26. "He Who Comes With the Dawn" (The Wheel of Time S3S8) (S3 Finale)

[00:00:18] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Greg. I'm Veronica. And this is The Wheel of Time Cast. This week we're covering The Wheel of Time Season 3 Episode 8, He Who Comes With the Dawn. And man, like there was a lot to this episode. Some parts that were really,

[00:00:42] really awesome to see played out. Some parts that were different from the book, but like I could understand it. And yeah, I thought this was a really, really great hour of television. And I thought that they tied a bunch of stuff. I think it was really, really jam-packed. I would have loved them giving us like an extra 20 minutes or something like that.

[00:01:07] Yeah. But I mean, I really liked this episode. Same. I thought it was great. I thought we got a lot of really satisfying answers and reveals and progression in the storyline, but still a lot of mystery and a lot of things that are making me angry that we have to wait, hopefully, to like, I don't want to wait two more years, but also I'm

[00:01:33] hopeful that we're getting a season four for sure. And so I just don't want to have to wait, but I'm really excited about what they did with the season overall and this finale. Yeah. I really thought this season ended up being like a step up and not that the first two were bad because you had to do a lot of world building. You had to do a lot of character building. But

[00:01:58] I thought that this season really kind of launched a lot of those storylines and introduced some new characters and really kind of made them quality. And I thought they did a really good job. Yeah. All right. You want to hit us with the Amazon summary? Yeah. So Amazon says, Nineve, Elaine, Matt, and Min confront the Black Aja and their futures.

[00:02:27] Moiraine and Lan prepare to face their fate. Rand and Egwene set their destinies in motion. Which is basically, I think they could have just listed every single character's name and said, like, confront or prepare for the future because they basically said the same thing three different ways. But the only thing I feel like they're missing is no mention of Swan or the White Tower or,

[00:02:51] you know, Elida and Swan playing off each other or something. Politics in the White Tower continue to raise tensions or something like that. Yeah. But otherwise, yeah. Just to acknowledge that they were in the episode. Yeah. How did you like this one? I mean, I know you said you liked this in general. Like, were there any, was there anything that you were just like, man, that was amazing or,

[00:03:20] oh, that was horrible or whatever? You know, I think I'm very excited to revisit Tanchico. I think that continues to be a really fun background and storyline this season. And so I'm really excited to talk about that several different pieces about that. And then, I don't know, it felt like an episode where we're

[00:03:45] really showcasing the amount of power that our, like, heroes, our so-called heroes have. And that felt exciting. And even though there wasn't the same, you know, both season one and season two ended with this, like, bang of a major fight with, like, major powers. And we did get a small, like, a small, like, standoff fight. So we didn't see have that moment of, like, all the

[00:04:13] combined power and action, like, we have really at the end of both the other two seasons. But I still think we got a show of their power and enough so that it makes me excited for when they all really, like, are together using it in the future, hopefully. So at the end of season one, we, you know, they had, you know, Rand and then basically Faldara, right? And then at the end of season two, obviously everybody converged on Falm.

[00:04:43] And in this season, like, they finished Perrin last episode, and then they were finishing Matt, Nineyave, Elaine, you know, after introducing new aspects of the storyline and new complications. And, like, I think they've done a very good job with as many characters as they have and as many storylines as they have, cutting what they needed to, and then being able to give,

[00:05:11] like, what's up with this? Like, give you curiosity with each individual thing. Do I have some, what I believe are departures of character? Yes, absolutely. Do I have some minor gripes? I do. But walking away from this episode, my only complaint is that I've got to wait until the next season comes out. Yeah.

[00:05:36] But, all right. So, all right, how about we move into your questions? What you got? Absolutely. So, first, what is Balefire? Is Balefire Hellfire? We haven't really talked about there being a hell in this world where your soul is reborn. So, that doesn't make sense. So, what do you know about Balefire? Okay, so, they kind of sort of said it.

[00:06:05] But I'm going to elaborate for those, for people who don't have any concept of what it is, right? So, this world is based around the wheel, right? And threads of, threads in the loom or the wheel, they're woven together into actions. That's what we've kind of, like, understood, right?

[00:06:29] Right. So, like, Taverin or Taverin are individuals who are threads that, like, move the pattern around them. Things will move towards them or events will do it. Is that about, is that about correct as to whether you understand it? I mean, I don't know if I could have even put it into words like that, but sure. Okay. Yeah, focus points. It doesn't feel contradictory to anything.

[00:06:58] Focus points. I mean, that's what Patton fans said, right? Your Taverin, you know, your focus, focal points for the wheel. So, if you consider each person's life, that they are spinning, that they are a thread, right? And then you have a tapestry with all these people weaving together.

[00:07:19] The idea of Balefire is you are burning that person's thread out of the pattern. Cool. So, and Balefire was actually introduced, I believe it was in The Eye of the World, the first of the books. It was introduced and very specifically, it was said,

[00:07:49] we, yeah, and it was used by an Aes Sedai and it was specifically said, I will not teach anyone this because it is not, it is too risky to mess around with. Because the idea of Balefire, the reason that you saw Jean, like, almost like her ghost or her soul or whatever, like, back up, and then, like, you saw what she did by knocking down the roof,

[00:08:18] and then that all repaired itself. What's happening is when Elaine hit her with the Balefire, it erased whatever actions she did for a certain period of time up until her death. Wow. Okay. That explains that a lot. I didn't understand. Oh, I can't, I can't fathom that you would, that anybody would. It was really cool to see.

[00:08:45] There is a scene, I believe it is the end of book five. There is a scene with Balefire that is very significant and it is really cool. And I, I don't know if they're going to do it or not. But it was like the, the, the concept of it was like earth shattering.

[00:09:13] Um, and I don't really want to talk too much more about it, but basically like Balefire, uh, would be like, Hey, if you use a little bit, right, if you hit them with like a pencil and what it was, uh, what it was visualized in the book is that it was like a, you know, like a pencil thin white bar of light and whatever it struck, it burned from the pattern. Um, and, and so, you know,

[00:09:42] you hit a person with a little tiny one perspective of Jean, like just like sitting there messing around with it, like into a whole different perspective of like, you are dangerous because you're dumb. Well, that's where, where Leandrin was saying, like she was like, put, I thought Leandrin was just being like bossy, you know? I mean, I knew she was being serious, but yeah. So it's a, it's a, it's big. So like a small pencil thin, you know,

[00:10:12] removes a few seconds or a minute, but you could, if the more power that you use, the further back it burns the person's thread. And so the more actions it removes, um, from their, their life. Um, so yes, that is Balefire. Does that answer your question? It does. Okay. And more than I was expecting. Okay. Next. Can all the forsaken, like,

[00:10:41] I don't know what the word for it is in this universe, like fast travel, disapparate. I don't know. Sorry, I'm playing a video game. So fast travel. And like, can anyone else obtain this power? Or is this strictly known to be like what forsaken can do and everyone else either has to use like a way gate or a horse? Um, it is absolutely learnable to other people. Um,

[00:11:09] it may be an aspect of the, like the dark power or whatever the dark ones power is. Um, because we haven't seen, we haven't seen anybody, you know, any other ice that I use it. We haven't physically seen them use it. Um, not to say that it hasn't happened. Like I know that people were talking about, um, Alana and Hey, can she travel? Um, that's what it's called.

[00:11:39] It's called traveling. And it's basically cutting almost like a warp hole in the pattern to transport yourself from one place to another. Um, but in the books, it is something that anybody can learn, but we don't see any of the weaves or any of the way that it was made or anything like that. Um, the, when the Forsaken have done it. So, uh, I imagine it was common in the age of legends, um,

[00:12:08] but just not so much anymore. Okay. All right. Um, so that makes sense. Now, my other question was kind of split on a few, but I think I'll just go with this one. I don't know how much of like the rules around the dream world, like this was in the book, like all this dream traveling stuff. Yep. Correct. Okay.

[00:12:35] So what they had established previously, or I thought I understood about your power in the dream world is that if it's your own dream, you are the most powerful. And this episode, Egwene seemed to still be quite powerful in someone else's dream. I was just trying to understand if that was, um, in conflict to what they had said. And like a mistake of the show,

[00:13:05] or is Egwene really that much more powerful than Lanfear? Like I was just, I didn't understand. I will say that. Here's the way I explained it in my head. Here's how I made it. Okay. With me. Um, Egwene and Rand were like, they literally had this plan cooked up between them. and my, what,

[00:13:31] the way I'm justifying it in to me is that Egwene gave Rand. I'm sorry. Rain Rand gave Egwene full control, like full permission. he basically, his belief was that Egwene could do anything that she wanted, uh, in his dream. He, she, he believed that she could defeat Lanfear. Okay. And because he, he believed it.

[00:14:01] And then she exerted her will to get rid of Lanfear. Yes, they were able to, like I said, it, it is a bit of a stretch. I do understand what you're saying. Like, I guess you could maybe like, Oh, well, were they in Rand's dream? Were they like pretending to be in Rand's dream? They're actually in Egwene's dream. Like you could definitely like inception it. Uh, like we, Oh, it's a dream within a dream with a dream or whatever. But. Yeah. My, my, uh, my, my, my thing is,

[00:14:30] Rand knew Egwene was coming in. He believed, you know, he had the belief that she could do whatever she wanted. And so she could. Okay. Can I cheat and ask a fourth question? Um, and I think this sort of goes along with the idea of asking if fast travel was limited to forsaken. I realize we're just supposed to call it travel, but fast travel is more appropriate. Um, what about compulsion? Um,

[00:15:01] is that something? Well, I guess two parter. Is that something? I mean, this episode, Tom literally said, if they're using compulsion, if they're able to do that, they have to be forsaken. And so at least in this iteration of the world, there are some people who believe it's limited to forsaken, but one, is that true? And two, even if it was possible for an eye to die to use compulsion, if they weren't a dark friend,

[00:15:27] would it be going against their O's to use compulsion against people to get them to do things? So I'm going to, I'm going to address this in a couple of different aspects. Um, I will say that Tom would think that it would be a forsaken specifically because one, one, the knowledge was from the age of legends and to the moral guidelines that would

[00:15:54] require you to be able to do it would be that an ice to die. Couldn't do it because of the three oaths. Um, because you could make the argument that I will not use the one power as a weapon. Well, uh, if I'm not going to use the one power as a weapon, except in the defense of, you know, another ice to die or, uh, my warder or against dark friends or whatever. Um, you could make the,

[00:16:23] I think that that gives you enough leeway that you could compel, but I feel like if you understood that it was wrong, then that would, the three O's would prevent you from doing that. And so based on that, and if Tom was in Morghese's court and around a Lida, um, you know, years and years ago, um, then he would, I imagine be very familiar with some of the rules and regulations.

[00:16:53] And then Morghese also trained in the tower. So if he was close enough to promise Morghese that he would take care of her daughter or keep her daughter safe, then it would make, make sense that, uh, Tom would have some background in ice and I politics, rules, et cetera. Okay. That, did that answer those? Yeah, I get some. Okay, cool. All right. Well, in that case, uh, we'll take a quick break, uh, and then we'll come back for our points.

[00:17:38] We are back. All right. So, Veronica, if you don't mind, I'm going to, uh, start off. I, I want to talk about the, the cold open. Um, it was really cool to see this. Do you mind? Yeah, go for it. All right. So, um, so we, we open on the, you know, on the tower 10 years ago and I was actually really grateful to see this. I know that we had discussions about like, when did this happen? Like when did Swan become Amarlin? Uh huh. Um, I,

[00:18:06] it makes me wonder about the circumstances of the former Amarlin's, uh, death. Like what happened four years after she took power? Uh, she is now gone. And so now we have to like, did, was it engineered by someone? Did like what happened? But regardless, what we saw was, um, a much younger, I say much, but like the,

[00:18:33] the comparison is almost like seeing pre and post presidency Obama. Um, if you look at Barack Obama in 2008, 2007, 2008, and then you look at him in 2016, like he looks like a completely different person, very much like more tired and more, uh, just run down. And if you see Swan in this scene, that's like 2008 Obama. And then current day Obama is, um,

[00:19:02] or rather I was like current day Swan is Obama post presidency. Cause she's just very much more rundown. Um, you can tell that the, in this episode. Oh yeah, that's true. Um, but, uh, but yeah, so, so we see that we, Hey, it only takes 11 sitters. Um, and if we say that we have, um, I'm just gonna, I'm going to count them again. Cause if for some reason I feel like there were eight, Ajahs,

[00:19:32] there's either seven or eight. So there's green, blue, yellow, um, red, white, gray, Brown, Brown. Is that it? I mean, and then black obviously, but that's not, they don't, they don't sew that onto the, the emerald stole. Um, so I guess there's only seven. So that means that there are 21 sitters. There are three sitters per Ajah. And so that means that you,

[00:20:01] you only have to have half. You have to have a sit. It's a majority. Exactly. Yeah. So you have to have a simple majority, uh, 11 sitters to vote for, to succeed, um, in a, in a vote. And we saw that it was, you know, during that vote for the Amber one. And then it was, uh, later on, you had a, you know, you had a minimum of 11 sitters required by law, um, for the vote later. So that was cool. Um, and, uh,

[00:20:30] then we see that Swan only has four sitters that are standing for her. Uh, so you saw Varen and then all three blues. Um, and then all VR, who we saw had a conversation with a light of earlier when a lot of steps out of this doorway, um, with that bracelet that we, that we saw her talk to men about. Um, and, um, and we see all of our, and like, if you use it from the context of this scene,

[00:20:59] like maybe it makes sense logically that you shouldn't elect a person to power who is willing to take these risks on the day that they are going to be, um, that they're, that they're going up for a vote. Um, so maybe a logic did dictate that she didn't vote for a Lida at that point. And then once all VR went and then the other whites went and then everybody else started going, uh, you saw Karini, uh,

[00:21:26] the green who died in season one. Uh, so I thought it was really cool seeing that actor again. Um, I was, I was glad to see her. And then, um, you saw that Leanne was a sitter for the blue. Leanne. Yeah. Leanne. Right. Leanne. Uh, and then Leandrin was a sitter for the red. Yep. Um, who she was obviously going to support, um, her red sister in Elida.

