] supermarket like I don't understand it. But yeah natural defences not to be under appreciated I think. Yeah good point. So now if you have any random notes left over we just go through those. Do you have any more? I do. I have one. Just more of a question.

[01:12:22] A quandary if you will. If you can take out any vitriol you have for Shane right? If it were reversed and he killed Rick and Shane lived do you believe in all honesty that Laurie and Carl would have died when they did?

[01:12:41] We've talked about this a little bit before and it's so hard to know. I think Laurie was always going to die in childbirth in this show because they make a point of saying she had to have a c-section with Carl and if she's had to have a c-section

[01:12:56] once delivering naturally would have been difficult. And although they're prepping for a c-section the reality of doing one in the zombie apocalypse with no medical support system there I think is unlikely. I don't know. It's like a butterfly effect thing isn't it?

[01:13:15] I think there's a rational argument for no they wouldn't have. But they may have died sooner. Do you know what I mean? It wouldn't have been exactly the same. I do think they were setting up Laurie to have childbirth be her demise largely because

[01:13:30] in the comics Judith and Laurie die at the same time they're both shot and I don't think they were ever going to show that on the show. Like I remember at the time being like they're not going to kill a baby right? That's dark.

[01:13:45] But just hypothetically independently of what the writers would have wanted with these characters I think the point of having Laurie separated from everybody in the jail against her will was to make it so that she could have actually had the pregnancy successfully if they had

[01:14:05] been together otherwise they could have just had her die in pregnancy and not bothered with the separation. So that's what I think they were going for there. But then the question becomes okay if Shane was there then would he have been able to prevent that?

[01:14:17] And I can't remember the exact specifics. It was the prisoners one of them was letting zombies in secretly. Because Rick banished him. Yeah and so maybe yeah that's right. So maybe Shane would have just killed that guy. I guess Shane would have shot that guy. Yeah.

[01:14:31] So maybe they would have survived. Maybe she would have survived. That's all I'm saying. I think they would have had a better chance. But then Shane was so... I really just think he's so emotionally unstable that he wouldn't have been able to hold it together for love.

[01:14:43] They're all though. Like every one of them is emotionally unstable in some manner. He's a hothead. He is. Sure. For those at home Aaron just dropped the mic. Yeah that was good. I like it. All right Lucy any notes? Yeah a couple bits. What have I got?

[01:14:57] Rick and Daryl plan a trip to Senoi in this episode. They talk about dropping off near Senoi. And I've written Daryl might open a restaurant while he's there. Called Nick and Norman's for some reason. Yeah who knew?

[01:15:02] Rick thanks Daryl and Daryl says ain't no reason you should do all the heavy lifting. And he basically says you know I can't do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it.

[01:15:08] I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I also like that Daryl takes a tactical piss when like Rick's real boyfriend turns up. He's like I'm taking a piss. A tactical piss. I got to write that down. A tactical piss.

[01:15:18] He's like ahh I'm not going to leave now. It's good to have in your arsenal. I saw I think it was IMDb, I do have some IMDb facts for this episode. They pointed out that Nick and Daryl are both going to the beach. That's right.

[01:15:23] And then they go to the beach. They go to the beach and they get together. And they're going to go to the beach and have a blast. Yeah. And there's just a lot of fun stuff going on. So I'm really excited to see what's going to happen.

[01:15:29] He's like, I'm not going to leave now. It's good to have in your arsenal. I saw, I think it was IMDB, I do have some IMDB facts for this episode. They pointed out that in Rick's last episode, Daryl and Rick do actually trade haymakers

[01:15:44] by the side of the road because Rick is trying to get back to stop Maggie going after Negan. And I was like, oh, that's some incidental foreshadowing there. That is all of my notes, I think. But I think Shane also gets a little bit jealous of Daryl.

[01:16:02] He's like, well, if you want Daryl to be your wingman. And I'm like, these guys. I've got to replace best friend. I'm just replaced all over the place. I know, he's just like, I can't have my baby, I can't have my woman, I can't have my friend.

[01:16:16] I'm like, oh. That was the last time. I can't have coral. He took Daryl out. It's like, I'm going to kill that fucker. Yeah, he's like, fuck you, man. So I only had a couple. Dale's eulogy, Rick says Dale wasn't afraid to say exactly what he thought.

[01:16:27] And I'm like, who is? They all pretty much say exactly what they think all the time. Those eulogies are always hysterical. I'm like, I don't even remember this character you're talking about. Like, it just feels like you're just being way too nice.

[01:16:39] But to be fair, he did say something like he could get on our nerves or something like that. Yeah. But I do laugh because like, Aaron, we do this thing where I'm keeping an eye on the timeline.

[01:16:49] Rick's only been awake for 23 days and he's talking about Dale like he's known him for like his life. He's like, the thing about Dale was I'm like, you knew him three weeks, mate. But I guess, you know, it's the apocalypse.

[01:16:58] It's like when people go on Survivor together and they just go through something, you know? Yeah, they went through a thing. I'll allow it. But it is funny when you put it in that context of like, what a three weeks it has been for Mr. Grimes.

[01:17:13] Carl has a science dog t-shirt on which is character in the comic Invincible that Robert Kirkman made. That's funny. Amazing show as well. Yeah, it's a good show. And then I guess that's all I had. In terms of the timeline, as mentioned, we're 23 days from Rick's wake up.

[01:17:33] So it's been a while. It's been a while. It does make me think, you know, baby's definitely not his. IMDB dive. Jeffrey DeMunn came to watch this episode filming. He made a surprise visit. And Bernthal was really stoked about that. Yeah, I bet Bernthal was.

[01:17:48] Oh, like genuinely, that wasn't sarcasm? No, he was. He was happy because it was kind of Shane's final thing. So that's why DeMunn came back from New York to watch it. That's cool. We talk about this in the podcast a lot, but we've mentioned Senoi.

[01:18:05] So Senoi is where most of the seasons of The Walking Dead are filmed. Settings filmed in Senoi include Woodbury, parts of Terminus, Alexandria and more. And as Jason mentioned, it's also the home to Nick and Norman's restaurant, which is opened by Norman Reedus, Darrell and Greg Nicotero.

[01:18:22] Shane in the comics is actually killed by Carl at the end of the first graphic novel, Days Gone By. He never makes it beyond. Yeah, he's shot and he never makes it beyond the first camp.

[01:18:34] Michael Zegan, who played Randall, considered going from human to zombie to be the full Walking Dead experience. However, the contacts they made him wear burned his eyes so badly they had to be removed. So his zombie eye effects were actually CGI.

[01:18:46] His eyes were removed, just to be clear. His eyes! Michael Zegan actually doesn't have eyes anymore. That's what I thought. I said to him like, that's extreme. So that's great. In Marvelous Mrs. Maisel it's all CGI. This episode is the first time… CGI. CGI.

