707: "East" (TWD S6E15 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] You have one new message. Wink, wink, wink, wink. Translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney+. You could say that again. Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever and a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard Potato, it's certified fresh and verified hot. Woo! Now, we party. Woo! I am clear in the rest of the day. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers. Now available on Disney+. Rated PG.

[00:00:29] So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60% off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas and Free People. Join the Nordi Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. Hmm? Ah!

[00:01:00] Oh. Oh. That's the girl. She's worried about an attack. When they come for us, we'll end it. The whole thing. This won't be like before. We're putting everything in place and these people know what to do now. The world's ours. And we know how to take it.

[00:02:01] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Walking Dead cast episode 707. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season 6 episode 15 East. East. East. But that's not what Lucy thought we were covering. Fuck no, I thought we were doing Last Day on Earth so I've prepared for the wrong one. But you watched East and that was absolutely both of our faults because we both said, oh, we're doing this right? And you said, we're doing this.

[00:02:29] And we both said yes, even though we were on the whole wrong page. It was a real fuck up of a situation. But here we are. It's okay because as I said last episode, we're taking turns doing major prep. So this was my week anyway. So I'm confident that Lucy can wing it like a pro. I will do my best. Pretend you're in an improv class. Yeah, absolutely. I will do my best. And I'll even give you at the end of the episode, I can give you a preview of my thoughts for next week when I'm not here.

[00:02:56] Yeah, unfortunately, just because of the way the schedule's worked out, Lucy won't be able to do the season finale. We're having Alex on, which is great because he's going to be, you know, co-hosting Dead City again. And we need an apologist. We do. We absolutely do. We absolutely do. Yeah. And then you'll be back for the season seven premiere. That's a really fun one if I remember right. Oh, it's so good. I'm so excited. It's gonna be a laugh minute.

[00:03:22] I have sort of decided having watched Last Day on Earth that I'm just gonna part of me is like, maybe I'll just be really flippant about everything. I just won't care. I was like, yeah, it's fine. That's cool. All right. Everyone died. That's all right. I'm not upset about that. It's fine. You had asked if Randy could come on for one and he volunteered to come on for that one because he thought we could use some funniness. Oh, my God. But we already had Alex. So he's going to come on for the one. Randy's going to come on for the one where Daryl's in jail because he said that should be a fun one, too.

[00:03:51] Easy street. Yeah, it'd be great. You're really. But I wanted to mention before we get into this episode that I've been going through more episodes to edit all the copyrighted music out. Oh, nice. And I got, you know, I think there was around 1500 episodes total and I have 180 left to go. Oh, wow. So I'm almost done.

[00:04:14] But I got to the Fear the Walking Dead episodes and I was just so struck by how much fun me and Duncan and Melissa had doing that. Because Melissa's fucking right. You could just go to any moment and she'll say something funny. And one that stuck out to me is I just heard Duncan say, because of the way our points shook out, he goes, OK, I'm just going to combine my number two with your number two. Oh, I remember that.

[00:04:44] She goes, ew. That was so funny. Amazing. But she's so quick. But anyway, I also I hadn't realized how much you were on the Game of Thrones rewatch with Kristen. You just kept popping up. Yeah. I forgot. Yeah, I know. It seems like so long ago now. But yeah, I was on there a whole bunch with Kristen. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:09] It's just been so fun to be forced to go back and just, you know, I'm not listening to the whole podcast every time, but just little bits and pieces and remember how much fun we had and how great everybody was. It was. And they still are, but just it's so nostalgic because we've been doing this for 15 years now. You know, you guys were great. Oh, that's awesome. Really cool. Anyway, let's get into it. The Walking Dead season six, episode 15 East. Would you like to read the summary?

[00:05:36] Yeah, especially because I didn't prepare for this episode. What happens? While Alexandria is locked down against the savior threat, Carol is caught by a group of saviors who want to use her to get into the community. She kills most of them, but one Roman survives and pursues her on foot. Rick and Morgan follow a blood trail they believe is Carol's until Morgan sends Rick back due to his murderous reaction towards a non-hostile survivor.

[00:06:00] Aided by Glenn, Michonne and Rosita, Daryl hunts Dwight to avenge Denise, but the four of them are captured in the woods by Dwight and the saviors. Mm hmm. So how was it to watch this one? Well, I was really waiting for the next one. It was good. It was good. I find these last few episodes kind of agonizing because of where they're heading. Yeah, it's like a train headed for, you know, the bridge is out. Yeah. And the train just keeps on chugging right towards it.

[00:06:30] Yeah. It's nice to see. I was thinking, you know, Rick and Morgan, although Morgan's in for another two seasons, it was nice to have some Rick and Morgan stuff together. Absolutely. I like that too. And I'd forgotten that the reason Glenn, Michonne, Rosita and Daryl are captured is because Daryl's going out to hunt Dwight. Me too. So I guess he must feel pretty guilty about Glenn because that's two reasons. I mean, yeah, that's right. I had only thought that Daryl would feel guilty because he punched Negan.

[00:06:59] But it was also because he's going off half cocked looking for Dwight. And here's Glenn trying to talk some sense into him. Yeah, they have a disagreement. You need to come back. You're going to, it's going to be in trouble. You need to come back. You know, we got to think this through. And Daryl's like, I can't, I got to go. And that's exactly the same impulse that had him punching Negan. He's just a slave to his aggressive emotions. And, you know, we can all identify with that. Absolutely. I can.

[00:07:26] I wanted to punch Negan in the face too, but I'm just saying sometimes the better thing is to not give into your aggression and instead take a step back, take a beat and think what the smartest thing would be to do to help the people that you care about. Right? So this is two things that Daryl's doing here. And I think that, you know, I don't know. Daryl's like that anyway. So maybe he would have just done this anyway, but Rick's not setting a good example right now. And sometimes you take cues from your leaders. Yeah.

[00:07:56] Everyone's a bit messy. Yeah. They're all triggered. You know, they're all, yeah, they're all triggered. But Glenn is the one. It's so tragic because he's throughout this episode trying to get people to be like, let's go back and regroup and do think together and figure this out. Not just go spread out all separately, all angry and ready to kill. Yeah. Because it doesn't work and it gets Glenn killed. Yeah, it does. Yeah. It's so sad. It was nice to see him and Maggie have like a nice moment together. But yeah.

[00:08:26] It was. Yeah. It was one of the best, nicest moments of them ever. Yeah. I thought it really stands out. Well, I thought it was, it was a good episode, but it was kind of tragic knowing where it's going and I feel frustrated for the characters. And I think this is Rick at his very darkest. And he's also like fucking shitty and smugness, which I hate. Yeah. He's so smug. Cocky. Oh, we got a handle. We can handle anything. And it feels like Breaking Bad to me.

[00:08:55] He feels like Walter White in this episode. It's the apple in this episode or the next one. Him and Michonne waking up. Yeah. That's this one. Yeah. I thought that was a nice moment too, but then he gets cocky towards the end of it. Yeah. I mean, it's just also like the minute an apple comes up, you're like, oh, someone's either evil or something bad's about to happen. Yeah. It's very biblical. Are we the bad guys? We're the ones eating the apple. Like, yeah.

[00:09:20] Um, and I, you know, there was a part of me watching this, just sort of fantasizing that they would do something different this time and then we could get a different season seven and eight. Oh God. Same thing. It's a bummer when that happens. All right, let's, I'm going to start with Carol. Carol. Go for it. So Tobin and Carol, um, you know, he's being all lovey dovey and she's tuning him out. Yeah. She's just like, like, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:50] But I think she doesn't want to leave him. But the fact that she cares about him is exactly why she's decided to leave. Yeah. Cause she doesn't want to, she, she thinks she has to kill in order to protect the people that she cares about. And she doesn't want to kill anymore. Um, but then she ends up having to kill to protect herself too. Cause she's accosted by some ding dongs. Accosted by ding dongs. The Carol story.

[00:10:16] These guys were particularly like, clearly they sent out like the D team. I was like, these guys are crap. They're exactly the way that you've been describing all the saviors this whole season. Yeah. They're just like, Hey lady. I'm like, Oh God. And smirking. I'm like, we were talking at the dinner table about like, if there was anything we were excited about for season seven.

[00:10:40] And I remembered that a Alden exists, which makes me laugh and be my favorite savior. Who's Gavin, the admin savior who gets sent to pick up their stuff and fucking hates his life. But it's like, like, it's just like anything to stop me from actually having to do any savior activities. And I was like, yeah, I think we get, you know, slightly less ding dong you saviors in season seven. But at this point it's just like, Oh, come on guys. Like, I mean, I can't imagine Alden around these ding dongs.

[00:11:10] Cause he's this little hipster sensitive kid. And they're like, Hey, well, let's say we go out and terrorize people. And he's like, um, I'm reading a book right now. I just actually think that's not good for EDI plan if I'm honest. Like, they're like, I don't think you're one of us. Yeah. And he's like, here, I made you a macchiato. We'll keep you around. That's okay. All right. He was actually Negan's barista. He was working at the Starbucks in the saviors. Yeah.

