24. "The Shadow in the Night" (The Wheel of Time S3E6)

[00:00:05] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Greg. I'm Veronica. And I'm Kristen. And this is the Wheel of Time cast. This week we're covering The Wheel of Time, Season 3, Episode

[00:00:31] 6, The Shadow of the Night. And as you guys happen to hear, my friend Kristen is joining us this week. Welcome, Kristen. Hi, thank you. I know that we have had a conversation about you being on an episode sometime this season. I know we basically have text threads back and forth like the morning of the episode because I can't wait to talk about it with somebody. And I figured

[00:00:57] you were a pretty reasonable person to have on. I really appreciate the fact that you were willing to come on and talk. Yeah, absolutely. I've kind of been jealous of the fact that I haven't been on the show yet because my husband was on, like, I think he was on the Flame of Tar Valon episode. And ever since, I'm like, well, when do I get to go? So it's finally

[00:01:21] happened, my moment in the sun. So I know that, like we've had longer discussions about this, but like what's your history with The Wheel of Time? Yeah, so I tried to remember yesterday when the first time I read these books was. And I can't remember exactly when the first time was, but it was like mid 2000s. And I've reread the books three times since then. But the problem with

[00:01:49] that is I kind of have this different perspective between the two of you. Like Greg, you have this super detail-oriented mind about the books and Veronica, you've never read them. But I'm like right in the middle. I'm a book reader with a shitty memory. And so I don't remember all of the detail things. I just have this global memory of the book. And, you know, so I have this perspective where when I'm watching the show, I'm like, wait, did that really happen? And then I have to go and read

[00:02:17] my companion. And I'm like, okay, no, it didn't. So let me see how this goes and plays out. But I have a more global view of the books while I'm watching the show, which I like. I like that perspective. Because I don't want to sit there and nitpick all the little things that weren't in the books that are or were in the books that are not now in the show. So yeah, so I've read the books three times. I watch every episode at least three times because I work from home and I have the ability

[00:02:46] to just keep them on while I'm working. So my boss probably wouldn't like to hear that, but it's what I do. So yeah, I really love the story. It's one of the few fantasy series that I've been able to get all the way through. You know, I've tried to read, you know, Tolkien before and I just can't make myself do it. So yeah, so I really, really do enjoy the books, but I'm really, really loving the show

[00:03:15] and I'm very excited to get to talk about it with y'all. I think one of the things they've done well here is they've kind of distilled down a lot of the show or a lot of the book and gotten kind of to meaty points and then also expanded points that you didn't get in the book, which I absolutely, I think I've said it on here a number of times. I love it. You're adding perspective that I never would have seen or gotten to see. And I think it's great. I agree.

[00:03:43] I feel like a little jealous. I do feel like as a non-book reader, even though they've distilled it, it's such a complicated world with so many characters that I feel like that book knowledge, I think I would have delved into them by now if I wasn't doing the podcast and like really wanting to experience the story as it lays out in the show. But I think whenever the show is finally over,

[00:04:09] I'm going to have to read the books because it just seems like such a rich world and I want to like know it more. Yeah, I can appreciate that. I was actually thinking about this. So Rafe Judkins had mentioned that they were saying, hey, we think that the story we want to tell is going to be eight seasons and that and it's basically two years between seasons. So that means in about 10 years,

[00:04:35] you'll be able to read the books. I know. I just this last week was thinking that through because I think in my head, I was thinking like, you know, four or five seasons when we were talking about this at the beginning of season two. And now I'm like, man, I'm really gonna have to wait a long time. But I think it'll be a good payoff. And you know that like sadness you get when a show you love is over. Like I'll be able to buffer that by the promise of the books.

[00:05:04] Now I get to go experience the more intense, maybe not actually I'll say let the less intense, but more prolonged experience of the books. Yeah. All right. So Veronica, how about you hit us with the ridiculously vague Amazon summary? Okay, hold on guys. Tensions flare between Aguine and Rand. Moiraine and Lan come to terms with their

[00:05:28] destiny. Very confused about when Lan did any sort of really or Moiraine did any sort of coming to terms with their destiny. I think Lan didn't even have a line in this episode. No, he was just in the background, you know, smoldering a couple of shots. But other than that. I mean, he can smolder for me. I'm good with that. He can. Oh, absolutely. I'm not complaining.

[00:05:56] But yeah, I think maybe they just whoever wrote this didn't watch the episode. I don't know. Come on, Amazon. This is your own show. I'm gonna I'm gonna my elaborations on that. So Nanyave and company work to seek out the Black Asia and Tantico. And I say and company because it's like five main characters. Matt meets an old man. Egwene faces off with Lanfear in her dreams. And then Rand faces an impossible

[00:06:22] choice situation. I wasn't sure what word to put there. But it was that was a that was a tough scene. And I will say that I enjoyed this episode. I might have enjoyed it more than the last one. But I think that since everything's gonna be compared to Road to the Spear, it's it's hard

[00:06:45] for me to be like, Oh, well, I didn't enjoy it as much or whatever. Like it's there's only going to be one favorite episode. And that's going to be it for the rest of the series in my I think. And and I think that they just have so much great things going for that particular episode that every other episode is gonna it's it's a it's a hard shadow to come out from

[00:07:08] under. All right. So Veronica, you have some questions? I do. Okay, my first question, kind of actually a two parter. Maybe I'm cheating a little bit because I couldn't think of a third question. And I need it to be three. But hang with me. So I couldn't remember all the specifics

[00:07:27] of like, the status of the Forsaken, and specifically, is Shamael after the last time the dragon fell. Okay, they were all sealed away. I believe that Ishmael was the last one sealed. And for whatever reason, he was able to touch the world via dreams. And, and that's how he was able to connect with

[00:07:55] Perrin and Rand and Matt. And that's how I believe that he connected with Leandron, because that definitely confused me too. But then the flickering of Ishmael in that scene at the very end of the cold open, that made me go, Oh, this is he's touching her, he's reaching out to her in her dreams. And, you know, he this is his way of guiding her through whatever her trials are of her becoming.

[00:08:25] And we'll get to Leandron. But that was like, why do I empathize? It's just it's so hard. It's so hard. Okay, well, I felt like a total dummy, because now it seems so obvious that she was asleep. And that was the dream. And I even saw him flicker. And it just like, my brain did not process what that was. She obviously fell asleep against that statue. And in her dream saw him. But I was like, wasn't he supposed to have been locked away? Like, I don't

[00:08:55] what did I forget about the timeline? So, so Veronica, don't feel like a dummy. Because in my like, on my notes, the first thing I wrote was like, wait, how was he out 95 years ago, the seal was and I was and it took me about 30 seconds, I think to realize, oh, wait, that's, that's why that's how got it. Okay, so I had the same thought as you did. Okay, well, that was my impressive two part

[00:09:20] question that you very easily squared away. What was the second part? No, the well, I was saying is Shamayal was one part because in my head, I was like, was the Shamayal like broken out first, and then the Forsaken came the rest of the Forsaken? No, okay, so even my Chia, it being a two-parter didn't work. Okay, my other question is, do many of the Aes Sedai have specialized powers like it seemed

[00:09:48] Naomi did? I mean, I know that they have things that they're better at depending on which Aja they're in. But like, it seemed like she could do something pretty unique that like other Aes Sedai couldn't. And how common is that? And have we seen it in the show? And I'm just forgetting? I would say that yes, there are. This was actually mentioned in one of the comments

[00:10:10] last week about Alana possibly knowing how to travel. Is that is that some like they will have individualized ways that they identified how to touch the power or ways to utilize the power for whatever they were doing when they developed or when their spark came out. And so it was obvious, you know, I'm going to say obviously, but Leandrin developed a self-defense mechanism of this

[00:10:40] this gun hole or this gun spike or whatever that basically you could just assassinate someone from very close. And then I think that the same thing, like you mentioned, like Naomi, you know, she had her own, she had her own stuff that she was experimenting with. And then Leandrin took it and started experimenting with it as well. And I would say that, that a lot of those individual things

[00:11:09] because, because the power, sorry, because the white tower is such a political place, they don't share those things because they don't want someone else to, or they don't want to lose their advantage or they don't want for someone else to be able to use their tools against them. Makes sense. So I would say most people do. Most, most, I said, I would have something that they had developed on

[00:11:35] their own, um, that they have just kind of fine-tuned or whatever. Um, and that, that we, I don't think that we've seen anything in particular besides Naomi, but, um, this was a very definitive, Hey, she used it. We saw her use it when she first started using the power. And then we saw her use it again this episode.

[00:12:00] Cool. I hope I see more. I think it's just kind of a cool thing to see them getting to do special stuff like that. Those were definitely things that they did in the books where it'd be like, Oh, this person knows how to do whatever. Um, and Oh, I got that. I thought that was like an age of legends things only, or, or I thought that knowledge had been lost. Um, all right. You good on your questions? Yep.

[00:12:27] Okay. So we're going to add a quick, a quick section, uh, corrections, AKA my memory is just as shitty as, as Kristen. Um, so. Maybe an eyes to die secretly targeted you, Greg. You don't know. That's fair. Um, so, uh, from the road to the spear, I, I was like, I remember that, that I was like, maybe it was this, was this, this, this time or that

[00:12:54] time or whatever. And Davey Elmer, uh, responded with, Hey, uh, a few things I wanted to mention in total Rand's experience experienced is events that span 3,520 years of history. Like, Oh my God, that's okay. So that's, that's cool. The Aiel who broke the roads and went South were ancestors to, to the Tuatuan. Um, when, uh, Joan, I, you know, she said, Hey, we're going

[00:13:21] to go South. And Joan, I was like, well, we're going to go on to find a place to plant the tree and build a city. And then Chard, who was the final one, um, that, uh, watched the, and I, I actually went back and when I went back and reread it, it was watched the institution that Lanfear was in. So he was, that was the bore that was boring into the dark ones prison.

[00:13:45] The breaking happened a number of years later. Um, I don't have specifics on that, but, uh, I'm sure that some of the wheel of time fan sites could absolutely tell you precisely how many years were between each. And then, uh, one thing I'd mentioned flicker, uh, in, in those, uh, in, in that chapter and flicker was something else. I don't specifically remember what it was, but I

[00:14:11] very definitively remember flicker in a text, like between paragraphs as it changed situations. But I went back and read those chapters and flicker was not in there. So my bad. All right. You guys, uh, have anything else you guys want to cover before we take a quick break? Not I. All right. Sounds good. Uh, we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back.

[00:14:36] All right. And we're back. Uh, all right. So we're going to go ahead and get directly into our points. Kristen, as our guest, uh, I'll go ahead and give you the first of your choice of what, what do you want to talk about first?

[00:15:05] So it's really hard to make a decision because I really enjoyed so many things about this episode, but for some reason I am just hooked on Leandrin's character now because she's so much different from the, not so much different, but her backstory is different than the book. Like we didn't really get that in the books. So I've really been enjoying seeing how they're developing

[00:15:34] her and it doesn't excuse anything. Of course, she's still like sold children into slavery, but, um, it makes me feel a little, like you were saying before, like it makes me feel a little bit more empathetic toward her and understand why she is the way she is. So I would love to talk, um, about Leandrin. So of course that's the cold open and, you know, we see her and she's,

[00:15:58] you know, just given birth recently. I think they may have tried to pass that off as a newborn, but that is a very large newborn. Um, so, and I mean, I had large kids, both of my kids were 10 pounds and that baby was significantly larger. So I don't know like what the timing was. Um, but, uh, but I, you, you open on this, you know, young girl with this baby and she's terrified obviously.

[00:16:25] And then, uh, her abuser comes in with his henchman or whatever. And, uh, she just goes like her emotions during this scene. She just goes from, you know, hope and despair back and forth and back and forth so many times in such a short timeframe. Um, you know, when she's, you know, cuddling with him and, and she names a Ludrin, she's hopeful. And then he comes in and you can see the fear in her

[00:16:53] eyes. And then she just starts killing people. And then she's angry and curb stomps him like she's stomping grapes and, you know, and then she's hopeful because she gets out and she runs out into the city and then despair settles in again because literally no one will help her. They call her names, they push past her, uh, and to see her just kind of collapse at the knees of the shackled man

[00:17:22] statue and fall asleep. Uh, you know, as a mom, I'm looking at this child essentially, and I just felt absolutely horrible for everything that she had been through up to that point. Um, so like I said, I don't condone her current behavior because she evil, but I do understand a little bit more.

[00:17:45] And I do understand how she was able to so easily go to the dark because Ishamel comes to her in the dream and it's literally the only person in her life who has ever decided to help her. And he becomes more of a, I said parental figure before earlier in a conversation and I was kind of not corrected, but he said hero. So like Ishamel is more of like her hero and someone that she looks up to. So of course

[00:18:12] she's going to want to be like him. And so I, I really liked the cold open scene this time because we get a little bit more of a look into her character, um, and kind of understand why she does the things that she does. Yeah. I mean, I think it just reframed her for me and it makes it more difficult

[00:18:37] to just put her in that box of bad because she was so young. It wasn't like she was already an Aes Sedai or even had an idea probably of what being an Aes Sedai even meant or probably even really much awareness of light versus dark. All she knew was like darkness and abuse and pain. And then finally someone came to help her for the first time. Like, of course that's who she's going to side

[00:19:04] with. Right? Like I agree. It doesn't excuse her adult behavior hurting other people now. And it, it makes her complex character. Can I offer a counterpoint? I agree with everything that you guys said. I agree that we, that, that this makes, gives you more empathy and it gives you an easier time

[00:19:33] to understand why she did the things that she did. I think it makes her a less complex character. And the reason that I say that is that a person who is the only person who ever helped her at a horrific time in her life happened to be the dark, right? It happened to be this person who, you know,

[00:19:58] her, her savior effectively was this person. So the only thing that she knows is that person's tutelage besides rape and forced, uh, in, in, indentured servitude or, you know, torture. Um, if she was Moiraine, right, raised in a noble household and in the middle of Kyrene and the day stay Mar and

[00:20:25] the great game, and then something happened, I, I think that that would make her, that would be like the complex, like trying to understand why she is the way she is this actually, and to me, this kind of simplified her character. And I'm, again, I'm not saying that, that either of you are wrong. I'm just saying that in my opinion, my viewpoint on it is that it makes you go, okay, you know what?