[01:19:01] This episode is the first time in the TV series where Carl directly kills a walker. In the comic, Sophia is still alive and Dale dies later in the series. Shane is shot by Carl and is buried before he's put down and later Rick will return

[01:19:16] to his grave to kill zombie Shane. The zombie noises made by Michael Zegan are apparently based on the noises gremlins make. I'll need to go back and re-listen to that. Rick using a knife to kill Shane is foreshadowed in 18 miles out when Rick says, guns quick

[01:19:37] but there are other ways to do this. The manner in which Rick kills Shane is very similar to how Rick gets the better of Negan. He lures him in close and lulls him into complacency with talking before cutting him with an extremely sharp object. Slice. I love…

[01:19:51] I'm going to start adding facts to IMDB because some of these are amazing. The ones that are just like, there's a zombie in this episode. I'm like, I could write that. It would be great. But yeah, good crop this week. Nice. So we'll move to…

[01:20:05] Only on The Walking Dead! Only on The Walking Dead. You got one Aaron? Oh, I do. So only on The Walking Dead do you have characters that are yelling at each other, they're screaming at each other, there's an emotional moment, there's stabbing, there's pain, there's a

[01:20:22] breakdown of just body parts and life. Someone dies, there's more crying, there's wailing, and then one gunshot goes off and a horde starts trampling. It's the most ridiculous, ridiculous thing. Only on The Walking Dead would someone refuse to go to bed with Lauren Cohen. Good call.

[01:20:46] Lucy, we need to save yours for last every week because it's always the best. Mine is only on The Walking Dead do you need to kill your murderous best friend twice to make sure you get the job done. God do it right.

[01:21:09] The people it kills get up and kill. Are they slow moving Chief? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is a Walking Deadcast News Update. All right, just a few quick ones. AMC announced that The Walking Dead, Daryl Dixon, The Book of Carol will premiere on

[01:21:48] Sunday, September 29th. End of summer. They had it as summer, but that's actually in the fall, early fall. I'm excited for that. I love Carol. I love Carol and I like the Daryl series quite a lot. It was really fun. I'm excited.

[01:22:06] I'm going to brush up on the French. Do you guys like that they're doing that now instead of having a series proper, so to speak? That they're doing these little limited series events? It's a good question. I think it's kind of nice.

[01:22:19] I feel like it keeps my enthusiasm. It's nice to have little things to look forward to, I guess. And they've been pretty good and it's nice to focus in on some characters, you know, and have different styles.

[01:22:32] So you know, it would be nice if they could get back together for an Avengers style finale at the end, but I'm digging it pretty well. An Avengers style finale. Love. End game. Yeah. I'm just waiting for the Lance Hornsby prequel series.

[01:22:47] They've not gotten back to me about my proposal. They said it was too erotic to film. So there you go. Keep trying, keep trying. Keep trying. You should call his agent and see if you can just do it yourself. I should. Make shit like what, 50 shades of Grrr?

[01:23:05] 50 shades of Tweed. Nice. AMC's Instagram had a quick beyond the scenes production video for Dead City that was kind of fun. JDM and Lauren Cohan giving funny looks and laughing. And they just said it will air in 2025. So not this year.

[01:23:24] So kind of surprised not to see any Dead City in 2024, but there you go. Yeah. I like that show quite a bit. Even though I still will never get past Negan and Maggie working together in any capacity whatsoever. But I still like that show. All right.

[01:23:39] Next Jeffrey Wright, who played, this is some Last of Us news. Bernard in Westworld and Watu the Watcher in What If, among other things, has been cast to play the character Isaac in The Last of Us Season 2, which is super cool because he

[01:23:55] did the voice of Isaac in the game. Yeah, it's very cool. We went on a YouTube deep dive today. You know when you start clicking, you know, like some algorithms got like all my info now and like probably I'm on the dark web or something.

[01:24:10] Did you ever watch the SNL skit about it was Pedro Pascal and it was about making Mario Kart into a gritty HBO drama? So funny. I'd rewatched it today and I was just, I was howling. It's like Yoshi being like, I'm bisexual. I was like so good.

[01:24:24] If you haven't seen it, please watch it. It's very entertaining. And then watch the one where he's coming out of a coma because that's the absolute best. And last HBO, this is not the greatest news.

[01:24:40] HBO announced that The Last of Us Season 2, which is supposed to premiere sometime next year, hopefully early, will have seven episodes. So one less than season one. And Craig Mazin said they did that because it felt like the right place to break for the story.

[01:24:56] And he said one of those episodes will be quote quite big in length. And he also said a potential season three would be quote significantly larger and that there could very well be a season four behind that.

[01:25:07] So it sounds like season two, a little shorter, season three longer. I trust Craig Mazin. Yeah, me too. I'm like, if he thinks that's a good place to stop then okay. I'll take it. Have you ever played the game or do you know the story of the game?

[01:25:20] I love the game. Jason has, I have not. Well then you know as well as I do if you played the game. No spoilers. I'm not going to spoil it. But there is, there's definitely, there's a time gap number one between game one and two.

[01:25:33] And there's a lot of time you could fill in there. And there's, there's just a lot more story that will, you know, where it takes place in the game could easily take place before we get to the major beats of that game. Yes. Yeah.

[01:25:46] I have a suspicion of where it's going to end, where season one is going to end. Me too. But, and I also, I hope, I don't know if they are, but that they're working on the third

[01:25:53] game so that they can keep the series going and do the third game. But we'll see. All right. So let's move on to Listener Moans, Groans and Grunts. Renee Murray starts with good riddance to the loo. Well that's just. She's talking about Shade there.

[01:26:13] I know what she's talking about. I'm saying it to Dale. How about that? Maybe that's what she meant. Alicia Stout says, Shade was a great character. I mean you love to hate him and you're glad to see him go but looking back you wish he was still here.

[01:26:29] Merrill was another one like this. Dot dot dot. Who's hinting at things to come? I don't know about Merrill but I'm with you on Shane. Merrill was one where I'm like, yeah, you can kill him. I'm done with him. I liked him in season three.

[01:26:42] But here's a challenge for everyone. Think of someone in your life that you feel that way about. All right. Val Leroy says, I've just listened to the podcast. Great. I already have a name in my head.

[01:26:55] Val Leroy says, I've just listened to the podcast for this episode and I wanted to thank Lucy for the way she articulated her point of view, which is also my point of view in the discussion about Rick saying she's my wife.

[01:27:06] I also think it's great Jason asked what could be changed in the discussion to make it better. Thank you Val. Thanks Val. Well, I haven't heard that episode so can you give me some kind of.

[01:27:16] Yeah, there's more messages about it but it was when Rick and Shane were out and Rick talked to Shane saying, you know, hey, you need to step off basically. This is my wife.

[01:27:32] It's my son and we had Rennie on as a guest and she said that was an example of possessive patriarchy and I thought that even though Rick does have some of that going on that in that

[01:27:44] instance it was totally reasonable of him to say she's my wife like not in a possessive way but just like it's not your wife. It's my wife. So we had a talk about that.

[01:27:54] Yes, and I tried to do my best to represent what I think Rennie was saying along with some of my own thoughts on it but I will say I didn't prepare for that discussion and listening

[01:28:05] back to it there are some things I probably would have articulated a little differently but yeah, it's nice that people have been able to write in and I like that people are complimentary of our civil discussion and it's good that Jason edited out all the swearing.

