709: TWD S7E1 "The Day Will Come When You Won't Be" Rewatch

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[00:01:12] You answer to me. You provide for me. You provide for me. You belong to me. Right?

[00:01:40] Right. Right. That is the look I wanted to see.

[00:02:22] Hey, Zed Heads. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Ben. Ben's here, and this is The Walking Dead 'Cast Episode 709. In this episode, we're covering your favorite episode and mine, The Walking Dead Season 7, Episode 1, The Day Will Come When You Won't Be. The day will come when you won't be wanting to watch The Walking Dead. The day will come when you will no longer be watching this show. No, we're having Ben on because we need some counterpoint. Right, Ben?

[00:02:52] Well, I mean, it was a good when you approached me with this months ago, by the way. I was completely on board because, as many people hopefully know, Alex and I have been covering Dead City, which is very Negan-centric. So, why not go back to the beginning? Yeah. Why not go back to the beginning when Negan first came on board and, you know, we got introduced to him.

[00:03:15] And I am somebody who, there are a lot of people who have different, very differing points of opinion when it comes to this episode. And I know, I'm like, I'm just going to get it out of the way right now. So, this is one of my favorite episodes of the series. Good. Right on. Yeah. I mean, I was telling Ben earlier, I try not to read all the feedback because I like it to be a surprise as we're going through it. But I was sort of skimming through and I could see we have some varied opinion.

[00:03:45] I think this is a polarizing episode. It's a polarizing character. And so, there's a lot of, I mean, I'm gray area on a lot of things, but there's a lot of super positive, super negative. So, I think that's normal. That's par for the course with this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, would you like to read the plot summary for it? Sure. So, season seven, episode one, The Day Will Come When You Won't Be. Negan's victim is revealed to be Abraham, who is beaten to death in front of Rick's group.

[00:04:15] Daryl punches Negan out of anger, prompting Negan to also murder Glenn. After several tests, Negan ultimately breaks Rick's resolve by nearly forcing him to hack off Carl's arm. Negan and his crew then leave with Daryl as hostage, while Sasha volunteers to take Maggie to Hilltop to recover, along with the bodies of Glenn and Abraham. Is it accurate to say they left with Daryl as hostage? I feel like it's more like, he's ours now.

[00:04:44] I don't know if that counts. I guess that still counts. No, he makes a threat. He says if you do stuff on cut bits of Daryl or make you do it. Or make you do it. Yeah, it's very kind of, I don't know. Yeah. It's a good idea. I feel like it's a little bit of both. Like, I feel like in Rick's, he wants Rick to feel like, yes, this is a hostage. I have somebody who I can harm. Yeah. Leverage. Don't, yeah.

[00:05:08] If things don't go my way, but also at the same time, I have somebody now that I'm going to try to convert. Absolutely. And be part of us. I think Daryl showing some spunk there made him be like, ah, this is, he's going to be a good savior. I'm going to break him and make him one of my guys. Yeah. Well, he even says like afterwards, he's like, you don't, like, you don't end that. You, you save that. Yeah. You, you try it or something like that. Yeah. At first I thought that was sexual. I was like, what are you saying? But no, I think it's, he wants to convert. And then he said, hot diggity dog.

[00:05:38] I want to go on ride with Norman Reedus. And then like drool off. I was like, yep. So, uh, let's start with Lucy. What, how was it for you to watch this one again? How, what did you come into it thinking about this episode and did it change at all when you watched it again? Oh, just like a huge amount of anxiety. Like I was feeling not good about watching this episode. So I watched it super quick. Um, but it's weird. I think one of the weirdest things and something that maybe people will come back to more in

[00:06:03] season seven is, um, this felt like time travel and this was 10 years ago, this episode. Yes. 2016. And I was sort of, as I watched it, I hated it less than I remembered. I think because I knew what was coming and we've, it's like the boogeyman. You speak about it so much. There's only so much harm it can do when you, when you kind of encounter it again. Um, and watching it beginning to end without adverts helped as well. I thought it flowed better. One of the things that annoyed me the most about it the first time I watched it was I

[00:06:33] felt they really dragged it out. I was like this, this is. It is weird too, to see like violent oppression. And then all of a sudden it's like a hamburger commercial or something. Yeah. It's really bad. But I was reading, I think Gimple asked them, can we not have adverts or something? And they were like, no, you have to have adverts. No, dude. What the fuck's the point? But, um, yeah, it was interesting to do that kind of time travel. I think I'm thinking a couple of things. One is that the episode wasn't as bad rewatching it as I thought.

[00:07:03] The other is, well, one of the two others is, although this was still, I think, a peak of sort of torture porn TV, I think we may have seen worse and up the ante since in a way that makes this. I'm thinking of some of the things we've seen on Yellowjackets. I'm like, oh, I don't know that that was, there's things in that that have made my skin crawl more than, I can't even remember. Oh, just like, what, chasing the girl into the pit? Like that? No, I don't want to get into specifics for spoilers, but some of the shit that goes down in the

[00:07:31] most recent season, I'm like, that is pretty torturous as well. So I think there's other things that have happened on TV shows that have hit me hard as well. So I'm maybe mellowing on this a little bit. And the other thing I think, I spoke to a friend, I shared the message with Jason, it's someone who doesn't listen to the podcast, someone I know through, they might be listening and they were saying they and their husband were re-watching because they'd kind of fallen off at this point. And they said, actually re-watching season seven, it was more fun than I remembered.

[00:08:01] And I do wonder sometimes if the context of season seven and everything that was going on in the world in 2016 and 2017 made it harder to watch and harder to sit through. Yeah, it's so much better now. Good point. I mean, oh yeah, everything's wonderful now. I mean, 2020 happened, everything's great. But I do think there was the sense of like, there was a big seismic shift on and off screen. That we hadn't become inured to yet. And yeah, watching this again, I was like, oh, maybe I'm dead inside. I don't know. I feel like I'm not as upset as I should be. I'm not inured.

[00:08:31] I'm upset. But yeah, I hear what you're saying. I was, you know, coming up to this episode, I've been saying like, yeah, some people are telling me I won't re-watch this one. Daphne said, I watched it once. I won't watch it again. I've heard from other people. And I've been saying, you know what? It's been 10 years. I'm looking forward to it. I remember thinking that as much as I could be objective about this, that I thought it was a good episode.

[00:08:59] And I'm excited to watch it again. And then watching again now, first time in 10 years, I get why people don't re-watch it. So we have opposite experiences. I was like, yeah. Last week, I was sort of like, ah, you know, Negan, he's a good villain. He's got the funny lines. And I was entertained by him with the lineup, you know, and everything.

[00:09:24] And I said, but one of my criticisms about Negan is I think they thought, you know what? People love his patter. Let's just give them two years of it. And it was too much. Like a little Negan goes a long way. And now I'm like, wow, the very next episode, I'm like, okay, I've had about enough. I'm done here. I'm leaving the table. I'm like, no, we're fine. I do think it's a very good episode. It's powerful. I do think you would encounter people like this in the zombie apocalypse. I absolutely, yeah.

[00:09:51] I think it's a great storyline for that reason and very well done. It really makes it believable that a guy could break people and we get a real felt experience of that for better or for worse. But for a lot of people, it was for worse. Like it was just too much. And they jumped ship. And it was too disturbing to see our characters be violated like this for the whole episode. Like a home invasion disturbing kind of a feeling. And so, you know, I think that's why it's polarizing.

[00:10:20] And watching it now for myself personally, I think it's good. I think it's a good episode and it's a good storyline. I just wish that they'd taken care of it in one season, you know. And then there's a lot of things that we'll talk about later about how they've dealt with Negan in the future that didn't, was frustrating for me. But as far as this episode goes, personally, I think it's a good one. But I don't blame anyone who's just like, yeah, I'd rather we wouldn't have had this. Yeah. And I'm kind of in the same boat, like even re-watching it last night.

[00:10:48] Well, first off, like I watched it on Netflix and I realized like it, I had to think about the fact that the episode was from 10 years ago because as I'm watching on Netflix, I'm like, I know this is H. I know this is HD, but this looks grainy as hell. Like this is horrible, horrible quality video compared to what we have now. And it's only 10 years ago. But I feel like that was also probably intentionally done at the time that they were filming. But to your point of I understand why people hated this episode is and I'll dive into this

[00:11:16] a little bit further before to or a little bit later as we go on. I also feel like it's one of these things that like the directors and the producers, they want the creators of the show wanted us to be broken as an audience at the same way that Rick was. And there's so many people that felt that so hard that they just couldn't continue. Like, fuck you. I don't want to feel like that. Yeah. And I think one of the ways that they did that by filming it out of chronological order,

[00:11:46] which I thought worked really well is, you know, they show the whole, a lot of the RV stuff and you think that this is just the aftermath of one person that's been killed and then you get two and it's just like worse than we even thought. So it's making like you're saying, you know, it's making us feel like we're the ones being fucked with and hurt. Well, and I think another reason why other people were so turned off by this episode,

[00:12:14] it was also the fact that one. And so before I rewatched this episode, cause I haven't been rewatching the series, but before I went back and I watched this episode, I went back and I watched the last 20 minutes of the season six finale because I remembered Negan appears in the season six finale. It's not the premiere of seven that we get him. There is a little bit of a, it really just feels like that's that plus this is one episode. Yeah. And that's kind of why I watched it, but also at the same time between waiting an entire

[00:12:43] year to find out who the person he killed was. And then on top of that, also seven months. Okay. And then waiting an additional 30 minutes into the premiere before you even found out who it was. I think so many people were just like, just tell me who it was already. Like I need to know. And then annoyed so many people. Yeah. Be patient. That's what I said. Yeah. Come on. Let it play out in stories. Like, you know, let it go.

[00:13:09] But it felt, I'm going to, I'm going to, it felt like they were just fucking with you. Like I, I, I think they were. I think you can be patient. Exactly. And, but it is, it is this thing of like, okay, I've been patient for seven months. This is, and when it's a nice surprise, it's one thing when it's a fucking horrible surprise. You're like. Yeah. That's kind of why this cliffhanger, in my opinion, you know, there's still arguments about whether it failed or not. And I think some people just don't have patience for any cliffhangers.

[00:13:39] And I'm like, nah, I grew up with cliffhangers. Like I said, I said this already with Alex, but I grew up with who shot JR. We had to wait like a whole summer. But for this cliffhanger, you're waiting to see which of your favorite characters just got beaten to death. That's no fun. That's not. That's no fun. I remember the marketing, there were like billboards with the lineup. Who did Negan kill? Like it's a big celebration or something. It was fucked up. I'm like, how badly are you going to be hurt here? Find out. Which of these people that you've been rooting for got fucking nutted?

[00:14:07] Like it was really, I vividly remember there was one in Glasgow that we used to have to stop by a lot. And I was just like, this is stressing me out. But even to your point too, about fucking with people is like, like they absolutely were fucking with you in the season finale with the eeny, meeny, mighty, moe showing all the different faces with Lucille in front of their face. And then you get to the premiere and now you're seeing flashbacks of Rick and it's more eeny, meeny, mighty, moe before they even show you who it is.

[00:14:35] And I know a lot of people who had read the comics knew that Glenn was the one that ultimately met his fate. And I think- But Kirkman changed things in the show sometimes. So we didn't know for sure whether it was going to be at the show. Exactly. Like there were some people that were like by the season six finale were like, oh, it's Glenn that got it, like that they got it. And then when we see that it's Abraham at first, people were like, oh, it wasn't Abraham or it wasn't Glenn. He put a twist on it. And then it ends up being Glenn again anyway.

[00:15:03] Like they were Kirkman and all that they were absolutely fucking. Oh yeah. That's what Kirkman does. He did in the comic over and over again. He likes to play with people like that. And for me, I think it's kind of delightful. Although Negan style of fucking with you, like I said at the top, a little goes a long way. And two seasons of it was too much for me. It was just like, all right, this guy revels in being a total asshole, you know, making comments

[00:15:30] about women's weight and just all kinds of stuff where it's like, it's not funny anymore. It's not fun. But by the time we got to the end of this episode, for me personally, I was still like, okay, I'm on board with this as hard as it is. I think it's interesting that reading, it came up in when I was looking up stuff for the IMDb, but like they did in the writer's room toy with not having Glenn die. And because I was, I was in a way surprised they stuck the landing on it because I had this

[00:16:00] whole theory about what other stuff was going to happen in that. But I think they said it just on the way they phrased it was like it unraveled the yarn of too many other things down the line. And I was like, I kind of see that, but I'm also like, not that much happened. I think it gave Maggie more to do. Yes, absolutely. And now we have Dead City. Steven Yeun, I think he was ready. He was frustrated that Glenn didn't get more to do.

[00:16:25] Well, he said in a couple of articles, he'd rather have gone out with a bang than stuck around and faded into the background. He already was. Yeah. Kind of fading into the background in some sense, just because there were so many characters and he's never done anything else. Like the episode where it's the one where Rick departs and he has flashbacks of Herschel, Shane and Sasha. Oh, it should have been Glenn.

[00:16:52] In the comic, that was Glenn because it was modeled after an issue of the comic. And I think they did ask Steven Yeun and he didn't want to do it. So he was on to his Hollywood career. I think the only thing he's ever come back for is in the finale when you have a bunch of voiceover characters saying, what are they saying? The ones who live. We are the ones who live. We are the ones who live. I think Steven Yeun's one of those. Yeah. Which is something, he was recording Invincible at the time.

[00:17:21] So that's something he could have just done at home and sent to them. They're like, hey, Steven, can you just say we're the ones who live? Because Invincible is going to say that. Damn it, Robert. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They could have tricked him into that. He didn't even agree to do it. Right. What? That's on The Walking Dead. I'm done with that. God damn it. It did make me happy that he did Invincible though. That felt like a goodwill thing. Like, it's great in its own right. I read an interview with Kirkman and he just sort of offhandedly said, yeah, Invincible is way more popular than The Walking Dead ever was.

[00:17:50] And that really hit me like, oh my God. Is it? I think he's forgetting about the highs of The Walking Dead, man. He's just going by viewer numbers. Yeah, I suppose. And I've never seen Invincible, which is like- No way! You're fucking kidding. Oh, man. You'd like it. I know I need to. You've got to watch that. Well, now that it's finished, I plan to watch it. You know, it's not finished. I can just binge through it. Oh, is it not? No, that's right. There is another season coming. Is there another season coming? At least one more.