[00:20:48] This is how she was raised. And the, the one person who ever helped her is like, and now she, she, he was her contact for the rest of her life. He was her mentor. And so it, it makes it easier to root for her or rather it makes it harder to root against her, except that we do see, like, for me, it's easier because Kate Fleetwood, I haven't seen any redeeming qualities in Kate Fleetwood's face.

[00:21:18] Um, but this little girl knowing that the character is the same, it, it makes it, it may kind of go, okay, that's where she started and where she ended or where she has gotten to. Um, I feel really, really bad for that little girl. I really don't feel bad for adult Leandrin who's doing all these horrific things. I see what you're saying. I mean, it makes it more simple to understand her, um, like what drives

[00:21:45] her, but I think it makes it more complex when you're thinking about her character in your head, I guess. And I think some of the things she did this week in the, even in the current timeline still just showed me that she's that same hurt child. I mean, she, it wants selected parts. She spent everything up until the last season, her whole

[00:22:11] life, protecting this child, doing everything she could for him and then lost him. And now all she wants more than anything is to forget him, I think, because she's carrying the pain of all of that. And I think, yeah, she's more simplified in that. Like, I understand exactly where her motivations come from now. And like, I just have a harder time of what to do with her in my head and heart, I guess.

[00:22:41] I guess that I, I, I, sometimes I fall directly on one side of the other. I go, someone's good or someone's bad. Um, I can empathize with someone's backstory, but I can go, Oh, fuck her. Like how fucking horrible she is. That's ridiculous. Um, but, but no, that's, that's a, that's a very fair point. I think that's just kind of the difference of how different people interpret those characters and feel those characters and the, the emotions and

[00:23:09] empathy for them. Yeah. And I do think that, you know, her redeeming, you said before, she had no redeeming qualities, but obviously caring for her at that point, 95 year old son, um, you know, that's, that's a redeeming, that shows selflessness, even though it's a little selfish, it still shows that she's caring for him and trying to do the best by him. But I also think

[00:23:33] that she started to do that with Nynaeve, even though she was motivated to bring her to the dark, obviously. So again, she was selfishly motivated, but I, I really do think that Leandrin cared for Nynaeve and vice versa, honestly, if we're, you know, for being serious about it, but, um, because Nynaeve has, has said some things about Leandrin that show that she has empathy toward her,

[00:24:01] even though she obviously hates her because of what she did. Um, but I, I do think that there is that, there is that spark in her, I guess, to actually be a decent human being, probably because she's been around other decent human beings for Nynaeve. Well, I guess she's what, 105 or 107 years old. Um, she's been exposed to decent people. So she knows what they're supposed to act like. So you do

[00:24:28] see these like little glimmers every once in a while of her actually being a decent human being. So one of the things that did kind of confuse me here is that I believe that Lanfear told Leandrin, like, I know why you took your oaths and he's just holding you back and all that. And I had interpreted that it was because to save her son. And it was, I mean, I guess it kind of was to save

[00:24:52] her son because he would have died had she had no help. But I was thinking like once he got sick, as opposed to right after, or maybe months after he was born. Um, but I, I go back to the idea that she was like, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13. Like, I can't fathom that little girl was any more than 12.

[00:25:16] If that. I think I remember someone saying, and I may be misremembering because the whole memory thing, but I think I remember someone saying that she was 12. Yeah. I feel like she might've said something right before the massacre at the, at the little estate. Um, but, uh, no, it was like, she was definitively younger than the girl that was being

[00:25:41] married, um, at the estate. But no, I, I, those are all very valid points. And, um, do you want to talk about anything else during current events? Well, so the only other Leandrin point, just because it flows right from the cold open into another scene with her where she's in her dream and sitting

[00:26:05] in the hall on the Amarillyn seat, uh, where Lanfear comes to see her. But, and I watched it four, well, five times technically, I guess. But when that scene opens, there is someone standing off to the right in the shadows. And I don't think it was Lanfear because Lanfear was dressed all in silver

[00:26:27] on the top. And I think it might've been Mo Gideon watching her in her dream. Uh, but I could never see anything. I mean, I brightened the TV all the way up and I got this close. You can't see me because I'm on a podcast. I got three inches, you know, away from the, away from the TV. And I still could not see who that was, but there was definitely somebody watching her in her dream. And I'm 95%

[00:26:55] sure it was not Lanfear because when you first see her, she's up in the gallery, like looking down on her. So I think Mo Gideon was in the shadows watching Lanfear and her, or excuse me, watching Leandrin in her dream. I would like to address, uh, her, her, what we have established is now her final goal, um, that she wants

[00:27:18] to be raised to one of the forsaken. Um, and this is an interesting point. Like Ishmael is gone. Um, is this a thing that can happen? Did Ishmael tell her that, you know, forsaken could be raised, you know, Hey, do your job, keep going, do, you know, do right by the dark Lord. And, uh, and you know,

[00:27:43] you may be raised when we finally do get free. Um, I'll put it a good word for you with the boss. Yeah. I do think that's a campaign promise though, because the, the girl, um, the girl, uh, that attacked and forgive me, I can't remember her name. The girl that attacked, uh, Rand and Matt, when Tom came to save them, who was a dark friend, she was like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm going to be one of the chosen when I deliver the dragon reborn. So I do think that that's a campaign

[00:28:11] promise that they use, whether or not it ever gets fulfilled is questionable. But I do think that that's something that the dark friends are told and, and just that carrot dangling off the stick to get them to do the bidding of the forsaken in the dark one. Yeah. And bring spring, um, with that wonderful shift from the blood in the puddle to the mountains. It was like, I know we were marked on it, uh, during that episode, but man, I was, I really enjoyed,

[00:28:41] her character arc and her definition of what she like, Hey, we're born in dirt. We're raised in dirt. We die in dirt. No one cares. I just want to break the wheel. I want to stop the pain. I'm like, Oh man, like that is, that is a wonderful, um, summary of where someone could turn to the dark. The other things that she did is she was ordered to go find the bracelet, you know, find

[00:29:07] whoever the traitor, I guess. And this kind of leads into like forsaken stuff and kind of the infighting between them. Um, so we can, we can save that point a bit, but she was ordered to, you know, find out who the traitor, whoever was working for a different forsaken or chosen. And, uh, we'd find that is Naomi, but then also possibly is fan because she was also, you know,

[00:29:34] I don't know if Naomi had her little click. So, uh, so she was killed. I didn't understand how, and maybe I missed it and you guys can clear it up for me, but how did she know that it was Naomi who was, I was just saying the only thing I noted that she said, and I felt like Landrum was already decided on killing her before she said it, but was that she

[00:29:58] had powerful friends, which to me is an indication that if you're a black osha, the only other, more powerful friend to have would have been a forsaken. So that logic could lead her there. But I felt like Leandra already knew it was her before that. And I didn't know if I was missing some tell that happened. Like I tried to watch her face when she went and talked to all the other

[00:30:21] black osha about the, um, collar and bracelets, but I didn't notice anything. So I, I have a thought about that. Um, up until now, after they've gotten to Tanchico, Naomi has been the one doing all of the research and having all of the knowledge. The other three are kind of just decoration at the moment. We haven't, other than Ispan in this episode,

[00:30:48] we haven't really had any interaction with any of the others. And so Naomi has been the one who's most learned about it and has done the research and has all of the information to potentially pass over to someone else. But she, I don't know, Leandra may have, you know, thought that Naomi, you know, because Lanfear says, Oh, someone that thinks they're more clever than they are. And she might've thought, well, Naomi just knows everything. Doesn't she?

[00:31:17] Of the other four that I'm with. Um, I think that maybe, you know, she's the only one I, that was, that was my thought as well. Um, it was the, the, I think that Lanfear brought the clarity to, to Leandra's, uh, thought process. Well, and in that scene when Lanfear, and that was, that was such a bad bitch move to having the toe of her boot under her chin, man, I'll tell you what, if I, I don't ever want to do that to

[00:31:45] somebody, but I kind of want to do that to somebody, you know, like that was just like, Oh man. And she's just pushing Leandra's chin up and Leandra's like, well, what should I do when I find her? I'll kill her obviously, you know? Um, but she says, you know, it's someone who's, thinks they're more clever than they are. And I thought it was you. And the look of realization, like Leandra's face kind of relaxes a little bit and her eyebrows go up and she's like,

[00:32:13] okay, I know who it is. What do you want me to do with her? You know? And it's almost immediate. So yeah, they, they really operate on some tight timeline, like tight timelines, like, Oh, find the caller by tomorrow. Oh, killer. But find it, figure it out by tomorrow. I'm like, uh, like, I feel like this is not just unfair, but like, it's not, you can't operate delicately when you are rooting out a spy. Hey, you need a little bit of time. I mean, I think we're past

[00:32:42] the point of delicacy. Like she blew up the half blew up the white tab. Right. But she wasn't killing black Aja. Like she wasn't killing someone who was on their side. She wasn't trying to identify a traitor within their own ranks, not even to the light, but to a different dark. I don't like the dark, but it's funny because it goes back to, you know, again, when I was a kid,

[00:33:09] I read a series by David Eddings called, I believe the Bulgarian. And there was one of the, one of the characters says something about like the, the bad guy or evil is always the embodiment of one person. Good is always spread around a number of people. It's a number of people coming together for a common cause and they work together. It's bad as one person seeking power. And that even

[00:33:38] almost seems that way with this, where each of the forsaken are seeking power individually, utilizing their tools, uh, for their own individual purpose as a, but all of the good, all the good guys are just like, Hey, we're working towards a common goal of helping the dragon reborn defeat the shadow. Yes. The shadow is one quote unquote person. I mean, God, Satan, whatever you want to call him. But, um, it, that obviously that, uh, that kind of theory always

[00:34:07] stuck with me and it kind of ties to the losers club and Pennywise. Um, you can, you can look at almost practically any fantasy at the fellowship of the ring and Sauron. You can look at practically any story of good versus evil and it's never one person that stands for good. It's this group stands for good, uh, specifically fantasy. Yeah. And the dark ends up being just one large political

[00:34:34] campaign to see which of the boat, like which horrible person is going to be crowned most horrible, you know, like in this case, Nate, Nate, Nate, Nate, which I always pronounce Nate Lee. So I'm glad I never said it out loud before I watched this show because for some reason I thought I was French and fancy, but it's nameless. I was never cultured. So I always called it nameless in my head.

[00:35:00] All right. So I think that wrapped, does that wrap up Leandrin for you guys? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. All right. Veronica, where do you want to go? I want to stay in 10 Chico. So I have to admit that actually like, this was not a fave episode for me. It just felt very unbalanced in general, like things that I feel like should have been a bigger part of the episode were rushed.

[00:35:26] And we took a really long time for some small parts that I don't even know why we had them. Maybe you guys will convince me that they were important to have. So we'll get there. But what I did really love was the like happy moments in 10 Chico and the hills of 10 Chico song, like was kind of delightful. It was silly. A lot of this episode had some very silly moments, but I think that was one of the silly moments I could really lean into. You know, starting at the

[00:35:56] very beginning where they're all in their getups trying to fit in in 10 Chico, but I think still for the most part sticking out like sore thumbs. Elaine's hat was pretty ridiculous. But I mean, it felt right. It looked like people trying really hard to look like they came from there and not actually being able to. So I guess I'll forgive it. But once again, another episode with a hat I'm complaining about.

[00:36:26] But no, I mean, I thought like absolutely Elaine, her little moment of being possibly spotted as the heir to the throne of Andor and this being her cover up that she's actually a drunk apprentice for a, what do they, what do they call a merriment? Gleeman. Gleeman for a gleeman.

[00:36:52] I just thought it was fun and I wasn't expecting her to be actually singing and like that actually was the actress. That's her voice. In the after episode, they talk about that she kind of sang at like karaoke at a staff party or something and everyone was like, wow, she could really sing. We have to work this into an episode. And it was just really fun. Greg was nice enough to send me the song ahead of the episode before I had watched and been like, listen to this before

[00:37:22] you watch. And then, and then tell me what you think after you watch. And yeah, it's definitely two different experiences because similar to Elaine, I did not realize what was being referred to when they said the Hills of Tanchico. I thought we were just actually talking about the roughness of Tanchico, which I was familiar with from the bits we saw the prior episode. And I, in real time with

[00:37:46] Elaine, realized what the Hills of Tanchico actually are and thought that that was pretty funny, pretty silly. And I don't know, I liked it. At first I was a little like, this is too cheesy, but as it went on, I thought it was really fun. And I loved that they were still singing at the end of the night when finally like Min and Nainave rolled into there. And so I thought that was delightful. There were also...

[00:38:13] Yeah, Kira Coveney is the actress. And yeah, no, I agree. And the song, it rolls in the credits and it's Nikhil Kuparkar or Kupakar. Like I said, I listened to it following, I fell asleep to it last night because just because it's kind of relaxing and kind of like a little bit upbeat. It's also only like two and a half minutes. I haven't stopped singing it. I think Kristen, you said the same, right? Like...

[00:38:41] Yeah, I've been singing it all day. And this morning when I was in the shower, I was singing it and I was like, I had this realization. And I said, wait a minute, now that I know that Hills are like that Hill, which also took me... I didn't get it on my first watch. Like Eric came home and he is like, what'd you think of the song? And I was like, oh, it was cool. It was fun. It was cool to see him let their hair down. And he's like, no, but the song. And I was like, what do you mean? And so

[00:39:07] we rewatched it again. And I was like, oh, those Hills. Okay. That... And then I saw Elaine's like, oh gosh. And then she just starts like shaking herself when she realizes it. But so I had no idea. It took me a whole rewatch to understand what that was about. But so I've been singing it since I saw it the first time Thursday morning. But when I was in the shower this morning, I was singing it and I was like, wait a minute, there are also Hills and the Sound of Music. And

[00:39:35] I wonder like that just completely changed the perspective of that song for me. And then I started thinking about what other songs sing about Hills and try and change the perspective of those. Yeah. The Hills have eyes, which are in fact nipples. And like, what's... So yeah, great. Sorry. I'm sorry to have interrupted Veronica. No, it was great. But go ahead.

[00:40:01] Oh, I mean, that's all I had to say about like the specific song, but then just the other really fun, bright spots that we got from this group and Tanchico. I was not expecting to have this adorable interaction between Min and Nynaeve. And they just really seem to balance each other really

[00:40:24] well. And Min seemed to be able to get Nynaeve for the first time in the whole series to loosen up and laugh. And so that was just really funny. I love the line where Min told her like, you're scowling, it's suspicious, stop. And Nynaeve is like, it's just my face. That was one of my favorite quotes from this episode. I laughed really hard at that. I loved it. And then her mince follow up of well, like you would have made a good

[00:40:53] eyes to die with that. I thought that was really great. I said I watched the little after show interview and hearing the actress talk about having to figure out how would this character laugh? Like, how do I even laugh as Nynaeve? Because that has not been something she's really gotten to do a lot, which is just kind of sad for her.