[00:11:40] He's like, say what you like about Alden, but he makes a great flat white, you know? I'm sure he does. I have no doubt. Um, so I forgot about the gun in the sleeve here because I just remember the one that she has later that spring loaded. Oh, shit. But this time it's not. She, uh, she improves it later on. But, um, I, I like that even though her whole thing is she's leaving cause she doesn't want to have to kill anymore. She's still prepared to do it. Cause that's very Carol. And I, and I think it's smart too.

[00:12:10] If she wants to live, she's better be prepared just in case. Yeah. She knows she's capable of it. Yeah. She just doesn't want to. And then I like too, that she starts crying and getting upset and they think it's because she's freaking out, but really it's because she's like, I don't want to have to fuck your shit up, but I'm going to have to do it. Yeah. It's such a good performance by Melissa McBride, man. She's so good in this. Yeah.

[00:12:37] Carol is such a huge part of the show now they fully realized. Oh, okay. Okay. This is one of our prize possessions and we're really going to, um, capitalize on that, which is great. And I wonder if you think it's more because of Melissa McBride's performance or just because the character happened to catch on because of her story. I think both, but I think Melissa McBride's performance is a huge part of it. Absolutely. For example, Laurie Holden.

[00:13:04] Well, I mean, look at what happened with Andrea, like Laurie Holden's performance wasn't liked. That's right. The character didn't work. Whereas Melissa McBride, I think brought something so special to what was quite a two dimensional role at the start, you know? And I think that the two kind of grew from there. I think you're totally right. I think if Melissa McBride would have played Andrea, we would be looking at that character completely differently. Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah. I never thought about that before. Um, so these saviors were on their way to Alexandria.

[00:13:32] And so I guess running into Carol sort of saved Alexandria from having to deal with the saviors, at least for a little bit. Yeah. I'd forgotten they thwart quite a few little incursions before the lineup. Like the lineup really is an escalation because they keep killing the people there. That's right. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not saying the lineups understandable, but I'm saying like, yeah, there was quite a few things that happened that actually got stopped or blocked or people died on the way.

[00:14:00] Um, it wasn't just straight from there to line up, which surprised me rewatching it. Yeah. No, I mean, I, it's funny. I think cause I'm like critical of Negan. Of course, everyone who listens to this knows that. And I'm critical of Rick. I'm like, they're both, they're both, they're fucking up terrible right now. Rick, you know, I, I don't like the killing the people in their sleep. I don't think it was, uh, morally right or smart. Um, but I also don't like Negan going around terrorizing people and, and anybody who says,

[00:14:30] Oh yeah, Rick asked for it by killing them. I'm like, no, he was responding to someone who was being a giant ding dong. Yeah. You know, it's the season of the ding dongs. Yeah, it is. That was the catchphrase for this one back in the day. I remember. Um, and then last on Carol, I just, I wonder what she was thinking. Like her plan was going to be like, she's going to be a hermit from now on. I don't know.

[00:15:00] I don't know. I think she was just going to take it. She does this a few times in the show, sort of takes herself away from things. And I think that's her way of kind of trying to protect herself and others. Yeah. She's self-aware enough to know. Yeah. Um, yeah. Like I, I remember her like moving on to the outskirts of the kingdom in that little house. Yeah. Ezekiel comes to visit her. Yeah. And then she goes out to sea. That's right. Uh, mid whisperer war or kind of, I don't remember where it was. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah.

[00:15:30] She gets Michonne's maritime arc. That's right. Cause it was Michonne in the comics. Yeah. Mm hmm. So my next one is foreboding sense of upcoming loss. Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's a lot of that. I wondered why they opened in medias res with some shit having gone down, but it's really obscured. So you can't tell, you just see like blood dripping.

[00:15:53] And I, I actually thought it was kind of artful, but, um, I think the idea was to open with, you know what they're headed for something bad so that we would be contrasting that with the first like half of the episode or maybe a little less than half where they were showing a lot of couples in loving situations. So you could see like, this is what's about to be disrupted. This, this is what's at stake. Something like that.

[00:16:20] I think as well, I kind of forgot that both Carol and Daryl are in peril in this episode. We like at one point we think Carol's probably dead because we see the rosary beads. And then at the end when Dwight shoots Daryl, like we didn't know at that point. I mean, we suspected, I suppose that Norman Reedus wouldn't get killed off, but it wasn't as dead, sir, as it would be now. I mean, you see Dwight shoot and blood flies out and it looks like fatal. And then you hear Dwight say he'll be fine.

[00:16:49] And I'm thinking, yeah, the writers added that in so that there would be no riots. No dumpster accusations. Yeah. Um, so we see a lot of pairs of lovers, um, Tobin and Carol, Rick and Michonne in bed, sharing a moment, Glenn and Maggie in the shower. The Glenn and Maggie scene is the last really loving intimate moment that they get to share together. I don't know if I had thought about it that way before, but now just thinking about what's

[00:17:17] coming, it's clear the writers just wanted to give them that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's quite, um, it's not explicit, but it's quite steamy for a walking dead scene. It is. It is. It isn't insofar as what they're doing isn't actually that sexual, but in terms of like what they've seen on screen, it's quite for the walking dead. It's quite, um, yeah. In the deleted scene, he just starts humping her, but they took that out. It got real gross real quick. No, it was really sweet and lovely.

[00:17:45] And I don't know if I noticed this before, but we have Johnny Cash singing. It's all over. It's all over. Over it. Uh, every minute that you cry for her is wasted. Don't you know, it's all over my heart echoes. It's all over. Stop your crying, turn around and let her go. I'm just, it's so interesting to me cause the song is gentle sounding and it fits with the mood of the scene, the, the tone of the song, but the words are like, this is it. Yeah. It's done, man. So interesting.

[00:18:13] And then, uh, Rick and Michonne in bed, she offers him a bite of the apple and then says, Jesus came through. It's like very biblical. And I think that's on purpose, but not that, um, like Michonne is Eve or anything, but just the feeling of this is paradise right now and it's about to get disrupted. Absolutely. Something like that. Yeah. I didn't thought of it that way, but yeah. And he then says, when they come for us, we'll end it.

[00:18:42] The whole thing, the world's ours and we know how to take it. Oh, fuck off, Rick. You got so cocky. You really fucked up there, dude. You got so cocky, man. Take your apple and shove it, man. This is not good. Yeah. I mean, I guess as a, as, as a partner, maybe you'd want to hear that kind of a thing. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. Ask her again in 24 hours. Right. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC.

[00:19:12] And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last. Ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now.

[00:19:40] How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla. Smooth caramel, maybe. Or white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra.

[00:20:06] Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier. So you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. Okay, number three. This is a long one. Letting feelings of murderous aggression take over.

[00:20:30] So I just think in this episode, Daryl, in particular, Daryl, Rick, and Rosita are feeling so angry at what the saviors have done. And they just want revenge. And they are letting that emotion rule them over anything else. And I would argue that's not always the best play when it's life or death. No. Because they're just triggered out of control. It's like they have an itch and they've got to scratch it.

[00:20:58] And Glenn keeps saying things like, Daryl, we need to get back to Alexandria and figure this out from home. Yeah. You know, he's trying to preach caution and being smart about it. You know, I don't think Glenn's saying, we don't need to act. I think he's saying, we need to be smart about how we act. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I know Rick cares about keeping his people safe, but I don't think he's doing what it takes to do that. No. And now Glenn's gonna die because of that. Yup.

[00:21:27] So just going through, instead of separating out the two groups, I think it works better to just go in order. So first we see Daryl nervously fiddling with his Dennis key chain. Yeah. Oh, Dennis. Yeah. And so that gives a clue where he's going and he goes off. I'm going out. Half cocked. And Rosita knows where he's going to the place where Dwight killed Denise to track Dwight. So Glenn Michonne and Rosita go after him.

[00:21:57] And Glenn, even then is saying, we should keep numbers here. So he's trying to be sensible. And then I noticed as Glenn, as they drive away, we see Maggie in the rear view mirror of the car. It's all over. With her lovely long hair. Yeah. That's all over too. I did have a laugh when I was watching the next episode, when Glenn sees Maggie in the lineup and he's like, Maggie. And I was really like, I'd love it if he was like, you cut your hair. It looks good. All the saviors are like, shut up. And he's like, no, she cut her hair.

[00:22:27] It looks good. It looks good. She had it long before. Yeah, that was short. See? And he's like, what the fuck? So Tobin shows Rick Carol's goodbye note and Rick and Morgan go after her. And, you know, I think normally if Tobin showed Rick that note, I could understand.

[00:22:52] Yeah, let's go try to head her off and tell her, no, you should come back here immediately before she gets too far away. But I think since Glenn, Michonne, Rosita and Daryl, like four of their best fighters are also gone that maybe they should have let go. And there's this problem with the saviors. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I was a bit like, she can go if she wants. Like, let her go. It's fine. Like, it's not, you know, she'll come back when she's ready. Like, yeah.