[00:21:56] Um, but so we had talked about this, you know, a while back, like, how does this process happen? Is it, and it basically is, it's a simple majority, very similar to our Congress, except for us, it's two 70 and for, um, and for them, it was 11 of the, a simple majority of sit, uh, specifically of centers, not of the tower. Yeah. I thought it was really interesting the way that it played out and the way that, um, the white sitter, uh,

[00:22:27] LVR and decided to play that. And like, I think by the third watch, I was finally convinced she was just doing it to sort of prove a point to Elida, like really show her, like I was going to vote for you and you messed it up kind of. And then because the white Aja is so respected for being logical and sort

[00:22:53] of wise and decision-making that those three white sitters all sort of standing up led to the other people then jumping in. But the first times I watched it, I wasn't fully convinced that like, there wasn't like some compulsion going on or something, especially with like the weird glances around the hall. And like, I guess I'm still like, there's still like a small percentage of me that doesn't feel convinced that

[00:23:21] there wasn't something more complicated going on, but like recognizing it could have just been this simple, like proving a point to you. And now people are coming behind me because they respect my decision. So I don't know. I don't know if you had similar misgivings or if you questioned it at all. So I would say on first watch, I, like I said, I kind of picked up the idea that it was like,

[00:23:48] if you're going to be this reckless on this most very important day, then that tells me you're going to be reckless with the tower. And I can't trust that to logic. And I think that makes probably the most sense to, um, it could there be something else? Check. And we'll talk about it a little bit later, but there were, you know, Alviar and kind of gave me some, some weirdness that I either have a question about, or I have some, uh, consistency issues, um, with the, the show overall. Um,

[00:24:19] but, uh, yeah, so we, and we see, you know, Moiraine is in the tower and Swan and her, like, they're very, being very like blatant about their looks towards each other. And Elida is clocking it. But it's like, okay, if Elida is clocking it, she's not the only one among this hall of very highly intelligent, skeptical women leaders. Like I did feel like, okay, like the big reveal of Swan finally admitting to loving Moiraine.

[00:24:48] I don't think anyone was going to really be surprised about that based on the way you two have acted, but okay. Right now, don't get me wrong. Like the last 10 years, they may have done some stuff that, uh, that, you know, when she, she banished, exiled her from the tower and, you know, they may have done things, uh, publicly, um, that kind of like remove that, yeah, remove that, that potential for favor. But yeah, I thought it was like, I, I really, I appreciated, I,

[00:25:18] I appreciate all of the old scenes in the tower. Yeah. Uh, I love seeing the history and the lore kind of come to life. And again, these are not things that we saw in there. We read about in the books. So it's, it's expansive to me and it's new to me. And I very much appreciate the fact that they put that in a medium that I could visually watch it. I thought it was really, really cool. Uh, that's, I mean, that's all I have for that, that opening, that cold open. Um,

[00:25:47] do you have anything else? I mean, I think just, I appreciated that this gave us this insight into the Elfin, Elfin scenario that we'll encounter later with Matt. And that, you know, she said, like, we got these tidbits like that, what she, her promise she got back was the Amarillo seat. Um, and then we saw that she didn't get the Amarillo seat on the timeline she was expecting. Um,

[00:26:17] and how we got an insight into how the other eyes and I probably feel about this and how dangerous it is because she said, many sisters haven't come back out of this. Um, um, and so I think for just like a brief little snippet, it gave us a lot of important information, um, about what, and I, and I want to very definitively address that. If you didn't have subtitles on, you might have read,

[00:26:46] or might, might have heard the fin. And so Elida went through the redstone doorway in the tower and she was referred to the aelfin, A-E-L-F-I-N-N. Matt goes through and that creature says, I am eelfin, E-E-F-E-E-L-F-I-N-N.

[00:27:12] So they are different species, characters, whatever, maybe, maybe in the same world, but are the same, like, um, they're different subsets. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Um, so that those are different. They're similar doorways, but different, uh, creatures. Um, so what's funny about this is that back in the day, um, when I was reading,

[00:27:43] uh, when I, I mean, I'm still a big nerd, but, uh, when I was playing, I was playing World of War, Warcraft. And, um, one of my, like one of my characters that I had created was like called Tywin because I was reading a song of ice and fire. And, you know, Tyrion was like, uh, already taken. So I like went through like obscure names. Well, I used the name Elfin for one of my characters. That's cool. Uh, so again, seeing it come to life on, you know,

[00:28:12] 20 years later is, is, is really, is really, really fun for me. Nice. Um, yeah, actually, since we're already talking about this, um, you know, I know we were going to next move into talking about 10 Chico. Yeah. Do you want to just keep talking about the Elfin Elfin and talk about Matt and Min? And yeah, you want to go ahead and start, start, you know, talk about what you want to talk about. I loved this. Like I,

[00:28:37] I loved the Elfin Elfin introduction of this episode and 10 Chico was already like something I was very excited about. I was wondering if we were going to get more of just like a standalone episode, just of the IEL waste. And so I was very excited that we also got this storyline in 10 Chico. And, I particularly have just grown to sort of adore Matt's character and Matt and Min's growing relationship.

[00:29:06] And so, you know, when everyone goes into the palace and all our group and 10 Chico sort of splits up Matt and Min being together, um, and sort of going through this and then Matt falling into the mirror and we're meeting this new, like mysterious creature that feels very like fey to me. Like I think weird, dangerous, magical creatures that are both like always very tricky,

[00:29:35] like trickster type characters. I think you see those a lot in like stories that involve the fey. And so, I don't know. I just really loved, um, meeting the Elfin, even though he's very, very creepy. Um, and I love that there was like, obviously a lot of obscure like rules and we don't, we didn't really get into the depth of them, but there were like hints. So like, obviously he's asking Matt, like, what is your need? He explains nothing.

[00:30:03] Just like Matt has to stumble through it and does a really good job. But, and there was a line where he asked Matt, do you have any iron instruments that make music or devices for making light? And like, we didn't talk about it anymore. Matt just said, no, like he didn't continue to explain, which I sort of loved because I feel like there were some things going on in this episode with like too much exposition. And we didn't get that in this scene. We just had these little like hints. Um, and I loved it. Um,

[00:30:33] and so like now I'm left, like, are those its weaknesses? Was it worried that Matt had those? Is that how you like defeat an Elfin or tame it? Or are those objects very powerful in the Elfin's hands and he wants them and he would trade them for something? Like, we don't know. I thought that was really interesting and mysterious. And I hope that like we do find out more in the future. Um, we kept getting these glimpses sort of, of like skeletons and dead things,

[00:31:02] but it seemed like they were almost filtering in and out as if there was like a mirage over them that he wasn't always seeing them. I don't know if I interpreted that right or if it was just like dark areas of the room and like suddenly the light would hit it. But, and it was very creepy. We found that it smells like death in there. Um, so like there was something itching in my brain that it reminded me of something else I've seen like in a fantasy series that I've either watched or read. I can't place it.

[00:31:32] I asked in one of the chats, like if someone else knew what it could be and someone replied that they thought it was a weird mix of like the clown it and, um, cat in the hat and cat in the hat, which I thought was like pretty good. It's still, there's something else. Like, I feel like the, the weird juxtaposition of like the clown appearance plus the death and like, it's like a corrupted genie. Like, what do you need?

[00:32:01] You have three wishes kind of thing. It was firmly in the Pennywise, uh, Pennywise, the clown, uh, aspect for me for a couple of reasons. One, I read it when I was 12 and I mean, it took me a long time to get through it. I didn't understand all of the, the words in it. Um, but there was definitely like, uh, the idea of like, Hey, when you see him, you know, Oh, I smell the cotton candy of the fair, or I smell, you know,

[00:32:31] the, Oh, Hey, it smells like some elephants or you can smell the sweet things or the fried dough or whatever. But then underneath you, you smell a stench of death. And, uh, and that very specifically rung true with this. And then I will tell you the, uh, the visuals for the eel fin definitively reminded me of, Pennywise, the dancing clown in the new version, the,

[00:33:01] the bill scarred version of it. Uh, it like, just like the, and then I, I paused it, uh, when he, you, you only saw him walk across, uh, like one time. You only saw his whole body, like one time. And his, I was like, well, the first time I watched it was like, Oh, he's got like platforms on, but he's like moving quickly and whatever. That's weird. And, but I, when I paused it, there are no heels. It's on like the platforms are only on the,

[00:33:30] they're only on like the balls of his feet. So it's like there, it's like extended up, but it's encased in like white. So it's almost like a sock or something, but there's definitively like a platform. Um, yeah, like an elevated hoof or something like that. Um, but it almost looked like the hind leg of an animal where it kind of almost like extends back. Um, so I thought it was, I thought it was actually really well done. I never would have pictured this in my head. Um,

[00:33:59] but in all honesty, I never really took a lot of time to kind of figure out what the Elfin or Elfin looked like. Um, so I thought that they did an excellent job. And I mean, like the fact that his teeth were sharp and pointed, um, it was, I, I thought it was, and he was, he was menacing. Like he was flat out menacing. Um, I will say that.

[00:34:29] As you said, like I'm coming to love Matt more and more. Um, but I don't know if it's Donald Finn's choice or like his direction, but like his blocking, whenever he sees something crazy, he like leans back and he's just like standing, but he's like leaning back, like away from whatever it is. And he like, when he turns around to look, go back through the doorway, it's gone. And he's just like,

[00:34:58] I don't know what's going on. And, uh, I, he was great. I thought it was, it was a fantastic character as he's developed him. Like I continue my, he's the Chandler of the show. And that's exactly how I think Chandler would react. If he was thrown into a weird situation, he would probably oddly lean back and be like, well, so it feels right. I mean, Matt laid out his three needs, I guess,

[00:35:28] which the, I wrote them down. It's like the first stop getting bollocked about by every magical force. So I don't, I'm so curious what that means. Like he, he said he listed off a couple of things and I think he even mentioned the one power. And so does that mean Matt is going to be, um, untouchable by the one power from now on? Um, that is a definitive possibility.

[00:35:56] And then fix me was the next thing he actually said, but it was in response to the elephant saying, or referencing the voices that are not his own, that are running through his head. You have memories in your head. We can take them. You can fix me. And so like, we already saw that, like, he's lost a bit more than just that. Cause he didn't really remember how he was,

[00:36:22] where he was when men woke him up or resuscitated him. So again, unclear what that's going to mean. And then his last was basically that he wanted to get the fuck out. Um, but my note is my notes are, uh, bollocks about by the one power fix me and GTFO. Yeah. Mine. I just wrote GTFO as well. Um,

[00:36:52] but the elephant calls him out and says, okay, but no price or terms were set. So it's on you, bud. And he gets flashed back out of the mirror. So he was smart. To ask to escape because it seems like that would have been the major mistake if he hadn't asked for that, because then he probably would end up as one of those skeletons, um, there in the archway. Um, but no, he was miraculously asked for the right thing and it was to get out.

[00:37:22] Um, but then almost died hanging. And so there's men's premonition that she kept seeing of his, him hanging, but luckily she was there. And again, very easily knocked out Chesma, the, uh, black Aja, which I know she was distracted by Matt, but again, like sometimes the Aes Sedai and the black Ajas are invincible.

[00:37:49] And other times you can just comically knock them out with a little walk to the back of the head, apparently. So, okay, cool. I, I guess she's not dead, just knocked out, but we don't talk about her again. Seems, seems irresponsible. Yeah. It seems silly to not slither throw her, throw her through the archway. I don't know. Just so that, um, put, put a knife in her hand and throw her through the archway. Like, do you have any weapons in the iron? Uh, what?

[00:38:18] Oh no. Oh. And, uh, Min does CPR on Matt, which I felt like was believable because Min's been on a lot of boats where I feel like, um, seamen would definitely, if you're on a boat, you probably get some CPR education, even if we're not in a time in this world where CPR education is super widespread. Um, it was believable to me that she would definitely have known that.

[00:38:46] And it appeared to me that he has a Fox charm necklace. And am I right that Elida's was like a snake? Yes. Okay. So they both seem to have come out with some sort of charm from the deals they've made in these archways. That's all I had for Matt and Min. I don't know if you want to lead off, if you have more on that, or if you want to talk about any of our other 10 Chico characters. Well, we will, we'll get into 10 Chico or other 10 Chico. Um,

[00:39:16] but I just want to applaud, um, the, the, the show runners or whomever wrote this because one, it was phenomenally well done, uh, for what it was now to be fair in the book, Matt goes through an archway and he sees the Elfin and he, but like, it's like a tower and he has to like go up a bunch of flights of stairs and blah, blah, blah. Like,

[00:39:45] I thought this was very well done. I thought this was believable. It was, uh, it was, it was abrupt. It, as I said, the, the Elfin was very menacing, the, the character and the confusion was real. Like it was very much like, uh, what you're asking me all these questions. What are you talking about now? What's my need? What are you talking about? What's my need? Like with, that doesn't make any sense to me. What? And, um, um,

[00:40:13] I could see this being used as a, like as a tool, like, Hey, I want to go find, uh, there's a story about this doorway that you go through and you, and so now, now where is it? It is locked away in the Panarchs palace, um, where no one can accidentally go through it and not come out or whatever the case is. Like there's no one who goes in and learn something and then,

[00:40:42] and I imagine that all of these, these, as you mentioned, all of these skeletons were people who didn't know to ask for a way out, um, or an exit or terms or a price or whatever. Um, but yeah, I really, really enjoyed this entire, uh, thing. I think that it was almost, uh, yes, it was important to the story. It's important to the story, but it's also, uh,

[00:41:10] almost fan service because this is a very whacked out thing that you could probably do without, uh, if you just did, you know, made some slight changes to the script. But I think that this made it, made you go, wait, what the F is happening? You just went through this thing and what, what, what, but, uh, I really liked it. Um, and, uh, it, it does not hurt that it is Matt who is,

[00:41:39] has become a very, very charming presence in the show. Um, but yeah, so he, he, his, his memories are quote unquote fixed. Um, the, uh, and then there is, I'm glad that you interpreted it as a fox head because it took me a second to like, look at it and be like, wait, what is that? Um, but I have to confess that like Google may have been involved. Okay. Fair enough. in,

[00:42:08] in giving me a hint about the elephant and elephant to interpret, maybe that's what it is. And then look at it and be like, okay, I think that's what it is. Like the, I knew, I mean, the Fox head medallion is a significant part in the story. Um, and it is, you know, that's what they refer to it as. Um, and. He mentions like when he, when Matt calls out that it smells like death, he says it smells like the fox den. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, uh,

[00:42:37] that was also supposed to be a bit of a, a hint there. And I mean, it looked a bit Fox like. If you looked at it at a certain angle, you could definitely see there were like ears and like the elevation of a snout. Um, but you know, I, I, I, I thought that was, that was well put together. And, uh, I mean, it's very boxy and kind of cubist, but I think it was recognizable if you had reference, um, or had a, had some sort of context to it.