[00:18:12] But one of the best things about Invincible is, so Steven Yeun plays the lead character who's a superhero, Mark something. He's a kid. Mark Grayson. Grayson. And in one episode, he fights this villain voiced by JDM. And it's just a knockdown, drag out rematch, you know? Amazing. So good. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah, it's on my list to watch. I definitely need to watch it.

[00:18:41] Let us know when you do, because it's... Then Invincible crushes his skull with a barbed wire bat over and over again. It's awesome. Oh, I'm just kidding. Great. You know what? It's so funny, too, that you bring that up, because I love the fact that any time there have always been these little Walking Dead nods in other shows, because JDM played the fathers of the brothers in Supernatural. Yeah. And his character was killed off early on. But at one point, there's an episode where they're in some bunker.

[00:19:09] That's their home base. And there's a bat with barbed wire wrapped around it on a table. And they were like, oh, that belonged to our dad. That's amazing. When somebody asked about it, they're like, oh, that belonged to our dad. That's funny. A fun little nod to Walking Dead and Supernatural. All right. Let's revert to the format and get into our points. Ben, would you like to go first? Well, so I want to start with something, actually, because I felt it was kind of brought up a minute.

[00:19:36] And that's, Lucy, what you said with Maggie and her reaction to all of this and everything happened. We do talk about Dead City now, because we're about to go into the next season of that. And I picked up on something. I know there were a lot of people that were like, I don't understand how you could put the two of these people together. And that's a valid argument. But when it came down to everything, after Negan had left and everybody had left and they

[00:20:03] were left to their own devices afterwards, Maggie's the first person that has the strength to even stand up. Everybody else is absolutely 100% totally broken, Rick included. And she's hurt. She's like, yeah, she's sick. She's hurt. Yeah. Like, but she's still the first person that has the strength to get up and say, like, no, we have to do something about this. We got to get ready. We got to fight. And I'm like, and in that moment, I had completely forgotten about that until I rewatched this episode.

[00:20:32] And in seeing that, I'm like, okay, I now understand a little bit better why these characters were put together. Because they are two people who have the particular fortitude to stand up when you're down. Like Negan, of course, we know how ballsy he was to begin with. But Maggie's got that strength, too. So, and I kind of almost feel like maybe this, I'm certain at that point during writing that episode, the idea of let's put the two of these guys together in a spinoff was not even

[00:21:02] anywhere close to the writer's room. But I kind of get it a little bit more now. Maggie's always been one of my favorite characters and one of the strongest characters from the series. But in that moment, when she's the first one to stand up, I was like, yeah, I 100% that certified why she's one of my favorite characters and one of the strongest characters in the series. I was just like, bitch, they just carried you on a stretcher. You can stand. Yeah. She got the adrenaline rush. You couldn't walk this whole time? You couldn't walk? She got an adrenaline rush.

[00:21:31] Well, I... She pulled the Grandpa Joe from Willy Wonka. Right? Uh, I... One thing that helped me appreciate Dead City was when you find out, spoilers people, that and I may be getting the exact detail of this wrong, but something like Maggie sort of lured Negan in to help her under false pretenses, but actually the idea was like to trade her for her son that was in trouble and knowing that he was going to be killed or something like that.

[00:22:01] It was. It was absolutely... She's betraying him. That was the intention. The intention was the person who had her son was somebody who had worked with Negan previously, so she knew Negan would be able to get close to him, but at the same time, she'd be able to trade Negan for... Yeah. ...for Herschel. And in season two, I feel like, you know, they were still somewhat adversarial. You know, it was gray area, but in season three, they've been making a big deal out

[00:22:29] of how now they're going to be allies, willing allies, you know, where she invites him into her community to help and there's no ulterior motive. And I mean, everything I'm saying about all this is my own personal thing. I don't want listeners to think that I think you shouldn't feel differently. So just with that caveat, I think that's fucking bullshit. Like I never... With Maggie, I could see her going, okay, you saved my son several times.

[00:22:59] You saved his life. You saved other people. I see that you have changed, that you are a new man. Thank you. Have a nice life. See you later. Like I don't... Which is what we saw in the finale, no? I don't want to see Maggie going, okay, let's be friends now after this episode. I never would. Like imagine someone killed someone that you cared about like that. I don't think you'd ever want to be friends with them again, no matter what. You know what I mean? And I get that.

[00:23:28] It's sort of like a... I'm still going to watch Dead City, but that's how I feel. If the situation were more like, okay, we're square for now. I'll let you walk away until next time. Yeah, you get to live. Congratulations. Yeah, exactly. But if I see you again, it's going to be different. Not as in like we're going to hug. Yeah. Right, right, right. But I'm going to stab you in the back. Yeah. And I'll watch, you know, if they ever get together as a couple, I'm not watching that. I don't know. I don't think they would ever do that.

[00:23:56] I hope not, but I never thought they'd do this, so we'll see. It would be like, I don't know, Jim actually having an affair in the office or something. Like they would lose too many viewers. I'm so glad they didn't go that route. Oh my God, can you imagine? I think, yeah, I think the problem with the Negan and Maggie stuff sometimes is they come so close to reaching these nice conclusions and then they always bring it back.

[00:24:21] Like the, you know, Negan and Maggie's standoff in the comics is one of my favorite things. And they kind of rushed it in the show because Lauren Cohen was leaving and I feel like it didn't hit as hard. But then I thought their scene together was one of the best bits of the finale because Negan didn't talk and Lauren Cohen just knocked it out of the park. And it's interesting. I think in the, I think there's something quite real in Dead City about actually you don't ever get over that. Like it's like in that first season where she's like, I'm still angry.

[00:24:50] Like, I'm like, yeah, I would be like that. I'd be like, I forgive you. And then three years later, be fucking livid about it. I'd be like, no, I don't forgive you. You've fucked my life up. But it's okay. Like in the comic, Negan gets banished and he redeems himself more cleanly than I would say he does in the show. And then he gets banished and he doesn't argue. And that just felt right to me. And they didn't do that here because Lauren Cohen and JDM have great onscreen chemistry. People love both characters. There's drama inherent in them being onscreen together.

[00:25:17] And so they can make money by having them be together, even if it wouldn't make sense for Maggie to accept that, you know? But I, you know, I was saying before when you were coming on, Ben, I was like, I've watched the trailer for season three and it gave me weird feelings. So I'm interested to watch it and see how they play it. Yeah, me too. It doesn't help that Lauren Cohen just is an ageless goddess. So I'm like, how much time has passed? Herschel's how old? And I'm like, and she looks like basically exactly the same. You can tell that she's aged, but she's fucking gorgeous.

[00:25:47] Oh, absolutely. I would say she's aged maybe. And it still cracks me up that everybody thinks she's British. She's from New Jersey. Yeah. Well, she has that British accent. That's why. She's got a Moira Rose. Yeah. She's got a Moira Rose accent, which I love. She grew up in the UK, but she was born in New Jersey. She's a Jersey girl, which I just love about that. She moved there when she was 30. No, I'm just kidding. And her mom is from the same very small part of Scotland that Peter is from, which I

[00:26:17] find really cool. Yeah. The portrait of Glasgow. I'm like, oh. And you know what's funny too, is I actually have not watched the trailer for season three yet. I'm kind of going into covering season three. I wouldn't be completely surprised. Like I haven't looked at anything this season. So I'm approaching it a little bit differently this time. It's cool. I usually try to do pretty much that. I don't want to know too much at a time. Yeah.

[00:26:45] Maggie standing up at the end of the lineup was one of the bits I remembered most, just because it was the one bit of like love in the episode. There's still love for these people. They're still looking out for one another. Like they all want to look out for Maggie. They all want to help her in those moments of like everyone saying, you know, Glenn's family too. And then Abraham's got Eugene and Rosita and Sasha. And those are harrowing moments, but they're also quite powerful in uniting us and reminding

[00:27:14] us what we love about the show and about the characters. But I think you're right, Ben. I think the fact that she's the first to stand up and say, we're going to fight. And it's funny to me because I don't think Glenn would do that. And that's interesting. I'm always like Maggie's always had this propensity to go darker than Glenn. And I think this is really pulls that out. And that's kind of fun, particularly for a female character to go dark in that way. But I think something even more powerful about that moment, other than the fact of just showing

[00:27:38] Maggie's strength, is the fact that with everything that Negan did and as broken as all of those people are, he still couldn't break everyone. And the one person who should have been broken more than anyone, Maggie, who just watched her husband and the father of her child die in front of him, brutally murdered in front of her, is still the one that stands up and says, we have to get ready to fight. She's not completely broken. No.

[00:28:06] I'm sad because in the comics, I think she actually punches Rick, which I thought would have been quite interesting to watch. But yeah, I think you're totally right. This word doesn't really cover it, but she's triggered, right? Yeah. She, she, she, it's not going to do anything if she goes, she won't even make it to wherever she doesn't know where he is. She doesn't, she probably couldn't get there because she's so sick. She's hurt. Right. So, and they're like, we're not going to let you do that.

[00:28:35] But yeah, the point really was that she was ready, ready to do it. And she remains ready, I think. And then she's pissed off when Rick doesn't kill him in the end. Oh, it's heartbreaking. What? But, but, um, I liked, yeah, that they all stood up and were like, even Rick, he's like, Maggie, Maggie, like, he's just been severely broken, but he's still right there trying to take care of her right away. So yeah, what you're saying, Lucy, like they're all, it's a lot of heart there. Yeah. It's good to see at the end.

[00:29:02] And then that devastating fantasy sequence of Sunday dinner with Glenn and little Herschel. And Abraham. I always love, like, they always give people weird wigs for those kinds of things. Always. Like, I love them. It's such a touching scene, but I'm like, what's up with Maggie's hair? She's just got it cut. Whoa. I'm like, why is it curly? And I'm like, oh, Sasha, that's an interesting dress. That just got me. I was like, oh, why'd you put that in there? That's what we wanted to see.

[00:29:31] I think it's so your last image of them isn't. Yeah. Maybe. Roadkill. Right. Right. And, uh, as Jason mentioned, a hamburger commercial. Yeah. Right after. Hamburger helper. No. Oh God. But, uh, I, I saw when I was trying to find a good image for the podcast for this episode, I picked that one cause I wanted the focus to be on something nice. But, um, I saw some other images that I didn't remember seeing in the episode of Glenn playing

[00:30:00] with little Herschel in the grass. And it turned out that they filmed some other more stuff that didn't make it into the episode with them playing together. Angela Kang's kiddo, right? Is that right? Yeah. I think you're right. I think so. Yeah. I think that's Angela Kang's kid. He's 35 now. He's, he's a podcaster in his own right. All right, Lucy, what do you got? Um, I, I've gone for flavor. I'm just here for the vibes today. Okay. Okay.

[00:30:28] So I'm just here to comment on what you guys say. Okay. I'm adding spice. Steps to, to break Rick is my first one. Cause I think this episode's about a lot of things, but the main through line is all about Negan bringing Rick to heel cause he senses that Rick is feeling rebellious and angry. I mean, it's not too hard to sense. He says, I want to kill you. Yeah. Hmm. But, uh, like he knows if I can get Rick to fear and supplicate to me that, well, at least

[00:30:57] he thinks that his people will be more likely to follow and then I'll have a new set of resources. And also I just think that Negan, he loves a challenge. He loves to break people. He's all about dominating. And one of the things that bothers me about dead city, I'm sorry, Ben, I don't mean to No worries. I'm fine with it. Is that scene where he's like repeating the lineup with some of his enemies in the show,

[00:31:26] but you see him beforehand. Like he's got to work himself up to it. Cause he really doesn't like to do this, but it's all a show. And I'm like, that is fucking bullshit retcon because you can tell the way he's playing it. He loves it. He's so into it. And he just loves to break people and say the worst cruelest thing possible just to, you know, really break them down. And he knows, he knows how to do it too, methodically.

[00:31:50] And I just think he's really, not only is he being strategically smart by breaking the leader so he can get his group to become his minions or whatever, his workers. He's also just psychologically getting off on the whole process. That's what I think. Like you, you, and you mentioning like having to work himself up to it, just put this weird image in my head of Negan in the Winnebago before everything started.

[00:32:18] Standing in front of a mirror going, I can do this. Yeah. I can do this. You're good enough. You're smart enough. And gosh darn it, people love me. Don't cry. Don't cry. You're a strong, independent man. Well, you know, I think it was all an excellent piece of theater production. So I'm sure Simon gave him a pep talk like, you can do this. You're my star. You're my good boy. He even had a Sharpie to sign autographs. Like, come on. That's right. Don't deny the allegiance.

[00:32:49] So, so Rick says, I'm going to kill you. And what I didn't quite catch that you're going to have to speak up. Not today, not tomorrow, but I'm going to kill you. And then that's sort of the impetus for the rest of the episode. He takes him to the RV. Well, here's, here's just sort of a rundown on the steps. He fucked with him by dragging him over to the RV and brought him inside and left himself open.

[00:33:14] You know, immediately turns his back on him just to show that even then Rick can't kill him. And then he went and I'm just going over these quickly, but we can go in more detail later. He put him in danger with the Zeds and then saved his life. I think just to show I'm fully in control of your fate. Then he made him fetch his weapon, give it to Negan, then gave it back to him. Reinforcing, you're not a threat to me. I'm not afraid of you. Even I'm just going to give your weapon right back to you. And none of that fully breaks Rick. He can see by the look on his face.

[00:33:43] So he almost forces him to chop Carl's arm off. And that's really what does it. Because he went from, I'm going to kill you to just begging for his life and begging for his sons not to have to do that. And really, I'm so, I so admire Andrew Lincoln for fully going there with snot and all. Yeah. Oh, yes. He much more reminded me of the guy from Coldwater. Yeah.

[00:34:10] And then it's not just these steps that Negan took, but his attitude, like making everyone kneel, playing Eeny, Meeny, Mighty, Moe, like his big joke, cracking cruel jokes, forcing them to look like sticking the bloody bat right in front of Rosita right after he killed Abraham. That's not just about what do I need to do to break these people, but it's like to completely dominate the emotional reality of everybody.

[00:34:35] And just the fact that he seems to be getting a kick out of it makes it so even more hopeless. Like he's just having, toying with us, having fun. And then just thinking about whether you said Maggie's maybe the only one he doesn't break. And I was asking myself, does he really break Rick?

