21. "Seeds of Shadow" (The Wheel of Time S3E3)

[00:00:23] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Greg. And I'm Veronica. And this is the Wheel of Time chat. Nope. Damn it. Sorry. I'm sorry. And this is the Wheel of Time cast.

[00:00:44] Why that caught me? Okay. This week we're covering The Wheel of Time Season 3, Episode 3, Seeds of Shadow. So there was a lot to pay off for book readers in this episode. A couple of very significant ones.

[00:01:10] And then some other things that were not as obvious. They were not ones that really... They're basically kind of like what I talked about as far as Nynaeven Land and whatnot, stuff you didn't see. You didn't get a lot of the stuff going on in this episode. And it is awesome to... It's like seeing the stuff fleshed out. And I think it's great. I love it.

[00:01:37] Cool. I think as a non-book reader, it felt like, okay, we're getting some story progression, but I wasn't like wowed by this one. I feel like the same way I was the last two. But I'm still excited and still... I think I'm hopeful that next episode that we get some big exciting things happening. I think we will. I think we will. Yeah. I mean, it's a mid-season finale or whatever. Yeah.

[00:02:06] Even though it's only like two weeks into the season being released. It's crazy. But yeah, no, I imagine that you're right. I imagine that we will. But all right. So why don't you hit us with the Amazon summary? Okay. So Amazon says, Nynaeve and Elaine are given a deadly mission, which I think is what they said about them last week. Like, Perrin learns the consequences of his rage, which I question slightly.

[00:02:33] And then Lanfear begins to play a dangerous game, which I also question, hasn't she been playing a dangerous game this whole time? So again, disappointed in Amazon's description. I get that they're trying to not spoil anything, but a little silly. Let's hear your... I think the last week's, or not last week's, like the episode twos was actually pretty like, okay, yeah, I can see where they were coming from with those.

[00:02:58] And I can understand where they're coming from on these, but it's just super misleading. Yeah. So my summary, and I feel like I'm Amazon, like getting into Amazon style now. More Forsaken are revealed. Nynaeve and Elaine investigate to find Leandrin. Perrin works to fortify his people to protect them. The Black Aja make a stronghold in Tanchico.

[00:03:27] The Red Aja plots to regain their former strength and position. Rand and company discover more about the Aiel culture and politics. And Matt rediscovers his inner badass. Very nice. Yeah, I think you kind of hit it.

[00:03:49] I can see where show-only people would be like, okay, this is the story you're telling, and you're laying more groundwork, and we get more characters. I feel like they're trying to only introduce them one or two at a time. And I think they're probably combining some characters so that there aren't as many as there are in the books.

[00:04:13] Because, I mean, right now you've probably got, I'd say, 20 headliners, like main, main characters, depending on how you look at it. It's a large cast with a lot of complicated names. Like the amount of times that I'm pausing to be like, is this someone's name? Is this a new place I'm learning about? Or is this the name of a strange item that I don't understand that has a weird name? Like it is a dense show for sure.

[00:04:43] And yeah, they introduced even more characters this episode for sure. Yeah, it's like, and again, like I do like that we are like kind of getting some of the same characters, like seeing the continuation of arcs. And then we're twisting apart, and then we're combining different combinations of characters. So yeah, I'm loving it.

[00:05:11] And I, as I, but as I said, I can see where show, show only people would not be as excited, because obviously you don't necessarily know what's coming and you don't know what to be excited about. For sure. All right. So how about your questions? Okay. What do you got? My first question is, can you remind me like what we know about the origins of the Forsaken? Like, I just don't remember.

[00:05:41] Like, I know they're the big bad people that are closest to the Dark One and seem to be very involved with the Dragon Reborn each time. And they seem to be immortal and quite, quite powerful. But like, why are they immortal? And what exactly are they? Did they used to be humans?

[00:06:04] Like, so I will say, so I will do some, some of the stuff is stuff they've talked about. Some is just like kind of my own personal thoughts on stuff. But I will say the Forsaken are basically the Dark One's generals. They are the ones who would be most likely for him to like speak to, but it'd kind of be like God speaking to you, right?

[00:06:33] It'd be like, like maybe destroy your brain if he didn't protect you from the sound of his voice. Okay.

[00:06:41] So, so if you wanted to like compare it to maybe Christianity where I don't remember Alan Rickman's name in, in dogma, but he was the voice of God because he was the one who would pass messages on from God to individuals, to humans so that they wouldn't be destroyed by the, the sound of God's voice. Okay.

[00:07:09] And, and so these are basically his top, as, as, as Moiraine said, his like top lieutenants or his top generals. He gives them ideas of like an idea or maybe he only speaks to one, right? Because it sounds like Ishmael was Nablus who would be the leader of the Forsaken. Um, and then now, and that's who the Dark One would speak through. Okay.

[00:07:38] Um, so the other Forsaken had to like kind of trust that they were people, they were channelers, uh, they were able to access the one power. Um, and some were strong, some were not, some were, uh, kind of like our main characters. Uh, some were prideful, some were, you know, whatever. And each of them had their own reason for joining the shadow, um, whatever that may be.

[00:08:09] Um, so that's kind of, and like back in, uh, the war with the shadow or the war of power or, or whatever it was called 3000 years ago. Um, these were the ones like, they're the ones who have been alive since then. And that extended life, they were one, they were trapped in the seals, which basically kind of like what Luz Theron told Ishmael at the end of last season.

[00:08:37] Um, like you're not really asleep, but you're not really awake. Like you're awake, but you don't like feel anything. Um, so you're almost like, in my opinion, you almost be like driven mad by, you know, 3000 years of imprisonment. So in previous, like, have there been, there's been more than just these two cycles of the dragon, right? Like this happens.

[00:09:05] So in previous iterations, would the forsaken have died and been churned back out by the wheel? Potentially. I think the reason these are immortal, that these forsaken are immortal and have been around for 3000 years is because of being trapped. Right.

[00:09:26] I think that the, yeah, I think that the, uh, the idea would be that the reason that they are like so long lived is just like I said, I, they live for a long time. Okay. But the reason that they have all the knowledge of 3000 years ago is that they were trapped. And now, now that they are set free, um, they are given extended life by the dark one or additional powers or whatever. Okay.

[00:09:55] That makes sense. All right. Next question. Yep. So who is the false dragon that they keep referencing? He's not someone we, is he someone we've met before? We have not, we have not seen him before. Um, uh, Mazrin Tain. Yeah. Uh, in Saldea. Um, so this is a, Mazrin Tain is another false dragon, very similar to Loghain.

[00:10:21] Um, apparently he can channel, uh, I guess, I guess part of it is that like people would claim to be the dragon, but like not even be able to channel. I don't really know why. Maybe it's like a, a political following or I don't know. But, um, you know, because of, you know, this, that, or the other, like, oh, this one can actually channel. I know they, they said that a number of times in, in either the books or in the show, but, uh, no, we have, we have not seen him.

[00:10:50] All we've heard is reference to him. Um, and I, he's in the books. Okay. So that's, that's what I'll say. Okay. It's not like just some random person they're sending people after. Somewhat related to that. Um, twice in this episode, there's talk about hunting either the dragon or the false dragon.

[00:11:14] And both times, you know, they're talking about the red Aja and they specifically both times mentioned sending eight sisters. So the first time it says a party of eight, the next time it's a directive to the highest chair to take herself plus seven sisters. So is there a reason that they're specifically choosing eight?

[00:11:36] So I don't, I can't guarantee this, but so my thoughts are that in the book, if you had 13 Aes Sedai, um, or people who could channel no matter how weak they were, how inexperienced they were, whatever. All 13 of them linked could gentle or still, uh, uh, uh, uh, a power channeler in the books.

[00:12:00] There were also 13 forsaken, which might have been like the reason that there were 13 so that if you had to, so that they could all cover the dragon or the dragon reborn or whatever. Um, they could take care of them, take them out if they all banded together to, to work. My guess is that there are only eight forsaken. So my guess is that the number of people necessary to, you know, Hey, you can overtake people no matter what, uh, is, is eight.

[00:12:29] If that makes sense. Does Ishmael count as one of the eight? Yes. And he's gone. So we technically just have seven to worry about that we know of. Okay, cool. Does that answer your question? And yeah, I think that's an interesting parallel that there were 13 forsaken in the book and that it was a, you know, 13. Yeah, that, that number was changed to eight. And then the number of Aes Sedai required is changed to eight.