[00:43:07] Yeah. I, I really liked men, uh, that I, I'm really enjoying the friendship between men and Matt. Um, I know that I've seen some feedback with regard to, uh, the actor who plays men and, you know, not really being what people pictured, but I'll tell you, she is, she's doing, I think, I think she's doing a service to the role. Um, and I think that, uh, that she and Donald Finn really have good,

[00:43:37] you know, friends about town, uh, vibes. Yeah, for sure. I love their dynamic. Um, so that's, yeah, that's all I had for, uh, but yes, I agree. Chesmaul's like, I mean, it took Balefire to get rid of, of, uh, Jean or Jeannie or whatever, but, uh, Chesmaul just got a, a club to the back of the head. Right. Um, but, but yeah, all right, sure, whatever. Um,

[00:44:07] but, uh, I, I am interested to see later on what Matt's neck looks like, because you could definitively see where the, the rope was. Um, and I'm, that has a continuing storyline in the books. So I'm curious to see what happened. What they do with it over the next, uh, number of, of seasons, hopefully. Um, all right. So if, if that was Matt,

[00:44:37] how about we talk about Tom and Elaine? Yeah. All right. So, so we don't get a ton from Tom and Elaine. Um, but I will definitively say, cause like, you know, when I did my notes, I was like, okay, in Tanchico, we go into the palace. And so we split up into three groups, Nainye by herself, Tom and Elaine, and then Matt and Ben. Um, so Tom and Elaine, that they're, you know,

[00:45:06] they're wandering around, just kind of chatting back and forth. Um, and, uh, oh, Hey, there's delving. Um, you can look for metals in, in the earth. And so, and like his, his chuckle about, you know, are you laughing at me? Oh, I would never, um, except, you know, when you were a baby, you, it was very much a, like,

[00:45:35] is Elaine, Tom's kid thing. Oh, like, absolutely. I think she's his kid. I think they at least want us to believe it. Like, that's what they were going for us to believe. But like, absolutely. I think there were too many hints. Right. For him either not to be, or for us to be going down that storyline to discover if he is. Um, so, so like,

[00:46:04] he obviously has some sort of vested interest in her. Um, and, uh, you know, he's like, Oh, you took apart, took everything apart. And then, you know, took clocks apart. And then the queen would never punish you. She never would because, you know, you were her favorite or whatever. And you're like, Oh, well, Morghese is kind of, uh, kind of a hardcore person given what we saw some of her choices were with regard to the succession. Um, but, um, you know,

[00:46:34] obviously Elaine is her favorite. And then she, uh, she did come to the white tower with a vengeance when she thought there was a possibility that Elaine could be in trouble or in danger. Um, but then we get, uh, Oh, so you, yeah. When did you leave? Oh, you would have been about five, you know? Uh, Oh, you, so just before Lord Gabriel got there, what, what you talk about Willis? And it's, uh, Oh, uh, Oh, you know,

[00:47:04] Lord Gabriel, my, I have memories of it. and then very much, I think that they get, they get, uh, I don't remember if they get interrupted by, um, Jean at that point, or if it was shortly after that, but Hey, if, uh, if, if you remember him there, that's only because he put them there because I've kept tabs on where Gase's, uh, court. So like it's, he's gotta be a forsaken.

[00:47:33] And like I said, I don't like the literally the repeat, of, Oh, it's gotta be a forsaken. Um, but okay. Like I can understand. I think we talked about earlier. We, we, we can understand the, um, the, the connotation of it. Like, Hey, based on compulsion and the rules and all that, it's either a black Aja or it's the forsaken. Um, so I get it. Uh, but what Tom said after,

[00:48:03] um, is it Jeannie? Is that what, is that what we're going to call her? I think it's just Jean. Jean Cade. Right. Um, so after, uh, she, you know, after she attacks them, um, he says, you know, Hey, I promised your mother that I was going to keep you safe. Um, and, um, so you run. So being the noble person, uh,

[00:48:30] but he did the same thing with Rand and Matt in season one. So it's not completely out of character for him to sacrifice himself and hope that he doesn't. I really dislike the idea that you're going to call attention to yourself before you throw a dagger at somebody. Just throw the dagger. If she senses it, she can knock it away. And then she could look towards you at that point, just because you don't, that you need, you know, her to be distracted for Elaine to,

[00:49:00] to go. Just throw the dagger at her. It's okay. If you hit her in the back, she's black or black. Like, like, I know. And the other piece, my other complaint was that then she did the same thing in return, took a moment to like, do some exposition about bail fire. And, you know, is that the moment where she called more gay as a whore? Or was that earlier? I don't remember, but anyway, she took a beat to like,

[00:49:28] talk about like bail fire and say something else to him. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, just kill each other. Try. Stop talking to each other. I will say this at least two more times in this episode. Uh, just kill whomever it is that you're talking about killing. Yeah. Like just do it. Like you don't need to, you don't need to hear them. Like you're giving the morning. Don't be stupid. Um, yeah,

[00:49:57] so that's, and then, so Elaine, Expelliarmus is, uh, Jean and gets the, gets the, the rod. And like bail fires her. And then we talked about bail fire fire already. Um, so, uh, I thought it was a cool scene. I thought it was a cool introduction to bail fire. Um, but like I said, I have some complaints, although I'm going to say that for readers of the book,

[00:50:25] Tom's hat plays a part later on. So that flat top black hat plays a part later on. So many hats in the show. Oh, well, I got, I got a fashion choice to talk about later. that's very interesting. It may be the same one. Probably. Um, but that's all I have for, for Tom and Elaine. We didn't get a lot, but we got enough to make me curious and want to hear more. Same.

[00:50:54] And I really liked Tom and was excited that he was back. Very surprised. He was back obviously as a non book reader. Um, and then to have this reveal that he may be even more intertwined in our main characters than I previously thought was, is exciting and fun. And I'm excited. Again, this was one of the things that we got this sort of like intriguing reveal, as well as like still some mystery left to it and left me wanting more.

[00:51:22] And like definitely Tom's character is one of those things. So very excited. And I really enjoy his, the, the lilt of his voice. And I mean, his singing was great, you know, in season one and a couple episodes ago, but, uh, I, I, I like his, his gleaming roots. Yeah. All right. Um, so I guess the last piece of 10 Chico would be Landron and nine native, right? Yep. Um,

[00:51:51] and so we've got Leandron opening up, um, looking for a span who he know has met her demise from Mogadian. Um, the, the other two black Aja have called Landron out on killing Naomi and she freely admits it. Um, we see Mogadian come in and give Leandron the other cuff that she stole from, um,

[00:52:20] nine nave and Elaine previously. previously, but at this point, Leandron still seems unaware that this is Mogadian. And I'm guessing that's because like, we sort of talked about uncertainty, whether Leandron wasn't clocking Mogadian because she just like, wasn't taking the time to pay attention to a servant. Or if there's some sort of like cloaking Mogadian was using,

[00:52:50] like not necessarily actually cloaking, but like some, we know she can use a lot of mind control. Like she did with nine nave and Elaine last episode, um, or two episodes ago, I guess. And so I still like, I'm guessing that had to have been a piece of why Leandron didn't clock her even then, because then later in the episode, Leandron seems to know exactly who she is. And it's not like she had time to go do research between those two things happening.

[00:53:20] But I guess I'm curious, do you think too, that there was some sort of something? I feel like, um, kind of like you, you mentioned like richer people will, would not necessarily pay attention to some, to, to servants, um, as much. I think that there was some aspect to that. I believe that Leandron had done research on the forsaken with the anticipation to have become a forsaken. Uh,

[00:53:49] but I don't think she ever like noticed certain things until she physically like was talking to Mokideon. Um, to me, like the blackened fingers are like a dead giveaway. Like it's not, it's kind of like a bond villain having a scar on his face or, you know, uh, purely white hair or whatever. Um, but you know,

[00:54:14] that Mokideon has done something to the point where her fingers are literally black. And I feel like that's something that you would be like, Oh, there you go. That's, that's Mokideon. Like, it's not hard for some reason at the beginning of the episode, Leandron didn't. Right. Clock it from that. But then by the end of the episode, I feel like there was some sort of like making, maybe making, you know, Mokideon making herself dim until she came into focus. Uh,

[00:54:41] and then when Leandron actually like kind of broke through whatever, uh, glom or glam or whatever she had. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, I think she put it together later when she, you know, she obviously seemed suspicious when she was like, Oh, uh, my bad. I should have paid more attention to you. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, I, I think that there was definitely some sort of, of, uh, of enchantment that Mokideon was using.

[00:55:11] Uh, but then I think that, you know, Leandron kind of broke through it and did do the work, uh, to, to identify that. All right. So Leandron has the two bracelets. She puts them both on, which is a little like, what's that really smart? Because then she walks past Nine Ava and Nine Ava is like, she's got the bracelets. Let's follow her. Okay. That's all convenient. Whatever. It was, um,

[00:55:40] but the key piece to all this is that Leandron conveniently does not know that when a collar is not on a person, it is just a ring. And when it goes on someone, it becomes a collar. Now I find that unbelievable because while we know it because of the, we have her very intimately acquainted with the Sean Sean.

[00:56:09] So was Leandron, at least like she was very aware of who they were. She's from Tanchico, which is a place that obviously probably has some roots in history, very similar to the origins of the Sean Sean. If we're talking about this, like use of collars and bracelets. And so I just had a little bit, it was a little bit of a stretch for me that Leandron was that clueless to what she should be looking for. But that's,

[00:56:39] I mean, that's the key to why Nine Ava was able to find it when Leandron couldn't, even though she was literally being drawn to it by voices she could hear. So I can appreciate your doubt there. But, and I'm just going to say, but Leandron did not spend a bunch of time with the Sean Sean. She did.

[00:57:03] She went through the ways and dropped off Nine Yave and Elaine and Egwene. All of the collars that she saw had the entire thing down. You know, they were all on people. So that was what she saw. And then she could kind of like, look, you know, make that comparison. Okay. Yeah. This is what like the Sean Sean use. Yeah. Nine Yave and, and Elaine would,

[00:57:30] and obviously Egwene would be a little bit more familiar with what those, those look like when they were not on, you know, when, when they were not healed, right. Cause it needed to be healed. They need to be completed. Um, I find it hard to believe that she would not, if, if she was being whispered to it, I find it hard to believe that she, when she literally was like rummaging through the thing, she wouldn't have felt something there. Uh, but, but okay. You know what? Fine.

[00:58:00] But I'm, my, my complaints a little bit different. There were a lot more. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, I mean, I have more complaints. Tell me your complaint. I didn't mean to cut you off. I just meant like, yeah, I'm there with you. My, my complaint, the one that I specifically, the one I'm going to talk about is there were a lot of pieces of jewelry, including many, many bracelets and or necklaces and or whatever.

[00:58:27] There was nothing remarkable about this one in particular, but Nineveh happened to be able to be like, Oh, that's an ADAM. Oh my gosh. And she picks up exactly, precisely the right one. And like, she didn't have any, like, Oh, I touched it with the power in it, like absorbed it or something. There, there was nothing except, Oh, this, this must be the one out of the hundreds that are flung across the, maybe a hundred is flung across the floor, but. But yes, there were a bunch.

[00:58:57] There were a lot. And I was just like, that just seems super convenient. Yeah. I wish there had been some sort of something like they were able to see the one power coming off of it. Just anything that made me feel more believable that she would have chosen it.

[00:59:20] Now I realized then it would have been harder for Leandrin to have not seen it. To justify Leandrin not sensing it. So I get it. I just, I, it all felt like a little bit of a stretch. Like, I hear what you're saying that maybe Leandrin didn't spend time with the Shantan. Then I have to question, what are they teaching the Aes Sedai in the White Tower?

[00:59:45] Because it seems pretty important to know about this group of people and the tools they use to control women who can channel. channel of which you are the target. Like you are exactly the women who can channel, who might be at risk from the Shantan. Maybe you should have learned a little bit about the tools that they use to control you. That is a very, very fair point. Okay. I, of course,

[01:00:13] I also don't know how many people have made it out of Shantan and made it back to, I mean, we, I mean, I don't know if we saw, I mean, actually no, Raima Sedai, Raima Sedai made it out and she absolutely would have shared that information with Swann. And there's zero reason why the Aes Sedai, the White Tower would not have been like publishing papers on, uh, like the ADAM. Yeah. So yeah, I agree with you. Okay. I don't have to belabor anymore,

[01:00:41] but I agree a lot of department of suspension of disbelief, but I do wish that again, I would kind of like with Perrin and the wolves last episode, give me a line, one line, Hey, Oh, this is, I don't know, whatever. It, it, I, I, have I mentioned the thank you for smoking reference before? I don't think so. Okay. So in the movie, thank you for smoking. Um, they were, uh,

[01:01:10] Aaron Eckhart plays like a, uh, a big tobacco media person. I can't remember what they're called now for escaping. The word is escaping me, but, uh, basically a PR guy. And, uh, and he goes to like, make a, it goes to a Hollywood executive. And he's like, Hey, how would you like to have your, your product in, uh, you know, how would you like, uh,

[01:01:40] Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston? I don't know if that was those two in particular, but they're post coitus in space, smoking cigarettes, you know, smoking charlatans or whatever. And he's like, um, well, wouldn't the all oxygen, you know, environment cause that to explode. And the exec is like, Oh, that's, that's a one line fix. It's a, Oh, thank God we invented the whatever. It's a one line fix.

[01:02:10] All you have to do. And like that movie, that specific reference definitively broke me forever with regard to stuff like this, where it's like, Hey, all I have to do is one line about the wolves, one line about, uh, Oh, I sense that it was this because the way that I put it on, I held it in my hand or something one line. And it's an easy, easy fix. And you don't have to show anything. You don't give me the one line.

[01:02:40] It's like a flash of, of nine, a of seeing it fall off of a Gwaine or seeing a Gwaine hold it or something and being like, that looks just like that one. Something, right. Give me my one line. And, uh, but no, I completely agree with you. Um, and hopefully if you are listening to this and, uh, hopefully you are all also forever changed by this. Just give me one line. It's, it's not that hard.

[01:03:10] All right. So then next stupid move, Nineve against her own advice, sits and stands outside and waits for Batman and Elaine and Tom to come out. Literally anybody to show up. And of course they don't come out. Leandrin comes out. And then here's, here's where this bothered me is the amount of exposition we got from Leandrin.

[01:03:34] And the amount of times really this whole season that Leandrin has announced clearly her intentions to become a Forsaken. It got to the point where, like, I don't think you should keep telling people this. Like, why do you keep announcing this? Like, like when she told Mogidion at the end, sure, that made sense. Why, why would you tell Elaine? I mean, I mean, Nineve right now. Like, that doesn't make sense, but whatever.

[01:04:04] And so she, like, Nineve tries to talk to Leandrin because we've seen Nineve soften for Leandrin after she sees, like, that Leandrin's grown up in these horrible circumstances and had all this bad stuff happen to her. But Leandrin just shuts her down. It's like, no, I've built up like a wall around my heart. I don't care. You know, screw my own son. He should have died when he was a baby. Nineve's like, you don't really believe that.

