25. "Goldeneyes" (The Wheel of Time S3E7)

[00:00:05] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast, I'm Greg. I'm Veronica. And this is The Wheel of Time Cast. This week we're covering The Wheel of Time Season 3 Episode 7, Golden Eyes. Yeah,

[00:00:31] the penultimate episode of the season and it feels like we're starting to pay stuff off. How did you like this one? Good. I mean, I feel like I'm just so impressed with this whole season. I mean, I feel like it's been good episode after good episode and there've been a couple that were slower, but I feel like they give us some big payoff almost every episode this season.

[00:00:57] So I will say that Shadow Rising was like, it was like prime time for the books. I would say through like book six was like phenomenal. And I like this, the storyline's great. And then I feel like they're making this pay off really, really well. Yeah, for sure.

[00:01:21] As I have said, I, you know, and I think you mentioned it as well, like this storyline has not been a favorite, but like I thought that this was a good conclusion. Again, I have basically the same gripes. Yeah. And I have a couple of interesting complaints. And there was one

[00:01:50] very specific heart wrenching variation from the book that, that really, it took me by surprise. And, and then I, it was rough, but we'll talk about it. Awesome. You want to have to hit us with that summary? Yeah. So the Amazon summary, um, as always is quite brief, but not too bad today. Um, it says

[00:02:17] Perrin begins to embrace his role as a leader among the people of the two rivers. Accurate to the point. Maybe we could have talked about like led them into battle, something like that, but I'm okay with it. The final showdown of the, maybe not final showdown, but like the, the showdown between, you know, the, the, the dark ones forces and two rivers folk, uh, finally comes to a head or something like that. Like, but in general, I don't really have any additions.

[00:02:47] Um, I do want to go ahead and address a couple of, uh, corrections additions, whatever, uh, less Greg's a dummy and more. Oh, just so much was going on. We, I forgot to mention it. Uh, I did forget to mention that Avienda, like, uh, when Samuel attacked Rand and he was about to hit Rand, uh, like she like stabbed him through the shoulder with, uh, was it like a flaming spear, like a

[00:03:16] flaming power spear? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely saw it as I was watching it and forgot to mention it too. And was very curious, like how she was able to do that against him, like, because they've been made out to be so powerful. I don't know. It was surprising and

[00:03:42] well, I don't know. I had to watch it twice. Cause I was like, is she channeling or is that just fire? Like it was obviously fire, right? Yeah. She, but what she was channeling. Yeah. So she like threw the spear or whatever into his back and then she like channeled to what looked like two swords of fire, which I thought was weird because she's not supposed to touch swords, but I guess channeling swords is okay. Maybe, I don't know. Um, but I thought it was weird cause then they definitely look

[00:04:11] like, like flaming swords. I thought she just picked up like two spears that were there, lit them on fire from a torch on the wall and that it was fire. I didn't, I did not realize she was channeling. Like I thought she was. And then I like second watch, I didn't think she was anymore. So I'm almost positive that if you like, you know, she shows up and then she like goes like this

[00:04:37] and you see the flames appear in her hands. Okay. Um, so, and that makes more sense as to how she was able to like do anything to him. Yeah. Right. I think that would make a lot more sense that she was channeling, but also adds a new component to things because we didn't know she could do that. There was something that was noted on the wheel of time group, um, by Robin Poe, uh, talking about the

[00:05:03] Hills of Tanchico. Um, and so I'm just going to read this and I actually thought it rung pretty true. And I really liked the, the additional meaning, um, of the, the, of the, the song. The Hills of Tanchico is actually a sad song about a male wilder who came to Tanchico causing three female challenge handlers to create the male Adam got collared and brought to his knees. Similar to how ring around the Rosie is actually singing about the bubonic plague. We all fall down.

[00:05:32] Uh, the age is just right to a lad of 20. His madness would be taking, making him lust slash love crazed in some manner. A coin aplenty could be coded, be a coded reference to how strong he was as a channeler. He either created the Hills around Tanchico when he was fighting the women trying to collar him or was controlled by them to create those Hills after he was collared. I'm inclined to suspect it was the former. And these female channelers created the, the collar and two bracelets,

[00:05:59] two bracelets because one's not enough and three is too many. Uh, his channeling also killed an entire ship, a fleet of soldiers slash soldier fleet of sailors slash soldiers, possibly, uh, by whatever weaves that already tore up the land to create the Hills. But that's actually a really, Hey, you know, these Hills, um, will bring a man to his knees. Um, and I thought it was, uh, I thought it was

[00:06:25] actually a really interesting take on it. Um, I'll tell you what, they have been killing it with these songs this, this season. For sure. Uh, I've been singing, sing for Manetherin literally for the last four days. Yeah. It was, uh, I went, I went hunting for versions of it and found a couple of

[00:06:55] things that were particularly this season. Yeah. So I, I, yeah, I, the, I think that the, I think that the songs have been absolutely fantastic. Um, and it's, it really, uh, you know, I'm like listening to it now and then thinking about the episode and, you know, I start to like actually get choked up a little bit. And I'm like, man, what the, what is happening? It's ridiculous.

[00:07:18] Um, all right. So how about, uh, you hit us with your three questions. Okay. So, um, first one is, I think we've talked about it before, but I just don't remember how exactly way gates work, like who is able to use them. Like, yeah. Can you just tell me like a little bit of what we know

[00:07:42] about who can use them and how I'm going to say, so I will say that the, um, from season one, the lore that they established in season one, uh, a, uh, an Aes Sedai or a channeler can open the way gate. Um, but you shouldn't go through a way gate without an Ogeir as a guide because

[00:08:09] like reading the directions or knowing the way or whatever, uh, can, you know, lead you to get lost or, or whatnot. Um, now in that opening, uh, season, when they first took the ways, Moy Rain said that you had to channel in order to get, in order to get through the way gate. But then we find out that loyal, um, he doesn't need a way gate or he doesn't need to channel.

[00:08:36] He can just use the Avin Dasora leaf carving, um, to, uh, open it from either side. Um, I think that that is just knowledge that has been lost. Uh, I said, I would, if that, I will say that Moy Rain did say that, and we could go back to the idea that she believes that's the only way that

[00:09:03] you could operate it. And that's why it would not violate the three O's. Um, it's not a lie because she believes that it is in fact true. Um, so, uh, and then I think that anyone could go and operate. Apparently anyone can because the dark friends or Fane was able to, to operate it. Um, and so I think that he learned about how to, uh, how to, how to use the, the way gate via the Avin Dasora

[00:09:33] leaf carvings and then said, okay, like this is, it's like, Hey, you just have to know the right button to push or stone, what stone to push or shift or whatever. Um, so that, I think does that answer? It does. For the most part. And honestly, my second question, you sort of already answered it, but I, I don't know if there's more to expand. Just, I didn't really understand or remember what

[00:09:59] the Avin Dasora leaf was. Um, I don't know how I missed that because they literally just traveled through it a few episodes ago. Um, but I guess, was it even really possible for that key to like lock it from the other side or did, was that just a lie? You told them to let him go in. Obviously we can get to that later in the episode in more depth, but I think that was I think, I think that was a lie that he, he had no intention of coming back.

[00:10:27] Okay. So the Avin Dasora leaf does not necessarily, or it seems like it probably doesn't actually have the ability to lock the door from the other side. It just opens it. Okay. Right. So there in the, in the, um, in, in the books, uh, there, it is slightly different, um, at each on either side of, um, of a way gate. Um, there's like a carving or whatever. And there

[00:10:55] is a little, you know, carving stone carving of an Avin Dasora leaf that you can remove or place, put in place, and then it will open or shut the way gate. Now you typically would put it back because it's like a doorknob, right? You have to use the doorknob in order to open the door and you put it back. But if you completely remove the doorknob, then you can't operate it from that side. So if

[00:11:20] someone were to take the leaf with them, um, there, there was at least one situation in the books where they're like, Oh my God, the belief's not here. How can we, you know, how can we get out of here? Um, so that answer your question? Yep. For the last one, I don't know if you have the answer to, but what's the origin of Trollocs? Did like the dark one create them? And if so, why do you

[00:11:46] make them so dumb? Which I guess you could say the same thing about orcs and Lord of the Rings, but, um, are they his creation or his corruption? So yes, there is corruption. Um, so in the books, uh, and you don't get it until way later, but I'm just going to briefly summarize, uh, effectively

[00:12:07] they are corrupted people, um, who have been, have been, uh, corrupted by the dark one and, uh, typically in combination with some sort of animal. Um, so there's a ceremony or whatever, and they go, they go through and, you know, men and women and animals go in and Trollocs come out. Okay. Makes sense.

[00:12:37] Kind of like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, right? So like they get exposed to the ooze and then they meld with whatever it is. And they are also dumb. I'm literally wearing a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle shirt right now under the sweatshirt. Good reference. All right. Those were my questions. All right. We're going to take a quick break and then we will, uh, come back and get into our points.

[00:13:13] And we are back. Uh, all right. On to the first point, Veronica, you want to take the lead? Um, what do you want to talk about? I will. Um, you know, I want to talk about, I think one of my favorite pieces of this episode were the Tuathuan or the Tinkers. Yep. And so maybe we can talk about them first. Sure. Um, and you know, I think I like, I liked them last time, um, that I saw them.

[00:13:40] They reminded me a lot of some characters I've loved in another series called, um, the Kingkiller Chronicles. Um, and so I felt fond about them in season one, I guess it was when we first met them with Perrin, but now understanding so much about their history and understanding

[00:14:00] why they sort of follow the path that they do and understanding the sort of discourse, I guess, between the Aiel and them. Like it made me even more interested in them when they showed back up. And also I was just surprised because I didn't expect them to be who was at the gate at the beginning of the episode. Um, and so I thought that was fun. And so we see, is it Aram? Aram? Yeah, Aram.