[01:28:19] No, I'm joking. That's funny. Okay, Shonda Wright, I appreciate Jason Gabassi's point of view on the my wife turn of phrase. I think both sides make valid points and have given me something to think about.

[01:28:36] Most importantly, I think it was an excellent representation of how to engage in civil discourse. I am appreciative to you for both, to you both for that. Wow. Civil discourse and excellent editing. I was literally just thinking neither of us made a Borat joke in that whole discussion.

[01:28:52] What were we thinking? I know, luckily we had Erin here. Excellent. So I've got Ijapan Bathumet Samara Wiccarama. Wow. Hey, wow. I'm so sorry if I didn't. I think you just conjured a demon. I think you nailed it. I think I did.

[01:29:06] Yeah, yeah, my cat's looking at me real weird now. They say the series up to this point set up as Shane being adapted to the new world versus Rick still clinging to the old one and by forcing Rick to kill him Shane dragged Rick into the new world.

[01:29:19] I really can't fault Rick for anything he did. He gave Shane so many chances. Yeah, yeah, it does feel that way. Thanks man. Veronica Hood said Rick yelling this was you not me, not me as he stabbed Shane it really gets me.

[01:29:35] He's been forced to kill his former best friend and essentially self-defense and as he's just pulled the knife from Shane's body he then he holds his hand to try to comfort him as he dies. Oh, no wonder Rick really unhinges after this point, especially after how Laurie reacts

[01:29:52] next episode. I haven't watched that in so long. Rick faces a lot of terrifying challenges in the days and years to come but being betrayed and almost killed by his best friend before having to stab him to death is pretty fucking chilling.

[01:30:05] Yeah, my self-defense is a stretch though. I'm just gonna say like, yeah, he's got he's I think again, I think you could have him in hug mode if he doesn't pull that knife at that moment, but maybe.

[01:30:18] Maybe Shane, I mean they didn't show it but Shane also had his hand on his knife. So I'm just kidding. That is my knife! Sorry, sorry. My knife. I like it. We have a call from Wendy. Hey, it's Wendy and I'm talking about the episode Better Angels.

[01:30:40] I've really been enjoying going back and revisiting these episodes. I'm much more forgiving this time around. I'm not sure what that is, but like I don't hate Laurie. I don't hate Andrea. I'm really digging all the characters.

[01:30:56] This episode did feel very soap opera-ish with the whole Laurie-Shane thing and I think that was just to set up what happened in the episode. It didn't seem very realistic to me. Laurie has flip-flopped a thousand times and I think they just needed that little bit

[01:31:18] of oomph to give that motivation for what Shane tries to do. This is a great episode. Poor little baby Carl. Like why couldn't he have just said, hey dad, look behind you? But really loving your coverage, appreciating it so much.

[01:31:35] Thank you for doing it and I'm looking forward to next week. Thank you. Thanks Wendy. Where can we hear Wendy at the moment? Oh, yep, you got me. Yeah, I was just gonna say she's gonna be doing House of the Dragon. Is that what you were gonna say?

[01:31:51] No, I was gonna ask where can we hear Wendy at the moment? Oh yeah, House of the Dragon. Yes, she and Rennie and Veronica are all gonna be hosting Dragon Cast this season. So they're working on an episode right now. Man, I am just rewatching.

[01:32:05] I'm literally right in the middle of rewatching that as we speak. Oh, I'm excited. Getting ready. Fighting. I love Damon. Yeah, everybody seems to like Damon the best. I love Damon. Alma Contreras, I hope.

[01:32:20] This episode really shows how the group has grown in the short time they've been together. It also shows how far they have come along in dealing with walkers. Their badassery is coming along. Honestly, this is one of my fave episodes. Mine too.

[01:32:32] And as bad as Shane was getting, I was a little sad of his ultimate demise, but mostly for Rick having to kill him. Rick was right. Shane forced him into putting him down, and there we part ways.

[01:32:43] Oh yeah, and I love Daryl's line, you mean to tell me Randall got the jump on Shane? He's a bucko five soaking wet, and he's not wrong. No, he was not. That was the moment where I think Rick put it together personally. He's like, yeah. Yeah.

[01:32:58] You know, Erin, I'm totally glad that you have the perspective that you have on Shane, because I am almost positive that many of our listeners probably feel exactly the same as you, but a lot of people just don't write in because they know we don't feel exactly

[01:33:13] that way maybe, or whatever the case. I know it's great to have different viewpoints, because then you connect with more people, and they're just like, yeah, you should have this guy on more. I'm sure they're saying that. So I'm not getting banned because of that? No, absolutely not.

[01:33:24] Yeah. Absolutely. I agree. Mike in Brighton. Hi Mike, UK listener. It says, hi Jason and Lucy. Sorry, I've assumed there are many Brightons in the US as well, but I'm going to assume it's the UK one just because, you know, why not?

[01:33:40] Mike says, I'm a couple of episodes behind your rewatch schedule, but my feedback for episode 10 18 miles out is perhaps more pertinent now. I was going to point to the scene where Rick and Shane explore the drop off site for Randall.

[01:33:51] Rick encourages the lone walker to the fence and stabs it with his knife after telling Shane to lower his gun and says a gun is quick and easy, but there's other ways to do this. Foreshadowing much? Shane should have seen it coming. Just saying it was murder.

[01:34:07] Justice for Shane, man. If we would have got the autopsy from Daryl instead of the bullet in the head, we would have known. Rick said let's call it what it is, murder. It's true. It's true. Rachel Teal Edwards says, Jason, I'm with you on this.

[01:34:22] From my perspective, we are married and she's my wife. Our statements of fact and interchangeable phrases, use of possessive language is impossible to avoid when referencing a spouse or a partner and doesn't automatically mean a person is being toxically possessive.

[01:34:35] Rick was directly and firmly telling Shane to stay the hell away or there'd be trouble. If my husband was in that position and said the same things, especially after I'd asked him to, I'd be really grateful and swooning like olive oil. Ironically,

[01:34:48] I hope your husband's keeping up with his spinach, Rachel. I will say when I listened back to last week, the bit where I did say we are married was quite dumb because it is the same thing as saying she's my wife.

[01:35:00] But I stand by that he could have used her name and referred to her as a person. But yeah, I heard it re-listening to it. And again, I was on the spot, lads. I was on the spot. I mean, that's an impulse reaction too, right?

[01:35:13] I mean, if someone, I would phrase it that way. Hey, she's my wife. Back off. I get it. I get the other way too because you are, you know, it takes away agency. Yeah. Randy Tatum, Jason, you nailed it. Well, look at you.

[01:35:29] I guess it won't mean much coming from a male. Well, I'm not the one saying this. I'm just pointing this out. It's Randy Tatum. I guess it won't mean much coming from a male, but there's absolutely no evidence that Rick

[01:35:40] was talking in a possessive manner in this scene. My wife and I have a completely equal relationship and she's my wife, just like I'm her husband. Neither of us own one another. I've heard Lucy talk about Peter and call him her partner. It's just an identifier.

