22: Bruce Miller + Feedback for "Safe" (S5E10)

[00:00:00] I know it's heavy stuff, but I like doing this. This is fun for me. And you know, don't

[00:00:13] tell, I'm stealing their money. Don't, don't tell. So, so I'm very happy to be doing television

[00:00:19] at this level in a day and age when there's so much great TV and to stand out amongst

[00:00:25] that is just, it's wonderful. And you know, and there's also, you know, I think we've

[00:00:29] gotten the best performances of people's career out of a lot of people, which is such a wonderful

[00:00:33] thing.

[00:00:42] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne.

[00:00:46] And I'm Wendy.

[00:00:47] And I'm Jason.

[00:00:49] And this is The Handmaids Tale Podcast.

[00:00:51] This episode we have the great honor to interview the Handmaids Tale show runner, Bruce Miller.

[00:00:57] Woo! He still likes us even after last time.

[00:01:02] Yes.

[00:01:03] I know.

[00:01:04] We're going to be going through your feedback for Handmaids Tale Season 5 finale, safe.

[00:01:10] So we talked with Bruce, was it yesterday?

[00:01:12] Yes.

[00:01:13] And what'd you guys think?

[00:01:15] It was so much fun to get to talk with him about this season.

[00:01:20] He's just so contagious. Like he loves the show. He's the show's number one fan.

[00:01:26] Yes.

[00:01:27] And that's amazing.

[00:01:29] Yeah.

[00:01:30] He found the right job for himself.

[00:01:31] He really did.

[00:01:32] He created it.

[00:01:34] We're not going to spoil anything about what we talked about because you'll get to listen

[00:01:38] to that for yourself.

[00:01:40] But I think he answered some really cool questions about the show and beyond.

[00:01:46] So hope you guys enjoy it.

[00:01:57] We are here with Handmaids Tale show runner, Bruce Miller.

[00:02:01] Before we get started, Bruce, I just want to say thank you so much for another incredible

[00:02:06] season of the Handmaids Tale.

[00:02:10] You're very welcome.

[00:02:11] I'm so glad it was enjoyable in the way that our show is enjoyable.

[00:02:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:18] Which is not really enjoyable.

[00:02:19] But I mean this season actually felt like it had more fun moments with like hard

[00:02:27] knock life and freaking Bradley Whitford.

[00:02:33] So were you aware of just lightening it up at points a little bit?

[00:02:39] You know, I think it's a natural progression on a show where people like each other, honestly,

[00:02:44] that on the set, as much as you're trying to, it's still Bradley and his coworkers in

[00:02:50] addition to Lawrence and his minions.

[00:02:53] And so I think it can't, I mean in a good and bad way as you guys have seen it a million

[00:02:58] times kind of express itself in shows.

[00:03:01] And you know where all of a sudden characters who are supposed to have a spark don't seem

[00:03:05] to have a spark anymore because something happened off screen.

[00:03:08] But here it's kind of that they're even within the constructs of a very strict

[00:03:14] nasty story.

[00:03:15] They play around the edges enough because they're so comfortable with each other

[00:03:20] that I think in a good way bleeds over a little bit.

[00:03:23] And in some of the characters like Lawrence and Lydia, their relationship is progressing

[00:03:29] like that on screen.

[00:03:31] So they're becoming slightly more intimate on screen.

[00:03:33] And so his teasing of her becomes more believable because he knows more about her to tease.

[00:03:38] You know, before she was just kind of this fake idea of Aunt Lydia to all of us.

[00:03:46] And as we feel back, he's learned a little bit.

[00:03:48] And he makes fun of the same things that we do because how the hell could you think like this?

[00:03:52] So I think that in that way, as we get more

[00:03:57] wise and more comfortable pointing out all the absurdities in the show,

[00:04:02] the characters have to as well.

[00:04:03] Or we feel like we left them behind.

[00:04:05] That's great.

[00:04:06] With him in particular, we've so enjoyed him this season.

[00:04:09] And I wonder if you kind of have to restrain yourselves and avoid the

[00:04:12] temptation to give him even more funny lines all the time.

[00:04:15] He makes everything funny.

[00:04:17] And, you know, if you guys ever get a chance, you know, you can go.

[00:04:22] All the scripts are at the writer's guild.

[00:04:24] But you can see how anodyne has dialogue is.

[00:04:27] And you can also see how non.

[00:04:32] Iconic, busy's dialogue is and how she makes it iconic.

[00:04:36] And part of the way that we write the show is to get out of their way in that way,

[00:04:40] which is don't try to be funny for Bradley.

[00:04:45] Give Bradley Bradley what he needs to be funny.

[00:04:47] But the scripts are only funny if you do them in Bradley's voice in your head.

[00:04:52] They're not funny otherwise.

[00:04:54] And Lizzie is and and Lizzie is, you know, can makes these these first

[00:04:59] wash can make lines work that have been in a zillion other movies

[00:05:04] and zillion other places and she makes them work.

[00:05:06] But even in the scene, you believe that June knows they were.

[00:05:11] She knows she's saying a cliche from old movies.

[00:05:14] But she really means it.

[00:05:15] There's a moment where she says to Nick, I wish the world would just go away,

[00:05:19] which is like a line from a rom and she you can hear her knowing it as she says it,

[00:05:24] but still meaning it.

[00:05:25] I mean, it's that's just a.

[00:05:28] So what we try to do is to give them good pitches to hit.

[00:05:33] Yeah. And you've got such a great cast that they can just knock it out of the part.

[00:05:38] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:05:39] If you give them good pitches to hit, they can absolutely knock it out of the part.

[00:05:43] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:44] And you had Bradley Whitford, he directed an episode this season,

[00:05:49] which was different than what we've seen before.

[00:05:51] And I wondered, did you decide that he would direct this particular episode

[00:05:58] because of Lawrence's intensity?

[00:06:01] Or did he just read the scripts and say, OK, yeah, this is the one I want to do.

[00:06:07] It's nothing like that.

[00:06:08] It's all scheduled.

[00:06:10] You know, I never pick the person who ends up writing the episode.

[00:06:14] I never say, oh, that person's good at this kind of thing.

[00:06:17] They should go write that it's totally like your next stop.

[00:06:21] Whatever happens if it happens to be June and Serena in the barn giving birth.

[00:06:25] God bless. Oh, wow.

[00:06:26] That's to be the funeral.

[00:06:28] Have fun.

[00:06:29] You know, I didn't give Rachel Rachel Schroeder who wrote the episode seven.

[00:06:36] This was her first script on the show.

[00:06:38] I mean, she's a very experienced writer, but she was her first year.

[00:06:40] The first time she ever wrote anything on the show was that episode.

[00:06:45] Which one?

[00:06:46] Just because the episode seven where June and Serena are together in the barn

[00:06:50] giving birth. Oh my God. So. Wow.

[00:06:53] And now, but, you know, that's what you got to do.

[00:06:55] What about a home run?

[00:06:57] Right. Absolutely. So much.

[00:06:59] But that's because they gave her a pitch to hit.

[00:07:01] But you know, the thing about Bradley directing is Bradley came to me.

[00:07:07] The only rule I have is you can't direct unless you ask.

[00:07:10] You know, it's not fucking fourth grade.

[00:07:13] I'm not going to intimate what you think you might want to do.

[00:07:16] You have to come and say, I'd like to direct the television show.

[00:07:19] Like a grown up.

[00:07:20] And so that, you know, when everybody when anybody comes, we sit down,

[00:07:26] we have a discussion, all that kind of stuff.

[00:07:28] And Bradley, I mean, Bradley asked quite a while ago,

[00:07:31] we just couldn't fit him in the schedule.

[00:07:32] We only have 10 episodes a year.

[00:07:35] We usually shoot them in pairs.

[00:07:38] So that's five directors, five.

[00:07:42] And, you know, we try to hire as many as we can women.

[00:07:46] And then and then you try to hire women of color and women across,

[00:07:50] you know, every spectrum you can possibly imagine, including the autism spectrum.

[00:07:54] And you hire all of those people.

[00:07:57] And there's just not that many slots left.

[00:07:59] I mean, you know, there's just not that many slots that exist.

[00:08:02] And so if you hire one white guy, that's 20 percent of your season.

[00:08:09] I mean, it's like a ton of these episodes.

[00:08:12] So but you don't want to like people who have been asking since season one.

[00:08:16] And even as their careers have gone up, have come back year after year.

[00:08:21] So I'll move my schedule around. Please give me a shot.

[00:08:23] You know, these great directors, it's hard to say no to people

[00:08:26] who are that also that devoted to the show.

[00:08:28] So anyway, Brad, so Bradley, it was more about a schedule.

[00:08:32] And, you know, on every other show I've been on,

[00:08:37] when someone directs you very much think about the script

[00:08:41] that they're going to direct based on their character,

[00:08:43] based on what you know about the actor, especially he's directed

[00:08:46] a few times before other TV shows.

[00:08:47] So but but when they're early in their directing,

[00:08:50] you kind of think about and that never worked on any other TV show I worked on.

[00:08:55] It was so ridiculous because what you were doing is you were saying to someone,

[00:09:00] OK, you've met you've seen someone make pies every day for 10 years.

[00:09:04] Now we're going to ask you to make brownies.

[00:09:06] And you're like, I don't know how to make fucking brownies.

[00:09:08] I only know how to make pies.

[00:09:09] And if you so so if you change the kind of episode that they're doing,

[00:09:13] it's terrible. So.

[00:09:16] And it really came to bear when in season last season,

[00:09:21] when Lizzie directed for the first time, which is season four,

[00:09:24] and was he directed for the first time?

[00:09:26] And it turned out the episode.

[00:09:30] Bell on something where it was all her getting imprisoned.

[00:09:34] That was her first directing gig.

[00:09:36] And so she and I sat down or was like, and she's like,

[00:09:38] listen, I'm going to be there anyway.

[00:09:40] I might as well be doing both.

[00:09:43] And this is from someone who's never directed before.

[00:09:45] I might as well be acting in and and she did a spectacular job.

[00:09:49] But I think we I learned the lesson of don't, you know,

[00:09:53] don't try to shoot, let them find something in it that they love.

[00:09:56] Don't try to do that for them.

[00:09:58] And Bradley found so much.

[00:10:00] I mean, you know, he he's been on the show for a while.

[00:10:04] He's immersed himself in it.

[00:10:06] He I mean, he's a big fan of the show.

[00:10:07] So but I didn't pick the episode for him in any way, shape or form.

[00:10:14] And just like, you know, you kind of write dialogue that

[00:10:17] anybody else might be nothing.

[00:10:18] And for him, it's wonderful, but it's the same line of dialogue.

[00:10:20] So it's the same script.

[00:10:22] I see Elizabeth Moss directed the finale and man, we were just blown away by the finale.

[00:10:29] And I was particularly wondering, I noticed there was a lot of very artful,

[00:10:35] I guess, cinematography to sort of make us feel disoriented, kind of like her character.

[00:10:43] And I wonder, does the director do that or is that somebody else's doing?

[00:10:48] I mean, whatever it was, she did an incredible job.

[00:10:52] What it is, is yeah, it's it's the execution of the director's vision by everybody that does it.

[00:10:57] Because, you know, what the effect you're getting, you know,

[00:11:01] a lot of that is the sound design department that comes much, much later.

[00:11:04] So the cinematographer has an effect, but not on the sound department.

[00:11:07] The director has an effect on both that and the sound department.

[00:11:10] And I have an effect on the director.

[00:11:13] And but I don't go off and poke those departments.

[00:11:17] The director says, hey, I'd like to I'd like this to be kind of a dizzy scene.

[00:11:21] Or I say to her, I'd like this to be, you know, kind of make sure you stay

[00:11:24] in June's point of view is what I would say.

[00:11:25] You know, the show does best when it's in June's point of view.

[00:11:28] And it makes this show really simple, which is you just say, well,

[00:11:30] what would June be feeling?

[00:11:31] And then you try to make that happen.

[00:11:33] And that's why she's looking underneath the truck

[00:11:35] and seeing the guy fall down on the other side.

[00:11:38] It's all because it's point of view.

[00:11:39] It's all point of view because you're experiencing the show as June would see it.

[00:11:43] And if you look back, I mean, if you look back to the pilot in the pilot,

[00:11:47] there are two, I think two moments that are not from June's point of view

[00:11:52] in the entire pilot.

[00:11:54] So there's one moment where a wooks at the car and she runs into the woods.

[00:11:57] I mean, literally, that's the only shot we see her disappearing into the woods

[00:12:00] or at Wook's POV.

[00:12:02] The rest of the time when in June's POV, she loses consciousness.

[00:12:05] We lose consciousness.

[00:12:06] She wakes up and all of that stuff.

[00:12:08] The only other shot is Serena on the bed after June leaves after the ceremony

[00:12:14] and Serena gets upset about what had happened.

[00:12:19] She tears up, she lights a cigarette, she says, just get out to Chajun in the pilot.

[00:12:24] That is set up Serena's character all the way to the end of this season.

[00:12:28] That one moment.

[00:12:29] So those are the two moments you're not in her.

[00:12:31] But it's such a POV show and it makes it a lot easier because what it means

[00:12:36] is there are lots of things I want June to be like me.

[00:12:39] So how do I how did I experience January 6th was?

[00:12:44] I mean, actually came the other way around.

[00:12:46] But the way that we did the television talking about the attack on the Capitol

[00:12:52] in the White House was how I experienced 9-11.

[00:12:54] I mean, it's like, you don't I don't see it happen.

[00:12:57] I maybe see it on television, but I hear about it.

[00:13:00] That's what happens.

[00:13:01] So I want to so you think you've experienced

[00:13:04] just seeing all these things in the show that you haven't.

[00:13:07] You've experienced like June, which actually is a kind of some ways much more

[00:13:11] of a real experience because that's the way we experience it.

[00:13:13] You know, that really leads into my next question because this season

[00:13:17] really felt like it was it was about two women.

[00:13:20] It was about Serena and June and a lot of Serena's perspective at which we loved.

[00:13:26] And I have a few questions about that.

[00:13:29] But my first one, what was Yvonne Strahovsky's reaction to these developments?

[00:13:34] And I wonder if she enjoyed getting to play the softer, more vulnerable side of Serena

[00:13:38] at times for once.

[00:13:40] I think absolutely she she enjoyed it.

[00:13:42] And it wasn't

[00:13:45] you know, it's so much more complicated for her than a softer side because it's

[00:13:49] like for us, that's kind of how it feels.

[00:13:51] But for her, it's like some sort of

[00:13:54] the level of multidimensional emotional chess that she plays.

[00:13:59] She's the most lovely, funny, normal human.