[00:14:30] Aram and Isla. And so Isla is his grandmother, is that correct? Yeah. And it was her husband who I guess was killed by Trollocs the day before. Yep. Rain. Yep. Yeah. Um, and so they show up, I thought it was, I guess it was striking to me how, how they sort of mentioned that he had just died the day before. And while they were solemn about it,

[00:14:57] they weren't like as torn up as I would expect them to be. But I guess, you know, I mean, what she said right there, um, which we had heard so often before is the, we bury our dead and we go on. What else is there? And so I guess they're just very sort of quiet and move forward in their grief instead of sitting in it. Um, and I noticed Isla immediately when she walked in clocked Perrin's axe and, you know, sort of had a, it was like an immediate judgment face. Like it was very subtle,

[00:15:27] but it was like, I've seen my mother make that face at me before. Um, and, uh, then she says, so the leaf has blown back to the tree, which I thought was a cool, I loved, I love all their little, like, I don't know, uh, sayings that they have to talk about what's happened, um, in relation

[00:15:52] to the leaf. Like I just thought it was cool. So I was trying to figure out if she meant, because she was being so judgy about him holding the weapon, um, I was trying to figure out if she meant that he came back to the two rivers or if he had gone back to ways of violence. I think she meant both. And well, and then Perrin took it as the definitive, like, oh yeah, I wanted to come home and just

[00:16:19] like completely skipped over. I was like, that's somebody who knows what he's doing. He's dealt with, uh, with, with people like this before. Absolutely. She was, she was super crazy judgy. Like she was judgy about the, uh, the axe. She was judgy about the, oh, you don't eat meat. So I picked them all the bits out. Well, Hey, they are giving you food, but you're not going to eat it because you're a vegetarian because violence may have,

[00:16:47] you know, caused the death of these animals or whatever. Like they're feeding you. I'm not saying that you need to, like, you have to eat it or whatever, but I mean, come on, don't be bitchy about it. Yeah. Uh, I feel like she could have maybe been more graceful in her refusal and maybe

[00:17:12] explained why I was a little confused though. Like when did they become vegetarians? Because, you know, it seemed like they were okay with a spear because it could fill the pot, which inherently means they were hunting animals to eat. No, no, no, no, no. That specifically was what Lewin, uh, Rand said. He said, don't pick up the sword. Okay. No, no. He was saying,

[00:17:36] no, this, you know, you can use a spear because like we don't pick up any, you know, any weapons of violence whatsoever. Um, so they don't kill cattle. They don't, you know, they don't slaughter animals in order to, I mean, I guess maybe you could say, well, that's this chicken died of old age. So, but they're not going to pick up a knife to, to cut it. So, um, I think it's, I think that's the, that's kind of like just the way that it's always been.

[00:18:06] Okay. That makes sense. I think when Lewin said that, Lewin said that, that episode, um, or in that piece of his flashback, um, I thought he was repeating something that, that the Tuathuan said already. And that, that was sort of like how he was saying like, no, this is justified. We're allowed to have this, like, because we say this. Um, but that was him sort of saying that for the first time as the beginning of the Ieolese.

[00:18:36] That was him justifying it to himself. Right. Okay. That makes sense. Um, I really loved, um, good old Brad and Chad, Bane and Chiod, um, talking about how handsome Aram was for a coward. Um, and then just the way they were like, no Ieol would dirty herself with a lost one. Um, I just find it so fascinating that

[00:19:02] this hatred of the Tuathuan has persisted when all of the Ieol leaders have gone through Ruidian and have this understanding, albeit probably different pieces of an understanding of their history. Um, I find it striking that they haven't sort of corrected that hatred some over the years

[00:19:26] because of being in touch. Now I think because I watched a preview for the next episode, I think we might get some insight into that possibly, um, from something that was said. I don't want to say more than that because I don't want to spoil anything, but, um, at this point in time without knowing that that's going to be explained, I just find it really surprising and I will be interested

[00:19:50] to find out if they do reveal more insight into the lie of that. Um, but yeah, the intense hatred of them is, is sort of wild. The, I wouldn't say hatred. I would say disdain. Yeah. Disdain. I would say disdain is a better, better word, better word for it. Like lack of respect.

[00:20:14] Um, very specifically the wise ones Bane said not Bane bear bear said we do not speak to people, uh, you know, about what happens in the city of the dead. We, we don't talk about it to anybody who has not visited. You can talk about it with wise ones and other chiefs. You cannot talk about it with,

[00:20:38] um, with non leaders. Okay. Fair. But then wouldn't the chiefs for another reason sort of correct that like prejudice against them. And if the point was not to teach them so that they lead their people better, then why create this trial at all? If it was not to have them sort of be a better people,

[00:21:01] like that seems like what the I said, I who created Ruidian, it seemed like that was what she was saying is that like, you need to remember so that you like lead your people better. And it doesn't seem like it really changed much. So you as leaders can have humility. You can have an understanding of that. Like, Hey, this is where we came from. This is why we are the way we are.

[00:21:27] But I don't know if it was something that she told them because I don't remember her saying it, but, um, I think that they all were like, this is so against everything that we possibly like live for. Like people couldn't handle it. And if we tell one person, they're going to pass it on and it's going to become a big game of telephone that everyone's just going to kill each other because,

[00:21:52] or like their way of life is going to get on the drain, right? The, the Gaishan who are the servants who have our GTO overall is all based. I think we talked about that episode. It's all based around what, uh, about the fact that like battle and violence and the, the fact that they are all oath breakers for committing violence.

[00:22:20] Well, I'm not saying they need to tell them that, but like, there's other ways to be like, we don't have to hate the Tuathuan anymore. We don't have to like attack them. Like some of the groups are still like killing them. Right. Well, but they very specifically, that's part of their, their, their culture, right? Is like, no, you can't kill them. Like it's dishonorable that if you live by GTO, you should never harm someone who will not defend themselves. Like the only thing more dishonorable than not defending

[00:22:45] yourself is harming someone who won't. So like, I think it's been tied into the culture, but I, but I, I do, I can't understand what you're, I do understand what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. If you're going to lead, lead. I just feel like it ruins the point of Ruidian until we got to the Dragon Reborn to me. Okay. I don't know. But yeah, it is funny because of what we know and how closely tied these,

[00:23:14] these people are, um, that like they all broke their oaths. Like the Tuathuan did, the, uh, the Aiel did, everybody broke their oaths. And the only people who didn't were the ones who actually made it to Ruidian and planted the tree. Yeah. But everybody else broke the rose by not

[00:23:38] continuing that, that way. Um, yeah. So, um, I will say, uh, I really liked almost like, it was, it basically seemed like almost a play by play, uh, reenactment of Luwin, um, with, with the Ram. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, where, I mean like the, the baby crying, I was just like, oh my

[00:24:00] God, I've totally been there. Not like light for the situation, but, um, like, like, uh, on an airplane. Oh, okay. Everything, we're all settled. And then they just start yelling and like, oh my gosh, no, please no. Um, but, uh, like, so I, I thought that the, and I will tell you, I think it

[00:24:21] was a monkey trollic. Like that thing looked terrifying, terrifying. I hate anything that does that crazy crawl chasing you. It reminded me of what movie is it where there's like, I don't know. There's a horror movie where there's like a woman who like runs on all fours like that. Like absolutely not the ring. I think so. And it sort of reminded me of that. And I hated it.

[00:24:48] Uh, like that, like I thought that that chase scene was really, really cool. It was very horror film esque. Uh, there's the guy who ran by who immediately was, you know, taken down. And then, uh, I thought that a Ram did get in a pretty lucky shot given that the trollic was like wearing leather on his, on his chest. Uh, I mean, he got lucky all around like the knife fell right where it did that the other twatuan ran ahead of him and got taken down first.

[00:25:16] Like there were a lot of, I mean, I don't want to call that lucky. I'm sure he was still very sad to lose his, um, you know, but, but his grandfather just died too. So like, you know, Hey, we bury our dad and move, we move on. Um, but of course his grandma just happens to, Isla just happens to be standing right there to see it. And just the same, except much

[00:25:41] worse, disdainful, disappointed look. And it's just like, I mean, my gosh, he was protecting a baby from a, a monster. It wasn't even, you know, like a fellow monster. Like, yeah, no, it was like, if a boar was going to run down a baby, like, and you know, the choice

[00:26:05] was kill the boar or let the baby get killed. Like, Oh, well, you know, baby, someone should have been watching after the baby better. Like what? I don't agree with the way to leaf, but, uh, yeah. Um, I do like, I did like, uh, Marin all of years, uh, solution of, Hey, you guys been pots and pans for a living, right? Well, I think we're going to need a blacksmith.

[00:26:29] I understand you may not make, you know, make weapons or, or whatever, but like we will need some help. And I, I, I liked the trying to engage them into the fold, like pull them into the fold. Yeah. Um, I will say that I did not care for Isla's like judgment of all things when you're

[00:26:54] being protected by the violence, these other people are doing on not just your behalf, but like you came into their walls, you came in, in order to like be more safe. I think that's what's problematic to me is like, it's fine if you don't want to be engaged in the actual battle, but to ask for protection and then judge that they're protecting you was pretty frustrating. Yeah. Um, I'm very

[00:27:24] curious. I mean, we didn't really get a resolution other than her sort of looking at Aram disappointedly. Uh, I mean, she never actually said like, I mean, she's still looking at his face. So she never actually said like, you're dead to me. I can't look at your face. Um, I'm curious if we'll get that when we, you know, see them again. I felt like it was, I felt like it may have happened off screen because Aram was obviously looking very dejected off to the side and Isla

[00:27:53] wasn't even looking at him. Yeah. Like she did not address him the rest of the episode. Um, so that's my guess. I hope, I mean, I hope that means that we get to continue to see this character. I think he, um, I'm curious about him and would like to see more of him and see him interact with our main, uh, group as things. I'm sure we'll see our group come together again and split

[00:28:21] apart again in different ways. And so I hope that he becomes part of that flow. Okay. Um, is that, you have anything else for the Tinkers? That's all I have. Um, the only other thing I had for the Tinkers was just during Perrin's sort of war meeting to discuss the plans when he says no one runs like a Tuathuan, right? Or a Tinker or whatever. And,

[00:28:47] um, Brad and Chad, Bane and Chad's, uh, reaction to that. Like, yeah, you know, it almost seemed like they were both thought it was accurate and funny. Like, yeah, of course they run and were also slightly offended that they would say someone could run faster than them. Like, I felt like I saw both of those things happening in their eyes. I thought that was funny. So I got the, uh, no, the Aiel can definitely run faster than, uh, you know, the lost ones.

[00:29:16] Yeah, for sure. But yeah. Okay. That's it that I have for the Tinkers one. I guess I, I mean, this kind of ties into Perrin's end part, but like when Perrin's giving a speech at the end, Isla's like the, the, the wide eyed look of almost enlightenment that she has, uh, when he's like, you know, no one, you know, no one, the violence won't stop until someone says enough. Yeah. And she's just like, Ooh, he's listening.

[00:29:46] Um, but yeah. So I was like, okay, cool. I have to say like frustrating that she's okay with being like, Ooh, he's listening and he can grow. But like your grandson makes one quote unquote mistake protecting a baby and you're unwilling to forgive that. But like, the way of the leaf is hard. This has always been this way. Uh, yeah.

[00:30:14] Well, I'll tell you what things were done the way the same way for a long, long time for lots of things. And it doesn't mean they were done that way correctly or the way that they were done was correct. You know, uh, women couldn't vote for hundreds of years in this country, or I guess you could just say thousands of years with human of humanity. And like that wasn't right. So we

[00:30:40] worked on it and at least in some places women can vote. And that is, in my opinion, the right answer. So like, there's always a way that you can improve to make things better. Um, so, all right. Uh, in that case, I'm going to move on to Bornhold and the White Cloaks. Okay.