[01:35:56] We really shouldn't have to tiptoe around basic language just to avoid sounding like a womanizer in a statement that should have never been seen that way. I get it. People's minds have been transformed to zero in on these kinds of statements, but I agree with you.

[01:36:07] It certainly does dilute the cause. I do think the cause is important. When we choose to have conversations like this versus avoiding them, like a lot of podcasts would, I hope the ultimate result is people saying we have a civil conversation about

[01:36:26] something where we don't agree and also not to diminish that there is a problem with toxic masculinity, possessive patriarchy, and all that. I don't want to diminish that at all. I love that you guys have those conversations. How's that? Thanks. We're putting the world to rights. That's right.

[01:36:46] You know what? People need to talk more. Just us. Just two white people on a zombie podcast fixing the world. I tend to step in it like that and it doesn't always turn out well, but when it does, I feel like it's worth it.

[01:36:59] All right, here's Steve Brown. Hello, the cast of this. This is Steve and this is for The Walking Dead, season two, episode 12, Better Angels. This sure sounds like a really intense truck ride here. Good eulogy there, Rick, but I don't know about these four.

[01:37:18] They may seem to have some different ideas, but I know that's not the case with all of them, meaning T-Dog, Andrea, Daryl, and Shane. Oh, so we've already started to see the shift. Now Rick is taking Daryl with him to release Randall, not Shane.

[01:37:34] This is a bad idea. Pre-psycho Carl confiding to a totally psycho Shane about his worries. Yeah, not good kid. Look at that. Glenn respecting Herschel's house. Lori, this is not helping this conversation with Shane. Rick just said Senoi.

[01:37:55] Is that a subtle reference to where they're going to be when? Is that Alexandria? Yeah. Wait, was that T-Dog's gun that Daryl had that Rick gave to Carl? And now Randall is changing his tune a little bit. He says they're just a bunch of guys, not families.

[01:38:13] So maybe Randall is a bad guy. Oh, and Shane just broke his neck, I guess. I don't remember what happens here. I know. So we got Glenn and Daryl together and Shane and Rick are together looking for Randall. Right. This is Randall as a walker.

[01:38:32] And Glenn gets a nice from Daryl. So Glenn and Daryl have just figured out what happened with Randall. At least they haven't said anything yet, but they know. And now Rick is figuring out what happened as well. He's with Shane. Yep.

[01:38:45] I knew he was just lulling him in, getting him closely, getting with his knife. Good for you, Rick. Oh, he's waiting there to see if Shane is going to get up. And the beginning of the speed at which one turns is consistent with how fast the riders

[01:39:00] need them to turn. Nice shot, Carl. I'm impressed. Of course that one gunshot is going to be what's going to be the downfall of the farm. Sorry, I hope that's not a big spoiler, but that's a lot of walkers coming their way. Talk to you later.

[01:39:13] Damn, Steve, you spoiled the whole thing, man. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I hadn't put it together that he was waiting around, Rick was waiting around, but like you mentioned, Aaron, for him to turn.

[01:39:25] Do you think he was just doing that so he could kill him because he just didn't have it in his heart to stab him in the head? I think he just wanted to kill him one more time for sure.

[01:39:35] But also, yeah, he was waiting because he's going to turn. It was going to turn. That was the whole reason. Yeah. Lucy Tirado says season two episodes 12 and 13 are truly some of the best.

[01:39:45] A lot of this episode is so intense and gut wrenching and I loved every stressful minute. We always knew it wasn't going to end well for Shane. I personally was over the moon to see him go, but my heart always breaks for Rick in that moment.

[01:39:56] But then here comes Carl, who I'm pretty sure was supposed to be in the frigging house again. This kid comes upon an unimaginable scene having to put down his beloved friend gets me every time. Kudos to JB for being an awesome zombie.

[01:40:08] I do feel bad for Carl, who is kind of the test run kid of the ZA and his parents just keep irrevocably screwing up. I'm glad he ends up good in the end, but those early days were a tad dicey.

[01:40:20] All of this madness leads to that closing moment of a horde approaching our heroes completely unaware that their crazy day was about to turn into a chaotic night. Man, it was good stuff. As always, thanks for the kick ass coverage. Can't wait for next week. Thank you.

[01:40:34] I don't remember if she's ever written in before. It's good. It's great. Brad Holt says as someone who is an unabashed season two fan, I've never really understood the criticism of it. So much happens and there are so many shocking moments. This episode is awesome.

[01:40:50] I will give you that. I really like this episode. The imagery of Rick and Shane in that field with the giant full moon in the back is beautiful and eerie at the same time. Shane made for a terrific foil for Rick this season.

[01:41:02] As a viewer, you could hate him and also kind of agree with him at the same time. Made for great drama. The deaths of both Randall and Shane gave the viewers a big clue as to what Jenner's secret was. A big clue.

[01:41:13] And left us with an exciting cliffhanger ending. A perfect penultimate episode. On another note, did anyone else find it amusing that adults were encouraging Carl to keep the gun he stole from Daryl? Yeah, no one asked Carl. No one asked Daryl. I know.

[01:41:28] He's going around looking for it. I mean a Browning, he's like tracking the thief. It's tiny steps. I think it was a small boy who came in here and took it at about 12 52 AM. I mean a Browning high power nine millimeter is a damn fine firearm.

[01:41:46] I'm sure Daryl might have had an opinion on that, especially since he was lamenting to T-Dog that he couldn't find it. Yep. Here's Archmaester Reni. Oh thank God. Sorry. Hello Jason and Lucy. I wanted to say thank you to- I already listened to that.

[01:42:06] I'll just tell you, she said that it totally was wrong everything you said. Just kidding. Here we go. Lord. Thank you to Lucy for carrying on the possessive patriarchy conversation in the last podcast. And Lucy, I give my seal of approval to everything that you said.

[01:42:28] And I think that conversation may have been carried even farther forward into this episode and you guys' coverage. But I just want to comment on one thing in this episode that I thought was a really nice

[01:42:43] piece of editing, which is at the beginning, Rick is talking at Dale's funeral. And in the meantime, Shane, Daryl, Andrea and T-Dog have gone out to hunt walkers on the farm and we crosscut between those two.

[01:43:08] And Rick says of Dale, at the end he was talking about us losing our humanity. And while Rick is saying that, what we're actually seeing is Shane, Daryl, Andrea and T-Dog are putting down walkers. And walkers are humans who have literally lost their humanity.

[01:43:38] So I thought that was a very clever juxtaposition. And viciously. All right, carry on, carry on. The archmaster has spoken. I think it's a dual impact. It's that and also the savagery at which they're doing it. Yes. Their loss of humanity. Yeah.

[01:43:59] I'm going to open that one's brain right open. Andy Fisher, dear J and L. Look at that. You're just letters now. We're like best friends. It's great. Better Angels is terrific. Everyone looks dirty and grungy and sweaty and gross and authentic and gorgeous. I love that. Wonderful.

[01:44:19] Shane doesn't ease up in this episode. Is he the ultimate Walking Dead villain? Question mark. I'll come back to that. Shane reminds me of assholes at work that try to bully and fuck with you at every opportunity. Good riddance. I guess we're on different pages.