[00:34:55] And I think in a sense he does, in a sense that Rick gives up on thinking he can defeat him, but not in the way that Negan has broken many where they feel allied to him and stand up for him. And forgive me, everyone, for being political, but I think about J.D. Vance, who called himself a never-Trumper and once called Trump America's Hitler. And now he's standing right by his side, standing up for him.

[00:35:24] And I think Trump loves that. I think that's one of the reasons why Trump picked him, because he knew he said that. And he's like, I'm going to get this guy kissing my ass every day. And I don't think Rick is there. No way. He's not. He hates Negan, but he's also feeling powerless against him. Yeah. So he accomplished that. He can accomplish that. Yeah. I mean, this is one of those. And I think that's one of the reasons why Negan comes across.

[00:35:51] And maybe it's one of the reasons why people just didn't like Negan as a character is because this is the first time we've... This is the most we've ever seen Rick broken at this point, even if it's not completely. Exactly. And this is a guy who he overcame Terminus. He overcame the governor. Like, he overcame all these adversaries. And this is the one guy who puts him on his knees. That's right. It's hard to watch. It's hard to watch, but I think that's what drew me in. I'm like, okay, I really need to see where this is going to go. Yeah.

[00:36:19] Like, I was telling Alex last week, for all of season six, Rick is judging the Alexandrians for not being ready. You're not ready for this. You don't know what's out there. We know. And, you know, you're naive. You're optimistic. And then it turned out he did the same thing because he thought he knew everything. He could handle anything. And he was wrong. He didn't know as much as he thought. He wasn't as prepared as he thought. And when Negan said last week sucks, don't it? That moment you realize you don't know shit. It's like full circle, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:48] In a weird sense, it's almost like Negan is Rick's Thanos. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean, when I think when Rick got taken away by the helicopter CRM, Negan was in a cell, right? That was in season nine. And so I would love to see Rick come back and be like, he's out? What happened? You know, and have some kind of a reunion or something like that. Yeah. See if Rick keeps his promise.

[00:37:19] I have him just turn up and shoot him. I mean, all right. There has been rumors. Like, people have mentioned like on panels and stuff like that, that there have been like slow and low talks about doing some kind of project that brings survivors back together. Yeah. Scott Gimbel keeps saying he wants to do it, but it's complicated, but he hopes he can do it at some point. I don't think. I think they won't get denied. That is my theory.

[00:37:45] I just, I think she would, I think she did the ones who live because she understood and cared for that story. Yeah. I just don't see her coming back to Michonne, but I don't know. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe if they said, you know what? We're going to do one more limited series with all the main characters. Maybe they could get her back for that. Or just have her be like Howard's mother in the Big Bang Theory and just be off screen all the time. Just have Rick be like, is that okay, darling? And she's like, yeah. And they're like, great. Michonne's fine with it. Yeah.

[00:38:15] I'm with you. I think she would be the one that might be the hardest to get back. I think Norman Reedus would love to do it. It sounds like Andrew Lincoln would totally be into it. I mean, and I've, I've, I've talked to Ross Marquand and Carrie Payton directly about it, and they've both said they're 100% on board to do something. That would be great. If they would come back. Yeah. Ross Marquand could just be everyone. He's good at impressions. That sounds so true. He'd be Michonne. Yeah. I mean, that wouldn't be problematic at all. That'd be great. I'm sure that'd go down really well. Yeah. No problem at all.

[00:38:45] You could do it as an animated, you could do it as an animated series. And. Oh, that, I mean, Kirkman wants to do Walking Dead kind of like Invincible straight from the comics more. Or. Oh, you could get away with so much shit. Yeah. Or following the comics more closely. And it would be amazing, but it's all tied up in the rights. He doesn't want to work with AMC anymore. He said he won't do it unless he can get the rights back for himself. And then you really could have Ross play every character. It'd be amazing. I would genuinely be quite into that.

[00:39:14] I would think it would be hilarious. I would love if they could actually do it. Okay. Do you want to do another point, Ben? Or. Yeah, no, I have some other stuff I can bring up. I mean, and it kind of tags on, it kind of tags onto what you were talking about too, about the breaking of Rick in that one of the things I realized that I kind of, I feel like I already knew all this whole time, but it really stood out to me and rewatching this episode is we all have that iconic, that iconic image of Negan and Lucille with blood

[00:39:42] dripping off of Lucille or just Lucille in general and him always wielding Lucille. And we're always in our minds that like Lucille is his weapon. And I thought about that a little bit more and I'm like, you know what? Like, I don't think I buy that anymore. It's a physical representation of his weapon, but Lucille is not his actual weapon. His weapon is humiliation. That is what he uses more than anything else. Lucille is just to get people's defenses down and it makes it easier to humiliate you.

[00:40:11] It's just one more tool of humiliation and oppression. Yeah. I mean, he only uses Lucille when he needs to make a point. And that was Abraham and Glenn. But after those two, everything he does with Rick, Lucille is not involved. It's all Negan. It's all words. It's all humiliation and putting you, literally forcing you down to your lowest point. Yeah. And just like fucking with him psychologically and things like that. Yeah. Like, say, putting the axe down and turning his back and saying, come on.

[00:40:41] I felt like he was like the emperor there. Give in to your hate. And then Rick grabbed it. And then he turned around, you know, just like messing with people. Yeah. He was a gym teacher. That's all I'm saying. Sorry, any gym teachers. But you know what you did. You know what you did. You know what you did. Yeah. No redemption. But I mean, like, I just thought about that.

[00:41:06] And then over everything that we see with Negan over the course of time, even in the Dead City now, I'm like, yeah, like, he's still somebody who just uses words more than anything else to really. I mean, he's physical when he needs to be, but more than anything else, if he can revert to words first, he does. There's a part of Negan that's very, like, Arrested Development teen bully. Like, he's, you know how he famously likes children and gets on with them.

[00:41:31] And I think one of the reasons he was probably quite a good teacher to those that he liked is because he can relate to that. He's got that kind of, there's something about that base humiliation to me that makes a lot of sense. It's exactly what you're saying, Ben, about, like, how he relates to the world around him and why maybe he finds kids easier because, you know, they're on his level. Yeah. I mean, I was so glad that Abraham's final words were suck my nuts. Yeah. And it's. Do you know, I bet that made Negan regret it.

[00:41:59] I bet he was like, oh, man, we would have gotten on. And he, I think he had a genuine laugh here. Do you hear what he said? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's even, like, even to that point, like, I think every time Negan laughed, like, at something, it's because he genuinely laughed. He genuinely found it amusing. Like, he wasn't. He found this entire situation fun and funny. Which is fucking psychotic. It is. It really is. It is. Because you just hurt people real bad. You piece of shit. Yeah.

[00:42:28] But I feel like, like, going back to your point earlier about psyching yourself up and, like, getting yourself, working yourself up to it. But I think the diametrical difference is that in Dead City, he had to do that because he didn't have a group of people behind him consistently, like, supporting him and following him. In Dead City, it was by himself. So he needed to put that pressure behind him. He needed to put that support behind himself because nobody else was doing it for him.

[00:42:57] So earlier on, he had everybody else. Like, he didn't. It was all there in front of him. Yeah. I get the sense that Jeffrey Dean Morgan's like, come on, I want people to like Negan. How can we make him more likable? What if we just tell everyone that he didn't really mean it? He didn't mean it. It was just an act. No, I think there's an argument that Negan believes what he's saying in Dead City that it was an act because that's how he lives with himself. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, yeah, it wasn't an act. That would make the story better.

[00:43:26] But I just think, I think that the writer's intention isn't to say, oh, he's convinced himself it was an act. I think the writer's intention is, oh, let's reveal something so that people understand that Negan was just pretending back then. Yeah. They threw something into his backstory to make him more sympathetic so that you could understand a little bit more why he was the way that he was. But that's called a retcon because that's not what they had in mind when they wrote this episode and acted it out.

[00:43:54] What they had in mind is that he's a psychopath who really enjoys this. It's clear. It's right on the screen. And no one can ever make me believe that he was in that trailer trying to psych himself up for it. Oh, no, I don't believe. I said that as a joke. I don't believe he was really in there psyching himself up. No, I know you said it as a joke, but I'm just saying that's, I think that is what Dead City is trying to get us to think. That was dramatic reveal. That was all that, all that was, was having him in the Winnebago.

[00:44:22] But it's almost like, I mean, if you compare it a little bit to Stranger Things, how they kind of threw, and apologies for any spoilers for anybody who hasn't watched the series finale, but how they kind of threw a little bit of a backstory into Henry so that you understood why he became Vecta and he was doing the things that he was doing. JDM has also said that Negan never slept with any of his wives. You believe that? I don't know if I believe that. You said it. I don't know if I believe that.

[00:44:51] What were those birth control scenes all about? Where they're going to check and see if they're pregnant or whatever it was, I forget. Jason, you're not going to turn me. I still like Negan. Yeah, I was going to say, let's talk about the episode. No, no, no. I know that wasn't your point. What do you mean? This is all part of the discussion about Negan, and I'm not trying to turn you. It's true.

[00:45:18] I mean, hey, I wasn't telling you not to talk about it. No. No, no, no. Yeah, no. I mean, this is part of the discussion about him is- I love that we have differences of opinion on this character. Yeah, me too. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think we should all feel free to say what we really think. What I think is that they tried to soften his image by retconning some things. Yeah. That's all.

[00:45:45] I also love the fact that there are people who openly admit they hate Watch Dead City just because they like Alex and I's coverage. Oh, that's cool. That's a good compliment. I'm okay with that too. I like that. I think hate watching for someone is a sign of love. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. We had, I mean, we had people saying they listened to our Fear coverage without watching the show. I thought that was kind of nice. Oh, that's even nicer because then, you know, they're not putting themselves through it. Wait, there was a spinoff called Fear the Walking Dead? No.

[00:46:15] Oh, no. No. It ended. So let's see. The RV. First, Negan in the lineup still kneels down right after Rick said, I'm going to kill you. Kneels right down his face next to his. And I was thinking, I wonder if Rick's thinking about biting his throat out right there. And I wonder what would have happened. Like, cause in the RV, you know, Negan sticks the hatchet on the table and turns his back on Rick and Rick hesitates.

[00:46:44] And I think that kind of showed that he are. He had already gotten his head. And then Negan says that your best chance is to grab that axe and kill me. And he goes for it. And Negan turns the gun on him. And I'm like, maybe you should just throw it at his face. But I wondered what would happen if he did kill Negan in there. What was there? Was Rick consciously thinking, if I do kill him, maybe the saviors will just kill all our

[00:47:13] people because we don't come back or whatever. That's absolutely what would have happened. Yeah. 100%. Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind. So that's a big factor, right? Negan knew that. He was like, there's no way you're going to kill me because you have no control over what happens. But he did try. He did grab the hatchet. He grabbed it, but he thought better of it. In a moment, a rare moment of clear thinking from Rick, I would say in situations like this, he decided not to do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, did he decide not to do it because Negan whipped around and had the gun on him

[00:47:42] or because he was thinking about what it might mean? I think it's people. Yeah. He's done riskier shit with a gun pointed to him. I mean, I think also he got in his head because Negan says, don't make me get up again and then turns his back on him again. And I just think he's imposing this learned helplessness on Rick. Like you can't do anything. It makes me think about this experiment with dogs.

[00:48:08] It's horrible, but where they would like subject them to light electric shocks and one group of dogs could just jump right out. So they did. But the other group of dogs couldn't because they had like a top on it or something. So they just learned to live with it. And then when they would take the top off, the dogs would still sit there and let themselves be shocked. I know it's horrible. Sorry. But it's not. I mean, anyway, I think that's sort of the psychological thing at play with Negan. He's like, even when I'm not here watching you, you're just going to do what I want you to do. Yeah. I'm watching you.

[00:48:37] Well, even with some of those moments in the RV when he throws the axe outside and he forces him to go get the axe. Like there are moments that Rick could easily have been killed by some of the walkers, but Negan shoots him and he's like, I'm not going to let you die right now. I'm not done fucking with you yet. And I think that's sort of the point. It's like, I'm even saving you right now. And like when he, you know, pretends that he's going to, I'm jumping ahead, but force him to chop Carl's arm off. And man, what a, what a hard scene.

[00:49:08] Like that's just about as hard as watching Glenn get beaten to death. It's just so awful. And I was so afraid and having Carl sit there and go do it, dad. I was so grateful to him to give him permission like that. But, um, then he stops him from having to do it. And I imagine there might be a part of Rick totally involuntary. That's grateful to Negan, you know? And so it's much smarter of Negan not to have him go through with that, where that might

[00:49:35] just leave Rick feeling completely infuriated and instead given the psychologically confusing feeling of thank you, sir. You know? Yeah. I think that's exactly the point. I mean, it's, it's, you know, to, for Negan to. To stop him from doing it is meant for, to put that in, that, put that thought in Rick's head of, I'm, I'm thankful for that moment. You know? I'm thankful that he didn't force me to do this. Yes. Mm-hmm. Like Stockholm Syndrome. Yeah. Totally.

[00:50:05] Um, but back to the RV. So I, I loved the visuals in this foggy area. It was, it felt bright for the episode somehow, artful and like just being lost and out of control or something. And, um, I liked the flashes that Rick was having of each person and quick flashes of some of the other scenes that we've seen them in. And I think the point of this trip, what?

[00:50:34] Isn't it a good way of using up the footage they'd taken of everyone getting done to just in case that got leaked? I thought that was quite smart. I was like, oh, at least they used it. Yeah. I guess they filmed everybody getting hit just so that the leaks would be less likely to come off set. So they put that in there. But I think, yeah, the, well, Negan says the clock's ticking, Rick. Think about what can still happen. So this RV trip is about a lot of things, fucking with him and everything, but also

[00:51:01] giving him time to think about what could happen to people. So when he thinks of Glenn and Abraham, I think that's about what he just lost. And then when he thinks of the others, it's about what could be lost, but we don't know who's dead yet. So we're not sure why he's thinking about that. Like at the time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that's the RV stuff. What about, what else, Ben? What about the lineup? Do we want to just zero in on that or do you have something else?

[00:51:30] So I wanted to talk about one of the main reasons why, like I said at the top of this episode, that this is one of my favorite episodes of the series. It's not just because of the introduction of Negan, which was a character I was waiting for us to get because I was reading the comics at the time and I was already into the Negan storyline. And I knew of initially, I think there were rumors that Jon Hamm was going to be Negan. I think he would have been quite good at which I like J.D.M. is great. But yeah. And I was a big Jon Hamm fan at the at the time.