[00:23:18] I think it did feel a little bit like plot driven to get everybody out and vulnerable. But it was great, as you said, to see Morgan and Rick have some like detective scenes together. Mm hmm. Just the two of them that are so changed from the first time that we meet them both. Yeah. That's one of the things that's great about it because they are so bonded still, even now. But they've gone to the extreme ends of all life is precious. I will kill anyone who looks at me wrong. Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:46] And it's funny because I think Morgan gets under people's skin. You know, I think a lot of the reason Carol leaves is because he's gotten under her skin. And I do think he has that capacity to do that with Rick as well. Um, and it's interesting to see that play on Rick, who's in this very confident moment, but also be shaken up a bit by Morgan, whose energy is very different. Yeah, you're right. Cause when Morgan says, go back home, I will look for Carol and Rick agrees to that. So he had an impact on him right there. Absolutely.

[00:24:15] But for that, uh, they're in the car and Morgan mentions the savory compound was west, but Carol went east. Mike drop east. And so I think the point is he's saying Carol's choosing nonviolence. Yeah. She's going away from the trouble, not right into it. Um, then they, uh, Rick says, I'm proud of her. They get to the scene where she killed everyone in the road. That could be many different episodes, but all these men are weeping and dead.

[00:24:45] It's like, Oh God, you see my friend. Cool. It was kind of funny. Rick goes up to one guy. Have you seen her? And he goes, Oh, and then he just kills them. Well, maybe he was about to answer. I don't know. That was my, that was my ongoing beef with the, um, Michael Fassbender as Magneto arc in the X-Men films was like, there's this whole thing where he goes to Argentina to find ex-Nazis or something. And he keeps killing people before they answer his questions. I'm like, you can't just do that. Like you have to give them a chance. You can't just be like, do you know where they are? And they go, no. And then just kill them.

[00:25:15] Like, anyway. Because under his breath, he's saying, please say no, please say no. Please say no and I'll tell you them. It's awesome. Like, uh, so anyway, Rick says, I'm proud of her. She took four of them down. That woman, she's a force of nature. And Morgan says she left because she can't anymore. That's what her letter said. And Rick said she could because she had to. Sometimes you have to. And I'm like, yeah, he's right about that. I totally agree with him there. Um, and Morgan kills someone in the next episode to save Carol. Right.

[00:25:44] You're intimately familiar with that. He does. You're all ready to talk about it. Yeah, I know. I'm like, yes, he does it at this time moment. Like, yep. Yep. Uh, so, uh, I agree with Rick, you know, sometimes you do need to kill. Not always, but sometimes then, um, Rick sort of has a realization. Oh shit. There's more saviors than we thought he goes, they were close to Alexandria. There's even more of them. We didn't end it. And Morgan goes, no, we started something. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, there's kind of truth in that.

[00:26:11] Like, I wouldn't agree that they should have just ignored the problem and left Hilltop to fight for itself and whatever. But I do think Rick was cocky thinking he'd handle it. And now he's like stirred up this hornet's nest and put Alexandria on the savior's radar without meaning to. And now they're in a worse position than he was before the attack on the outpost. I think the enemy's now aware of him and he doesn't know much more about them. So it didn't do him any good. It only made things worse.

[00:26:37] I mean, there's a scenario where Negan just little pig, little pigs at the door of Alexandria with them never having met him before. And they still managed to fight him in the way that they do at the end of this. But I suppose in order to do that, you have to meet the kingdom and Oceanside and that. So it doesn't really quite play out. Yeah. Yeah. I get your point. I mean, like I would, I was sort of laying out what I think they should have done instead, which is like information gathering defense.

[00:27:03] And part of that was asking Jesus, who are the other communities we can ally with? So it would have taken some time and who knows, you know, you never know. They might've had just as many losses, if not more, if they'd done it that way. But it just seems smarter to me than just rushing right in without knowing what you're dealing with. Yeah. So next scene, Glenn and Michonne and Rosita get to the spot where Dwight killed Jesse. I mean, Denise, not Jesse, on the train tracks.

[00:27:32] They see Daryl's bike hidden under the bushes there. And Glenn wanted to stop Daryl. He wanted to find Daryl and stop him. And Rosita goes, we should let him do this. And Glenn's like, but he doesn't know what he's doing. We don't. Maybe him trying this makes you feel better about it right now. Maybe they keep knowing more about us than we know about them. Or maybe Daryl's going to get himself killed. Like that's Glenn and me are exactly on the same page right now.

[00:27:58] Like if he's saying you're doing this to feel better, but what's more important than you feeling better is doing what's smarter to keep us all safe. He's not wrong. Yeah, that's what I think. And then he said something else about, oh, he's, he said to Daryl, you're not doing this for Denise. She's gone. You're doing this for yourself. So he's just keeps pointing out that, you know, you need to like, take a few deep breaths. Yeah.

[00:28:27] Take a beat before you do something fucking stupid. Yeah. So then Glenn says to Michonne, these thing is those men can be back in Alexandria right now. Michonne says, if they are, they're dead. And Glenn immediately, I hope not. We need them alive. We need to find out more. He's just like, yeah. Right on it. Absolutely on it. He saw those X-Men films. Well, he didn't because it happened after, but whatever, if he had seen them, he'd have known. He read the comics. He read the comics.

[00:28:53] Um, so then the saviors surround Glenn and Maggie and I think Dwight had his middle finger on the trigger. Glenn Michonne. And yeah, he did have his middle finger on the trigger. Yeah. That's whatever. I wanted to slap him. Why would you do that? Because Dwight's a ding dong man. Like, I just don't know what else you want me to say. No one does that. It's not cool. It's not cool. He's such a cop race, Daryl. God. He could never.

[00:29:17] So then, um, then we got to the part where they get, they see the, um, zombie that they think is Carol for a minute. And, and I'm like, this is the one where Rick shoots the guy who ended up being from the kingdom. I was kind of happy to see the scene oddly because I was totally, I wasn't totally sure whether I'd made it up in my head.

[00:29:39] I, I, I never hear anyone else talk about it, but I, I keep saying over the course of the podcast, you know, whenever I lay out why I think Rick's gotten darker. Like one time he just saw a random person and tried to kill him. And that's exactly what this is. That's exactly what happens here. It's interesting. I think I'd forgotten that they kind of intertwine the introduction of the kingdom with the lead up to the lineup. And it is such a hopeful thing, the introduction of the kingdom.

[00:30:06] And yeah, it's interesting to me that it's kind of introduced as a bit of a mystery in this episode and we don't really get any further until the next one. Um, but it's, it's, it reminds me that there's light after some of the dark bits. Yeah, that's right. I, I mean, one thing that I hadn't noticed, I don't think when we podcasted on this before is they get to this farm and, and when they, they think that one Zed is Carol, but it's not.

[00:30:33] But, uh, Morgan says something like she's only been dead a day or less or something. And then they see all these other dead bodies freshly killed. Right. And then they see this guy. So I think Rick thought, uh, he, he probably killed these people. But as Morgan says, you don't know. And number two, Rick tried to shoot him in the fucking back as he was running away. Yeah.

[00:31:01] And in the next episode, which again, I prepped, um, the, uh, they use a guy as an example and they talk about his library community all being dead. I wonder if those are from that community. Oh, uh, uh, library. I don't know what is that? Yeah. I dunno. It just, um, there's a guy and they use him as part of the amazingly executed show that they put on for Rick and the gang. And, uh, it's as though he's just come from somewhere that the saviors have ransacked.

[00:31:29] So I do wonder if those are meant to be the same people you'd think they'd signpost it a bit clearer. But when he said they've only been dead a day, I'm like, Hmm. I don't know, but I'm just like, uh, if Morgan hadn't shoved Rick's arm, he would have shot an innocent man in the back without knowing whether who, who he really was. And the guys just say, I'm just looking for my horse. I don't want any trouble. Rick fucking kills him. I mean, I'm takes the horse. I don't do the horse. Weird if it was there.

[00:31:57] I feel like if you ever find yourself shooting at random strangers, just in case they might be dangerous, then you're the bad guy. And you probably should take a hard look in the mirror and maybe just pull it back a little bit. I don't think that's a controversial, that should be a controversial statement. Um, I think he, in this moment, I see him totally Walter White. Like he, he's about to get humbled, but, um, also he kills Morgan. Morgan that, Oh yeah.

[00:32:24] If I was Carol back then, I don't know if Carol told me back then I'd have killed Karen and David myself. Cause they were sick and spreading disease. And I'm like, Herschel got sick. Yeah. Glenn got sick. Sasha got sick. Are you going to kill all them too? This is the biggest red flag that he's over the edge is he saying, yeah, yeah, that was fine. That was fine. I'm like, it wasn't fucking fine. You exiled her. Like, yeah. And that's, this is like, he's a different person.

[00:32:51] This is like shows that he changes and, and he gets dark. And when one of the main themes of the walking dead is, can you come back from the dark things that you did? And this is Rick getting, doing the dark things. Mm-hmm . And then we see him come back from it. But also part of that is giving other pants to do that. And Rick will never give anyone at this version of Rick would never give anyone the chance to redeem themselves. Just kill them. No.