[00:41:17] And I will say that Zoe Robbins, I think that Anwen, one of our friends, had mentioned that some of the cast was from New Zealand and Kiwis. And hearing Zoe Robbins talk in the Kiwi accent, I was like, oh my God, it's like I'm hearing Anwen's voice and accent in this character that I've watched for the last three years. And five at this point, actually. And I was just

[00:41:44] like, oh, that's so cool. And she does an amazing job of not having that accent. Like it's absolutely, it's phenomenal. It was really cool to hear her accent. I love a Kiwi accent. Listeners, if you don't know who Anwen is, and when she does their cast of the rings, and knows about all things Lord of the Rings, and is a delight to listen to. Her voice is fantastic. And her knowledge is too. But yeah, I think it was just even more endearing to hear that voice coming out of Zoe.

[00:42:14] And I've loved Nynaeve from the beginning. I love her abrasive personality. I love kind of a lot of, I feel like she's gotten a lot of hate I've seen online for just being like stubborn and people have been annoyed with her attitude. Like, no, I love it. Be angry and scowl all you want, Nynaeve. I love you. But it was fun to see her at least get a few moments

[00:42:39] with Min to loosen up. Obviously some other things happened in Chanchiko. I can pass the torch and let someone else keep going. No problem at all. I do want to mention towards the end of their interaction before they headed out, Nynaeve, I don't remember what she said, but Nynaeve said something in it. Was that a joke? Yeah. And oh my God, it's so good to see you kind of like letting your brain down and relaxing. And then she goes, oh wait, oh there it goes.

[00:43:08] Yeah, it was almost immediate. Very specifically remembered me of, or reminded me of Finding Nemo and oh, I've got a good feeling. And that's a crazy thing for me. Oh, good feeling gone. It was great. So you were talking about accents. One of the notes that I made while I was watching was Elaine's

[00:43:32] Tara Bonner, am I saying that right? Tara Bonner accent, Tara Bonner accent, like how she just, and I realized that she was probably trained in accents and different things as royalty, but her character lately, especially is just able to just go with the flow and pull anything out that she needs to, hence the hills, you know, and her accent was just absolutely fantastic in Tan Chico.

[00:44:01] I really liked listening to her. Like she could read me a bedtime story in that accent and I would be incredibly happy. The, the wilt is, is phenomenal. Like the, the way that her, her voice just up and down and it's all relatively smooth. Um, felt very folksy. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Um, while we're on Elaine, um, I, I think that this was a prime,

[00:44:30] it took me, it took me through at least my second watch to, to kind of think my way through it. Cause after the first one, I was just kind of like bitching about it. Like, Hey, these people are having conversations out in the open still. They're not being subtle at all. They're, they're like, Elaine is just like, Oh, I know all of this stuff as I'm here in this town because I hail from the

[00:44:57] Calpine. Why wouldn't I sound like this? Uh, I'm like, I'm like, do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? And the answer after watching it a few times is no, she doesn't. She thinks that that is her, um, that, that is her privilege of knowing, Oh, as long as I have all this information,

[00:45:23] I can imitate who, you know, people who are, uh, from this area or whatever. And it's, it's the idea that she thinks back to that, back to what, uh, Lanphier said, it's someone who she thinks that she's cleverer than she is. She thinks that having the knowledge, uh, is going to translate into something else. But what in fact translated into something else or into, uh, impersonating some, a different

[00:45:53] character was her song and her embracing the culture and embracing what was happening in the, like in the town and in the square as she was singing. It's like when you learn, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was just saying that I very specifically was like, initially I was like, Oh God, this, this writing is so bad. And there's a, and no, it's her, Elaine's writing is so bad because she

[00:46:19] doesn't think that other people are smarter than they are. It's like when you learn a language. So if you're trying to learn a new language and you're learning it from a book, it's entirely different than if you learn it when you immerse yourself in the culture. So it's a, yeah, that's a great comparison. Yeah. I was, I was very specifically like, Oh God, this writing is so bad.

[00:46:46] And then, then after I watched it, I was like, Oh, the writing's bad. Cause she's bad at doing this. Yeah. She had just graduated Tan Chico class and she wanted to show off what she knew. And then she was like, Oh, I'm in over my head now. What do I do? I'll forgive Elaine her missteps because that's a great explanation, but still like even Matt and I, I mean, men and I nave like loudly saying Leander's name and loudly asking

[00:47:15] someone to tell them more. Matt just randomly being like, Hey, we're looking for these really specific items that probably we don't want the people we're here looking for to know, but I'm going to tell it to random dudes on the street. And like, maybe that paid off for him. Maybe not, but like, it just felt really dumb. He immediately told Tom a whole bunch of very specific information and we'll get to the other storylines too. But Perrin did some

[00:47:45] similar things this episode just cause sort of bothered me. I'm like, guys, like how many times do you have to be through like near death experiences until you're going to take this seriously and be a little more careful? Yeah, I, I agree completely. Absolutely agree. And it was very, very frustrating. It was like the only person who actually kept their voice down and was like, was Tom. The new character, the new experienced character came in and he's like,

[00:48:15] you're telling me that your friend is the dragon reborn. Yeah, I know. And, and you're the hornblower. Yeah, it's crazy. And, and you're saying, I don't understand why it's all such a big deal. Like she's the daughter or heir of Andor over there. And why is the daughter or heir of Andor here? Oh my God, guys, shut the hell up. Tom is a student of history and culture. And those are the people that have learned from our previous mistakes. And so frustrating. Yeah. Why is he

[00:48:44] the only one who's being reasonable? Kill him. Well, and even in this episode, literally everyone in this episode, except Tom was being so loud about everything they knew except more rain. And we'll get to that later because I have a huge bone to pick with her. But anyway, but even the black agile, you know, Leandrin comes in and, and the servant or who they think is the servant is in the room. And she's like,

[00:49:12] Oh, I have something the actual forsaken don't want anyone to see. And they're just like very loudly talking about this. And Mogidion is literally looking over the shoulders of them. And they're just like, it's no big deal. And I'm like, what are y'all doing? I mean, that makes me, that makes me wonder if, if like she did something like she's obviously has some experience with compulsion. Did she do something to like minimize herself in their view?

[00:49:38] Uh, maybe I'm giving credit to Mogidion where it, it doesn't, it isn't deserved. Um, but I agree that was stupid too. That's a good point. You know what? That's a good point because when she's walking in the hallway and I realized that rich people think of servants like bug under the feet, but when she's walking in the hallway and she sees, is it, uh, Ches, Chesma, I think the one with

[00:50:02] the cat? Oh yeah. Chesma, I got it. Yeah. Um, so she's sitting there and she says good evening to her and the woman doesn't even look up. So maybe, maybe that it, maybe that was her. And that was right before she went into the room where she found out all the things. So maybe she has. Uh, yeah, I just, I, again, we didn't see it per se, but like I, that I can kind of like, Hey,

[00:50:26] maybe she, they are, you know, under some sort of, uh, and I mean, seeing her with Elaine and well, I think this will wrap up Tanchico, but seeing her with Elaine and Naineev, um, this scene is ripped directly from the books and the, and, and in the books you are from, I think Naineev's point

[00:50:52] of view. And you, one of the things that they say is that Naineev, she's like, Oh, Elaine answered faster than me, but I can share this other thing. And I could see it in their faces and in the way they were presenting. Oh no, we're just accepted. And like, they just, they wanted to, like, they want to please her. And, and I, I thought this was a phenomenal translation.

[00:51:19] It was absolutely fantastic. And Mughedian, her, like the, the actor doing Mughedian, like she was like, Oh, you're so clever. And like feeding into the, into the, the, the, oh yes. Now this makes me want to share more because I'm just a little girl who wants to please this person. It was the chef's kiss for this scene in general. It was absolutely,

[00:51:45] as I said, ripped out of the books and perfectly played and written. Um, they may have even be written from the books. I don't remember, recall the exact scene, but I remember how I felt and how Naineev felt when I was listening or reading it. And it absolutely, I have zero complaints about that scene at all. I thought it was perfection. It's very funny to see Naineev acting that way for sure.

[00:52:12] And even when she was like, you're fighting me, she's like, meh, meh, meh. And then she rips it out of her hand, rips the bracelet out of her hands. Then she's like, oh, the, the shift for both, both Elaine and Naineev, the actors did a great job shifting though that instantly. And Mughedian was like, she's still so creepy and you can sense how evil she is and

[00:52:39] how petty she is. And it, it's, uh, she's, I think she's doing a phenomenal job. A very weird thing happened to me during this scene because yes, Mughedian is like hands down one of the creepiest characters so far, like hands down. Um, and she, the actor, forgive me, I don't know her name off the top of my head, but she is absolutely perfect for this.

[00:53:05] Not how I pictured her from the books, but I would not have her any other way. But as she was like, as she put them under compulsion and they started doing the whole like girls at a sleepover giggling, you know, situation, I found myself like smiling and, and leaning in toward the TV. And I was like, after I watched it, I was like, was I just under compulsion? What just happened? Why was I smiling at that?

[00:53:32] Laya Costa, uh, or Laya Costa Bertrand, um, is the actor. Uh, and yeah, no, she's absolutely killing us. I thought it was cool. The little tidbit we got about like nine knaves power and that Mughedian is specifically called out, like you've blocked yourself. And I never reveals it's because she is afraid of how powerful she is. And then Mughedian said, in my time, we would have

[00:54:01] just beaten that out of you. Um, but she Mughedian seemed really intrigued by nine knave and nine knave. She, none of the black Aja resisted Mughedian, but nine knave did. And I think that is pretty exciting. Um, and I don't know, I just can't wait for nine knave to like come into her power. And I don't know, going back and watching season one where she like exploded

[00:54:29] in the cave is so exciting. And just knowing that's under the surface for her and that hopefully she gets it under control at some point is exciting to me. So I'm really looking forward to that too. I, I was, I was thinking about this and why wouldn't Mughedian just kill Elaine or nine yave? I guess she shouldn't kill nine yave cause she's supposed to go take her, you

[00:54:56] know, take her to the dark one. But, um, I think that Mughedian very specifically wants to see that very strong personality and that very strong resistance. And she wants to crush it. I think she wants to have the challenge and eventually she'll have this huge power under

[00:55:19] her thumb and she wants to, to sense the resistance squeezed out of her. And I think she's, she gets off. I think she would get off on, on that, uh, on that power trip. Um, I think that's one of the reason like, Oh, you could be a threat to me, but man, I, I'm going to make this delicious sandwich of your resistance is I'm going to make a meal of it and I'm going to savor every last bite.

[00:55:46] She seems a little bit of like an agent of chaos, you know, like she does want power and she is ultimately, I guess, serving the black one. But I think what she really serves is her own desire to see kind of what you said, like people in a bad spot and just seeing the world kind of burn. Um, because it just seems like she's plotting against literally everyone. Right.

[00:56:12] And like the stuff she did this episode, like, I don't understand the point of some of the things we saw her do, like vomiting into a plate of food, um, and then covering it back up. But like, again, it just felt very much like agent of agent of chaos. Like, let me just spread bad around and watch people deal with it. I think, I think it's just a matter of her being that's, that's her

[00:56:38] character. She's a petty person who, you know, she has disdain for these women the same way, potentially the same way that peasants or, or serve servants or slaves would have for their masters. And, you know, she's like, I'm so much better than these people. And I'm going to get this little bit of, of revenge or not necessarily revenge, but this little bit of back at them. I know I'm going

[00:57:05] to, I'm going to know that they're, they're eating my spit or they're going to eat the food that I've already chewed up and spit back into this thing. It was just like, I think, I think that it was that demonstrative act of pettiness that is kind of trying to define her character, in my opinion. That's the way I interpret that. Yeah. She feels like someone that would have come out of like Arkham Asylum in a Batman movie. I don't know why. I was just trying to think, have I seen a

[00:57:34] character quite like her before? And like, no, I have not, but it, it feels like something out of that universe to me for some reason with some additional crazy freaky power. All right. So I know we talked a little bit about Tom, Tom, you know, Tom is back just to try to close out Tanchico. Tom's back. He survived the fade. It was good to see him. He does, he does come back in

[00:58:00] the books. So I anticipated him coming back. Um, but, um, the fact that he was in Camelon at one point at Morguesa's court, uh, that tells me what, what do you mean? Like, I want to know more. Um, but he very specifically recognized Elaine, but then apparently so did like people in Tanchico, like, yeah. Uh, Oh, maybe like it's, they don't have the internet. Do they have like pictures

[00:58:28] circulated of royalty that's around? I don't know, but. Maybe, I mean, royalty, do they go on tour? Like, you know, they put, when they visit a city, they parade through the Taylor Swift situation. I, uh, I did not expect Tom to be back until this season when I got spoiled online where someone posted, where's Tom? And I was like, Oh, cool. I bet that means that he comes back. So

[00:58:55] I would have been even more surprised when I was rewatching the, I got through like three quarters of season one before this season started to rewatch. I was like, man, they really gave him a lot of attention in season one, like for him to just die. And so I am glad his character's back and seems interesting as ever. And hopefully is here to guide our heroes in a good way and not bad, but I don't know. I don't trust anyone.