[00:31:03] Um, I'm just going to say Bornhold's a little bitch. Like, uh, I like the, every time I see him, he seems to think that he is owed something more than like other people can, you know, other people need to pay for their actions or their pay the consequences for their actions. But like,

[00:31:30] Oh, I know she was a witch. That's all the justification. No, she wasn't. She was an innocent woman. Like, well, somebody hit me with it. And then she said she was, Oh, with her two daughters right there. Like, Oh, so obviously we shouldn't ever add someone says, yes, it was me. You just string them up and now everything's hunky dory. Like that's just the,

[00:31:53] how is this the light? I just, it just, he feels very, he feels so frustratingly like, uh, what's the word when you're super prideful? I mean, I guess prideful, but like, um, full of himself. He seems like he is. Yeah. Egotistical. Right. Like he's the infallible. That's the word

[00:32:19] infallible. Yeah. Or like his pain, his hurt is bigger than everybody else's. And he deserves justice more than anybody else does is sort of what I feel. Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. So like, and I get it each individual and everybody under everybody can't feel everyone else's emotions and understand what they were going through. Like it frustrated me that Perrin, like Perrin even

[00:32:46] addressed it, right? These people are paying for your grief the same way that your father paid for mine. Now he didn't clarify that it was a wolf that he just like that his father had literally just killed because you know, he, he didn't want to, doesn't want to explain anymore, but like his grief, he basically said, Hey, I went into a road, ran into a rage because my friend was just killed.

[00:33:15] And so I killed your father in the middle of it because he was the one who killed him. So like it's, he kind of like admits it out loud. And then Borhal is just like, well, meh, meh, see meh. Oh, motherfucker. Shut up. It's just, oh, it's very, very frustrating. Yeah. Um, I mean, I think this episode has two examples of ways that sort of people can

[00:33:44] either blindly follow, you know, a long held belief or twist that belief to fit, um, the justification they want it to. And it's just two examples. I think that we see, you know, in our day to day of people sort of not continuing to check in and ask questions and make sure that what they're doing actually like fits, I think the ethical situation.

[00:34:12] Right. And, and like, I don't know, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with religion. I just think there are certain people who can like abuse it. And I think this is an example seeing Borne hold and some of the white cloaks, the way that they're, um, trying to use it for power or to hurt people, but in the name of the light. Right. And so I think we, we see that, you know, millions of times throughout history, um, people doing that. And I think somewhat you,

[00:34:40] like when I was asking about the white cloaks a few episodes ago, compared it to like the crusades and things like killing in the name of, of a religion. Um, I think it's just two interesting examples of ways that, uh, I don't want to just say religion, cultural beliefs, long held cultural beliefs and things can be manipulated or not rechecked in and it can result

[00:35:04] in like bad things happening. Absolutely. A hundred percent. No notes. Um, but yeah, so, uh, I will say, so we, we saw him at the beginning when we had that, they had that interaction that we were talking about, um, where he and Lord Luke came and kind of like negotiated terms. I'm not

[00:35:26] going to waste my, waste my life, my, or gamble my life's men on empty promises. Like if you don't, if the Trollocs don't finish you, we will like, really? That's, that's the light talking. Come on, douche. Like just get out of your own way. Like you're just talking for no reason. Like you're not, what you're saying doesn't even make any sense. You're going to come in and murder the

[00:35:53] rest of the people, the two rivers, if, if they happen to win. Oh, was there any like manipulation by Pat and Fane? Like I know he was like, yeah. Was there any, it seemed like at times watching it, I couldn't tell if Bornhold wasn't as aware of the Trolloc situation because Pat and Fane was controlling the Trollocs so well that he was keeping them out of sight. Or if Pat and Fane was

[00:36:22] somehow manipulating what Bornhold was actually seeing and experiencing in some way. I think it's more of a practical, not a magical affecting what he could actually see or whatever. Okay. I can't guarantee that, but everything that we have understood about Pat and Fane is that,

[00:36:49] not that he has magical powers of any way, shape or form. Like he just started speaking in Trolloc when he gave the order to, to, to, to back off and to retreat. So like, I was kind of like, okay, sure. You know? Yeah. I think that Bornhold is just so caught up in his own grief and anger

[00:37:15] and vengeance. Um, I think that a lot of what Perrin said, like, it's not even, it's not vengeance. It's not even revenge. It's like, you're just letting people die for no reason. Um, like, I feel like that was all really, really valid. And I feel like if I think that's what, that's the reason that Bornhold came back, um, was because he kind of like reassessed him being an asshole. Um,

[00:37:46] did he though, or did Pat and Fane just coordinate that they decide to go back? I mean, I don't, I don't know. Right. Um, I mean, you see, well, I think what he, his, I think part of his answer was like, it's the right, it was the right thing to do. That's why I came back. All right. Let me just point out my biggest bone of contention for this whole thing. At the end, Bornhold comes back and says, all right, Perrin Ibarra, like, are you going to do

[00:38:15] what you swore you would do? Like we helped you fight off the Trollocs. Bitch, you let the Trollocs in. What the are you talking about? What are you fucking talking about? Oh my God. Are you insane? You are the one who brought literally let them in. I agree. I did not understand the logic in that. I didn't understand why failed and point that out

[00:38:43] to Perrin and be like, no, no, no, no. Like I can see Perrin maybe like in his guilt, not like arguing against it, but like for no one else to be like, no, you denied it. And then you literally showed up and let the bad guys in. Like this is your fault. You were who we were defending from. Yeah. So yeah, no, that was very frustrating. I don't

[00:39:11] understand. I just got so irritated with it. But so yeah, so white cloaks like come in like, hey, we're here to help. Oh, by the way, we brought the bad guys. And then, oh, did chaos ensues. And then I didn't know who was a good guy. I didn't know what white cloaks were good, what white cloaks were bad. Like I had people just killing people left and right. A lot more

[00:39:35] of those quick cuts that we saw. But I will say that I was much more impressed with Spider Monkey Fayil. Oh my gosh. Like jumping, like just stabbing the crap out of people in drugs. It was like, she was. That was the highlight. Highlight of the battle. Loved it. It was absolutely

[00:39:58] phenomenal. Like, I don't know, like if the, the actor herself was the one doing those stunts or if it was, you know, an amazing stunt double or what, but like, like I, she, it was like, and then the sound effects of the daggers going in and oh man, it was so good. Um, but uh, yeah, so we did get to see the, uh, fond farewell of, uh, the first white cloak that we ran into, um, Aemon Velba.

[00:40:28] This goes back. I'm going to, I'm going to bleed into another point, but it goes back to the whole healing. Anything, not just healing anything, but like she has had a spear through her for how long? Like, I can't see how Alana is possibly even not, has not bled out yet. She's still just hanging out

[00:40:50] with a spear through her like stomach or her heart or her whatever. Uh, she has been like, she has like crazy plot armor. And, um, I mean, that's obviously what happened is that it just went into her back and then like around all the way around, around all the plot armor and they came out the front. Um, and it just, it was very, very difficult to accept this again. Cause it's like

[00:41:19] the same complaint that we've had. Um. There are just other ways to put our characters in dire situations where we can be very worried about whether they're going to make it without it having to be healing them from death's brink from a wound that should be fatal. Like it has happened way too many times, specifically just this

[00:41:45] season. I don't understand. It feels almost lazy at this point. And it's been a great season, except for that. I think, I think that is the, just that it's so much like why? I don't understand. I completely agree. It is the biggest consistent complaint that I have. Um, It's Glenn under the dumpster all over again.

[00:42:16] Uh, well, no, they only did that one time though. Like it was, They did fake, sorry, we're going into walking dead territory, but Glenn's death gets faked a lot of times throughout the series. And the dumpster was ridiculous cause it drug out, but like, no, but this is, yeah, no, I don't, I don't want to rant too much cause there are lots of really

[00:42:40] happy, positive things to say about this season and this series and even this episode. But yes, it made me furious. I do not want her to die. And I almost feel like that would have been preferable to seeing this outcome again. It's just, it, I will say, yeah, no. And we'll, I mean, I can, don't even have to mention it when

[00:43:05] we talk about Alana later because it, you know, we're covering it now, but it is just like, we've covered it ad nauseum, uh, on another podcast and it's very, very frustrating. It was, I do want to say it was beautiful to watch the girls burn, um, Eamon Valda. Uh, it was the sweetest poetic justice. And I loved Alana laughing in the background at it.

[00:43:34] That was really funny. It was the perfect moment. Um, so I will say that for me and it was believable that the girls would be able to channel in that moment because they were so emotionally worked up from what he had done to their mother that I could believe that over believing that they could suddenly be powerful enough to delicately heal a wound. I'll leave it at that.

[00:44:03] I don't know if it's the acting of the girls. I don't know if it's like, uh, something felt off to me, but like, I, it just, it was just crazy. Cause it was like, oh, and Valda shows up and for our mother burn. And like, then it's just like a husk on the ground. I'm like, holy, like that was super

[00:44:28] fast. Um, don't get me wrong. It doesn't take very long to burn someone to death, uh, unless you try to make it that way. Um, but I thought it was a little bit silly, but it like lit the fire from them. To him and then lit him up in flames. But you know, I, the, I think that the emotional impact of it was, I was just glad he died in a painful way, similar to all the women he killed that way.

[00:44:54] Yeah. I mean, given that he has burned a number of Aes Sedai, we've watched him burn at least two people or seen the results of two people. Um, but yeah, so Valda dying was a, uh, it was definitely like a high point. Um, and it was nice to close out this bad guy, um, with, you know, just desserts.

[00:45:18] Yeah. Um, so, and then, uh, so I've already talked about at the end where Bornhold was super stupid about like thinking that a parent should uphold his promise when he was the reason that he needed the promise to be held by the first place. But I think that's all I have for the White Cloaks. I guess we could cover Fane in this, but that's kind of like ties into like the final

[00:45:42] battle. So I think we'll cover Fane with the final battle. So. Perfect. All right. Uh, you have

[00:46:08] to hit next Veronica. Let's go into talking a little bit about Perrin and fail and sort of Perrin's emotions, this episode and the interactions he had with her. Um, okay. Yeah. So the episode literally opens on, you know, this idea of him being Lord Perrin, Lord GoldenEyes, which he seems to really hate and consistently throughout the episode, ask people to stop saying both of them. I think he's

[00:46:37] not only uncomfortable with the GoldenEyes moniker, but just like in general being called a Lord. Um, and they even hang that banner with a wolf on it, um, which clearly upsets him. But then it was cute that Fale said, no, no, I told them that Trollocs are scared of wolves and this is giving them hope. Um, which I thought was, was pretty cute. I still, I still just, I don't understand why she's here.