[01:04:32] And we know she doesn't really believe that because she spent her whole life trying to protect and hide her son. But she's obviously very bitter at the loss and can't handle her own grief and is pushing it away. And so then she pronounces that she's going to kill, the strongest channeler in a thousand years, which I think she meant Nineve, not Rand. Yep. And she, you know, channels and puts chains around Nineve, sinks her in the ocean, and then was like,

[01:05:02] okay, done. Let me walk away before, like, even, you know, the amount of time it should take for someone to drown. So again, like, oh, it just killed me. Like that she walked away so quickly. And like, obviously I'm glad she walked away. Nineve's alive. And got to have her like Moses moment, which was super cool. And maybe I will excuse all these things that I don't think are realistic to believe,

[01:05:31] because I did absolutely love this moment. That was, this was a, finally I'm blocking. Pay off moment. I mean, it was absolutely glorious. And I mean, we saw her doing something that I think would have been causing most of the characters we've seen channeled previously to be looking like they're flickering out. And she didn't seem to even be breaking a sweat.

[01:06:01] It seemed like nothing to her. And I thought it was pretty cool that it took her sort of focusing on, on her daughter that she'd had in the arches, Elnor, and that that's sort of what helped her break down that wall. Like realizing, you know, she was thinking of protecting her daughter and, you know, using her power, I think for good and not to be scared of it, but to use it to like save the people she loves and cares about. And that includes, she's got to be alive to do that.

[01:06:31] So I thought that was pretty cool. And I've been dying to see Nainave remove that block. And so I just can't wait to see what else she is going to do with that immense power. I will say that the, the music that was, you know, going during when she blows, you know, parts, the tides and, you know, she,

[01:06:59] my notes say she is air drying her clothes. Cause you could just like see her clothes like blowing. She had like this like stiff, like arms out, you know, pose. The music was phenomenal. Very uplifting. Very well. Actually, let me, I guess I'll, I'll go back a minute. A hundred percent agree with everything you said regarding Leandrin, just shoot her in the head that you've shoot. Like there are bodies literally littered, through the panox part palace.

[01:07:28] You killed seven people or seven guards or five guards or whatever in three seconds. Just shoot her in the head. You're going to kill the strong Chandler. Fine. Killer. I'm going to go back to bond villains because there's another bond villain thing. Like this, this, I love satire. Austin powers, Austin, the original Austin powers, Dr. Evil is like, yes, I have created this very elaborate plan for them to die.

[01:07:58] When they, I'm going to, I set the laser and then, or no, we're going to slowly lower them into the, the vault of lava. And, uh, we're going to be good. And Seth green, who is Scott, his son is like, wait, where, what do you mean? Where are we going? He's like, Oh, Oh, I mean, they're obviously going to die because I'm going to, why don't we just stand here and watch them go into the lava? What if they escape? They're obviously not going to escape. I mean,

[01:08:27] it's a impenetrable trap. Uh, like, it's not going to matter. What? No, if we're going to kill them, I've got a gun. I'll just, we'll just shoot them in the head. No, no, no, that's ridiculous. We shouldn't possibly do that. It was just, it's very much like the pointing out the ridiculousness of the situation. Um, it's not like Leandrin expressed that she didn't want to kill her because she kind of felt, didn't want to necessarily want to watch nine years die or whatever. Like, could I come up with a,

[01:08:56] a thousand possibilities in my head? Sure. I could, but if she's going to talk about all of these things, I'm going to call her the dragon reborn. I'm going to be a forsaken. I'm going to kill the strongest Chandler. If you can say all of those things, you can say why you aren't shooting her in the head. Um, yeah. And so like, yes, that was very, very frustrating to me, but again, it did lead to this amazing moment. I feel like there could have been a bit better setup for that, but okay. Okay.

[01:09:27] Fine. Right. Um, uh, there was something that, uh, in the, um, in the, like inside the episode afterwards that Zoe Robbins talked about it. And I think, uh, Rafe Judkins mentioned that, you know, or maybe I read it in an article somewhere, whatever it was. It was like, she like taught herself, like she was teaching Elnor to trust in what was happening. And so she, when she finally accepted surrendering,

[01:09:54] it was because she was teaching it to herself. She wasn't being, it wasn't being forced on her by somebody else. Yeah. I like that comparison. Um, the drowning was the way this happened in the book, but it didn't happen to like book eight, like book seven, book eight. You have to wait. Exactly. It was, I was, I was like, Oh my gosh. I mean, I think I talked about a few episodes ago. It's like, we were already like, you know, three or two and a half seasons in and we, she still blocked and oh my God.

[01:10:23] And I think that this was good timing. And they said, they mentioned that we wanted this to happen, um, at the end of season three. Uh, and as you said, I can't wait to see what she does with it. This was all kind of emotional. It was almost like a release for me, um, seeing it happen. But the, the part that really, really got me like emotional was Zoe Robbins's face as she's like,

[01:10:52] almost like chuckling and then like getting control of herself. But then like, it's like the joy is bubbling out of her. And it was like, like, I was just like, Oh my God, like I'm tearing up as I'm, as I'm watching this. It was, it was very, very well acted. I agree. I agree. I loved that moment too. And I think it fit in line with what we've seen, I guess, juxtapose, juxtaposed to what we see,

[01:11:19] the pain and loss that Swan feels when it's pulled away from her later in the episode. Um, I feel like this was representative of how good it feels to be able to channel, um, you're able to touch the one power. Oh yeah, no, that was a wonderful moment. And, um, I was grateful to see it on screen. Do you have anything else for Leandrin and Nanyave?

[01:11:47] That's all I had for that. Okay. Well, then we'll take a quick break and we'll come back in a couple minutes and we're back. All right. So, uh, I'll take the next point. Um, I kind of want to talk about the forsaken. And so like all of the forsaken that we're,

[01:12:17] that we're seeing, um, now I know that Lanfear, you know, obviously had like a big to do, uh, you know, she had a lot of different arcs in this episode. Um, but I'm going to, so I'm going to kind of like focus on the others. So we talked a little bit about Monkidian already. Um, but it really seems like all of the forsaken, and just despise each other.

[01:12:47] Like there, each one is, it seems to be just looking for a reason or a way to kill the other ones. Um, one of the things that I, uh, I wanted to flat out say is, Hey, Samuel is still here. My bad. Like I've thought he was dead, but, uh, apparently it takes more to kill a forsaken, uh, demonstrated by what Monkidian said, uh, about trying to figure out what it takes to kill a chosen.

[01:13:17] Um, so, so we've seen two chosen die now. Um, one was Ishmael who, you know, to be fair, he, uh, he, he got it pretty good. Um, and then Samael who Monkidian, like, I guess created webs out of his blood and, uh, uh, pulled it out of him one strand at a time. Um, I was pretty wild. Yeah. Like I,

[01:13:45] like I saw what she was doing and it looked very similar to what she was, what she had done to, um, like she, it was the same web kind of pattern that she had used on Lanfear at the end of season one. Um, but then it was also very similar to what she kind of sort of did to, uh, Josh, Josh team when she, uh, created the, the gray men. Um, and then I was just like,

[01:14:15] they're getting real creative on like how to like kill the ever living crap out of people. Um, but, uh, but she, you know, she still has her like web, web style. So she likes that. Um, before this though, you know, we, we get a little bit of a background on Samael. I didn't particularly care for like his exposition. Um, you know, I rediscovered the art of war.

[01:14:43] There hadn't been armies before me. Like he was like gloating to Moiraine. Like he needed to impress her. Uh, it just, it feels like the forsaken are just crazy petty. And like we talked to, you saw my, and like, you know, chewing food or spitting in soup or whatever. And then Samael's like, Oh, I had to, like, I, I gotta have, I have to explain to you, simpletons. Like how awesome I am. Like you, it just,

[01:15:10] it just seems very inconsistent to like these, these people who are like the dark Lords generals. Yeah. They are, they, they need to be justified by their victims. Uh, and it doesn't make any sense to me. Like they just, I didn't like it. Um, they sort of remind me of like, you know, the high school football star.

[01:15:41] I see that. Um, you know, all the forsaken are so stuck in the past and it makes sense. Cause they were literally frozen. Literally all that time. Right. And, you know, all the people they're dealing with now are dealing with the reality of the current day and the current turn of the wheel, but they are all still stuck in their mindset from where their souls were put out of the wheel thousands of years ago.

[01:16:10] And then they were locked away. And I think that comes up multiple times, this episode of, you know, Rand is not an individual to them. Rand is still loose. They're in like Samuel talks about wanting to kill loose. Therein and for loose to see the scar on his face that he has not had healed. And Lanfear talks to Rand as if he is still loose.

[01:16:38] And I think they're just stuck in their past lives and they are all petty because to be someone who serves the dark one that closely, I think you just have to be power hungry. And if you're that power hungry, then like inherently you're going to be a selfish person. Um, and so I think it all fits, but the, but the piece that's missing is like, they seem too dumb. They're incredibly powerful,

[01:17:08] but they can't make smart moves. And so they're ending up getting themselves into sticky situations because they're acting too much on their emotions instead of actually being war generals. So like in that aspect of things, I agree with you. Like it just doesn't, it doesn't compute to me that like, I don't know if you were this stupid, I feel like you would have been not just locked away.

[01:17:36] Like you could have been defeated previously. Yeah. Like you were a general before there were like, you recreated the art of war. Well, when the art of war was first created, they had to go through like a bunch of iterations to like, quote unquote, perfect it. So like, if you were the first one to rediscover it, that like, you probably weren't very good at it. Uh, you were just the first to read started up. So like, like I said, I, for these,

[01:18:06] for these legendary characters of the dark outside of land fear and maybe Robin and, in all honesty, Malkidian, like she's pretty, like pretty terrifying. Um, they aren't good people, but I feel like Samuel was especially dumb and, and I get it. Like they wanted to give a little bit of, of there's a little bit of fan service in there because there was a scar in

[01:18:35] the book and it was caused by loose there and it was not healed, um, to be served as a reminder and, and all that. But, um, and then, you know, Moiraine was like, you're going to teach them. Like you, you need to, I need you to teach them or I will bury you here. And when the last battle has been fought, uh, your name will be, there will be no existence of you whatsoever. And so like that was,

[01:19:05] that's how you hurt the high school football star. They won't be remembered. You're going to take their trophy down. Nothing's worse. Yeah. I did. Like I, I didn't particularly care for this, uh, like specifically Samuel. Uh, I thought that the Malkidian interaction was phenomenal, but, um, I, I did not care for the, I understood what Moiraine was saying and all that. I didn't like his care. I didn't like his character. I,

[01:19:33] I didn't think it made any sense. I also found it unbelievable that Moiraine would actually trust him to teach Rand anything useful. Um, I just don't think that was a realistic expectation. I can see that. And I feel like she's too smart for that maybe, but maybe not. I mean,

[01:19:58] she seems to be trying to utilize the forsaken for how they can benefit her cause. So maybe, and maybe, maybe that happened in one of the visions she saw in the, uh, yeah, true. You know, in the, the, in Ruidian. Um, but, uh, all right. So that's kind of Samuel. Like I, I'm done with Samuel now. Do you have anything for else for him? Nope. That was it. Okay. Um, and then we only saw Robin for a couple minutes after, uh,

[01:20:29] after Rand, uh, rejected Lanfear. They come upon the corpse of Samuel. Um, and, you know, and Lanfear is like, uh, you know, I told you he was the weakest and blah, blah, blah, blah. And, uh, and Robin's like, Oh, Oh, Hey, with calendar, rather Lanfear with calendar, you could take on whatever. And he's like, Oh, did your dragon, you know, did lose there and reject you again?

[01:20:59] And I was like, like, that's ballsy. Like, I guess it's kind of hard to kill a forsaken, but, uh, that's, that's pretty ballsy to goad Lanfear is as much as, as much terror as she has been able to, to rain down. Um, I can appreciate where he would feel that she would need him, uh, to, to, to utilize calendar. Um, but, um, but so yeah, uh, we only see him for a couple minutes and he just kind of is there to poke,

[01:21:29] uh, Lanfear and, uh, let us know that she has other options besides Rand. Uh, to utilize calendar while she uses the Sakarnan. Um, and then we've talked a lot about Mughidian. Um, we, I mean, the, the only things that we, the only things we haven't mentioned, um, are, I mean, are,

[01:21:59] are when she was talking to Leander later on, like that was about it. And you actually touched on it a bit where Mughidian was like, like, Hey, I'm trying to think about how to, I thought so many times of how it was going to kill you. And, uh, but, Oh no, but you're the weakest of the forsaken and you need some, you need other force, unless you're going to be naveless. So apparently she knows what naveless is. Um, if you're gonna be naveless alone, or you need other forsaken that are less strong than you, you know, Hey,

[01:22:29] that's actually pretty strong logic in my opinion from Leander. Um, Leander and smart. I think like, I know she did some stupid things we just complained about, but like overall, I mean, she's finding out how long ago she became, um, under the service of the dark one and how she's continued to survive and become an eyes to die. Despite all of that,

[01:22:58] like she's obviously a pretty smart lady. And like, I think right now I can maybe excuse some of her stupid behavior as related to grief and trying to run from her own grief. Um, and so maybe that's how I'll try to explain away why she's being idiotic in the moments I think she is, but yeah, honestly, overall pretty impressive, right? That she did it for that long. I mean, she's, I mean,

[01:23:26] Leander has become a much more impressive character than we realized in season one when she turned over the girls to the Sean. Yeah. you know, with a lot, as you said, like a lot of that has the fact that she was a sitter, uh, 10 years before. And, you know, she's been doing this for a long time, worming her way into the tower. Um, like talk about playing the long game. She was 12. Yeah.