[00:59:24] That's a good point. Don't trust anybody. Maybe, maybe give them a little bit of, uh, you know, lessons in spycraft. Um, all right. You guys have anything else for Tanchico? I have one more point about Tanchico and I love, I am so excited about this. So when Elaine and Nynaeve were in, you know, trying to get ready to go out into the night market and then Min and Matt burst in and they're giggling because, uh, Nynaeve is putting on the beaded veil and you know,

[00:59:54] the number of beads show your price. You may not want to do that. I love your confidence though. And then the very next scene, Matt is walking out. Okay. Thank you. I thought that's what I saw. And then I rewatched it. I was like, I still think this is what I see, but It is. It absolutely was. That's fantastic. And he wasn't just walking. He like sashayed out the door. Yeah. He knows his work. I laughed every single time. It was hilarious. He's like, well, yeah, I mean, you're not worth

[01:00:22] it, but I am. Here we go. And there was almost like, um, in the night market between him and the, the, the thief, the one that got the bracelet, there was almost like some flirtation stuff going on. So I was like, well, that's what those beads will get you, Matt. And I almost wonder if it wasn't intentional for him. So. I think that Donald Finn has been an amazing choice. And I thought that he, I think that he is,

[01:00:48] he has embodied the Matt that, uh, I think that I had imagined and maybe Barney Harris would have done just as good, but I think that, that he is doing a phenomenal job at the, uh, what's the word where you, you have like a, that overconfidence and that I can't remember what the word is,

[01:01:10] but it is, he, he's just this bigger than life character and his personality is so huge. He's I, I'm really enjoying his performance. I agree. I still feel like he's the Chandler of the show and I love it. And it was hard to switch up actors between season one and season two. Cause the other actor

[01:01:34] was great too, but I feel like, um, by this point I'm fully in on, on this version of Matt and think it's fantastic. And he splits that line, I think between kind of like a messy fuck up, a lovable brother and like, uh, I don't even know what you call it. Like an unsuspected hero, right? Like I was going to say, yeah, the, the, the, the unsung hero or yeah. Although I think he would love to sing his own song.

[01:02:04] Seems like that was the seeds he was planting with Tom possibly. All right. So anything else for Tenchiko? All right. In that case, we'll take a quick break and, uh, we'll be back in a couple minutes. Right. And we are back. Uh, you guys ready to move on to next point?

[01:02:35] So I just have like, I'm looking at my notes again while we were on break and I have two more points about Tenchiko. If you don't mind, I'd like to talk about this one was really funny and one was kind of crazy. Um, but when Nynaeve and Min walk into the night market where Elaine is singing and everybody's up dancing and Min is trying to collect everybody and wave everybody down. And then this woman walks up to her dancing because the song is on and Min just kind of gets up and

[01:03:03] puts her arms out and does like what I would call like the white girl dance, like just like shakes, like shakes her chest, you know, at this woman, uh, and the face that she made. It literally made me laugh out loud when I saw it every single time. Like I know it's coming now, but I still laugh every single time I see it. Now you're giggling in anticipation. It almost felt like, is this Min or is this a little bit of the actress also coming out just being silly in the moment? Right. It was cute. I loved it.

[01:03:33] Yeah. It did feel almost like a blooper that afterward in post, they were like, let's keep that. Cause I was actually kind of, yeah. Oh, and then my other note for, uh, for Tan Chico was when, uh, Ispan was in Teleronriad waiting for whoever she was waiting for. Uh, and Mogidion meets her and gets all of that information out of her and then basically crushes

[01:04:01] her face with her hands. Um, and the look on Mogidion's face and she's screaming into Ispan's face as Ispan is, is screaming while she's dying. And Mogidion's eyes are blank and she's just screaming into her face like, Oh, poor you, poor you. And just continues to squish her face with her bare hands. I was just like, Oh my gosh, this chick is crazy. Like literally actually crazy.

[01:04:27] That was so brutal. Um, like it was very much, uh, Game of Thrones, like the, the head squishing, the famous head squishing scene that I'm not going to spoil in that. Um, but, uh, it, it was very, very, I, I, I like the brutality and I like the fact that they're not shying away from it, but I also can appreciate that it's not over. I don't feel like it's over

[01:04:53] the top. No. Um, I think it's like tasteful gore or tasteful brutality. Uh, it's like, Hey, we are using the brutality to demonstrate something. We're not just doing it for the sake of it. And Hey, we're showing you how crazy this bitch is. I mean, yes. And, uh, and then like, like you said, at the end, she's just kind of like, huh? Oh my God. That's absolutely bonkers.

[01:05:21] I had to wonder what does Ispen's body look like when she's found in the morning? Oh, I was so hoping we would see it. That's weird of me, but I was like, I really want to know how she looked when she woke up. Cause we know that if you are killed until they're on road, that you die there, but like they said, wetlanders wonder why so many people die in their sleep. So I'm assuming

[01:05:46] you don't have the injuries that you obtained there. You just wake, you just are found having passed in your sleep. But according to the show, you do because he literally, yeah, Gwaine wakes up with the bruises. It makes me wonder if like, if she's still alive, then she has the injuries. But like, if you're mauled by a monster, you're not like, Oh my God, like they're ripped in half or whatever. Could you imagine? Like traumatic enough to find a family

[01:06:15] member who's passed suddenly in their sleep, but then you just find them like in this no clues, nothing. They were in a locked room, you know, literally ripped apart. What is happening? It must be Aes Sedai. Like there's gotta be it. Um, all right. So are we good? We good now? Okay. Yes. I'm yeah. I'm sorry. I had a really good time in Tanchico this episode. So I had a lot

[01:06:42] of notes about it. All right. So I am going to, uh, I'm going to go to the place I don't normally go. Uh, and that is the two rivers. Um, I, I don't mind the storyline, but boy, do I have some complaints? Um, so, uh, I'm glad that we saw that Perrin and, uh, and Alana, uh, they, they were dragged back.

[01:07:10] Don't you wrong? I have no idea how far that was. They apparently had to get horses in order to get there. So Fai'il, uh, like dragged Perrin back a number of miles or leagues or however far it was to the White Cloak encampment. Um, while he's bleeding out and, oh, Hey, hurry, get Alana Sedai because she's gonna, he's gonna die. Didn't die over the past like three hours or whatever that you are from

[01:07:38] the nighttime when you dragged him anyway. So again, I know that I've complained about healing. Um, I'm complaining about healing again. Uh, but it's fair though. It is fair and warranted. And so we, we, we, we, we, we see him. Okay. Hey, we've, he's bandaged up. He's pulsed to stuff. Uh, uh, Alana is bandaged up, pulsed to stuff. You know, obviously she had like five crossbow bolts

[01:08:06] in her back and her side and her leg. Um, so, you know, she was in more dire shape. Tis but a scratch. Oh my God. This, that I'm going to say that the idea, this is like my huge bone to pick here is that it's not like naive. I get it. Like, Hey, she was the wisdom. She had worked

[01:08:33] for years in order to perfect her craft and so on and so forth. Uh, she happened to have a little bit of help by the power. We're going to believe that, uh, I think it's Eldwin and Bodhi, um, coffin embrace the source and then they can just like, Oh, and I can heal someone now. So that's, that's cool. Like the power does the healing on its own. Uh, it is, it is, it is a, it is something that's getting stuck in my craw and I, I don't like

[01:09:03] it. Am I going to forgive it? Yes. I'm going to forgive it, but I don't like it. And I don't like the idea that we have an entire Aja dedicated to the art of healing, but two girls can be like, Oh, I can heal someone from almost death by just embracing the source and then touching uh, touching the person who, uh, I, I have to let it go because it's going to eat at me until it, it's, it's, it's, it just bugs, it bugs really. If it's not apparent, it obviously bugs me.

[01:09:33] I think if it had been the only like heal from death scene this season, I might not feel as critical as you do, but it just feels like it is suddenly almost impossible for someone to die. And I feel very low level of concern about our core characters. And there are a lot of core characters. I feel like

[01:09:59] they should be a little more at risk. The stakes are definitively lowered because injuries aren't real injuries, which I believe that I, or you have said on the podcast. So I do have a theory about it that may help you sleep a little bit better. It helped me. Um, yes, that the girls linked with Alana and

[01:10:23] they didn't use Alana didn't use her power, but they used her knowledge of the weaves while they were linked. And Alana had just enough to like, give them what they needed to be able to, to do it. Like that's the only way I could make it work. Yeah. I thought about that because you did see all the powers like, but you didn't see power coming from Alana. You didn't. And it, I get it and I can choose

[01:10:51] to accept that that's what happened. But again, it goes back to just a line, say it. Hey, they had channelers here and I was able to, to guide their flows to, to heal me. And if it was like, Hey, no, I'm still hurt. I'm not like back to full strength because I had to utilize their, their power. Um, and they don't know what they're doing. Like it just any, anything that's going to be able to

[01:11:20] justify that in my mind, I'm going to be willing to accept, but if they don't say it, I can't, if they don't acknowledge it, then I can't just accept, Oh, okay. Yeah. That's what happened. I need them to, to give me a string to hold onto because right now it's just like, Oh, who cares? If you can access the power, you can literally heal anybody. I can appreciate you trying to do it.

[01:11:47] You tried to talk me off the ledge, but I'm still on the ledge and I'm going to jump because this is very frustrating. Well, now I'm back on the ledge because of your comments. So thank you. I'm not sleeping tonight. I think the only other thing I could think of that still didn't give me satisfaction. I still feel frustrated, but was just that these young people coming out of the

[01:12:13] two rivers right now have unusually strong and possibly a slightly more innate ability to handle the power than what's been seen in recent ages. I still don't feel great about that, but I mean, that's sort of what the whole reason Alana is here is because she thinks there might be more powerful channelers. And we saw, you know, Nynaeve has been pretty fast to pick things up. So we have

[01:12:41] precedent for people coming out of this village, having some unusual concentration of power and an innate ability to sort of handle it without a ton of training. Still, it was very hard for me that these two girls seemingly, you know, one of the first times they really had purposefully tried to channel were able to bring her back from such a significant place. It's not enough for me to just chalk it up to

[01:13:09] that. I'm going to throw back to season one. Egwene, who is one of the most powerful channelers I've seen except for Nynaeve. Moiraine worked with her for a week, two weeks, however long, and she produced this one tiny little after pulse in the blue gem. Right. That was what she was able to do. So, and I'm not arguing with you. I'm not, I'm just, I'm saying my, it's fair. We, we built the lore

[01:13:37] here and we are bypassing the lore here and that's frustrating to me, but I do love the show. I love the story and I can't wait to see more. I'm just going to bitch about that. Um, there are inconsistencies with it because, you know, we do have the, a tiny bit of the backstory with the queen of Manetherin finally getting fed up after whatever it was, 10 or 13 days, and then essentially destroying the entire

[01:14:02] army on her own and burning herself out. So the queen of Manetherin obviously had this power. So there is some bloodline there in the mountains for these very strong and powerful people. But that said, like you said, with Egwene having had so much power in her and having to train for so long. And then these, you know, two little girls come up and all of a sudden they can do these magical things that take

[01:14:31] years of practice for accepted in the tower to learn. So yeah, there are definitely Hollywood inconsistencies just to push the story along. So I'm, I'm with you on that one, Greg. So, all right. So those are my two big complaints. Um, uh, again, back to just healing. Um, but so one

[01:14:55] of the things that we did get that I did really like was Fahil's backstory. So Perrin, like she shares her backstory. Her mother was a, you know, her mother and father were both generals in Saldea. Um, her mother revealed to her that she was a dark friend and she wanted her to take the oaths with her. Um, she told her brother about it. Her brother tried to stop her mother when Fahil left, uh,

[01:15:23] her mother killed her brother and then she hasn't been back since. Um, and I, I like this. I, I, I, this is slightly different than the, than the books. Um, and I like it because it gave her an urgency to get out of Saldea. Um, it gave her a reason, Hey, I've got to come up with some sort of reason besides my mom was a dark friend and I bailed. Um, so, Hey, I'm going to go hunt for the horn. Uh, I will say

[01:15:52] the reveal of Perrin telling her that they knew where the horn was and Matt had blown it and her reaction to it was exactly what I would figure. Are you serious? You, how long have I been talking about this horn? This is ridiculous. How are you just now telling me? I, I, I could appreciate that reaction. Um, but having said that, this is much less compelling for me. Like the storyline is much

[01:16:19] less compelling for me. Uh, but seeing Patton Fane back in the two rivers kind of like upped my interest a little bit because I think he is a great character and, uh, the, the actor's doing a great job. Uh, but the fact that I'm assuming he just slaughtered some white cloaks. And dressed in their bloody clothes. Yeah. Oh, had some trouble with some Trollocs. Uh, but I think I can help you with these, uh, you know, nice little folk in the two rivers. And the fact that they didn't question

[01:16:49] white cloaks that they had never seen before, they're like, Oh yeah, you come to me covered in blood telling me you're a white cloak. Of course I'll take your help. What are you dumb? Like what, what's going on? I mean, Valdo would probably take their help no matter what, but Bornhold, like have some sense. Yeah. I mean, I, I guess, I guess his, his viewpoint is as long as I get Perrin, I don't care how I get them. Um, which again, back to the, that's how you

[01:17:15] lead that all paths lead to the dark that way. Right. If you're out for revenge, if you're out for savior salvation, if you're out for whatever, if you are, if you are seeking something with all of your heart, that's the path to the dark. Just ask, uh, Anakin. Those were kind of like the, the big points that I had. I liked Phil's backstory. The fact that Perrin then opened up to her about

[01:17:41] Layla, um, made, made sense. Her reaction when he showed her the, the drawing, um, I thought it was hysterical. I really, really liked the actor who plays Fahil. I think that she's doing a very good job, even though I think that some of, some of the writing is not necessarily like up to par of what I'm looking to see. I think she's doing the best that she's, she's, uh, is being given. And even

[01:18:08] Perrin, um, he's, I, I feel like the writing is weakest in this area. And to be fair, I felt that the Perrin storylines in the books were also the weaker of the different storylines. So maybe I'm predisposed to, uh, like this, this line less, but I'm looking forward to next week. I can only imagine based on the preview that it is going to be, uh, Fade and the White Cloaks taking on the two

[01:18:37] rivers folk. Don't, well, I don't know what to do with Fahil. And I don't, I wonder how much of that is like the difference between a book reader where you already have an established, like, understanding of this character. But like, I don't trust her. I don't feel like we've established her enough for me

[01:19:00] to feel good about Perrin in sequence, revealing how he killed his wife, professing that he only sees light when he looks at Fahil, confessing that he's a wolf brother, and that Matt blew the horn of Valir. Like, you, I know she saved you. Like, do you really know her well enough to have just told her literally all your darkest, deepest secrets, not only about yourself, but about the people you

[01:19:26] care about. It just was really very, very strange to me. And if more time has passed than I realized, then I need the show to somehow exemplify that to me better so I can believe them having this close of a relationship. But everything about this felt very strange, very out of place. The actress for

[01:19:50] Fahil is wonderful. But like, I just did not understand. And it felt inconsistent with the Perrin that we have known for the last couple of seasons. I feel like you are 100% right. I think that you are absolutely right. And there needs to have been

[01:20:14] if it's, hey, it's been a month and a half. Hey, it's been like, as far as we know, we think it's been like maybe a week, maybe two weeks. Sure, she saved him. But he's seen a number of people do good things. And then turn out to be bad. So I mean, how long was Patton Fahil coming to the two rivers? He knew him for years. And he turned out to be the person who brought all the Trollocs to the

[01:20:43] two rivers. So I get your point. And they need to, they needed to have given the viewers more of a reason and more of an explanation as to why he would only see light when he looks at her. I mean, right now where I'm at, and I know you guys, it's hard to like throw theories out because you guys know the answers. And so I realize you probably can't say anything to this. But like,

[01:21:13] from watching this, my inclination is that Fahil's story is completely false. She is actually a dark friend. She is somehow compelling, like, a parent to feel more attached to her than he should. And if that's not what's going on, then they've done a bad job of establishing why Perrin is having this openness with him.