[00:47:05] Um, like Perrin tries to get her to leave and she stays. And so like that makes me trust her a little bit more maybe. And she obviously like really showed up for the two rivers this episode and they have that discussion. And I mean, she gives them all those reasons why like, well, your friend already blew the horn of Valier. So he stole my thunder of how

[00:47:33] it was going to be written in history. And so I still need to do something great. So maybe this is it, or maybe I'm just like, uh, a sucker for lost causes, but none of those felt satisfying enough for me to really justify her level of like relationship with Perrin. And I know we already talked about that last episode. Um, so I don't want to harp on it too much. Just want to again, say like, hashtag, I don't

[00:47:59] trust Fale. Um, I want to, um, but I don't. So like, you know, she's, she's basically like a really good voice in his ear the whole episode though. Like he's complaining at the beginning, like I'm not a leader. I'm not a warrior. Like I don't, they shouldn't be following me. And she's like, it doesn't matter. Like if they wanted a good leader, they'd get along or like a battle where they'd get along. Right. If

[00:48:29] they want a general. Um, but like what matters is that like you can fight and you're going to show up and you're from here, which makes them believe like they can do it too, which is like excellent advice. And like, she's really trying to talk him down. And then like later they're talking again and it's clear, like Perrin's basically just suffering from survivor's guilt. Um, not only of his wife,

[00:48:54] which like I think is even more than survivor's guilt because he literally feel, I mean, it was his acts that hit her even though it wasn't on purpose. Um, but like, it's not just survivor's guilt, but it's a fear of future survivor's guilt. Like he doesn't want to see all these people die in front of them. And I think even worse is the idea that he could live and they die. And then he has to carry

[00:49:19] their faces with them in addition to all the ones he already carries with them. And I'm sure he's, when we see him again, probably next season, I'm sure he's going to be still carrying that because lots of people, even though they won, lots of people did die. Um, so yeah, I mean, she was great for him the whole episode, but I just, something still feels off. And I don't know

[00:49:46] if it's because they're rushing the storyline and maybe she really is good or if I don't trust her because I shouldn't, I'm still just in conflict about it. Those are all fair points. I hate when I get the, those are all fair points from you. I know it just means you can't tell me, but no, it's that I won't tell you. Um, because I don't know what they've changed in the story

[00:50:13] and they have changed a number of things, including this episode. And I, I don't want to lead you down a path, um, that, uh, could potentially lead, lead to pitfalls. Then I would have survivor's guilt. Um, fair, fair. Um, so I will say that I think, I mean, I think I've said it before, but the,

[00:50:38] the actor who plays Fahil has been doing a phenomenal job. Um, her sense of timing. And I know that it's like an entire crew, you know, working together, director, actor, you know, other people in the scene, you know, the writers, like I, I think she is doing amazing job. I think this is one of my favorite episodes with her dialogue. Um, because it let's, let's assume

[00:51:09] just going off the basis that more time has passed and we, a bunch of stuff happened off, off screen that we don't know that led them to trust each other. Right. Based on that assumption, I think that the words that she's using and the, the, the advice she's giving him and all that is all very valid. And if, if she is coming from a good place, then I think that she is in fact,

[00:51:37] like doing a good job. Honestly, even if she's coming from a bad place, like she's still doing him a favor in the moment, talking him through some of these emotions. Yeah. I mean, like if she's playing the really, really long con, like she's really doing the dark one a disservice because like she's really, uh, really hitting it hard. Um, but, uh, but so I, I think that, that, that she has done

[00:52:02] an amazing job, uh, with her material and she's like, she's very much like the, the, she's the aggressive and persistent and whatever, where like Lauren, where Perrin is more like laid back and like, I don't really want to make a decision. No, no, no. You just do what it is that you, you tell them what you want to do, period. That's it. They will do what they're going to do, what they want they're going to do. But if you tell them that they're good at what they're going,

[00:52:30] what they're doing, then you're fine. Um, like they don't need someone else to tell them. They don't want to tell them they want Lord Perrin golden eyes to say, yes, I agree with your, with your assessment. Okay, cool. Everybody's happy as a pig and shit. And then we're, we're fine. And, um, she, she keeps referring to her father. Um, Oh, my father's been in dozens of battles.

[00:52:56] Um, like I, and I, I like, I, I want to find out more about him. Um, so like hopefully we'll meet him at some point. Um, but I mean, for me, as you said earlier, uh, and I know I'm kind of like

[00:53:19] skipping to the end, like, but his line about, you know, stay behind me. Don't try to protect me. No. So you can kill the ones I miss. I mean, I was like, and I mean, like I was rewatching it again this afternoon and, or this morning and, and unfortunately I was watching it at like eight 30 in the morning and like lights kind of streaming in through the, the window. And, but it felt like

[00:53:48] such a, a, a sit in a movie theater in the dark on a giant screen. And it feel like, felt like it would have had more impact because it was filmed that way. It was. And like when he's like the, the music comes on and I very specifically was like the music here, just inspired faith. And it's just like, it was kind of got your, your, your hope to soar. And I thought that the score was

[00:54:17] amazing there. Um, and then he hits somebody and then she just comes behind him and just like stabs him three times in the throat to make sure that they're going to stay down or whatever. And then she just like jumps up and it's like, I was like, Oh, holy shit. Jesus. Oh, I thought that the two of them going through that, just, just moving their way through the crowd was so good.

[00:54:45] And he's larger than everyone and she's smaller than everyone. She's like, she's having to climb up people in order to kill them. It was great. I mean, just the way it started out too, like he's losing himself. And then like you said, like the music picks up and she says like, what would you give for like, she's just sort of like that smack in the face that he needs, you know? And they're like, what would you give for the two rivers? And he answers like everything. And you just see him like, you know, like stand up and

[00:55:11] purple. And I, like you said, I loved that he's basically asking her to like back him up, but she thinks he's asked, like trying to protect her. And he's like, no, just kill the ones I miss. And I, it was, it was great. I think that was probably my favorite little sequence of the whole episode. Um, I just loved her fighting style. And then it sort of wrapped up with the women's circle, like really making some moves and her being like, I like your women's circle.

[00:55:39] I thought that was just a great little like ending to that sequence. It was, to me, it was very, like, it was just a little bit too like syrupy. No, I like it. Like it was just like, ah, you shouldn't, you should, like I, this feels like just the wrong timing. Um, and maybe that's just her thing, right? Maybe that's her thing is, I'm just going to say what I think of when I say it. And you know, like it's, it's cool. Um,

[00:56:05] I am going to, here's my other big complaint. The red eagle of Minetheran has become a wolf. Where are the bleeding wolves? Like a call for the wolves or make, again, I think I said it last week, make, say a line. I reached out for the wolves and I can't like, I can't find any. We saw all the wolf heads in the white folks camp. We saw a lot of wolf heads. I'm not saying that. To me, that was like enough for me to be like, okay, that's why it can't happen.

[00:56:31] Okay. You know what? Hey, you know what? All right. I can, I'm willing to accept it. Hey, the, the white cloaks have been killing wolves as they find them. And like, so they're, so every, all the wolves are scattered. Okay, fine. You know what? I, I retract my, uh, You don't have to, it can bother you. I just, I think I just like, Give me something. That was it. But. Just give me a line. Like, yeah, I can't get ahold of the wolves anywhere. Like,

[00:57:01] apparently I'm a wolf brother and I, but unfortunately I just can't find any wolves. You give me that three seconds of line and I go, okay, you know what? Hey, that's, that sucks. But yeah, man, that sucks that you're missing a tool that you really could utilize right now. The, I did like his speech at the end. Um, you know, I have to pay for the things that I've done that, you know, they're just going to kill you when you go and that's their choice.

[00:57:30] The same as it was your choice to fight. And I was just like, man, she makes really good points to him. And then she, he like uses that logic back on her and she's like, Oh man, that's so, I mean, that's kind of the way that relationships work. Yeah. I mean, it's hard. I don't think, like you said, I don't think the white cloaks had the right to him, but I think Perrin still feels he owes a debt. I don't think he does. I mean,

[00:57:59] his village helped save the white cloaks that were not the dark friends, you know? And I think, I hope that that's where things land next season is that, you know, I can't imagine them actually killing Perrin. I'm guessing some sort of resolution will happen. Um, I don't, I don't know. We'll see. I will say I, and I know that I've lauded the actor before, but like, I will say if I,

[00:58:28] you'll, uh, was really, really great in this episode. Um, and I'll even say that Marcus Rutherford, like he has come into his own and kind of like where you mentioned that Perrin kind of like took his own, like he kind of lived up to what he believed or like what he's being told that he's supposed to be doing. Yeah. Like, but he's putting his own spin on it. Right. He's, he's, Hey,

[00:58:55] you know what I'm going to say enough because, and did you notice that he was looking at, he kept looking at the hammer and then eventually went and got the hammer, but he's like been carrying this ax around. Yeah. He's like, I'm going to fuck somebody up with this hammer at the instant that I pick it up. So like, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta be careful not to pick it up too soon. Um, but then like he picked it up and he's just like, like those are two massive weapons for him to be carrying one hand.

[00:59:24] And he just looks giant in that. He looked huge. Yeah. And, and I love, I don't think I noticed it until like the last couple of episodes, but I love his hair because if you look from like the beginning of the series until now, it has just become more and more like wild and more and more, uh, you know, just taller and taller as Afro has gotten bigger. And now I'm just like, hell yeah, man. Like let it go.

[00:59:51] And, uh, it, and I think it adds to his overall like height and presence. So I don't, I don't think it does in fact add to that, but, but I think that like you can, it's almost like a where you can see him growing from season to season, even though he's obviously an adult and doesn't necessarily grow, but his character does. And I really liked it. Same. I think the only thing we haven't really talked about with Perrin is him.

[01:00:19] Um, the earlier scene of him also finding his footing as a leader and as a, a warrior when they are in the past. Um, and you know, he's trying to think, you know, like the Trollocs are approaching, they've just sealed off their little last barricade. And like, I'm expecting he's going to do the typical like inspiring speech. And instead he just starts singing that song. Um, sing of, sing of,

[01:00:49] sing of Manethrin. Right. Sing of Manethrin. Um, and yeah, I've been continuing to hum and sing that for like you said, for the last couple of days. And it was just, you know, another one of those real powerful, um, moments. And I think I was excited that it was an inspiring song instead of a speech. And I honestly loved how short it was cut because I was expecting it to be longer and I wanted more.

[01:01:18] And I liked that it left me wanting more. And it felt more realistic that it didn't, you know, finish the song completely that they were just like, crap, they're here. We got to stop. But everyone was, it was funny that like they were able to finish the verse. Well, that's true. But it did definitely sound like they were going to keep going on to the next verse. And then they were interrupted. Yeah. But we got to hear an entire verse. And, um, I'm just gonna, like,

[01:01:44] I found a version by Jan Puska and Roxanne Janot that came out. When this, when the series came out in 2022 and it is phenomenal. I love it. Um, I don't think it's as good as like the acapella, uh, version, but like, it's just like the, but I think it's just, it was, it was, it was great. And I loved hearing the, the, the whole, all of the words to it. And, uh, but that I'll put, uh,

[01:02:14] that in the show notes. Uh, I'll try to link it to it because it is, I, I think it's great. It's very haunting. And then it also ties into stuff, some other stuff later. So, um, but, uh, yeah, I, uh, that song was phenomenal between that, the Hills of Tanjiko. I started, I went back and like found versions of the man who can't forget that Tom sung in season one. And it's like, man, just these, they're doing,

[01:02:44] they're turning folk back into greatness. It is great. I had to go back and listen to the, Oh brother, where art thou soundtrack and soggy bottle boys. Cause I was like, man, I think this, this is like strumming guitar stuff. It's just getting to me. I want to hear more. Yeah. It's, it's really nice. I love it. All right. You good for parent? If I, you, yeah, I think that's everything I had as a standalone for them. Then I will go ahead. I'll move into Alana and Maxim.