[01:23:55] And she's like a hundred and something now. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, so, so, but yeah, like the outside of that movie and is kind of almost like a, uh, a shadow in, in a lot of it. Yes. She has a couple of scenes and she obviously does some, some important things. She brought the bracelet, as you mentioned, uh, you know, she killed Samael and she, you know, accepted Leandrin apparently maybe as a,

[01:24:24] a lesser forsaken, but, um, but she's a constant threat. And, uh, that was something that I did read. It was like, uh, Moghidian, we wanted you to feel the threat. Whenever Moghidian was in a scene that she was like, if you were in a scene with her, she, you were probably going to die or someone was going to die. And you're almost like waiting for that. Yeah. I mean, and, and again,

[01:24:55] back to the acting has been phenomenal. Um, she, she has been, she's been crazy, not just crazy, but like crazy good in this role. Yeah. Absolutely. Definitely brings the creep factor. All right. So then the last that I want to talk about is Lanphir and, uh, we're going to touch a little bit more on like the, the end game, uh, when in our next point, but,

[01:25:24] uh, Lanphir meets Rand in this place of his choosing in his dream. Right. We talked about Egwene pushing her out of the, the dream. Um, but she said, this is an interesting choice. And he said, this is where the Sharon crash. The day that you let the dark one free. Well, that's an interesting tidbit, um, that I didn't realize that she let the dark one free,

[01:25:55] uh, on that day. Um, when she broke through the dark ones prison. Um, and so it was like, Oh, all right. Well, that's kind of a big deal. And, you know, she said, I swore my oaths that day because the other option was death. And like, okay. You know, I can appreciate that. It's like, Hey, like I'm going to do this, but, uh, I have to live with that. Um,

[01:26:23] I don't have crazy strong morals. Uh, I'm looking for power in general. One of the things that I really liked about what she said that day, he said, you know, what happened to that, that woman who wanted to find a power for everything or for everyone to be able to access. And then he, or did you just want that power for yourself? And her response said, why can't it be both like it?

[01:26:53] Yes. Like I want a power for, to make the world a better place because everybody can access it. But why can't I have, you know, a large share of that power? I can, I can be two things. I can want better for the world, but I can also want to be a strong, powerful person in my own right. Um, and I can want to want the approval. Hey, like lose there and bailed on me because I wouldn't bow. He made,

[01:27:23] he made the world bow and I was the only one. And that's why he left. And, you know, I think we're, we're looking at this from the unreliable narrator, right? It's the, this was my view. My view was that I wouldn't bow to him. And therefore he bailed on me and ran's response of,

[01:27:46] he left you for the same reason I am because you're a horrible person and you're a monster. And I was just like, Oh, that's a, Oh, Oh, lose there. And you don't mean that. And she's like, what is wrong with you? Like, there's no way, but, uh, hard to hear, very hard to hear for someone who's been dedicated to quote unquote, saving this person. Um, but I did.

[01:28:16] She's only been wanting to save him for how it can benefit her. Right. And because she's upset that she was rejected, not because she actually thinks him being with her benefits him in some way. Right. Absolutely. Um, I'm trying to, where are my notes on brand? Like, Oh, here it is. Okay. Yeah. So, um,

[01:28:46] the fact that she was like wearing all white in that scene really kind of like made me go, wait, what, what is happening? Like she, I mean, all of her trying to play up her innocence there. Right. And then all of her fashion in this episode was fire. Like it was amazing. There was the white that she was wearing where she looks stunning, even in the ideal garb in the cadence or like she like pulled back the hood and you're just like, Ooh,

[01:29:15] she makes that look good. Um, the, then what she was wearing with Robin, where she was like, she had like the crazy crown looking thing. She looked like, um, from sleeping beauty. Oh, Maleficent. Yeah. She looked like Maleficent there. Yeah. She is like, it was just like, Oh, she's like going for the regal look here. And, and then, yeah, she kind of goes back to her battle gear, uh, towards the end with Wayne. Um, but, uh,

[01:29:46] like one of the things that I have definitively noted, and we saw it a couple of times in this episode is when she starts getting all like dark power and, or whatever, and like her eyes go black and she gets like that black goo, whatever. However, I don't know if she's like transforming into something else. If I want to see what the real land fear looks like, uh, if she looks different, like if this is like hiding something,

[01:30:15] if she's trapped in, or she's covering herself with this vision of someone else. Um, I want to see whatever that is. I thought that's what we were going to get to when she sort of like huffed up, but I mean, I think maybe it's just her toxic use of the one power, but I don't know, man. I do think he was playing with fire, baiting her like that. And it made me think of that, like hell hath no fury,

[01:30:44] like a woman scorned because for sure. Like, yeah, I mean, he hit her, she deserved it, but he hit, you know, the rawest nerve that she has with things. Yeah. The sore spot she has. So yeah. So she, you know, she gets all super offended and they're like, they like pop out of the dream. They're like, Oh, she's coming for us. I was like, you really like, none of this really makes sense. Like, I didn't think it was funny. She's not that patient. Yeah.

[01:31:13] It was a funny line, but it was exciting to see them all in one room, even though we didn't get a fight to see a Gwain, Rand, Avanda, Moraine, Lan, Bear, and Malane all out there, like ready for the fight. Like, could you imagine all of their powers combined? We'd get like a pretty cool. The problem is that it's like a room. And if Lynn fear happened to like identify where that was at, she could just bring down that house and they're all.

[01:31:43] Yeah. No, it wasn't. I mean, the fact that they thought this was would work, I think was kind of silly. You know, I guess they were, I can appreciate the baiting, but, but like, I thought that the result wasn't crazy smart. Maybe they had a plan that just didn't have, but especially because they revealed, especially because they revealed a Gwain to land fear. And so to me, if I was land fear,

[01:32:12] that would have been like red flag. Right. That this is a trap, you know, like Rand didn't try to force her out of the dream. A Gwain did, which means inherently he was working with at least one more person. It's a trap. Um, and, uh, yeah. So, so then she goes to Melindra who, uh, dark friend. And you're like, Oh, I kind of liked her, but then, and I'm just going to, because I'm talking about Melindra,

[01:32:41] I'm going to talk about, okay. So apparently she's going to go kill land, uh, which, and so she basically is like, I'm not going to, I, I, I swore my, my oath to save Malkia or Malkia, Malkia, and I can't kill you. So I'm just going to release my oaths in my brain, I guess. And therefore release my soul to ever. Like I get lost from the wheel forever. I'm never going to be reborn.

[01:33:10] I'm never going to do whatever. Um, like that. I, I like the emotion in it. I didn't particularly like the execution. Uh, uh, I thought that the actors did very well with what they were given, but I didn't particularly care for the writing there. Um, I thought that it was a cool visual of her soul being cut away forever. Uh, very similar to, um,

[01:33:41] to Jean Cades. Um, but like, it was, it's a couple of pretty significant deaths. Um, and then land has to live with that. I didn't really see how, like Melinda. I, I think maybe I was confused. I guess I was like a non book. I can tell you as a non book reader that I think she was very important for me in understanding

[01:34:07] more of who land is and why Malkir is so important. Um, like I know it had been referenced in previous seasons, but this helped me like refocus on it and understand like lands larger potential purpose in the world outside of Moiraine. Cause to me previously it was just like, this is your family history.

[01:34:33] There didn't seem like this possibility that he could go back and like reclaim it and, and like reestablish it. And so for me, her conversations with him over the season helped me understand what his potential future could be, um, outside of just following Moiraine's footsteps. Okay. then her sacrifice to me gives land even more purpose.

[01:35:03] Like here's one of the few times he's interacted with someone who's actually from his homeland and they sacrifice not only their current life, but their literal soul to save him. And so now knowing land and the way that will weigh on him, that will drive him even more strongly. I think eventually to try to go reestablish Malkir and become king of Malkir or,

[01:35:33] or at least in his heart want to strive to do that even more because someone, his only loyal subject that he's met really that we know of literally gave everything to save him. So to me, yes, it was done like kind of fast, but to me it felt important because now I understand like a potential purpose that land might have outside of just being a warder for Moiraine. Well,

[01:36:02] I'm going to say, I appreciate you bringing that up because I definitely didn't see it that way. Um, and I can completely understand now that you kind of like put it in words, I understand where you're coming from there because that is a, I mean, that's a, that's a huge, uh, that's a huge deal. And it did produce a very significant line from the book,

[01:36:31] which is death is lighter than a feather. Duty is heavier than a mountain. And, uh, I know that that's, I I've seen people say, Oh, I was hoping to get this line. And I mean, like it, it was delivered well. And, uh, I think that it means even more to land at this point because she was able to, yes, she gave up her soul forever. Um,

[01:37:00] but that was a moment. And his job is to, his duty is to go resurrect, um, the thing she sacrificed it for, which means he has to survive. Um, I didn't really understand how she was like, Oh, Lanfeo think you're dead. So you'll be able to like surprise her or whatever. Like, I didn't really feel like he was crazy. Uh, I, the whole one power shielding thing. Like, I don't understand how you can only block from one direction at a time. I, I,

[01:37:30] we've talked about it before. I'm kind of a little, some complaints about it. It would be, did it with Alana and two rivers and the crosswood bolts. Um, but you know, seeing land fear have to like block and multiple get, get cut because she was blocking boy rains fireballs. And, um, I didn't really understand the plot behind like, or not the plot, like the, the trickery behind, Oh, she'll think you're dead. You can use that against her. I, what,

[01:38:00] but what, fine. All right. And, and I think that that in particular really jaded me towards the character and the scene. Yes. It produced a couple of really good things, but I, like I said, I really appreciate you explaining it that way because it does lean more credence to what am I, you know, what, what am I lead setting my characters up to do? IE land as opposed to, to knock out land fear.

[01:38:30] Yeah. Yeah. I just had like a couple more notes of just things that sort of happened. Um, side pieces that happen sort of building up to what happened, happens at the end, Alkaer doll. Um, so sort of post the dream with land fear. Um, like you've already talked about Melendra and going to kill land, but then we had a few things like Rand is going with all the IEL to,

[01:38:59] um, how care doll. And I think a few things happened that were important that are mentioned on the way there one, they're kind of doing this early. They're not going to be able to wait on all the chiefs to get there. And that's sort of unusual too. It seems like they've brought, I mean, everybody, but like more fighters than really were expected. And I think from Florida to both, I don't know if we call them two factions. I know we have a lot of tribes and a lot of chiefs,

[01:39:27] but it seems like things sort of split out into the, ones that are wearing black, that seem to be more aligned with like Savannah and Couladon. And then ones that are more in Brown that end up falling. Yeah. Everybody else. Um, so like that, we know that's happening. Rooark really warns Rand very strongly not to reveal things about Roo and Ian once again, reminding him that like people cannot handle this.

[01:39:56] Avienda takes a Gwene aside a bit and says, like, Hey, like I have to follow Rand because this is my destiny as an Aeol. Um, but like, he's kind of a shit. He was sleeping with a literal forsaken and knew it. And like, basically tells the Gwene, like, if this wasn't my destiny and I didn't have to, I'd leave. And like, you should, like, there's no reason to follow him. Um, I just thought that was interesting and like very fitting with Avienda's, um, character.

[01:40:26] And just like, interesting to see a Gwene having to like mull this over. And I'm wondering where she will eventually land. Something that I felt was very important to mention, um, during this part, um, is that we got the return of Moraine's stupid hat. Uh, so like if they could be done in the Aeol waste now, so I don't have to see her wearing this stupid straw hat again, would love that. Um,

[01:40:53] although I am glad to know that there are other, um, watchers like Renee that love her hat. And so maybe I can be a little less bitter because at least I know there's someone out there enjoying it. Um, and then, yeah, we got the little visit of Lanfear to go Mark Culloden. Um, Oh yeah, that was the other thing. Savannah. I missed you. And to, to just like fake Mark him up,

[01:41:19] which honestly a little surprised that nobody like conjured up a fake tattoo in the past to be a false dragon among the Aeol or a false car car. I mean, um, but yeah, so really setting and man, I still love Savannah. I want to see more of her, but Culloden, I want to smack him across the face. He's such a stupid little, little man child. Can't handle it. Obviously playing the part very,

[01:41:49] very well. Um, if I feel that strongly about it, I have, I have a question. Did you get the sense that like Savannah and Culloden were dark friends? Cause I don't know. I didn't. Cause like, I don't, I think they're just power hungry. Like I'm also split sort of on a, a Lida also. Like, is she dark? Is she not? And I think there's just people who maybe aren't dark friends, but, um,

[01:42:18] want power above all. And so maybe they're not really, they're lacking in light or dark. They're sworn to their self. Right. You know? Um, well, cause like I was like, like, Lanfear told like the other wise one with Savannah to go. Yeah. And then she was like, I want, I'm just a person who wants the same thing you do. And, but she's in Cadence or, but she's using the one power to like put markings on Culloden's arms. And I was just like,

[01:42:49] I think they realized she was a forsaken and were willing to go along with it to get what they want, which is power. Um, and not having a wetlander take over. I don't necessarily think that they're like sworn to the dark or like, even really that entwined. I could easily see them being persuaded. Um,

[01:43:14] but I didn't really get that they were yet in cahoots with anybody, but they were just like, it wasn't part of the plan. And they were just like, Oh yeah, sure. Like you're gonna put dragons on my arms. All right. Cool. Yeah. That makes it work. Uh, maybe I'm wrong, but like, I just didn't, I didn't understand because like Glen fear wasn't like all in theory. Uh, she was just like, uh, uh, a maiden who came in and was like, yeah, I'll put some dragons on your arms. We'll be good. Um,

[01:43:44] Savannah, she's so slimy. Like it really irritates me. Guladin is like very much like the alpha bro who is just like, Oh yeah. Like I, Oh, we do not talk about what happened in Neridia because you know, I also went and what I, I am holy. I'm holy. I'm holy. I was like, Oh my God, you dude, you are killing me. He's the worst. She is too, but I'll forgive it. Cause I love her,

[01:44:13] but I hope he dies and she continues to show up as a baddie throughout. Like whatever, whatever she was wearing, like, it was like, like a snake, like a snake shaped. I don't even know what it was. Like it was almost maybe like a ceremonial. Like what would an evil sorceress wear? I think you would probably get that. So it was very on point. Yeah. It was, it was very, it didn't feel very maleficent.

[01:44:43] It didn't feel correct for the ideal though. Like I felt like her basket hat and the other things she's worn felt like regal and baddie, but like still within the ideal realm of things. But this felt very maleficent. Like you said, like it felt a little strange, but who knows? Maybe land fear after she did the cool tattoos, maybe she was like, bam. And here's a cool outfit for you. Who knows?

[01:45:12] So I will say that one of the things that I did enjoy earlier on in the episode. So we had like the trap, the, like the, the, the dream trap for land fear. And then it was like, okay, Hey, let's go. We did see Rand go and, you know, Hey, we're Harvey. I have to harvest. I still owe toe to harvest the squash. And, and yeah,

[01:45:42] and I, I can appreciate that. They did it. And it like the fact that like Egwene could barely look at him like, Oh, Hey Egwene, you go talk to him because you need to, because whatever, but it's like obviously painful for her to, to, to have to be the one to go talk to him. One of the things like in all the setup for the,

[01:46:08] I'll care to all care doll was my rain and Rand's conversation. Yes. And I, Yes. All the things I've complained about. Right. It was one conversation took care of so much. It was just like, it was you planning with land fear. Yes. Like no, no banding of words. It was just. More rain being truthful. What?