[01:21:40] The fact that like, I think a listener brought up last week that, you know, they pointed to Alana and Maxim coming through the ways, but then we get Fahil and Lord Luke having shown up as well. Uh, I feel like, uh, parent is basing his viewpoints on preconceptions and, uh, we having seen all of

[01:22:07] these other people who are bad, um, we don't have the benefit of having all of his interactions with her and the amount, whatever, whatever the amount of time is that they've been together, um, or been in the same town. And I think you are a hundred percent right. They either need to have done a better job in showing how much time has passed or give us a reason for Perrin to be not suspicious,

[01:22:35] i.e. some sort of channeling or influence or whatever. Yeah. I feel like, um, with Perrin and Fahil, this was like the speed dating version of their relationship. Um, because in the books and I didn't remember a whole lot of it, I had to have several conversations about their relationship in the books to, to come to this conclusion. Um,

[01:22:59] but in the books, their relationship is, is very complex and there's a lot of different things that happen to, you know, kind of bring them, you know, to kind of bring them to, well, even to this point in the story. And yeah. And so I think what the writers did with, with his storyline, because you guys were right, but I think both of you said that like Perrin is

[01:23:24] kind of just like a side character and, you know, his, his character development hasn't been as in depth as some of the others. Um, and I think that's what the writers did. They looked at this global story of Fahil and Perrin and they were like, okay, well, how can we condense it down to make it fit with the important people? You know, even though Perrin is very important, but it's, it's been a little bit

[01:23:48] more condensed, um, than I would have liked to have seen, but maybe, maybe that'll change later. I don't know. Um, but it was definitely a speed dating version. It's like, oh, you have two minutes to tell this person in front of you everything about yourself and see if they stick around. And she did, she got in his lap. So let's see how that, see how that happens. I mean, uh, yeah, Perrin very specifically said everything that you would say at the speed

[01:24:16] dating table to get, oh, I'm going to show vulnerability. I'm going to tell you that all I see is light. When I look at you in a world full of dark, this is, you're the only positive light I see. I mean, like that's actually a really good comparison with all very dark hair, dressed all in black with dark black, like eyeliner, like who literally looks like a forsaken or not forsaken, but a, uh, a dark friend. Like if I was going to classify, I suspect her too much. And that makes

[01:24:43] me feel like I've got to be wrong and suspecting her, but I don't know. No, I, I can, I can totally appreciate that. Like I want to know who came through the ways. Now we also know that, by the way, I want to ask about that, that scene at the end, uh, where Fahil and Ban and Chiad, uh, see the, were those, did they, was it an army? Was it Trollocs? Was it people? Was it? They look like Trollocs to me. Okay. I did not, I did not like.

[01:25:12] I hear it sounded like Trollocs roaring. I listened back like three times, like tried to look and couldn't tell what the size of the creature was, but I don't think if it was just men that we would have heard that like roaring. Yeah. And the way that they were walking, they were kind of lumbering, not, not walking super upright, like an army of men would have. That's why I assumed they were Trollocs, but yeah, I just,

[01:25:39] because we saw Fane there and because we know that he brought Trollocs through the ways before, that's my assumption that it is, that it is, is Trollocs. Um, I just want to, one more complaint about this. There's no bloody way that Bane and Sheet and Fale, all who are combat minded,

[01:25:59] would stand at the top of a horizon on a cliff against the sky to look at all of these people coming. There's zero way. Yeah. In a clearing. Yeah. Like with their silhouettes against the clouds. Yeah. It really, really bugged. And I get it, but they didn't show it that way, but that death, they definitely made it perceived that way. And it really irritated me.

[01:26:27] Well, Trollocs are stupid though too. So they like, if they knew or kind of had a feeling that they were Trollocs, like, what does it matter? Like Trollocs won't know one way or the other. They just do what they're told. You don't know until you walk up and you see. That's, well, that's, that's true. Like, I don't know if they saw or heard them ahead of time because they were doing like the maiden hand speak, whatever. They were being quiet. I don't know. Yeah. We don't care about what we both, but they see, but we're not going to be loud. Yeah.

[01:26:54] Even over this cacophony of, of growls or whatever, or roars. Right. It just irritated me. So, but speaking of sounds though, I have to say that I appreciate that every time Pat and Fane is coming into the next scene, we hear his whistle. It's very creepy. I really like it. It's a very weird whistle. And I just, I really enjoy it. And I also am not super happy about

[01:27:23] having seen a Trolloc in daylight. It was, they're a lot more scary than they look at night, which doesn't make sense, but they are, they're horrible looking. And I'm like, oh, well, if you have the cover of darkness to cover you, I can just like pretend you're a big bear. But now I actually see your face in the daylight and you're horrifying. And that tells me the costume department and the makeup people are doing a phenomenal job. Absolutely.

[01:27:50] They've really like gotten the experts to come and do these things because it is very, very impressive in my opinion. But that's really all the important crap that I had to talk about as far as that goes, as far as Two Rivers goes. I guess it's not crap if it's important, but all of the stuff that I wanted to talk about. Do you guys have anything else?

[01:28:16] The only other thing I have to add is that I really like that Alana, as soon as she was healed, rolled over and was like, I told you so. Yeah. Like that was the first thing on her mind, you know, not like, oh, thank goodness I'm not dying. It's like, let me go emasculate my water and tell him I told you so. This may sound misogynistic, but like that's pretty on point for long-term relationships.

[01:28:44] It is. No, I get it. 100%. Like having been in one now for 20 years, I get it. You know, even if you don't say it, you just give a look like the I told you so look, you know, so I get it. But I do appreciate having been in a long relationship. Like that was the first thing on her mind. Not like, you know, the fact that she just cheated death by the hands of a 10 year old, but she wanted to tell Maxim, I told you so. It's very important.

[01:29:13] I try to work it in even early into a relationship. You have to, you have to keep people in their place early. Yes. 100%. Agreed. Did you say set the standard? All right. Need to calm, calm my body. Cause all right. So that is that, that finishes my, my stuff for the two rivers. So Kristen, what do you want to talk about next?

[01:29:40] Um, I think I will talk a little bit about a Gwaine and her dreaming training. Um, and I am going to throw it back to the last episode a little bit when I talk about her and her like creepy voyeuristic dropping in on her. I know you guys already talked about it. And when I heard you talk about it, I was like, yes, that's what I was saying. What a creep. Like I would hate that.

[01:30:06] Like, I mean, I tell my best friend everything almost, but I still don't want her looking at my dreams. Cause there's some crazy stuff that happens that you can't control. And then, you know, that happens. And so, yeah. So Gwaine and dreaming. Um, so I feel, and this is one of the things that I do actually remember from the book quite vividly for some reason. Um, how in depth and how long and how,

[01:30:35] how grueling her training was. And in the show, it's just like, Oh, well now she can do this, you know, and you know, she's battling the shadow sold in the, in the dream. Um, and one of the things that, that I do like is that she has picked it up so quickly so that it can move the show along.

[01:30:56] I understand that they can't take, you know, 12 episodes or whatever to talk about her, you know, dreamwalking. Um, but I, I don't, I don't like how the wise ones are so easy on her for like disobeying. Like they very specifically told her, you know, don't do this without us. And then she did. And they were like, well, and I said, I can't lie. She's like, yeah, I lied about that too.

[01:31:22] And they just, and they just blew it off like nothing. And they were so easy on her while they're so harsh on their own people. Like when they went to Viridian at the first time and there were extra men there, the wise ones just had to turn around and say, okay, you go home. And they immediately left.

[01:31:38] Like, you know, immediately like the wise ones hold so much power and so much sway among the IEL and they're so harsh on their own people because they are a harsh people. Um, but then Elaine just, or not Elaine, I'm sorry. Egwene basically says, you know, yeah, I, I mean, I've been lying to you this whole time, but I know what I'm doing, whatever. And she's kind of cocky about it. And they're just like, okay, well, let's try again.

[01:32:01] And I'm like, wait, where's her, where's her punishment for that? Because she's been really creepy in the dream and she's done things that, you know, you, you've told her not to do and you're just going to let her off the hook. Like it was no big deal.

[01:32:17] Um, yeah. So I, I, I did not like that part of it. Um, but one of the things that was really interesting in the scene with her at Lanfear, um, but before I get into that, the, the graphics that they do when someone moves out of a dream, like the, they're almost like leaves kind of, but kind of feathery. I really liked that graphic.

[01:32:41] Like the production. Yeah. The production team did a really good job with the choice of that. Um, but when Lanfear kicks, uh, Malene and, uh, bear out of the dream and then pulls Egwene into Teleron Riod, Teleron Riod. Um, and you know, Lanfear saying, oh, well, he knows Rand knows everything. How does it feel that he knows everything that I've been doing to you?

[01:33:07] And the minute Egwene starts to challenge her, Lanfear gets physical. Like she, she realizes that, you know, she can't control her mind at that point. So she's like, well, I'm just going to choke you. So you can't talk because I told you that he knew everything and I'm not going to let you challenge me on that. Um, and I, I did, I did like that. That's how that went down.

[01:33:33] And then of course Elaine wakes up or Egwene wakes up. I get those names messed up all the time and I'm so sorry. Um, they are, it's like pick a different long vowel sound, please. But, um, but Egwene wakes up and almost immediately challenges Rand on it. Um, but I, I did like that, that it was kind of a different behavior from Lanfear. It was almost like,

[01:33:58] not fear, not fear, but caution, you know, her own way, you know, physically harming another person is her version of caution. So. Did, did she actually pull Egwene into Teleron Riyad? Because when Egwene woke up, Bear was still like acting as if they'd just been in her dream. But then why else would she have done that? Like the, the effect you were talking about, it looked like she got pulled somewhere.

[01:34:27] Right. I feel like she was because she ended up strapped to the same device or, or fixture that Rand was strapped to at first when Lanfear pulled him in. So I feel like the way that that was presented was they were, they started in her dream. Lanfear got rid of everybody else because she couldn't overpower three people. And then she just overpowered Egwene to pull her to where she wanted her to be. So Egwene needed to resist being pulled out of her dream.

[01:34:57] Right. I mean, and I think that one, I was going to say, my answer also to your question would be yes, Veronica. I was going to say that I felt vindicated in the, oh yes, she definitely pulled her into Teleron Riyad or Riyad. In other times, we just didn't see it because she would wake up in her dream and she would just pull her into a similar thing because that's how she was able to hurt Egwene.

[01:35:23] Okay. Right. Okay. So anytime she's waking up with a bruise or somehow hurt, it's because she was in. She was pulled into Teleron Riyad. Because we talked about it last week or whenever we talked about it. And I was like, I, I, I think this like proved what I was saying is that, that I think that she pulled her from her dream. But I do, I can't appreciate what you're saying, Veronica, with regard to, well, Bear and Milane are just saying, well, you have all the power there.

[01:35:52] Well, I don't think they realized that she was pulled into Teleron Riyad. I think that like they said that she, they couldn't get back in. In my head, I'm going, okay, they couldn't get back in because she wasn't in her dream. She didn't have a dream at that point. And that's why they couldn't get back in. Maybe they, the, maybe the wording could have been better, but like we couldn't find your dream or something like that. I wish there was a clear tell, like, yeah, not like faded in blue or not really that.

[01:36:22] But you know, like the six cents type stuff, right? Maybe not. I do. I will say, I will appreciate that about this show that not everything is like right in your face. And like, they do subtle things that don't come up for several more episodes and they don't always do crazy exposition to explain things. So I'm sort of complaining about that right now. I realize it is something I appreciate about the show. It's not all just spelled out, but.

[01:36:47] It's very specifically like the same thing with the Fahil and Perrin thing, right? If they took, like Kristen said, if they took 12 episodes to develop that relationship, people would complain about that. Yeah. If they, but they, they did it in two episodes while we're complaining about that. Is four episodes long enough? Is six episodes long enough? Is it, you know what? We just have to, we, we, we, we take what they gave.

[01:37:12] Perrin either made a mistake or he made a, a good piece of judgment based on whatever spidey sense that he has. We will find out soon. Hopefully. If she's a dark friend, then I want to know by the end of the season. I don't want to have an entire season go by an entire, more two years, more, two more years go by before I realize, oh yeah. Haha. You trusted this person and everything's F'd in the A.

[01:37:39] Well, based on how slow they'd move everything for Perrin. I said, we might not find out for a few more seasons. He's only, he's only going to be like one year older by the time his final storyline in season eight or whatever. Yeah. Poor Perrin. I really think, and that's the thing like about writing a show too, is that this, this series in particular has something like 2,600 characters.

[01:38:05] And, you know, when people are reading it, you get attached to different people for different reasons. And when you see an adaptation of it, you're like, oh, I really hope they do this with this character because you've become attached to them. But, you know, in the global sense, you can't really do that. And so the people that are upset about certain things, you know, they've obviously become emotionally attached to this character while they were reading. And, you know, and they're disappointed that the show isn't showing them that character in real life.

[01:38:35] Or not in real life, obviously. I don't think this is real life. I'm not that far in yet. But, yeah. All right. Anything, anything else for dreaming? Not, not about Egwene's dreaming. I will, I will say that whatever that little brass pin and the candle, like it has saved her ass two or three times now. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That is super smart. Like maybe don't want to sleep without that now? Yeah.

[01:39:04] Maybe you just need to wake up every like hour on the hour for the rest of your life. That's like, that's like your nightly routine now. You brush your teeth, you comb your hair, you put the brass pin in the candle. Like that's, you do it every night. I would be doing that if that's what was happening to me in my dreams. Can you fathom every time you go to sleep, you're being hunted by this person who can be in your dreams all the time? Like it's Freddy Krueger. It's Freddy Krueger all over again.