[01:03:15] Um, now we don't have a ton of stuff of stuff here that we haven't talked about, but there are a couple of very definitive things that I really, really liked. Um, I continue to love their chemistry. Like I absolutely adore these. Two together. Um, they are great. I wish that she would stop almost dying. Um, so that he had to like react to it. Uh,

[01:03:41] I wish I could just like hang out and be around for their like relationship because there were three things in particular, right? We're all going to die here. You were right. I was wrong. And we're all still going to die here. Like I thought it was great. Um, I thought that Maxim gave in really, really quickly with like the, I don't like the old guy. I think it's very like, Oh,

[01:04:11] yeah, I'm just the old guy who's just going to be doing the, all the, I've just gotten crappy things to say about everybody. I don't like that. I think it's a trope and I'm not a big fan of it, but, um, Sen Bui is who I remember. The, that was the character from the book. Um, but, uh, I thought he was like, Oh, fine. Go get your long bows. What? Are you serious? You were just training them in poison spears. Like it's, you're just like, okay, fine. Get your, get your bows. Don't,

[01:04:41] don't even have to show anything. Just, just get your bows. Um, and, and then the scene between them with the stewed turnips or a fig and, or fresh figs. Right. And in previous seasons that Alana shows up, she's eating some sort of fruit. Like this woman loves her fresh fruit. Like she needs to have it.

[01:05:08] And so it was just so particularly hilarious the way he taunted her with the fig. It was so funny. And it was so perfectly them, you know? It was, uh, I mean, when he was like, can you, can you feel it through the bond? How much I'm enjoying this. And then he finishes it. I was like, that is cold. I know. Very much them, very much like teasing each other. And, but again, back to that chemistry, like the, the two of them together are, are, are great.

[01:05:38] Yeah. Um, and I love the line about, you know, him when they did finally like, um, you know, start making out and, and him, you know, sort of stopping her when she went for his ear and like, no, that's what Yvonne used to do. And it wasn't that he didn't want to be reminded of it. It was more like what he said was really beautiful. Like we're creating something new, the two of us together. And I thought that was really beautiful, like phrasing and a really nice moment. And like,

[01:06:07] nice to see them having worked through some of that, like hard, unconnected grief. And finding something to move forward. In a normal show, uh, where, you know, mortal wounds are in fact, you know, mortal, um, like that would, once two characters make up like that, that would lead to one of their untimely demises. So I guess they are, uh, you know, turning the,

[01:06:33] they're subverting our expectations of she's going to die because they had this beautiful moment together, but it still irritates me. Um, if she had died, I feel like it would have like made like for a stronger finish. I, that, that, like you said, that line was, we're making, we're creating something new and then, you know, they go on to, to do their thing. Um, but yeah, so let me see. It was the, it was that one. It was the, no, we're going to die here.

[01:07:03] Uh, it was the fig. And then, uh, after her crazy ice nails storm, he's, his response is, oh, she's going to be insufferable. And then, and then like you said, as, as, uh,

[01:07:30] as Valda is burning and you hear her laughing in the background, you're just like, that's very Alana. Like, that's, that's very much, uh, a, a, a, her way. Um, I was going to say, I didn't notice. And once again, like, I really do love Alana. Like, I'm glad she didn't die. I'm glad we're going to continue to see her. But like, man, she decided to take the girls out for the battle. Like all the previous seasons, she's had like dresses up to her neck in this episode. She's like, no, no,

[01:08:00] girls are coming out. I'm going to, if I can't, if I can't kill them with, uh, some weapons or the power, I'm going to distract them with the girls. Like, I don't, it was just, I don't know. I love her character. And again, that is not talking about Bodhi and. She is talking about dress. Yes. Um, it feels more her though. Right? Like she's very open about her sexuality.

[01:08:29] And like, it just felt more like, and I think it makes sense. Like she's breaking a bit from the white tower and kind of going off on her own. And she's like, huh, I'm going to make a few outfit modifications here too. She, she's almost like breaking bad a little bit. Like, she's like, um, Oh, you know what? I'm going to go hunt down some, some like old, old blood people, like blood of the netthrine people. I'm going to build an army. No one knows that I'm doing this. I'm just going to, I'm going to jam it.

[01:08:59] And, uh, by the way, also, uh, you know, we're going to go a little bit jiggly and, uh, it's, it's going to be wondrous. It was. Um, yeah. And she is stunning. Like she is a beautiful woman. And then the way she's like doing her hair and like the Mohawk braid sort of like, yeah, she's just, uh, she's amazing. I love her. Please, please stop like mortally wounding her and bring her back from the dead. Like, let's just keep her. She can get wounded a little bit, but like,

[01:09:29] this is getting rid of it. It would be wonderful if I didn't have to complain about her being healed from death, literally every episode. Yeah. Um, but, yeah. So, so then we, you know, we, we see that she, uh, identifies the new wisdom as a channeler and she like links with them. And Hey, this is precisely what we were talking about the last week, right? Hey, link with me. And then that way we can do all of the things. Um, and she's just like, I'm going to go mess with the weather.

[01:09:58] And she just creates, uh, basically, uh, I'll call them ice missiles or, uh, and the perfect murder weapon. It disappears. Pretty bad ass. Right. Yeah. And once you're just a puddle of water and a dead body, I don't understand what happened. There was no murder weapon. Um, but, uh, yeah, like it was, and then it was really funny when, uh, either Bodhi or Eldrin was like, that was way better than lightning. Yeah.

[01:10:29] Yeah. I was like, yeah, that was, that was pretty bad ass. And Daisy pulls out her, uh, flask to take a drink. Well, I think she threw it down. She was like, Oh, that guy. Yeah. She, I feel like she like pulled it out and looked at it and then was like, I don't know what to do here. I feel like I don't need this. Well, did you see the sunspots in Alana's face? Yeah. Yeah. Where she was like, like burning out a little bit. I'm pulling, I'm, I'm, I'm like maybe on the hairy edge of, uh, doing something bad. Yeah.

[01:11:00] Um, but, uh, I mean, I could appreciate, and this was the same thing in the books. Um, it takes a lot of energy to like change the weather. It's, it's not like kind of like when she was doing the fog a few episodes ago, you know, that's not like, Hey, I'm going to create a little, like you're changing the pressure of an entire area or you're changing the temperature of an entire area. Like that's a lot of power and a lot of energy. Um,

[01:11:29] this one in particular, basically she just made a tornado that shot out icicles and that, you know, I, I really appreciated the one link. Angering, uh, I'll, I'll say hero extra with the, the woman who got the icicle in the neck. And then she just like, they stayed on her for about two seconds. Yeah. And you're like, you're like, Oh, that's what could be happening to these people. They go, Maxim's like, uh, back up. All right.

[01:11:59] And back up, back up, back up, back up, back up, back up. And, uh, and yeah, no, I thought it was great. It was expecting to happen. So again, a nice surprise. I will say that it doesn't make any sense for Alana to come down completely unprotected. Like it doesn't make any sense. I thought that too. Like, even if it wasn't like your strongest villagers,

[01:12:29] just have some like people, they should have had lookouts while they were channeling. right. Cause their focus was only on that. And we saw her get surrounded literally a few episodes ago and almost die. Right. Because she didn't have someone protecting her, even just being a lookout. So I thought that was really, really bad planning. Um, and I was surprised she didn't get harmed sooner than she did. Um, that it took till she was back at the village.

[01:12:59] I don't, here's the thing that I'm really confused by is that like, how did they get up there? If the mountain pass was the only way to get there, then how did they get? It must not have really been, or maybe they already were before she destroyed the passes. Like I just, I mean, they were being more tactical. And had more abilities. One, it wasn't all Trollocs. And two, like just as Perrin noticed,

[01:13:27] like the Trollocs normally wouldn't be able to do these things, but like they had someone directing them. Yeah. And so maybe, you know, maybe they thought what they were doing was enough to prevent stupid Trollocs from getting there without realizing that they had someone who could be like, actually this group go this much North and come around. And, you know, maybe they were already in place before they knew. And, and normally Trollocs wouldn't wait and lie in hiding.

[01:13:55] They would just try to figure out where, like where they were shooting from. Like that was a giant ass spear. I mean, the woods were moving and it seemed like Perrin with his senses probably smelled and, and heard them, but I just don't think we could see them back in the, in the trees is all I could assume. And that they threw the spear from the tree line. Yeah. Like that's what I'm trying. I don't. I mean, it's okay. It's very frustrating, but yes, I agree.

[01:14:25] I, I, because there are so many things that made me feel so many things during this episode, I'm willing to go fine. Like, okay. All right. I accept it. I don't care for it, but I accept it. It was again, like not, I didn't love that Daisy was able to throw up a shield before she was shot, but it was also like cool to see her stand up and try to protect people, um, before being taken down. But again, it was like,

[01:14:56] okay, she just really like started learning that. Yeah. That was again, like a cool moment to see her getting to have like a small hero moment. And also like, I don't believe she would know how to throw up this shield even. I mean, okay. I will say if she's been watching the girls all week and maybe she's been practicing on her own and, uh, and then she's just like, or she's just like, Hey, my need is a shield. And then things start hitting at it and she can't hold it.

[01:15:25] And then she eventually gets shots. I mean, it didn't stand up. So, yeah, fair. It, it, it just, you know, it, it, it, it lasted long enough for Alana's plot armor to, uh, you know, let, let her, uh, get out of sight. Um, so I, I thought it was a cool, it was, I liked that her instinct was to protect. Yeah. It was not, um, it was not to like cower or, or whatever.

[01:15:51] It was very much in the well-established, uh, lore of the blood of Benethryn to turn and fight and protect. So I'll allow it. Then, I mean, Maxim's little like speech to them in the past to rally was pretty good. Like I wrote it down. I don't, I don't know if you did too, but just, he was like, soldiers don't win battles.

[01:16:21] What wins is being too dumb to know when you're beaten, too stubborn to fall down and die and too nasty to let the wheel crush you without jabbing a stick in its spokes. I thought that was pretty good. Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty good turn of phrase. Yeah. Um, his reaction when she got shot, uh, was pretty rough. Um, I don't know what he was doing during like the final battle though. Like, I don't remember seeing him. Like,

[01:16:49] I feel like he was maybe shooting arrows or maybe like, I, I know that he like kind of recovered from her, her injuries to fire arrows into the crowd, but I think I saw him fighting in the village square, but I don't think there was a, a huge focus on him, but I feel like I remember seeing him, but there was, it was a lot of flashing fighting scenes. Yeah. Yeah. There was definitely a lot of cutting, cutting around and whatnot, but you very well could be, could be correct.

[01:17:18] I would maybe bet a little bit of money on it that I think I saw him because I remember not only his speech, but him coming back to the village and saying to, I guess, telling Perrin what had happened. And I think he was out there like helping them in the square defend. Okay. Um, all right. So that wraps up, uh, Alana and Maxim. Yeah. Other than just that very last note at the end of when the girls ask Alana, if they're going to go to the white tower.

[01:17:48] And she says, Maxim has bigger plans than returning to the white tower for us. Is that what, is that what she said? Mm-hmm. And I don't know if she just meant for Maxim and her, to me, that means they're going to go try to hunt down, um, Leandrin, Leandrin, because that's what he wanted to do. And to me, that's what maybe that meant. I don't know that that's what they'll go do, but for her to have phrased it that way.