[00:14:03] I mean, she's like a 14 year old boy.

[00:14:05] She doesn't who looks like Grace Kelly, but she's much more like like, you know,

[00:14:09] she likes to go shopping for clothes once a year if she has to.

[00:14:13] You know, those kind of things.

[00:14:14] She goes camping with her boys.

[00:14:16] She's got these two sons.

[00:14:17] She's absolutely fantastic.

[00:14:19] But she is a brain when it comes to acting spectacular.

[00:14:23] So when when she is challenged by something interesting or confronted

[00:14:30] by something interesting, she gets gilly happy.

[00:14:32] So that's my experience of her is not this.

[00:14:37] I get to not even kind of digging deep.

[00:14:39] Just the idea of so excited to have a shovel.

[00:14:41] I never even see her.

[00:14:42] She goes and digs on her own.

[00:14:44] Every once in a while, she comes over and says, oh, I.

[00:14:47] Does this, you know, why are you doing this?

[00:14:49] And I always say, well, I was thinking about doing this.

[00:14:51] She goes, I already thought of that.

[00:14:52] And what about this?

[00:14:53] And you say, well, she went out.

[00:14:54] No, she wouldn't do that.

[00:14:56] And so it's great because she doesn't come to you until she absolutely has,

[00:15:00] you know, done absolutely everything on her.

[00:15:02] And it's so fun because you sit there and you go, you're so fucking smart.

[00:15:06] It's like, dude, you have the answer.

[00:15:07] Those are the answers.

[00:15:08] Don't look back.

[00:15:09] You already told me what the answer is.

[00:15:11] And so she's so, so, so good.

[00:15:13] So I think the challenge and the change in the

[00:15:16] and not not necessarily the softening of her POV, but the constant

[00:15:21] adding of layers of complexity as she has more experiences in the world,

[00:15:25] including profound ones like having a kid.

[00:15:28] Those things definitely give her more of her character to play.

[00:15:35] Kind of spreads the ink spot out a little bit.

[00:15:37] It isn't necessarily an edge, but it is something that becomes part of her character.

[00:15:41] So I think the nice thing this year was that there weren't as many kind of.

[00:15:49] She had a lot more choices this year than in the previous years.

[00:15:52] She was not as locked up when she has choices, when she's active.

[00:15:57] It's a Polaris show.

[00:15:59] She's just so, so smart and narcissistic and like merciless.

[00:16:08] I just, you know, and on the on the Serena of it all,

[00:16:15] the excuse me, the Yvonne of it all, Yvonne and Lizzie now have been working

[00:16:20] together for a very long time, Lizzie's directed Yvonne.

[00:16:23] They've gotten, I mean, when we started the show, Yvonne was moving in with her

[00:16:28] boyfriend and now she has two children and she's married.

[00:16:30] So people have really lived their lives together.

[00:16:33] When they're so when you get to this season, it can be about those two actors

[00:16:37] and they're so it isn't like, you know, what you hope is you get there.

[00:16:41] And it isn't like you dug and hit the bottom of what these characters can do.

[00:16:46] It's like, oh my God, I just scratched the surface and put it together in season

[00:16:50] five and there's still this interesting.

[00:16:53] So I so much of it is about the the absolute glee,

[00:16:59] magnetism, enthusiasm of Elizabeth Moss and Yvonne Strahovsky when they're together.

[00:17:04] I mean, it is the opposite of they are having so much fun.

[00:17:08] They're they enjoy it so much and they push each other so hard.

[00:17:13] And it's just I mean, you can see it in the birth scene.

[00:17:15] They're both supposed to look exhausted.

[00:17:17] They look glowed.

[00:17:18] They look so good.

[00:17:20] We couldn't make them ugly no matter what we did because they were so happy.

[00:17:22] Doing.

[00:17:24] You know, it's an incredible episode.

[00:17:26] That's amazing.

[00:17:27] I want to I'm sure you didn't answer your question.

[00:17:30] No, you did.

[00:17:31] We got some color on Yvonne and her personality and how she responded to all that.

[00:17:34] So that's great.

[00:17:36] I just one more for me about Serena.

[00:17:38] This is something that we've talked about a lot on the podcast and that our

[00:17:41] listeners have opinions about.

[00:17:44] There's always talk about how big a part Serena played in the creation of

[00:17:48] Gilead. Some say, oh, this is not at all what she had in mind.

[00:17:51] But others say, yes, she helps make this nation.

[00:17:54] And so she's culpable.

[00:17:56] And I wonder what your thoughts are on all of that.

[00:17:59] Well, my first I'll say culpable or not is not my decision.

[00:18:04] So I'm not I don't point the finger like that.

[00:18:07] I mean, how responsible she is, how much how much punishment she deserves since

[00:18:12] she's done is is not my job, even in the role of pseudo God showrunner.

[00:18:17] That's not my job to judge her.

[00:18:19] So I've got to write when I write Serena, I'm writing the Serena show.

[00:18:24] So it's from her point of view.

[00:18:26] She was one voice amongst hundreds of thousands of people.

[00:18:31] She's someone who you know today.

[00:18:33] She's Laura Ingraham kind of that edge of things.

[00:18:37] It's like it's just someone, another author expressing something.

[00:18:40] But it kind of, A, she was a good speaker.

[00:18:43] B, she looked like a Von Strahowski.

[00:18:45] And it's like, oh my god.

[00:18:46] And also her she was very like it's like a very strong woman advocating

[00:18:54] for a role for women you imagine her in.

[00:18:57] So all of those things made it very make it much more palatable.

[00:19:01] I think the you know, you know, it's kind of like the extreme movements now.

[00:19:06] If you put them all together and had them try to sort out how to what laws

[00:19:11] to put on the books from their different philosophies.

[00:19:14] A lot of them will be shocked what ends up on the books either disappointed

[00:19:18] it isn't extreme enough or shocked that it's way too extreme.

[00:19:21] And I think that's where Serena got caught was in the details.

[00:19:25] If you just think about we have to find some way to encourage and end

[00:19:30] to the fertility crisis, could easily turn into handmaids in people's homes.

[00:19:35] And as a regular, ritualized state sanctioned rape comes from a very thin idea.

[00:19:42] Like we should encourage that.

[00:19:44] And that turns into that.

[00:19:45] And that's where it happened is it's all about the definition of every single word,

[00:19:49] you know, you you you throw out there.

[00:19:52] So I think that it

[00:19:55] everybody was talking in euphemisms at the beginning, but no one knew what they're

[00:19:58] each other's euphemisms quite met.

[00:20:01] So but I do also think that Serena.

[00:20:06] Beyond the philosophical underpinnings,

[00:20:09] I think she was it was much more that she was a

[00:20:13] encourager and an inspirational person, not just to the public, but to the man around

[00:20:19] her. She really, really was was a leader and gave them a lot of cover emotionally

[00:20:25] to understand what they were doing.

[00:20:27] But also I think it's much more she was much more about

[00:20:31] knocking down the government.

[00:20:33] I think that's was the part she thought was fun.

[00:20:35] I don't think she was much of a builder.

[00:20:36] I think she was really happy when she was the woman who who, you know,

[00:20:42] you know, walked out on their January 6th and was the new speaker of the house.

[00:20:47] She was very happy.

[00:20:48] I'm feeling more and more like Lawrence is like that to this season,

[00:20:51] that he just had no respect for the United States government and what it

[00:20:56] brought in his view.

[00:20:58] Yeah, it's yeah, it's like it's it's I think for him it's why

[00:21:03] why respect a weak failure?

[00:21:05] Yeah, you know what?

[00:21:06] And you know, if the only thing you can respect about it is kind of the myth

[00:21:10] surrounding it. But for her, a lot of it is how could you respect a country

[00:21:14] that allowed women to be treated the way they're treated now right now?

[00:21:19] I mean, when you look at Gillian and go, oh my God, how could they how could

[00:21:22] those people sit there and let their government allow that much rape?

[00:21:25] How much rape do we allow in this country every day?

[00:21:28] I mean, it's like you look at their country and also all the way people

[00:21:32] talk about refugees and how people treat refugees on the show is so interesting

[00:21:36] just because our country in some ways is so unwelcoming that we don't even

[00:21:41] were so much less welcoming that we don't even see them anymore.

[00:21:45] We we've kept them completely out.

[00:21:46] So people are like, God, it's shocking if we had refugees here,

[00:21:49] we'd be so welcoming. It's like, no, no, no, we're so unwelcoming.

[00:21:52] We don't have refugees here. Yeah.

[00:21:54] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:56] I'm an avid fan of the character Mark Tuello.

[00:22:00] My co-workers like to tease me about it.

[00:22:03] But it I mean, Sam's wonderful and certainly very attractive.

[00:22:08] But really, it's Sam's characterization,

[00:22:13] the intensity of the character.

[00:22:15] And I think also partially what is so attractive about that is that we don't

[00:22:22] really know a lot about Mark's backstory.

[00:22:25] We don't really know anything about his personal life.

[00:22:28] And in some ways, I think that makes him more mysterious.

[00:22:31] That makes him more we want to know.

[00:22:34] And so my my questions about that is, is it purposeful that you haven't shown

[00:22:40] that or is that something the show might give us in the future?

[00:22:44] It's certainly something this show might give us in the future.

[00:22:46] And I agree, Sam is Sam Yeager who plays Mark Tuello is wonderful.

[00:22:51] And I think a lot of the desire to get to know him comes from the actor,

[00:22:55] not from us, is that he plays things in such a way where you feel like there's

[00:22:59] something slightly else going on.

[00:23:01] And and honestly, the scene that I wrote,

[00:23:05] or I mean, we all write stuff together,

[00:23:08] sorry, between Serena and Mark where they meet,

[00:23:12] wasn't necessarily that that crystal, that that sexy.

[00:23:17] They did a ton of that in the scene because I know that we wrote it

[00:23:21] in a way that could go on in different ways.

[00:23:24] You could go a ton of different ways.

[00:23:25] But when she says, you know, all you've offered me is what?

[00:23:29] And coconuts, treason and coconuts,

[00:23:31] trees and coconuts immediately see them both in their bathing suits

[00:23:34] on the beach together. It's like, oh my God.

[00:23:36] You know, so they and both of them were adorable about how how

[00:23:41] what sparkly, sparkly their characters are because in person,

[00:23:44] they're sweet and friends and there isn't that sparky spark

[00:23:48] but between Serena and Mark.

[00:23:50] So I the desire to kind of know him and those colors that you've got

[00:23:56] a glimpse of under come from the actor.

[00:23:59] But I the fact is almost everybody or everybody we've seen only

[00:24:05] interacts with him professionally, June only interacts with professionally.

[00:24:09] So from a point of view, we don't know anything about Mark that you

[00:24:13] wouldn't know because what we won't learn.

[00:24:16] So my feeling is this is what June knows now in some ways.

[00:24:19] And she, I think at a few points has reached out and maybe we could be a little

[00:24:25] closer, he doesn't that's he this is his job.

[00:24:28] And when he said you came to my house, he's right.

[00:24:31] I mean, he's worked with a million Junes.

[00:24:33] I know her trauma is traumatic, but he's worked with a million.

[00:24:37] And I'm not exaggerating the number.

[00:24:39] A million people who have been raped by by Gilead and brought in and were

[00:24:44] traumatized. And so I think that he needs his Sunday off, but he's not wrong.

[00:24:48] Unless Serena shows up at his house and then he's going to be fine with that.

[00:24:52] Maybe, right?

[00:24:53] Let's say I'll comment on that that Mark

[00:24:57] was very, very good at his job and he's doing his job.

[00:25:01] Oh, interesting.

[00:25:02] Of course, he's doing his job.

[00:25:04] And if you look at just the same, you look at June, June told Serena,

[00:25:08] bite your time and get revenge.

[00:25:10] And she says, is that what you did?

[00:25:12] She goes, look at Fred and look at you, dude.

[00:25:14] I mean, look, you're you're in jail, Fred's in pieces.

[00:25:18] I'm free. What do you think happened?

[00:25:21] So if you say to Mark, well, how did you do it?

[00:25:24] He goes, well, I met this woman.

[00:25:26] I got her to betray her husband and bring him over and then get him to talk.

[00:25:31] And I got so much out of him that I actually could throw his bones to this

[00:25:35] other woman who's helping me now.

[00:25:37] And you've told me basically everything.

[00:25:40] And you completely trust me.

[00:25:41] I have gotten every piece of information out of you and you still think I'm on your

[00:25:45] team. So from that point of view, I mean, all of it could be false.

[00:25:50] From another point of view, it could all be real.

[00:25:52] And he's still just be doing this job.

[00:25:53] He has a, you know, it's like sometimes the scientists like the monkey that they're

[00:25:58] testing, you know, but I mean, that's the monkey.

[00:26:01] There's like Russian

[00:26:03] tactics of using spies to get into relationships with people.

[00:26:07] And I'm sure some actual emotions might get tangled up in there sometimes.

[00:26:11] Because, you know, in his regard, I'm sure he isn't doing this with anybody else.

[00:26:16] And also he

[00:26:18] he does have a respect for her because

[00:26:21] for you imagine what he did before and what he does all the time is he studies

[00:26:25] Serena Joy-Waterford. So just out of that, you'd get she is a respectable

[00:26:30] impressive person.

[00:26:31] I think it increases his level of disappointment.

[00:26:34] But a lot of this is how I feel versus how

[00:26:38] Sam feels and versus how Yvonne feels and versus how Lizzie feels,

[00:26:41] all of which are valid and we have conversations about all of that.

[00:26:45] Because Sam brings a lot to the character.

[00:26:47] It's the it's the great thing about television.

[00:26:49] You guys, I'm sure can see this is that

[00:26:54] you can write for your actors in television.

[00:26:56] You can't do that in features because you finish the movie and then you

[00:26:59] watch it go, oh, those two didn't have chemistry.

[00:27:01] And it's like, what are you going to do then?

[00:27:03] But I can like, you know, you watch the scene with Sam and Yvonne.

[00:27:09] That was Sam's one scene in the show.

[00:27:11] There was no scene too.

[00:27:13] Right. So he had that one scene and you watch

[00:27:17] but you get to watch it go Sam does this and that makes Yvonne do this.

[00:27:21] Let's see. So not only are you getting to play with the characters,

[00:27:24] but you're going to play with the characters specifically with those actors.

[00:27:28] So Yvonne is so has has I mean, she's a spectacular actress.

[00:27:32] But the stuff that she could do is so complicated and interesting that us for

[00:27:36] writers, it's like you never I mean, it's busy too.

[00:27:39] Of course, you never get to play with that kind of instrument.