[00:12:58] I feel like they are linked. Um, I'm sure that they will address why they send eight sisters after like, but if, if you're, Hey, the question came up. So I'm, I don't feel bad answering that. Cool. I think it also is cool because I think it does tie to the number of forsaken as well. Yeah. Very interesting. Do you want to take a break and then we will come back and jump into points? Sounds good. See you in a few.

[00:13:44] All right. And we are back. Um, we're going to go ahead and get into our points. Uh, so we have, you know, again, we've kind of like made six points to talk about. Um, but, uh, Veronica, how about you go ahead and pick the first one? Yeah. Can we just start with the cold open, which was like the reveal of a lot of the forsaken? I am totally down with that.

[00:14:07] Uh, let me just, I just want to say that they are almost artistic in like the, in the cold opens. Think about the things we've seen in the cold opens. Like we saw Rand's birth. Um, like we saw the ideal for the first time, like in action in, in, in his mother. Um, we saw the, um, uh, we saw the Ishmael releasing Lanfear.

[00:14:35] Uh, we saw the dragon and the animal in seat before they went to go. He went to go try to seal away the dark one. We saw Ishmael and the dragon, like as Ishmael was getting imprisoned. And all of these are, are given to us with after context so that we understand more and with like leading up to, so that if you go back and you watch the next, like however many

[00:15:03] episodes and then you go back and watch it again, it, it almost hits you with like a different light. I think they do a phenomenal job. They get like what the entirety of the opening battle in episode one was all the cold open. Yeah. The, all of, all of Nine Yaves, uh, wait, was, was it, no, it was like the first, yeah. The beginning of the archers, like until she walked away with Lan, I believe all of that

[00:15:29] was like the beginning of the episode or before she went in. And then when she and Lan like ran, walked away, that was when the, the title card came up and it's like, Oh my God. Um, I, I do notice that like, I think last, last season they had mentioned, um, that, uh, they were like, Hey, like we want to give you more show. So if we can save three minutes, but I did notice that a couple of times this, this season,

[00:15:59] they've actually had the whole, uh, the whole intro. Yeah. But each episode is still, but yeah, but they're long episodes. I think people are just like, I don't care if I, if, if I'm going to like it, I'm going to like it. And, uh, that's the way that it is. Um, but yeah, so let's talk about the, the forsaken. Um, so I think like get the first like big thing off the table, which is the reveal that

[00:16:27] Gabriel, who now this explains all the weird interactions that happened last episode that I was like, you know, why did Liani, Liani, Liani, Liani, Liani, why did Liani like do that weird pause? Almost like she didn't know who she was introducing, but then when she introduced him seemed like he was an old friend and it was like, Oh, cause like she legit didn't know who he was when he first walked in.

[00:16:56] And then he is so powerful that he immediately like charmed an entire room of Aes Sedai into, uh, into, um, believing that they knew him. Uh, Queen Morgays thinks she's been with him for 10 plus years as obviously does Elaine, who has a fabulous rapport with this man. Yeah. And he's just recently popped up into their lives.

[00:17:27] You've only been free a month and you've already got a queen in your bed. Yeah. Uh, like, Oh dude, he is like, you're an artist with compulsion and you're just like, man, it doesn't feel like compulsion would be compulsion be like, Hey, I'm going to make them do something or make them believe something. But like, he has an entire backstory that he just like loads into someone's head the instant that he sees them. Yeah. And on top of that reveal, we find out not only is he like a double crosser, but he's

[00:17:53] a double double crosser because not only is he Gabriel, who we all thought was great jovel guy last episode. Not only is he revealed as a forsaken, he's pretending to do something with land fear and at least four others to take down Mogadian. Mogadian? I can't say any of these names. Mogadian? Mogadian. Mogadian? Yeah.

[00:18:19] And then at the end of their meeting, out comes Mogadian and they're in cahoots. So he is double dirty. Don't love it, but very interested. Um, so scary. The amount of power that he has. How do you defeat that? Yeah. Well, the way that Mogadian was, was like looking at him, uh, whatever. I'm like, is he using compulsion on her? Is she, does she feel like she's protected?

[00:18:48] Does land fear shield feel like she's protected? Can semi LC weaves? Like, uh, like with someone like that, you can't have any comp, like you, you can't know if your thoughts are your own. Yeah. And that's just bonkers. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, so I would say that I agree that, uh, so, so Gabriel is Raven. So if you guys didn't, I don't remember if they, I said his name.

[00:19:15] So yeah, Raven, uh, is, is his real name and Gabriel is his persona. Uh, the other ones that we met or the other one that we met, uh, was Samael, um, from either, I think from basically from Scotland. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, and he, he, he and Lanfear definitely like had it out for each other.

[00:19:35] Um, and then, uh, the other ones mentioned were Grandal or Grandal, Grandal, something like that. And Semerage. Yeah. Yeah. And that means that we have heard of Gabriel or sorry, Raven, Samael, Lanfear, Malkhedion, Grandal, Semerage, and Ishmael. Yep. So we're just missing one. Which means there's, we're missing one.

[00:20:05] We're actually missing six from like the book. So I'm like trying to figure out which of the other six, uh, it is. Have we had any clues about, about like, there's not been anything really. Right. There's, there's been there and I've, you know, there's been talk, uh, by some of my friends who've read the books and watch the show and they're like, Oh, I think it's going to be this one. No, this one.

[00:20:29] I'm like, ah, man, like it's, it's tough because, um, each one, I would say that there are like three that I'm like, I could totally see it being this one or so totally see it being that one. Um, because there were a few that were like not as significant or didn't have as big a part to play. But, uh, I'm glad that they, that we've seen all at least seen four of them. Yeah. Four of them.

[00:21:00] Um, and then obviously Ishmael. Um, and then, so we saw a couple other things there, right? Um, we heard about Nablus. So that's the, the leader of the chosen that's, or the, the forsaken. Um, and then I'm going to say the other interesting thing was you saw them basically just appearing. You saw that the way that they could teleport effectively.

[00:21:26] Um, and in the books that's called traveling. Um, and it is very interesting. Uh, but I like how different symbols showed up when like Lanfear did it and then Samuel did it. And like, they made like different motions with their hands or whatever. Yeah. Um, so one was with Siddhar, one was with Siddhar, unless there's something else there that, uh, that we're not familiar with.

[00:21:54] So how, how do you feel about the forsake? Do you have other stuff you want to mention? That was all I had to say. I mean, I just, they are being real slow about sort of revealing the forsaken and, you know, things about them and what they can really do. That's the way it was in the books too. Cool. Um, makes them a lot more ominous. Yeah. When, when you are waiting for something like every time you see the, one of them show up, you're like, Oh, what's going to happen now?

[00:22:23] Am I going to learn something or am I just watching them be horrible people? Yeah. Um, okay. So if that finishes off the forsaken, like I'm going to go through, and this is going to be a longer one. Um, Elida and the red Aja. All right.

[00:22:40] Um, so I have a whole mess of notes about this and I can kind of boil it down, I think, but I want you to, I want you to, to, to kind of maybe call me on something. Nope. I'm only going to be quiet during this point. Sorry. All right.

[00:23:00] So it seems to me that Elida is one trying to figure out what's going on in the tower in general, um, for herself as well as for Morghese. Yep.

[00:23:13] Uh, two, she wants the red Aja to restore itself to the strength and power and kind of dignity that it had when she was the highest, which was greater than 20 years ago because we saw her, uh, help Morghese win her, her, uh, succession war. Mm-hmm. Three, my guess is for a power grab for herself.

[00:23:41] Um, like she suggested replacing Tusa or Sutama, um, as a sitter because she's being taken, you know, sent off to find Mazurtaim. Um, she, like, it was absolutely insane to me that she's like, Hey men, I know you're a seer. Like, Hey, you know, the truth is, is a heavy burden.

[00:24:05] Uh, but I, and I know that you're supposed to be, you know, keeping an eye on me and reporting everything I say, but can you possibly keep this one thing that is absolutely bonkers? And like, Hey, uh, the red Aja is going to make a power grab. Swan's going to lose. Uh, and then we're going to go cage the dragon reborn. Like, that's a huge thing to not say to someone that is. Like, I just don't get it.

[00:24:30] I mean, if there was no reason for her to upset it, unless she in fact wanted men to take it back. Otherwise it was a really poor choice for exposition. So we would know what was going on. Yeah. I just, it didn't, unless she was trying to frighten men away, maybe that was the other possibility. But like, I just, just like, what is happening?