[01:44:34] The acting is great in this. I do think he's an asshole. Don't get me wrong. The acting is great in this episode, too. I think you both are crazy because I still love Lori. Especially. That's very sweet. Ridiculous, but sweet.

[01:44:47] Especially here trying to hold it all together as she deals with panic, fear, overwhelming sadness. I'm going to make words out of this. Guilty and guilt. Thank you for the great podcast. My favorite segment of podcast is only on The Walking Dead.

[01:45:02] I can't wait to hear your thoughts on season three, the greatest The Walking Dead season. That should be a question mark, Andy. Amazing. I think the season three episode one, you know, the seed I think it's called, So Good, remember the opening segment with no dialogue?

[01:45:20] And I think that's our podcast episode with the highest downloads for some reason. I remember seeing that. That's when I started listening to the podcast. Maybe it was season four. Did you download it 10,000 times? I did. Andrea Maitland says, Hi Jason and Lissy.

[01:45:36] I haven't written in since The Ones Who Live, but I've been really enjoying listening to your insights. You guys do such a great job of breaking down the episodes and giving me a totally different perspective.

[01:45:45] I've been rewatching along most of the time, but both Lori and Andrew are great on my nerves and Carl is creepy and bratty. So sometimes I fast forward through scenes they're in since I've already seen it.

[01:45:56] As for Better Angels, I remember really liking this episode and I liked it this time as well. There are some really touching moments like Andrea and Glenn. The way she comforts him is actually very sweet and it was one of the few moments I did like Andrea.

[01:46:07] Then there's a conversation between Rick and Carl. Rick pointing out the reality of the world Carl has to live in. That scene was so beautifully filmed. The silhouettes and warm colours, really lovely in every way. Then there's Darryl.

[01:46:19] I was already in love with him by this point, but seeing him work with the group and bond with Rick sealed the deal for me. Now as for the conversation between Shane and Lori, I feel that what Lori said to Shane

[01:46:29] is what made him go off in the deep end. I don't think she meant for that but the way it played out in Shane's head made him think he had a chance and led to all the chaos that followed and him wanting to kill Rick.

[01:46:39] All in all this episode really stood out for me. I really think it's one of my favourites. Finally I wanted to go on a little bit of a rant about Darryl's torture of Randall from the week before.

[01:46:49] While I don't condone any violence or torture and tend to fast forward and not watch if I know it's coming, I have to disagree with Jason about Randall. His tone when he says the story about the girls is depraved.

[01:47:00] Not only that but he says, and they didn't even kill them, but in my opinion I'm sure those girls wish they had died. He is guilty for watching and maybe he had no choice but it is despicable in every way.

[01:47:10] As someone who has been assaulted I cannot agree that he didn't deserve what he got. I understand if you edit this which is why I put it at the end but I needed to say my piece. Thank you as always for your amazing podcast. Love you guys.

[01:47:22] Andrea thank you for disclosing that and I'm sorry that that happened to you and I appreciate what you have to say about Randall and the story he tells there. I think you're bang on. Yeah, me too.

[01:47:34] In hindsight, I mean, I think it was so stupid that I couldn't believe he would actually be doing that but he was. I think Randall and his one brain cell have left the planet now. I think we can see the boy was a dum-dum.

[01:47:50] He's been a despicable person. My grandfather used to say a little adage that always stuck with me which is those that do nothing are nothing. Mm-hmm. I like it. I'm glad you wrote in again Andrea since the one who lived hoped to hear from you more

[01:48:07] and also I agree with you about Daryl. I hadn't really thought about it consciously but this is the first, it feels like Daryl from later seasons here where he's Rick's partner, you know, first time he's really felt like that. Bye-bye Shane. See you never. All right, here's Carissa.

[01:48:29] Hey, this is Carissa from PDX and I'm calling about the penultimate episode for The Walking Dead season two, Better Angels. Man, I forgot how good this was. A lot of tension. A couple points. Why did Laurie talk to Shane? Why didn't she just leave it alone?

[01:48:52] I think it made it worse because he was looking like a little puppy dog with his face like oh, oh, I think she still wants me. So not good. And then I'm really ambivalent about Randall. I feel really bad about how he went out.

[01:49:10] I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to go back to his group, you know, with Shane trying to trick him. But I don't know. I just think overall he was just a very unlucky young man that stumbled upon a soap opera,

[01:49:23] to be honest, that got him killed, unfortunately. There was also this really good mini mystery with like Randall being missing and Daryl and Glenn, you know, putting the pieces together when they came upon Randall's locker. I'm just trying to remember how I felt watching that episode.

[01:49:43] Did I piece it together? That people turn when they die no matter what? I don't know. Daryl and Rick knew Shane was full of shit from the door, especially Daryl. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Shane was kind of sloppy too.

[01:49:58] Like, why did he leave the door locked to the shed? Stupid. You can't even do your shenanigans correctly. And then, oh, poor Shane. Again. I feel bad. He was just an entire pile of jelly. He was jealous of Rick and Lori, jealous of Rick and Daryl.

[01:50:24] He wanted to be the captain. And when it was clear that Rick wasn't letting him be the captain, he couldn't even be Rick's number one because Daryl was easing into that role, which he literally said, you know, he's your right hand man or whatever.

[01:50:38] So yeah, just overall really good episode. Where did those walkers come from? Like, I just, were they just standing in the woods and then when the gunshot went off, they just came in? Whatever. I hope I have enough time. I really loved your guys' conversation last week.

[01:50:57] My point of view, while marriage was obviously born from a desire to own women, I really don't think Rick was bringing that energy to the conversation. I don't know who Shane was. I just think they were just right at the point where society was falling apart.

[01:51:13] And I think to expect Rick or anyone to be that thoughtful about how to refer to their partner in a heated argument is just unrealistic. I just, you know, I didn't get the energy from Rick. Shane was definitely bringing that energy. But anyway, that's just my two cents.

[01:51:29] So love your coverage, of course, as always. Bye. Thanks, Carissa. In the comic, the zombies are referred to as roamers and lurkers. And there's a lot of lurkers that just stand around until there's some stimulus. So it could be that's where they came from.

[01:51:48] That yeah, just like you said, they were just standing around in the woods and then they heard a noise and they were like, huh? They didn't hear all the noises before, but that's normal. No, the screaming. Not to...

[01:51:57] I mean, you'd think Daryl and Glenn would have heard like, Rick, you were my brother or whatever. Not to spoil it, but I forgot at the start of the next episode we see how the herd forms, which is really interesting. We follow them. Yeah.

[01:52:12] I don't think there's such thing as spoilers on this rewatch podcast, by the way. We can talk in detail about anything. But I don't remember. Yeah, I remember they broke through a fence and there was a... Was there a plane or something? I forget. There's a helicopter. Helicopter.

[01:52:28] Okay. Which hits different now after the ones you left. Yeah. It was probably CRM or whatever. Yeah. Okay, let's move on. Elizabeth Schwartz says, the scene at the windmill with Laurie and Shane makes my blood boil. You see what Shane is becoming. You tell Rick he's dangerous.