[00:27:42] So for us, we're giving them room and pushing them in little directions.

[00:27:47] But they're just as much building that on their own.

[00:27:50] And the communication can't just be one way.

[00:27:53] It can't be us dropping scripts on them and then playing them.

[00:27:56] But it has to be again, Yvonne coming back and what the hell did you mean here?

[00:28:00] You know, are you watching?

[00:28:02] What what like sparks and writing to that a little bit?

[00:28:05] Yeah, but also when I edit it together and add music and add sounds and sparks,

[00:28:09] when there's no music, no sound and it's edited differently,

[00:28:12] it seems like a business one.

[00:28:13] And and they don't know how they're going to edit together.

[00:28:18] And then they watch to see what it felt like because there's 60,000 elements

[00:28:22] that aren't there on the day that help a ton.

[00:28:26] I mean, if you are show

[00:28:27] I'm very cognizant about music starting too early.

[00:28:32] I hate when the music gets ahead of the characters in the audience.

[00:28:35] I want the character to feel it, you to feel it and then the music to help.

[00:28:39] I don't want to amplify the music comes up and makes you

[00:28:42] yeah, except when it's going to be funny, like, you know, like the music

[00:28:47] at Lawrence's wedding in the finale, the

[00:28:49] doodoo doodoo doodoo.

[00:28:51] What's the better one?

[00:28:52] And it was hilarious.

[00:28:53] And so I was planning to what's called

[00:28:56] pre-lapped it, which is play it over the scene before to cover the cut.

[00:29:01] But the scene before I forgot what it was,

[00:29:03] but it really didn't work at the end of the scene before.

[00:29:05] So it comes right in.

[00:29:06] But playing that music and kind of if you just there are so many elements

[00:29:11] that if you change one in a TV show, I'm sure you guys get screeners.

[00:29:15] Sometimes with the music's different or different or not mixed or all

[00:29:19] that kind of stuff, you should sometimes ask for one dry,

[00:29:22] which is no music at all.

[00:29:23] Yeah, it's a completely different viewing experience.

[00:29:26] I'm sure I saw something.

[00:29:27] I think it was Ron Howard narrating something about music and you just see

[00:29:30] a man walking and they played some like spy music.

[00:29:33] And then they played some adventure music with the exact same scene.

[00:29:36] And it just felt completely different.

[00:29:37] It's Adam Taylor who writes our music is a

[00:29:41] he's a spectacularly he's spectacular.

[00:29:44] Good job. He's very creative.

[00:29:46] This is his first job in television.

[00:29:48] And he's remarkable and musically he does exactly what I want and more.

[00:29:54] But he doesn't

[00:29:56] watch the episodes or read the scripts until it's time for him to watch with me

[00:30:02] in the post people to decide where the music is going to go.

[00:30:05] So it's already finished.

[00:30:07] So we get this great first watch from him

[00:30:13] because he doesn't know what's going to happen and he's so invested.

[00:30:16] I mean, he's the perfect fan watches every episode a zillion times,

[00:30:20] but never until that moment because that's worth you watching.

[00:30:22] And so he's and he's very emotional.

[00:30:25] So he's crying and it was like, look, she's not on the plane.

[00:30:29] Don't I mean, he's like he's everything just tells him it's wonderful.

[00:30:33] But that's where the music comes from the heightened music.

[00:30:36] He could push it into but he has the chance to

[00:30:39] but you have to have someone like that who's like, you know,

[00:30:42] well, you know, well, you know, emotional voodoo doll to feel everything

[00:30:45] deeply and then help you feel a little bit more.

[00:30:48] Awesome.

[00:30:49] That particular scene that you're talking about with them walking around at the

[00:30:55] wedding or prepping for the wedding, maybe such

[00:30:59] steppard-wise vibes because there's a couple of scenes in both of my movies

[00:31:04] where women are shopping and it's just it's just that's the time

[00:31:11] and I feel like it really set a similar tone.

[00:31:15] We definitely watch Lizzie and Nick, who's the RDP for

[00:31:20] the finale episode, watched a ton of thrillers and horror movies more.

[00:31:26] I mean, we watch a lot of thrillers anyway.

[00:31:27] And Lizzie is since she's been directing has gone from insane to

[00:31:32] carnivorous when it comes to watching movies, you know, watching old movies and stuff.

[00:31:37] So there's a lot of stuff in there that's

[00:31:40] that's either on homage or stolen directly from all sorts of stuff.

[00:31:45] And I think what you want to do is,

[00:31:51] you know, it's like talking about the scene we were just talking about,

[00:31:54] what you want to do is make sure that it doesn't distract,

[00:31:57] that the camera doesn't distract.

[00:31:59] And so and so when when you're doing kind of this very, very

[00:32:04] thrillery, horrory version of a pretty thrillery, horrory show,

[00:32:08] you don't want to just pick and choose like, oh, I'm going to do this shot from this

[00:32:12] thing and this iconic shot from this thing.

[00:32:14] And I think Lizzie visually is very good at not making you feel like the fancy

[00:32:20] shots stand out too much, which is I think is one of the big

[00:32:23] faults, which is what makes her I'm sure I didn't answer your question,

[00:32:26] but what make her such a good director?

[00:32:28] So this season we saw possibly a rift between Nick and Lawrence

[00:32:34] and Nick Punch Lawrence in the face.

[00:32:37] And Wendy thinks they're actually still together and it's a big conspiracy.

[00:32:44] Wendy, you're so much smarter than I am.

[00:32:48] If you read the show, it'd be so much more interesting.

[00:32:52] Generally, I try not to hide too much stuff from the audience like that.

[00:32:56] That you know, and so almost it's like, you know, at the end of the

[00:33:01] point in season four where where Janine might have been dead, people were saying,

[00:33:05] oh, I see her in the back in the smoke and I'm like,

[00:33:09] that's how would I do that to you guys? Am I that unclear?

[00:33:12] So if I think you would know that there was some sort of something on the table,

[00:33:16] Wendy, if if if I had done that.

[00:33:19] But is it over? Absolutely not.

[00:33:21] I mean, they desperately need each other.

[00:33:23] They're in business together.

[00:33:25] They're not in love and and do they I don't think they trust each other

[00:33:29] anyway. Nick, you know,

[00:33:33] that Lawrence figured he'd get punched in the face a long time ago by Nick

[00:33:38] for a big but Nick has been really trying to go OK, you know,

[00:33:43] I'm going to forget about June.

[00:33:44] I'm not going to be and that has failed.

[00:33:47] But the entire season, I think Lawrence every once in a while said,

[00:33:50] I'm trying to get her to come to New Bethlehem.

[00:33:54] Because that's that's I think that's how he was feeling is that they

[00:33:57] that anything because because I think he feels like Nick is unpredictable

[00:34:03] to him because he lets his emotions drive his actions, not only in the face

[00:34:08] of logic or reason, but disregarding logic and reason, which is something

[00:34:13] Lawrence can't do.

[00:34:14] Lawrence can't not see the logical or reasonable way through,

[00:34:17] even if he knows not to do it.

[00:34:20] But it drives him crazy if everybody else can't see the logical way through.

[00:34:24] Luke, but Nick doesn't consider that he's a romantic.

[00:34:27] So I mean, I always think of him as more romantic.

[00:34:30] Yeah.

[00:34:30] You know, and I mean this in this relationship with Nick and Rose has been

[00:34:34] really interesting to figure out what they're all about.

[00:34:37] And my sense is that they're kind of like Luke and June.

[00:34:41] They're in they love each other, but Nick and June also love each other.

[00:34:47] Well, well, yeah, I mean, we're just starting to kind of figure out.

[00:34:51] I have a sense of Nick and Rose's relationship, but not much more of a

[00:34:54] sense in what you've seen, because, you know,

[00:34:58] technically how I do the show is you're not creating the whole world.

[00:35:02] I'm only giving you little.

[00:35:03] So I try to leave myself open, flexibility.

[00:35:06] I know it kind of ruins it for the actors and for you guys.

[00:35:09] I think there isn't a real Nick out there, but it helps me respond to

[00:35:14] the actors and you guys, because if I think Nick is X-way,

[00:35:19] but Max plays him another way to bring him back and play him X-way is to,

[00:35:26] you know, is we're at odds with each other.

[00:35:29] You know, so I try not to give too many

[00:35:33] glimpses of that I don't have to of their past.

[00:35:36] I'm trying to fill in things very, very, very carefully so that you guys

[00:35:39] see the illusion of a picture, but it is it is an illusion.

[00:35:43] But I think Lawrence,

[00:35:45] I think Lawrence and Nick meet each other.

[00:35:47] Lawrence doesn't have very many people who who he understands, much less trusts.

[00:35:52] I think he I think Warren was excellent,

[00:35:54] because Warren was a snake and he could understand the snake.

[00:35:57] But now he doesn't he doesn't have any friends now that war is done.

[00:36:01] But I think that Lawrence is going through the same situation he went through

[00:36:06] before, which is eventually trying to get to the top.

[00:36:11] He is making moral choices that are gradually offending everybody in his

[00:36:16] orbit who has a moral compass.

[00:36:18] And when his wife was alive, it was her.

[00:36:21] And at some points it was June and now it's Nick, but he never ever.

[00:36:25] I mean, he doesn't understand that he stepped over some sort of line effort.

[00:36:29] He doesn't understand. He doesn't know what a line he just doesn't see it as a line.

[00:36:33] You know, if June dies yet, sad, but you know, there's lots of people in the

[00:36:38] world and June is one of them and we're going to move on.

[00:36:40] That's what he's a big picture guy kind of for.

[00:36:42] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:43] And his big he's like, what are those people?

[00:36:46] He likes humanity, but he hates humans.

[00:36:49] I've rewatched parts of season two in preparation for you coming on our podcast

[00:36:53] and I couldn't help but see the dramatic change that has happened in Canada

[00:36:57] from the beginning of the show to where we are at the end of season five.

[00:37:01] We go from Canada violently protesting the Waterford's presence on their soil

[00:37:06] and them being ceremonies ceremoniously escorted out of the country

[00:37:11] to where we are now extremists in Canada violently attacking the refugees and

[00:37:16] attempting to create a little Gilead in Canada.

[00:37:19] And I sort of wondered what was your inspiration to show this evolution that's

[00:37:25] happening in Canada?

[00:37:27] Well, I think we live in a time where people there's a lot of political

[00:37:31] screaming at each other, so it's just our time and not anything specific.

[00:37:38] You know, certainly there was, you know, I was surprised that there was such a

[00:37:41] kind of angry, loud right wing in Canada that that that sprouted up

[00:37:47] immediately as soon as they saw an angry, loud, right wing white group in America.

[00:37:52] I was surprised about that.

[00:37:55] But, you know, my sense is that those things all seem inevitable.

[00:38:01] Once the first once you have the first scene where someone's yelling,

[00:38:05] there's always another group to yell back.

[00:38:08] And that's so if you see the scene where they where they push to get

[00:38:12] Fred and Serena pushed out of the country,

[00:38:15] that's the beginning of what you see at the end here is because if,

[00:38:20] you know, the passion on both sides, but here, you know, and also we did a

[00:38:24] ton of research with the U.N.

[00:38:25] There's like a two, three, four year period where it's OK.

[00:38:29] And then the host country starts to get tired of the other people as a group.

[00:38:34] And then they start wanting them to get out.

[00:38:35] And then it gets by when I mean all of this stuff follows exactly along our research

[00:38:40] track and the people who say that Canadians would never do that.

[00:38:44] I don't think, you know, understand.

[00:38:47] I mean, you know how many Americans there would be there?

[00:38:49] There would be, you know,

[00:38:51] twenty five million Americans, you know, double quadruple the size of Toronto.

[00:38:56] It would just be the biggest thing that ever happened in the world.

[00:38:59] The biggest movement of people ever.

[00:39:00] So I think that to say it strains on the the society of Canada is

[00:39:08] making it making a very weak, weak case.

[00:39:11] You know, they've been nice and open for a very long time.

[00:39:14] And I think they've absorbed a lot of people into their economy.

[00:39:18] But you will understand why people get get, you know, tired of that.

[00:39:23] But it isn't, you know, I don't know that that that Canada is radicalizing.

[00:39:28] I think it's just it's just the voices that are screaming louder.

[00:39:32] I don't think the weight ever changed.

[00:39:33] Yeah.

[00:39:34] And it's really fascinating to see the Americans as the refugees, which you don't,

[00:39:39] you know, just to sort of give us a sense of what it's like on the other side.

[00:39:43] You know, you know, it's scary when it happens to someone who looks like us.

[00:39:47] It's scary or when it happens to an American.

[00:39:49] That's exactly.

[00:39:50] But maybe we'll have people feeling more empathy towards refugees around the world.

[00:39:54] Exactly. You hope.

[00:39:55] Yeah. You hope.

[00:39:56] I mean, it always strikes me as very strange that I think I'm incredibly

[00:40:00] ham-fisted with the chef and I always feel like I'm being way too on the nose.

[00:40:04] And then there's people who don't, you know, don't see any parallel to anything

[00:40:09] that's going on.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:11] Well, it's another instance where so much of the novel

[00:40:15] Margaret Atwood said that she took from things in history.

[00:40:19] And I feel like the show has just continued that with other things that have gone

[00:40:25] on in the world. It just continues.

[00:40:28] And no, absolutely.

[00:40:29] We follow the same precept, which is, I mean, especially with the cruelty towards women,

[00:40:34] you don't want to have anything that hasn't happened to women or is happening to women.

[00:40:39] Unfortunately, there's a lot to choose from.

[00:40:41] But if you start just kind of inventing cruelties for people,

[00:40:45] you can do that all day long.

[00:40:47] And and, you know, you know, I don't like those movies where they just cut

[00:40:52] people apart and it turns into pornography or some kind of straight pornography.

[00:40:57] So I think the idea that that, you know, there are plenty of real cruelties

[00:41:01] for us to choose from. We do not have to go, you know, try to like say,

[00:41:05] oh, people are bad, but let's imagine, you know, they're even worse.

[00:41:09] It's like, man, it's fine.

[00:41:11] They already do bad enough things.

[00:41:14] We don't need to put ideas in their head.

[00:41:17] Right.

[00:41:18] All right. Anyone else have any other questions?

[00:41:21] I do.

[00:41:23] We love Genevieve.

[00:41:25] Angelson, is that how you say it?

[00:41:27] Genevieve, I don't I'm so bad remembering people's names.

[00:41:31] But yes, Mrs. Wheeler is wonderful.

[00:41:33] She's an amazing actor and we got to talk a little bit before she started working

[00:41:38] and I had no idea she was so weak.