[00:24:59] Like, it's not like, Oh, Hey, you know, I, I'm seeing some man or, uh, I'm whatever. Right. Hey, this is just personally embarrassing for me. But, um, but yeah, like to me, it like, it's like, she's asking men, she's saying, Hey men, go tell them this. And I don't care if you do, because everything's going to go, go down exactly as I see it. Anyway, I don't know.

[00:25:30] It was strange to me for sure. And what is the deal with the red bracelet? Is that why her hand is shaking? I wasn't sure in the first scene if the bracelet had anything to do with the handshake and like knocking everything off the vanity. But then when, at the beginning of that conversation with men, she does admit the bracelet is special, but she doesn't really say why. Yeah. It's part of a foretelling sort of.

[00:26:00] Um, and so foretelling is like, it's kind of what we saw. And I think we might've talked about last season, uh, guitarists and I made the foretelling. Like they almost like say like, this is a foretelling this, I have the gift of sight. And like, they have to like say that before each time they have a foretelling or whatever. And I do understand where she's coming from with regard to the idea of, Hey, don't just like sit by and let it happen. Like take advantage of it.

[00:26:27] Now, if you see someone is not going to die, then I don't see how you can really take advantage of that. Um, if you see that Matt is hanging, you're like, Oh, you know, use it to your advantage. Well, how the hell do I use Matt hanging to my advantage? Like what the hell is it? Like, I feel like it doesn't apply. Sure. Or a, a very broad foretelling of the, you know, the, the queendom of Andor will have a significant role in the last battle.

[00:26:58] Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's broad enough and not specific and not like one particular action. But also like almost too broad to really be helpful. It's sort of like, okay, this big major army will have an important role in this big major battle. Ooh, surprise. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, the other part to it is, is that I think that prophecies and foretellings, they, they almost like set you up to fail. Right.

[00:27:25] So kind of like we talked about, uh, I think in episode one, um, where, um, where Moiraine went, took Rand to die of the world so that he could defeat the dark one, which then gave him the song real that like way insert his power. And like amped up his power. And then that's how Ishmael was. So basically she made it happen. And by trying to prevent whatever it is.

[00:27:53] And we saw how men's, uh, visions last season were misleading, you know, and kind of could have led you to make assumptions that, you know, Matt was bad, even though like what you saw him doing was not related to, you know? So. Yeah. She doesn't see like a, a, a scene by scene thing. She sees. A moment in time. Yeah. Not even a moment in time. A potential moment in time. That was, you know, that was Matt stabbing Rand, not throwing a spear at him. Yeah.

[00:28:23] It was, it was, it was, there was a very definitive difference between what men sees and what actually happens, um, in those truth telling moments. So. It's a little, little, you know, it's hard to take advantage of that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and like we said, like prophecies really set themselves up for, you know, for, for craziness anyway.

[00:28:47] Um, uh, the fact that, uh, Elida like called out, uh, Sutama for not fighting for the seat that she had earned as a sitter. I was like, that's actually a valid point. Like that's. It is. And she's ballsy. Yeah. And I guess she's a powerful lady who's been used to wielding that power. Yeah.

[00:29:12] Um, she did say, um, that a blue sister once told me, uh, you know, pay attention to who the servants are in your rooms, uh, then find out why they're a place there. It makes me wonder who the blue sister was. Yeah. Um, and I feel like that person will possibly either come back or be named later.

[00:29:35] Um, and then she is going to, you know, she tried to get the, get Sutama to go and put up a vote for, to go cage Randolph Orr. Um, but then preemptively, um, Swan sent Sutama to go do the, the Muslim team. So I, I feel like, and then I'm glad we already talked about the seven sisters, eight sisters.

[00:30:02] Um, I do think that she was pretty ballsy threatening Liana and, uh, and Varen cross me now and I'll never forget it. Right. I was like, I mean, she, this woman has some presence. This actor has some presence and, and, and I know you had mentioned her, her like gravelly voice beforehand. Um, and then apparently there have been, there's been some like feedback where it's just like super distracting or something like that.

[00:30:29] Uh, and I can appreciate that having said that, like right now, like watching what she does, I've, I guess maybe I've become used to it. And it's, to me, it almost like increases her gravitas. I, I think so too. Like, especially this episode, it felt more appropriate as we learn more about her character. And I feel like they're setting her up to be this obvious sort of like bad character.

[00:30:56] And like, I feel like I almost suspect her too much. And that like, I don't actually think she's bad. Like I was sitting there thinking like, if you're of the red Aja and you've also been away from the white tower and out of things for a while, like her intention to go like one, restore the standing of the red Aja in the tower.

[00:31:20] As well as wanting to go hunt down the dragon and disagreeing with Swan in the fact that they're not. I think it's all like pretty reasonable. Like, you know, and so I think like she's strong and abrasive, but I don't think she's necessarily like wrong. I don't think we know what is right or wrong in, in how to deal with the dragon. Right. And so I don't know.

[00:31:49] I was just, at first I really disliked her and suspected her, but then I was like, I think they're just trying to make me suspect her. And like, maybe she actually has good intentions. They're just not in line with the way Swan is hoping. The people that we are. Yeah. That doesn't mean that our people, like, you know, it's a gray area on what you do with Rand. Right. Right. So I do want to address something though.

[00:32:17] So we saw when, um, Swan and Moiraine were there for the foretelling, that was 20 years ago.

[00:32:30] Um, and then we saw last episode, it was 20 years ago that Morghese was put on the lion throne, which means that it was after that, that Swan went to, uh, like was elected as Amarlin or assigned or, or whatever as Amarlin.

[00:32:51] And, and, and Aleda came back to challenge her for the Amarlin seat because she almost beat out Swan, uh, for the, for assignment as the Amarlin. So it makes me wonder if I'm like. Could it have been like, could it have been the reverse? So like. What do you mean? Oh no, I guess not. Because Swan was definitely not the Amarlin 20 years ago.

[00:33:20] Cause it did say 20 years ago when, when we saw the, saw that. Um, and then, um, it did say 20 years ago when she put Morghese on the throne. And then I feel like after that is when, uh, Swan and Moiraine started plotting for Swan to become the Amarlin seat. So it had to have been, I would say a cut a number of years after that.

[00:33:44] So it just, it makes me wonder when was Swan brought up as Amarlin? And, uh, and then like, how did Aleda, Aleda who had been like in Andor this whole time, how had she, how did she like almost beat out Swan? So I just, I'm interested to see past, uh, like I could totally see like a prequel, like in the prequel, the white tower. Yeah.

[00:34:08] Um, it'd be, I think it'd be, be cool to, to, to hear more about, but that's all of the stuff that I had as far as Aleda and the reds. Same. Okay.

[00:34:33] Do you want to just move into talking about the other things going on at the white tower with Nynaeve and Elaine and Matt? Um, so we get this really cool scene.

[00:34:47] Um, of Nynaeve and Elaine questioning the black Aja that they have captured and they're trying all these tactics and they acknowledge like, um, I guess at the end of all of it, they sort of realized like they were probably just being lied to the whole time. And that it was probably all the waste, but they try to be really bad ass.

[00:35:11] They get these two black Aja, Amico, who is the lady who's like crying at first. And they're like, can you cut it out? And she finally dries up and it's like, oh, okay. I'll tell you about how the black Aja work in groups of three called hearts. And we knew the three of us plus like one person outside of our heart. And the person I knew outside of my heart was Landrin.

[00:35:36] And I know she's going to tear to help a forsaken pull the sort of calendar calendar, which immediately they're like, well, that doesn't make sense. Cause we know no one, but the dragon can pull the sword. Okay. Um, and then Joya, they finally break. And she says Landrin is going to find the false dragon and Saldir Mandarantine who we talked about.

[00:36:03] And so basically they realize all that has been for naught, right? I'm just going to say that I, I am kind of laughing at all of your pronunciations. Oh, they're so bad. I'm so sorry. No, it's, I just, I think it's a, Mazrim tame. You said like Madarin time or something like that. Oh my gosh. I had literally written down Mandarin, Mandarin time. Yeah. Mazrim tame or something like that.

[00:36:30] I think sometimes I don't take a lot of, like I'd pause on a lot of them, but sometimes I don't. Cause I'm like, Oh, I won't actually say this out loud and Greg will say it and it'll be fine. But I need to like put those in italics so that I don't have this moment where I try to read it. That was, that was just really funny. I'm sorry. No, it's fine. Um, okay.

[00:36:52] So I don't like, I don't really understand what took them from questioning these women to being like, Oh yeah. I knew where Landrin was keeping her elderly son. Let's go look there. Um, I think. Why wasn't that an original thought that, you know, this very important piece of things about Landrin? Uh, yes, I know.