[01:18:18] Well, I didn't realize that she said Maxim. I thought she said, no, we've got bigger plans. Now, I could be wrong. I could be wrong too. I agree with you. I think Maxim would absolutely be like, let's go get Leandrin. But I feel like she is going to fortify and try to like, recruit in the two rivers, um, to build that army she was talking about and to find what channelers she can to start training them individually.

[01:18:47] I did think it was a little bit weird and it kind of like points back to the, Oh, maybe Alana and Maxim were the, the ones who went through the ways. Um, but like, we haven't got an answer to that yet, which I would have imagined that we would have gotten an answer by now, given this was like the final parent episode. Um, but to me,

[01:19:11] I thought that pad and Fane and the Trollocs having used the way gates was an indication that that's actually what, um, parent clued into when they first came and that it was not Maxim and Alana, but I'm still happy to be proved wrong. Well, I thought that he said that there were like, Oh, it's two people. Uh, and it's, I smell of ashes. And, um, like,

[01:19:40] I thought they were very definitively. So like, they said smell of ashes, but like Alana is wearing ashes on her face. And so like, but I mean, I don't know that like you would smell the ashes on someone's face. So she's been wearing them for two weeks or whatever. Um, but I felt like they were like red herrings, but I still don't, still don't understand how she got there. And now that I think about it more, I'm like, I feel like we're not going to get an answer about that.

[01:20:10] And that's irritating. Maybe they were like, maybe the, the show writers were like, Oh, well, yeah, they smelled ashes and it was two people. And she obviously has ashes on her face. So like, like the deal, but then we talk about like who should use the ways. Yeah. Like, but I think we had talked about like it. Yes. And I said, I could use the ways. It's just really dangerous. Yeah. Um, imagine Shen, the black wind. Um, but, uh, yeah. So I don't know.

[01:20:40] Anyway, I think, I think I'm getting to the point where like, I'm like, all right, fine. I don't care. That's, it's, it's a thing that was brought up that maybe they felt that they answered the they did not definitively answered. Um, but okay. Anything else? That's it for me. All right. We will take one more little quick break and then we'll come back and finish up with, uh, loyal.

[01:21:06] All right. So we are going to, um, move on to our, our last couple of points. And Veronica, do you mind if I hijack, uh, this one right now? You should go for it.

[01:21:31] I think y'all Greg is already just has tears in his eyes. I think just thinking about talking about this next point. And I just feel like that level of emotion deserves, um, to lead the way. Well, I, I appreciate that. Um, I want to state a disclaimer. Um, loyal in the books lasts until the last battle. Like he is there in the last battle.

[01:22:00] He is there 14 books in, he has been around since I believe book two. Um, so I just want to say that losing loyal here was heartrending. It was shocking. It,

[01:22:25] I was trying to figure out constantly how he was going to close down the way gate and get back out. I was like, okay, well, how's he, how's, how's he figured it out? Like he's going to, you know, he's got to figure it out. It's not a big deal. Cause I mean, like I know he survives and like, how's he going to make it out here. And how's it.

[01:22:45] And even when he broke the bridge and he fell to what I'm assuming is his death, I was still trying to figure out like, Oh, he made it through before he, you know, whatever. And it, it didn't hit me until you heard his voice, uh,

[01:23:14] Hamid Amishan's voice reading from his book at the end. And it was very much a Lord of the Rings Frodo or Bilbo at the end of the movie. Uh, and like, and like it hit me hard. And then remembering back, um, when he starts humming, sing for Manetherin. I know. I was just like,

[01:23:44] Oh, he's got, he's got up. He's got up. Fuck them up. Yeah. Cause he's obviously going to get out of this with no issues whatsoever. Like he's not even going to be hurt, but, uh, yeah. So we'll just say like when Loyal left, I was like, okay, sure. Loyal's leaving. You know? Yeah. He's got to go shut the away gate. No big deal. Whatever. Uh, Oh, he's going to take Bane and Chiad. Okay, cool. That's fine. Um,

[01:24:10] I really thought that the Loyal, uh, Bane Chiad triangle was amazing. The, uh, he outsmarted them. And then, uh, uh, Chiad outsmarted him. Yeah. And it was like, so, Oh, uh, yes, I will play Bane's kiss. Okay, cool. And, uh, and they're like, okay, well we play and, oh wait, no, no. But if we, like,

[01:24:40] if the kiss is bad, I have to like, we're going to, enough's going to kill him. Oh, uh, we'll, we'll come up with a reason, right? Oh, okay. Yeah. The roof mistress is, uh, yeah, we need to ask her to permission to play. So, okay. And, uh, oh, well since now that you've met your toe, uh, you can go ahead and go, right? Cause like, you would have killed me and, but you stopped the game. So we're cool. And they're like, you son of a bitch. And, and so the, the idea of,

[01:25:08] it is dishonorable to like cheat someone of, out of meeting their toe. And he's like, okay, that's cool. I'm, I'm good. If you guys are going to go and you're going to die, then fantastic. I don't really care if it's dishonorable. I love that aspect of him. He's like, yes, boom, nailed it. Got them. And, uh, they have to go live long, happy lives as I heal. Um, but then the way she flipped it on, it was pretty good. It was pretty good.

[01:25:36] You tried to save us by risking your own life. So only Chad's toe is paid. But now I, I own your toe. Yeah. Right. Or is it the other way around? Uh, I don't remember who to. Either way. In all honesty. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, it was pretty good. I actually had to like rewind it when I was taking the notes and be like, wait, how is this logic? And then I was like, oh, okay, okay. Pretty good. Pretty good.

[01:26:05] Um, what about that little moment before they played Maiden's kiss that he talked about the last king of Minethrin named King Amon, Alcar, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So does that mean that Rand's like adopted father who raised him is a direct descendant of Amon the king? I do not have an answer for you. Like I, I, that is an excellent question. Uh,

[01:26:32] it means in my opinion that those bloodlines do in fact, you know, those bloodlines do in fact persist. Yeah. And that Tam Althor, uh, very well may have been a part of that. I thought that was like, and then like Loyal even was like, Oh, I love that this show dropped so many little moments like that, that then like, it's not going to come back up probably for a while. Um, I think that's like kind of fun.

[01:27:01] And like makes it exciting to like go back and rewatch and look for these little things. Um, yeah. Earlier. So that when you know, so that when you know the ending and you can rewatch it from the beginning, you were like, Oh, that's why this made sense. Same thing with like season one, you know, like you, like if you rewatch season one, like you caught at the end, after the end of it, you caught way more. Yeah. And it was very, very valuable. Um, yeah. So then, uh, so we talked about that.

[01:27:31] And then he's like, Hey, I'll play. And then they play. And he's like, Oh, too bad. And they're like, Oh, too bad. And so now everybody's going to die anyway. And then parents like, and then, uh, basically, Hey, they got reinforcements coming and I need you to go close to the way gate. He's like, Oh, I can. Okay. Like, like, well, I hate to go, but you know, I understand it. And he's like, okay, you know, Hey, that's cool. Like three, about three, three warriors is not going to make a difference,

[01:28:00] even though there are two of them are ideal. And one of them is an old gear. Like it's not going to make that big of a difference. Um, and so they go, okay, cool. And he said, parents said, don't come back. He said very specifically, don't come back. What three fighters will not make a difference, but one book may make sure that our names, you know, uh, are remembered by history. I thought that was a really,

[01:28:28] really good line from parent and one that would appeal to. Boy else. Oh, gear, uh, like reverence of books or maybe specifically loyalist. Reverence of books. He left the book. He left the, he left the goddamn book. Huh? Uh, so if he, he died and then everybody there died, like no books want to carry it on. It's just what you put all the eggs in one basket. Damn it. You put it in the parent basket, but it's fine. It's cool.

[01:28:58] It's all right. It's okay. Um, I, really, really loved Bane and she had, uh, with loyal, this episode, like when they are doing man hand talk and, uh, Oh, when they're talking about, um, Aram, Alam, no, no, no. When they're, no, when they're talking, when they,

[01:29:27] they get to the way gate and they're doing hand talk and they're like, fucking wetlanders. Like even their shadow soul are soft or their shadows, foreign or soft. I was like, that is hysterical. And both of them are like, all right, veil up bitches. Let's go. I mean, just the casual way they were sitting on the steps, even as the, the, the dark ones are walking up. There's like, Oh, here we go again.

[01:29:58] Like it was. And I love the I. You'll music. And it was particularly impactful in this episode where it hadn't, it was, it's such a juxtaposition to the rest of the music in that moment when they stood up to fight, you heard that music play. And like, it was, it, I don't, I don't often hear the music the way that you do like music without lyrics. I have a hard time like picking up on, but I definitely clocked that.

[01:30:25] And the feeling it made me have for them in that moment was really fantastic. Yeah. Like when, when that music comes on and both of them are like smiling and they're like, Oh, here it comes. And it's Billy. Oh, Oh, these guys are going to get their asses kicked. Like we see 30, you know, dark friends in Trollocs. And when we're like, Oh, Nope, they're going to get their ass kicked. Cause like, look at this. And, and I mean, they, they started getting their asses handed to them as in Bane and I,

[01:30:54] and China did. Yeah. But they made it out. And, but then, you know, like they, then when the, the way gate exploded, it washed, something washed over people or something. I don't know how they escaped, but whatever, they made it out. But anyway, so like the, the battle between, um, so this was kind of like a, a book Easter egg. Um, somebody comes by and says, Hey, Cheyenne, we're going to need these,

[01:31:24] uh, reinforcements. And Cheyenne is a dark friend that you don't know who she is, uh, in the book, like in just some random chapters, like, Oh, Cheyenne is whatever. And I was like, Oh, that's really, really cool. They just included that, uh, included the name. Cause we all, you know, book readers know that Cheyenne was a dark friend. Um, but it was just some random person. It wasn't like a, a, a particular person, but I thought it was really cool to drop that in. Um, but, uh, yeah. So like,

[01:31:54] I loved the fighting between Bane, Cheyenne, and like Loyal is just hammering these motherfuckers. Like, Oh, is it? Boom up and boom into the way gate and just slamming the crap out of them. And then if that one trolloc, he just like takes his hammer, he's like bashes his chest. And it's like, Oh, Oh, made me feel awesome. And again, when I first watched it and I was just like, all right, cool. He's gonna,

[01:32:23] he goes in and he's like hammering at the way gate. He's like, Oh, okay, whatever. Yes. I absolutely had my preconceived notion that everything was going to be okay. And, uh, okay. Well, and then he like starts humming, you know, seeing from an ethernet. And then he like roars off into the distance. And then he like starts slamming. I was like, Oh, okay. He's going to break the rocks. And then it's just going to be like, hang in there. And then he's going to slide through and okay. You know, that's cool. That's whatever.

[01:32:53] And when he fell, it wasn't even that my mouth was open, like in shock because I, I didn't register it. It didn't, it did not register to me in whatever. And one of the things that I have seen online is that Loyal said in season one, that if you fall in the ways, if you fell off the path, you would fall forever and you would grow old falling.