[01:46:38] What? And, and the fact that like Rand, like recognized that like, Hey, I like, you're not looking to like, yes, you were looking, you're looking to control me, but you just want me to win. And he, and her, she's like, Oh no, don't, don't like think too highly of me. I've been ready to kill you. If you were going to shift to the dark or you were going to,

[01:47:08] like, I was ready to murder you in your sleep. If you were either going to go mad or whatever. But yes, I want you to succeed for the light. His interpretation of it being that you want what I want. You want me to win for the light. You want me to make it to the last battle and at least have a fighting chance. And she's like, I mean, yes,

[01:47:37] that those are all true statements. And I agree with them. Yes. I planned with Lanphier. Yes. I suspected that she was torturing Egwene. Yes. I anticipated that you were going. Yes. It was to drive you guys apart. Yes. It was to, so that I would do it. You would do what I wanted you to do so that you would eventually succeed. And, um, and when he said, thank you,

[01:48:08] Rosalyn or Rosamund, Rosamund Pike's face. It was as good acting as in season one, when she felt land's sorrow for his friend through the bond at the funeral. And you saw her eyes just like well up. And like, it was a half a second, a second, maybe two. I was just like, Oh my God. Like I can,

[01:48:38] I can feel exactly what she's feeling in that moment. It was amazing. Like, it was so impressive. Yeah. I mean, it's something she's literally dedicated her entire life to and worked very hard for and had to hurt other people, um, and be very isolated in. And it's the first time there's been the payoff of like recognition because no one could recognize it because she couldn't even tell anyone else what she was doing.

[01:49:06] And for the first time she was truthful and open. She apologized. He said, thank you. Like what? Yeah. And layer onto it that the emotions she's feeling that like, she thinks she's about to give her life for his success. And before she dies, she got to hear him say, thank you. Like, that's what she's processing right there. Like, of course,

[01:49:36] that must've been very, very powerful for her. Um, and it makes me excited and interested to see what is next for their relationship as she continues to help him along. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was, it was a, it was a great scene between the two of them. Uh, I liked the fact that at the end he said, you've been with me from the beginning. Like you haven't left my side. I want you to be with me. Come stand with me today.

[01:50:06] And she's like, no, you do this on your own. Like they won't respect you if you have an Aes Sedai, you know, standing next to you. And I mean, and then Kuladin even said it, right. He said, Oh, he comes here on an Aes Sedai leash. Um, and you know, she was like, you're like, Oh, well she knew what she was talking about. Like she knew how it would be perceived and she plays the great game. Well, um, even if it's wildly frustrating at times. Yep.

[01:50:36] Um, do you think that about anything else that you had? I think, I feel like we got everything. That gets me sort of wrapped up. And like the last thing I have to talk about is sort of the big final overlaid scenes that we see. Yeah. Okay. Um, all right. Well, in that case, we are going to go ahead and take one more break for our points and we'll come back and finish up.

[01:51:00] We are back. Um, all right. So we've got basically just one big conglomerate point, uh, to, to finish with our, our final, like three location, uh,

[01:51:31] scene overlay. Um, so Veronica, how about you go ahead and, uh, set the table for us and we can talk our way through it. Cool. I think I will start out with, um, what was going on at Alkair doll, um, with Rand, because this was probably of the ending to me, what felt the most exciting and impactful. Um, all of it was very impactful, but this, I just saw it was,

[01:52:01] um, like I was hooked to the screen for it. Um, so Savannah comes out and presents Kooladin as the Karkar, and you already sort of talked about the way he's like, I am holy of holy, you know, like really talking himself up. Um, but Rand comes out and calls out like, no, no, like this is your prophecy. Like you, your wise one sent you out to the wetlands to look for me. Like I fit the prophecy.

[01:52:30] My father was Janduin of the Isil tribes. And even though I am of the blood, I was not raised by the blood. I was raised in the wetlands. That's where you came to look for me. Like my story fits your prophecy of who's the Karkar. Um, and that really just like immediately starts to cause a split in the IEL that are gathered there. Like you start to see this fallout of people who are sort of outraged at Rand and people who are sort of like, huh, what he says, you know,

[01:53:00] maybe this is interesting. Right. Um, and then Rand continues on, I think in response to Kooladin doubling down and deciding, decides that he's going to reveal what he saw in Ruidian. So exactly what Rourke warned him against. Um, and he starts to tell them, you know, like I saw in Ruidian, the time of the age of legends through my ancestors eyes.

[01:53:28] And this was a time when the IEL were called the Dasha. Is that correct? Dasha. The Dasha. Um, and they followed the way of the leaf and people start to like really murmur and like call him a liar. And Ruark again, like pulls him aside and is like, dude, like you are going to destroy them with the truth. And Rand is like, that's exactly what I was born to do is to destroy them. Um, and he screams out,

[01:53:56] you are oath breakers. Like, what is their greatest like disgrace is to be an oath breaker. And he not only implies it with what he just said, but then directly screams it out at them. Um, and you see sort of like everyone's shock. You see immediately the IEL tribes all sort of like turning on each other. Um, and then Rand like really goes pretty dark,

[01:54:26] like quoting out the prophecy, like screaming, if you turn your backs on me, you will die. Like I had a hard time in this moment knowing what is him being like an assertive dominant leader who's coming into who he is supposed to be as the dragon reborn, even like for the light or whatever. Um,

[01:54:51] and what is him sort of leaning into a little bit to the madness into the power hungry side. And I think it's like, he's on a knife's edge with that. Right. I think that was sort of scary. And you could see that concern of that going over many people's faces, but I think particularly, particularly Egwene, um, seemed to be quite concerned. Right.

[01:55:19] And then when he calls up that rainstorm, um, again, like similar to what we saw with Nynaeve, like using an immense amount of power and not really seeming to break much of a sweat doing it.

[01:55:39] And it seemed like that rainstorm is what really pulled many of the aisle over to bow down to him. I didn't really see, um, did Kooladan's people break off and follow him? Did some of them stay and bow? Was it only the people dressed in brown? Like, did you see what happened there with the breakdown of things?

[01:56:07] So one of the things that kind of threw me for a loop is because so much was going on, it was like bouncing between Swan and Weirane and Rand. And I, the first, my first watch, I didn't actually recognize that Kooladan walked up the stairs. Um, like you said, follow me and you know, we will go over the spine of the world. And, but like my first, I was like, now I just see Rand by himself down on this little platform. Where did Kooladan go? Like, this feels like a continuity error. Oh no, it's not a continuity error.

[01:56:37] Like you watched him walk up. I just missed it. Yeah. but, uh, I don't know. I, I, I imagine that all of the Shido, uh, followed Kooladan. Shido. I kept forgetting. kind of like, kind of like, like the Red Sisters would follow Elida, you know, back when that, they were all supporting Elida just because, because they were, that was one of them. Um, I want to mention a couple of specific things.

[01:57:06] Yeah. When he reveals that they were Dyshon, um, Avienda very specifically did not know. Yeah. And, and she looked at Bear. And I wondered that before, right? Right. Yeah. You mentioned it. Do the wise ones know or not? Yeah. So Bear, Bear did. I mean, she very specifically, I imagine that Ruark spoke with her about it, but so Avienda did not know that this was a thing.

[01:57:36] And where Rand says, I, now I understand. She didn't know what he was talking about. And that was, you know, that, that, that's where she didn't have the understanding. Yeah. And it makes more sense why she would be like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, like he thinks she's going through the same thing, but she's not. Um, and, and I was just like, like all of the,

[01:58:05] all of the blowback on the wise ones, on the ideal itself. I mean, but it comes back to the prophecy. Like I, like Ruark's like, no, they can't handle it. And I'm like a remnant of a remnant. He shall save. Like the prophecy defines what I'm going to save. And it is, I'm going to break a majority of your people. And then the, of that remnant,

[01:58:35] only a part of them are going to survive. So yes, you're right. Like they can't handle it, but we, that's literally a part of the prophecy. It's your prophecy. I didn't write it. I didn't make it up. I'm quoting what you guys have. And like, and I can appreciate Ruark's point of view on it because he's trying to save what he can. But I mean, man, it's just so frustrating. Like, okay, well, I've never had a chief of jeeps before. So like, I don't,

[01:59:04] I don't know how this really works, but you know, the prophecy, you know what it says. And maybe like, and then Rand even like said it, right. I will, I will break the ideal people. Um, as wind breaks, dried twigs and, and a remnant of rent of a remnant, he shall save. Like, yes, I'm, I'm here to break you period. That's what I'm starting to do right now. And, uh,

[01:59:35] and I, I really like, I, I, I, it's frustrating to me because like, bear seems very understanding. Mullane seems kind of understanding, but like, Rurik's her husband, like she, and they haven't had a conversation about this over the last three weeks or a month or however long. It's just wildly frustrating. Um, but, so I'll be honest, the, like last 15 minutes of it,

[02:00:04] I have like one line cause I was glued to just watching it. I was engaged in, in the show. Um, so, so I'm going to switch over to kind of a minor thing in Moirane. Yeah. So Moirane is protecting, you know, he said, he tells Rand or she tells Rand that, uh, he's, she's going to protect him from Lanfear. I didn't know where this was actually taking place.

[02:00:31] Like it looked like a giant circle of protection or whatever, but like there were a hundred thousand Aiel in there. So like when you saw like the numbers at the end of the episode, you're like, Oh my God, there's like way more than I realized that there were. Like I, they say the number, but it doesn't really register, but it was like, it looked like a field of wheat and each piece of wheat was a person. And it was, it was crazy.

[02:01:02] but so Moirane puts this huge thing of protection over using the Sakarnan and basically it's just kind of like waiting for Lanfear to show up. And so she does, she comes and knocks her down and then chokes her out with a power rope. Again, back to, I don't get it. Like, I don't understand why he wouldn't just stab her in the face or in the heart or whatever, but okay. I get it. Lanfear is maybe a little bit sadistic. She wants to,

[02:01:32] Moirane to understand that she is winning and she's, she's already taken care of her protection. And maybe that's where, that's what Melinda was talking about. Like she thinks that Lan is dead. So like, she's caught off guard when Lan actually is there. And Moirane's like, like she, you know, she sees Lan, she's a little bit surprised. And then Moirane like pulls the power through. I guess that's,

[02:02:01] I can see where that's maybe a little bit of a, like an advantage. Yeah. I mean, you know, she previously, when they were walking through the desert, like she stopped and listened to Moirane telling Lan that she believed it was the day she was going to die to Lanfear. And so I really do think that's what she thought. Like basically maybe this one small thing,

[02:02:30] Lan being a surprise will give Moirane enough advantage. And it was just enough to distract her from Moirane for Moirane to get out of that like chokehold. So I guess it worked. But again, like I have a hard time believing it would have distracted Lanfear to the extent that it did. And, and, and that it became so important.

[02:02:55] Like we've seen them create so many sharp, powerful weapons out of the one power. Why did she need the actual physical sword to stick through Moirane? Like that was weird, right? Basically to have the set piece so that Moirane could pull it out and have a pretty bad-ass moment of, um, rage. yeah,

[02:03:22] just like a loss and rage and all of the, the feelings at the same time. Um, but so what, what, if I remember correctly, because my notes suck, um, she comes up, she chokes out Moirane, then land comes up to, she sees land or land and Moirane pulls the power and blows Lanfear back. And then, so Moirane's like firing,

[02:03:49] chucking fireballs at her and lands swinging at her. She's block, block, block, block. Oh, fireballs at the same time as land hits her in the leg. Um, and then, oh, I'll just wait while you're healing yourself to hit her again. Come on. What are you doing? Same thing. And also she would not have taken that moment to heal her little cut on her leg. Right. Like it's just, yeah. I mean,

[02:04:18] I guess great reminder that land fear can easily heal herself, I suppose, but it just, again, felt frustrating. Like, well, the same way, like land fear could have killed Moirane seven different ways, uh, before the moment when she had to, you know, she's maybe playing with her a bit or whatever. She probably could have killed land with, uh, like, it just feels like they don't utilize the power as much as they should. Um, when, if you're going to be evil, be evil.

[02:04:47] Come on. Like, um, but, uh, but yeah, so that's my biggest complaint about this whole, this whole thing is that it's saying that most of this episode in general is that people could have killed the crap out of each other, but didn't because they waited an extra however long, uh, for someone to heal themselves or block or whatever, or, you know, learn to channel underwater, whatever. Um,

[02:05:17] but at least, at least I will say we aren't complaining this episode about people being brought back from the brink of death in ways that don't feel believable. So at least there's that, like, at least Nainave didn't like drown first and then somehow come back. Right. And at least like Moiraine while she was injured quite significantly with the sword,

[02:05:43] you could believe that someone could heal that wound because her heart hadn't stopped and her lungs were still intact. Yes, eventually she would have went septic. But if someone could heal her in time, you know, Lance 10 minutes away from carrying her to wherever she's going, that is a reasonable thing. It's not your six hours or overnight or whatever. Um, I agree, but, but we did not get,

[02:06:12] at least I don't think we got, we did get, uh, so anyway, so the land gets knocked down and then Moiraine's using Sakarna and she's shielding herself. And then when you're just like, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, And then she like uses like a welder on the shield, like cuts through it and then uses the sword to stab her through. And then in wildly inconvenient timing, um, for Lanphir, uh,

[02:06:43] Swan, um, this is the time and we will get to Swan, but Swan is killed in the tower and Moiraine feels the oath rod bond lift from her. Now I didn't understand how she felt that, um, until I saw someone explain it online that it was that oath that they had both taken together. And because one of them died, the oath. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:07:11] Moiraine was released from the oath. And when she was released from the oath, she knew the only way that it was going to happen was that because Swan was dead. Seems like a convenient thing, maybe to make a lot of like low stake oaths with your good friends. So, you know, you know that they're okay. Yeah. Maybe, maybe a, a, a, a, a slight misuse of the oath rod, but I get what you're saying.

[02:07:40] You're not hurting anybody. Moiraine realizes it's Swan. And she says Swan's name. And then Lanphir like, doesn't understand what's going on. And she's like, and you're about to die. And you're thinking about the woman who betrayed you. Oh my gosh. What a, what a loser. And just the wrong thing to say to a grieving spouse, widow, whatever.

[02:08:09] And so like Moiraine just goes full on Sakarnan, like cuts Lanphir's throat. And then Lanphir escapes through traveling. And like. What was it? Fast travel? Is that what you meant to say? Sure. Through fast travel. She fast travels elsewhere. And, and yeah,

[02:08:38] to somewhere with her, you know, with her. I mean, apparently she only needs to like go and sit somewhere for a few minutes while she like recovers from that, which is fine. But, yeah. So, and then Lan comes and gets her and then brings her. You know, that's kind of like the last thing that we see. We're going to come to Swan, but I just want to hit a couple of things with Rand real quick. So,

[02:09:08] Rand channels enough of the power by himself. And you can see the amount of the taint that is like covering the power as he is spreading it up into the sky. And, and I'm not a huge fan of like the dancing moves that he was doing in order to like get it to get it to go. But okay. Hey, you know what? He's figuring it out. He's doing what he's got to do. I want you to think back.