[00:37:20] I, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Um, but I think that, I think it was almost like a natural thing. Like, Hey, I know that Varen and the Amarillyn really want us to focus on Joya and Amako. Yeah. Uh, because they, they're, the answer is in their heads. Go get it.

[00:37:39] And so they're like, okay, so this is like, yes, we're looking for Leandrin, but we're also trying to see if they can have the name of their black sisters in the tower or we can, you know, get some other information. Or is there something we're not even thinking about that they know about? Um, so yes, I agree that they're, you know, they, their, their heads are full of knowledge that could absolutely be useful to the Aes Sedai.

[00:38:02] Um, but I think that they kind of hit a wall and then that was when they, when Naive was like, okay, well, we've kind of done what the Amarillyn told us to do. So let's go ahead and go try this other lead that I happen to have because I happen to follow her in this one particular time.

[00:38:28] Um, so yeah, I think that that is, that, that's kind of like the, uh, the, the thing that bugged me was like, oh, they didn't mention any of the objects that they, that were stolen. Like you haven't been looking through the objects. What are you talking about? How there are literally just like sheets and sheets and sheets of, of stuff that they took.

[00:38:51] And like, oh, and it, I think it is, I think it is like a little hard to believe that just because they were familiar with the Adam or Adam or however they call it. Um, they figured out, oh yes, like they, we figured out precisely her plan.

[00:39:14] They stole 40 objects, but we pinpointed the one that looks like she's looking for a collar for this. I'm like, I feel that's like, I don't, I don't really like that. Yeah. I didn't, didn't particularly care for that. It was, uh, yeah. It's okay though. Cause it got them. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I just feel like, you know, super, super lucky.

[00:39:40] It was definitely a lot of like what felt to me like fast forwarding through things that would have taken them a lot of time to search. Right. Like, like they, they, they do go to the place where Leander needs to keep her son and they find that like symbol under the bed. And we immediately fast forward to a scene of her finding the matching symbol in a book. Right. Like that was pretty awesome. Yeah. Like that. Absolutely. Like that I understand. Right.

[00:40:04] Like, oh, Hey, we looked through 400 books before we found this and it's been two weeks, but you know, like I, that's boring stuff. Um, but then it was just, to me, it was just absolutely insane that it was just like, we happen to put the pieces together with all of the, it's like you, you found like in a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, you found like 12 pieces that happened to line up directly together.

[00:40:32] And, oh, I, I figured this out. Yeah. Um, it just, a little bit of suspension of disbelief, uh, maybe, maybe a lot. Uh, but, uh, you know what? Hey, like sometimes you got to make jumps in order to, in order to like move, move plots forward. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I will say that I was just like, that, that bugged me. I was just like, oh, that's really weird.

[00:40:54] So did you notice the gray man when they were going to, like, I thought he was going to attack them while they were out in town going into the room where the sun had been. Cause he was behind them then. Uh, yeah. On, on second or third watch, whichever watch it was. Um, I, I was like, why didn't he like, like there's, you had to wait for them to find the special thing.

[00:41:22] Like he's, he's, you're, he's in this area right now. So like, why not just kill them then? And I don't know who the target was. I don't know if it was nine native again, or if it was, uh, Elaine. Cause Elaine was the one who was hit. Uh, like she like, I guess it was a crossbow, a crossbow bolt. Yeah. Um, hit like grazed in the side of her head. Um, and, uh, and then, you know, Elaine whips her out.

[00:41:51] And then I did, I did find the, the wording weird with Varen. Um, like, Oh, she never wondered who stabbed him. Well, like, what is that? Is that a question that you would ask when you saw a dead gray man with two, you know, of the strongest, you know, I, you know, novices are accepted out there. Like, what's, uh, like, I, she never wondered who stabbed him. So that means she stabbed him.

[00:42:19] And so we're not going to be safe until like, I feel like you're jumping to conclusions. I wish that what they had done is before Varen walked up, they acknowledged that he'd been stabbed. I wish that that timing of things had been shuffled slightly. So they said it in front of her, acted surprised. It was apparent to her that they had not stabbed them and she still wasn't curious about it.

[00:42:47] Then I would have been like, huh, that's weird. I agree. Nine nave. But the way that it played out, I agree with you that it felt like, well, was it that strange? She didn't ask. Did she know it had been stabbed? Like, you know, it, it was just sort of strange. And I just think like a slight shift in the way that they did the scene would have made me buy more than it was suspicious. Right.

[00:43:12] But once they pointed out and called her out for being suspicious, I am suspicious of her for a few reasons. One, like I think using men to spy in the White Tower is weird. And like, she's the one who set that up.

[00:43:32] I also think it's very interesting that her, she got hit with the same like spell and her memory is intact. Yeah. Um, so that's all very like interesting and suspicious to me. And so now I don't trust Farron either, but who knows? It feels like this has turned into a giant like murder mystery. And I don't know.

[00:44:02] Everybody is. Can you imagine being in that situation where you literally don't know who you can trust? No. It sucks. Like, like, it's not like a murder mystery in like a theater where you're like, oh, anybody could have done it. No, literally anyone could kill you at any given time. Yeah. Also gray men that you're not supposed to notice. Yeah. And everyone's very, very powerful. Don't like that. Don't like that. Yeah. I do not envy any of those positions, any of the people in those positions. No.

[00:44:31] Um, so yeah, I, uh, I, I will say that I did like, I liked the fact that they addressed, um, that like Elaine addressed to Nynaeve about like, you know, you kind of liked the Elander, didn't you? Yeah. I, I thought that she was trying to help me. I thought, you know, yeah, she, sure. She was trying to recruit me for the dark, but like. It's because she thought that's what's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:59] Hey, she suffered and she, you know, she really, you know, she tried to help me. And, um, and I, I, I will say, and I'm going to pick Tanchico for our next point. Um, but, uh, I, I, I liked the fact that they like acknowledged it and they acknowledged that there is some respect there for Leandrin, uh, from Nynaeve.

[00:45:29] Given that they, they both kind of went through the same thing. Like Leandrin had a son that she lost. And Nynaeve had a daughter that she lost in the arches. Like she had an entire life with her six, seven, eight year old daughter and lost her. So you can kind of empathize a little bit. Yeah. One of the things I was watching a few minutes, I didn't get to watch the whole thing of like the little after show for this episode.

[00:45:54] And this is actually one of the points they were discussing and just in general, sort of talking about how, um, even sort of the characters that play more of the villain roles in this, uh, series are still complex characters where you can see them as a, as like a whole person who is not just, it's not black and white. Like there's lots of gray area.

[00:46:21] And even if you disagree with their actions, you can possibly have empathy for the path that led them there. Right. And a Leandrin is such a good example of that. And you know what we see in this episode, I think what we knew of her already pointed to that. But this episode, like really, I think drove that point home with her that she is a complicated person. So I think that's a cool thing about this series.

[00:46:48] I think any good, uh, villain is complicated and not just one dimensional. So pretty cool. Yeah. So I, I think, I mean, outside of, you know, them leaving for Tanchico, I think we've covered all of Nainyev and Elaine. Yeah. Uh, I kind of want to like talk about Matt. Yeah. Let's do Matt and Min, I guess. Or do you want to?

[00:47:18] Well, let's just tie it all together because I mean, um, so yeah. So Matt and Min, like Matt didn't have much to do, uh, this, this, he basically was just like, Hey, you know, oh men, you're, you know, you're, you're bugging me. Like, oh, you still suck. And, uh, she's just like, no, I get it. I suck. But like, I am trying to work on some stuff. And he's just, he's like, oh my God, like just cut it out.

[00:47:45] And then she sees the vision of him and he's like, no, don't tell me whatever shit that is in store for me. I don't want to know. Like, oh, I am a fancy pretty boy person who's going to save you woman. Maybe I can get you into bed. And, uh, and so like then, and then Matt's just like, oh, take a day off. Will you? Like, that was hysterical. Like that was, that was a, that was a great line.

[00:48:11] Um, and, uh, but so then, so then we get back to, um, you know, Matt is just like, okay, you know what? I just gotta go blow off some steam. Um, I don't know if this is like his memories or if this is his, like his actual skill with a quarterstaff. I think it's his memories, right? Like, I don't think. I would think so as well. I think that's why Nynaeve was so, so sort of shocked about it.

[00:48:40] I think this was Matt plus. This was pulled directly from the book and it is even more gratifying on screen than it was in writing. Because the theatrics of this were so much better. Like Matt's just like, you know what? Fine. You know what? All right. All right, dude. Like I'm done. Or else what? Like, oh, leave. The woman wants to leave.