[01:33:23] And so I am choosing to believe that when the way gate exploded out in the, in the real world, in the ways the way gate also exploded and killed Loyal.

[01:33:44] I pray with all of my heart that they don't bring him back because this was a wonderful, wonderful, absolutely fitting Hodor motherfucking moment. Like this was hold the door to the nth degree. No one will get through here because the door is gone. Yeah. And if you bring him back,

[01:34:14] it cheapens that sacrifice. And I, absolutely. I pray. This was a wonderful sacrifice and goodbye. And I pray that they don't cheapen it by bringing him back. I hope they don't bring him back, but even outside of that, like, I hope the door exploded. Cause I don't want poor Loyal to just be falling in perpetuity as he grows old. Yes. Until he dies. That just sounds terrible. I mean,

[01:34:44] it's torture, right? Like you would go insane. Uh, that'd basically be like the forsaken being in, you know, awake sleep for 3000 years. Um, but I, I'm, as I said, I'm like choosing to believe that he exploded and died. Um, or he comes back as Loyal, the light. Well, I know, no, I know. That's what I've seen. Go an episode without referencing Lord of the Rings, like at least three times. I think that, that, that very specifically has been brought up. Like,

[01:35:14] Oh, he's going to pull a Gandalf. but I'm like, I, like, I get it. I get it. The only way that I could see is that he came back with the horn. Like he became a hero of the horn. Um, I could see that. Yeah. That'd be kind of cool. But, which I mean, which I, I'm not going to, I'm not going to argue with. Um, but yeah, he only comes when the horn is blown and I can, I can see him showing back up at the last battle when the horn is blown. And okay. Oh my God. We haven't seen you since season three.

[01:35:43] And it'd be amazing. But, uh, yeah. So, so loyal, uh, like, uh, buddy, like, and I'll tell you what, like, like, like, you were awesome, man. Like you were, it's wild to see the actor out of the makeup. Right. It's really wild. It is really crazy. Uh, but that is a hundred percent his voice. Like he, and, and that deep rumbling, uh,

[01:36:14] base is just phenomenal to hear. It's very, uh, what's the, the, the timber of it is amazing. Oh God damn it. Why am I crying again? Fuck. Um, anyway, so yeah. So, Hey, I'll raise the glass to you, buddy. And, uh, hopefully we don't see you again. Cause I'll feel real stupid. Just like I did when Glenn came back. All right. V, um, you want to wrap up the, wrap up the final battle points. I mean,

[01:36:44] I thought the only things like we've talked a lot, I mean, like some epic battle scenes, some exciting, uh, fighting by parent and fail in the, in the city square or in the town square, trying to hold things back. Um, and then at the end of parents sort of like rampage with his ax and his hammer, he, you know, spots pad and fain across the way,

[01:37:10] demolishes any of the trollocs or other dark friends that are in his way. And pad and fain, the wuss that he is starts to run. And I was like, Oh no. And parent just whams him with that hammer. Like that throw. I'm sorry. Pat and fain would not, he would have been knocked out. I think at least for a minute, but whatever. Um, and he goes over there and he has his ax ready to kill him. Fail yells,

[01:37:40] kill him. Um, and parent decides that he thinks he can bargain with pad and fain. Um, I don't believe this would have really worked. All pad and fain would have had to do is be like, yeah. Okay. Retreat like for two minutes and then turn around and take them out again. Right. Like to me, I had a problem with the feasibility of this happening, but that aside, I thought it was like, obviously a very apparent move,

[01:38:09] a very honorable move, a great way to like save everyone. I loved the line where parent called pad and fain out on being the only one who was afraid to die. He's like, I smell your fear. Um, and he's like, why is it that you are the only, you're leading this attack and you are the only one here who's afraid. Um, and so I think, you know, it gave him the advantage.

[01:38:37] I think his ability to really like sense that to that level. I mean, I think you could tell pad and fain was afraid. He was running away. Um, but I think it added extra like credence to it that, um, we know parent could smell literally the fear on him. Um, it was sort of like a, a moment also of a reminder of sort of parents, almost innocent view of the world where he was like, why do you hate us?

[01:39:06] You know? And, and realizing like, it's not that we hate you. I don't care about you. Like you're unimportant. Um, like the, the great Lord just wants to wipe the two towers off the map just to like prove a point to the dragon reborn, just to hurt him a little bit, put a thorn in his side, you know, two, two rivers. Sorry. What did I say? Two towers. Oh, you had a fourth. There we go. There's my, there's my third reference. I think. Sorry.

[01:39:35] I bring that up only because you mentioned the Lord of the ring stuff. Yeah. The two rivers. Um, yeah. Uh, so I just, I thought it was interesting. I thought it was interesting that they knew the large light explosion off in the distance was definitely the way gate being destroyed. I thought that was interesting because he knew Loyal was going to close the gate.

[01:40:01] He didn't know he was going to destroy it and that he just like assumed that's what it was. I thought again, and you could make the argument, you could make the argument that parents like, uh, well, you know what? Hey, this is something that happened. So, I'm just going to use this against, yeah, I'm going to use this as a, as a bargaining point. So I thought it was good. I thought like the, the, I thought that just the dialogue between them was pretty good.

[01:40:28] I thought it fit with what I would expect from parents character, but it was hard for me to believe. That fame would actually, that fame would have. Followed through with it. Followed through with it. And like, you know, there's no guarantee that he actually retreated for good. Like, maybe he will be back. Um, but yeah, otherwise, I mean, I thought like a pretty exciting battle for the penultimate episode of the season.

[01:40:59] And, um, yeah, I liked it overall, I think. But what, I feel like you, uh, often are more, um, thrilled with the fight and battle scenes than I am. Um, curious. And how much was this in line with what happened in the book? And did you feel like the battle here was sort of what you wanted to see? As a book reader. Um,

[01:41:26] I will say that I think that the scope was maybe a little bit smaller, um, then, then maybe I thought, but to be fair, I also had like the two rivers being a little bit more widespread than, or rather, or Eamon's field, which is what it was in the book. Um, a little bit more widespread than, uh, than what we saw. Um, I did really enjoy the, all of the fortifications. Um,

[01:41:55] so like the big, I, I call them jacks, like the, the big spiky thing that attackers have to get over or around or whatever. Um, and I, like I, there, there were certain aspects of it that I, I did enjoy seeing visualized. Um, but then they all basically meant for nothing when the Trollocs just like came in and it was just like, Oh, what the, what, what the hell? But guys, uh, this is,

[01:42:25] this is crap. Um, I thought this was well done. Um, as we both noted, there are a lot of like jump takes. Um, and so it's just like a lot of flashing from one slashing scene to another. And like, I don't know who's good, who's bad. Like this guy's in black clothing, but this guy's a white cloak. Is he, is the white cloak bad? I don't know who I'm supposed to be rooting for because I'm really just confused. the only,

[01:42:54] I will have a, just a general complaint about pad and fame. Like it's a little bit dumb for you to like ride in, uh, to be recognized, uh, for then, then, then the Trollocs come in. Like, why don't you just like hang out outside and they'd be like, all right, just go rush while they're talking. Um, I just feel like the, Oh, well the Trollocs aren't this smart. Well, apparently Patton's veins,

[01:43:24] not fangs, not very smart either. So Greg, it wouldn't have been as dramatic if it didn't happen that way. Yeah, I agree. I understand that that is in fact the case, but, uh, that was, uh, very frustrating to me. Yeah. Um, and, and then Patton Fane was like, he watched Perrin like chop through or hammer through like eight people. And he's like, yeah, you six people go take care of them.

[01:43:54] And he doesn't like get concerned until the last two or like the, the, the second to last one is taking care of it. Like, dude, like you just been standing there watching this happen the whole time. And you're not like, Oh, you know what? Maybe I should, I should leave now, but you know, like 12 people before Perrin gets to me. Uh, this just see, it seemed very, very dumb, um, and overconfident, uh, of Fane to be like, Oh, you know,

[01:44:24] we're good up until we're not. Yeah. no, for sure. I think it did match Fane's character and what we have learned about him over the years, um, to make a deal. Like he, he offered to make a deal. Yeah. before Perrin, uh, I'll make you a deal. No, no, I'll make you one. And, um, I think that that very much matched Fane's character of survival at any cost. Um, and so it just,

[01:44:52] it just made sense for sure. But yeah, I, again, I thought that I didn't hear the whistle. I don't know. Did you hear the whistle this time? Uh, for, for Fane? No, no, I didn't hear it as you like came in through the gate and he's like, Oh, he's a dark friend. What? I didn't know he was a dark friend. Oh, but you should have. And they're like, what? What is happening? Um, yeah, I didn't hear the whistle this time. Um, but, uh, yeah,

[01:45:22] that's my only complaint about Fane. Um, uh, I thought this was a really well done episode. Uh, it was not the best, um, but only because we had an amazing one back in episode four. And, uh, we also had like some pretty crazy revelations, but as far as like great battle scenes, um, you know, like, I feel like this episode matched like what Falm had at the finale of last season. Yeah. Where, uh, you know, very good. I mean,

[01:45:52] didn't have, it had the, I think it had like kind of the same moments, like where Matt blew the horn and Perrin like realized his inner badass and was like, kill the ones I miss. And like, there were, there were definitely some, some solid, some solid days. Um, so yeah, I enjoyed it. Have I, like I said, have some complaints, have some questions, be like, what? But, um, in general, yeah, it was, I liked it. Same. All right.

[01:46:20] We're going to take a break and we will come back and wrap up with some feedback. See you in a bit. All right. And we are back for our feedback section. Uh, thank you guys very much for, uh, giving us the feedback on Facebook and a voicemail. Um, Veronica, how about you take that first one? Yeah. John Harper wrote child Valda was fire.

[01:46:50] This episode. That made me chuckle so hard. I thought it was pretty perfect. There was a response to that. It was like, yes, uh, burning excited. He was full of burning excitement. I was like, that's good stuff. Um, so, uh, Zion says, cool to see the battle of the two rivers, but a few gripes. Hey buddy, me too. Uh, a ram should have chosen to fight. Right. Making it an instinctive thing, taking it or takes it away.

[01:47:19] It takes away from it being his conscious decision, especially with a baby in the mix. Yes, I would agree. Having said that, like, I, I think that seeing this mirrored, you know, from a few episodes ago, I thought it was, uh, I thought it was reasonable. Uh, Pat and Fane should have snuck off when he realized the battle was lost. I agree. Uh, or parents should have killed him. I agree. Uh, he's all battle rage one minute and casually making a deal while people die around him. He should have been lost in the fight.