[02:09:39] It took Swan with however many sisters with her to put out the fires to, to make it rain in Kyrene. Right. At the end of season two, it took Alana with three powerful young, younger or Metherin channelers to create the hailstorm that drove off the Trollocs in,

[02:10:08] in last episode. Rand by himself pulls whatever minimal moisture there is in all of the sky in the Aiel Waste and consolidates it into basically a cyclone above a small area. And he makes it rain in this very crazy play.

[02:10:37] Like the amount of power that he had to expand in order to do that. That's absolutely bonkers. Like absolutely bonkers. Didn't even break a sweat. Not even a, not even a glimmer of burnout on his face. Nothing. And you're just like, how big of a well does he have to tap? Like how much power? And then when Egwene at the end, it was like, let it go Rand,

[02:11:07] let it, please let it go. And he just like, his, the, Yoshi's face was just like, Oh my God. Like, like, like you talk about being on that nice edge and you're like, it's a coin flip away from, I'm going to, I'm going to let it, let it burn. Um, I thought it was, it was, it was really, really good. Uh,

[02:11:35] I thought it was powerful and I thought it was a great way to end the episode. Having said that, I do want to talk about Swan. Um, do you want to start this? Yeah, I'll start. Okay. You take it home. Um, so, you know, we get a little bit of this setup, like prior to the very end of the episode,

[02:12:02] but we got the initial part of the episode where it's 10 years ago. And then we come back to a current day white tower. We basically see swans already trying to declare the white tower for the dragonry board and to communicate that out to, um, um, other people. Um, and even Lani, who's her, seems to be her staunchest supporter, her keeper, um, is like, I'm not even convinced of this. Like,

[02:12:32] you can't, like, you can legally do this alone, but like, this is not smart. This is the most significant thing in our history that could happen. Like, you need to have us, more of us on your side. Like, if you believe in it this strongly, you should be able to convince us, like, convince me. Um, and I was just sort of questioning, like,

[02:12:58] why is Swan being so dumb suddenly? Not dumb, but like, this feels out of character for her not to be smart. And the only thing I could sort of come to is that she's scared and lost in her grief, knowing she's about to lose Moiraine or believing she's about to lose Moiraine, right? Like, that's what she thought was about to happen. She didn't think she'd ever see her again and that she would die. Um,

[02:13:25] and so that's the only reason I could imagine her sort of just being not measured in her approach. I feel like we've seen her being measured throughout the rest of the series and to see her sort of acting this way felt a little bit out of character, but I guess put into the terms of her grief as well as urgency at the final sort of payoff to what she'd been working for with the oath, I guess. I guess that's how I reasoned it out.

[02:13:55] But like, did you feel like this seemed out of character for her to be acting this way? Um, I'm actually going to say no. And here's why. It is my opinion that Swan acted in secret for so many years.

[02:14:16] And I think that she was taking all of the action that she possibly could before bringing it to the tower. I think that she thought that she was, uh, not untouchable, but I think she thought that she had more protections than she did. And she's like, I'm just putting everything into place so that whenever it all happens,

[02:14:46] like, or let's say that, you know, it's like a kid who, uh, is like, Hey, um, I'm going to go see a concert. Um, so I'm going to have somebody buy the tickets and I'm going to set up all the rides. I'm not going to ask my parents yet because they might say no. And then, but if I, but if I could put all this stuff in place to begin with, then maybe I've got a better chance of them saying, well, okay, fine.

[02:15:15] Since you did all of this work in order and you, you've already committed this amount of money and all this. Okay, fine. We'll let you go. And all that. That's what I feel like she was doing. I feel like she was trying to put all the chess pieces in place so that the tower was almost trapped into, uh, committing to the dragon instead of asking permission to try to work that way. Um,

[02:15:45] I think that's why she sent off the letters without asking the hall first. Um, um, I think that's why she didn't explain anything to Liani. Um, I, my, that is my guess, estimation, whatever you want to say regarding it. Um, as to, I don't think it was out of character because I think that she knew how volatile the situation was going to be.

[02:16:13] And I think she also knew the white tower and it was going to take hours or days or weeks or whatever to get to the point where she just wanted to get support for Rand because that's how to support Moirane. Um, Um, and she misjudged, uh, that someone would depose her before she was able to accomplish all that.

[02:16:42] She didn't count on the lighter. All right. I can buy it. Still think it was dumb, but I don't disagree. Um, but it, to me, it's, it's almost like she, it seemed like maybe she kind of had already accepted that she was going to get deposed. Um, I don't think that she had because she was, you know, she was still the ambulance seat and she, her final speech was phenomenal. Yeah. But I also,

[02:17:11] I do feel like Liana, Liana, and maybe she was afraid that Liana was black Aja and, you know, was afraid of all of the, of anybody else that she sought help with. Um, so like, I, I would say that, that those would be my arguments against, I mean, she was trusting accepted to go hunt the black Aja, like, cause she couldn't trust anyone else. Like, is she, is she going to trust anybody in the tower?

[02:17:41] No. I mean, again, that's just, just my, but yes, I do agree. No, but I think that's a fair reframe. Um, but so, uh, yeah, that is that. So I, I'm not going to say, does that answer your question? But like, that's my viewpoint on it. Yeah, no, I think that helps reframe it and makes it, I feel slightly less critical and understand a little more, um, how she might've been thinking. Um, yeah.

[02:18:11] So, but that sets a light up perfectly to get people on her side, because I think a lot of, you know, well-intentioned, I said I within the tower could see that as really, um, impeachable behavior. Yeah. And could find it believable, could find it believable that she was possibly black Aja by working secretly to declare for the black, for the dragon reborn.

[02:18:40] I think it's believable that several Aes Sedai could be swayed over to take the actions they did. Um, and so, you know, we see a lie to send the eight red sisters out as sort of a false, a red herring so that they'll send their most trusted Aes Sedai to closest people to Swan out to stop them. I did wonder, like, what could have played out differently had they been there? Um,

[02:19:10] obviously, Elida still had the majority she needed to do the things she wanted. I mean, I guess what could have happened is that there could have been a bigger fight because Liane seemed really, more protection for Swan. Yeah. Yeah. Liane seemed really, um, ready to fight. And so if you'd had 10 other sisters, they're willing to back them. Like maybe things wouldn't have played out as easily, um,

[02:19:39] as they did for Elida. Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, I wasn't expecting at all for Swan to go down like this. Um, and I feel like they almost, like, the way they broke it up, the way they stilled her first and took the one power away, and then sort of, like, broke away from it, and then came back. Like,

[02:20:07] I thought that was the worst that was happening to Swan, right? Was that she was being stilled. And that seemed still very, very significant and terrible of a thing to happen. And scary that Elida was now taking over and what this meant for long-term plans. But then for them to circle back and Swan is now not only been stilled, but is quite beaten up. And Elida comes back in,

[02:20:36] in her full, you know, Amarylline glory, with, uh, the crown, like the sun crown on her head. And then, you know, basically, they allow Swan to say her piece, and man, did she say it. But nobody seemed to care, because they're like, look, you've already been sentenced to death. And they just killed her. I mean, and this all happened. I mean, this all happened pretty quickly,

[02:21:03] because all of the other eyes to die were still not in the white tower. Like they were still held out. So, it was a pretty big, pretty fast, uh, turnaround. But yeah, I'm curious very much to hear your thoughts. I do know from the internet that this was not expected by book readers, and this was not the way, um, things played out,

[02:21:32] or at least the timeline in which things played out for Swan in the book. So, it seems like the second time this season that we've had a pretty big character death that surprised, uh, book readers. Yeah, this was, kind of like you were saying, the stilling, um, I feel like this was, this was a red herring, um, because book readers, you know, you,

[02:22:01] she, that does happen to Swan in the book. Um, and, um, then, you know, she goes on to live as a non, I said, I, uh, she's still involved in storylines and stuff, but like she, she has to accustomed to be, to, to live as a, as a, a normal person. Um,

[02:22:29] but when they come back, like, did it shock me? Yeah, it's, it surprised me. I obviously wasn't expecting it. Um, but as a, as a story, like her death is actually what gave Moiraine the strength and the rage to, uh, and the loss to, to kind of get a stalemate, uh, against Linfear.

[02:22:59] Um, what's that? Like, I, that just kind of gave me chills because I realized like, as, as Swan was saying, like, I would die for her. She literally did. Like her death saved Moiraine. That's a really good point. And I don't think I really quite realized that until you were saying those words. Um, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So, I mean, it's, uh, it, it was, I think that the character of Swan Sanche, um,

[02:23:28] had amazing arcs in this show. Uh, uh, you saw a lot of different sides of her. You saw her as this very strong, powerful, uh, Amarlyn. You saw her as a very caring, loving, uh, lover with Moiraine. you saw her as a younger, let's say younger, uh, you know, woman in love. Um, and,

[02:23:56] and then you see her as she's been stilled. She has had the thing that makes life worth living to many of these people. Stripped away from her. And she's not sorrowful. She's not a puddle on the ground. When she's called to say the truth,

[02:24:22] she speaks the truth as well as she possibly can. And it is not a, I did this because I thought it was what was best. It was not, I did this for the good of the tower. It was not, I did. I did this because it's what I had to do. You call me a dark friend. I defy you. You will, you will stand behind this woman who loves nothing more than power. The loves nothing,

[02:24:52] loves nothing about the tower, but only power. She stands behind nothing but emptiness. You will stand with her. I defy you, Elida. I mean, it was, that was strong. Like that was an amazing presentation. That was an amazing. And, and for it to be cut short like that, to be, for it to be like, oh, well the vote's already been passed. Boom. You're dead. I'm like, oh shit. Like what?

[02:25:22] Yeah. It was, I mean, I was expecting for her to be taken away and, you know, caged or locked up or whatever, but. Same. Like, it, it, it, it definitely surprised me. It definitely shocked me. But man, was it, it was, it was a hell of a way to go out. And then to understand that without her death, Moiraine, you had to come up with some other reason for Moiraine to, to survive in the,

[02:25:52] in the, the waste. Um, it was, I thought it was very, very powerful. And I thought that, uh, Sophia Kendo, um, did an amazing job. Like she was, this was a glorious scene. Um, that yes, immediately preceded her death. Yeah. Um, but it was a very, it was a, it was, it was a surprise. And, you know,

[02:26:21] I know that a lot of people, uh, who were hoping to see some of the future storylines that Swan was in, involved in. Um, it's, it's hard to accept that this powerful, uh, character is not going to be there anymore, especially when you see some of the things that she had done in the books. I do appreciate though, you know,

[02:26:50] both these big deaths that we've had the last two episodes have felt really meaningful. Like they went in honorable ways, in ways that, um, helped further the storyline for our other characters in ways that helped, you know, save other characters that we care about. And so I think like no better honor for a character when they die to have like meaning to their death. And so they've done a really nice job of that.

[02:27:21] Yeah. Meaningful sacrifice is all you can ask as a person who dies, right? Like as a person, like if, if you were dying as a sacrifice, there's nothing worse than having your sacrifice mean nothing. And, you know, loyal, um, you know, dying. So that probably I'm assuming dying. So that, uh, so that he could, you know, so that Perrin could save or the two rivers in general could be saved. And then,

[02:27:50] uh, Swan dying so that Moiraine could, uh, could, could move forward and hers. Um, I think that, and there's part of an article that we're going to address, or I'm going to read, we're going to read a little bit later. Um, it addresses this, this change, um, between, you know, of, of Swan dying. And, uh, they, and Rafe Jenkins talks about, we wanted you to think, are we going to lose Moiraine?

[02:28:20] Are we going to lose Lanphier? Are we going to lose Moiraine and Lanphier? What's going to happen? And then your, all your attention's pulled away from that. You think, you know, what's going to happen over here. And it's like, Hey, Hey, look at my right hand, look at my right hand. Oh, left hand just knocked, you know, you literally just chops off Swan's head. And he was like, Oh, Oh my God. I thought they did a great job of, of not forecasting it and taking a, a gut punches is really just the, uh, the,

[02:28:49] the best description for it. Yeah. Uh, what's crazy is that this ends the season and it doesn't feel like it should end the season. So just one last little quick, hopefully a quick point. Um, where do we leave everybody? Right? So, uh, the last little segment of the show where it's like the montage of everybody seeing what Rand is causing in the sky. Um,

[02:29:18] so 98, Matt, men and Elaine and Tom are all on a ship coming somewhere, but looking at, you know, the, at the sky. Um, um, we have, uh, Perrin we didn't actually see. Um, but you know, maybe like we know that he was taken by the white cloaks to somewhere.

[02:29:43] We did see fail and Bane and she had overlooking, um, maybe there probably, it looks like they're following the white cloak army, uh, to go try to rescue Perrin. I'm assuming. I, I'll be honest, both times. So much stuff was happening and I was trying to like, whenever I watched it, I was like, what are they looking at? I don't get it. But like, as I was talking about it now, I was like, Oh yeah, they're looking at the white cloak, like white cloak army, um,

[02:30:10] watching like white cloaks leave and they're going to go break out Perrin. Um, and then who else did we see? Uh, I mean, from last episode, a lot of Maxim are going to go off. Oh yeah. Some shenanigans. Side adventure. Um, I mean, we know, like, I think it's up in the air. What's going to happen with a Gwaine,

[02:30:35] whether she's going to continue to try to follow Rand or split off and go do her own thing. But I mean, I guess the next thing is Rand and Moiraine and land are going to lead the aisle out of the aisle ways. Maybe. Um, I, and go, I mean, the next thing they were planning to possibly go do. The Calendor. That land fear is now about to go try to get with, uh, what's his name?

[02:31:05] Um, so yeah, I guess, I guess the next step would be figuring out what the deal is with the ideal. Uh, if we are like, are they going to fight each other? Are they going to follow Rand? Um, and that's what the hard part here is like, there's no definitive like answer. Yes, we figured it out. Um, you know, and Rand's kind of like on this nice, nice edge of, I am the Karakarn. If you don't follow me, you will die. I am the dragon reborn.

[02:31:34] I am all of the things. Do what I tell you to do. Uh, Moiraine, edge of death, probably going to get healed. Lanfear, cutthroat, or a cut throat, uh, probably going to get healed. Um, yeah. Gideon and Leandrin have the collar and the bracelets and have possibly teamed up.