[00:52:00] So I was like, oh, that could be interesting. And then I saw Jeffrey Dean Morgan was officially cast. I was like, OK, I want to see how that turns out. And then watch that episode. And I was like, OK, I buy him as Negan. But not just like the story and the grief and the humiliation, everything. But this, I think, is out of all the entire episodes of the series, I think this is one of the most well acted episodes of the entire series.

[00:52:24] The acting that comes from everybody in this, from J.D.M. to Andrew Lincoln, Lauren Cohen, like everybody in this episode. Like you said, Jason, the acting choice of the snot and everything showing the grief. I just think he had to do more than one take. They're like, Andrew, that was so great. I'm so sorry. We're going to need this. We need it. We need you to do it. So can you just blow it out again? Once again. Yeah.

[00:52:53] But I mean, like, I think everybody was all the acting was so well done in this episode, particularly from J.D.M. and from Andrew Lincoln, which were two completely different types of character that they were playing, because Andrew Lincoln in this episode goes through nearly every stage of trauma in less than an hour. Denial, anger, bargaining, panic and surrender. Like he goes through all of these stages in less than an hour and he acts them so well

[00:53:22] that you know exactly what stage he's in when he's in it. With minimal dialogue. Minimal. Like he doesn't talk much. And I think you're so right, Ben. I will say that was one of my big takeaways rewatching this was like, once again, Andrew Lincoln should have got an Emmy nomination. Like it just is. It's a sin that he was never recognized for his work on this show because it's so good. And it's the most I've ever liked Negan in this episode in terms of the performance. I think I do think J.D.M. is strong in that character.

[00:53:51] I think he really owns it. But I think this. There was a level of care and thought to the performance in this episode, obviously, because it was the intro that I think paid off dividends. Interestingly, he doesn't. I was thinking about, you know, what makes Negan scary or what makes him intimidating. And I think you actually hit the nail on the head, Ben, with the humiliation aspect. It's the idea that he could see exactly how to pull you down without much.

[00:54:18] But he doesn't scream and shout, you know, he's not. He does so much without actually doing the traditional things that we associate with. People who you would be scared of or intimidated by. There's not a lot of screaming. There's not a lot of like actually not that much physical violence. A lot of it is the threat of violence, the humiliation of spectacle. And I thought it was particularly interesting because J.D.M. is a skinny guy. And in the books, Negan looks like a human Dorito. Like he's huge.

[00:54:47] Like he's a Dorito turned. I was like, he's this bulky ass guy. And I did think I remember the only issue I had watching J.D.M. when I first saw it was like, he's not really menacing enough posing. Yeah, there's something about Negan in the comics that was physically huge and scary.

[00:55:06] But I thought what he commanded and what he brought out of the performances with the other actors and his kind of the way he interacted with them was just outstanding. Like, yeah, the standard is high. He really does so much in this episode. He's a little bit like Pennywise or Freddy Krueger. Yeah. Right. He's totally in charge and having fun with his prey and delighted by it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:35] They needed with the introduction of Negan. You know, I mentioned Terminus and the governor and they needed a villain to come in to distinguish himself as being a villain set above all these other villains. Blow everyone else out of the water. Again, he was the Thanos of this story. But Kirkman had such a great time with his mouth, you know, just the way he talks. And that was one of the reasons why he was so appealing in the comic.

[00:56:05] And I think that worked for the show, but it's so much darker on screen and live action that it feels more offensive. I mean, I still can't help but laugh. It's puerile. So like a couple of times I chuckled when he's driving the RV, smashing into Zeds and blood spatters on the windshield. And he goes, that remind you of anyone you know? I'm just like, that is really bad, man.

[00:56:34] But I could not help but laugh. And I'm sure you're right that the writers probably had a field day with Negan because this is an opportunity for them to write, to make a villain out of words. Rather than like a stunt coordinator doing some stunt work. Like this is who we get to be the driving force. Yes, that's a good point. And I also liked when how he spent the whole episode breaking Rick. Like that was the whole point of it.

[00:57:02] And then he points at Daryl and goes, he's got guts. Not a little bitch like someone I know. That made me laugh actually. I was like, there's the sense of which like he's, it's like Rick won't play with him or something. He's like really like, oh, like some dick in and he won't play with me. And I'm like, okay, calm down, calm down. But I did remember because I wasn't on last week's episode, something that made me absolutely burst out laughing last week's episode is Spencer coming up to them before they go, like they leave.

[00:57:32] And he's like, Rick, just before you go, do you think maybe we should reason with Negan? I'm just like, oh, Spencer, you fucking suck, man. You can't even let them go without being like, should we just like give in? And it's like, no, Spencer. But then Rick's going to come back and go, oh, yeah, we're his bitches now, Spencer. Yeah, sorry, Spencer. Yeah, you were kind of right.

[00:57:57] You're saying, you know, I agree with you, Lucy, that his performance, JDM's performance is really, I think it's exceptional in both these episodes. He's so, Negan's so moody and he just plays it so believably how he could be kind of miffed at one point, but then all of a sudden get a giggle about something or then get kind of. Delighted one second. Like menacingly aggressive occasionally, like, no, I said now or whatever. Yeah, Mercurial. But I wonder, I don't really remember. Ben, maybe you have a sense of this.

[00:58:25] Do you think JDM has kept this level pretty well or what? I actually, it's funny that you said that because I was thinking about this while we were recording. I kind of don't. I think what we get now in Dead City, while I still love the character of Negan, I think what we get now is almost Negan light. Oh, yeah. I don't think we've ever gotten the same level of Negan since this performance.

[00:58:52] I think it's, I think, like you said, Lucy, I think this is the strongest performance of Negan we've gotten. And it needed to be that strong because this was the introduction of the character. It needed to make that impact. Yeah. But I feel like they kind of tailed off a little bit ever since then. Because the whole audience were like, fuck, we hate this. And they're like, okay, we'll dial it down. But in a weird way, it wasn't that that we hated. We hated the violence. We hated the, I mean, I'm not saying everyone feels the same way I did.

[00:59:20] But like, I think sometimes that the show misinterpreted what people disliked about that episode. And like, in going down to Negan light, I think that made it more annoying. I was like, I almost want more of this guy because he's more interesting to watch. What the audience, I think, in many cases were pissed off about was being toyed with and losing people they loved in this visceral and bloody way. And I think Gaylan Hurd said they had to go back and sort of revisit how violent some of the stuff they planned for the season was and tone it down a bit.

[00:59:49] And I'm like, yeah, that's one part of it. But it's more just how you treat. I don't know. Part of me thinks it's how you treat your audience. I don't know. I think they maybe took the wrong lesson from it sometimes. And I think the show stopped being as bold in some ways. And that maybe wasn't the thing that I would have changed. Well, it kind of goes to the point that I made earlier, too, about how the writers and, you know, Scott Gimple and everybody behind the show kind of wanted.

[01:00:17] You know, we had all this talk about how in the first couple of seasons about how maybe the audience is actually the walking dead and the walking dead is not the walkers. And they always wanted to write the show in such a way that the audience felt like they were survivors along with the actual survivors of the show. And going through all this trauma, they wanted to try and break the audience the same way that Negan broke Rick. They wanted the audience to feel the way that Rick felt by the end of this.

[01:00:43] And I feel like that was so hard on some of the audience that the audience literally was broken after all this. And unlike Rick and the rest of the survivors who had no choice but to come back next week, audience didn't have audience had the choice. Yeah. Audience can nope out. Negan's polarizing. At Walker Stalker, he had bigger lines than anyone except for Norman Reedus from this debut on.

[01:01:10] And he had women proposing to him and giving him their underwear, you know. I did that once, Jason. Can you stop bringing it off on the podcast? And so I think polarizing, right? What you're saying, what you guys are saying is true for like half the audience, maybe a little bit more. But for many, many, many people, they just felt on maybe even a pre-conscious level like, fuck, this guy's so powerful.

[01:01:39] Like I'm with him, you know. And that creates a problem for a character that you want to become a main character and even an anti-hero, even a hero. Because then you need to soften them a little bit and you take away some of what attracted a lot of people in the beginning, you know. And there's a lot of heroes like that. Venom became a hero in the comics. Spider-Man villain. Punisher is another one of those like anti-heroes. Yeah.

[01:02:09] Yeah. You'd force them out of the villain category and into the anti-hero. Yeah. And so they're not going to be quite as appealing as they soften to some people who just love that full raw power from the beginning. Yeah. And it also forces you, as you said too, Jason, like it forces you to have to retcon the character because you need to give them a reason as to why now they're in this position and why they are this kind of character. Yeah. As opposed to how they were. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:38] There's a British sketch show from like the early noughties. It's animated. It's called Monkey Dust. It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. It's quite niche. It went out on BBC Three and there's this whole cartoon thing in it about this killer called Ivan Dobsky who is like the worst killer that ever lived. And it's all Silence of the Lambs stuff. And in one episode they're like, he murders people by canals. It's like, it's all very surreal.

[01:03:06] And then when I've said they're like, well, we're going to go back to where all this started. And then it flashes back. And it's just the guy going, daddy, can I go and play by the canal? And his dad goes, no. And they just forward again. And they're like, oh, that's why he did it. Right. Okay. And sometimes I feel like with Negan, that's what happened. It was daddy, can I go and play by the canal? No, you can't Negan. And oh, damn, guess I'll beat you to them. We find out. Cut to Lucille. We find out that Negan's backstory is all because he got picked last for a dodgeball game in middle school. I would believe that.

[01:03:36] I would genuinely believe that. Oh, sorry. Oh, yeah. Softball. Softball. Yeah, yeah. They wouldn't let him bat. They were like, no, you have to be backstopped. Yeah. He got picked last for a wiffle ball game. And now that forced him to become a gym teacher. And then the apocalypse happens. And now he carries Lucille. All right. Ben, get on Dead City. Get in that writer's room. That is what happened. Young Negan cartoon. Come on. So good. All right. I want to talk about the lineup a little bit. Sure. Nice.

[01:04:05] Man, you see him hit Abraham over the head a few times. And then a little bit later, Glenn with his eye popping out of his head, literally. An unforgettable image. Until this rewatch, I think I'd settled on, you know, in my head it was like, you know what? This is not a horror movie anymore. It's a character drama. But we have Greg Nicotero, the horror king.

[01:04:33] And in my mind, him and all his makeup people just got a little too giddy and treated it like it was Nightmare on Elm Street or something. But it wasn't what we needed to see because we love Glenn and Abraham, maybe to a little bit lesser degree. But watching it this time, I don't know. You mentioned you said torture porn, Lucy. I am not sure the gore is gratuitous anymore because I think it's about making us feel shocked

[01:05:00] and devastated and hopeless just like the characters witnessing us. Kind of like we've been talking about, you know, we're getting a felt sense of being broken. And it's panel for panel, the comic at that point. Yeah. Like that's one of the images. I felt like that gave Nicotero permission. Like, look, it's in the comic. We get to do it. But I just think for the story, at least if you look at it through this one lens, like they're giving you a felt sense of what it's like to be broken. And then that really did the trick, you know? Glenn can only look at it through one lens, man. Oh, man.

[01:05:30] Sorry. Oh, I feel bad now. I'm sorry. So I counted how many times Negan hit Abraham. I counted 18 and 17 for Glenn, like just overkill, man. Right? That was another thing. He's just like hitting a pile of mush at some point. And it's, it's... Oh, Glenn's fingers are twitching, man. It's so fucked up. Then sticking the bat right in the people's face, right in Rosita's face.

[01:05:57] Well, even like the, even the moment in the season six finale when it fades the black and you just still keep hearing him striking whoever he was striking at the time. Like even that is brutal and you don't see anything. It's just the sound of it. I put, you know, I do a clip. I put that at the beginning of last week's knowing that it would upset some people, but I sort of just want to remind people how bad Negan is right up front. And I haven't, you've already heard it if you're listening to me now, but I haven't decided what to put in this one.

[01:06:26] And I wonder if I should put Glenn being like, I'll, you know, I'll find out. Oh, no, don't use that. That's too, that's too rough. I'll start listening to the podcast if you do that. I'll be like, nope, I'm sorry. How about suck my nuts? Is that a good one? Yeah, that's great. I was actually thinking like taking it like a champ. Taking it like a champ. That is one line that I do actually quote quite briefly, which I really shouldn't. So then Daryl punches him and I couldn't help in the moment, but feel like, fuck yeah, you piece of shit.

[01:06:57] But then you and I had two completely different reactions to that moment. Oh, yeah. Because when you had like the moment of fuck yeah, I was like, oh, no. Yeah, I probably felt like that too. I don't really remember. But I was like, Daryl, don't be a dick. Yeah, idiots. Don't do that. Yeah. That's probably how I felt, actually. And then Negan, you know, it's just so sad. I don't need to go over it. You all know what happened. Maggie, I'll find you.

[01:07:23] And I really don't think he understands what he's saying, but it makes us think he'll find her in the afterlife, right? And Maggie can't even look at him like understandably, but just like awful, awful moment. And then later in the comics, she gets a boyfriend, but not in the show so far, right? Yeah, she does. Right? I don't think she's been with anyone else. No, she hasn't. I wonder if that will happen. And I think they were toying with Alden for a bit as a potential match there, but I'm glad they didn't go that way. For Peter's sake.

[01:07:53] In the comics, it's quite well earned. But yeah, Peter would have been like, absolutely not. But yeah, in the comics, she ends up in quite a happy relationship for a bit, which is nice. Yeah, that's nice. So I don't know. Is there anything else left to say about the lineup? I always forget Aaron was there. Yeah. I feel bad for that. I was just like, oh yeah, Aaron was there. Yeah. And you know what's funny too is I'm actually working with Ross again in August. So like, I feel like I just, I kind of want to be like, hey, I just rewatched that episode. Like you should at least backstage if not on stage.

[01:08:25] I do want to write a comedy sketch about what happens when the RV is gone and they're all just sitting there. I'm like, do they literally just sit there forever and not saying anything? Like what happens? So what do you guys do when you're not terrorizing people? Yeah. Maggie, you got a haircut. That's cool. Did you do that? It's someone that, oh, you guys have someone that does hair. Oh yeah. Awesome. Cool. He's just trying to break your leader. He'll probably be fine. Don't worry. One nice savior is like, don't worry. I brought jerky.