[01:52:43] You say he scares you, but you go to him anyway and basically fan the flames. I just can't with her. Jon Bernthal deserved an Emmy for his portrayal of Shane. Agreed. I'm so glad they kept him on the show longer than his comic book counterpart. Me too.

[01:52:58] He was season two for me. RIP Shane. I have a lot to say about this episode, but to keep this from being three hours long, I want to answer a question Jason asked in the feedback portion of the last episode.

[01:53:08] If those who agreed with killing Randall believed in redemption or if it was only reserved for charming and good looking guys like Negan. I absolutely believe in redemption. For me, I think Alden and Tara are the best examples as well as Dwight once he knew his

[01:53:21] wife was safe. When the opportunity came for them to leave the bad people they were with, they did everything they could to show they were willing to do just that. Randall, on the other hand, knew what his people were doing, saw what happened to the two girls.

[01:53:33] And then when Shane suggested joining his group, Randall happily said, you'll like it there. It gets crazy, but it's a bunch of guys you'll fit right in. Which says to me that he had no qualms about what was going on.

[01:53:43] I mean, I agree with that, by the way, but we didn't know that about Randall until now, but I totally agree with you. And the way he said it made it seem he even enjoyed his time with them.

[01:53:52] Perhaps if it had happened later in the timeline with more resources at their disposal, he could have been safely locked in a cell and eventually turned a new leaf. But where they are right now, all they have is a barn and only a couple people.

[01:54:04] Because of that, he's a huge threat to the safety of the group. And should he get back to his own and there isn't a surefire way to make sure he doesn't. As far as Negan, I could talk for hours as to whether or not he actually redeemed himself.

[01:54:16] But again, this would be an even more massive post. So I'll save that for when the time comes. Speaking of the barn, like I was sort of wondering when Rick was having his father son talk with

[01:54:26] Carl if Randall was just sitting down right below them listening to the whole thing. But I didn't realize he was actually in this little shed over here. He's like, give him the gun. And you've been to the farm, Jason Lord. Yeah, I don't even remember that shed.

[01:54:44] It's been a while. 14 years or 12 years. Wow. Okay, here's a call from Renee. Hi, Jason and Lucy. This is Renee calling in about The Walking Dead. I just wanted to say, Jason and Lucy, you guys are the bomb.

[01:54:58] And actually all of the podcasters on House Podcastica are the bomb. Because you guys start talking about the show, but we end up talking about the issues on the show. Real life issues. And I love that you guys do not shy away from that.

[01:55:17] And I'm glad that you all addressed the fact about sexism and racism. And for as Rick's saying, my wife, my child, my unborn child, I do not feel like that Rick was being sexist. Because in my phone, I have my husband. I do not have his name.

[01:55:37] I have him up on my husband because that's what he is. He's my husband. Not my property, but he's my husband. So that's how I have him as my husband. So I feel like that's what Rick was saying.

[01:55:49] That is my wife, that is my child, my unborn child, and you're going to stay the hell away from them. You're not going to look at them. You're not going to breathe at them. You're going to stay away.

[01:55:57] And that's what he was supposed to tell Shane because Shane slept with his wife, which Shane was supposedly Rick's best friend. But I don't understand how a best friend could do that, dead or alive. But hey, that's what Rick chose to do. He chose to stay with her.

[01:56:11] So he was supposed to address Rick. Now, my husband, he's like Rick, but he would not have shown Shane the grace that Rick showed Shane. He would have beat the shit out of Shane. Probably would have beat the shit out of me too. But hey, guess what?

[01:56:24] If that would have been my best friend sleeping with my husband, I would have beat the shit out of her too because the loyalty, like we're best friends. Like best friend is not a friend. It's not an acquaintance. A best friend is family. Like that is family.

[01:56:40] So I feel like that Rick addressing Shane like that, that is my family and you're going to stay away from him. Now, Shane on the other hand, Shane seemed like he was saying it like that's my property. You know, he was feeling like that's my property.

[01:56:54] And I don't understand how Shane could feel that way when that was Rick's wife and his child or whatever. But that's how I took it from Shane. Now Shane was racist. No, not racist. I'm sorry.

[01:57:04] He was sexist because he was talking about the lady leaving the light on and all of this and all that crap. Yeah. I don't know how he could be sexist. But Rick, I didn't get that from him because Rick and Michonne were together.

[01:57:14] They were married and Rick would not have been with someone like Michonne because she's so strong minded. So I just do not see that Rick being sexist. And I remember Rick telling Maggie that when the war with the Saviors were over, he was going to stop following her.

[01:57:29] So I don't see a man that's sexist, you know, telling a woman something like that. And Rick always said mine, because even on the ones who live, he said that is you don't get to choose for me. I choose my wife. I choose my daughter.

[01:57:43] So I feel like that's just what Rick says because that's mine. That's what it is. Again, my husband, you know, I mean, my husband, he's my husband. I don't know no other way to say it.

[01:57:55] I'm not going to call him by his name because I don't call him by his name. Even when I'm talking to him, I'm like, husband, can you come here please? Husband, I need this. I mean, I think that is okay.

[01:58:05] And I'm like, Jason, when we start saying everything is sexist and racist, then it becomes a problem because when it really is sexist and racist, it tends to get overlooked. And I don't feel like the Hershey was being racist by calling Glenn the little Asian boy

[01:58:17] because he didn't know where he was from. So I feel like that he was being respectful. So you know, that's just my opinion. I respect your opinion, Lucy. I respect your opinion, Jason, but that's my opinion. And Do the Bug, Do the Bug, Fly Away Home.

[01:58:31] Oh, I thought everyone knew that song. We sung that all our life. Alrighty, bye. Peace and love. I love that. I love that, Renee. Do the Bug. I'm really, I'm taken with the idea that your husband is just called husband though. I'm like, is his name husband?

[01:58:45] But yeah, no, thank you for writing in. That's super valid and I really enjoyed listening to what you had to say there. As always. She literally convinced me to like Shane a little less. I'll be honest. Renee, powerful. Well done. Well done. Billy Thompson, it's hard.

[01:58:59] Well, actually I do want to say, since you're talking on topics, I do like her best friend analogy because I have that rule in my own life. The best friend rule, the friend rule in general, which is you don't cross those streams.

[01:59:13] I've had the same best friends since I was five years old and that's always been. Never dated the same person? Nope, nope, nope, nope. Took it very seriously. So I respect that. Good. Billy Thompson, it's hard to feel bad for Shane because it's all his own doing.

[01:59:27] But when he realizes Rick prefers slash trust Darryl more, you can tell it really hurts him. I'm not sure if Carl would need to have a gun if he wasn't allowed to wander into the situations all the time.

[01:59:40] Shane says he can't watch him 24 seven, but someone from the group should be preferably his parents. Right? Yes, absolutely. You are correct. Uh, when Shane talks to Rick, I think he's right. Rick should be addressing this before starting Randall.