[00:49:09] Like, I'm just, as a real quick aside, everybody has all these conversations in places they should not have them. Even when they're trying to be secretive. Hey, I'm like 12 feet away. Or Leandrin. Oh, you mean the, the, the person who's not here anymore? That was a part of a huge, no one else has been told anything about her. But, um, anyway. No, for sure. I mean, it's more of them kind of making some stupid decisions, but. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:36] So, uh, but then he's like, oh my God, take a day off. And, uh, so then he says, you know what? Fine. Or what? Oh, well, you know, we'll do, you know, we'll, we'll take you out. Oh, you, no way. Oh, you want to finally, finally put this to the, to the test. Again, this is something that, uh, I, I love because it is a book thing and they did not provide subtitles for it. Or they did not provide a translation for it.

[00:50:06] Um, as he goes to, as he finally says, Hey, I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to go fight these guys. He says. Dovayande se tovia segan. Which means time to roll the dice. Ah. And, and that's his. And that's his, like, that's, that's his thing. Right.

[00:50:29] And, and, and that is, this is something I specifically went and bought like a needlepoint learner's kit so that I could sew this phrase in the old tongue on like a, on a pillow or on a little needlepoint thing. I haven't learned how to do it yet, but I, I have, I have the needlepoint thing and that is like my end goal is to, is to like have that old tongue phrase time to roll the dice.

[00:50:59] And, uh, like on a needlepoint. Nice. You can do it. It's not very hard. But we'll see. Um, but so anyway, like the, he, you know, takes on Galad and Gwyn. Um, and we were kind of talking about this before we recorded. Like, I was just like, I had to go back and watch this a couple of times because it was so awesome, uh, for me, but like, it starts off like solemn music. And then he like shows that he's got some skill. Yeah.

[00:51:28] And then when he starts to like, it's like, Oh, now I'm like gonna, I'm going to embrace how good I am with this. I'm not immediately getting my butt kicked. Uh, so then like, it kind of goes from like that solemn tones to like an Irish drinking song, uh, instrumental drinking song. And just like something you would hear in a pub and you're like, Oh, and here it comes. And then he just, he hits Gwyn in the face, like knocks him out.

[00:51:58] And then he takes down, uh, Galad, which is as these entitled bastards. Yeah. It, it was, it was really nice to see, especially as much as they have messed with, with Matt either willingly or, or like unknowingly where they were having sex on either side of his room.

[00:52:18] I was glad for Matt that he had a witness that Nynaeve was there because it was such a good moment for him, like getting some of his ego restored after kind of being beaten down last episode. Not that he didn't deserve a little bit of a beating down, but these two were pretty insufferable. Um, and so it was nice to see them put in their place and to see Matt, like build himself back up a little bit and feel a little confident again.

[00:52:46] And I was just happy for him that at least, even though there wasn't the big crowd, um, that the princes had had the day before, like that at least he had Nynaeve there to be impressed and odd at, at that performance. So two marks. Yeah. Each. Which I thought was great. Yeah. And so, you know, Nynaeve came to say goodbye to him, but then he ends up leaving with him.

[00:53:16] And I wondered if his excellent, um, spearman performance is part of what Nynaeve was like, oh, well, maybe it wouldn't hurt to have him along. Like. Well, he very specifically before he ever showed that he's like, no, I'm coming. Like, that's, that's the way that it is. Um. I just wonder if she would have conceded. Conceded so quickly. Would have accepted that. Yeah. Like, you know what? Hey, it's not the worst thing in the world to, uh, do this. Uh, I did. Apparently Nynaeve doesn't like ships.

[00:53:45] Um, is this the only way to get there? It's halfway across the world. I don't even know where we're going. We wouldn't. All right. I guess we're going. And then Min followed them out, uh, which. Yeah. You know what? That's, that's, that's great. I feel like Matt and Min belong together as a, as a duo of sorts. And so I'm glad to see her falling behind. I just think they could get into trouble together quite well. Oh yes. Okay. Um, all right.

[00:54:12] So let's go ahead and do, uh, Tanchiko and then we'll take a quick break. Um, so Tanchiko. Now, not a ton. We didn't see a ton, but there's enough to talk about. And, uh, you know, I want to talk about Leandrin. Yeah. Um, Leandrin. So the, the history that we get here is that, uh, you know, she apparently grew up in Tanchiko,

[00:54:40] uh, where everyone wears veils, like everyone wears veils, men, women, doesn't matter who. Um, and that there was this particular house where apparently it was passed on from father to son where she was, uh, I'm assuming groomed and raped and married sort of. Feels like she kind of kept us like a slave, like a wife slave. Like, yeah.

[00:55:07] So, and you know, she was almost 13. So she was 12 years old when she found out that she was pregnant. So she was, um, being raped well before, maybe not before she was 12, but my thought process is. It sort of sounded like. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so then, and then she was down in that basement, uh, you know, while she was pregnant

[00:55:37] and then she was, you know, she had her baby. She was down there, um, you know, drawing in the chalk and salt. Um, and she, you saw claw marks on the side of the wall and you, I, to me, it seemed like those were from her hands. Yeah. Um, but she, she comes on another ceremony of one of her husband's descendants, um, who is also marrying a young girl. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:06] Um, and like, it was, I was just like, damn. And then she's just like, like, I was kind of like, you know what? All these people supporting it. You know what? I don't feel bad. No. I mean, I thought Leandrim was justified in what she did there. I mean, she's like literally ripped out his heart with the power. Yeah. And, and then she was like, don't hold back. Like, make them suffer. Oh boy. Like that.

[00:56:34] And they didn't, they, they basically just not just execute, but it seemed like painfully executed literally everyone in that room, except for the bride, um, who Naomi saved from whatever injuries she, she had, uh, and memories that she would be plagued with. Um, so, you know, not the worst, not the worst, you know, uh, motive in the world. Yeah. Um, I can't, you know, the, the, the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Yeah.

[00:57:02] Maybe not friend, but, uh, you know, people who people, even if bad people do think bad things to bad people, like you kind of go, okay. You know, I can, I can understand and accept what Leandrim did here and support it. Um, and, but can we just talk about like the styling of Leandrim this episode? Like not just the veil they had her wearing, but I called it her unhinged hair, but you know, her hair was no longer neat.

[00:57:32] It was half braided, but then like frizzy and wild. And it felt, it really matched the energy that was going on this episode with what she was having to go through and, uh, you know, her sort of coming out as, as fully open as a black Aja. I thought it was, uh, just like a cool piece of styling that really felt impactful to me and represented where she was at.

[00:58:01] Her, her outfit, like her red blood red outfit was, was like, Oh, this is where I, where I, where my, my blood, my red outfit. So that I, you know, you can't see the bloodstains. Um, like I, it was, I thought it was, I thought that all of the black Aja's like, uh, fashion was all like, all looked really cool. Um, and then, you know, they obviously like only the ones who I believe that.

[00:58:30] Tanchico is in the country of Terabon because I believe that Leandra is, uh, a terabiter. Uh, at least that's how I say the, the word. Um, and common to, um, in or common to that, that, that area in the books, like the, everybody has small braids in their hair, right? They're, they're, they're all their hairs are braided in very small braids.

[00:58:57] And so the braiding that you saw kind of made sense with the time, just trying to the book. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I, I think I mentioned it, you know, the first couple of seasons, but Robert Jordan, uh, and eventually Brandon Sanderson were very, very vocal in all of their, in detailed in their, their fashion descriptions. And that they, I think they have done an amazing job in the show to like show the differences

[00:59:25] between, uh, fashion in one place to another. No, for sure. It's been very neat. It helps a lot to make when you're not familiar with the people and stuff that there's such distinct styles, right? Like you're going to know someone from the Iolaist very distinctly. Right. Yeah. It's cool. Um, now, uh, we will just go ahead and she, we only, again, we only saw her in a couple of scenes in the horrific, uh, wedding scene, another red wedding.

[00:59:54] Um, and then, uh, we saw her drawing the symbol for her son. And then, uh, the last bit of that was her talking to Naomi or whoever the other black, uh, sister was in there and, um, saying, yep, we're going to call her. Um, once we find the, the, the, the literally the exact same thing that Nainyev said. Yep. Once I find this color, we're going to call her the dragon reborn.