[00:33:21] Yeah. So, um, anyway, Morgan tells Rick that he kept that wolf alive in Alexandria. I'm like, you're going to get yourself killed, buddy. Ah, Rick could never kill Morgan. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But I know what you mean. You're like, but I think Morgan's pushing him at that point. He's like, okay, so you're going to kill everyone? You're going to kill me? Like, I think there's a bit of him that's pushing it there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was trying to make a point like, oh yeah, see, I, I, I saw this guy could change.

[00:33:47] And then he saved Denise's life when he was dragging her out in the middle of the zombies with a knife to her throat. I don't think that really works. When he endangered it. Yeah. But, uh, anyway, then, um, cause I, I, you know, like I said at the beginning, like I'm critical of Negan, I'm critical of Rick. I'm also critical of Morgan. He's. Yeah. Gone a little bit too far over in his, anytime it's all or nothing, then you gotta think, oh, I don't think you're really thinking things through here. No. So then Morgan tells Rick, you should go home. They need you there.

[00:34:16] I'll find Carol and Rick agrees, which I admired. And then Rick makes him take that gun. And then Rick, I love this part. He goes, Morgan Michonne did steal that protein bar. Oh, I know. It was nice to see Morgan smile. But I think the main reason that exchange was in there is the writers wanted to make us think that Morgan was going to die because it felt like the last moment, you know? It really did. It's, there's a few of those peppered in this episode and the next one where I'm like, Oh no.

[00:34:46] Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I thought since this is some might think a pretty lopsided conversation that we'll play Renee's call here as a counterpoint to give that side of it. Okay. Go for it. So here is Renee's call for this week. Amazing. Hiya, Jason. Hiya, Lucy. And let's get into this episode.

[00:35:12] Seeing Maggie's scars and Glenn looking at her with so much love absolutely broke my heart. If something had happened to Maggie and she didn't come back when they went to their savior's outpost, Glenn would have turned into a whole different person. He would have become just as gangster as Rick and had Glenn live and raise his son. He would have been a daddy bear. Y'all say mama bear. He would have been a daddy bear, which is what Rick is. People always talk about mama bears, but Rick is a daddy bear.

[00:35:42] That man loves his children. Everything he does is filtered through protecting call and Judith. That's why I understand where he's coming from. The saviors are not just misguided people. Those are people who sleep with photographs of decapitated victims hanging over their head. I have a hard time finding sympathy for that. And Jason, when you talked about what you would have done if Negan had come for your wife,

[00:36:08] you said you would rather jump off a building than to allow that to happen. And Lucy was like, no, none of us really know what we would do in a situation. You know, in any situation, I agree to a point, but I'm like you. Yeah. Certain things, you know, that, you know, you're not going to play with. And if someone threatens my child, all bets are off. My son is grown wrong, but baby, do not play with my child. That's all I'm going to say. And as far as Rick losing his humanity, I don't see it.

[00:36:37] Morgan said if he had killed the wolf, Denise would have would not would have died because the wolf later helped save her. But I don't see it that way because if Morgan had killed the wolf, the wolf wouldn't have been there in the first place. That's one of those what if scenarios that none of us can ever prove, which brings me to Darryl. When Randy called in and called in and mentioned all the situations where Darryl's actions led to bad outcomes.

[00:37:05] Jason, you basically said that's not really fair because cause and effect can get complicated. Well, I feel the same way about Rick. Darryl went after Dwight, which led Rosita, Glenn and Michonne to follow him. And they all ended up getting captured. But don't nobody hang that up entirely on Darryl. I do. So why does Rick get held responsible for everything that happens afterwards? I think this show is absolutely about humanity and how for people, how far people can go before losing it.

[00:37:34] I just don't think that Rick crossed that line. People can be more than one thing. I am a sweet Southern church lady. I love people. I try to be kind, but baby, I will flip tables. Do you hear me? I will flip them and both sides are me. And I think Rick is the same way. The Rick who cleared the outpost and the Rick who later spelled Negan are still Rick. People grow, people change, people learn. Those things can co-exist. You can be two sides of the same coin.

[00:38:04] Now, I do think Rick got a little too cocky between him and Michonne finally being together and Glenn and Maggie was settling into Alexandria. Everybody was feeling safe. Rick and Michonne was absolutely basking in that new love glow. Like I said, he got the baddest cheek in the game wearing his chain. And that's how they got caught off guard. And that's Michonne is going to be the one who eventually tells Rick that we need to fight.

[00:38:33] You know, she's going to be the one to get his mind back right. It's just Jason, you and I are just built differently. You are a pacifist. And I genuinely respect that. I really do. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a pacifist too. And because of people like him, this country changed for the better. But me, I'm more like Rick than Morgan Jones. Rick has seen too much and lost too much to keep taking chances. And I understand exactly why he said, I don't take chances anymore.

[00:39:03] And one last thing. You said Eugene could have become, Eugene could have been one of those saviors. I disagree. Negan stole Eugene. He didn't, Eugene didn't voluntarily go with Negan. Negan took him. Now, could Eugene have risen up through the ranks? He definitely could have. But that is not who Eugene is. Eugene had opportunities to choose himself. But instead, he chose to help Rick and the crew. He still had a conscience.

[00:39:31] That's why I don't think Eugene and the saviors are the same. And Eugene would have ended up with the saviors. And Jason, you said some, you know, you said sometimes I act like Rick can do no wrong. No, sir. I have called Rick out several times. And you know, what really pissed me off is Rick is when he didn't kill Negan. Because had Negan killed Michonne, Judith McCall, Negan would have been dead. And that is facts. Dead as a doorknob. Okay?

[00:40:00] Now, I don't agree with everything Rick does. I just understand why he does it. But you know, hey, I understand we just cut from a different cloth. And Lucy, girl, I cannot wait to hear what you got your thoughts on those pickles. I cannot wait to hear what you got to say. And yes, Jason Kabasi, I am riding with you. Kabasi, I am riding with you until the wheels fall off. All righty, peace and love. Bye. Bye. Thank you. I got a lot to say about that.

[00:40:29] But the first thing is, I think you're making my point about Eugene. He got stolen by the saviors. And he did end up working for them, but he's still out of conscience. And I'm just like, how do you know there aren't other saviors like that? You don't. You just don't. Like Alton. There's pictures in that group, but maybe just Simon put those up or one person, you know, you don't know. How do you know? They're all asleep. You can't tell what kind of people they are.

[00:40:58] They might be all Eugene's except for one of them. Maybe one of them's doing a photography project. Maybe one of them just likes taking photos, man. No, I'm kidding. I mean, we know there were other ones. Yeah. Because Rick took a bunch of men at the end and Laura and Alden are two that ended up working out. So there could have been more like that. There absolutely could have. What else? About being a pacifist. I guess I consider myself a pacifist, but I'm not a Morgan.

[00:41:24] Like I was in fights as a kid and as an adult, occasionally I've surprised myself at how aggressive I can be. There was this packed mall parking lot one time I was driving with my aunt and this guy, I think he thought I cut him off and I don't think I did or something. I don't know, but he got out of his car and came up to my window and he was yelling at me. Right. And I rolled down my window. I'm like, you better get the fuck out of here.

[00:41:52] And he looked scared and he turned around and walked away. And that is beef season three. My aunt was looking at me. Yeah, that's right. Beef really spoke to me. And it was Steven Yen. It was Steven Yen. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've been through some things too. I had, I've talked about stepfathers, you know, like bad. And my mom and I, one of them fucking shot at me and my mom while we were driving away and shattered our car window as we sped away.

[00:42:22] Um, so I, I, you know, I've seen some things, not as much as a lot of people, but some, and I do believe in fighting for the people you care about and I would fight to the death for my kids. But I, I just never wanted to let any of that harden my heart towards the world or turn me into the kind of person who resorts to violence and hate before considering other options.

[00:42:46] I think that's the smart thing, not just like some kumbaya pacifist thing, but it's smart to keep options open and see if people can rise to the occasion. And I also think that when you walk around in the world, you, you sometimes get back what you put into it. So if you treat people like they're your enemy or this is a fighting situation, then you're going to have enemies and fights. And, uh, uh, Morgan said people can come back. And I, I, we've seen people come back on the show.

[00:43:16] Uh, Dwight came back, Alden, uh, Negan even came back. And I just don't think the smart thing is to cut off that option by showing aggression all, all the time. I think Rick himself, as I said before, came back from this, what he's doing right now in this episode. I don't think he's being a caring person right now or a smart person.

[00:43:38] And, uh, and I think most important though, what you, you said Renee about Rick loves Carl and that I've touched on this before, but I just think it's so important that Rick changed his ways from what we're seeing in season six. I'd forgotten how much season six was Rick being so dark, but in part, because that was Carl's dying wish. So I'm going to read part of Carl's letter to Rick, the one he wrote after he got bitten and knew he was going to die.

[00:44:06] He said, I thought growing up was about getting a job, maybe having a family, being an adult, but growing up is about making yourself and the people you love safe, as safe as you can, because things happen. They did before you were shot before it all went bad. I felt like things went bad because you were shot. I wanted to protect you. I wanted to be like you. I wanted to kill them to make it stop.