[00:41:40] She was so little.

[00:41:42] And it's great.

[00:41:44] And it's just I had no idea because it found such a set, you know,

[00:41:47] towering. So it works so, so well because you just want to pop her in the

[00:41:51] little nose.

[00:41:52] Yes, it's so interesting to see Serena have to deal with Serena 2.0.

[00:41:59] Right. Or Serena 0.5.

[00:42:01] Yeah, right.

[00:42:02] Right. Exactly. True.

[00:42:05] That's good. That's better.

[00:42:06] I wondered we kind of all wondered like

[00:42:10] people thought initially from the start that Mrs.

[00:42:14] Wheeler intended on taking Serena's baby.

[00:42:16] But I thought not since they were hoping she'd marry her

[00:42:20] kind of collegeist, but then just based on things that Serena did after that,

[00:42:25] they just deemed her unfit and then decided or maybe they thought that would be

[00:42:29] a possibility from the beginning, but that wasn't their sole intention.

[00:42:32] No, no. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:42:33] I don't think they thought it was a real possibility.

[00:42:35] I mean, the idea of having Serena Joy in their house giving birth is like

[00:42:39] almost as I mean, that would be wonderful.

[00:42:41] Serena Joy was a goddess to this woman and she just fell very quickly,

[00:42:46] you know, immediately by saying the eight things she said.

[00:42:49] That was that was it by not being interested in marrying this, you know,

[00:42:54] kind man and all of those things.

[00:42:56] So I think the she

[00:42:59] queered her relationship with Mrs. Wheeler.

[00:43:02] And the other thing that I kept thinking back to was how quickly June

[00:43:07] queered her relationship with Serena.

[00:43:09] If you remember at the very beginning, she came in all she said to Fred said,

[00:43:15] nice to meet you and she says you too.

[00:43:17] And that's it. He's my husband's.

[00:43:19] Keep your hands off of that.

[00:43:20] The entire thing.

[00:43:21] So that's what I was trying to show is how quickly the cheese slides off the cracker

[00:43:25] and this kind of. Yeah, incredible.

[00:43:29] I was just wondering as we're approaching the end of the series,

[00:43:33] if you could produce any kind of show next, what would be what kind of project

[00:43:37] would you be most interested in doing next?

[00:43:41] Honestly, I would do something like this.

[00:43:42] I mean, I'm working on the test events next.

[00:43:44] This is, you know,

[00:43:48] this is the best work I've ever done.

[00:43:50] And it's basically exactly what I want in my head comes out on television.

[00:43:55] It just better.

[00:43:56] You know, it's amazing.

[00:43:58] And so because all the people add to it, every single person on the cast

[00:44:03] and crew, it's this, I mean, Lauren knows how much she adds to it.

[00:44:07] It's everybody puts, you know, they understand the story.

[00:44:11] They understand what we're trying to do.

[00:44:12] They understand it's in June's point of view.

[00:44:15] So all everything from all the advertising to the to the guy who's painting

[00:44:19] the sets knows where we are.

[00:44:22] And I tell this story, but I heard of the guy from the set called me

[00:44:27] and the guy who's painting the set and said, you know, this red has had me.

[00:44:31] I mean, I don't think they'd use that this red came from the wall of the

[00:44:35] Waterford house and I was like, what?

[00:44:37] He said, yeah, they wouldn't use that.

[00:44:39] They'd use something organic.

[00:44:40] Should I use?

[00:44:41] You know, so I'll paint it so it doesn't cover as well.

[00:44:43] So it doesn't.

[00:44:43] So it looks organic.

[00:44:44] I was like, oh my God, I love, I love this guy.

[00:44:47] It's like you want everybody to be just absolutely in the same

[00:44:51] same as I always do.

[00:44:52] So I would certainly do something.

[00:44:53] I think I've always liked writing women characters.

[00:44:56] I said I had three sisters.

[00:44:57] I don't really understand men at all.

[00:45:01] And I've had such a very nice time working with Margaret.

[00:45:06] And that's really, I mean, I like saying, oh, Margaret Margaret.

[00:45:10] But and also it's a it's a chance to continue to work with Elizabeth

[00:45:15] Moss and Warren.

[00:45:17] And so I feel like I've been doing this a very long time and I know a good thing

[00:45:22] when I see it and also I really I know it's heavy stuff, but I like doing this.

[00:45:28] This is fun for me.

[00:45:30] And you know, don't tell I'm stealing their money.

[00:45:33] Don't don't tell.

[00:45:34] So so I'm very happy to be doing television at this level in a day

[00:45:40] and age when there's so much great TV and you're to stand out amongst that.

[00:45:45] It's just it's wonderful.

[00:45:46] And you know, and there's also, you know, I think we've gotten the best

[00:45:50] performances of people's career out of a lot of people, which is such a wonderful

[00:45:54] thing. So I would, you know, I don't know if I can top this, but I'll, you know,

[00:45:58] I would move off in that direction.

[00:45:59] I want to do something pretty like our show, pretty pictures.

[00:46:04] Yeah, man, you really found your thing.

[00:46:07] Yeah, you certainly have a knack for it.

[00:46:10] Well, I feel like that is just about a good place to wrap.

[00:46:15] But we should maybe say something about the testaments.

[00:46:19] I mean, we're all we're all feeling like, oh, it's so great that you have another show

[00:46:24] to go on to when you and I've read the testaments.

[00:46:26] But then we're like, how can you wrap up

[00:46:29] Handmaid's Tale in a satisfying way when you've got this other thing to go on to?

[00:46:34] I don't know. I mean, I'm sure you will.

[00:46:36] We love the show.

[00:46:37] We have all the faith, but that's kind of what's on our minds.

[00:46:40] Oh, you have. Oh, no, you don't.

[00:46:41] Yes, we do say that a lot.

[00:46:43] But no, no, no, we do.

[00:46:45] When you spend a whole show,

[00:46:48] you always show that shows you don't trust me.

[00:46:50] So I'm very happy.

[00:46:51] I don't trust me.

[00:46:52] Look, I'm going to try very hard not to mess it up.

[00:46:56] But I think that what you said is exactly the answer.

[00:47:01] You have to end Handmaid's Tale.

[00:47:03] So I think the most the most important

[00:47:05] what I'm thinking about now is I just want a good season six.

[00:47:07] I don't care if it's a good ending of the series season six.

[00:47:10] I just want a good solid story that's satisfying and feels like, you know,

[00:47:15] if I could do a season that's as good as any of the others,

[00:47:19] that's I'm happy with that.

[00:47:21] So I mostly I don't want to mess it up.

[00:47:24] But I am

[00:47:28] at this point, I'm not thinking very much about the testaments in terms

[00:47:32] of Handmaid's Tale here, except trying not to shoot myself in the foot.

[00:47:37] But you know, when Margaret was writing the book, she would say,

[00:47:41] call me up and just out of nowhere go, don't kill Lydia.

[00:47:46] So that kind of stuff.

[00:47:48] Yeah, thank you, Margaret.

[00:47:49] And so yeah, it was like, yes, OK.

[00:47:52] And so

[00:47:55] I am thinking about it generally.

[00:47:57] I'm also working on the testaments and coming up with this.

[00:48:00] But I'm trying not to say, oh, I need to set.

[00:48:02] I don't want it to be like part two.

[00:48:04] I want it to be its own thing.

[00:48:06] And so and certainly

[00:48:10] I'm hoping that people realize that the testaments is a sequel to the Handmaid's Tale of the book.

[00:48:15] So the testaments television show is going to have to be a sequel to the Handmaid's Tale

[00:48:19] television show because because there's too many things that just don't.

[00:48:23] You know, too many things that don't quite line up.

[00:48:26] And if they don't quite line up, whole things boil.

[00:48:29] I mean, it's too it's too narrow.

[00:48:31] We can feel you moving things more in that direction.

[00:48:34] We can kind of.

[00:48:36] Yeah.

[00:48:37] Yeah, it is.

[00:48:38] It's slow and slow and steady.

[00:48:40] But all a lot of that stuff was, you know, I that's what I was thinking of doing.

[00:48:44] And Mark and I talk about it.

[00:48:45] And you know, it's we were on the same page in terms of we talked about

[00:48:48] that stuff in season one.

[00:48:50] She was thinking about the testaments long time ago.

[00:48:52] So thank you, Bruce.

[00:48:54] We love the show so much for coming.

[00:48:57] Spending some time with us.

[00:48:59] It was my pleasure to thank you guys so much for doing the show.

[00:49:03] And and it's very interesting to me.

[00:49:06] And I like the fact that there's a boy on it.

[00:49:09] You know, yeah, right?

[00:49:11] You know, generally, I'm the only boy in the conversation about my show.

[00:49:14] I was scared to do the podcast, so I can't imagine how you must have felt

[00:49:18] just doing the whole damn show.

[00:49:20] Well, for a long time, I, you know, every single question you get asked

[00:49:24] is some version of who do you think you are?

[00:49:26] Really polite version, you know, like wonderful.

[00:49:30] But you know, who do you think you are?

[00:49:32] And and honestly, that's the way I felt when I got the job.

[00:49:35] I mean, they were only interviewing the show runners.

[00:49:38] But I wanted the job.

[00:49:38] But I wanted them to hire a woman show runner.

[00:49:40] I certainly didn't want them to hire some white guy, but except me because I want.

[00:49:44] I mean, what do you do?

[00:49:44] You know, so I was like, oh, my God, I read an

[00:49:48] apology was one of the most important books of my life.

[00:49:50] I mean, I.

[00:49:51] June was one of my favorite characters that I related to.

[00:49:54] We can have anything to do with the fact that she was a handmaid or a woman.

[00:49:56] Nothing. And so and so, you know, I'm part of the, you know, I very much

[00:50:05] know that I'm treading in delicate territory all the time.

[00:50:08] And I have to listen to other people.

[00:50:11] And it helps because I think when you're not a woman,

[00:50:14] you understand there's a deficit there and you have to listen to people.

[00:50:16] I think when you're not a lawyer, you can change your lawyer.

[00:50:19] You know, a lot of writers just pretend they can write police stuff

[00:50:22] and medical stuff and all that kind of stuff.

[00:50:24] But I'm not going to pretend I can write that.

[00:50:27] And so because of that, it makes me dumb enough to feel or, you know,

[00:50:32] have an absolute vacuum of intelligence in some areas that I have to ask from

[00:50:38] the very basics and luckily I have a group of writers who are

[00:50:42] very good at explaining patient and explaining and know they're not being

[00:50:46] interrogated for period reasons.

[00:50:48] But also it's hard.

[00:50:50] It's one thing to explain how to, you know, how your sexual desire

[00:50:53] feels with your husband, but it's another thing to have a whole group of people

[00:50:56] then go, OK, but when you were on your honeymoon, like asking you specific questions

[00:51:01] because people are so used to, you know, they let their thing out and then

[00:51:04] everybody's like, thank you.

[00:51:05] You know, and this isn't that rule.

[00:51:07] So you have to be comfortable being interrogated on the very exposed.

[00:51:11] Like, oh, I told my story about my thing and they're like, OK,

[00:51:14] so were you hungry afterwards?

[00:51:16] I let June to be hungry after she kills the guy.

[00:51:18] Were you hungry?

[00:51:19] What did you want to eat?

[00:51:20] Did you want to eat like breakfast stuff or what?

[00:51:22] I mean, it's hilarious.

[00:51:24] So it's a it's a wonderful group of writers.

[00:51:26] But what it requires is a lot of people who are both willing to be honest with you

[00:51:31] and then be honest again and not defensive, even though you are being so fucking nosy.

[00:51:36] It's fun. It sounds like a blast, to be honest.

[00:51:39] It is. It's it's it's a very good.

[00:51:42] It's a very good group of people.

[00:51:44] So thank you guys so much and you should bring some of the actors on.

[00:51:47] They're all much smarter than I am.

[00:51:49] We love to.

[00:51:51] All right.

[00:51:52] Throw the light. Thank you.

[00:51:53] Thank you.

[00:52:08] And we're back with some listener feedback.

[00:52:12] Thank you guys for, you know, sticking with us and sending in your thoughts on this episode.

[00:52:18] All of the feedback we received first is for episode 10 safe.

[00:52:23] Monica McGuire said, didn't see the end coming.

[00:52:27] Wow. Serena on the train too.

[00:52:30] And Luke really lost his shit completely to actually kill the guy that ran June over.

[00:52:36] And Janine got that June look going on too.

[00:52:40] Worried about her now.

[00:52:42] Where are they taking her?

[00:52:43] The wall?

[00:52:45] Question mark.

[00:52:46] Yeah, I think Monica was picking up on the same thing I was saying that

[00:52:50] I was thinking Janine was going to kill Naomi.

[00:52:55] She just had she was being so polite, but there was this under

[00:52:59] undercurrent of my monocular.

[00:53:03] I think that Martha one, I think Janine was just going through this.

[00:53:07] She was in a fog and that Martha said June and it was like boom.

[00:53:12] Mm hmm.

[00:53:13] So I remembered where she was and what was happening and yeah, I laugh.

[00:53:18] It's horrible. Yeah.

[00:53:20] All right.

[00:53:21] Jason, want to take the next one?

[00:53:23] OK, Karen Stoll Madero says I didn't see the twist coming at all.

[00:53:26] I think that's why I really enjoyed it.

[00:53:29] Me neither. You guys are better at spotting like I didn't even realize

[00:53:33] it was Serena until I saw the blonde hair.

[00:53:35] The baby cry didn't I should have known, but

[00:53:40] at first I thought Janine might be on the train.

[00:53:44] That was when she was first walking.

[00:53:46] But as soon as I heard that baby cry, I was like, oh, no, I know where this is going.

[00:53:50] You know, Tuella, like I think you said it.

[00:53:53] Tuella put his best two girls on the train.

[00:53:56] And because this season really was about the two of them and their polarity

[00:54:02] and everything, and there's shifting dynamics between them,

[00:54:05] I think it was the perfect ending.

[00:54:07] Yeah, they got rid of the man.

[00:54:09] That's not what I meant.

[00:54:14] Erica Ferdur says I don't know if I screamed what the fuck

[00:54:18] more during any Handmaid's Tale episode than this one.

[00:54:22] What an incredible whirlwind of heartbreak and chaos.

[00:54:26] I actually forgot about Serena this episode and that twist at the end.

[00:54:31] Woo, couple things.

[00:54:33] One, why didn't Mara or Rita leave as well?

[00:54:37] Especially when June is so dead set that Canada is changing.

[00:54:42] We kind of talked about that, but we thought it was at least one reason

[00:54:46] was just for the story to have Serena.