[01:59:55] But in classic Shane style, he's doing the right thing with the wrong intentions. It's annoying to see Rick is reluctant to talk to Carl, which would be evidence of Lucy's theory that Rick should not, uh, Rick not be able to handle these sorts of issues, but

[02:00:09] he does speak to him in the end. So maybe it isn't. It's weird to see Darryl miss a shot with a crossbow while fighting zombie Randall, but Glenn really steps up in this moment and doesn't freeze. There's a great intense scene between Rick and Shane at the end.

[02:00:23] Rick knows he is dealing with a wild animal at this point and brings out the voice he uses to calm the horse in the pile. Unfortunately, Shane, Shane can't be tamed. Love the music at the end. It sets up an exciting finale.

[02:00:36] I'll be looking out for you this time, Jason. Thanks guys. Just a quick, uh, one on a topic from last pod. I agree with Jason. I think maybe the way Rick says my wife is a bit misleading.

[02:00:48] He does put a lot of emphasis on the my, just like he does in the last exchange with Shane when talking about his kids. He does this because Shane is an understanding of the situation.

[02:01:00] I don't believe for a second he is saying this because he sees Lori as his property. She had already made a decision that she is wants to be Rick's wife and Rick is wants to be her husband.

[02:01:10] In my opinion, I don't think saying my wife or my husband is a conversation with someone that's trying to break up the relationship when both Rick and Lori have made up their minds is a problem. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Sorry, Lucy, please don't hate me.

[02:01:24] I could never hate you, Billy. I think it's totally valid point. I think so much of this is about the context of how Shane views things. And I think you touch on that there. Um, yeah. So thank you for writing in. Thanks, Billy. Here's Jenny Ryan.

[02:01:38] Oh, hey, Jenny. Hello, Jenny from Saskatoon here. I want to weigh in on the patriarchy conversation because, of course, I do. So I have to say, I think it's interesting how Rick talks about Lori like my wife, my

[02:01:56] child, my son, my unborn baby in a way that does seem possessive. But I think it's less the words and the way he says them and more the context in which they're being set.

[02:02:11] And I think perhaps that's the trigger point for a lot of us who find it upsetting. Because you're right, Jason, I don't think he's saying it in a particular... Like the words themselves aren't necessarily to me not necessarily as offensive as the context in which they're being said.

[02:02:29] So for example, I don't really believe that he loves Lori. I don't really believe... I think he's doing it out of duty or honor or chivalry, which are themselves perhaps antiquated and old timey ways of looking at relationship dynamics.

[02:02:51] So I think what we bristle at or what I bristle at is the fact that he's talking about Lori as a possession, but not because he loves her and needs her and wants her because she makes him better. He's saying it because it's like, she's mine, not yours.

[02:03:07] Shane... It's posturing, it's dick swinging, it's a pissing match. It's all those charming descriptors. But it's not necessarily him saying, I love her and she loves me and we are a family. I think what you asked Lucy what Rick could have said that would justify it.

[02:03:29] And I think he could have said, Lori chose me. She told me I'm the father of this baby. I know technically it's your genetics, but she wants me to be the father.

[02:03:40] But it's like Lori and Rick are holding on to what they think they're supposed to be doing. And I think that's what bothers me is that it's not about love, it's a power dynamic.

[02:03:51] It feels like a power play as opposed to a position of you can't come between us because we love each other so much. Now, the reason I feel so confident in saying this is because if you contrast it to Rick

[02:04:04] and Michonne, Rick and Michonne have a vastly different relationship from what I recall. They seem more like equals. And I think the thing about them is that Michonne and Rick are more like equals.

[02:04:19] And in fact, when Rick says statements like she's my wife, I can't remember exactly what he says, but he talks about my wife getting home to my wife. And there was a lot of debate like, well, are they even married?

[02:04:31] But he thinks about her as his wife, but not in a possessive way. We don't think that... I don't think we get triggered by those kinds of statements when Rick makes them about Michonne.

[02:04:41] It's because he's making them because he loves her and he knows she makes him better. She doesn't own him, he doesn't own her. They're equals. And I think that's the difference is that I don't think Rick ever felt like Lori was his equal.

[02:04:53] So I think that's maybe why it's weird because I don't think anyone was upset when he talked about Michonne like that, because it wasn't... Although I guess he never really said he owned her, but he did talk about like my wife. Anyway, okay, I'm not married.

[02:05:09] So what do I know? But anyway, you know, I've been around a while and I think if enough people are telling you that it's a problem, then it's a problem. Whether... You know what I mean? So I guess just trust us on this one. It's a problem. Okay.

[02:05:30] Goodbye, friends. I love you. Goodbye. Oh, I love Jenny. Goodbye. Can I make a statement that'll get me booted off this podcast? Yeah, let's do it. Zombies are lame. All right. This is controversial.

[02:05:42] I'm probably based on everything I'm hearing about this, but I think in the context of what the quandary is about the whole my wife thing, only really the person and the people involved get to determine if it's a triggering offense or not. Because there are many... Yeah.

[02:05:58] You know, while it might be triggering to many women, especially modern women, there are plenty of people in relationships that would not be... That actually like that, you know? Especially older couples. My wife's parents are very old fashioned and they very much would be...

[02:06:13] They see things that way. The whole patriarchy is cool in their mind. My parents are the complete opposite. My mom's very independent, et cetera. So I really think you have to take that into context. Some people, that is their relationship.

[02:06:27] And if both parties are comfortable and accepting of it, I don't think you can say that that's offensive to them. You can talk about as a viewer how you react to... I don't know. Absolutely. I'm just saying, I think that kind of gets lost in that conversation.

[02:06:42] Yeah, I was thinking about that too. It's respective to their lives. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's a problem. People say it's a problem, but as you can see, there's varied opinions on this, Jenny,

[02:06:53] and I think it's good to have a debate about it and it's all in good faith. And so it's good to talk about it. I mean, I think there's a lot of people who think things are a problem, but I don't.

[02:07:03] Like people think gay marriage is a problem and I don't think that's a problem. So I wouldn't accept that. I think I'm going to marry Jenny. That's my, that's where I'm at. And you will not refer to her as your wife, whatever you do.

[02:07:16] No, I shall refer to her as... Miss Ryan. My cleige. My queen. I don't know. Let me know, Jenny. Just let me know. Whatever. I'll figure it out. Is it me? Yep. It's you. One more. Oh, cool. Jodi Langridge has written in. She says, Hi Jason and Lucy.

[02:07:34] This episode is heartbreaking. Shane telling Rick, you want to take Daryl as your wingman? Be my guest. He knows their friendship can never go back to what it was and he is so lost. I almost think he wanted to be put out of his misery.

[02:07:44] He truly can't live with it. At the very end when he tells Rick, you've got a broken woman and a weak boy. He is just taunting him and he just wants it over. Andrea being a dick when Rick asks her to watch Shane. Come on, Andrea.

[02:07:56] What is with the attitude? I'm trying to like you this go round, but you're making it real hard. It is so interesting when you rewatch knowing what happens. Everything takes on a different meaning.

[02:08:06] When Shane gives Carl back Daryl's gun and says to him, you need to protect yourself. This is the same gun Carl shoots him in the head with. One of my all time favourite moments is when Daryl tells Rick, ain't no reason you should do all the heavy lifting.