[01:08:53] And he gives everyone a snack or something. They're like, you know, he's done the same thing to all of us. Awful. I remember when this happened to me, I felt sick for three weeks, but you do get over it. You know what? It's okay. He's got cake. Yeah. And we have theater night. Simon does the shows. It's so good. And there's this guy, Alden. He does the best flat whites. Honestly, you're going to be. Oh wait, they're coming back. Nevermind. Everyone look grumpy again. Yeah.

[01:09:21] Cause they were on their knees at night when Rick left and then it's daytime when they come back. Literally that just makes me laugh when they turn back up and I'm like, it's fully lunch time. How long did that take you? I just don't understand. But yeah, I'm sure they had a horrible time. I'm sure it wasn't funny at all. So then do you want to go next or show me one of the next thing? I mean, the only, the only really thing I have left is kind of, I, one of my other

[01:09:48] things I love about this episode is how it permanently changes, how this series goes, progresses further. Nothing is really the same after this episode. It really changes a lot of things. You've got, this is the point where Maggie really steps up to become a leader because of all of this that happens. Rosita is forever changed. Sasha is forever changed. Carl matures dramatically after this because of being put through the trauma that he was

[01:10:17] put through and almost losing his arm. Rick never carries himself with that same invincibility again after this episode. Yeah. And I think that's to his benefit. Honestly, I think this actually ultimately changed Rick for the better because he become, I mean, for a long time, it's frustrating because he won't fight back. But once he does after that, he's back. He's the Rick that I admire the most. Yeah. Through the whole series. He's on the dark path.

[01:10:46] This is an incursion in a dark path that he is on. Like, he is not far away from becoming Negan-esque, not doing the things that Negan does. There's a lot that Negan does that Rick would never do. But the hubris and the arrogance and the kind of- Uncaringness. Way that he's leading is dangerous. It took a Negan to prevent him from becoming a Negan. I'm getting that tattooed.

[01:11:13] But yeah, like this episode is just such a catalyst for the entire next phase of the show. Absolutely. Yep. For better or for worse. I mean, there's so many online. I see people saying, ah, yeah, the show just went on too long and it was never as good. And I just totally do not agree with that. I think 9, 10, 11 are some of the best in a lot of ways. Because I firmly feel that way. You know, it's all subjective.

[01:11:38] But I think it, I wonder if it's just sort of people like what they saw first kind of a thing. But it's subjective. So I don't know. But anyway. I mean, the show, yeah, it survives without Rick. That speaks for itself. The fact that it survived for a good two, two and a half, three more seasons without Rick. That's pretty incredible. And Angela King knows how to- If you told me that now, I'd have been like- Yeah, I wouldn't. I was scared when he left. I thought, oh, it's going to suck now.

[01:12:04] But she really knew how to make us connect to the characters in a way that Scott Gimble maybe didn't, you know, that wasn't his strength all the time. No, I think he drifted from that a little bit. I think they were best. He's best was kind of the bigger thematic set pieces and kind of thinking about almost comic book style. Yeah. Whereas Angela Kang, I think her strength was always grounding the characters. And no offense.

[01:12:28] I haven't been following the rest of the podcast rewatch because I know I have so much other shit I need to watch at the same time. But rewatching this episode kind of made me sit back for a minute and be like, you know what? I kind of feel like I want to rewatch now. Like I want to start from the beginning and do a rewatch of the series. Because I remember what- You should do a podcast. I don't know. I feel like somebody's already doing it. I don't know if I want to do it. Yeah. At least a couple of us, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:58] Chris and Jason are- Where are they now? Are they- Somebody just wrote in about where they were. I think it's Terminus. Or it's like right at season five, first few episodes of season five. I really thought you meant like Chris and Jason were physically at Terminus. I'm like, that's not going to go well. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. All right. I want to talk about the last part, threatening Carl. Well, not the very last, but close to the end here.

[01:13:28] Where in the RV, I noticed he's cleaning the axe with rubbing alcohol while he's talking to Rick. Oh, they're majorly teasing us with comic book stuff there, right? Oh, was it? I don't even remember the comic anymore. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because Rick is the one that loses the arm in the comics. Yeah, in the- Well, oh, yeah. Yeah, because the governor- Over a table with the governor. The governor just full on does that. Oh, okay. I don't know that part. So that was very like, oh shit. But regardless of that, I think what you're saying is valid.

[01:13:57] But yeah, it's this moment of like, what the fuck? Why is it clean? What the fuck? Why is it clean? He does end up chopping off his hand off in the show eventually. I do like that Negan cleaned that. Yeah. So I think in the moment he's like, all right, I'm going to make this guy think that he's going to have to chop his son's arm off. So that's why. But for us watching, it's like, yeah, what is he going to do? You're right. It's probably like, oh, is this where Rick's finally going to lose his hand?

[01:14:25] But it was nice of Negan to wipe it off because he doesn't want whoever's arm he chops off to turn into a zombie, I guess. Right. That's why he did it. Yeah. And he was, he gave very, I mean, say what you like, give very exact instructions about how to do it. Like a piece of salami. Need a bit of skin. I was like, oh, this is so horrible. He marked where to cut. He's a caring guy. He's a caring guy. He's a caring guy. Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Could have done it a lot more keg handed than this, but he didn't. But it also makes you wonder, it also makes you wonder if like knowing how to cut

[01:14:55] and where to cut has been trial and error up until this point. Right. He's a pro now. I had the same thought. I was like, huh? Yeah. Suddenly this is your first video. So he forces Carl down and tells Rick to chop his arm off or he's going to kill everyone. He also says, I'm going to hit Carl over the head with my bat if you don't do this right now. And Andrew Lincoln is just so good. Michonne, man. Michonne pipes up. That's her boy. Right. That's her boys.

[01:15:24] And it's just, and the fact that Carl said, go ahead and do it. Dad made me think it was about to happen. And I'm like, do it, dad. It was more like, do it. Dad, do it. And I just, it was such a, this is what broke Rick. And it was such a powerful, effective, harrowing scene. And man, this whole episode, just piece by piece, breaking Rick down and psychologically torturing

[01:15:54] everyone while writing quips and stuff. It's disturbing that any writer would know how to do this so well. So I looked it up. Scott Gipple wrote the episode, but they all have to take credit because they break it down in the writer's room first. But I'm like simultaneously impressed and disturbed by that. The fact that somebody wrote this shit. It's twisted as fuck. I mean, I wonder, I wonder about that with a lot of different things. Like who in their right mind thought of this stuff? Yeah. How did you research this?

[01:16:22] Or did you even have to, you sicko? Yeah. I went to see Haruki Murakami talk at a book festival once and someone asked him, there's a bit in Norwegian Bird, fucking hell. Norwegian Wood. Wind Up, Wind Up Bird Chronicle. Norwegian Bird book. Well done, Lucy. The Wind Up Bird Chronicle, there's a really brutal scene in it where somebody is flayed. And it's horrible. Like the whole, it's a disgusting torture scene, like probably one of the worst things I've ever read. And someone asked Murakami about it and he just went, oh.

[01:16:52] As though he'd not written it at all. He's like, no, I'd rather not speak about that. He's not in that mindset right now, I guess. Like he was, it was just interesting to me that the people who create it are sometimes not even, like it didn't sit with him that that was something he'd written. And I just thought that was fascinating. He really was like, oh yes, that was very disturbing. No, I don't think I'll talk about that. And I was like, but you, you made us all think about it. Why aren't you talking about it? That reminds me of asking Charlie Adlard, the illustrator of the Walking Dead comic

[01:17:19] about, you know, there was a Michonne one that was particularly gruesome. Oh God, he hated that one. Yeah, he didn't want to have to draw it. And, you know, just talking about not just that, but other, because it's the Walking Dead, there's zombies and gore and everything. And he would look at reference materials to see how to draw it right. And he just felt so disturbed by having to do that, you know. So he said one of the worst ones was Carl's eye because he had to look like real eye trauma pictures. And I was just like basically vomiting when he was saying that. I was like, nope, nope, you've lost me an eye injury.

[01:17:49] Like I can't. But it's one of the reasons it was so well done. It's so weird how like mentally we can handle some things better than others. Like I know, like just speaking personally, like when it comes to kind of like the torture porn and stuff like that, like I can handle that kind of stuff. Like the gruesome nature of Abraham's death and Glenn's death. Like I can watch that stuff and be fine, but watching someone get paper cuts between their fingers. I'm like, nope, I can't do it. No, it's so funny because there are things I'm the same where I'm like, that does not bother me in the slightest.

[01:18:18] But then there were things like a couple of things that have happened in other shows where I'm like, I cannot, I'm so disturbed by this. I can't not think about it for two weeks and I wish I'd never. It's the jackass movies. Like I can watch them do all this crazy shit, like where they're hurting themselves and vomiting and all this other stuff. But there's one where they're giving themselves paper cuts. I'm like, nope, I'm skipping this. I can't watch it. It just goes right through you, right? You're just like, no, I don't want to think about that. Because you've experienced that. So like you imagine it and like, nope, I don't want to do it. Awful.

[01:18:47] That or anything where like, it's the worst person, anything where an animal is in danger. It's terrible. But like, oh, that human just died. Whatever the animal. Oh my God. I've never experienced a barbed wire bat to the face. So I don't, I can't think about that. Think of some nice things. Look at the flowers, everyone. Look at the flowers. That's not any better. Oh, wait, wait. No, no. Shall we move on to notes? Sure. Do you have any notes, Lucy? I liked that Maggie and Carl had a hug.

[01:19:17] He was the first person that she hugged after. They're kind of very brother-sister almost. Like, I don't know. There's just a really sweet relationship there. It's just a harrowing episode. I don't really have anything to add to what we've all spoken about. I feel like we did the episode justice. The ending is just very desolate. Watching as Rick drives away and sees the zombie come and start licking the ground. Eating the kind of entrails. Yeah.

[01:19:44] And I thought it was, I don't know if they intended this, but he just was like, I'm not even going to bother killing that one. I'm not in the mood. Yeah. It's just like, fine. Have at it. Like, oh, it's just rushed. And yeah, Negan gave them a truck, I suppose, for all the shit they're going to get him. Because I think Sasha and, or maybe it's just Sasha, she's taking Maggie to Hilltop with the bodies. Sasha's taking Maggie and the bodies to Hilltop with Rosita's blessing. Yeah, right. Everybody else is going back.

[01:20:14] Which is a nice moment that she includes Rosita in that. Yeah. Yeah, because that whole story, which I feel like never should have happened, just made that moment weird. Like, okay, who's more connected to Abraham here? I guess it's you. You're his girlfriend now. I banged him more. Yeah, well, I banged him more recently. So, yeah. And Eugene's like, I am also here. I watched both times. I watched both times.

[01:20:41] Well, and that moment with Rick that you're talking about, too, at the end, how he watches the walker come out and lick the entrails, and he just doesn't even bother to kill him. I feel like that's just another quick moment of showing the broken nature of Rick at that point, because he's always quick to take these walkers out anytime he gets an opportunity, which is his way of cleansing the world of this problem. Yeah. But at that point, he's like, he's accepting this world at that point. He doesn't care to clear it at that point. It's kind of like when I'm in a bad mood and I see a sink full of dishes, I'm like,

[01:21:10] I'll take care of that later. Yeah. Yeah, I can't be fucking bothered today. Whereas when you're up and at him, you're like, yeah, I'll do those. Yeah. It was nice to see Simon had a Sharpie that really did that. I was like, why would Simon? Oh, yeah, because he's like a theater director. I mean, what if he didn't have a pen? You got a pen, Simon? Yeah. No. Anybody got a pen? Get shot in the head. Yeah, right. I forgot the pen. We forgot the Sharpies. God damn it. It's like Alden's using them at the Starbucks and it's like, well, fuck you.

[01:21:39] Bring a pen. Like, yeah. No other notes from me at this point. And anytime I see Steven Oog too, like I automatically just think Grand Theft Auto 5. Absolutely. Because his character Trevor is so great in that game. Yes. Six is finally coming out. I know. I'm excited. Ben, have you watched the Taskmaster season where they have to recreate the video games yet? And James Acaster does Grand Theft Auto. No, I haven't seen that one yet. I think you'll enjoy it. It's season seven. I'm still playing catch up on earlier. See, I'm kind of working backwards. Brilliant.

[01:22:09] You'll love it. Peter was like, this is the best human interpretation of a video game I've ever seen. I was like, great. Okay. So let me know what you think. I have fallen, not to change it, I've fallen so in love with Taskmaster. That is such an amazing show. It's so good, man. I'm so glad. I think one of the only really notes that I have left that we haven't really talked about, I get the criticisms of people, why people didn't like the episode and why some people walked away from the series about it. It's the criticism of too much violence.

[01:22:39] But I also think the episode marked, in addition to kind of changing how things were story-wise, I think it also marked a big tonal change because it went from horror to misery at that point afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just like, we got a lot of little arcs with our heroes being in trouble, but then having wins.

[01:23:03] And then there was just a long period where they're just under this guy's thumb and he's delighting in it. And it's just not, after a while, it's not fun to watch. A lot of people have spoken to her as well. Yeah. Yeah. Karen, she just stayed on for another couple seasons, but her heart wasn't in it after this. We felt like we were getting beaten down on and off screen. That's right.

[01:23:31] It's amazing how one episode can go from horror builds anticipation, but this episode was just like, it emotionally drained people in less than an hour. And some people just never recovered from that. No. Yeah. I mean, take any show that you like and take one of the main characters and just have the whole episode, them being beaten over the head with a bat. It's not going to be that fun. Yeah. I remember I had just started a new job when this came out.

[01:24:00] And one of the things that I jokingly said was like, oh, my old job, we used to talk about The Walking Dead in the office. And they were like, oh, we all love talking about The Walking Dead. And then this episode aired in the next morning. Oh my God. Everyone's just sitting there like, holy fuck. And then one lady was like, I just can't stop thinking about Glenn's wee eye. It just really made me laugh. I was like, yeah, it's pretty disturbing, isn't it? Right. It was just such a weird start to this job. So, yeah, I watched it. Yeah. Two guys got brutally beaten. That was awful. Anyway, where's the coffee machine?

[01:24:30] I don't really like, oh, awful, awful. At the conventions, well, JDM came to Walker Stucker the week after this aired. And he had a 4,000 seat panel and I got to co-moderate it. And he was backstage psyching himself up, you know, like you might imagine. Just like Negan. Yeah. He's like, I own it. Any stage I'm on.