[00:54:50] But is there a better reason than that?

[00:54:53] Why they would stay even in the midst of all that danger?

[00:54:56] Well, I think June and Luke were definitely undergone more than those two were.

[00:55:02] And maybe there was, you know, maybe there were only so many spaces on the train

[00:55:06] and he could only get those two out.

[00:55:09] There you go. It was pretty packed.

[00:55:11] Mm hmm.

[00:55:13] Why didn't Mark offer June Luke the same protection of sending them to Hawaii

[00:55:18] like he offered Serena last season?

[00:55:20] But I think that's where they're going.

[00:55:22] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:24] Unless she means something else.

[00:55:26] I don't think June wanted to leave.

[00:55:28] She's been so devoted to Hannah that not

[00:55:31] sure she would have left had this latest thing not happened.

[00:55:35] I think she sees where it's going.

[00:55:37] Yeah. Where are the wheelers?

[00:55:40] Not that I miss them gag.

[00:55:43] They're at home going, God damn it.

[00:55:45] I wonder if we'll see them again.

[00:55:47] Do you think we'll see them again?

[00:55:49] I hope so. Yeah.

[00:55:50] You too.

[00:55:52] As much as I can't stand them,

[00:55:54] they're polarizing, so we need them back.

[00:55:58] Rose supposedly loves Gilead.

[00:56:00] Why does she not talk like a typical wife?

[00:56:03] Her conversation with Nick did not feel authentic.

[00:56:06] Yep. I agree with that 100 percent.

[00:56:09] She seems more like a down to earth real person.

[00:56:13] Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:56:15] And the way she talked with Nick before that she kind of knows that he's not

[00:56:20] fully on board with Gilead either, so we wondered if they were sort of a team

[00:56:24] working against Gilead.

[00:56:25] But now we've learned that she wants to stay in Gilead.

[00:56:28] So yeah, it's weird.

[00:56:29] I feel like those are that she's not like all the other Gilead women for sure.

[00:56:34] So it seems like.

[00:56:36] I agree.

[00:56:37] Again, hitting close to home with the angry white guy with a gun.

[00:56:41] Super scary.

[00:56:42] In fact, that whole scene was very unnerving when they circled the next neighborhood.

[00:56:47] No sound, no music.

[00:56:49] I felt uneasy instantly.

[00:56:51] Love to hard knock life and love Janine sticking it to Naomi.

[00:56:56] Janine is done.

[00:56:57] Mm hmm.

[00:56:59] She also says, I don't think I can ever listen to Kokomo ever again.

[00:57:04] Aunt Lydia, I smell the testaments.

[00:57:07] Also kudos to you all on the amazing job.

[00:57:11] Thanks for following us.

[00:57:12] Erica, thanks, Erica.

[00:57:14] Awesome.

[00:57:14] Erica, she I don't know if you guys knew, but she guested with the son,

[00:57:17] Cobra Kai, for one episode this season and she was awesome.

[00:57:20] I'm not caught up with Cobra Kai.

[00:57:22] She was really good on there.

[00:57:24] I'm with her.

[00:57:25] I don't think I can ever listen to Kokomo.

[00:57:27] I know it's ruined like that because I love that song.

[00:57:32] I don't want it to be ruined.

[00:57:34] I'm just going to see that guy's head slamming onto the ground.

[00:57:38] I know.

[00:57:39] I don't think songs do that to me.

[00:57:41] OK, I'm going to try.

[00:57:44] Tracy Walker says, why was June walking in the street?

[00:57:53] Good question.

[00:57:54] Good question.

[00:57:55] I thought she had enough time to get out of the way too.

[00:57:58] Like it just seemed, I don't know.

[00:58:01] Well, I think she felt safe.

[00:58:04] Yeah.

[00:58:05] At least safe enough to do that.

[00:58:07] And she wasn't.

[00:58:10] So she goes on to say, it's a hard knock life.

[00:58:13] Really put me in the reality that this is our world.

[00:58:16] You never see anyone watching TV or anything.

[00:58:19] So it feels like an alternative universe or something.

[00:58:23] But that put me right into the story.

[00:58:25] Good for Luke, but also shit.

[00:58:28] Jeanine, my money is on her somehow kicking ass and taking someone out.

[00:58:33] Lawrence, maybe she's done being a doormat.

[00:58:37] And Serena, damn, damn those two have chemistry.

[00:58:42] Tell me why I was yelling kiss.

[00:58:47] That's so funny.

[00:58:48] So was I. No, I wasn't.

[00:58:50] Yeah, that's a good point about Jeanine.

[00:58:54] She just seemed so well done over it with Naomi.

[00:59:01] I don't give a shit anymore.

[00:59:02] I'm going to tell you exactly what I think.

[00:59:03] And then in the back of the van,

[00:59:05] she was more calm and trying to reassure the other one.

[00:59:08] So she seems like she's ready to kick some ass.

[00:59:12] Yeah, I think so.

[00:59:13] And Eileen Weiner responded to Tracy's comment just saying, at least hug.

[00:59:21] The thing is, I don't think the two of them even have to touch to make their

[00:59:25] feelings convey like all they have to do is those, you know, they're just such

[00:59:30] great face actresses.

[00:59:31] I know.

[00:59:32] And that raised eyebrow just says so much.

[00:59:35] I mean, yeah, and I think if June's going to work with Serena,

[00:59:40] it's always going to be reluctantly.

[00:59:42] There's there's not going to be a hug.

[00:59:44] No, I don't think they're not friends.

[00:59:47] As June said, we're not friends.

[00:59:51] Kelly Burgess says, I don't know if it's because I thought episode six and

[00:59:55] seven were so good or what, but I didn't think this one was that great.

[00:59:58] I found it to be one of the more predictable ones this season.

[01:00:02] And some of the characters felt really off, mainly Lawrence and Nick.

[01:00:05] Lawrence just feels like a different person suddenly in these last few episodes.

[01:00:09] And Nick wasn't very smart.

[01:00:11] I don't know.

[01:00:12] I just felt like this episode wasn't up to par with most of the season and was

[01:00:15] especially disappointing for a finale.

[01:00:18] I was intrigued by the ending, even though as soon as June made it on the

[01:00:21] train without Luke, I said she's going to find Serena.

[01:00:24] But you know, I'm excited to see what those two do together next season.

[01:00:28] I've loved listening to the podcast this season, even when I disagreed with what was

[01:00:31] being said, thanks for letting me be a part of it.

[01:00:34] Thank you, Kelly.

[01:00:35] Thanks, Kelly.

[01:00:36] Thanks for coming on with us.

[01:00:38] Kelly's on a different wavelength.

[01:00:40] She is.

[01:00:41] But she sounds some of those things sound like what you were saying, Wendy,

[01:00:44] about Lawrence and Nick feeling off and Nick being not smart.

[01:00:47] I'm totally on board with Lawrence and Nick just didn't make sense to me this episode.

[01:00:53] I guess what I meant was that it was predictable that Serena was on the train

[01:00:57] because I totally didn't get that.

[01:00:59] But like kudos to her, that's great.

[01:01:02] Kelly, I'm so glad you're still writing into even though there's some things we

[01:01:06] haven't agreed on because we don't need everyone to agree.

[01:01:10] Yeah, it's a better conversation when people have different opinions.

[01:01:14] Even on this podcast, we've had different opinions from each other and

[01:01:19] it just makes for a great conversation.

[01:01:21] Mm hmm.

[01:01:23] Megan Dolores Rickleman, she says,

[01:01:26] this was a banger finale as only handmaids can deliver.

[01:01:30] Luke, I'm so glad he messed that dude up.

[01:01:33] I've been waiting all series for Luke to show that kind of action and fervor

[01:01:38] and he finally delivered.

[01:01:40] I agree.

[01:01:41] Mm hmm.

[01:01:42] Nick, I thought his line, she doesn't need me.

[01:01:46] I'm nothing explained everything about his character.

[01:01:49] He's got demons for sure.

[01:01:51] Hopefully next season we'll get at least a little bit of backstory.

[01:01:54] As I mentioned last week, I've loved Nick from the beginning,

[01:01:58] but was and still am thrown off by his new Bethlehem motivations this season.

[01:02:04] We forgot to ask Bruce about Nick's backstory.

[01:02:07] Yes.

[01:02:08] I was going to.

[01:02:09] We just ran out of time.

[01:02:11] Yeah.

[01:02:11] Oh, you asked about Mark and he said maybe we could get some of that.

[01:02:18] I feel like maybe we need to tweet out to Bruce.

[01:02:21] Yeah, he did say that.

[01:02:22] He said, you think we'll get it?

[01:02:24] He said we might want two whole episodes.

[01:02:27] You didn't hear that?

[01:02:28] But Mark's backstory.

[01:02:29] No, Wendy was a spin-off.

[01:02:31] Oh, Mark.

[01:02:33] Oh, Mark.

[01:02:33] She wants to spin off.

[01:02:35] She says, I feel like that was the biggest misstep of the season,

[01:02:39] but this episode redeemed Nick for me.

[01:02:42] Jeanine, my June so cute.

[01:02:45] I think she's being delivered to May Day 2.

[01:02:47] Yes, I can't remember which one of you said that on the pod.

[01:02:50] That was me.

[01:02:51] Mm hmm.

[01:02:53] Serena, as soon as Mark said he can get June on the train,

[01:02:56] I had a feeling they'd run into Serena there.

[01:02:59] I'm really glad it's just the two of them with their babies as they set off into

[01:03:03] the next chapter and can't wait to see what they do next.

[01:03:06] Such chemistry.

[01:03:08] Finally, this has been my favorite show on television since it aired.

[01:03:13] And you guys have only heightened my enjoyment of the show since I found you,

[01:03:17] I think in season three.

[01:03:18] I'm curious about how you all would rank the seasons of

[01:03:22] handmaids from your favorite to least.

[01:03:25] Also, if you have a number one favorite episode.

[01:03:28] Personally, I rank them three, two, one, five, then four.

[01:03:34] But my favorite episode is the season three finale May Day.

[01:03:39] That's hard.

[01:03:40] Yeah, they're starting to blow together for me too.

[01:03:43] Yeah, I think season four was my favorite.

[01:03:48] Even though season one is one, two and three, two are especially hard to watch.

[01:03:56] I feel like season one is just the tightest and the most powerful.

[01:04:02] Two, I think it was is the hardest to watch.

[01:04:06] But in some ways, I liked it the most because it blew up the world so much.

[01:04:11] You know? Yeah.

[01:04:12] Like it really expanded

[01:04:15] the world that we see.

[01:04:18] And I liked four for the fact that it gave us

[01:04:23] more of the world even beyond what we saw.

[01:04:26] It gave us a different look at June.

[01:04:29] Yeah, because three, I think three might be my least favorite, even though I love

[01:04:33] them all, but I felt like, man, this show needs to start doing something

[01:04:37] different and then in four it did.

[01:04:39] And I was very thankful for that.

[01:04:41] We got a lot of justice in four.

[01:04:43] Yeah.

[01:04:44] And a lot of terrible stuff, too.

[01:04:47] We paid for the justice, but we got it.

[01:04:50] Yeah, yeah.

[01:04:51] Agreed.

[01:04:52] But that's hard and favorite episode?

[01:04:56] I can't remember.

[01:04:57] I mean, I'm going to say it's season four finale.

[01:05:01] That yeah, I could totally.

[01:05:04] I mean, for me, No Man's Land was one of my top

[01:05:09] whole series this season, Serena and Judy Barn.

[01:05:13] That would definitely be in my top five.

[01:05:16] Yeah.

[01:05:18] Which is great.

[01:05:19] It's so good when a series can be

[01:05:21] putting top five episodes laid into its run, you know?

[01:05:26] Yeah.

[01:05:27] I'll have to think on it some more.

[01:05:29] Maybe it's a thing we can revisit once we've had some downtime.

[01:05:33] We can think about it.

[01:05:34] I've never watched an episode of this show and thought, well, that was kind

[01:05:38] of filler.

[01:05:38] Never.

[01:05:39] Never. Yeah.

[01:05:40] I feel like everything has a purpose.

[01:05:43] And it's dense.

[01:05:44] Yeah, there's a lot to pay attention to.

[01:05:48] Because especially for a slow pace as it is sometimes, it's still dense.

[01:05:52] Yeah, because there's stuff that's going to pay off later.

[01:05:57] So Eileen Weiner says that this was a great finale.

[01:06:00] I knew it would be a bit of cliffhanger, but I wanted it to be

[01:06:04] satisfying as well and was it ever?

[01:06:07] I did keep on saying, where is Serena?

[01:06:10] And I didn't catch on until the very, very end.

[01:06:13] Well done.

[01:06:14] And I know a few episodes ago I said I wouldn't forgive Serena.

[01:06:18] But I think if I were in June shoes, be happy to see her.

[01:06:23] Can't wait for next season.

[01:06:26] It's great.

[01:06:27] It's fun.

[01:06:28] I mean, I always like I fight for two things when characters have annoying

[01:06:36] personalities and people just want to say everything they do is bad.

[01:06:42] I try to look at what they're actually doing and see if, even though they're not

[01:06:46] charming, that they're actually doing something good.

[01:06:49] And then on the flip side of that coin, if someone is charming.

[01:06:55] Then or.

[01:06:58] I don't know, in Serena's case, she's being vulnerable and everything.

[01:07:01] I try not to forget everything that she's done and also that what we've

[01:07:05] been saying about her is we need to see her in a position of power again to see

[01:07:09] if she's really changed or not.

[01:07:11] That's kind of the key with her for me.

[01:07:13] Like I am so much more open to her as a person now than ever before in the series.

[01:07:20] But I can't trust her until I see what she would do with power.

[01:07:25] Do you think they'll make it to Hawaii?

[01:07:29] I don't think so.

[01:07:30] Yeah, I don't think so either.

[01:07:32] They never make it where they're going.

[01:07:33] No.

[01:07:34] Right. I think that might be the next season is what happens to them.

[01:07:40] And yeah, who knows?

[01:07:42] It would be interesting to see why he's like,

[01:07:45] I think it's my turn.

[01:07:46] Ben Stone says, is just me, do Commander

[01:07:49] McKenzie and Ted Cruz look the same?

[01:07:51] Oh, my goodness.

[01:07:54] I never thought of that, but honestly.

[01:07:57] They give off a similar vibe.

[01:07:59] This episode finale

[01:08:02] premiered the day after our midterm elections.

[01:08:06] So I think that impacted some people's thoughts.

[01:08:09] Yeah, right.

[01:08:11] Right. It was on their mind.