[02:08:18] I loved it. He's basically saying I'm part of the team and I'm here for you. I also love that they say they want to drive Randall out to Senoia. Just a tiny shout out to future backdrops.

[02:08:28] Then of course we have the scene in the hail off between Rick and Carl. How could we know back then how important this conversation would be and how much meaning it takes on when we know what is going to happen in future and the music so great in

[02:08:40] these early seasons. How anyone ever believed that Randall got the better of Shane, I don't know. Daryl is on to him straight away. Rick also knew something was off, but he wanted to see where it would lead.

[02:08:51] The whole time they're walking through the woods together, the look on Rick's face on the soulful music at this point, Shane already looks like a walker. When Rick as Shane does this way feel right? We know he isn't talking about the actual direction they're going.

[02:09:04] The acting is so good between these two. RIP Shane Walsh. Did Shane rub his head every time he told a lie? Oh man, now I'm going to have to go back and watch again.

[02:09:13] Only on the walking dead would you give your son a speech about how everyone he loves is going to die before handing him a gun. Okay, now onto the cabassi episode. Cheers Jodie.

[02:09:24] PS, just a quick note on the last few weeks of in-depth debate as you're both interested in others thoughts. In the episode when Laurie was whispering in Rick's ear, she actually said to him, you killed the living to protect what's yours.

[02:09:37] Shane thinks I'm his, he thinks the baby's his. I think that had a lot to do with how he speaks to Shane and his choice of words. I don't believe in any way that Rick sees Laurie as his property but that he sees it as the

[02:09:47] only way of getting through to Shane as Shane is the one who thinks that way. I can fully understand how people's life experiences can make them feel differently about this scene and I wonder how they would have worded it if this was written today.

[02:09:59] Discussion is always great though and I love how both of you can have strong feelings about a subject but still respect the other's opinions. It's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you Jodie, that's a lovely letter. Thanks Jodie. Thanks. You have a wonderful reading voice. I'm just letting you know.

[02:10:12] Like it's very soothing. Oh thank you. Thank you Aaron. I should do like one of those sleepy time podcasts where I'm just like now I will read stories. It's relaxing and usually when I listen to people read listener emails I'm like oh god

[02:10:25] get to the end of it. I'm enraptured. It's story time. Jason, can you tease something? I'm just curious if you can tease something for the next episode. Is there any element or moment or tidbit that you might reveal on the next episode that

[02:10:42] you haven't spoken to publicly before about your experience on the show? Next episode, yeah. The reason why I got to be a walker is because one of the listeners I became friends with, her name is Gracie Liu.

[02:10:56] She ended up being a podcaster for a while doing under the comic covers and she was plugged into the whole extra network out there and she helped me get on it and she's going to be guesting next week with me.

[02:11:12] And we're going to talk about it and answer questions from listeners and so I'm sure stuff will come up. It's gonna be super fun. That's awesome. Yeah. All right. We have one more call and that's Owen from Leeds. Good morning.

[02:11:28] This is Owen in Leeds in England with a little bit of feedback for the Downfall of Shane season two episode 12 of The Walking Dead. And just very quickly if I may, for your thoughts on Daryl beating up Randall at the start of episode 11. I'll be honest.

[02:11:52] I think it was justified. I think Randall was a little twat. The way he described the group he was with assaulting, shall we say, the young girls and the dad watching on.

[02:12:07] He was saying it in such a creepy way when he's speaking to Kyle later on, he's a creep. And in this episode with Shane saying, hey, you'll fit in. It's like, nah, the guy's a dickhead and he deserves what he got. I feel no sympathy. Shane Darrell.

[02:12:23] This episode, I love Shane throughout the whole episode. Just everything about it. The conniving, the hiding his gun, the cracking his nose and scraping it up and down a tree. You're like, fuck, crazy man. And the finale, the moments with Rick where Rick lies to him.

[02:12:45] He tells him, you know, we can carry on. We can go again. And Shane, you know, he's lowering his weapon. He's accepting it. And he stabs him. Rick murdered Shane. Shane didn't do nothing wrong. Shane saved Rick's wife and son. Shane saved their lives.

[02:13:02] You can say that they saved him, but no, he saved them. He was the true hero in the story. Rick comes back, spoils it all when they're playing happy families. You know, before Rick turned up, they're all living happily in the mountains.

[02:13:18] You know, if it wasn't for Rick, there wouldn't be car alarms blaring when Glenn comes back, which gradually brings walkers there, which leads to the downfall and the death of Amy and Jim and the gang.

[02:13:32] So technically, when you really think about it, Shane's the good guy and Rick screwed him over. So I just want to take this moment to spare a thought for Shane and just let's just thank

[02:13:46] God that Jon Bernthal got the Punisher role and has done well with himself since. Three cheers for Shane. Hip hip! No. No? Hooray! Hope you well. Goodbye. No. Don't get bit. Aw, Owen. That was amazing. I love it. Love it. Rick's the villain. You heard it here.

[02:14:07] Heard it here first. That's funny. All right, that is our show, episode 584. Thanks for listening, everybody. Thank you, Aaron. Great to have you on. Oh, thanks for having me. Hope you had a good time. I did. Once again, thehollywoodoutsider.com, right? Thehollywoodoutsider.com. Yep.

[02:14:24] The Hollywood Outsider and Inspired by a True Story. Yeah, you can see Aaron's been a lot of fun and I definitely recommend going out and checking his other stuff out. Yeah, this was awesome. Well, anytime. Just let me know anytime.

[02:14:38] Next episode, Walking Dead season two, episode 13, Beside the Dying Fire, a particular favorite of mine. As I mentioned earlier, Gracie Liu, who appeared on the show with me as a walker, will be guesting

[02:14:52] and you might remember Gracie from Under the Comet Covers or Game of Microphones way back in the day. And so we'll be talking about the episode and just talking about what it was like to film it. I'm so excited.

[02:15:04] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And I would suggest if you have questions for the two actors, Jason and Gracie Liu,

[02:15:16] you could include those because they might be able to answer. Yeah, but you got to hurry because I think we're recording Wednesday. You might just have one. No, Wednesday. Yeah. Do it now. Do it now. Do it now. Do it right now.

[02:15:31] And while you're at podcastica.com, check out our other podcasts. I mean, I want to mention one that's not there yet, but it's coming up soon and that's Lucy and Peter's podcast about the bear. What are you calling it? We're going to call it Let It Rip.

[02:15:44] Let It Rip. That's a great name. So looking very much looking forward to seeing what that's like. And yeah, I'm sitting with my podcasting equipment right now thinking, how the fuck am I going to plug this in? So yeah, it'll work. It'll work.

[02:15:57] This episode made possible by Patreon supporters like Maggie, who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. Thank you, Maggie. She didn't have a last name, but I think it's green. I was gonna say, is it Maggie with five wells on her property?

[02:16:11] Because if so, we got you girl. One thing I usually mention a perk. One of our perks is we do a Patreon exclusive podcast every once in a while called the Z Head Show. And this one we're going to talk about our favorite modern directors.

[02:16:25] So that should be fun. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Billy Thompson.