[01:00:23] And Mugheadian is her servant or whatever. Hey, be aware of where the servants are that, uh, or who the servants are and why they're replaced. Oh my gosh. Weird. That was a, uh, weird. That was literally mentioned like in this episode. I say weird, obviously it's not. But just wild. How many, uh, servants are, uh, are actually spies. Right.

[01:00:52] Um, yeah. So like, I think that covers all of Leandrin, but I do want to say, so my friend, Kristen, um, she texted me, she was like, how am I possibly feeling bad for Leandrin? And I kind of like said everything that we just talked about. I was like, well, in the book, she's just a bad person. And we have zero context as to what she's doing and why she's doing it. And now, you know, and I listed all of the horrible things that happened to her.

[01:01:22] Um, you know, it's hard not to sympathize with someone who has gone through that. And, uh, like, so yeah, I, I, I get it. Um, but it's even worse that she had to watch this baby that she basically grew up with. Yeah. Become an old man and die. That's awesome. Exactly. Like, it's just, it's like, you're one companion over the years that was forced upon you.

[01:01:51] Um, you know, you, you know, one of your bosses takes them out, um, in a quote unquote, active pity. It's just, yeah, absolutely. I can see where you would go a little bit crazy as far as that goes. For sure. All right. So we want to take a quick break and then, uh, come in and come back in and wrap up the points. Perfect. All right. We'll be back in a minute.

[01:02:34] Okay. And we are back. Um, all right. So Veronica, your turn for, uh, for the next point. Yeah. Let's go to the two rivers. Okay. Sounds good. I, I didn't love everything that happened to the two rivers. Like I felt like it was like slow and sort of back and forth and I would have just been happier if it moved along a little more quickly maybe. But what I did really love was the opening scene.

[01:03:04] That we got of Perrin in the tree stand. And that is his family's burial ground where we learned that they're buried with, uh, apple blossom seed in their hand. Um, and I thought that was so beautiful. And so then you get this beautiful stand of apple blossom trees. Um, and, um, and, and Perrin is there burying his wedding ring that split in episode one when he was fighting the flying ax. Right.

[01:03:33] Like it came and split his ring. Um, and so he's burying that at the tree that was growing from where his wife had been buried and that he hadn't seen. Um, he, he wasn't even there for her burial. He left, um, the two rivers before she was even buried. So that was the first time he'd seen her final resting spot and where he saw the tree that had grown from there.

[01:03:58] And I just thought in general, that was like a really beautiful idea of these sort of trees growing out of all your loved ones, um, graves. And then we also, in that same scene, we got to understand what was going on a little bit more with Elena or Alana, um, and the makeup that she has on her face under her eyes, which is a mix of the ashes of Yvonne mixed with water and clay.

[01:04:26] Um, and she said that it's their custom to wear that on their face, um, as a second skin until it really soaks in. And I think like metaphorically, right. The, the pain and loss really soaks in. I thought that was also a really beautiful, like, in addition to learning about, um, Perrin's custom, I thought Elena's custom was also a really beautiful way to mourn.

[01:04:53] Um, and she goes on to give a little bit of insight into what's going on with her and, um, her and Maxim after the loss of Yvonne and how, um, you know, she says, I wrote it down, um, sort of the difference between a couple of two and losing one. And, um, and the other person has to carry all that grief, but you sort of know your role in the grief, I guess, and you're navigating it the way that you need to.

[01:05:22] Um, but when one of three departs, who owns that grief? And throughout the episode, we see, again, the struggle with her and Maxim sort of trying to find balance, um, when they've lost who she acknowledged is used to balance them. She said she and Maxim are fire and Yvonne was the one who could sort of temper that fire. Um, it reminded me a lot.

[01:05:48] I think it's a common, I mean, it's just a common thing that people grieve differently. And so anytime you are grieving one person together with another person, there can inherently be some struggle there because people grieve differently.

[01:06:02] And, um, you can almost feel not only like, is there like the misunderstanding and the wanting the other person to understand how you're grieving, but there can also be frustration at the other person that they're not grieving the right way, which is what we saw Maxim sort of accusing Alana of. Um, I think this is, you know, something we see probably more commonly than in this sort of throuple situation.

[01:06:30] It reminded me a lot of like when a couple loses a child and you see this sort of struggle. Um, and so it was definitely like sad, but also like I thought really well done of the show to like, again, like we've, this whole episode was a lot of grief, right? Like we just talked about Leandrin and then now we have Perrin and Alana and, um, Maxim.

[01:06:57] Um, I think this show does grief quite frequently and they do it quite well, like exploring pretty deep parts of grief, I think. So it was pretty neat. I agree with you. Um, I thought that, um, I'm just going to stick with the, with Alana and Maxim. Um, I mean like the, and the grief, uh, like we, we saw Lan, uh, when he lost his brother or not his brother, but like the other, the fellow warder, uh, who he thought he was trying, he was going to save.

[01:07:27] Um, yeah. And, and then you saw Moiraine, Moiraine's face. I think we talked about it that season, like the, just the, the, the feeling that she could feel through the bond with Lan. It was just like both actors were phenomenal in, in that you could just imagine what was happening.

[01:07:48] And here you have, there it was Moiraine feeling what Lan was feeling and almost like understanding it and embracing it and just like almost like echoing it. But where, right here, this is, this is like, you talked about two parents, you know, potentially losing a child and then, um, and then like one's not grieving enough and one's not grieving in the right way or, or whatever.

[01:08:17] Well, imagine your minds were linked and you could feel like you could sense that they couldn't like that. They weren't, they didn't care enough that they couldn't. And, and it was just, it, it, it kind of, it was, to me, it was very profound. And I think that's a really good comparison with the parents losing a child. Um, like I am a person who shuts down.

[01:08:45] Like I, when I, when I grieve or when I am sad or whatever, like I am a person who shuts down. I put up walls and I shut, I put everything into a box and I lock it and I bury it and I never talk about it ever again. Which seems a little more like Alana. Yeah, absolutely. Like she wants to compartmentalize it. She wants to accept it and she's wearing the grief on her face, but that's helping her not wear it inside. Right.

[01:09:09] And then Maxim is like, he's like, I can tell that you, like, I can feel you feeling nothing for Ivan. And her excuse is, well, that's because like, basically they are echo chambers of each other's grief.

[01:09:23] And it's not like Moiraine and Lan, like, yes, Moiraine was sad and whatnot, but like she, like, it's like, hey, I can't, I can't embrace your grief because I can't, I can't have my own grief because I'll like, I'm overcome with yours.

[01:10:09] Mm-hmm. And like, it was just really, really tough. Really, really tough. Yeah. But also, yeah, tough, but also like, I think kudos to the show. Oh, yeah. Very well done. Yeah. And stuff for kind of exploring all these different facets of grief. Yeah. And then I will, one thing about, about Layla's tree, like how long have they been gone?

[01:10:35] Like an apple blossom seed grew from a seed into at least a sapling. Yeah. So it's been a year, year and a half. Like how long have they not been? I feel like that seems right because they had their first whole journey, like got separated, went a whole bunch of different ways, found each other.

[01:11:01] Then Rand went off and then was living in Kyrene for a very, like a pretty, like at least six months, I think. Yeah, a significant amount of time. Yeah. Then they got back together. Then they like fought stuff and, you know, someone, Egwene was held captive and had to go through all that training. Like a lot of stuff did happen. I was sitting there trying to think through it all. It probably had to be at least a year, year and a half.

[01:11:31] And thinking about it, Perrin had to go from Sheenar, which is like, you know, Illinois, whatever, to California in Falm. Like he had to travel that all that way on horseback. So that's months. I mean, and then, and then you have the month long ship ride back from Falm to Tar Valon. Yeah. So yeah, like, and then God knows how long it's been now.

[01:12:00] Like I don't, they just went, they just, you know, Rand and, Rand and company just crossed the spine of the world. So they, on foot, they crossed a mountain range. So. Yeah. So like probably a couple more weeks on top of that. Yeah. So like, yeah, I mean, I guess a year, year and a half would make, would make sense, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, I, I, I agree that that, that, that, that I would agree with everything that you said.

[01:12:26] And the, and I really did like the, like Maxim coming out at the end and just saying a lot of, why are we here? Like what? And because that's the question I have is why is a lot of there? Um, all right. So yeah, those are like that whole, the whole grief aspect of it. I completely agree with you. I thought it was very, very well done. What else?

[01:12:56] I mean, the other things that happened there, the back and forth of will Perrin turn himself into the white cloaks to save Matt's mother and sister? Will he not? Will the villagers support him? Will they not? Felt like a lot of back and forth. We got new characters. I don't really care about Lord Luke.