[01:08:13] Kristen Crabtree says, handmaid's

[01:08:16] tale season six, two women, two babies on a journey of friendship, forgiveness

[01:08:21] and diapers.

[01:08:22] Will they fight together or fight each other?

[01:08:25] Oh, my.

[01:08:25] Probably a little of both.

[01:08:27] Sounds like a hallmark movie.

[01:08:28] Yes, it does.

[01:08:30] But it also sounds like it could be

[01:08:32] oh, that could be reworded and it be like some sort of post apocalyptic horror movie.

[01:08:39] Catcraft says the music in this episode stood out to me from Kokomo to the

[01:08:45] bossa nova during the party setup scene.

[01:08:47] And of course, Barry a friend for the last scene,

[01:08:51] the soaring violin score in other scenes seem more prominent and moving than I

[01:08:55] remember in other episodes.

[01:08:57] Elizabeth Moss did a stellar job directing the episode Bravo.

[01:09:03] Every one of the women this season are giving Emmy worthy performances.

[01:09:08] I love Janine's turn after hearing the news about June,

[01:09:11] the look on her face of satisfaction and triumph over her taking her power back

[01:09:17] despite the coming consequences was amazing.

[01:09:20] For a second, I thought she was going to have a hand up

[01:09:24] on Naomi and stay in the Lawrence household.

[01:09:27] Wishful thinking.

[01:09:28] I was sad to see Aunt Lydia's disillusioned after finding out that Janine stood up

[01:09:33] for herself with the final little expression on her face.

[01:09:36] Do you think she's going back to the cast iron bitch, Lydia?

[01:09:41] These actors can convey so much with these subtle expressions.

[01:09:45] I think I even saw a fleeting expression across stone face Nick.

[01:09:50] I don't know, Jason.

[01:09:51] Did you see that?

[01:09:52] Not sure I saw.

[01:09:54] I didn't know I didn't see it.

[01:09:58] I mean, as far as Lydia goes,

[01:10:00] she's not going to be cast iron bitch to her

[01:10:03] handmaids but maybe to others.

[01:10:07] I think she's realized with this loss that

[01:10:11] her handmaids, though they're so precious to her, they can be taken away so quickly.

[01:10:16] Yeah.

[01:10:17] She needs to work with them to not only

[01:10:20] think of service but also survival in this.

[01:10:25] You know, why it's so important to be so obedient to survive.

[01:10:30] And then if something does go wrong, how do you counteract that in those situations?

[01:10:35] But I don't know that she can.

[01:10:37] She's been trying to do that.

[01:10:38] But the problem is survival means lay back and take it.

[01:10:42] Yeah.

[01:10:42] And I don't think that's hopefully that's not going to be good enough for Lydia

[01:10:48] anymore.

[01:10:49] I hope not.

[01:10:50] Because if she's becoming disillusioned with all the ideals of Gilead little by little,

[01:10:56] then eventually maybe she'll be like, OK, this whole ceremony is actually bullshit too.

[01:11:01] And then if she hasn't thought that yet,

[01:11:04] she still thinks it's sacred when done properly.

[01:11:07] But if she ever gets to that point, then

[01:11:10] things are going to change big time and how she handles everything.

[01:11:15] Yeah.

[01:11:16] Thanks, Kat.

[01:11:17] Thanks, Kat.

[01:11:18] Gina Mercatilli says checking election results in real time.

[01:11:23] Better invest in some red capes under his eye.

[01:11:28] Oh, God.

[01:11:29] That was that was a little premature, maybe.

[01:11:34] OK, so why don't we get back?

[01:11:36] OK, Alicia Stout.

[01:11:38] It's Alicia Stout.

[01:11:39] We love her.

[01:11:40] She says, holy hell, what a ride.

[01:11:42] I don't know if there's another show on TV that has me going so many

[01:11:46] different directions emotionally.

[01:11:48] That finale was so beautifully done from the overhead shots, the panoramic turns,

[01:11:53] the visuals and the acting just wow.

[01:11:55] I know, I agree for a moment there.

[01:11:58] And it could still happen.

[01:11:59] I thought my request from last week having a June, Luke, Nick,

[01:12:03] Nicole reunion would happen and just like that, it changed.

[01:12:07] Well,

[01:12:08] Lawrence is starting to turn as he gains more power.

[01:12:11] And now he's just starting to piss me off.

[01:12:13] And it's hard to be angry because I love Bradley Whitford so dang much.

[01:12:18] Oh, Nick, Nick, Nick, let's hope you didn't piss Rose off so much that she starts

[01:12:23] opening her mouth to other people about your relationship with June or any

[01:12:26] other information she may know.

[01:12:27] That's a good point.

[01:12:28] That kind of worries me.

[01:12:30] Janine, sweet Janine.

[01:12:31] I just love how she stuck it to Naomi.

[01:12:34] Every word of that was so true, but I hope she doesn't hang for it.

[01:12:38] Was the Martha in the truck with her?

[01:12:41] The same one that gave Janine the information about June?

[01:12:45] Do you guys know?

[01:12:46] I don't. Yeah, I think it was actually.

[01:12:49] You do? Yeah, I do.

[01:12:50] And I got to go back.

[01:12:51] Yeah, I don't know.

[01:12:53] This show is making me feel really sorry for Aunt Lydia.

[01:12:56] Damn it.

[01:12:57] Oh, my God.

[01:12:58] Seers stand up for what's right and dump Gilead's ideals.

[01:13:01] That would be such an exciting turn.

[01:13:03] Totally.

[01:13:04] Love that scene with Serena and June on the train.

[01:13:06] I was not expecting that and I'm pretty sure Nicole's diapers won't fit.

[01:13:10] No, I'll joke.

[01:13:12] I was thinking that too.

[01:13:14] You got to love how the show left us with so many cliffhangers.

[01:13:17] Dang, how long until next season?

[01:13:20] We don't know.

[01:13:21] Wasn't the last one was a year.

[01:13:24] So hopefully it'll be a year.

[01:13:25] Yeah, it was a year and a half, Jason.

[01:13:28] A little over a year and a half.

[01:13:29] Yeah, or a little less than a year and a half.

[01:13:32] Not two years.

[01:13:33] She says, thanks again, Wendy, Daphne and Jason for a great

[01:13:36] podcast this season.

[01:13:37] You guys are amazing.

[01:13:38] Thank you, Alicia.

[01:13:39] Alicia.

[01:13:42] Alma Contreras.

[01:13:43] Hi, Alma says, oh my God, what a good episode.

[01:13:47] When June was walking to Wella out, I noticed the moving truck in the background.

[01:13:52] I thought, hmm, nothing on this show seldom has no meaning.

[01:13:56] Then June noticed everyone seemed to be moving out.

[01:14:00] That's when I knew something bad was about to happen.

[01:14:03] While I'm glad Luke beat that guy up,

[01:14:05] I'm so upset they are separated once again.

[01:14:08] Meanwhile, in Gilead, dumbass Jeanine had to open her mouth and be rude to Naomi.

[01:14:13] Well, I guess we'll be seeing her in the colonies next season.

[01:14:17] I don't think so.

[01:14:18] No, not if Wendy has her way.

[01:14:21] Yeah, and dumb Nick has been so careful thus far only to put himself in jeopardy now.

[01:14:27] Why didn't he wait to confront Lawrence in private?

[01:14:30] Uggs so frustrating.

[01:14:31] I agree.

[01:14:32] I agree.

[01:14:34] I was totally wondering about Serena and then boom, June runs into her on the train.

[01:14:39] LOL. All in all, this season was very good and intense.

[01:14:43] I can't wait to see how this upcoming final season wraps up this tragic story.

[01:14:49] Yep.

[01:14:50] Oh, neither can I.

[01:14:53] So we have a couple of calls for season five episode 10.

[01:14:59] Here's Shannon.

[01:15:01] Just finished listening to your

[01:15:04] handmaid's tale finale recap, great recap.

[01:15:09] I think with the next thing I don't think

[01:15:13] I think it actually made so much sense about his character.

[01:15:17] Like Nick in Gilead is always wearing a mask.

[01:15:21] Like he's always

[01:15:24] keeping his head down, trying to stay out of trouble, like managing his emotions.

[01:15:28] And I think in this episode, when June got hit by the truck and she basically almost died,

[01:15:36] it

[01:15:38] really

[01:15:41] made his mask shift and like all of his resolve to like, you know,

[01:15:47] commit to the part that he has to play kind of like fell to the wayside and he

[01:15:52] like fell into like his actual emotions.

[01:15:56] I know people always say that Nick is super emotional,

[01:15:59] emotionless and hard to read.

[01:16:01] But I think that is on purpose because he's always like has that mask on.

[01:16:07] And with the event of the episode, his mask like slipped and he

[01:16:13] just gave in to his emotions and

[01:16:17] like he just didn't think like he's Nick is always thinking, always

[01:16:21] planning, always one step ahead.

[01:16:24] But he just like,

[01:16:27] I think he was really that devastated and it kind of makes sense now with like all

[01:16:34] the other interactions that he had with with June and how he kind of seemed to be

[01:16:40] really guarded and keeping that arm sling like I think he was trying to

[01:16:45] play his part. He kind of said, OK, June is happy with Luke and Nicole and

[01:16:50] Nicole is safe and she needs to like live her life.

[01:16:54] And so he's like, I'm going to try to live my life and make the best out of

[01:17:01] my current situation.

[01:17:03] And I think that is what he means when he says I tried like he's like, OK,

[01:17:06] I tried and working with Lauren's new Bethlehem.

[01:17:10] Like I'm not a true believer, but let's this is the best options that we have

[01:17:14] right now, let me play the part of the good Gilead husband,

[01:17:18] not with any specific ulterior motives.

[01:17:21] Like he's just like, what is the best reason?

[01:17:23] And I think a big part of it too is that Nick

[01:17:27] does not think he's with saving.

[01:17:30] He does not think he's worth anything like he doesn't want to be a hindrance

[01:17:35] to June. She like wants her to live her life.

[01:17:39] And he thinks too that him living his life and playing his part kind of

[01:17:43] frees her up to like move on and

[01:17:48] find her happiness with Luke, etc.

[01:17:52] So for me, it just made sense that way of the next thing.

[01:17:56] Even like it's confusing, but not confusing.

[01:18:00] Like I think we're finally seeing like Nick releases emotions

[01:18:04] that he's just been stifling down for like how many seasons?

[01:18:08] Like we barely get to see him react.

[01:18:12] Yeah, I buy all that.

[01:18:13] I mean, the part I buy the least is that he's like usually one step ahead of everyone.

[01:18:18] But other than that,

[01:18:22] that he's certainly he's always trying not to give away anything about what he's

[01:18:27] really thinking, but I can imagine if this guy who you've come to think of as

[01:18:35] maybe a friend or at least an ally suddenly you think he tried to kill

[01:18:40] the love of your life, that could be the thing that makes you over that.

[01:18:44] Yeah, pushes you over the edge.

[01:18:46] I guess what's so confusing to me is

[01:18:49] why go back

[01:18:52] if you're just going to abandon your wife and child by being put in prison anyway?

[01:18:58] Like why? So if you're going to do that, then why not just stay in the US?

[01:19:04] That's what was very because it's not logical.

[01:19:07] It's emotional. Yeah.

[01:19:08] Why is anybody in jail?

[01:19:09] They're not like, oh, I think I'll

[01:19:13] know. Well, but he knew that he knew all he had all that time to process the fact

[01:19:19] that Lawrence had done that.

[01:19:20] Well, I mean, at least that's what he thought.

[01:19:22] That's what we all think.

[01:19:25] So he had all that time to process it and then went back to do that.

[01:19:29] Yeah, I guess I mean, if he had learned about it in the moment and then acted

[01:19:33] that way, it would make a little more sense.

[01:19:34] Yeah. So like the reason why he went back, you think is because of Rose

[01:19:41] and his child, but then he blew the hat.

[01:19:45] Yeah, I mean, it could have just been he was overcome with emotion when he saw

[01:19:49] Lawrence that he didn't plan on doing that.

[01:19:51] But sure.

[01:19:54] OK, next we have Archmester Renny.

[01:19:58] Wow, what a season.

[01:20:01] I want to tell you one specific thing that I am really worried about for next

[01:20:05] season, and that is Tuello becoming a Gileadian.

[01:20:11] All this season, he has been giving these kind of Gilead sounding religious

[01:20:16] greetings to people and he said to Nick on the bridge, go with grace.

[01:20:22] And I'm worried that he's becoming sympathetic somehow to Gilead.

[01:20:27] My only alternative explanation for this, which has been really quite

[01:20:33] prominent this season is that in this season, the show is trying to show us

[01:20:39] that it's possible to be religious, to be Christian in a way different from Gilead.

[01:20:44] Because Tuello also said and I don't remember now what it was,

[01:20:49] but Tuello and June when they parted just before June got run over by the truck,

[01:20:55] they said something to each other in parting that was kind of like

[01:21:02] Tuello saying go with grace to Nick.

[01:21:04] And June is clearly a believer, but not in Gilead's brand of religion.

[01:21:12] And maybe we're seeing that Tuello is the same and we're seeing that

[01:21:18] religion does not have to be the tool for abusive power that Gilead uses it for.

[01:21:26] Or maybe Tuello and Nick are coming closer together.

[01:21:33] But I'll tell you one thing,

[01:21:34] I'm watching next season with a trash can nearby so I can vomit into it if

[01:21:43] June chooses Nick over Luke.

[01:21:45] That would just be terrible.

[01:21:49] We can watch together and we can have the trash can in between us.

[01:21:51] I agree. Yeah, because I'm Team Luke.

[01:21:55] I really want to know, Rene, if you listen to the Bruce Miller

[01:21:59] interview, because he talks a lot about Mark on there.

[01:22:04] And if you think differently after you hear his comments,

[01:22:07] because it kind of made me think differently about it.

[01:22:10] What made you think different?

[01:22:13] I mean, to me, Bruce was just saying that Mark is the mastermind.

[01:22:18] Like all of this is his manipulation of Gilead and Serena and everybody, too.

[01:22:27] To keep the United States together.

[01:22:30] Like I think that's his motivation.

[01:22:33] Yeah, but I feel like I mean, I'm crazy, Bruce is the freaking showrunner,

[01:22:38] but I feel like he was underplaying how much Mark got caught up in what he was

[01:22:42] doing with Serena.

[01:22:43] I just feel like Mark has a savior complex with her.

[01:22:49] It's not just all manipulation.

[01:22:53] Yeah, and I went back to season two and watched their first like few

[01:22:59] episodes together and yeah, it definitely comes through there.

[01:23:03] Yeah.

[01:23:04] And I had forgotten how much that there was from the very beginning.