[00:44:29] I remember that boy in the woods, the one with the gun talking about in season three, when Carl shot that kid, I think about him now, what I did to him, how easy it was. You told me, put away your gun. You went to the prison and tried to be a farmer. You let go of it. So I could, so we could, it worked for a while, but then it came back and you saved us. You kept us alive. I don't think you can just choose to stop. Not when everything's like this, but you have to find a way to let go of it again.

[00:44:57] You have to find a way to lead, to make it stop. You can't just kill all of them. There has to be something after for you, for Judith, for everyone. There has to be a safe place. If they won't end it, meaning the saviors, I think you have to, you have to give them a way out. You have to find peace with Negan, find a way forward somehow. We don't have to forget what happened, but you can make it so it won't happen again. That nobody has to live this way. That every life has worth. Start over.

[00:45:24] Show everyone they can be safe again without killing. That it can be like it was before. You can be a farmer again. You can walk with Judith and hold her hand like you held mine. I see it. I see the new world. I love you, Carl. And then in the season finale, I think, season eight, Rick responded to Carl. Well, we hear his voiceover. This is just after Rick decided to spare Negan's life. We hear Rick saying, dear Carl, I remember. I forgot who I was. You made me remember.

[00:45:54] You showed me the new world. You made it real. I see it. I remember. So Rick straight up said he forgot who he was. Renee, you're saying you didn't cross the line? I think he's saying, I crossed that line. I forgot who I was. He knows he did. And that's all I'm saying. That's what I think. I just, yeah, I, as well, just to come back to the idea of like not knowing until you're in it. I just, I think we can all, we can know things about ourselves, but I think there are some

[00:46:24] really extreme situations where you just don't know until you're in it. I just, I don't. Absolutely. I know what I would like to do. I know what my heart tells me I should do and what my gut tells me I should do, but I just don't know if we always. No, I mean. Always do manage. I mean, I know times in my life where I've been in unjust situations and I've stood up

[00:46:51] even though I thought it was going to cause me trouble. And occasionally it did, you know? And, and so I just can't imagine a time when I would put up with somebody like Negan. I wouldn't want to live in a situation like that. So, so I'm pretty sure, but I, I, I don't, what, what you just said, how it really struck

[00:47:17] me is I'm not saying I would do the right thing in Rick's shoes or in any of these situations. I probably would go off half, half cocked sometimes. And like, that's kind of what I just said. And it would be bad, you know, but I'm just looking at Rick as he's a leader and. He's supposed to be keeping his people safe. And I'm a podcaster, uh, evaluating that. And my judgment is you're failing right now, you know? Like, yeah, I can, it's human.

[00:47:46] I, that's why I love the story. It's that thing I was talking about, like, uh, judging things on a personal level as if these are real people and then looking at it narratively, narratively, it's great. I think this is Rick's arc. He goes into that dark place and comes back from it. But as far as like, would I want to be around Rick right now? Fuck no. No, absolutely not. No, you'd want to be on his team because you wouldn't want to be on the other fucking team. I wouldn't want to be on the other side. Yeah. That's the only reason why. Yeah. I wouldn't respect him. I wouldn't respect what he's doing right now. No, it's messy.

[00:48:16] And if he told me to go into a room, a place and, and kill people, I, I don't know what, what the hell I would do at that point. Kill them in their sleep. Like Glenn had to do. I'm not sure what I would do about that. No. You'd be questioning it for sure. Yeah. I might do it because he's the leader, but I'd probably cry myself to sleep for the rest of my life. Yeah. I don't think I'd be. Yeah. I don't think I'd be in a good way afterwards. Let's put it that way. Yeah.

[00:48:44] I hope I never find myself in that situation. I'd say there's a pretty good chance I won't. Yeah. Hopefully. You're so fingers crossed. Okay. Last little thing is Maggie. So she's back home continuing to help prepare for the possible arrival of the saviors. I think she said we all need to have guns. So she's doing what Rick said, you know, we all should have guns, but also we should hide a few.

[00:49:11] So, so strangers won't be able to find it if they get in or something, which I'm pretty sure Jonathan suggested that when he was, he guested a little while back. Did she listen? Yeah. I think she listened to Jonathan. Which is always a good thing to do. And I also thought it was kind of interesting that the first half of this season was about Rick preparing the Alexandrians for the undead and then they attacked and now it's preparing them for the living, which is a much worse situation in a lot of ways, harder to deal

[00:49:41] with. These are sort of just random points about Maggie, but Enid cut Maggie's hair and I thought it looked good. Maggie hated it so much that she keeled over and faked being sick so that she wouldn't have to talk to Enid ever again. Yeah. So, so what do you think about the haircut? Oh, oh my God. I'm so ill. Fuck. Give me the hilltop. As they got into the lineup, Maggie realized she may have overreacted to that haircut. It was a great haircut. I read, yeah, I thought so.

[00:50:11] And that's more like what Maggie looks like going forward, right? Yes. Yeah. Very much more comic book Maggie. Yeah. Yeah. And, and in the show going forward, I felt like, oh, this is, this is familiar. This is Maggie now. Yeah. So I think at the moment we probably thought she was having a miscarriage. Yeah. I'm still baffled by how sick she is in this episode and the fact that she doesn't lose the baby. Like it's great that she doesn't, don't get me wrong, but yeah, she, it, it looks bad. It looks really bad. Yeah.

[00:50:40] It looks very, very bad, but I read it's a placental abruption, which is where the placenta prematurely detaches from the walls of the uterus, probably from struggling with the saviors in that episode, the same boat, which is maybe when she, why she also had the bruise on her stomach. Yeah, that would make sense. And then, um, dreamy Dr. Carson helps her with it later. Horny Harlan. Horny for Harlan. Horny for Harlan. I think I just like gentlemen in the apocalypse.

[00:51:09] I'm like, oh, the fancy doctor. Oh, the diplomat. Oh. Right. They do stand out. They do stand out. He loves Daryl and you're like, no, no, no, no. I'm like, oh, no, no, no. I don't think so. Um, then, um, notes. Carl has this gun that has a barbed wire and bat carved on it. So it must be a savior gun, but just, there's so much buildup to Negan. And it like, fully looks a bit like a penis. I was like, what? And they're like, oh, it's Lucille. Right. Barbed wire penis? What?

[00:51:39] I guess it's a gang symbol. Yeah. Um, that'd be a good one. No, it wouldn't be good. Daryl. Uh, oh yeah. We already talked about that. So I guess that's, that's about all I have. I think, um, timeline wise is going by my notes for the next episode. This is day 600. And, because this episode and the next episode take place in the space one. So this should be May the 2nd, which is day 617.

[00:52:07] Um, Carl will be bitten 30 days from now. A month away. And the lineup is tomorrow. Um, I don't have any kind of extra notes on this episode, but I did. Because we spoke about this last week and I mentioned that I'd read on Quora. Uh, someone's interesting answer about, um, thinking that Negan was always going to end up killing Glenn as well. And I thought I would read a little bit of it because I thought it was quite interesting. I thought Jason's going to disagree with all of this, but I thought it's interesting anyway. It's alright.

[00:52:35] So it was, it has, um, someone who's very prolific on Quora called Susan Bertolino. If you're listening, Susan, thanks for this. Um, someone, I think the general question was why did Negan, uh, kill Glenn or did, was Glenn always going to die? Something like that. But this is interesting. So she's written, this will be a show answer. So she's referring to the show, not the comic. She says, Negan is all about payback, but in terms of quality, not quantity. Rick and his group killed a lot of saviors. Negan was not interested in retaliation as a simple revenge and accountability.

[00:53:04] He wanted to make an impact on Rick that messing with the saviors and with Negan in particular would cost him dear. She describes a little bit about how they get into the lineup and things like that. Um, talking about Glenn, she says now to Glenn, I don't think Negan knew who he was going to kill until he looked over at the group, but he knew he wanted the kill to count. His first impulse to hurt Rick was to hurt Rick in particular with the kill. Abraham's lack of fear told him that Abraham was probably the muscle of the group. So he marked Abraham as he figured it would hurt Rick.

[00:53:33] Now I will say, having just rewatched the next episode, I'm really into this theory because if you watch Negan's reactions to sizing everyone up, there is a bit of calculation going on in his head. Whether this is completely right or not, I don't know. But anyway, just to add that in. However, Glenn came into the circle with Michonne, Daryl and Rosita. Since Daryl was injured, he seemed less intimidating. I mean, he doesn't look great in the lineup. He's like, I'm under my blanket. I've been shot. I'm going to try and punch you. And Negan did not pick up on his importance to Rick initially.

[00:54:02] However, Glenn reacted strongly to Maggie. That told Negan that Glenn had an emotional connection with someone in the group. He may even have seen Glenn as weak, meaning not tough like Abraham or sardonically cruel like Simon. Glenn was human and hurting not for himself but for another in that group. That meant he was an emotional centre to the group. Brackets. This is my own personal interpretation. The minute Glenn let his feelings show, Negan filed it away in his mind. Glenn was probably a dead man in that second, but Negan still wanted to kill Rick's right

[00:54:31] hand man and watch for his reaction. If the group did not give the reaction he wanted, Glenn was next. If Rick's group did give the reaction he wanted, Glenn would die later but he was going to die as it meant hurting the group. After Abraham's death, Negan wanted to make the emotional suffering of the group prominent which is why he flicked the bat to get blood into Rick's face, Abraham's blood and taunt Rosita to make her look at the bat. He did not expect Daryl to react. Up until that point, everything was going according to plan including Rosita's crying.