[01:39:34] It is. I'm going to get stuck in a waterbed one of these days. I don't want to do that. It's awful. How terrifying. Like, and like, yeah, like every time you fall asleep, because, because then that, what that leads to is now you're falling asleep during the day and you're terrified for literally every moment that you might fall asleep. All right. So I, Freddy Krueger was like a terror because the, because of, for me as a kid, because of the inevitability of sleep. Yes.

[01:40:04] That very specifically like messed with my head for a long time. So it, it is, it is very close to my heart. Me too. That was my first cinematic trauma. Yep. Was Freddy Krueger. Because my parents are not my parents, but my dad owned a waterbed. And when I saw that episode or that, that movie, that one, you know, not episode, that one movie. Yeah. And I was just, I saw that and I was absolutely terrified. Would not go near my dad's room.

[01:40:33] I was like, I'm no, I'm sleeping in here. I'm locking my door and that's it. So yeah, it has a, yeah, it has a huge impact. I don't know any of this. I'm such a big weenie. I don't even know the lore behind what you guys are talking about. I don't like, I don't want to even talk about it anymore. Cause I don't want you guys to say more. Cause I don't need this in my psyche. Fair enough. Fair enough. But like, yeah. Sounds real terrifying. I'm a big weenie. Veronica, your dream, your dreams are safe. Don't worry about it.

[01:41:02] Freddy, Freddy Krueger was in like the late eighties, early nineties. He's gone. So your dreams are safe. Rest easy. Yeah. All right. So anything else for dreaming? Not for Egwene's dreaming. Okay. We're going to hit a quick break right now. And then we're going to come back and we're going to finish off our points.

[01:41:39] And we are back. All right. We're for our last point or two ish. Point and a half. Veronica, you want to get us started? Yeah. So I think let's talk about and kind of tail ending off of talking about Egwene in her dreams and tell her on Ryoad what came next, which is Egwene finally going to confront Rand about what she learned about Lanfear.

[01:42:06] And I mean, he's lied to her. He's betrayed her. And she says that explicitly. And man, like, I think the actress did such a good job when when Rand says that she just can't understand because that was a moment of like, he's not completely wrong. But it was so condescending.

[01:42:29] And like, I mean, I think I would have wanted to punch him in that moment if I was Egwene and like her disgust at that statement and sort of like, that's rich. Like, are you kidding me? Was done really well. And I mean, he's she's right. Like, she calls him out. She's like, we literally came all the way out here. I followed you into that. I was. Because we're supposed to be trying to escape the forsaken.

[01:43:00] And you've literally brought her along essentially with us. And, you know, in in her in Teleron Road with Lanfear, Lanfear tells her Rand knows everything. He even knows that Lanfear has been torturing him. But we were pretty sure that he didn't know that piece. And that seems to have been confirmed when she confronted him, at least about that.

[01:43:27] At least he didn't know Lanfear was torturing her. I am really curious after all of that, not to mention how the episode ends, where Rand is going to land with Lanfear the next time he does encounter her. Um, I think, at least for now, his relationship with Egwene is, Egwene is like broken. And I'm assuming they're probably going to split ways, at least somewhat.

[01:43:55] Um, but I'm very curious how this changes how he feels about Lanfear. If it changes how he feels about Lanfear, he's obviously probably going to be in a pretty bad place. He's in need of people supporting him, but I don't know.

[01:44:14] I went back and forth with about whether him, like how much did he understand that Lanfear in his dreams was really Lanfear? Like he explicitly knew that was real Lanfear visiting him, right? Like this is cheating, right? That he's been sleeping with her in his dreams because he knew it was more than a dream. I guess I'm curious your opinions on that.

[01:44:42] Yeah, I don't know how much he actually knows about the dream world because he's not really been given the insight that other characters have. Um, so I don't know, like, I don't know if he really understands that that's actually her or if it's just his mind manifesting it.

[01:45:05] But he 100% was gaslighting Egwene, like, you know, tortured man, like, oh, you don't know what it's like for me. But yes, I'm still also like dreaming about this other woman, like very vividly. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I don't know if he understands that it's actually real. And I hope that that gets revealed.

[01:45:28] And I do hope that there is some sort of confrontation because the look of betrayal on his face when he found out that she'd been torturing, she'd been the one torturing Egwene. Um, was, was pretty raw. So I'm very interested, like you are, to see, you know, where that, where that goes. Especially after Egwene said, your land fear. Like, oh, that was your land fear.

[01:45:55] You know, that, like, they were, they were both betrayed, but in different ways from different sides of the situation. Yeah. So as the sole male presence right here, um, I'm going to, I'm going to say something that may sound bad, but I'm going to take Rand's side here. I can appreciate where he's coming from.

[01:46:22] Um, can I appreciate where one, I think that he absolutely knew that it was the real land fear because he knew that she was the, like had rule of dreams. And, uh, I, I, I do not have any question that he thought that maybe it was like his, his personal dream of land fear. And, uh, I think it was absolutely, he understood that it was land fear.

[01:46:47] Um, having said that he had grown comfortable, um, with Selene. He had slept with Selene for an extended period of time when he had told Egwene that he was dead or he had passed the word that he was dead. Um, he had closed the book of their relationship and accepted the fact that he wasn't ever going to have that relationship ever again.

[01:47:15] And so I don't think that was wrong back when he wasn't actively with Egwene. No, no. And I'm not, I'm not suggesting that that's what you said. Um, I, what I'm getting at is that there is a level of comfort when you get to that point. Even when you find out that the person you've been sleeping with is a bad person, it's hard to let that level of comfort go.

[01:47:38] And I can appreciate where, yes, like my note very specifically is it's all unfair. He is being completely unfair because what he said was you always do this. I'm not enough for you. I've never been enough for you, even back in the true rivers. And, and I get where he's coming from. I do understand where he's coming from, but it's not fair.

[01:48:05] It's taking an isolated incident or it's taking an isolated circumstance and then extrapolating it to everything. Right. That's, that's bullshit. Um, but he said, I'm the dragon reborn and I'm still not enough for you. And that's a complete and utter like misclassification. Yes. She wanted to have her own life. She wanted to have her own.

[01:48:30] She wanted to go be nine years assistant as you wanted to be like the assistant wisdom or whatever. She wanted to have her own aspects. Yes, you're right. As a strong woman, you are not enough for the entirety of my life, nor should you be. You should be all that I need in my life.

[01:48:56] But what it really comes down to is that they, I think Veronica, you said it a few episodes ago, they're high school sweethearts. They aren't built to be together for the rest of their lives. They developed a relationship when they were in their teens and those circumstances don't remain the same over the rest of your life.

[01:49:18] And it doesn't make any sense for them to them to anticipate you, especially even more show with all of these crazy changes that have gone on in your lives. So he was being very unfair and maybe gaslighting is the right word, but I think that being going on the defensive because it's taking the defensive track and going the offensive because you know that you fucked up.

[01:49:45] Like, yes, he absolutely cheated with Lanphier and he knew that that was happening, even if he was never physically with Egwene. Maybe, and I think he was because she went to go try. He was, and multiple times tried to be. Yeah. And that's my point is like, he was, and that was absolutely cheating. 100%. Absolutely without question.

[01:50:08] I think what bothers me the most about this with Rand and this, I won't be enough and almost this, you don't understand kind of thing is sort of the shitty way he was to her when she wanted to become a wisdom.

[01:50:25] And it, it feels like, and it still feels like that he expects her to, well, I'm the dragon reborn and that should be enough for you not to also want to be an independent person who gains wisdom from the wise ones or goes and trains with the Aes Sedai. And it feels, I think the gaslighting piece of it is that he's actually the one who's wanting her to give everything up for him.

[01:50:54] But like acting like she's the one being selfish. And I think to me, that's where the get, where it feels a little gaslighty. I'm not saying that Rand isn't in a really complicated situation and that has tied to Lanfear. Not only is there the piece where he thought she was Selene and he did like bond with her, but also there is something deeper. He is the dragon reborn. Lanfear has a draw and a connection to him. That's deeper than just say he's Rand.

[01:51:24] And who knows, who knows what echo of that it plays into Rand's emotions versus just being on the receiving end of that sort of emotion from someone as powerful as Lanfear. Or I don't want to discount and just be like, Rand has it easy and he's just blaming Egwene. But like, I do feel like he was mostly at fault and trying to flip the tables and being kind of unfair to her. Yeah.

[01:51:53] I feel like he's almost so, in the current timeline and current storyline, Egwene is literally the only thing that he has tying him to the person that he was before all of this shit happened. And like, I'm not saying the only thing keeping him sane, but the only thing that like ties him back to his roots. The only touchstone to his previous life, yeah. Yes, exactly.

[01:52:19] Like, he still has like Matt and Perrin and Nynaeve, but they're all off doing whatever they're doing. Nynaeve is, or I'm sorry, Egwene is the only one in his face like every day that kind of reminds him where he came from. And I think he's probably selfishly holding on to that, even knowing, I mean, who knows what he saw? Like, I mean, we all know what he saw when he went through the columns, but what else he saw or what other realizations he came to on his own.

[01:52:48] But I think he's, I think he is, or was using her in a way to kind of keep him grounded to what he was before. So in that way, I think he used her a bit for that part of his, you know, his own comfort while still trying to do all the Dragon Reborn things. And I know that I've mentioned it, and we've had the conversation, Kristen.

[01:53:18] But because they are so much different between the book and the show, like Rand, when the book starts, he's like 15. And he and Egwene are not in a sexual mature relationship. Right. And so there are, you know, there are definitive differences.

[01:53:38] But one of the things that I've talked to a number of my friends of regarding, like, breakups and whatnot, I understand where the comfort of sleeping with the person that you slept with for a long time is, it's hard to break that draw. It's hard to not just Egwene, but Selene or Lanphier. Both of them have a different touchstone to him.

[01:54:04] But then that ties back, or that ties again, to what Veronica and I were talking about earlier this season, where Moiraine wants him to focus specifically on being the Dragon Reborn. But the entire idea to keep him connected to his humanity is keep him connected to the things that he was in his previous life. Or not previous life, like, not Wheel of Time previous life, but before he came out as the Dragon Reborn.

[01:54:34] Before Moiraine showed up in his life, those connections and those points of love, I think, are things that Moiraine would prefer to eliminate. I think she's coming around on that, but I think that she would prefer to eliminate them. But I think that he is not just selfishly, but I think that he thinks that Egwene's helping him hold off like the madness.

[01:54:57] I think she is helping him maintain connection to humans in general and the goodness in people. And while, yes, there is an aspect of selfishness to that, there's also an aspect of need. And if he knows and he can go back and touch someone that he knows is a good person, he can go back and he can make that and say,

[01:55:27] this connection I have with humanity, this connection I have with this person who I care about and I love, that can help me stay sane. And to me, my version in my head of what he was saying when you don't understand, that's a part of it. And I'm holding on to you because I have to hold on to someone. I have to hold on to something. I'm not saying that's the only reason. Yes, he was also being selfish.

[01:55:56] He was also being shitty. It was also a betrayal of trust. A hundred percent. Absolutely. But there is this additional aspect to it that I think that he does realize that he needs some aspect of that connection to previous life. Well, yeah, because after this is dissolved now, of course, we don't know where it's going because it happened pretty close to the end.

[01:56:19] But everything beyond him, everything in his future now is entirely uncertain. There is no certainty. There's no rock. There's nothing that he can grab because everybody wants something from him in a different way. And I think that's part of why he was subconsciously maybe holding on to her. Of course, he loves her. Like they grew up together. There's a very deep relationship there.

[01:56:46] But I think that's part of it. And it'll be really interesting to see how Rand deals with not having that anymore and just having to delve into this life of uncertainty until his ultimate death or victory, whatever we see. So, yeah, it'll be really interesting to see how it plays out.

[01:57:14] That was really well put, Veronica. And I appreciate you helping me see some different points that I would not necessarily have seen. I think just we're all allowed to have different viewpoints and I appreciate we can all bring them to the table. Yes, absolutely. Do you mind if I keep going? Yeah, that was all I had on there sort of argument. But I think it bleeds nicely into what else happened there. So go for it.

[01:57:40] So I'm actually going to I'm going to go back in order to go forward. Perfect. I'm going to go back to the other scene that we see that is important to me, which is the scene between him and Moiraine. And the, you know, I know what that is. It's the Sakarnan. I saw it in my visions. What did you see, Moiraine? Do I go mad? Sometimes.

[01:58:10] Do I kill Le Guin? Sometimes. Do I kill you? Sometimes. And that was like, I was like, oh, I mean, one, that's a very I said I answer. But that's a very knowing adult answer. Right. Like, that's very much like all of those. Yes, I get they're all the same word. They all mean very, very different things.

[01:58:36] But like all of the things that she's saying is that, yes, they are all true. But all of those things are definitively different from one thing to another. Are they all the same timeline? Obviously not. Are they all you know, or maybe they are all the same timeline. Maybe they aren't. Maybe like and I can see how that would be maddening. No pun intended for him to hear that. I thought we were supposed to do it.

[01:59:06] No more. Not less. We come out of the rings. And oh, no, I do. I know more. I did appreciate her line where they both kind of chuckled like, oh, you haven't spoken to me since Rydia. And oh, I've been listening. Yes. That was a very good callback and very comical. And I appreciated that both characters kind of like acknowledged that. Yeah. It was a very good line.

[01:59:32] But I thought that that scene between them where, you know, she is asking him for input. She's asking him for help. How do you do this? Like how? I can't even fathom because we, you know, I think Veronica mentioned that last episode. You know, she that's that power is flowing through her. You start to see like the burnout marks on her cheeks start to appear. And it's just like. Oh, like Jesus.

[02:00:01] So much and land land had to be the touchstone to keep her from from drawing too much. And then his his description of it. I just thought the scene was so powerful between them that she is asking him for help. And he's like just trying to give her a visualization or a vocal visualization of of what he goes through literally every time he embraces the source.

[02:00:31] How do you how do you possibly handle so much that so much of that power? And it would know side are and side in the not the same. It's the one power. It's not different powers. It's the one power. When you reach this when you really when you reach this amount, because what you're using with a Sakarnan. It may not be less than what I'm like.

[02:00:55] It may be greater than what I'm handling, but you're still handling all of this power. It just goes to show how much weaker in the power she is than him. And that was actually demonstrated even like him even more than other forsaken because that is demonstrated later on.