[01:23:09] Yeah, I love those scenes.

[01:23:11] But about Mark, I mean, go with grace.

[01:23:14] That's not even necessarily a religious thing.

[01:23:17] It's an eloquent thing to say to somebody.

[01:23:19] Grace doesn't have to be spiritual.

[01:23:23] If he had said under his eye or something, that would be a different story, you know,

[01:23:26] or bless me.

[01:23:28] I don't know if to me that didn't mean anything, except that Mark is a gentleman

[01:23:33] and has a way with words.

[01:23:36] Well, and I think Christianity went to a place in Gilead that was

[01:23:42] different than what Christianity, even the good kind of Christianity,

[01:23:46] went to a place in Gilead that was different than ours.

[01:23:51] I don't even mean the extremist part.

[01:23:52] I mean, I think it's different.

[01:23:54] Yeah.

[01:23:55] No, that's not what I'm saying.

[01:23:56] I'm saying

[01:23:58] even people like June and Mark who I think we can assume they are Christians

[01:24:05] based on some of their comments.

[01:24:08] Yeah, I think they went to a different place with Christianity before Gilead

[01:24:13] took over that was just different than our typical Christians.

[01:24:18] How so?

[01:24:20] In their language, in the lingo, you know, I mean, this is a different lingo or religion.

[01:24:27] Yeah.

[01:24:28] Yeah, this is a different world.

[01:24:32] Yeah, I mean, I just think it's kind of a romantic show, not romantic

[01:24:37] in the sense of love, but in the sense of style.

[01:24:41] You know, it's a little heightened and the language can be kind of poetic sometimes.

[01:24:48] And so I just think saying go with grace fits into that mood.

[01:24:52] I don't think it means that.

[01:24:54] And as I said, go with grace doesn't have to be about religion.

[01:24:59] None of those words indicate anything other than grace is just, you know,

[01:25:04] being I don't even know what grace is.

[01:25:07] It's just it's usually used as a religious word.

[01:25:11] Grace, I totally disagree.

[01:25:13] Let me look it up.

[01:25:15] It's a simple elegance or refinement of movement, courteous goodwill.

[01:25:20] That's the definition of grace from the dictionary.

[01:25:24] Doesn't say anything about anything spiritual.

[01:25:27] So I don't know.

[01:25:28] But maybe there's other things that he said recently that

[01:25:32] go more in that direction that I'm not thinking of.

[01:25:35] I don't know.

[01:25:37] Anyway, Rene also said Canada doesn't have the death penalty.

[01:25:40] So it's still possible that Luke might get killed next season.

[01:25:43] But if so, it won't be the Canadian government that kills him.

[01:25:46] And also she says, Dear Bruce, don't kill Luke.

[01:25:52] We got two more on this episode one from Kelly.

[01:25:57] Hi, this is Kelly from San Diego and I'm calling to leave a message for the

[01:26:02] Handmaid's Tale podcast, the last episode of the week.

[01:26:06] I just got done listening to the podcast.

[01:26:09] It was awesome and I have a couple comments.

[01:26:11] I don't think that Lawrence and Nick are in co-coops together because why would Nick

[01:26:16] go to Mark and make a deal with him if he already had a deal with Lawrence?

[01:26:20] It just doesn't seem very Handmaid's Tale to make multiple deals

[01:26:25] and then have the audience try to figure it out.

[01:26:28] I also think that when Janine grabbed the other lady's hand in the truck,

[01:26:32] question, was that the Martha from Lawrence's party that said

[01:26:38] Buckham when she told Janine about June?

[01:26:41] I thought so, but it could have been a Handmaid.

[01:26:43] I'm not sure.

[01:26:44] Anyway, I thought that Janine was just grabbing her hand

[01:26:48] like in a way of being at peace with whatever happens, happens.

[01:26:55] And I really do think that they have that as the catalyst to what's going

[01:27:01] to happen with Aunt Lydia next season.

[01:27:03] Lastly, it's so hard for me to pick between Luke and Nick because I think sometimes

[01:27:08] in life you love different people at different times for different qualities

[01:27:11] that they have, and I do think June really loves both of them.

[01:27:15] My hope is that next season she comes to peace with herself and finds

[01:27:19] happiness in her own self, not necessarily having anything to do with a man.

[01:27:23] Maybe just taking care of Nicole.

[01:27:27] And I was like kind of happy to see Serena on the train.

[01:27:31] I know it's so weird because she's a terrible, horrible person,

[01:27:34] but I feel empathy for her.

[01:27:39] Anyways, I just love the podcast and I love podcastica.

[01:27:44] I listen to a lot of the podcasts.

[01:27:46] I just have never called in, but I wanted to extend a huge thanks

[01:27:51] to Jason and all the hosts.

[01:27:54] Yeah, I don't even watch Walking Dead anymore,

[01:27:57] but I still listen to podcasts.

[01:27:58] That's pretty funny.

[01:27:59] Anyway, thank you so much.

[01:28:00] I really appreciate it.

[01:28:01] You guys have brought value in my life and I just want to let you know.

[01:28:05] All right, have a good day.

[01:28:07] Kelly, thank you so much for all of your comments.

[01:28:11] Yeah, you should call in more Kelly.

[01:28:13] That was.

[01:28:13] Yeah, please.

[01:28:14] I think we were all feeling the same way about Serena.

[01:28:17] I don't think any of us were like not her.

[01:28:20] No, I was OK with it.

[01:28:23] I was kind of stoked.

[01:28:26] OK, what happens next?

[01:28:27] Power team right there.

[01:28:29] Yeah.

[01:28:30] All right, we got one more.

[01:28:32] This is from Red Leader understudy who had said that I needed to be redeemed for

[01:28:37] something so I messaged her and asked if she could elaborate on that.

[01:28:40] So we'll see what she says.

[01:28:42] I've listened to this yet.

[01:28:43] Here we go.

[01:28:44] Thanks for listening.

[01:28:45] Serena's the best.

[01:28:48] I didn't realize my vaguely ominous message about Jason would cause that much

[01:28:52] confusion, but yes, it was totally about Serena.

[01:28:57] You never really needed redemption, but it was really fun listening to you guys

[01:29:01] try to figure it out.

[01:29:02] So on this episode, I feel vague about the Lawrence situation.

[01:29:07] I don't think he's power hungry.

[01:29:09] I don't think he has nefarious intentions in the end.

[01:29:11] But if he continues in the direction of

[01:29:13] moderation, a lot of things can look moderate compared to Gilead while

[01:29:17] still being really fucked up or someone like Mackenzie could manage to take

[01:29:21] the reins of whatever he's doing and use it for something awful.

[01:29:25] Like, I guess by Gilead rules, if you have another kid, then it just makes you

[01:29:29] the commander in charge of all the other penguins because none of their poorly

[01:29:33] explained power structure makes sense.

[01:29:34] But that being said, New Bethlehem and the Fertility Center for that matter

[01:29:38] have always struck me as a major concern for potential human trafficking.

[01:29:42] So shit's getting scary all over the place.

[01:29:45] So I'm glad to see June leaving because of that.

[01:29:49] But the separation with Luke just fucking killed me.

[01:29:52] I and her standing there saying, I don't want to do this alone.

[01:29:56] He's so important for her.

[01:29:58] Their relationship is so important.

[01:30:00] And I'm scared for Luke like he needs to get out of there too.

[01:30:04] Shit.

[01:30:05] The cinematography of that final scene, both in the train station and on

[01:30:09] the train with all those dark shots, I thought was gorgeous.

[01:30:13] And then, of course, June sees Serena and Serena is like,

[01:30:17] Hey, bro, you got a diaper and June does this smirk like

[01:30:21] well, I want well.

[01:30:23] And I'm already ready for the curb your enthusiasm music to start going.

[01:30:27] Bum, bum, bum, bun and that, and that, and that, and that.

[01:30:30] Oh, man, I think

[01:30:33] the absurdity of the ordinary in crazy or horrible circumstances is a realistic

[01:30:39] and really good storytelling tool, but it just didn't work for me here.

[01:30:43] It's worked in other places like the apples and the grocery store.

[01:30:46] And I think here it's maybe it's just too on the nose for me.

[01:30:50] I think it was a big swing.

[01:30:51] It probably worked for other people.

[01:30:53] So I guess I'm kind of glad they took it anyway, even if it didn't quite work for me.

[01:30:57] What I really want to know is what happened back up

[01:31:00] a wheeler house when they find out that Serena escaped?

[01:31:04] Are there any other fly on the walls you wish we could have seen this season?

[01:31:09] Great job on the coverage and I'll probably see you over at the Walking Dead.

[01:31:14] She needs a podcast.

[01:31:16] I know. Let's look at that too.

[01:31:18] Come guest with us.

[01:31:19] I want to see now I want to see Larry David on Handmaid's.

[01:31:23] Oh, my God.

[01:31:25] Handmaid's not so good.

[01:31:26] I can picture.

[01:31:29] He'd be dad, Jason, he wouldn't survive because he the way he acts would just

[01:31:35] he'd have to be in Canada.

[01:31:37] No way he could be in Gilead, that character.

[01:31:40] Uh oh.

[01:31:42] All right, that's all for season 10 calls.

[01:31:44] I mean, episode 10. Sorry.

[01:31:46] All right, so we can transition to an episode nine message that we received

[01:31:53] from Erica Ferdinand.

[01:31:55] She said just getting to the listener feedback episode.

[01:31:57] Great job on everything you all are doing.

[01:32:00] Wendy, I would love to hear your thoughts about how the testaments

[01:32:04] will translate into a series.

[01:32:07] I had a little time to think about this because I had seen this.

[01:32:12] And I know that the testaments got some criticisms from some people.

[01:32:17] And I thought about that.

[01:32:19] But the novel, A Handmaid's Tale is a really small short novel.

[01:32:26] It's all June's point of view.

[01:32:29] It takes place over a very short period of time in a very

[01:32:34] small place, you know?

[01:32:38] And this show has just blown that whole world up and expanded it and made it amazing.

[01:32:48] And so I definitely think with Bruce Miller at the helm that

[01:32:52] testaments has so much potential.

[01:32:56] And I think he even said that in the interview that

[01:33:01] it wasn't going to,

[01:33:02] testaments was going to be more of a sequel to Handmaid's Tale,

[01:33:07] the show that it was going to be a retelling of the book.

[01:33:11] And so I mean, I'm in line to see it.

[01:33:15] Like I think if anybody can do it, he'll do it.

[01:33:18] And I'm really excited to see him bring that show to life and make it even

[01:33:23] better because I would have never thought that this show could be better than the book.

[01:33:30] And I don't mean that in any criticism to Margaret Atwood, who is my favorite author

[01:33:36] ever, but it is this really small telling and it's just been blown up by the show.

[01:33:43] And it usually goes the other way around.

[01:33:45] I mean, think about people that read Game of Thrones before watching the show

[01:33:50] and all of the debate and criticism over that.

[01:33:55] You know, I feel like we just don't see that because it's so much bigger.

[01:34:00] Mm hmm.

[01:34:01] I mean, I think the Handmaid's Tale book

[01:34:05] feels well, I think the testaments already feels more like a TV show.

[01:34:11] The book than the Handmaid's Tale book did.

[01:34:14] The Handmaid's Tale book felt more like a parable to me or something.

[01:34:17] Then then it got expanded into a show by Bruce Miller.

[01:34:21] But the testaments, even though I think what he's talking about is

[01:34:24] the continuity because there's some things about the books that are different

[01:34:28] than the show, so the testaments show is going to have to align with

[01:34:31] the Handmaid's Tale TV show, which is great.

[01:34:34] But I'm just saying the feel of the Handmaid's Tale book felt less like a TV show

[01:34:39] and the testaments feels more like a TV show that it's more like a spy action.

[01:34:43] He kind of a thing, you know,

[01:34:46] there's definitely more going on.

[01:34:48] Yeah, and I'm excited to see it too.

[01:34:50] I really am more than I was before.

[01:34:53] I don't know why, but as time goes on, I'm more and more excited to see it.

[01:34:55] So that's good.

[01:34:56] I feel the same way, especially when I tried to think about like,

[01:35:02] I think Margaret Atwood wrote testaments

[01:35:06] in a very similar vein of Handmaid's Tale.

[01:35:09] It's very cerebral.

[01:35:10] It's mostly about what people are thinking and what they're feeling at the times.

[01:35:17] But there's definitely it's a much larger story.

[01:35:21] There's plot.

[01:35:22] There's more plot.

[01:35:23] Yeah.

[01:35:24] I think I'm going to stick to not reading it.

[01:35:27] Yeah, yeah.

[01:35:28] Yeah, so we'll have that perspective.

[01:35:30] Yeah, I like that perspective of not having read it because then,

[01:35:36] yeah, I know a few things that happen already, but.

[01:35:39] But it's been really fun.

[01:35:41] This is a tangent, but Daphne's been calling into the Midnight Club podcast,

[01:35:47] you know, Strange Indeed that Rima and Paker doing because that's based on

[01:35:51] a book that Daphne read, so she will call in and leave her thoughts on how the

[01:35:55] book is different from the show.

[01:35:57] And that's been really fun to hear.

[01:35:58] There's so much that I can't even say yet because I still could happen.

[01:36:04] And I'm like, oh, I'm not going to say anything yet.

[01:36:07] So I'm only saying what I can.

[01:36:10] Is that show dark?

[01:36:12] Like,

[01:36:13] I think it's maybe the hospice element of it that I was like, I just don't

[01:36:17] think the tone of it's not as dark as you would think.

[01:36:20] OK.

[01:36:21] It's kind of got a snappy, joss weedney type.

[01:36:24] I mean, just a dirty word these days.

[01:36:26] But you know what I mean?

[01:36:27] Like they use snappy pattern stuff.

[01:36:30] So we also have one voicemail about Episode 9.

[01:36:35] And that's from Jody.

[01:36:37] Here we go.

[01:36:38] Hi, Jason, Daphne and Wendy.

[01:36:40] It's Jody here.

[01:36:41] I just finished watching Episode 9 of Season 5 of The Handmaid's Tale.

[01:36:44] And I just had one comment for you to preface my comment.

[01:36:48] I'm the listener who sent through the breakdowns of Trello and Nick from

[01:36:52] an intelligence perspective.

[01:36:53] Yeah, I'm going to be that person right now and say I told you so.

[01:36:57] I told you, I'm confirmed.

[01:36:59] Unconfirmed source reporting is the worst.

[01:37:01] It gets people killed as the episode just demonstrated.

[01:37:04] Always confirm your source reporting people.

[01:37:07] It's good tradecraft and it keeps everyone alive.