[01:24:55] And we went out there and I cracked a couple of jokes. He said, yeah, I knew such and such right off the bat. And I'm like, yeah, right off the bat. And people laughed. And he looked over at me like, I'm the one that's supposed to be making the jokes here. I'm like, sorry. It was a good panel though. It was like, I think he was a little worried that everyone was going to hate him. But they were, no, they were jazzed to have him there.

[01:25:20] And then afterwards, did he like drag you into the green room and then like force you to chop another panelist's arm off and stuff like that? And just kind of fuck with you for a bit. Ask for a Sharpie almost immediately after the panel. Then I had the worst panel of my whole panel moderating career after this. It was with Tara. What's her name? Alana Masterson, Lauren Cohan.

[01:25:45] I forget who else, but they were really emotionally fucked up because of this. And also James was supposed to moderate the panel and he wasn't showing up. So I'm usually prepared and I wasn't. And oh yeah, Josh McDermott was there. And he just was like, let's go. Let's go. Come on. We need to go out and they just walked out without being introduced. And I had, we had this contestant that had won a chance to co-moderate a panel.

[01:26:13] So she came out with me and she had these questions and she, she asked a question about something about that made Maggie seem like a bad person for being out there while she was pregnant or something. And Lauren Cohan did not want to hear it. And she, they like sort of turned their back on us. And it was just all kinds of weird and awful. And, and, uh, Alana Masterson just started pointing at people taking questions from the audience and ignoring us.

[01:26:40] And then the girl who won the contest showed me another question and it looked like it could be kind of offensive. She's like, should I ask this one? And I'm like, I think we should just let them do the panel themselves. Was this Atlanta or was this a different city? Atlanta. It was Atlanta. Yeah. Yeah. It was October. Yeah. That was, that was rough, man. That one sticks out of my mind. I wish I'd taken a little bit more charge. And I think, um, Lauren Cohan didn't realize all those circumstances.

[01:27:09] And she was like, why, why does this feel so chaotic? Why are you, uh, more prepared? Why, why did we get an introduction? And I'm like, yeah, I should have fucking stepped up to the plate a little bit better, but it was all just crazy. I, yeah, I don't know. I think they could have conducted themselves a bit more professionally. Like, I don't know. I have, I've, I've, I've, I've have sympathy for you guys in that situation. Cause that's, it must've been a weird shift. It was weird in all kinds of ways. For the cast as well, I suppose. Yeah, it was. You could tell. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

[01:27:39] Well, but anyway, I mean, that was like, I just want to say that there were so many highs and that was just the one that stuck out as the hardest, but it was, there's so many great moments and times with that whole thing. Anyway. Definitely. Okay. My notes, um, uh, as we cover the next two seasons worth of this, I think I'm just going to be thinking of Negan and Rick on that hill at the end. And of season eight, when Rick cuts Negan's throat. And, uh, I kind of wish we could just skip right to that.

[01:28:10] I mean, we could. Well, we got to at least do the kingdom, right? Yeah. That's going to be delightful. I'll play it for that. Uh, the title, the day will come when you won't be is a quote from season one, episode six, TS 19, where Dr. Jenner just punched in the code to open the door of the CDC and let them out before it blows up. And he goes, there's your chance. Take it. And Rick goes, I'm grateful. And Jenner says the day will come when you won't be.

[01:28:38] It is, I think the best named episode of a TV show. It's such a good callback. And I think it's so accurate because this is probably the first day where they really are not. They're like, I wish we'd blown up at any point. Yeah. If I was them, I'd be like, you know what? At least Jackie went out with a bottle of wine. Like, you know what I mean? Like she had, her girl knew what was up. Um, yeah, I, I really do enjoy the title. I think that's very, very good. Yeah. Uh, last note.

[01:29:07] I think that losing viewers over this scared the writers because after it, I think only that other fan favorites had plot armor. Uh, like when Andrew Lincoln decided to leave the show, instead of killing Rick off, he got taken away in the helicopter. When Danai Gurira decided to leave, Michonne went off looking for Rick, which I'm glad because then we got the ones who live. So good.

[01:29:29] Um, Daryl and Carol are the other two obvious ones, but I was trying to think of who else maybe, I mean, we know who lived Ezekiel, Jerry, Aaron, Gabriel, Judith, I think clearly had plot armor and always will. Um, but then I'm thinking of who died, Spencer, Gregory. Trying to think of who else died in the lineup. It's really just Rosita, isn't it? Yeah. And that, I feel like that almost doesn't count because it was the series finale and the actress asked for it. I feel like she did help plot upper armor until then.

[01:29:59] Sasha dies too, right? Sasha. That's probably a big one, but she went off to do Star Trek. Yeah. So if she hadn't gotten that role, I don't know if like, I don't know if plot armor counts if the actor decides to leave maybe, but Tom Payne's another one, right? Jesus, he decided to leave. Um, the ones that were the hardest for me that aren't in this category have decided to leave. Enid and even Tara a little bit. Henry was hard for me. I know not for anybody else. And Sadiq.

[01:30:29] Yeah. Sadiq, man. That was a rough. And the biggest tragedy of all, Lance Hornsby. Oh, fuck, man. Why'd you bring that up? Fuck you. I don't come into your house and talk about your shit. I think the show got its, what was it Ben said earlier that I really enjoyed? Testicular fortitude back in season nine with the heads on pikes. I think that was a good. That's a big one. Much as I hated the deaths, it felt like they knew how to do it right that time around.

[01:30:58] It didn't feel gratuitous. It was Ezekiel in the comics though. So they did scale it back. I wondered if they still had Rick, if they would have gotten rid of Ezekiel. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe so. I think Rick going has that butterfly effect. Like I wondered, I had a whole thing where I was like, Ezekiel's going to get Rick's death and didn't. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. It's just a real quick funny moment that I had, if you don't mind, with Kari Payton last year. I did a solo panel with Kari Payton last year. Oh, fun.

[01:31:27] And he's such an amazing guy. I was so excited to do that panel. And he made me feel so bad because I brought up on the panel. I was like, so I wonder where everybody is because we know Ezekiel survived. And he's like, hold on. Is there anybody in the audience who hasn't seen the show to the end yet? And one person put up their hand and Kari immediately just looked at me and gave me the stink eye. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. He's like, spoilers, my man. Spoilers, my man. I'm like, it's been years.

[01:31:56] It has literally been four years. He and I are on the same page about Negan, by the way. I saw him on a panel going, you know what? Negan hasn't fully redeemed himself because he never apologized for coercing all those women with sleeping with him. And I went backstage and I was like, I just wanted to say right on. And he's like, oh, hey, I remember you. And I'm like, right on, man. But then I'm pretty sure because Ezekiel calls him on that in season 11.

[01:32:24] And it seemed like they were sort of trying to sweep it under the rug before that. But I wonder if Kari Payton asked the writers to put that in there or something. We've covered quite a lot of the IMDb stuff, such as the title of the episode. I mentioned earlier, it was actually Greg Nicotero that tried to convince AMC that they should air the premiere without the inclusion of commercials. And AMC obviously declined. First time that JDM, Tom Payne, Austin Emilio and Xander Berkeley are credited as series regulars.

[01:32:54] The number four on the bottom of Negan's bat, Lucille, indicates that it is a 34 inch bat. I'm sure many people who've played ball actually know that. The first footage from this episode debuted on July 21st, 2016 at San Diego Comic-Con. So almost exactly 10 years ago. Oh, I'd forgotten this. A few days before this aired, Maggie's full death scene leaked online. I do remember that happening, actually. Oh, wow. No way. I didn't know that. Yeah.

[01:33:24] Just before Negan hits Abraham, Abraham gives Sasha's peace sign towards her. Glenn's death scene in the comic was inked after Steven Yeun was cast in the TV show. Robert Kirkman states Glenn was actually the first death scene in the comic that happened after the person was cast. What did Steven Yeun do to Robert Kirkman? He pissed him off so much. Michael Kudlitz revealed in an interview with Entertainment Tonight that he and Steven Yeun

[01:33:49] both found out in July 2015 that their characters were going to be killed, but they weren't told if it would be in the finale or the premiere. At the time, the showrunner wasn't sure where to insert their deaths, only knew that it would happen in one of the two episodes. Steven Yeun knew how iconic Glenn's death was in the comics and didn't want anyone to take that death from him. The scene where Negan returns with Rick to the group and tells him to cut Carl's arm off

[01:34:15] mirrors the biblical story of how God tested Abraham's obedience by asking him to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, Genesis 22, 2-19. God stops Abraham just before he goes through with it, saying, Now I know that you fear God. This is the same tattoo that Negan uses with Rick to exact obedience, putting himself in the role of God. This next one made me laugh, because I'm a child. After Negan smashes in Abraham's head with Lucille, he leans back a little and holds the baseball bat in such a manner that it looks like an oversized phallic symbol.

[01:34:45] Just say a penis. This is a subtle reference to the comics, where Negan repeatedly says that killing gives him a hard-on, something they probably couldn't have him say in the TV series. Writers worked around the clock trying to create alternate ways to impact the show without killing off Glenn. Ultimately, Robert Kirkman decided Glenn needed to die, stating that his death affects a great number of stories and a great number of characters moving forward. So it was kind of essential that that part of the scene at least remained intact, unfortunately.

[01:35:15] This concludes the Something to Fear story arc and starts the What Comes After story arc. And timeline-wise, this is day 618. It was May 3rd, 2012. So in real time, 14 years ago. Almost. We keep almost being there, like May, June, July. We keep almost getting the anniversaries, but not quite. But yeah, that's it. The lineup has happened, and that is the trivia and timeline for you this week. No Carl countdown? Oh, I was too depressed. No, that's okay. We've had enough. We've had enough.

[01:35:46] It'll be about four weeks, I would imagine. But somehow that takes a season and a half. That's right. Good luck, everyone. We've got a while. All right. Only on The Walking Dead would most people's favorite character get beaten to death on screen in gory detail. That's not funny, but I think it would only happen on The Walking Dead. Only on The Walking Dead would you be put off salami and hamburger in the same episode. I don't know. I'm vegan now.

[01:36:14] I don't know if I buy that only would it happen in The Walking Dead, because we've seen some brutal shit from The Boys. Oh, yeah. That's a good point. I've never watched The Boys. It's fucking disgusting. Yeah. Really? Do you think The Walking Dead set the tone for it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it took it to another level. Absolutely. No question. Makes me want to puke. But I love that show.

[01:37:20] Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens. The people he kills get up and tip. Are they slow moving, Chief? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is a Walking Dead cast news update. All right. So, Entertainment Weekly talked with JDM and Lauren Cohan about Dead City Season 3. JDM said, I'm just going to say what the two of them said. He said, we needed this relationship to move on between Maggie and Negan, and I was desperate for it.

[01:37:49] Negan kept doing things like saving her, saving her kid, and yet she just hated me. I think we all were ready to move on. It's not just going to be, I'm going to kill you when I get the chance, you know? Lauren Cohan said, I wish he was dead. No, I'm just kidding. She said, it's the biggest turning over of a new leaf for Maggie and Negan that there's ever been because they're going to work together. It's been sort of hinted at, strive for, maybe attempted, and this is the first time it's legitimately happening.

[01:38:16] If I'm not going to kill him, I got to live with him, and I have to see him for who he really is. And that involves a lot of healing for both their relationship and for her personally. The thing that's different this year is her vulnerability of saying, I need your help. And that's something she's never tried with him. She's coerced him and manipulated him into helping her, and he's done it either knowingly or unknowingly to repay debt. But this is the first time that she's led with more openness with him.

[01:38:44] Jeff, Scott, and myself were all speaking about our hopes for season three. We knew we wanted Maggie and Negan to be together. We knew we wanted to bury the hatchet. And JDM says, there's a scene in the first episode where I'm like, fuck, it's the first time I've ever seen you smile. And it's true. It was the first time that we had a scene that didn't end with her threatening my life or stabbing me or something. It was a pleasant change. What does that, how does that make you guys feel? Because it's very disturbing for me.

[01:39:16] I don't think they're going to bang Jason. I think you're okay. No, I don't think they are either. They're not going to ship the two characters together. I feel like. No, I don't think so. No. I think Maggie will get a love interest. I think for her to move on, there needs to be something shifting in that direction. And I wonder if there's going to be a love interest introduced because that would move the story forward a little bit. And to be fair to our girl, it has been a long time. I would say the best thing is if she wants to live in New York, that Negan can go live

[01:39:45] in California. Are you offering to put him up, Jason? Sure. Maybe we could do the reverse. Yeah. All right. Let's move on to Listermo's Grunts. Should we go Ben, Lucy, me? Sure. So the first piece of feedback comes from Christine Hart.

[01:40:13] And she says, I was in tears with this. Bloody powerful. Yeah. That's how a lot of people felt. Right. Well, Andy Fisher says, it still grosses me out. Are there any other TV shows, movies that show main characters getting killed in such a graphic way? Saw and The Boys come to mind. Some Game of Thrones. Invincible does. It's just as graphic as The Boys. It's a cartoon, but I can't believe it sometimes. Kirkman.

[01:40:43] Steve Brown said, I didn't hear the title of the episode spoken. Maybe I missed it in my voicemail. And Rachel Teal Edwards answered, you have to go all the way back to the CDC in season one finale for that. Which is such. Thanks, Rachel. That's such a crazy callback, too, but such a well-placed callback, like you said, too. It's so good. Yeah. Carly says, watching that episode was brutal. Decided to watch it because I thought that maybe it wasn't as gut-wrenching an experience as I remembered. Nope. It was worse.

[01:41:11] Now I know I will never watch that episode again. She said, if this isn't the tone you want for the podcast, feel free to leave it out. I've heard you say that you don't want to be too negative. That's just for me. Well, did I even say that personally? Because if I did, I failed. But no, no. That comment is welcome. Lisa Edmondson Walker says, This is only the second time I've watched this episode and I ugly cried again. Even knowing the double deaths and who it would be, watching the devastation of the survivors broke my heart all over again.