[02:01:16] Like he just reacts on he reacts on on instinct and just blocks somebody else like like with without even thinking about it. He's just like, oh, I'm putting up a shield and nothing's getting through this. He is the most powerful. He has the most power at his will.

[02:01:38] And she as someone who is managed in his view, a trickle all of her life is trying to figure out what this is. And I think there's a difference between the taint and the amount of power. And there is that there's a definitive difference in what he was talking about a few episodes ago where he was talking about the the taint and like reaching through the film in order to get to the sweetness.

[02:02:04] And just the amount of power that he has to handle every time he touches the source. And what it does to his his body and the draw that it causes to him. I thought their conversation was really interesting because, excuse me, it showed kind of a power shift between them, because up until well, almost up until this point,

[02:02:30] Moiraine has been the one with the knowledge and Moiraine has been the one knowing what this may or may not do to him. And when he when he said, you know, well, side are side in. It's the one power like I've I've now been around the world. And what I've learned from all these other people is basically you don't know shit.

[02:02:53] So like, you know, I'm figuring stuff out, but you don't know everything like you, you know, purported to know everything before. And it was kind of a very like almost cocky, but confident way for him to tell her that, you know, you've got a lot to learn, too. I'm learning that you also have a lot to learn.

[02:03:17] So I thought it was a really interesting conversation between them and a shift in the power dynamic a little bit. And I don't know if that'll perpetuate going forward. But at least for this scene, well, until what happens happens later in the episode, at least for this scene, he's kind of like, well, you don't know it all.

[02:03:41] Don't be a know it all, you know, and so it'll be interesting to see, you know, how that plays out, you know, in future episodes. I feel like this is what has to happen. I think Moiraine was earnest in her question. I think she was legitimately curious what his answer would be.

[02:04:01] But I think even if she didn't actually need that advice, if she wasn't actually curious about it, she needed to have conversations like this with Rand. And if she is going to continue to be the one helping to guide him on this path, she cannot keep approaching him the way that she has been up to this point. And that's been becoming increasingly clear, I think, to her.

[02:04:26] And I think her time in Ruidian helped also her understand that sort of regardless of the path, like she does have to help get him there. And there are probably some changes in their relationship dynamic that are going to have to occur. And like we saw Lanfear come and visit Moiraine and again underline that she's supposed to be keeping Egwene away from Rand.

[02:04:54] And as we just discussed, Egwene has been an important touchpoint for Rand. And if she's going to see to it that Egwene is out of Rand's life, he needs someone to be a touchpoint. She's not going to get rid of Lanfear anytime soon from attempting to get to Rand. And so she's going to have to soften. She's going to have to build Rand's confidence up.

[02:05:21] She's going to have to build up his trust in her. And so I thought it was probably a pretty important conversation for Rand continuing to even listen to anything Moiraine says. I didn't even think about it in that perspective, like Moiraine replacing Egwene, obviously not physically, but Moiraine replacing Egwene with herself as someone to keep him in the light, so to speak.

[02:05:51] I hadn't even thought about that. That's a good point. Yeah, I think that's going to be a hard... Those are going to be hard shoes to fill. Yeah. And even if Moiraine does succeed in becoming his advisor, how does that role get filled?

[02:06:19] It can't be a matter of just political advising, and it has to be human. Emotional vulnerability, which is not Moiraine's strong point. Yeah. Right. I'm sorry. Was that the understanding of the year? I mean, that's... Like, that's what he needs. And Lanphier is at least doing a good job of showing him that and manipulating him into thinking he's getting that. And there has to be a counterpoint to it. And it's not going to be Egwene.

[02:06:49] And Moiraine is on board with it not being Egwene. So she has to do something. And she's not going to be able to do it well. I'm sure we're going to see a continued, like, push and pull of them. But she has to at least try, I think. She's... This is the first time I think I've seen her make any sort of attempt to show any sort of vulnerability to Rand. And I think it had a huge impact on him.

[02:07:17] I don't know if that's undone by the things that happen at the end of the episode. But... Well, I'll be interested to see because this was... I mentioned it earlier about Moiraine and her dream and how I have a huge bone to pick with her. Like, she's currently in this position where she's trying to, you know, supplant Egwene and put herself in as, you know, Rand's person to, you know, to contact or whatever.

[02:07:46] But Lanphier, in Moiraine's dream, just straight out says, like, hey, I'm sending a surprise to Rand. Let him handle it. Like, and Moiraine never freaking mentioned the conversation at all. Like, what was her goal in that? Like, did she, you know, Lanphier says this to her. And Moiraine's like, oh, she's sending him a singing telegram. I don't want to ruin the surprise. And so she never says anything.

[02:08:12] Like, what kind of surprise did she think Lanphier was going to be sending? And, you know, I feel like if Rand ever finds out that Moiraine knew that Samael was the surprise, it wasn't actually, you know, a surprise birthday party or a telegram or anything like that. Like, I think if Rand ever does find that out, that that's also going to strain that relationship.

[02:08:38] And, you know, Moiraine will kind of be a little bit more out of the picture because of that, because, you know, she's trying to ingratiate herself with him. But then also still hiding really, really important information. Like, there were severe consequences, obviously, for Rand not being prepared for the surprise that Lanphier was sending him. And does, is Moiraine just trying to get whatever benefit she can out of Lanphier?

[02:09:06] Because if she told Rand right now that Lanphier set this up, like, there's your break point to get Rand. Not only has he just revealed that Lanphier's been torturing Egwaine, which is already going to shake things up. But if he knows that Lanphier sent this Samael, right, to attack? Right. Yeah.

[02:09:31] I mean, it seems like that information would turn him pretty strongly against Lanphier. Yes, exactly. That's why. It's a dangerous game, trying to game Lanphier and not having transparency with anyone.

[02:09:46] I know she always thinks she has her reasons for not being transparent, but I think a lot of times that's where my frustration with Moiraine is and where I think some of her weaknesses are is trying to withhold too much information because you're so worried about it. But no one is ever going to trust you because you never open up to them. So that I'm going to kind of tie this into the rest of the of the scene.

[02:10:16] I'm just going to start by saying I think they both vastly underestimated the context of Egwaine and maybe Lanphier didn't. Maybe Lanphier understood how important Egwaine was to Rand and that's why she wanted Moiraine to keep her away from from Rand.

[02:10:38] But the the I try to put myself in Rand's shoes when he's being told that Lanphier was the one torturing Egwaine in her dreams. And like it infuriates me. It doesn't make me feel pity for Egwaine. It makes me feel angry. It makes me feel rage.

[02:11:02] I like I can't even fathom the rage that's flowing through him with this pure access to power. You have been told that you are the savior of everything.

[02:11:15] But the person that you care about the most in the world, you just found out that they are being physically and mentally and emotionally tortured by someone who was supposed to be on your side, who was supposed to love you. He says he she doesn't understand and he's not talking about this, but she really doesn't understand.

[02:11:41] And when she reveals that Lanphier was the one in her dreams, like I completely identified with the look on his face and the shutting down of emotion and just nothing but power and rage flowing through his mind. And then I'm just going to I'm going to I'm just going to go through the scene. Right.

[02:12:08] All the stuff that I noted in the scene, I'm going to just talk about. Samael appears and blows both he and Egwaine back conveniently into some carpets that they don't get violently hurt. Then Aiel come out of the portal or whatever it is. And so to me, it's I readily identified by the Vail or the Vails. The Vails.

[02:12:38] The Aiel and the Vail. Yeah. By the Vails and the Hooting. Whoever, whatever Aiel they are, they are dark friends and they are attacking and Egwaine goes to town on them. Samael uses his like crazy power hammer and like tries to hit Rand, gets out of the way, blocks and he's like, OK, like I'm getting the hell out of here.

[02:13:03] And they get out and like I feel like the revelation of Lanphier's betrayal. Along with Samael showing up and attacking Rand in a place of where he thought, where he hoped was relative safety, relative comfort, relative whatever. I think he put together that Lanphier and Samael.

[02:13:33] Lanphier had to have told Samael where he was. Right. Because she's the only other forsaken who knew besides the people who are actually physically in the Waste. And I think that's where that like sense of serenity, maybe not maybe serenity is the wrong word, not maybe. It is definitively the wrong word, but that that sense of nothing's getting through this shield.

[02:14:03] Nothing. I don't care what power you're throwing at me. I have literally all of the power in the world and I am going to fuck you up. And when he just literally rains down lightning, it's not like it was at Feldara where she needed multiple lightning strikes or whatever.

[02:14:30] It's one or two focused lightning attacks in this particular area. I know precisely where I need to strike. It is 12 feet behind me. And I will destroy this person who I don't even know who the hell this is. Like I know concept of who this is. He doesn't know who Samael is. He knows that he referred to him as Luz Theron. But other than that, okay, so it's got to be one of the forsaken. Okay, got it.

[02:15:01] And he just lets go. And he says, finally, somewhere I can focus all of this rage and all of this anger and all of this hurt. That's almost like there's like a feeling of vindication. Like I am powerful enough. I am strong enough. I am capable of handling everything that's going coming my way.

[02:15:23] Then the counterpoint of Avienda mentioning Alsara and him going and finding that body. Like I'm tearing up. Like just thinking about the how I felt when he pulled that stuff away. Like the rocks and whatnot away. Like I'm trying to realize that you have all of this power.

[02:15:51] And you have all of this capability. And all of it. All that it does is. Help destroy something. Like the one thing that you really found a connection with. When he picked up that body. And he's talking to her. I think what affected me more. Was. That he tried.

[02:16:20] And then Egwene said. Death. You can't heal death. What affected me more was when he went back. And he said, no. I. I am the dragon reborn. I can do anything. So he takes all of this anger. And all of this rage. Where he feels completely and utterly justified. And he rains down hate. Hate. And damage.

[02:16:50] And he kills his foe. But at the cost of someone. That he had. I'll say he had come to care about. He had come to love. Like that is just a. That is a hard lesson to learn. And I mean. I absolutely had tears in my eyes. You know. Especially that second time when he goes back. And I will say that. Whatever direction that little girl was given.

[02:17:17] To jerk her body. Every couple of seconds. And then the pulsing of the power. In the body. Like oh my god. Like it. It fucking killed me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Her acting in that scene. Was really great. But Yosha's acting. Was like the. The tears. And the. The crying. And the laughter. The maniacal. But then the. Like. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like when you're.

[02:17:47] Yeah. The confidence. Like I can do anything. Like he put so much of the power. Into Alcera. That when the wheel does spit her out again. She's going to be immortal. Like she's never going. She's never going to die again. Because he like. He did all the things. You know. To make sure that she would never die. And I will say. Like. The way that it was done in the show. Like the way that it was done in the books. Was you know. A little traumatic. Because he did the same thing in the books. But.

[02:18:17] In the books. It wasn't somebody he knew. It was just some random kid. He saw a lay in. And he tried to like. Bring it back to life. But. I think that. The show writers. Did a really great job. Of. You know. Having him form this relationship with her. So he could have that. Very. Very. Emotional. Reaction. Reaction. What was happening. And. You know. The fact that like. When he was channeling all of that. You know. He's looking at his.

[02:18:47] His hands. Like. I don't know if you've ever spaced out. When you have your hands under running water. And you just like. Watch the water run through your fingers. For a second. That's exactly what he was doing. And. You know. He was just kind of. In awe of himself. At that point. And then it led him to think. That he could do anything. He could heal death. And. The. The realization. That he couldn't. Was. Absolutely. Fucking. Heartbreaking. To watch. Absolutely.

[02:19:17] Or freaking. Sorry. I shouldn't have said that. It's. I'll say it's my podcast. And. I say. Fuckity. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. So. Okay. I mean. They show boobs in the show. Like. I feel like. They were talking about the hills of Tanchico. For Christ's sake. But I mean. We've seen. That's true. That's true. I feel like. If that. We can drop the F-bomb. Okay. But yeah. So. I mean. In all obviousness.

[02:19:46] Like. That was a big scene. For me. I think it was a big scene for everybody. But it was a big scene for me. Yeah. I mean. All that said. Though. He better go and harvest her squashes. He said. He said he was gonna. Like. He said he was gonna. Do not let them rot on the vine. You have toe. Randall. You have toe. Especially now. I can't leave. Yeah. Until I. I harvest her squashes. Yeah. Like. I know I need to go get all the clams.

[02:20:15] But there's some squashes that need picking. So let me do that. He better. And if he doesn't. I'm gonna. If I ever meet him. I'm gonna have worse. Well done breaking that tension. That make me laugh. Yeah. I definitely. On the second watch. I definitely was like. Oh. He really needs to do it now. No. Yes. Absolutely. Um. All right. So that. I mean. That's all I had. Because I think that's enough. Um. To talk about that scene. Unless you guys have more stuff.

[02:20:44] The only thing I have is like. Why? Why did Lanfear. Send this. To Rand. At this time. Uh. Maybe to eliminate Samael. I. I don't know. And she knew. Rand would be able to do that. I have no concept. Maybe it's a matter of testing him. Maybe it's a matter of. Like maybe she was hoping that Egwene would end up being killed. Maybe. I. I don't know. Maybe. I. I have zero concept of it. I.

[02:21:13] I think it seems like a very stupid move. Um. On her part to. To do that. Um. But I. That's a good question. Well in the meeting. With. Robin. And Lanfear. And Samael. She told him. Well. If he comes for us. He's obviously going to come for you first. Because you're the weakest. So maybe. Veronica. It was. You know. Some strategery. In there. Where. Let me send the weakest of us all. To. You know.

[02:21:43] And beef up his confidence. And be like. Oh yeah. He doesn't even know you're coming. Just go take him out. And knowing full well. What Rand is capable of. And that he would be able to. I mean. Pretty much just. You know. Rain rocks down on his head. And lightning. And kill him. Whereas Ishmael. Was much more difficult to kill. You know. Well. I feel like Ishmael. Was very. Very smart. Very very cunning. Using. Utilizing. Images of himself. And illusions. And dreams. And whatnot.

[02:22:12] And Samael is. I'm going to go. Brute force. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Brute force. Is a good term for him. Um. And. Although it is really funny. It's kind of like. Oh. Well. That was super easy to kill. Forsaken. Literally. Just. Yeah. Literally just. You know. Lightning on his head. Rocks on his head. And then. Oh. No. He's definitely dead. Because he's laying there. And. Well. Which leads me to believe though. Is he though. Maybe he's not. Maybe he's just completely. Incapacitated. For the moment. I don't know.