[01:37:11] Can't wait to hear what you think of the episode.

[01:37:13] Bye.

[01:37:14] She's talking about the re the failed read.

[01:37:17] But she's also, as you heard by what Bruce Miller said about Mark,

[01:37:22] she was right on about that too.

[01:37:25] Saying Mark was kind of manipulating everything.

[01:37:28] It actually took me back to what she had written about about Mark and Nick.

[01:37:36] Yeah, we should listen to Jody all the time.

[01:37:39] Yeah, thank you, Jody for contacting us again.

[01:37:45] I think she's maybe she's like a ghost writer for the show.

[01:37:48] She's just not telling us.

[01:37:51] So we're going to move on to a couple of general comments that we've received

[01:37:57] about the show.

[01:37:58] Sarah Collins says, I'm still wondering why Lawrence didn't offer to marry Serena.

[01:38:03] I mean, he was apparently the architect of Gilead and Serena was heavily

[01:38:07] involved in setting up Gilead.

[01:38:09] She definitely hoped for change when she returned to Gilead.

[01:38:12] Wouldn't that have been the perfect match for reforming Gilead?

[01:38:16] No, I think he's too smart for that.

[01:38:18] And she's too smart.

[01:38:20] He doesn't want the power struggle.

[01:38:22] Yeah, he couldn't control her.

[01:38:25] What happened to her last husband?

[01:38:27] Yeah.

[01:38:29] Yeah, I think it's all about just not wanting this wild card that he won't

[01:38:35] be able to manage.

[01:38:36] I think Naomi definitely seems like she'd be more manageable.

[01:38:40] Yeah, seems like it.

[01:38:44] Mary Kruger says, Hi, Jason, Wendy and Daphne.

[01:38:47] I want to thank you so much for your podcast.

[01:38:50] I have appreciated that I can process what I saw as you guys talk and process

[01:38:54] what you experienced.

[01:38:55] I would like to make a comment about Nick and Rose's relationship.

[01:38:59] Oh, I'm here for this.

[01:39:01] Here's my thoughts.

[01:39:02] Rose is the daughter of a high commander.

[01:39:05] Rose has an outwardly visible disability of some sort.

[01:39:09] I think Rose and Nick married in order to keep Rose alive and safe.

[01:39:14] Remember, in Gilead, they get rid of people with known disabilities as

[01:39:19] referenced in June's flashback of women being rounded up and anybody with

[01:39:24] visible genetic imperfections.

[01:39:26] The actress who plays Rose, Carrie Cox, is a Canadian actress.

[01:39:31] She's open about her own disability.

[01:39:33] She has Ehlers-Daniels syndrome.

[01:39:37] I'm sure I'm not saying that right.

[01:39:39] I also think there's a good possibility, as the other wives intimated,

[01:39:43] that Rose might also produce a child who is not genetically perfect,

[01:39:47] might even have Ehlers-Daniels syndrome.

[01:39:51] I think an agreement must have been struck with Nick, probably Rose's father

[01:39:56] or Lawrence, in order to give Nick status and protect Rose.

[01:39:59] Thus, you can't leave.

[01:40:02] My thoughts, what do you think?

[01:40:04] Yeah, I think that sounds really smart.

[01:40:08] They have brought attention to this, I mean,

[01:40:13] bringing up genetic imperfections and that she has this disability, but they've

[01:40:16] also mentioned she's the daughter of a high commander.

[01:40:20] And I think they suggested that's how Nick was able to rise up so fast.

[01:40:23] So that all sounds really smart to me.

[01:40:26] I think they seemed like they were friends and then it grew into something more.

[01:40:32] I mean, I think they care about each other,

[01:40:35] but it obviously has this tinge of being a marriage of convenience.

[01:40:42] If you believe what Bruce said, he doesn't know yet.

[01:40:47] He's waiting for it to become a parent on the show, depending on what the actors do or something.

[01:40:54] He kind of gave it a little bit of a,

[01:40:56] I'm not going to tell you maybe that's what he was trying to say.

[01:40:59] Yeah, I don't blame him.

[01:41:01] You're going to have to wait to find out.

[01:41:04] OK, so Salome Dupont says,

[01:41:07] hello all, I love your podcast and analysis every week.

[01:41:12] I'll miss hearing you until next season.

[01:41:14] I know you should mention that, Salome.

[01:41:16] If you watch show Yellow Jackets, you can hear us over there.

[01:41:21] Sooner.

[01:41:22] Talking about that.

[01:41:23] I have a prediction for the final season, as you all know,

[01:41:27] Atwood got her inspiration for the book from watching the 79 Iranian Revolution.

[01:41:34] I think the final season is being written right now by Iran's brave young women and men.

[01:41:40] And I think seeing Hannah write her name in defiance is a glimpse of what's to come.

[01:41:46] This generation of girls will rise and crush the religious extremist regime

[01:41:51] like they're doing in real life.

[01:41:53] The future lies in their hands.

[01:41:55] June and Serena at all are the past.

[01:41:59] As an aside, there's a social trend happening

[01:42:02] where young Iranians are filming themselves flicking turbines off the head

[01:42:06] of clerics that are walking in the street for decades.

[01:42:11] They told us to wear our hijab correctly and use elastic to hold it tightly

[01:42:15] to our heads so it doesn't accidentally slip back and show our hair.

[01:42:20] And now the joke is that Mullahs need to fasten their turbines on their heads

[01:42:25] with elastic so it doesn't fall off.

[01:42:28] Here's a pic that shows a cleric riding on a motorcycle covering his turban with his

[01:42:32] robe so people don't flick it off.

[01:42:34] She sent a picture of wow.

[01:42:38] I wonder if she's if are you in Iran or did you just come from Iran?

[01:42:43] Yeah, I thought she had said before that she was not in Iran.

[01:42:48] Iran when she wrote in before.

[01:42:51] Yeah. OK.

[01:42:54] Yeah, man. I hope you're right.

[01:42:56] I mean, the

[01:42:58] every day I see in the news there's just more protests.

[01:43:01] It seems.

[01:43:02] And more violence, more violence.

[01:43:05] But I mean, I'm just saying they're they're not backing down, you know?

[01:43:09] Which well, it's a cycle.

[01:43:12] The the more they don't back down,

[01:43:15] the more violence is done upon them, the more outrage.

[01:43:20] And I mean, it's going to peak.

[01:43:23] I just don't want to see hair over hair.

[01:43:26] Yeah, it's just so unthinkable.

[01:43:30] I hate it.

[01:43:31] Hair what? How is that?

[01:43:34] Why? Just yeah.

[01:43:36] Yeah, but it's really what I keep coming back to as a modern day example of

[01:43:44] the craziness of the Handmaid's Tale, you know, actually happening somewhere.

[01:43:48] And I just would love to see people just overthrow that government and get to be free.

[01:43:56] Yep.

[01:43:58] So we have one final voicemail.

[01:44:01] It's from Emily.

[01:44:04] Hi, Handmaid's Tale team.

[01:44:06] This is Emily calling in.

[01:44:09] Thank you all so much for all you do to put out the podcast.

[01:44:12] I've been a Handmaid's Tale fan since day one, and it's been so nice to

[01:44:16] finally have a podcast to listen to and share my reactions and thoughts through this season and last.

[01:44:22] My comment or feedback is more of a suggestion.

[01:44:24] I would love for you guys, I should say those of you who have read the

[01:44:28] Testaments to maybe do a book talk episode, because the closer we get to this series

[01:44:33] being over, the more I have so many thoughts about how Bruce Miller and team are laying

[01:44:38] the foundation for the Testaments show and where I think they could go slash

[01:44:43] where they're going to deviate.

[01:44:44] And so anyway, just love to hear your thoughts there.

[01:44:47] And I know it might be hard to do that because you don't want to spoil the Testaments.

[01:44:51] But I just think especially with Ant Lydia's journey this season with Janine,

[01:44:56] with Hannah and other folks, you know, we know show up in the Testaments.

[01:45:00] I should say spoil or just would love to hear your thoughts.

[01:45:02] Thanks you all so much.

[01:45:05] I will leave that to you too.

[01:45:09] I think that'd be that'd be cool.

[01:45:10] Maybe.

[01:45:12] Diana.

[01:45:13] Diana might like join us.

[01:45:15] I bet she would.

[01:45:16] I kind of want to take a break from all this right now, but maybe we could come back.

[01:45:22] Yeah, like in a month or six weeks or yeah, six months or something like that.

[01:45:27] But I'd be up for it.

[01:45:29] Yeah.

[01:45:30] Yeah, I'm going to leave that to you too because I think I'm going to stay

[01:45:33] away from it.

[01:45:34] Yeah, it will keep my head more clear once Testaments starts.

[01:45:40] That's what I'm doing with House of the Dragon.

[01:45:42] I'm reading it up to where you are, but not cast.

[01:45:46] Yeah, because I like it that way better.

[01:45:50] All right.

[01:45:50] It's fun to have members of the podcast who are familiar with the source material

[01:45:55] and then some who aren't.

[01:45:57] We've had that with Walking Dead.

[01:45:58] We'll have that with Last of Us coming up.

[01:46:00] Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon.

[01:46:02] It works out well, I think.

[01:46:03] Yeah.

[01:46:04] It brings different perspectives and I like that too.

[01:46:07] I think it's good.

[01:46:14] All right.

[01:46:15] That's our show.

[01:46:15] Thanks for listening everyone.

[01:46:18] Thank you, everybody.

[01:46:20] Thanks for listening.

[01:46:22] Thanks so much.

[01:46:24] Yeah, so what do you think was I mean, we're done with the season.

[01:46:27] This is it.

[01:46:29] Oh, it's going to be weird.

[01:46:30] It's going to be a long way.

[01:46:32] Yeah, we were really looking forward to it and it was great.

[01:46:35] And now it's over and we're ready for a break.

[01:46:38] I am ready for a break.

[01:46:39] Yeah, it's heavy.

[01:46:41] Yeah, it's been great.

[01:46:43] And I've been rewatching old episodes just like pieces of it.

[01:46:47] So like that's even heavier.

[01:46:50] I know it is.

[01:46:51] It's got less heavy.

[01:46:52] We're running over a truck seems like a relief.

[01:46:55] No, not really.

[01:46:58] So but I did mention if folks want to check out Showtime's Yellow Jackets

[01:47:05] because Wendy, Jason and I, as well as our good friend Penny, if you don't

[01:47:10] know about the show, great Showtime show.

[01:47:12] And we like Daphne watched it for some reason.

[01:47:16] Why did you start watching?

[01:47:17] It's not as dark as they just happened upon it or did someone tell you about it?

[01:47:25] You got to check this out.

[01:47:28] And Daphne was like, you guys got to watch this show and we're like, yeah,

[01:47:32] which is like no, really, really.

[01:47:33] And then more people.

[01:47:34] Oh, she was right.

[01:47:35] And more people.

[01:47:36] And I'm like, OK, OK, let me check it out.

[01:47:38] Holy shit.

[01:47:38] Such a great show.

[01:47:40] It's like my favorite show of the last five years.

[01:47:43] It's I just want to talk about it with me.

[01:47:46] That's all I wanted.

[01:47:47] OK, we're five episodes in a tense episode season.

[01:47:50] We can't do a podcast effort.

[01:47:51] Let's just do it.

[01:47:52] Let's do it.

[01:47:53] So we started on knowing nothing about like I knew it was like a soccer team.

[01:47:58] That's all I know.

[01:47:59] Yeah.

[01:48:00] And then we did a five episode catch up and then we did episode by episode

[01:48:04] through 10 and we were not tired of the show.

[01:48:06] So we started back over from the beginning and went through one by one.

[01:48:11] And we still I still I mean, I've seen every episode of that show at least three

[01:48:15] times each and some more.

[01:48:17] It's just like, yeah, there's still more to be said always, right?

[01:48:21] It's full of Easter eggs and things.

[01:48:26] Yeah.

[01:48:26] If you if you watch the first episode,

[01:48:28] you will know whether you're going to dig it.

[01:48:30] And if you don't have show time, just get the free trial.

[01:48:33] I really recommend checking this out.

[01:48:34] It's going to be your next obsession.

[01:48:36] Yeah, for sure.

[01:48:38] And I know we're going to get a season sometime in 2023.

[01:48:43] And they're still filming it right?

[01:48:44] So it might be a while.

[01:48:46] Yeah, I feel like it'll be in the first three months.

[01:48:49] I think in maybe April.

[01:48:52] Yeah, that just seems like a good summer.

[01:48:54] Maybe, I don't know.

[01:48:57] And then what else is happening right now is and or has been really good.

[01:49:03] It's smart.

[01:49:04] It's Star Wars, but it's more adult.

[01:49:07] It's slower burn.

[01:49:09] It feels a bit handmade.

[01:49:10] It's tail, actually, but not as heavy.

[01:49:14] It's not as heavy, but it's it's spy thriller, too, kind of thing.

[01:49:17] It's it's really good.

[01:49:19] And it gets if you get if you feel like it's going too slow, just hang on because

[01:49:25] now it's like, oh, yeah, this is incredible.

[01:49:28] And what else?

[01:49:29] Walking Dead, we're wrapping up the series after 12 years.

[01:49:33] There's two more episodes left.

[01:49:36] Can you believe it?

[01:49:37] I said, can you believe that it's coming to a hundred dead heads coming together?

[01:49:43] I can't wait.

[01:49:44] Yeah, I felt like I saw the trailer for the finale and it said

[01:49:49] the Walking Dead series finale.

[01:49:51] And I felt started to feel emotional about it for sure.

[01:49:57] I'm really glad that so many of us are going to be together

[01:50:01] to watch it because I think it is going to be emotional.

[01:50:05] Yeah, it will, for sure.

[01:50:07] It's going to be so great.

[01:50:09] So we will we will be back for the final season of The Handmaid's Tale.

[01:50:16] Yes.

[01:50:18] And maybe we'll do something in between.

[01:50:20] Yeah.

[01:50:21] If we can manage to connect with a couple cast

[01:50:26] actors that might be a possibility, maybe.

[01:50:29] Yeah, that would be fantastic.

[01:50:31] Sounded like it was a good possible.

[01:50:33] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:50:35] So make sure you if you enjoy our coverage of The Handmaid's Tale,

[01:50:40] make sure that you go out on Apple Podcasts and subscribe, follow,

[01:50:46] rate, review not only on Apple, but if you have whatever your podcast

[01:50:51] platform of choice is.

[01:50:53] Thank you.

[01:50:54] All right, that's our show.

[01:50:56] Thanks for listening, everybody.

[01:50:58] We'll see you next season.