[01:41:39] It's really hard not to hate Negan regardless of what he's done since the lineup. His sadistic glee in strutting around as he destroyed them was sickening to watch again. Dead City will be even harder to watch having just seen this episode again. Oof. Oof. Danielle DeMint-Jo says, My second favorite episode after No Sanctuary. There you go. I mean, even the person who said I was in tears, bloody powerful, that could be from someone who thought it was a great episode or who didn't like it at all. But it sounds like she thought it was a good episode. Anyway, Danielle,

[01:42:09] My second favorite episode after No Sanctuary. It's brutal and horrifying and sad and dark, literally and figuratively. But it's also so, so beautiful. The writing, the performances, the lighting, the camera work, the music, everything is so good. It's a piece of cinema which never gets its flowers because of the storyline, which is a shame. You can feel how invested everyone is in making this episode impactful and moving, especially Andy Lincoln and JDM. The goal is to bring the audience into the terror our group of survivors was experiencing

[01:42:39] and get them invested in bringing down Negan. It succeeded. Well said. Yeah. Danielle and Ben are on a similar vibe there. I love it. I got somebody else who feels like this episode is high in the pecking order. I do too. I think it's a really good one. Yeah. Rebecca Cantu Davidson, the most emotionally exhausting episode ever. I don't think I've ever cried as hard in my life as I did during this episode, and I've been through some shit.

[01:43:06] But Abraham and Glenn, no. I remember being so angry, so sad, and in such disbelief. I refuse to believe it, but Negan did do that. He finally broke Rick. A million years later, I don't think I've recovered. I think I've kept watching this show, waiting for Ashton Kutcher to come out and tell us we've been pumped. But no, it happened, and as an audience, we had to adjust. So many people couldn't, but I'm glad I kept on.

[01:43:32] I've re-watched these episodes several times, and I get angry and sad every time. Well said.

[01:44:07] I love Rebecca. G. Johnson says, On another note, every time I see Preggo Maggie now, I say to myself, that damn kid in her is going to be an annoying piece of shit. LOL. The next season or two will be boring, but this episode and the finale of the last season are a fire sequence to me. Nice. I like that. Maria Pereira-Garnata says, I'm a few episodes behind on the re-watch, but I wanted to comment on this episode. This is the first episode I watched in real time. Wow. I guess you binged it up till this point. Yeah.

[01:44:36] When others were jumping out, I jumped in. I saw the nonstop previews of the lineup on TV and decided to jump in, and I binged season one through six. Wow. So it was kind of the lineup that got her interested. During the time everyone was waiting for what happened in the lineup. I caught up about two weeks before this one aired. The upside of binging was that I knew Glenn had not died under the dumpster since he was in the lineup. I had no idea who was going to die, much less that we could lose two characters in such a brutal way. It was a devastating episode.

[01:45:06] Once I got to this episode and the next ones, I felt a bit down because I had to wait and watch episode by episode and it started dragging. Yeah, this is a bad time to have to get used to that. Especially after binging, it slowed down to a crawl. Nonetheless, I stayed and continued to the end. Glad you did, Maria. Yeah. Yeah. Megan Dively Lehman. I still think they made a mistake by holding this episode as the next season opener because there was too much opportunity for leaks during the summer months.

[01:45:33] I remember that I read what sounded like a pretty legitimate spoiler synopsis for how this episode went. Of course, there were lots of spoilers and fan theories circulating around at the time, so there was no guarantee that was the correct one. But it was reported to be legit and I just had a feeling. So I sort of steeled for the double deaths.

[01:45:52] That didn't stop me from having all the feelings when it actually happened and I had a sickening gut reaction in the first five, then 10, then 25 minutes of the episode as I realized it was all coming true. So that meant I knew what was coming next.

[01:46:37] Nick. Nick. Nick. Nick. Nick. We loved him. But I know Rick and the others have inner strength Negan is unaware of, even though they are momentarily broken. The Day Will Come When You Won't Be was ranked third out of 177 in Walking Dead episode rankings.

[01:46:58] It's in between number two, Clear, where my fourth favorite character Morgan reunited with Rick after the pilot, and number four, Beside the Dying Fire, season two finale, Jason versus Herschel's Magic Shotgun. Do you all agree with this placement and it being compared to Clear and Beside the Dying Fire? I can see that. Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. Do you think there are Walking Dead viewers who believe having humanity in the apocalypse is a weakness to the point that even with what Negan does in this episode, they stand by that argument?

[01:47:27] I just see a pattern between those who defend Shane, even though he almost raped Laurie, and Carol, even though she lied to Tyrese about Karen and David, and mock Dale and Tyrese and those who defend Negan and mock Rick and Ezekiel. Did Carol lie to Tyrese? I don't remember. Ben, do you think this last part connects to the direction the spin-off is going for season three, that lack of humanity is a commodity in the apocalypse more valuable than humanity?

[01:47:56] Signing off is Rinaldi, not Began, that autocorrect is causing problems again, not Negan. RIP Abraham Ford, RIP Glenry, PS. Thank you for getting through the big one, Jason and Lucy. Thank you for helping listeners get through an emotionally difficult arc. Thanks, Ben, for leading the way with Dead City and for being willing to be a special guest on this episode. Yay, yay. Question for you there, Ben.

[01:48:16] Yeah, I don't know if I, but I still think humanity, while it's not in abundant resource in the apocalypse, is still a huge commodity. I think it still matters. So, I mean, in regards to his question, do I think, you know, connects with lack of humanity as a commodity? Yeah, I think it absolutely is. I think it's one of the things that's needed more than anything else.

[01:48:45] I don't find it as a weakness. I know there are people who can exploit it as a weakness, which we clearly saw with Negan in this episode. But it comes back to bite him in the ass. I mean, I think Negan's lack of humanity and willingness to terrorize innocent people and to create an environment of fear that causes the people around him to follow him and do what he says can be a temporary strength.

[01:49:14] But I think ultimately it just causes a rebellion, which it does with Negan. And I hope the same thing's going to happen in the real world in one way or another. I feel like this kind of domination can only go so far, I hope. I still hold on to the idea that humanity means caring about other people. And so you work together and you build your future together. Don't let assholes take over. Yeah.

[01:49:44] I mean, and even to that point, too, it became such a detriment to Negan as well. But he himself, even through the course of Dead City, has found humanity in himself. So he's even found that. Right. Amber Lobo says, so we finally got to the deaths and I finally know firsthand just how bad it was. And it was so much worse. I hated everything about this episode.

[01:50:11] I can completely understand why so many people stopped watching at this part. Negan reminds me of a bunch of Game of Thrones characters rolled together. The feeling of hopelessness was suffocating me. We've seen some villain. Maybe we didn't warn you enough, Amber. We've seen some villains and enemies in the show, but nothing like this. I miss when the Zeds and the elements were the biggest threat. Losing Abraham was rough. Losing Glenn was terrible. But the absolute sadistic behavior that Negan puts out might be too much for me.

[01:50:41] I'm worried about all the living people left in our group, Maggie and Daryl, to start off with. But I'm semi-aware of their future in this universe, so I'm not panicking. I haven't read the comics, so I'm not aware of how things happen in there. But this episode felt unnecessarily brutal to me. I will keep watching. I do want to see this through. But I won't deny that this entire episode and last episode were borderline too much for me. And as I said already, I really understand why other people would have stopped watching at this point.

[01:51:09] Also, what Negan did to Carl and Rick, trying to make Rick cut off Carl's arm? Nope. I think it's too much, too brutal. Hope everyone is well. Take care. I mean, Amber, you know, you said spoilers are okay. So just imagine Negan in a cell for many years. I was just thinking that too. Like, you reading that piece of feedback from Amber, I was like, oh, this is her first time watching. I hope we didn't spoil too much. Oh, yeah. She's okay with spoilers. Yeah, just...

[01:51:38] I feel like Amber's been part of the furniture of this rewatch so much, I always forget. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're doing this the first time. Oh, you're brave. All right. Here is a call from Robin. Robin. Hey, y'all. It's me, Robin. I don't have anything particularly profound to say about 15 and 16. Of all the times that I've watched the Walking Dead episodes over again, those are two, these are two that I have never watched again. And I will never watch them again.

[01:52:08] After seeing them for the rewatch, I, along with many others, actually almost stopped watching The Walking Dead afterwards. And it wasn't because of heartbreak over losing Glenn or any of the reasons that a lot of people gave it. It was because it's just too much. Negan is too much. The goriness of the deaths is too much. The relentlessness of Negan is too much.

[01:52:36] His taunting, the number of times that he hits them over and over and over again. It's, it's, I can watch all the Walker stuff and it never bothers me because that's stuff that hopefully will never happen in our world. Although the CDC does have some guidelines on their website. But I can't watch the things that are realistic that could actually really happen, that actually do really happen.

[01:53:05] And I had a hard time actually getting through it this time. Like I did the first, well, the first time, not so much because I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what was going to happen. So I was horrified, but sort of in that way that you are when you see a poisonous snake or something and you know you should run, but you can't stop staring at it. But this time though, I just, I'm really shocked at how much I had forgotten about it.

[01:53:34] I guess I didn't forget. I guess I put it out of my mind, but it's just, it's awful. He's awful. He's, there's nothing even remotely redeeming about him. I admire Abraham so much for standing up to him, you know, as tall as he could and looking him straight in the eye. I know that he had Abraham pegged right from the beginning, that that's who he was going to get. And he got Glenn because Glenn jumped out to try to save Maggie.

[01:54:03] Just the stuff that he did to Rick with Carl and Carl's, you know, Carl, little Carl glaring out of his one eye, being brave and strong. And Negan saying, lighten up kid, you could at least cry a little bit. I did, I did chuckle at that a little bit, but you know what he did to Rick threatening Carl like that.

[01:54:26] And it's just the part that I was really interested in that, that I had forgotten about was how each person reacts in the lineup. And some people will look straight, look him straight in the eye and some people don't. I was really also intrigued by Rosita just shuts down. She's just staring the whole time. You know, just, you know, I think to me, I don't know.

[01:54:56] So anyway, that's my profound thoughts on episode 16. I did just, I made it, I made it through. You did it, Robin. We'll talk soon. Bye, y'all. We decided we're going to cover this one again next week. So watch it one more time. It's called The Podcast Will Come When You Want.

[01:55:24] No, Robin, that was amazing. And I really, I didn't need to be profound, even though I thought it was very thoughtful, but just getting your feelings on it. I really felt that. So thank you for calling. That would be such an amazing Groundhog Day joke to do a podcast the second week in a row. Reviewing the same episode every time. Reviewing the same episode, but doing it completely different. Right.

[01:55:49] There's a pod called The Worst Idea of All Time, where it's Australian, and they watch the same bad movie every week for a year and record it. And the year I listened to it was Sex and the City 2, and it was like these guys were going fucking crazy. It was so funny because they were all comedians and they came up with all these like batshit theories of stuff. Like Brady was the rat king of New York City. Like there was all this stuff happening in it. But I think they stopped. I think this was like first wave of pods.

[01:56:19] But I think the first season they did Grown Ups 2. Anyway, it was quite something. I think we would lose our minds after about two weeks. I'm pretty sure the bald move guys, Jim and Aaron, under false names, started a podcast about Riverdale, the Archie show. But they would not watch it. They would just read like the blurbs or something and pretend to have seen it and do a podcast. That's fantastic. That's such a good idea too.

[01:56:49] To one of Robin's points with Glenn is, because we didn't really talk about this during the episode, do we think Glenn's fate was sealed already? Or do we think, because she said that Glenn met his fate because he stood up for Maggie. But I think, is Daryl the one responsible for Glenn's death? I've shifted. I think Glenn seals his own fate. And there's another listener who's just written in who agrees with me.

[01:57:19] I don't think Daryl's as much to blame as I first thought he was. Okay. All right. I think Negan reads the room wrong the first. I think Abraham's a mistake and I think Negan knows it. I don't think he gets the reaction he's hoping for there. But I don't know. Your mileage may vary. I'm possibly wrong. I'm never wrong. I'm never wrong. All right. So Stephen Fletcher. Stephen says,

[01:57:43] I think this may have been the only episode in the UK to get an early release and essentially air the same time as the US. I think I remember that too. I remember it was released at 2 a.m. Either exactly the same time it was airing in the US or maybe just before or after. To spare you a super ludicrously long review, I thought I'd mainly share my feelings about whether or not Negan was always going to kill Glenn too. Oh, here we go.

[01:58:09] My reading of it has always been this since I first saw this episode. Much as I hate Negan and felt tired of him after a while, I can't deny he's a smart guy. I imagined before he stepped out of the RV, he intended to kill more than one person. He just needed somebody to give him a reason to kill the second person. And I think he always intended to manipulate the situation to that end. I agree with the part of the theory read out,

[01:58:34] read out the podcast for episode 615 that he said once Glenn reacted to Maggie getting threatened, that sadly sealed his fate there and then. I also feel that when Negan is taunting Rosita, he's doing it to get a reaction from someone in the group. It may be giving Negan too much credit to say he knew Daryl specifically would go for him, but I think he at least knew somebody in the group would be a hothead. I imagine the way Negan sees it, this is the best way he can be sadistically and psychologically,

[01:59:03] he can sadistically and psychologically torture the group. It's more impactful than just evening the score, evening the score with the number of saviors that Rick's group had killed. I want to say I'm not sharing this just to completely absolve Daryl from any blame for Glenn's death. It's just my interpretation of the scene. Also wanted to say I still remember the podcast you guys originally did for this episode. Am I right in saying it's the only episode you did with no opening theme?

[01:59:33] There's something about this episode of the show that felt so different compared to all the others before and after it, and even the podcast you guys did reflected that. I didn't even take notice that there's no opening in this episode. You're talking about the podcast. Oh, yeah. That's the only one that we did with no opening theme. And I remember it caught Karen off guard. I just started and she's like, Oh, we're just starting.

[01:59:56] But it just felt like it needed a little sort of reverence or something because it was so awful at the time. And now I didn't do it this time because it's been so long, but this episode hit me harder than I thought it was going to watching it now. And as far as everything about, you know, was he always intending to kill two people? And did he clock that Abraham wasn't the right one and all that? To me,

[02:00:24] that just feels like similar energy to when people want characters to be related. Maybe that's his son or his father or secret, this and that. Because what we saw in the episode seems like enough to me. Negan is there trying to break this group and he's humiliating them. And he does what the saviors always do, kill one person just to show them who's in charge. And it didn't work. Daryl fought back. So he killed another person there. See, I really want you to know,

[02:00:53] I told you the first ones were free, but if you do it again, this is what's going to happen. It just seems like that there doesn't need to be anything more than that to me. But I watched again, trying to see if I could see anything else. And to me, it just seemed like that was the case, but everybody has their own opinions. Billy Thompson says, hello, hello. Hope you guys are well. I had a real tough time rewatching this. Just so brutal. They really don't hold back and making the audience feel just as psychologically broken as our group.