[01:13:16] Um, I guess we're going to care about who originally introduced themselves as man Darb and then Fael, I guess is what she said at the end. But the young or the not young, but the somewhat small petite woman that was with Lord Luke. Yep. Who says she's searching for the horn of the Lear. So I'm assuming she's going to become important, but it just felt like a lot of like, meet this person, meet this person.

[01:13:44] We don't know why they're here, but they're kind of in charge, but they're not like, I didn't love it. So I'm going to, I'm going to talk about a couple of things that were important to me. Um, I was honestly kind of hoping that you might turn some of these parts around for me that I felt less enthralled with because I just know it's probably lore that I don't know. And I don't understand why it's important yet. So I'm just like, get to the point. No, I hear you. I get you.

[01:14:13] Um, I, I, I'm going to say that I did enjoy the, like, Oh, you know, Mandarb is like my friend's horse. So you taking that name is pretty funny. Um, I thought he was going to say something, not his friend's horse. Um, I think she thought that too. Yeah. Watch your words carefully or determine your next words carefully. Um, but so we, we've got a couple of things here, right?

[01:14:41] So the white cloaks are there and they kind of like we talked about last week or last episode, they are there because two rivers. Um, and they went to the two rivers to find Perrin. Um, so it wasn't like a mistake or whatever. It wasn't like, you know, they are definitively there to find Perrin. Um, and, um, and to take him in and make him pay for the death of, of, uh, Jeff, Jeffrey Bornhold.

[01:15:07] Uh, you see Dane, uh, his son. Um, and he's like, he looks rough. Like he looks run down. Um, he, he's like not shaved. Um, like you look at the difference between him and Valda and it's like, whoa, like crazy. Like, so basically he's like, Hey, you know, Natty Cawthon's like, I'm, I'll die before you touch them.

[01:15:32] Um, and my, my, like my thought in my head, I was like, I mean, as you wish, like, okay. The questioners will get whatever answers like under duress doesn't exist, um, for the questioners. Um, I will say that, um, yeah, like, so Valda has said like, Hey, you murdered your father in cold blood. Well, it wasn't really cold blood.

[01:16:01] Like you just didn't know what the context of his, of his mindset was at that time. Um, and so like, again, I understand the white cloak viewpoint of it. Hey, he just called a wolf. That doesn't matter. Like it's just an animal. Um, but you don't understand that. Um, and then I will say that that last, um, I didn't think it was funny that Bane and Chied were like trying to get Loyal to play Maiden's Kiss.

[01:16:29] And then, and then, and they're like, Oh, Hey, Maxim. Not, no, not going to happen. Like it's the blood of my, the only man I've ever loved. And like, Oh, that's heavy. All right. Well, we'll go find somebody else then. Um, or the most significant interaction would be that final interaction between, uh, file or file and, uh, and parent. And is that a plan or hope or a hope?

[01:16:57] Uh, if you, if you want to lead, then you need both. And he goes, I don't. And that led me back to the end of last episode where Matt was saying, I'm no hero. And Swan says, the heroes that we talk about are, Hey, I just do what I need to do.

[01:17:20] The people that I talk about aren't, they, they aren't people who were heroic or whatever, because they wanted to be heroic. They were just people who wanted to do, who did what they needed to do in order to protect their family, protect their friends, protect, to do whatever it is that needed to happen. And the, the, the parallel between, Hey, I don't want to lead. And in my head, I hear somebody say somewhere, the best people to lead are ones who don't want to, to do it.

[01:17:49] Uh, people, the people who are best suited for power are the ones who don't want it. Um, and so that made me go, Hmm. Um, we just talked about this. Um, I did like a couple of things. Uh, so send we, the, uh, the old man who was like, Oh, just give them, give them to the white cloaks. And then, so I, I believe that it was the character's name and they didn't like bring it up on the show or anything, but like, I believe her name is Dace Conger.

[01:18:17] And she is one of the women who was beating a trolloc to death. When back in like episode one on the attack on Beltine, like it's when the group of, of farm folk started pitchforking the trollocs. She was one of the ones that was like, Oh, perfect. Oh, you don't, you don't want to mess with us.

[01:18:39] Um, uh, I thought that Perrin's reaction to, yes, I'm searching for the horn of Valir and his giggle or his chuckle at that. It's like, Oh yeah, I've heard of it. Uh, that was, that was pretty funny. I have a picture of it in my pocket, my friend holding it. Right. Um, so, but yes, so the, the plan seems to be, Hey, we're all going to fortify the two rivers.

[01:19:04] We're going to make the like half dozen or 20 houses in here. We're going to build more. We will turn this into a real town as opposed to a green, you know, surrounded by a half dozen buildings. Um, all the farmers will pull together, uh, and we will make this a place to defend ourselves as opposed to a, uh, right for the picking.

[01:19:34] Mm-hmm. So I do not have anything to make you less upset or less frustrated by the, uh, the, the lack of speed at this storyline, but. It's okay. That's been my constant complaint with Perrin, I think, because I do like him and I think I like want to like see things happen for him. And I've been consistently frustrated really since season one with the pacing for advancing his storyline.

[01:20:03] But I get like, we can't have everything all happen at once. Like we've got, like you said, like 20 characters going through major, um, character developments. It's okay for Perrin's story to play out a little more slowly, but I'm just impatient. I get it. I do. I, I do understand the, the frustration at the speed or lack thereof. Um, you have anything else for, uh, anything else for two rivers? That's it.

[01:20:33] So I think that takes us to. Yep. This takes us to the Ayo, Ayo waste. Yeah. All right. So again, not a ton happens. Um, a couple of new characters, um, a couple of new, you know, almost like plot lines or connections or, or whatever.

[01:20:54] Um, so the, the stuff that I have for the, uh, for this section is like I said, it's not a ton, but so they, we learned some more about the, the Ayo. So they, we learned that, uh, water has been, you know, fought over and killed over more than gold in the, the waste. Um, water is more valuable than gold.

[01:21:24] Um, and access to it is, is a big thing. Uh, whomever killed the Tinkers. Um, I don't know if they ever landed on an actual thing. If it was like, it was a sword or it was a spear made to look like a sword and, oh no, I know Ayo would do this over the Shido. So now we know there, we have the Tardad clan and the Shido clan, um, which I'm assuming they have a blood feud. Okay.

[01:21:49] Well, I'm assuming that, uh, that means they will like fight each other the instant that we see each other. I thought it was sort of silly that they were like, who could have done this? No Ayo would have possibly done this. Oh wait, but there is that other group that has like a blood feud with them. Maybe it was, um, I just thought that was like, okay, but we didn't like suggest that first. So we, we haven't gotten a name for the Dreamwalker, even in subtitles, it just says Dreamwalker.

[01:22:16] Uh, but we did get the, oh, I, myself and Malayne are the only Dreamwalkers in the Tardad clan or in the Ayo or something like that. Um, so we did get the chiefs and wise ones, right? Those seem to be the, the, the male and female leaders of the Ayo. Um, uh, the Tinkers were killed, uh, but the only thing more dishonorable than being a Tinker is killing a Tinker.

[01:22:43] Um, like it, you, it's dishonorable to not defend yourself, but it's even more dishonorable to kill someone who won't defend themselves. Yeah. Um, uh, then whomever this woman is telling, uh, Egwene, hey, you know, if you're getting bruises in Teleron Riyadh, like. That's not a dream. That's someone hurting you. And so whoever that is, is alive.

[01:23:08] And so I feel like if she tells Moiraine that, like Moiraine would be like, oh yeah, Lanphir is, uh, like really skilled in the Dreamworld. And maybe Ran's still meeting with her in her, in his dreams or whatever. And like, um, if we only talk to each other, maybe we'll find some stuff out. That would be crazy. Crazy.

[01:23:27] Um, and then we talk about Ruidian, uh, and we've heard about Ruidian, but it is where wise ones and clan chiefs go to like become accepted or face whatever trials they have. Mm-hmm. Um, um, land being super uncomfortable in the sweat tent. That was really, really funny. He's like, oh my God, every time they, they do this. Jeez. Um, oh, I'm adding.

[01:23:53] And then like the, the one wise one, uh, the, the other vocal wise one, like, like looks at them and be like dumps more water on the rocks. She's just like, oh, eat it girl, child. I think she called her child. She called Blaine Rain child. Like Blaine's in her hundreds or something.

[01:24:14] And, um, so, and then, so the, the two, I will say the two most significant interactions, um, that we got, uh, Rand and Lanphir.