[01:47:49] I know a hundred percent. I've actually meant to say that. Um, my response, or my notes are, you are talking while people are dying. What is happening? Stop talking. Um, so where was Perrin trying to contact the wolves? Uh, what's going on? Is Perrin even a wolf brother? I think we kind of addressed that. I think, um, I think, uh, Veronica gave a reasonable explanation. Uh,

[01:48:18] even if I don't necessarily like. But if multiple, if he, if multiple people have that same complaint, then like, obviously they did not do a satisfying of enough job. One line. I think. One line is all they needed. Yeah. why did Loyal have a hammer? Where is, where was the staff and the silly way gate design comes back to bite us? I hope it's a head red herring and he'll be back, but I don't think so. I hope he is not. Um, I think I felt this was a fitting end and I was okay with that. Uh,

[01:48:47] still a great episode and I'm getting more used to the changes. Um, uh, just watched the post talk episode and Rafe said the I yield used to be to athuan or the, but, but the to athuan used to be a yield. Uh, can't believe he got it. So backwards, they kept the way of the leaf, but abandoned their cause. I, I, okay. I, I watched what you, what you said. And I think there's kind of almost like a chicken and the egg type thing. Um, but, uh, I, I agree with what you're saying.

[01:49:17] Um, I think that we should absolutely have, be able to, to, especially when we were like edited and stuff like that, we should be able to say the right things in the way, make it match up. I don't know. To me, I think the, so the I yield used to be to athuan, I think feels accurate. If you're talking about our current iteration in the show of the I yield, that they actually used to be the people who follow the way of the to athuan. Right.

[01:49:46] But I understand his point is that the to athuan used to actually be what we called the I yield, like the I yield people were the people who lived as to athuan and the current people we call I yield. Right. Like I see how it would be very confusing to state. I'm honestly confusing myself at this point, trying to talk about it anymore. No, I get what you're saying. I totally get, uh, Zion's point.

[01:50:17] Yeah. You want the showrunners and the people, uh, you know, going through people writing the show to be able to like, to be like, to really know the source material. Right. All right. From Jennifer Kaufman. We just got a big sad crying emoji, which I'm assuming is about the loss of sweet. Uh, I I'm there with you sister. Or maybe she's sad about young Val that is burning. We don't know. Well, I mean, yeah,

[01:50:46] that's fair. I would guess not though. Uh, Simon Dublow, um, episode was weakest as easy for me. Skirmish was, it was a skirmish, not a battle. Uh, the parent actor can't act. I'm assuming, uh, distinct act of, or lack of wolves anywhere. Uh, I agree, but I'm choosing to accept, uh, Veronica's, uh, explanation. And zero mere draw,

[01:51:15] which we know they can do pretty well as they have had, we've had one already four of 10 for me at best. Okay. Yeah. Hey, like I can appreciate your, your viewpoint on that. Um, the, the mere draw were a big, deep, bigger deal in the book. And, uh, it wasn't Pat and Fane necessarily. It was mere draw pushing them to do things. And I agree that mere draw have been very effective in the, uh, in the show so far. Uh, it would have been nice to,

[01:51:42] to have one and be able to utilize them and see some of their, their creepy powers. Next, we have Matt King, possibly the best episode of this season for me, even with the ending. Hey, like opposite side of the spectrum there. I love that though. Perrin has always been probably the most likable of the male lead characters and a chance to focus on him. Also great to see some really strong female characters playing such key roles, particularly Fael,

[01:52:12] Chad and Bane. Some quality action scenes, even if it got a bit too dark at times. I agree. Looking forward to the season finale next week. I can't even fathom that it's the season finale next week. Like, I know that it is, but like, I'm just like, damn it. I have to wait two more years in order to hope. That's assuming like, I can't again, back to the idea of how are you not going to finish this goddamn series? Holy shit. They do. I really hope they do. Excuse me.

[01:52:41] I apologize for using my language, but I am very passionate about the subject. And our last one, Jeff Haker. Maybe I missed the cutoff, but a great episode. I don't think we've seen the last Loyal. I hope he's a, I hope he's a hero of the horn, not something else. I pray he's actually dead, which sounds really weird. And no, I mean,

[01:53:08] they've just been bringing too many people back from the dead. Specifically Alana. I think to me, one, like what you said, like, let's have this. It was such a beautiful, heroic moment for him to give his life for this. And I want to honor that. And two, like, I need some people to not be safe. I need there to be some emotional hits. So for those reasons, I hope it's true, but like, I get it.

[01:53:37] I would love for him to be with us to the end. Yeah. It was, uh, I've said my piece. So, all right. Uh, and we do have a voicemail from our friend, Renee. Hey, Renee. And we will hear what you have to say now. Hi, Greg and Veronica. Oh, I am so upset about Loelle, Loelle dying, the ogre dying. That he, that was,

[01:54:07] I didn't expect that at all. That seriously caught me on guard. I did not. No, I just, I did not think he was going to die. Actually, I thought the IEO, the two IEO ladies was going to die, but definitely not him. I'm hoping that they're, um, playing a trick on us. Like they did the last time that he actually did not die. And he went to the way gate or whatever it's called. Maybe he fell into another one.

[01:54:37] That's just, that was, uh, like I said, that just really caught me off guard. At parent, he, he reminds me so much of John Snow. He has, he's broody like John Snow. And that's, he has that sense of duty and responsibility. Uh, I love that about him. Now, Fael, I have changed my mind about her. I don't think she's a dark friend, nor, I don't, I, she's not a bad person. She just cannot be a bad person. Please don't let her be someone bad. She is a fairy.

[01:55:07] That's what she looks like. She is so stinking cute. She is so tiny. Like he looks like a giant and she is super duper tiny, but the girl can fight. She's gangster. They are my new favorite interracial couple. Rick and Michonne, of course is my favorite, but they're my new favorite couple. They were totally in sync when she was like, I don't need you to protect me. He was like, kill the ones that I leave behind. Well, of course I'm paraphrasing, but something like that.

[01:55:37] I love that. And like I said, he has a sense of duty and responsibility. And him turning himself in like that, you know, keeping his promise. That's, that's, that's a John Snow move. Definitely. Isn't it? If there was one. My other point, what was it? What's his name? Hold on. I'm trying to find out. I wrote it down. Paid and Fane. Paid and Fane. I wanted him to kill him. I do understand why he did not, but I don't trust him in no, in no shape,

[01:56:06] form or fashion. And what was the other one's name? The one, the two little girls killed. I cannot pronounce his name either. I'm glad they set his ass on fire. And I'm glad that he is dead. And I, and I do think that the white cloaks, the child, child, whatever his name is as well. I think they'll end up being friends or something. I just don't see him just killing him. I don't think that's going to happen at all.

[01:56:36] And the two IEls, I like those two ladies and make me understand how I did not realize until this episode that the IEls used to be the, the, what are they called? The two on time, the two on times, the way of the leaf people. And I saw that in the episode where ran when he killed and they barred him from being with the family.

[01:57:04] And his mama just turned him away. Like I saw that. I saw them pull the mask up and put the mask on their face and walked away. Like, I don't understand how I'm just now realizing that. And I don't even remember you guys mentioning that or it just went so far over my head. I have no idea, but so far, this is my favorite episode. My favorite episode ever. I love the two rivers. I, it reminds me of the Witcher. I like shows like this,

[01:57:35] like in Game of Thrones. I love Winterfell. I did not like King's Landing. Winterfell. I like people to get it out of the mud and I'm a country girl at heart. So I just like the scenery, the cinematography. I just love everything about the two rivers. And I, I don't know if they're going to show parent again or what's going to happen because we only have two episodes left. It's like, really? How is it only two episodes left? It is totally unbelievable to me.

[01:58:03] This season went by so quick. Alrighty. I will talk to you guys later. Peace and love. Bye. Renee, you should really go look up some of the real locations that are around the two rivers, like some of that beautiful, like river water. Like you could actually go visit those places. So you should check it out. Yeah. I think we echoed a majority of your points.

[01:58:30] I'm sorry if we didn't explain well enough with regard to the two of the one and whatnot in episode four, but yeah, I'm glad that you recognize that, you know, this time and then you can go back and watch episode four again and like compare and see, you know, how you feel about it. I'm telling you like these, the show, the show deserves a rewatch and you go, go back and see what they were planning for episode or for season three in

[01:58:59] episode one. It's I, I think that they really have a beginning to end idea. And man, like I, I'm really looking for it. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Uh, this one was a good one. I agree. But as I, as I've said, like episode four, because it did, did the books so much justice. It's very difficult for me to, uh, to, to, to, to, to overtake that one.

[01:59:25] But I would have loved to have seen this like on a big screen in a dark movie theater. And that scene with, with Perrin and Fahil, uh, boy, howdy. All right. So if you guys don't mind, um, uh, and I, I know I mentioned it last, last, uh, last episode, but if you don't mind going to wherever you listen to your podcasts and give us a rating or review, um, please let us know what we're doing, right. What we're doing wrong. Uh, if you're like, Hey, you know, this is, this could be a little bit better or,

[01:59:55] uh, these two, two damn long or whatever. Like that's, that's cool. I, I appreciate the feedback and we're more than willing to listen. And if we're doing something right, please let us know so we can, keep doing whatever that is. Um, you should definitely check out all of the other amazing shows on podcast. Ica, um, yellow jackets and the white Lotus just wrapped. Um, and cast of us literally starts tonight.

[02:00:22] The last of us is airing the first episode of season two. And so the podcast, uh, flagship, um, podcasts, the cast of us should be back, um, taking a break from their rewatch of the podcast. Walking dead and covering the last of us. So I'm excited to jump back into that. Yeah. I, I kind of am a little, not disappointed, but like, I should probably watch that tonight, but it's a little bit late to start that. Um,

[02:00:52] um, but, uh, I, I, I also need to rewatch all of season one, uh, because I, the last of us was such an amazing first season. Uh, I, I absolutely loved it. It's the, I'll be honest, like, honestly, that's like a really good comparison to wheel of time because it feels like what they're doing with the last of us, the video game. And then the show, they're giving you more and they're giving you like expansive knowledge in the, in it.

[02:01:21] Same thing with here, like in wheel of time, like they're giving you more expansive information, uh, that you didn't necessarily see in the video game or in the book. And I, the last of us is a phenomenal show. And, uh, Pedro Pascal, like big zaddy. He's like, he's, he's got my heart. That guy is just too wonderful. I think, I think we all love him. That's our show. Uh, thank you for listening. Everybody.

[02:01:49] If you'd like to write in or record a message, uh, you can either record on your phone and send it out like Renee did, or you can record it on podcast.com. Uh, you leave a message right there on the, the website or, or you can email it to us at talk at podcast.com. You can also check out our Facebook page at facebook.com slash podcast.com, where you can, um, comment on feedback posts or engage with the other, uh,

[02:02:19] community that loves all the same shows that you do. Yeah. I will say like, I podcast was the first podcast, uh, network that I was really a part of. And it, it has literally changed my life. But obviously I'm podcasting now, so it's kind of weird for me, but, uh, I mean, it's been like five years now. It's absolutely bonkers. Uh, but, uh,

[02:02:44] filled with wonderful people who all love nerdy ass shows. Uh, you can probably find, I even talk about bluey with some people and, uh, it is, it is hysterical. It helps when you have wonderful TV out there to, to bond over. Uh, but next on this podcast, wheel of time, season three, final episode. He who comes with the dawn.

[02:03:13] All right. Well, that's all we've got. And I'm excited to check with back with you next week after the finale. I'm so excited. Thus ends another episode of the wheel of time cast. There are no beginnings or endings in the wheel, but it is an ending. No. RIP loyal.