[00:54:59] When Daryl charged him, Negan knew he made a mistake about Abraham as Daryl was also muscle and not afraid of him. Negan felt he had to change that. I insist that he had planned to kill Glenn either in the circle or later. However, Negan hates making mistakes. He was mad, not that Daryl charged him but that he didn't evaluate the group correctly. He was more focused on Carl, Maggie, Abraham, Sasha, Eugene and Rick. He noticed Glenn because of his outbursts but he had already decided to kill Abraham before they got there.

[00:55:26] Then Glenn cried out and he decided he would kill Glenn. But he didn't pay attention to Daryl so he went with his impulse to kill Glenn and really do a number on the group. There's a little bit at the end where she says a lot of people blame Daryl for Glenn's death. I reject that belief. Glenn was perfect for Negan's plan to break Rick. Negan didn't want to kill a female. He found Eugene too weak and pathetic. He figured Rick wouldn't be upset by Eugene's death. The showrunners knew Aaron didn't have enough show presence but Aaron also showed little emotion except fear when Negan did his he-me-me-me-me-mo thing.

[00:55:56] Carl was emotional leverage. He was more valuable alive. Negan killed Glenn sooner than he would have liked but he felt justified in doing it. I personally think that he was going to taunt Rick and then kill Glenn that night but he got emotional and killed him right after Abraham as it felt good and he was planning to do it anyway. It turned out to be a very effective intimidation tactic. That is why Glenn died in the show. By Susan Bertolino from Quora. I just think it's an interesting interpretation. I'm not saying it's gospel.

[00:56:22] There's so much just imagination in that that's you know. Watch the next episode with this in mind. I'll watch it. Yeah with that in mind. Because I think it's interesting. Hearing it I you know I don't remember but I wasn't looking for it so of course but noticing any of that calculation but I think it totally does make sense that the eeny miny

[00:56:48] miny mo wasn't fair and that Negan actually was just looking for the strategically best one to kill right. And and I could even believe that he probably that he may have picked Abraham right away because he was the muscle and maybe he even I don't know.

[00:57:04] Yeah, but I think that the writers put in Daryl punching Negan to create that drama of Negan then immediately retaliating by killing someone else and Daryl having to bear the guilt of that and I just think all of that rationale that you just read is way too complicated and takes away from that drama

[00:57:34] especially the part where she says I don't buy that Daryl's hitting him had anything to do with it. That was the that was the dramatic point of it. You know that Walking Dead is not that subtle but I do think that it could be possible that he also clocked somehow that okay if I'm gonna need to kill someone else to put show these fuckers what to do this seems to be another good choice because they care about him or whatever you know. I think he picked wrong with Abraham and I think he knows it because I think like Abraham wasn't

[00:58:03] scared and it didn't have I mean I always felt bad for Michael Cudlitz dying in that episode because like no one really gave that much of a shit but um yeah I think I don't know I just think it's an interesting thing to have in your mind when you're looking at how that scene plays out in the next episode. All right. Yeah. I realized the one thing I did not prepare wasn't only on The Walking Dead. Can you come up with one? Only on The Walking Dead would a haircut affect you so badly that you would keel over screaming and have to be taken for immediate medical attention. It's so dramatic.

[00:58:32] It's so dramatic. So extra man. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you

[00:59:12] know a browser but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. This episode is brought to you by Redfin.

[00:59:37] You're listening to a podcast which means you're probably multitasking. Maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin. Saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream.

[01:00:03] Introducing Taco Bell's new jalapeno citrus salsa with bright citrus, real red jalapenos, guajillo chiles. Usually you add sauce to the food, but when the sauce is this good, the food is just there to get the sauce to your mouth. That rolled quesadilla? Not a rolled quesadilla anymore. Now it's a sauce shovel. Taco Bell's jalapeno citrus salsa. Get it with any item on the cantina chicken menu while it's here. The participating U.S. Taco Bell locations for a limited time only, while supplies last. Contact store for availability.

[01:00:32] All right, we're back. It's time for Lister Moans Grunts and Grunts. Randy says, so all this time Enid could do salon quality haircuts and Alexandria was still letting Jesse run around with scissors mushroom topping people? I mean, the most prescient point we've had on this podcast, Randy. Fair play. It's very true. And I bet you, I mean, Enid was like, all right, I didn't want to overstep my bounds,

[01:00:59] but now that she's gone, I'm going to show these people what a real haircut looks like. It's like a proper high school film makeover as well. It's like, oh my God, Maggie, your hair. Like, yeah. Right, right. It is. Grippy Davilino says the film Homefront with Jason Statham has a few saviors in it and even Len the Claimer. So Len was one of the claimers. He was played by Marcus Hester, who's in the movie. And the only other savior I could found was Stuart Greer, who plays Savior Roman,

[01:01:27] but maybe there's others. Let me know, Grippy Davilino. Stephen Fletcher says, I've fallen behind on re-watching, so I'm going by my memory of this episode from when I last did a re-watch marathon in 2017 during the hiatus between seven and eight. I still remember the awful feeling I had in my gut re-watching this and noticing that Glenn is wearing the clothes that he'll die in. That scene in episode 701 is so cemented in my head, I even remember that detail. Even that brief moment of Glenn and Maggie in the shower,

[01:01:55] I remember saying half jokingly, this is the last sexy shower they'll have together. Broken heart emoji. Yeah, absolutely. Matt King says, so Daryl is effectively to blame for Glenn, Michonne, Rosita, and himself getting captured after going off on a wild goose chase? Stupid thing to do when you know the saviors are likely to be planning a revenge attack on Alexandria. Similarly, yeah,

[01:02:17] and I do like, I mean, I said it in the podcast, but you can't look at things that people do and then see all the butterfly ramifications and blame them for it. But when they're doing something like this, where he's just- They're doing dumb shit. Dumb things, yeah. Going off into enemy territory, angry when you know that they may be attacking

[01:02:41] your home, then it's different. Then it's like, okay, maybe you should have made a plan with your people or something. I don't know. Yeah. Look, I'll say this for the saviors in the next episode. They plan and execute a perfect roadblock. Perfect. Like someone's done a map. Someone's made sure that there's increasing numbers of saviour at every one. There's pyrotechnics. There's timed shit. The saviors know what they're doing and Rick and the gang could do with learning a bit from them in terms

[01:03:08] of organization. Yeah. That's why I am like people, some people don't really get that Negan betrayed our people to help the Whisperers when he showed them how to make these roadblocks to trap everybody at Hilltop right before the Whisperers firebombed Hilltop. Because he had the skills. He learned from Simon. He knew what he was doing. I'm just saying, you've got to upskill in the apocalypse.

[01:03:38] You won't always use it for good, but you've got to learn how to read a map and coordinate a fucking light show. That's right. Say what you like about Simon. He had a vision. Matt goes on. Similarly, Carol running off, leading to Rick and Morgan spending the episode looking in vain for her when he should have been concentrating on the incoming problems. I wonder if they were planning on Morgan leaving for good at the end of season six with the

[01:04:04] farewell chat with Rick. I think that was misdirection. Carol is always a badass taking out the redneck army with the old machine gun up your sleeve trick. Classic. Classic. Yeah. I love seeing that. One question for the comic book readers. Were they as annoyed about Negan and the Saviors in the comic book version or is it just the TV interpretation that you all moan about? It's not always clear as a non-comic book viewer.

[01:04:29] Matt, I love comic book Negan. I think he's great. Yeah. No, I don't think he's a good person. No. I think he's fantastic as a character and his arc in the comic, if you've not read it, I can't remember, Matt, if you have read it or not. He said no, non-comic book reader. It's a, it's a, oh yeah, he said non-comic book reader. And he, his arc is just much more complete in the books in a way that it isn't in the show. Yeah. Cause I, I, you, if, if you listen to this podcast leading up to it, I was like,

[01:04:59] oh, okay. Negan's coming. Can't wait. Can't wait. And then we got what we got. And Karen's like, what the fuck, man? Why were you excited about this? I don't know. Cause they're good at maps. There are, I mean, Deferty Morgan is charismatic as hell and I, I still think he's fun to watch on screen, but, um, the comic book Negan, yeah, I like, it was just more, um, overtly a storytelling win for me than the show.

[01:05:25] They're willing to let comic book Negan be darker and lighter in a way than, than show Negan in a way that I think you can get away with in a comic, but you can't get away with when you've got an actual actor doing it. He cusses a lot too, which. He cusses a lot. He is more upfront about his, uh, his shortcomings in a way that I think we, we miss in the show, but I will say again, having prepared for next week's episode, sorry,

[01:05:52] Matt's like, I didn't ask for your lecture, I'm like, well, you're getting it. Um, I enjoyed Negan's introduction a lot more than I thought it was going to because they cleave pretty closely to the comic book. And I think Jeffrey Dean Morgan hasn't gone. It's not old yet. It's still quite fresh. And I was quite surprised by that because I remember not enjoying it, but I was like, actually, he plays this really well. Like, cause I remember, I think I, my worry, cause I think Derek and I were doing comic book talk at the time, were we? Maybe that was later.