[01:24:29] And I think this is what the Amazon description was talking about, uh, Lanphir playing at a dangerous game, talking about murdering the dark one, uh, that, Hey, with Kalandor, a male channeling through Kalandor and, uh, and a female channeling through whatever this song Griel is. I wrote it down as the Sakarnam.

[01:24:52] Um, if they could possibly destroy the dark one and that way I would be free with my dark oaths and, oh, but no, I shouldn't have said anything. Uh, so like, I think she's learning from the, the idea that, that Rand, if she like pushes for something, Rand won't do it. But if it comes out and, oh no, I shouldn't have said something about it. Maybe he would like put that in his head and, uh, let it seed its way seeds of shadow.

[01:25:22] Um, and he, she's also, I feel like taking advantage of his naivete of like that. He'll believe that her end goal is really just, she wants to be free to just be with him, you know, like it almost seems like. He didn't question that enough, you know? Yeah, no, I get that.

[01:25:43] Um, and then I will say the other one that we, the other significant, um, interaction we got was towards the end, uh, Melindra, uh, the wise one who. I'm just going to be very misogynistic and I'm saying we saw our first boobs. Um, so Melindra, uh, the wise one, uh, apparently had the golden crane of Malkia, uh, tattooed on her back.

[01:26:08] Uh, which makes me wonder, cause she was only a child when that, you know, when, when it was overgrown by the blight. And it makes me wonder, does Lan also have the golden crane of Malkia on his back? I feel like we've seen him without a shirt on and. I don't think he does. So like. We've seen him without a shirt. It just makes me wonder, oh, Aiel don't have tattoos. Well, does that mean that every Malkia person did? Even young children? Um, maybe she did it because it was important to her. Like I just.

[01:26:38] If you were basically. Yeah, maybe she got it later. Yeah, maybe, maybe she was like raised as an Aiel that, oh, Aiel don't have tattoos. But oh, I don't want to remember. I don't want to forget where I came from. So I'll put this picture on my back that I never see, um, to remind me of where I come from. Uh, but you know, one of the things she said was I would break my spears today, which makes me think that she is a maiden of the spear. Um, maybe she's a wise one. Maybe she made a spear. Maybe they're the same thing. I don't know.

[01:27:07] Um, but. Uh, I would break my spears today. If you raise the flag, you wear your father's sword. Have you forgotten your. And then she called him something to the effect of. On the line or something like that. Um, and I, I know that that is like his title, but I like his like old tongue title, but I cannot for the life of me. I remember what that means. And I decided not to Google stuff. I'm just relying on whatever fault of knowledge is in my head.

[01:27:37] Uh, when I'm pulling this out of, um, so. I thought it was interesting. They've really been revving up this season. Like reminding us that land is, um, of a royal, like of a royal line. Yep. Because they mentioned it when he went and got his sword. They mentioned it when he gave the ring to Nineve. And now we've got this again.

[01:28:02] Um, and I guess now, you know, having those conversations with Nineve about it two episodes ago, I think was an important setup for this happening. Cause if this had happened just now, I would have been like, wait, what? I would have kind of forgotten as a non book reader that there was sort of this whole important history for land. Well, it's funny. In my mind, he's just the impressive order for Moiraine. Right.

[01:28:31] You forget that he has this whole independent storyline. It's funny. It's funny. Like you, we say, oh, well, if we, that hadn't happened to me, that's just good writing. Like that's just good. Right. No, I mean, I assumed it was intentional. No. Yeah. And I don't, don't mean to, no, I don't mean to. It's just like that you're right. And I think that in a poorly written show, this, something might just come out of nowhere and be like, oh, wait. Yeah.

[01:28:59] They mentioned that two seasons ago and we were supposed to remember to, um, you know, and, but then as you were like hearing it, uh, when it happens, like IE the conversation with Nineveh and, uh, the, the ring and all that, like, as you're watching it, you're not like, this is, oh, this is leading up to something else. You're just like, oh. Because they didn't like, it's not like there's a bunch of exposition about it. Like it fit. It didn't stick out to me that this was a big reminder. Right. Right. Yeah.

[01:29:28] It wasn't like, oh, hey, remember this thing that we talked about back in the day? Like, no, they made it really, really organic, or at least I feel it was really, really organic. And, uh, and, and I, I like it. Uh, and, and again, maybe you don't notice it as a casual watcher of the show, but it's much appreciated for people like us who really kind of dig deep into this stuff and, uh, and try to appreciate what they're trying to tell us, what they're trying to hint at.

[01:29:55] And what, you know, all of the things are. For sure. But that's, that's all I had in the, the AEO waste. Yeah. I think that, that got everything for me too. Okay. So man, that finishes our points. Um, and I think that I've actually, I don't have, I think I actually have any, any notes. Um, me neither.

[01:30:24] That was my notes are completely highlighted. All right. So, uh, let's go ahead and move on to feedback. Um, yeah. So we, we had a couple, couple on our, on our Facebook posts. Uh, I'm, I'm going to, we don't know what the next episode is called, so I can't like put a post up for it, but I'm gonna be like episode four or episode five, whatever. And hopefully we'll get a little bit more feedback. Um, but, uh, we did get a couple of comments. You want to take that first one? Yeah.

[01:30:54] So we heard from our good friend, Sam Lowe, who said, Lord Gabriel is a forsaken. I legit gasped at the reveal in episode three and he manipulates minds. That's why Leanne didn't remember his name in the episode before he had to work his compulsion on her. What? So basically I had the exact same reaction as Sam. Uh, the forsaken are easily the most fascinating new characters for me. I do miss Ishmael.

[01:31:23] I, I can see that. Like the, the forsaken are fair. Especially cause we only get little hints. Right. I just want to know what they all can do. Like each of them, like their powers are scary and impressive. And I wanted to understand all of them. Um, she goes on to say Leandrin's return home was interesting. Her origin was heartbreaking to hear and also made so much sense. She is such a complex character. So yeah, I think we definitely agree with that. 100%.

[01:31:50] Like it is, I think they're doing an excellent job filling in maybe holes from the book that you didn't get that, that aspect. Uh, but I think, I think that they are really doing a good job at making practically everybody a complex character who, especially people who do bad things. Right. Yeah.

[01:32:13] Um, it's never, it's, it's never hard to root for the good guy that does all the right things and you just want to win. Uh, it's hard to make an argument for someone who does horrible things. And those are the most fun characters to, uh, maybe fun's not the right word, but those are the most interesting characters to, to have empathy for or to fight empathy for. For sure. For sure. All right.

[01:32:41] We had one more comment, uh, from Leilani Bales. I've only watched the first two so far, but I'm loving the way they've translated so many book elements into something new and different that somehow captures the essence of the books. I absolutely agree. And, uh, Robin is so interesting here and Robin as a reminder is Gabriel. Um, so yes, I, I agree.

[01:33:04] Like I, they, I think that, I think that I, one of the things that I think I want to know is what are each of like, we understand that Lanfear basically can't die. Uh, she has like black stuff coming over her eyes and she, uh, uh, uh, Robin is apparently very, very, very much. very good with compulsion. Melchideon may be the weakest of them in the power, but she's super, super sneaky. And she can apparently create like suck souls from bodies and, you know,

[01:33:34] make gray men. It makes me wonder what else she can create. If, if she can do that. And so, yeah, I completely agree, but thanks for, for giving us feedback. I will, like I said, I will put up a post for the, for episode four and then coming episodes a little bit further in advance. So we can actually, now that we're going week by week, it should be easier. It should be a little bit easier.

[01:34:05] And, but beyond that, that is our show. Thanks for listening, everybody. And I appreciate you guys taking the time to like, I feel like this is going to end up being, been like six hours of the first three episodes. But I, like you said, Veronica, it's so dense. There's so much going on, even with slow storylines. Um, but, uh, if you'd like to write in or record a message, uh, and send it in,

[01:34:34] you can email it to talk at podcasting.com. And you can check out our Facebook page and jump in the conversation there. If you visit facebook.com slash podcast. Next time on this podcast, the wheel of time season three, episode four, no title known. I went looking for it. I tried, I could not find it. Um, but, uh, yeah, it is, uh, pretty wicked. And then I'm hoping to have news, uh,

[01:35:03] in here next time this weekend. We just wanted to get all three episodes out of the way, get them podcast, podcasted on. Um, and so we'll have a little bit more news. Uh, and if we aren't already talking for an hour and 45 minutes, then we will include some of it. But if, but whatever feedback we get, we will definitely include. Awesome. Well, all right. That's our show. Let the dragon right again on the winds of time.