[02:22:42] Well. I feel like. Lanfear. Yeah. I feel like. Lanfear has some. Some sort of deal with. With the dark one. Like. I think they very specifically said. Daughter of the night. Like. She was given the. The gift of eternal life. Um. Whereas. The other forsaken. Were not necessarily given that. Um. I feel like. What they said in season two. About. Lanfear. Was that. You know. If she can't die. It may pause her for a bit. But. She. Is one that.

[02:23:12] Can't be killed. Which makes me wonder. How do you ever get rid of someone like that. Right. Lock them away. I guess. Yeah. Hope somebody doesn't come along in 3000 years. And let them out. On accident. Yeah. Okay. Um. All right. You guys have anything else. For that. The. The last thing. I think we want to talk about is. Last we saw. So.

[02:23:41] Just the forsaken in general. Right. So. Lanfear. We think has kind of given away the farm. Um. And she is. Let the game go. Um. And let. Samael know that. Or rather. Rand know that. She told Samael where he was going to be. Uh. In my opinion. Um. Samael. We think is dead. Uh. Or I think is dead. Uh. Melchidion is. Uh. In. Had. You know. Had Elaine and Nynaeve. Under her control. And now has.

[02:24:10] Two of the. Bracelets. And looking for the. Caller in the. Panarch. The. Panarch's castle. Castle. Thank you. You're welcome. Um. And. Uh. And that's what we know about the Forsaken right now. So it seems like we are down to six. So. Maybe Leanderin's got a shot. And we found out. Robin's been trying to kill. Specifically. Oh. Yeah. Elaine. Elaine. Yeah. Using Mogidion.

[02:24:40] Um. Um. And he's been. Doing some. Sub-ops with the Black Aja. I guess. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He's been undercutting. Either Mogidion or Lanfear. Um. I don't know which. Like. Or both. Or all. Yeah. Or both. Like. Yeah. I. He's very cunning. I get so confused with. All of them. That. Um. Yeah. So like. That's all I have. For the Forsaken.

[02:25:10] How do you guys. Feel about. That wraps it up for me. Yeah. That pretty much. Yeah. That pretty much. All right. Well. This was. This was a very full episode. Um. Like. You know. To say the least. Um. But I think we'll take a quick break. I'll wipe some tears off my face. And then we'll come back with some feedback. And uh. We'll. We'll move forward.

[02:25:47] And we're back. Uh. So again. We've gone kind of long. So I'm not going to do any news. Um. But uh. We did get some pretty good feedback. Uh. I'll go ahead. And uh. Turn it over to Veronica. Go ahead and take that first one. So Adrian Paul Manlapaz. Wrote. I cried at the end. With a sad emoji. Uh. Dude. I get it. Like. I was crying. Just talking about it. So I completely. Can appreciate that.

[02:26:16] Right. And Jamila Carey. Said. It was so dark on my screen. I didn't realize where child Leandrin fell asleep with her baby. Great foreshadowing. That's a really good point. I didn't really put that together until. I read your comment. Um. Because like. Hey. That's a. Been a big deal of this episode in particular. It's. Poetic for it to be. Hey. This is where she fell asleep at the end. Or the. The beginning of this episode. And then. But that's what we're looking for. Is this in fact.

[02:26:46] In fact. This color. Uh. Luke Robertson. And. So I kind of wish they did Tom's scene on the boat. That would have been perfect to read. Reintroduce them. And then. Scott Combs says. Oh. Don't you know. The. The Hills of Tanchico is a song that gets stuck in your head. Which is funny. Considering what the song is about. I will remark on that. Because. That has literally been playing in the back of my head. The entire podcast. Um.

[02:27:14] Just because I can't get the Hills of Tanchico. Hey. Out of my head. Awesome. So. We have a comment from Eric Emmerich. Which. I'm assuming. Is. Uh. Closely related to. Our other guest podcaster today. Yes. That's my Eric. Yeah. So. Eric says. Always enjoy hearing both of your perspectives and takes. This is another great episode. Hills. Of Tanchico. And that moment where the real meaning.

[02:27:44] clicks for Elaine. Perfect for her character. I absolutely agree. 100%. Yet another way of compulsion. Seems we have a range from blunt force Naomi to deft Robin. Mm-hmm. Heartbreaking death of a child. And frustration with the limits of power. Told you so. Sad face. That was. He told me. Oh. I think this. He's going to build this connection. So that he kills her. And then. He tries to bring her back to life. I was like. Motherfucker. Yeah. You were right. Right.

[02:28:14] Yeah. The minute that they introduced Alcera. He's like. The next day. He was. He. He thought about it. Like. Overnight. I guess. In his dreams. And he texted me first thing in the morning. It was like. They're going to kill her. And I was like. Oh. You're right. Yeah. No. I was like. Like Veronica said. It's just a better way. Of telling the story. Yes. To create that connection. Uh. I had the same sort of like. Disappointment that I hadn't seen it coming though. Because like.

[02:28:42] We even commented on our watch throughs. Like. This. This relationship. Is like. Weird. And almost a little forced. How close they're making them. And like. I'm like. Well duh. I should have like seen. Her wearing the red t-shirt. That she was going to get killed. But. And then Eric goes on to say. I get a kick out of Veronica. Saying she needs to re-watch again. What's more Wheel of Time than a re-read? Like. I feel like. Yeah. Oh. Absolutely. Very. Very. Very. Very much Wheel of Time.

[02:29:11] I mean. I've had to read the first like. Six. Like six times. Because I. Yep. Waited for the last books to come out. Well and that's just. Again and again. All the like lore. And pieces. And like. Even though it's not necessarily. That they're scattering hints. In previous seasons. It's like things that I just wasn't. As aware of. Or understood. Like the. Aes Sedai. Meaning to pay so close attention. To the way they phrase things. Or things like that. That now. Things click into place. When you go back.

[02:29:41] And rethink about it. Because you understand. Did she lie? Wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Makebell Richardson said. Breathe Alcera. I sobbed with. Quite a few crying emojis after it. Girl same. We all did. I mean. Even today. When we were talking about it. I definitely. Ugly cried. Even though. I think I knew it was coming. So I'm right there with you. Johan Drutz.

[02:30:10] How could Ishmael have been in Tenshichkov. 95 years ago? He was in prison. Jean Go responded. The people in the background disappeared. I believe he entered her dreams. Next scene. She was in the dream world. Meaning like fear. I completely. Jean. I think. You're 100% right. I think we talked about that earlier. And. I think we're pretty good. Lastly. We have our friend. Renee's. Voicemail. She did. Send that to us. And we're very much appreciative. So.

[02:30:40] I will go ahead. And play that now. Hey Veronica. Hi Greg. Veronica. First of all. I want to say to you. I apologize. I. Thought that. You were saying. That you like. Maureen's hat. But finally. I was able to. Listen to the. The first three. Episodes. Of the podcast. On. That you all did. And you clearly said. That you did not like. Maureen's hat. It's okay. Apologies. I. Don't ever have to apologize. I like to work outside.

[02:31:11] So. I wear those type of hats. So that's why I'm in love with the hat. And Greg. Clearly. I know Jason Momoa's name. I kept saying some more. Because I'm thinking about the girl style cookies. That I'm going to eat. After I come off of my fast. So forgive me for messing the name up as well. And Veronica. I feel you girl. I have very few friends. That I can talk to. About my favorite fantasy. Dystopian. Apocalyptic shows. So I'm thankful for you guys. Because podcast. A podcast. On all the shows. That I love.

[02:31:40] So let me get to my first point. Modanian. Modanian. Whatever her name is. I cannot stand her. The one with the. Itty bitty ponytail. And the itty bitty. Bang. She reminds me of. Jim Carrey. The character he played. In Living Colors. Her name was Vera DeMalo. And she wore that little bitty bang like that. And that's who she looks like. And I don't like her. And when she glammed. Naomi and Elaine. They were giving all the tea away.

[02:32:10] And I was yelling at my TV. Shut the hell up. Please. Before I stop talking. Please. Don't say anything else. Naeem. However. She did seem to. Think something was not. Something was not correct. When they glammed. When Mardane glammed her. Which is what they did on True Blood. True Blood was one of my favorite shows. I love True Blood. I love True Blood too. I did too. When she glammed them. Naeem kind of. She knew something was not right.

[02:32:40] Even though she was running her mouth. She. Because she kind of like held on to the bracelet. And The Gleeman. I love The Gleeman. In The Witcher. Another one of my favorite shows. So. I was happy that Tom came back. And then. Jess Kier. I think that's his name. In The Witcher. He. He. Yeah. I love. Yeah. I love The Witcher. Now. Parent and Fael. I think they make a cute couple.

[02:33:09] But I still think that she fell. She's either forsaken. Or she's a dark friend. Or something. Something just don't sit right in my spirit. We are still missing our forsaken. Are we? Lanphier telling Egwene. Woman to woman. I love this man. I think you'll understand. Just what I'll do to keep this man. It's like Lanphier. Go have several seats. Because I really hope that Egwene. And. Ren end up together. I'm hoping they're going to be together. Ren.

[02:33:37] When he was trying to bring that little girl back. And he started smiling. I'm like. Oh hell no. He looks so creepy. He looks like the demon. That was in the movie Smile. Which was a terrifying movie to me. Ren was giving me the heebie jeebies. I did not like that. And. What's her name? Alana. And. She was absolutely correct. When she said. In the two rivers. They got some. I said I. Some powerful people. Because those two little girls.

[02:34:08] Was able to heal her. And I cannot wait to. Look at the next episode. When I'm telling you. I am loving. The will of times. It is giving everything. That it is supposed to give. And so are you guys. Because when I listen to you guys. It's like. How did I miss this? How did I miss that? You all break it down. And I just. You all really break it down. And I appreciate that. Alrighty. I will talk to you guys later. Peace and love. Bye. Bye.

[02:34:39] Yeah. No. I agree. Like. His. When. It was definitely out of place. When Rand started smiling. But like. That was like the whole. Like. Where Egwene had said like. Oh. Well that's the madness talking. And he's like. Oh yeah. Believe that. If that's. Makes it easier for you. I was like. No. That's the madness talking. Right there. Right. Like. That's the shit. Will fuck you up. I. I think we. We addressed the. Kind of the. The. Fahil. And Perrin thing. Um. And. Yeah. I think we. We also talked about. Nanyave.

[02:35:09] And her. And Mug Hiddy is still creepy as fuck. So. Uh. All good points Renee. And uh. We're glad you're enjoying the podcast. And I'm thrilled that you're enjoying the show. I'm really. Really hoping. I'm not. Not hoping. I will be. Absolutely. Fucking furious. If they. Do not finish. This show. Like I. Oh. Well. We haven't received. Review. You know. Renewed for season four yet. Or anything like that. Fuck off. No. Fucking. Do.

[02:35:38] The goddamn show. Fucking. A. Fuck. All right. Sorry. So tell us how. If we can have 20 seasons. Right. If we can have 20 seasons of Grey's Anatomy. We can have eight of Wheel of Time. Yeah. Absolutely. Come on. Every episode of that show is the same. This is totally better. All right. So. That was the. The end of our feedback. One of the things we haven't mentioned before. But I want. I definitely wanted to bring it up.

[02:36:08] Please. Go to wherever you. Like. You get your podcast from. Or whatever. Give us a review. Or even like a rating. Like a. I don't know. Maybe five stars. Maybe four stars. Maybe Greg's really fucking irritating. And cries on the goddamn podcast. So. Don't fucking give me five stars. But. That's fine. But. But one of the things. Give us five stars. Because we have. Untoxic male vulnerability on our podcast. Okay. There you go. Fair enough. Yeah. Absolutely. But it helps us kind of like.

[02:36:38] You'd be like. Hey. I like this section. I don't like this section. Hey. We can. Greg says. A lot. Or both. Greg and Veronica. Both say like a ton. I would never. Never. Ever. What? Never. I. Which I notice. When I'm. When I'm editing. But. But. If you like it. You know. Let us know. If you think something isn't great. Something we can work on. We are all about constructive criticism. Like we. We want to hear. What you guys think. And. You know.

[02:37:08] If it's a matter of. Hey. We'll just. Keep doing what we're doing. And you guys are enjoying it. Fantastic. That's. That's great. But it helps us. Reach other listeners. And it helps us. Get better at what we're trying to do. Okay. So after you've gone. And rated and reviewed us. Then you should go over. And check out all the other. Exciting shows. That are on podcastica right now. We are covering yellow jackets. We are doing a rewatch. Of the walking dead. We're getting ready.

[02:37:38] For the last of us. To start back again. We are covering the white lotus. There is a Buffy rewatch. There is tons of other shows. Every pop culture show. That you are into. We are probably covering. Come join us. Come listen to the shows. Come hang out with us. On Facebook. Comment on the posts. We would love to have you. We're all a bunch of nerds. We like to talk about. Pop culture TV. Come enjoy it with us. We. I think on one of the breaks. We literally spent 20 minutes. Talking about yellow jackets. Yeah.

[02:38:08] Yeah. That's a fact. All right. Well. It looks like that's the show. Thank you. Greg and Veronica. So much for having me. This has been an absolute blast. I've had so much fun being here. And thank you to everyone. Who's listening. I appreciate the opportunity. To talk about one of my favorite book series. My favorite show. Thanks for being here. This has been really fun. Yeah. Yeah. You've been awesome. Like. Do not have any nervousness.

[02:38:37] This was phenomenal. You were a great part of the conversation. But for you. If you'd like to be a part of the conversation. If you want to write in. Or record a message. Like Renee did. You can email it. To talk at podcastica.com. Or like I mentioned. You can go check out our Facebook page. At facebook.com slash podcastica. And join the conversation there. And one of the things. That we kind of. Kind of sort of talk about. Is.

[02:39:07] At podcastica.com. You can actually go in like. On your computer. Whatever. And play. The podcast. But you can also record something. Specifically on there. And it'll go to. The group email. And then we'll get. And we can. We can play it on the show. But next time. On this podcast. Wheel of Time. Season 3. Episode 7. Golden Eyes. Is. And I can only assume. That that's going to. Bring to an end. A portion of our. Two Rivers story. Yeah.

[02:39:37] Okay. That's our show. Thus ends. Another episode. Of the Wheel of Time cast. There are no beginnings. Or endings. In the wheel. But it is. An ending. whole new myth. Of the kolejof Is. The Fernand. The Inter och mày. Ehouse. The