[01:06:21] Um, his dialogue's ridiculous in the comics. Like it's all fuck, fuckity piss pants, blah, blah. And I'm like, how do you play that? They captured some of that. And they captured some of it. And yeah, I think. Peepee pants city or whatever. Peepee pants city. Like, yeah, I, I would say as a comic book reader and viewer, for me, the comic book Negan and the saviors is much simpler and much more rewarding than the TV interpretation, which I just think suffered from not translating as well as we would have wanted it to.

[01:06:49] I mean, for me, it also has a lot. It's not just this, but a big part of it is Negan was very sorry in the comic and appalled for everything. And he really redeemed himself. And then he like left, you know, they banished him and didn't find some reason to keep him around. And that made sense in the story. So it just was a cleaner story that I, yeah, I liked it better.

[01:07:18] And Maggie gets a happier ending in the books as well. The book, you call them the books. Sorry. You can take the lit degree away, but well, hope nobody has, but, um, I keep calling them books, even though they're the graphic novels, um, or comics rather, but Maggie gets a much nicer arc in the sense that she gets closure to like both of them get that closure. And I think one of the things that rankles with me about dead city is it, it goes back on that. Um, and that, that's friends

[01:07:43] now in season three. All right. And then they'll have a posh little kid and then they'll get shot outside the opera and the kid will grow up to be Batman. If they, if they end up together as lovers, I'm quitting this podcast. I'm quitting life. I'm fucking moving countries to somewhere with no television and gouging my eyes out. Like no, awful. And my ears, any way I could receive any more of

[01:08:06] that crap is gone. All right. Here's golf from Carly. Hey, Jason and Lucy, or should I be calling you both Negan now? In response to the last episode, Jason's comments about killing people in their sleep versus imprisoning them. I think it's a, it's a really interesting question because, you know,

[01:08:29] in the apocalypse, they don't have the luxury of a justice system. And I can really see both sides of the argument of, you know, you have limited supplies. Are you willing to share some of those supplies with a person or many people who want to kill you and harm your, your, you know, innocent

[01:08:52] friends and children or, um, you know, is it worth it to take people off of guard duty on the wall to protect against the zombies, to have them stand in guard, you know, prisoners, you know, there's a real, uh, costs. And is it worth the cost to keep people alive? People who want to hurt you?

[01:09:17] Well, I'll posit when Negan's prisoner, they just have Judith do that. So she's good at it. Well, actually she's not, he escaped a bunch. And I, you know, I don't think that there's a right answer. I just think that, uh, in that community, the leader or, or if the leaders is, it's a group of multiple people, they have to make the decision and then they have to live and take responsibility

[01:09:41] for the consequences of, of that decision. Um, but yeah, that's why apocalyptic fiction is so interesting. Cause you have to confront these questions. Um, and then for this week's episode East, um, first of all, I totally forgot about that, that scene with Carol taking out four saviors on her own. Like, wow. I mean, part of me wants to be like, uh, wow, she's so bad-ass, but also

[01:10:05] she's one of the characters who really feels the full impact of having to take lives. And, uh, you know, that goes to, to the whole debate about the morality of killing people. And then I just had a nitpick with Morgan because he says that the wolf saved Denise and then Denise was there to save Carl.

[01:10:29] Denise would not have needed saving if the wolf wasn't there. Like that, like Denise would have just been in the infirmary ready to save Carl. You know, she wouldn't have needed to like go through the, the zombie herd to get to the infirmary. She would have been there if there wasn't a wolf. So yeah, uh, Morgan got to check your logic there. Um, okay. Bye.

[01:10:55] I mean, he's, he's a cell maker by trade. So yeah, apparently that's what he did. I was like, all right, cool. You didn't spend a lot of time on logic puzzles. Um, I'm not, I'm not saying, I don't think they should put up with the saviors at all. I just don't know if it was a good idea to attack an outpost without knowing more about the situation. Um, uh, you were saying how it was good to see Carol wrestling with the weight of killing these people. And it just made me flash for,

[01:11:26] well, I wish you could have like a magic mirror that shows the future and show it to Carol where she sees Daryl charging into a castle, like killing 40 people. Oh, they're all French though. Spanish or something European. Whose turn is it? Your turn. Uh, it is. Oh, are you enjoying, I meant to say at the top of the podcast, uh, are you guys enjoying having lots of Scottish people in America at the moment for the world cup? Is that fun? We've been following the stuff in Boston.

[01:11:55] Oh, I don't even know what's going on in Boston, but I just pretty much stay in my house all the time. So I don't know. Ah, there's loads of, the Tartan army are in town for the world cup because Scotland were playing Haiti and everyone's sending me pictures of like Scottish people being nice to people in Boston. So that's nice to see. Who's going to win? Um, uh, I think we got one goal against Haiti. So everyone in Scotland is like happier than they've been in about 30 years. That happened. So you can tell I don't watch a lot of sport. I'm

[01:12:23] like, yeah, I didn't even know there was a world cup on. So Jenny's watching a little bit of it. Uh, we tuned it in. Yeah, she's into it. I mean, she's so into it and then it came here and I figured, you know, great. She can go see it in person, but the tickets are like $600 a seat. And so she's like, I'm not going to do that. And I feel bad because she can afford it, but it's just too much. Right. And then you see pictures of these stadiums and they're like less than half full because people,

[01:12:51] I guess, don't want to pay the prices. It seems like they whiffed it. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? If the saviors had organized it, I think it would have been organized better. Great light show at least. Yeah. Great light show. Alden on the barista, Simon getting everyone in place, like 10 out of 10. Right. Um, does soccer have a halftime show? Negan with his baseball bat? It should. I think it would be amazing if that happened. Gavin, the hamstrung savior doing a one

[01:13:16] man Hamlet in the halftime show. Be perfect. Um, our friend, Billy Thompson says, hello, hello. Hope you guys are well. Oh yes. Carol starring as Mad Max scene in this episode. Such a great iconic scene. So tense and brilliantly shot. It really does feel like it's ripped from a Mad Max movie. I love it. I know I should take that. It's a real struggle for Carol to kill from that scene. She's not panicking because she's scared of the men. It's because she knows she's got to kill them. But God, when I see

[01:13:43] clips of the scene online, it just reminds me of how badass Carol is. Um, smiley face, laughing emoji. Uh, the Rick and Morgan chats always kind of annoyed me. It's like listening to a debate. You don't agree with either side, but you can't give any input like podcasting. I think there needs to be, I added that. Um, I think there needs to be a balance and some middle ground found between them, but they are both too far either way in my opinion. Also, I don't think we ever get to see them find any middle ground. Do we Rick is pretty much the same until the savior war is over. And

[01:14:12] by that time Morgan is gone. Maybe that's why I would be so interested in seeing these characters reunite. Overall, I think I found this episode a bit more interesting first time around now knowing that it's all set up for Negan's appearance. It all seemed a little too convenient how the group you guys thought of this one. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye. Bye Billy. Yeah. I forgot. I guess Morgan leaves during season eight, maybe end of end of the war end of yeah. Cause Rick had changed by

[01:14:42] the end of the war, but I don't remember what their final scenes were together. Cause his first appearance in fear, you see a lot of the walking dead cast come and sing by to him. I think he's at the junkyard place. Okay. Oh yeah. I think it's the end of the war. It's appropriate that it's, it's a junkyard. They're like, get used to this. Yeah. Cause it's going to be. We were watching the four seasons on Netflix the other week and Peter just popped up and he was like,

[01:15:09] so glad being on fear of the walking dead didn't ruin Coleman Domingo. And I'm like, Coleman Domingo is blowing up, man. He's a star. Like, and no one ever mentions fear, which is. He's in the Michael movie and, and he stuck it out until the end too. So, um, yeah, I'm, yeah, that's awesome. Aren't you saying, um, the disclosure day? Disclosure day. Yeah. I interviewed him one time, but never again. He seems like a cool guy, like genuinely like cool.

[01:15:37] Yeah. No, he's, um, more like energetic. He's cool, but in a way that's very, um, expressive and just outgoing, you know, stylish to always dress to the nines, even at the cons. Yeah. My favorite gay fashion bloggers, Tom and Lorenzo love him. So yeah, that makes sense. Amber Lovo says this episode is definitely the calm before the storm. It feels like filler, but I know it's setting up the pieces for the big gut punch that's coming. Yeah. That's really

[01:16:06] what it is. I understand Carol's going through a bit of a mental breakdown with all the blood on her hands, but I'd be lying if I said she was right to run off. It definitely annoyed me that we spend half the episode chasing her down. That's just kind of, yeah, it's a pattern with her. I'm glad Rick and Morgan had a bit of a chance to air their grievances, even if they don't see eye to eye still. I appreciate Morgan's desire to find Carol. Me too. That's kind of cool. Too bad.