[02:32:01] Whether that team will work well together or not remains to be seen, but Moiraine seems to know where everyone is. Like she seems to know where Rand is. She went and killed Samael. She went out and- So Samael is gone. Samael is, is, is, uh, is doing whatever with probably Raven. Uh, Elaine's supposed to go back to, uh, Andor to take out or to like basically protect her throne. Um,

[02:32:30] like there's so many things that like they're supposed to go do stuff. I am livid that we have not gotten a season for renewal yet. Uh, I am absolutely furious. Like this has been the best reviewed season of the series so far. It's like on Rotten Tomatoes. I think I saw it was at 97%. Like what the F are you actually waiting for? Greenlight season four.

[02:33:00] All you're doing is making people angry. Like it's- You know, I mean, I was thinking about this cause this has also been a topic and ongoing topic with yellow jackets too, which just wrapped and they haven't yet heard of there's going to be a new season or not, at least in the last couple of days, unless something's changed. And I mean, I guess there's just so much that goes into negotiations to beyond just like green lighting and like, you know,

[02:33:28] maybe they're trying to get them to agree to like two seasons, you know, or, or like, you know, maybe they're trying to get them to agree to more than just one season. So like, maybe those are the kinds of things that are holding up. I don't know. I'm going to put my, I'm going to put my fan hat on. Okay. You don't make a deal to only make the fellowship of the ring and the two towers. You don't do it.

[02:33:57] You have to have a return of the King. You don't make a deal to start something that's already finished without being able to end it. That's bullshit. These people are, that is irresponsible to do this. And I don't give a shit how much money Jeff Bezos has. You open this can, you finish the fucking food that's inside it. All right. Rant done. No, I agree.

[02:34:27] I agree. Sorry. I hope very much that we get those seasons. I agree. And it's like, they made two more Hobbit movies when they could have done the entire book in one movie, but they didn't, they added a bunch of extra crazy stuff and made them three hours long. And I'm not saying that they were bad. Like, I know a lot of people don't like them, but I didn't mind them. I thought they were okay.

[02:34:56] You've got an automatic fan base. You've done an amazing job. These actors have done phenomenal things. Just give me my eight seasons. Oh my God. I mean, it would be really surprising to me if, if it doesn't. This would be Firefly. This would be Firefly all over again. Incredibly well. Okay. All right. Rant over. Okay. We don't have a lot left. I know we've gone for a long time tonight, but we're going to go ahead and take,

[02:35:26] I think this is the last break. And then we will, we'll call it for the evening. Thanks for sticking with us. We'll be back in a few. Okay. And we're back. All right. So we finally are going to do some news here.

[02:35:51] I just have this one article from Rafe Judkins talking with collider.com. Speaking to Carly Lane. So Veronica is going to play Carly and I'm going to read Rafe Judkins' part. You want to get that started, Veronica? Yeah. So Carly asked, there were a lot of fan theories going around about Moirane. And land fear this season. Some of them rooted in book knowledge that one or both of them might not make it out of their fight.

[02:36:20] Was there ever a version of this sequence where that was the case? Were you tossing around different outcomes at all? We knew that what we wanted to do was make you nervous that Moirane was going to die. So you weren't seeing the death of Swan coming. And that is hopefully how the dramatic tension is playing out in the finale. That the audience is so worried about Moirane, they forget to worry about Swan. So that the tower coup has this gut punch. And I will say, I think that it did. I remember when I read the tower coup in the books, I just lost it. I threw down the book.

[02:36:50] I called my mom. We wanted that same gut punch to come from the tower coup in the show. So we built up the Moirane, land fear story. So it'd feel like you were going to lose Moirane or Moirane and land fear. And then you lose Swan instead. Speaking of Swan, I was initially really shocked when I watched the scene, but in hindsight, given what happens in the books, I don't know that I can picture this version of Swan doing a man's laundry, for instance. What fueled the decision to kill her off?

[02:37:18] I had a long conversation with Sophia Okunato, who plays Swan early in the process. And I was like, this is the story that continues later in the later books. To be honest, for both of us, it felt like that wasn't really a story we needed an Academy Award nominee playing necessarily in the show. It's just hard to have an actress at Sophie's level sidelined to that degree, but still being present throughout the show. She has a great storyline with Egwene that we do lose, which is really the biggest loss to losing Swan,

[02:37:48] but we have a plan of how we're able to still tell that story, but with a different character. We're always thinking. It's never like, oh, you know what would be shocking? Kill Swan. Five billion conversations have gone into it. We know exactly what we're doing with every storyline Swan has in the books, and who's taking over those, and which ones are getting cut. Anytime we make a change like that, we have a plan for how that's going to flutter through the rest of the series. For us, it ultimately came down to the fall of the Tower

[02:38:17] as the peak of drama and tension for the White Tower and for Swan. And so to continue her story after that, it just didn't feel like our version of Swan made as much sense in that story. Is there anything that you can say about a status update for season four? I can't say anything, but we have great plans for it. If we do get to do it, I think it's going to be fucking amazing. If, if,

[02:38:46] oh my God, Jesus. Sorry. Yeah. All right. You know, I have to say though, like, I was never worried that we were going to lose Moiraine or Landfear in this episode. Like, not even for a minute. I know that may be like variations of expectations based on like whether you're a book reader or not, but as a non-book reader, like Moiraine feels like a main character. I didn't think we were going to lose her,

[02:39:14] at least not this sort of early still in the timeline. And Landfear, same thing, feels too like critical. Like I wasn't worried about them. I think to me, um, I really didn't see her as in danger of dying. I really thought she might like lose, uh, her seat, but I didn't anticipate that at all. But I,

[02:39:43] I wasn't worried for Moiraine. So I can appreciate that. Like, uh, Rosamund Pike is an executive producer on the show. I mean, I know you're not going to have, and she's like reading the audio books. Like, I just felt like she, she's central to the story. I feel like for a long time, I can appreciate that. No, I can totally appreciate that. Um, all right. So I'm going to link the, that article in the show notes and, uh, we can go ahead. And, uh, if you guys want to look through the rest of it,

[02:40:13] it's actually really good. There are some book spoilers in there. I tried to take as much as I could out, um, and actually still have the lines make sense, but, uh, all right. So let's move into the feedback section. Uh, Veronica, how about you take the, the first of those? Yeah. So this is from Jeff Haker. Really enjoyed the finale. Shora is absolutely perfect as a Lida. She took Avin Saraya from the expanse up to 11.

[02:40:41] I think I messed that name up and I don't understand that reference. So the expanse was the show that she was in. Um, and apparently she was amazing in that show and she took that character up to an alum. Nice. You know, side note, uh, along those lines, I was looking her up today on IMDB and she's done a lot of like, voice acting. She's in a lot of video games and like, she's got that crazy cool voice. So it makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.

[02:41:12] Anyways, back to Jeff's comment. Nainave can now channel at will. Look out Leandrin at all. I agree. We got the eel fin, which I was not sure if they would go there. So that will be interesting to come back to. Rand is now the Lysane Al Gabe. I mean, Karakaran. It's from the books. No, it's, it's just the old tongue. Balefire was so cool to see on screen. So everyone watch out.

[02:41:40] So you're not burned from the pattern. Rip Swan. Though I'm not going to believe she's actually dead until the finale of the entire show. And she does not return. Fair. I did have a thought about Loyal. In the books, we see an exploration of characters being born out of the pattern, living their lives and going back into the pattern in a cycle of reincarnation. And we see one character brought out of the pattern. I think through Teleron Ryoed,

[02:42:09] if I'm remembering correctly into the real world. I was thinking this could be a way to bring Loyal back again. Again, I'm not going to believe any of the main or recurring characters are killed until the finale of the show. Fair. Yeah. Okay. Really, really hoping they renew the show for enough seasons to finish the story right so they can plan out what to do. I think they could do it in three, though five more would be better. Thanks for the coverage throughout the season. And I look forward to next season as well. Listening to y'all. For the light.

[02:42:40] Well, thanks for your feedback, Jeff. It's been a, it's been nice chatting with you in the chat. I did want to let people know. So from the wheel of time, like prime, whatever Facebook group that I've posted this in, there were a lot of, of posts that were like less than 24 hours after the episode aired. So the feedback posts that I put up, if you commented on it, uh, I did not.

[02:43:10] They actually, I think the admins took down a bunch of the posts because, um, people were, uh, very upset, like overseas where it wasn't released yet. So people are getting spoilers. Yeah. People are getting spoilers all over the place. So, uh, uh, my bad. Uh, I know I put a picture of, of Nynaeve, um, doing her thing up on that. Uh, and, and I imagine that people were talking about the episode as I asked them to, but, uh, so I don't have any of those comments cause they remove those posts.

[02:43:40] So my fault, uh, Dodie Sheffield. Uh, wow. Talk about gut punched. They really flipped my expectations. Swan. No, I get it. I, I do understand that. Carlos Frederick. This episode kicked me in the gut and had me stressed out, but I loved it with a broken heart. Uh, I, I get it. Um, that's a, it was a big loss. Uh,

[02:44:10] JC Harris. I'm still processing the ending. I didn't like how Swan tells them a truth. And then there was no response about it. Not for a single person in that hall. It didn't matter to anyone. They were just like, yeah, well, thanks for, thanks for that. You're, you're dead. Uh, I agree. Like this was very frustrating to watch. Like there wasn't like a trial. Hey, they're, you're, they're deposed. You're, you were deposed because you did X, Y, and Z and you didn't talk to us about it and you overstepped your bounds. Okay, sure. I get that.

[02:44:39] I can appreciate that completely, but, uh, like to, to vote, to kill someone and you haven't actually like heard anything from them. Um, um, even if you believe that she's a dark friend, like, and you're just gonna, whatever you, you haven't heard anything from her. There's no tower, like legal system or whatever. It's just like, Oh, people convinced me that you were evil. So you're out. It just, it just seems like it's,

[02:45:09] it's rife, um, with dangers of politics in general. And it just feels, I completely agree. Jesse is kind of ridiculous. I agree. It feels like for how smart the ice and I are laid out to be that they would have better checks and balances in their political system or that things would have fallen apart before now. Um, Yeah.

[02:45:38] If the system was this flawed. It just seems like a very, like, I get it. Like dragon reborn is like a big, big deal. It's like a world ending events, but like, come on, come on, man. It just, it just makes you not trust any of the system. All right. So our last comment is from Eric Rollerson. I was wondering how Laini was able to attempt to use the one power against Alida.

[02:46:07] Was that because she swans keeper and felt eminent danger? Sure. So, uh, I, I will say that, uh, I think we've kind of talked about this in the past. Um, but you can use the one power in defense of, uh, another Aes Sedai or your warder or whatever. It, it, I think that it means that she believed that there was an inherent danger to a fellow Aes Sedai. Great. And it was from a different Aes Sedai, but,

[02:46:37] um, but she was, it seemed to me like she was doing it in pure defense of, of Swan. So it was able to bypass the three oaths. Fair. All right. So that is, as I said, like we, we missed out on quite a few comments, uh, from the other web social site. So, uh, I, my fault, um, you know, we'll have to remember to not post a,

[02:47:04] a thing until like the day after the episode comes out, give people an opportunity to like re listen and, or watch it and, and process it. Um, but, uh, thank you so much for listening this entire season. Like I know it ended, it only ended up being like six weeks, but, uh, it has been quite a ride and it's been awesome to hang out with you, Veronica for, for these, you know, eight episodes. Um, I really have come to value the questions as well as like, I mean, just literally tonight,

[02:47:34] like you were like, Hey, I looked at it like this. I was like, Oh, I actually really appreciate that more. And hopefully some of you guys out there, uh, can listen to us and, and appreciate some of those things as more as well. Um, this like it's, it's been amazing this, this season. Uh, like we've had a lot of, of great episodes. And then the feedback that you guys have given us has been phenomenal as well. Uh, I I'm considering, like, uh, reading, like some releasing,

[02:48:03] releasing some podcasts. Maybe we'll come back and talk about some wheel of time updates. If we get a word of renewal or updates or something like that. Um, and then we're looking at some possibly releasing some other stuff, uh, just as, as, as asides, or maybe we'll go take a look at the, at the, uh, the little shorts from like season one and we can come back and like do a review of those or something like that. Uh, it won't be nearly as often, but, uh, you know, just, just keep it alive. Um,

[02:48:33] but if you don't mind, go to your podcast, give us, go to wherever you listen and give us a rating, give us a review, uh, helps us reach more listeners, even though we won't be back necessarily very often for a while. Um, but, uh, if you like something, let us know. If you don't like something, let us know and we'll do what we can to remember when we come back on in a couple of years. Um, you should definitely go out in the interim and check out all the other great

[02:49:02] shows on podcast. I already mentioned yellow jackets. Um, right now we have, uh, the last of us back, um, airing week by week from HBO and they're covering that on the flagship cast of us podcast. Um, so you should definitely tune in for that. Greg, are you listening to anything else right now or watching anything else? Um, I have been, uh, what was I just watching?

[02:49:31] Last of us is the biggest one that I, I haven't really been watching a ton of other stuff at the moment, at least not modern stuff. I know invincible. I've been trying to catch up on that because that's been phenomenal, but, uh, I've heard amazing things about season, the end of the end of the series. All right. Well, that's our show. Thanks for listening, everybody. Uh, if you would like to write in and let us know that, you know, we're doing stuff, uh, what we can do, uh, please, um, um,

[02:50:00] you can email us at, uh, talk at podcast.com. You can check out our Facebook page at facebook.com slash podcast.com, where you can see more things about our coverage of wheel of time. But like I mentioned in the interim, you can also hear about all the other exciting shows podcast is covering. Yeah. Handmaid's tale, uh, which just started back up. Like they're, they're covering that Jason, uh, and Wendy. And are you going to be on that one too? No, I'm not, but I just started listening to it. And it's,

[02:50:30] uh, I mean, I just started watching the show and I'm going to start listening to the podcast. I'm so excited that it's back. Yeah. And also, and or is back. Um, Jonathan and James, two of my podcast favorites are back covering and or they did a, um, episode where they covered, kind of caught back up on the last season. And man, like I love star Wars, but and or is something different. Um,

[02:50:59] it has a different fee. It's still like the good feel of the star Wars universe, but it is a different feel to that show. And, um, it's so fun. And Jonathan and James do such a good job covering it. So I just had to gush about it a little bit. I hear you. Uh, we don't know what's going to come next on this podcast. So we're just going to, going to leave it there. Uh, but thus ends another episode and another season of the wheel of time cast.

[02:51:28] There are no beginnings or endings in the wheel, but it is an ending for the land is one with the dragon reborn. And he is one with the land soul of fire, heart of stone. In pride. He conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel and the seas to give way and the very skies to bow.

[02:51:56] Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears and the soul of fire. Love.