[01:16:31] She's set on getting away from the group. Why did Daryl have to go after Dwight? I knew it was a bad idea because he's Daryl. He just has to. Yeah. I know. Handcuff the wind. I know why he wanted vengeance. I know why he felt like he had to go make it right, but damn it, Daryl. Those saviors just keep popping up like cockroaches. Seriously. Every minute there's more of them. Our group really underestimated how many there are of them and how well organized they are. That ain't that the truth. I know they're like

[01:17:00] that because of the fear. That's how Negan rolls from my understanding is this. I mean, I think he has a carrot stick approach. Honestly, you'll see. Is this the last time we see Glenn and Maggie together and what's happening with Maggie? I know she was injured in the fight with the saviors, but what was that gut wrenching pain she was experiencing? Bad haircut. It was all diversion. That's pretty much the gist of my thoughts on this episode. I accidentally watched ahead one episode.

[01:17:28] Oh, Amber, you and I both, my friends. Which I try not to do. So that makes it harder for me to separate the two. Well, you did a good job. You didn't have anything from the next episode. I hope everyone is well. I'm glad that we are slowly marching through these episodes and I'm ready to be past the big one. The anticipation is strong. Nice. Yeah, we got two more, as I said, and then we're breaking for, uh, we're going to do evil dead burn, me and Chris and rich,

[01:17:55] and then we'll have a week off and then dead city with Alex and Ben. Yeah. And finally, here's a call from Steve Brown. Steve Brown. Hello, Jason, Lucy, uh, the cast of us. This is Steve and this is going to be for me. What's the cast of us? But I am right now, I'm just watching twice as far as I can get caught up. And I noticed, I think Daryl looks like he's carrying the orange backpack. Well, that was the fastest cold open. I think we ever had on

[01:18:19] The Walking Dead. Uh, we hear Carol's voice. We are a man's voice and a gunshot. And now it looks like we back up a little bit to see Carol preparing to leave because the end of the last episode, we saw Tobin reading her letter and now we see the letter and she's stitching something into a coat. The Walking Dead seems to use a lot of Johnny Cash songs and some, some of them are, you know, unusual like this one. Yeah. All in Glenn and Maggie having a shower together. Ooh, watch out, Rick. You're talking very confidently there. And you know what happens when you get overconfident. Okay.

[01:18:48] Daryl Lee's Glenn, Rosita and Sasha go after him. And now Tobin delivers Carol's letter to Rick. Wow. There's a lot happening real quick here. Michonne, not Sasha. Sorry. And now Morgan's going to go find Carol. Wow. People are leaving like crazy. And Rick's going with Morgan. Ooh. And here's Carol with the spike covered car. Ooh, these guys don't know what's about to happen to them.

[01:19:13] These are these, these are saviors, right? They've stopped Carol. Yeah. Machine gun up the sleeve beats five guys in a truck. Ooh. And she just stuck that guy through the, with the spike. Good job, Carol. People just keep underestimating her and we get the cold open repeated here. Yeah. Enid tells Maggie, put up your feet and eat some pickles. Oh, very prominently. They show us that Morgan is wearing his wedding ring and Rick just said the word East. And he said it again.

[01:19:40] The title of the episode, mic drop. He said East too, but he also said West. So, I don't know. It's still title of the episode is mic drop at the East. Still counts. Carol left one of the other guys still alive in the cab of the truck. Was her car drivable? I thought they'd shot off the tires or something. Okay. So Rick and Morgan just found them and said that the car is there. So did she go out on foot? Oh, and now Rick has realized that it wasn't ended with the outpost. Oh, Daryl, you almost shot Rosita. Ooh. Glenn and Michonne are now caught by the slave.

[01:20:10] The savior's slavers, whatever. And there's Dwight, the very one that Daryl is tracking. And Rick and Morgan encounter someone who's looking for their horse. Rick gives Morgan a gun and then admits to him that Michonne did steal the protein bar. Oh, and Maggie gets a new haircut from Eden. Ooh. But, oh, now and Maggie's doubling over with the short hair. What is going on? Oh,

[01:20:37] and I forgot. So Dwight shot Daryl and blood goes on the camera, but we hear Dwight say, he'll be all right. Uh, on to the last episode of this season. He made me think of the Carol scene. It was, it was almost a little comical how you just hear a machine gun. It sounded or semi-automatic. It sounded like someone came in to save her. I thought maybe it was,

[01:21:06] who did I think it was? Rick, I guess. I don't know. But, um, it turns out it was her and it looked like she just killed them all. And then you find out, oh, one guy's still alive. And then you find out like two more guys are still alive. Yeah. She killed like maybe like 60% of them. And then they had that one dude walking around afterwards. Roman. Okay. So he'll be in next

[01:21:32] week's episode, right? There's some reason why they left him alive. All right. That is our show. Episode 707. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Next we'll have The Walking Dead season six, episode 16, Last Day on Earth with special, special guest Alex, co-host of this podcast

[01:21:56] with Ben for coverage of Dead City. But we'll miss you, Lucy. And, um, oh man, I was going to ask you to call in, but you could just tell us. Do you have any like big... I just, I think I texted you to say, I want Simon to organize my next vacation. He seems really organized. And Peter and I were riffing last night over dinner and we were talking about, um, this idea that Simon was actually the drama teacher at Negan's school. And like, this is his production. So he's like, we're going to need

[01:22:24] techniques. I'm going to need you in this position at this point when I whistle, we're going to have the pyros. He's like, no, no, no, that's wrong. Yeah. You gotta get it right guys. Let's take it from the top. And now we have Negan. And then there's like, Sansa's like, Negan. And it's like, Negan, get the fuck out here. Like, yeah. Well, when they did all their rehearsals, they had some dude as a stand in, you know, um, maybe it was Alden. I don't know. Everyone knows that Primo was the best

[01:22:52] dancer, but he's dead now. So we've got to work with what we've got guys. Yeah. You have to roll with it and adjust. Yeah. Yeah. So that's my whole idea. If I watch it through the lens of Simon's just really good at producing theater, then it becomes a lot less painful to watch. Oh, now I'm very much regretting that we didn't have more time today to expand on that fully, but it's all right. I'll write in. I'll send you my notes. I'll send you my ideas about how to make that episode slightly less horrifying, but yeah. So if you want to write in or leave us a voice message

[01:23:21] about it, you can find all our content information at podcastica.com. Yeah. And you should go on there also and subscribe to dragon cast because house of the dragon season three comes out, I think next weekend coming up here. Right. And the reviewers have gotten advanced copies. They're giving it, it's almost a hundred. It's like 97%. They say it's really kicking in now, you know, all the setup is over and there's only two more seasons they've said for total. So they're really

[01:23:49] going into high gear now. And I'm, I'm kind of excited to watch it. I haven't really, you know, cared about that show as much as the original game of Thrones, but I'm definitely excited for season three. And I know that Wendy Veronica and Archmaester Rennie do a great job on that podcast. It's going to be amazing. Um, if you get a chance, the actors on actors with Kit Harington and Peter Dinklage is quite good. I bet. Yeah. There's a bit where Kit Harington is just like,

[01:24:13] so basically I didn't know how to act. I was like, um, and Peter Dinklage is like, well, he is, he is kind of a wooden guy. So yeah, I need to watch the whole thing, but it looks fun. That's great. That's great. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit Dylan from Ontario. From artificial intelligence to the gig economy to global volatility, the economy is changing at

[01:24:42] a dizzying pace. Enter the Managing the Future of Work podcast, the chart topping and critically acclaimed podcast from Harvard Business School hosted by me, Bill Kerr. And by Managing the Future of Work project co-chair, Joe Fuller, this show explores technology trends, demographic changes, the rise of the care economy, and many other forces transforming the landscape of work.

[01:25:07] We'll highlight the insights of business leaders, technologists, and experts like Business Roundtable's Kristen Silberg on corporate workforce strategy, and Khan Academy founder, Sal Khan on AI education, and the future of work. With more than two and a half million downloads and close to 300 episodes, there is something for everyone. Follow HBS Managing the Future of Work on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.

[01:25:40] Have you ever wondered why Reese Witherspoon founded Hello Sunshine, or where Kevin O'Leary got his start? Or even how Alex Earle became the most accessible founder to someone who may not even consider this space? Enter The Founder Mindset, the new podcast from Harvard Business School Foundry hosted by me, Reza Sachu. As a leading educator in entrepreneurship, I've built multiple high-profile companies and mentored thousands of students and founders

[01:26:07] through the realities of starting and scaling ventures. And with The Founder Mindset, I'm sharing those lessons with you by sitting down with world-class entrepreneurs, including Witherspoon, O'Leary, Anne Earle, plus Tim Ferriss, and many more to break down exactly how they commit, decide, and build for impact. These aren't surface-level interviews. Each episode, I challenge my guests to revisit their toughest moments, their boldest decisions, and the mindset that carried them through.

[01:26:36] Follow The Founder Mindset wherever you get your podcasts.