[02:01:23] Just seeing it happen really does that. The acting in this episode is absolutely top tier. Andrew should absolutely, should have absolutely won something for his performance. You could see this difference in his face when Negan had broken him. The look Negan was trying to get out of Rick was so brilliantly portrayed. So hats off to Lincoln. Seeing Glenn's death absolutely rips me apart every time. He will forever, he will be forever one of my favorite characters. Looking back on the last couple of seasons, I do wish we got more from him, but seeing the flashbacks for the characters, which I loved,

[02:01:51] reminds us just how integral Glenn was to, was especially early on. After rewatching the scene, it makes me think Dead City is even more stupid than I kind of thought it was. There's just no way some of the stuff that happens in that series would happen. I just don't believe it. Suck my nuts. Hell yeah, Abe. Completely himself right up until the end. He didn't let Negan take that from him. What I never realized, which baffles me, is that Abe does their finger sign to Sasha right before it happens. Wow, that got me real bad.

[02:02:18] Negan is incredibly smart in the way he manipulates his victims. Everything in this episode just seems so calculated from him. This is probably why it's such a slog to get through these next two seasons, for most of it, from my memory. It really does feel like there's no hope at all, although it was great to see some of the group at the end of this episode still have some fight. I'm sure I'll watch this episode again in my lifetime, because apparently I love torturing myself, but I won't be looking forward to it. Crying emoji. Crying laughing emoji. Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts. Thanks, guys. Bye.

[02:02:48] Bye, Billy. Bye. Thanks, Billy. Rachel Teal Edwards says, for basically a normal length episode, this felt very long. They really drag out the big reveal, which is just mean, and it's such a slow pace getting there. I watched this with my brother when it aired, and we were all just sitting on the edge of our seats, going, get to it already, will ya? Yeah. I can't believe we had to wait seven months for this. He stopped watching after this episode. I had tears in my eyes after the killings, but not for the deaths,

[02:03:18] more for the woman who had to watch their loves die in this way. Though I did have a sick feeling in my gut re-watching the beatings. I know I'm in the minority, but I was more sad to lose Abraham than Glenn. Glenn is like vanilla or chicken fingers. Nothing interesting or exciting, but dependable. Just nice to know they're there in a pinch. Abraham was always one of my favorites though. Well, good. I'm glad someone, yeah, is more. And what's wrong with chicken fingers? I was literally just thinking I'm quite hungry now. They're just not.

[02:03:48] I'm not thinking about salami anymore, and now I want some chicken fingers. And I prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. But do you like Abraham better too? No, you like Abraham better. See, it all makes sense. Yeah. Oh, side note, literally my least favorite part of the episode this time is when fucking Dwight rushes in after Daryl is already subdued by other men, and pointing Daryl's own crossbow at him. Want me to do it? Me too. It's like, what? Get out of here, you. He looks like a fucking idiot trying to wield that crossbow.

[02:04:18] Oh, wow. You're such a fucking tough guy, Dwight, trying to kill the dude when he's being held down by stronger men than you. Why was he so late to the scene? Jerking off in the woods to the sound of Negan's voice, probably. God, I fucking hate him. That's awesome. All right. Sorry, I'm such a child. All right. Well, aside from all this, I actually found myself smiling at Negan's shenanigans. He's got guts, not a little bitch like someone I know. I laughed out loud. That's so funny.

[02:04:47] That was hilarious. It makes me want to skip ahead and read this part of the comic books. He's going to be fun to watch for a while, maybe. I don't know. Okay. I'm rewatching as I write this, and I think part of the slow fucking pace of this episode is just that Negan is so confident in control that he doesn't have to rush anything. Yeah, totally. Yeah. The pacing is all part of it too. He likes taking his sweet time and dragging out the torture. Rushing would be tacky and weak and no fun at all. Like you said last week, Jason, he fucking loves this.

[02:05:16] You were really incensed a few times by the way, and that was really fun to listen to. I'm glad. I know I get a little intense about this stuff. Sorry guys. Now that I know how the whole story unfolds, I think it's going to be a lot easier to watch the next two seasons. I'm sure it'll still go on for too long, and I'll probably always believe the powers that be were really misguided and disrespectful to all the super fans of the show who stuck with it, making us watch our heroes get beat to shit for two years. But I know the timeline now, and that it's relentless for a long while, and most importantly,

[02:05:46] that eventually the show gets back to the amazing storytelling that made us all fall in love with it. Absolutely. So yeah, all this to say, I'm excited to rewatch with fresh eyes and a different perspective. Welcome to a brand new beginning, you sorry shits. I bet that's how he spoke to his baseball team. Yes. Exactly. Same line. That was great, Rachel. You're outdoing yourself there. Love it. All right. Here's from Renee. I bet you Renee did not like this one.

[02:06:16] Hiya, Jason, Lucy, and Ben. Okay. This is the episode we have all been patiently not waiting for. I watched this episode when it first aired, but I realized that I blocked out so many things because it was just that traumatic. And I know people talk about Negan's charisma and his jokes, but for me, none of that works.

[02:06:43] The comedy feels like a mask hiding a tyrant. That man didn't just kill Abraham and Glenn. He terrorized everyone first. That man laughed and cracked jokes. He humiliated them. And then he kept going and going. Watching Glenn's eye pop out while Negan stood there making jokes was so horrific. I literally had to cover my ears and look away.

[02:07:12] The historical parallels in this episode were loud. Maybe not everyone sees them the same way, but I do not think it was accidental. The kneeling, the humiliation, the ownership language speak when you're spoken to. You're mine. You can have a good life as long as you produce for me. That is forced submission. It all felt very intentional.

[02:07:41] Whether it makes people think of slavery, dictatorships, concentration camps, or other systems of oppression, the point was domination. Negan wasn't just trying to kill people. He was trying to break them. But make no mistake, Rick and the crew bent, but they did not break. And then that fool had the audacity to act shock when Rick told him,

[02:08:11] I'm going to kill you. I wish Rick would have killed him. It's like, sir, what did you think was going to happen? You murdered his family in front of him. You threatened his son and then tried to force him to cut his son's arm off. The audacity of you, fool. Did you guys catch Michonne shaking her head at Rick? Like she was saying, baby, please just survive this. We're going to deal with him later. And did. That moment broke my heart.

[02:08:39] And Abraham throwing up the deuces to Sasha. That scene was so sad. Although I didn't like Sasha and Abraham's relationship. That scene was devastating. Now I know people love Negan, but I genuinely do not get it. JDM is fantastic. But Negan, the character, absolutely not. To me, he's Ramsey Bolton 2.0 with a baseball bat. He's a bully wrapped in brabado.

[02:09:07] A dictator pretending to be a freaking leader. That man has some serious health to skelter mental issues. And I'm not trying to minimize mental issues because I deal with anxiety. But I'm talking about somebody who enjoys cruelty just because. Who enjoys controlling people and trying to break them. He's sadistic. And it's like, Negan, listen, Linda, Linda. If you put your hands on Rick Grimes, again,

[02:09:36] me and all of my ancestors are going to come through that TV and we're going to whoop your ass. How about that? Only on the walking dead would somebody bash a woman's husband's skull in with a baseball bat and then expect us to believe they could eventually work together. Get the freak out of here. That is never happening in real life. Peace and love. Bye. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:10:06] That was awesome. Nicely put, Renee. We're speaking the same language here. That's fair. That was fantastic. Whether it's listening to the podcast or guest starring on the podcast, I love Renee's voicemail. Yeah. She's great. They're always so great. Just so great. We're so lucky to know her. Mm-hmm. All right. Casey from Detroit. Hello, Jason, Lucy, and Ben. First off, I've been loving the rewatch. I've been listening along

[02:10:35] even though this is my first time writing in for The Walking Dead. I'm one of those listeners who found the podcast after the show had already aired, so it's been really interesting hearing your current takes compared to the original coverage. I'm glad I get to experience this rewatch in real time with all of you. Welcome. Yeah. At this point in the original run, Karen was still your co-host, Jason. When I first listened to the original 7-1 coverage, season 7, episode 1 coverage, I had a feeling Karen probably wasn't going

[02:11:05] to be sticking around much longer. Oh. But I'm really glad Lucy eventually stepped in. Oh, thank you, Casey. You're an amazing co-host, and Jason, shout out to you for keeping a podcast network going strong for almost two decades. Cheers. I completely agree. Oh, thank you. Now, on to the episode. I never understood the hate for certain aspects of season 6, episode 16, and season 7, episode 1.

[02:11:33] Not only is episode 1 in my top 5 favorite episodes of the series, mine too, I think 6, 16, and 7, 1 together are the greatest series finale and premiere combination The Walking Dead ever produced. Honestly, I'd put them up against just about any finale premiere combo in television. I also never got the outage over the cliffhanger, outrage over the cliffhanger. The way people talked about it, you'd think television had never done a major season-ending cliffhanger before. That's been a staple

[02:12:03] of TV forever. More importantly, it worked. People spent months debating who died, making predictions, arguing online, and anxiously waiting for the premiere. Years later, we're still talking about it. What makes these episodes work for me isn't just the deaths. It's the introduction of Negan. By this point, Rick had beaten Shane, the Governor, Terminus, the Wolves, and even a massive herd. Every threat he's encountered eventually falls. Rick walks into

[02:12:33] season 6, episode 16 feeling invincible. Maybe not consciously, but every lesson the apocalypse has taught him says if he fights hard enough, he'll eventually win. Then he meets Negan. For the first time since waking up in that hospital, Rick is completely powerless. That's what makes the lineup so fascinating to me. Negan isn't just killing people, he's dismantling Rick Grimes in front of everyone he loves. Then, after Abraham dies, after Glenn dies, after seeing his family

[02:13:03] and community reduced to a lineup on their knees, Rick still looks Negan dead in the eye and says, I'm gonna kill you. That's my favorite moment of the episode. I love Negan's reaction. He smiles, but underneath that smile, I think there's genuine surprise. He expected fear. He expected surrender. Instead, he gets a man who has just lost everything and is still promising revenge. I think that's the moment Negan became obsessed with him.

[02:13:31] That's why he asks Simon for the hatchet. That's why he drags Rick into the RV. That's why he nearly makes him cut off Carl's arm. Negan isn't trying to kill Rick. He's trying to break him. He's trying to prove that resistance is pointless and that this is his world now. But what I love is that even after everything Negan does, he never actually gets what he wants. He wins the lineup. He wins the RV. He wins Alexandria. But he never gets Rick to accept his place. And that's why I think their relationship

[02:14:01] becomes the backbone of the next two seasons. What always stands out to me is that Negan doesn't personally involve himself with most communities. Simon handles much of Hilltop. Gavin handles the kingdom. Oceanside is largely Simon's mess. Negan is responsible for all of it as the leader, but Rick is different. Rick becomes personal. Negan wants to control him because Rick is the first leader he's encountered who refuses to stay beaten. The other reason the episode works so well

[02:14:31] is Maggie. The brutality is the point. We're supposed to hate it. By that point, Maggie has already lost Herschel and Beth. Glenn isn't just her husband. He's the love of her life, the father of her child, and the last member of her immediate family. Lauren Cohen absolutely sells that grief. She isn't just losing Glenn. She's watching her future disappear. Oh, God. That's feedback, man. It's so good. The audience spent years

[02:15:00] watching Glenn survive in possible situations. Atlanta, the well. Woodbury, the prison. Terminus, the dumpster. Every season condition us to believe Glenn would find a way out somehow. Then Negan takes that away. Maybe that's why I see these episodes differently than a lot of fans. I love this show. I've read the comics, watched the series countless times, and even when the adaptation goes in directions I wouldn't have chosen, I enjoy seeing how it tells

[02:15:29] its own version of the story. And maybe this is where I different from a lot of the fans, but I don't see the massive dip in quality that people talked about. Even season seven and eight work for me. Hell, season eight is in my top five seasons. I'm super excited to write in for these upcoming episodes. To me, it's all one story. A bunch of broken people trying to figure out who they are in a world overrun by the dead.

[02:15:59] So when I think about season six, episode 17, and season seven, episode one, I don't think about shock value. I think about two episodes that perfectly capture what The Walking Dead is about. Power, loss, survival, leadership, family, and hope. As I should probably stop here before I start dropping some of my Walking Dead hot takes that would send parts of the fandom into a complete uproar. I'll save those for another feedback email. Thanks for the podcast

[02:16:28] and all the rewatch coverage. That was a phenomenal piece of feedback. Casey, Casey. I'm voting Casey. Casey, 2020, whenever the next election is. Yeah, I mean, like I said, varied opinions from everybody and wonderful. Like, we're so lucky to have you guys listening along with this rewatch. Love it. I almost said rehash and sending in such great comments. We're so lucky to have you here with us in rehab.

[02:16:59] I mean, help us recover. No, my house. What? Thank you, Casey, and everybody else. And we got one more from good old Steve Brown. Oh, Steve. Hello, Walking Dead cast. This is Steve, and this is going to be for The Walking Dead, season seven, episode one. I'm pretty sure I have never watched season seven and eight since it aired. I can't believe I forgot. I love the way Jeffrey Dean Morgan delivers the two-word line, a hatchet? The chilling thing about this so far

[02:17:29] in the cold open is we still don't know who he killed. I notice in the credits now we have the and Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Oh, I was starting to get confused. He just told, Negan just told Rick to think about what just happened, so I think we're going to see the killing actually in flashback, aren't we? Yeah, now I see Rick's reliving the lineup, the Neil, yeah, the lineup in his memory. Oh, and now Rick's got to get the axe. Oh, they were that close to the bridge where Negan drove him back to where those the logs were burning. His body is hanging from the bridge still. I wonder if they

[02:17:58] reshot this eeny, meeny, miny, moe sequence. Just use like a different camera angle of it. Oh, and yeah, I'm sure Abraham was always going to be the one, the first one. Then we get the Negan lean. Oh, and just out of nowhere, just back to it and he starts hitting on Glenn. Oh, Rick, in case you didn't know, Negan wants you to bring him his axe. Oh, and now Rick's picturing what could still happen. Oh, so Negan saves him a couple times and he gives him back his axe or gives Negan his axe. Wait, yeah, the axe.

[02:18:28] Oh, so Negan wants Rick to look like he's been, like he's beaten. That's what, he says, you're not looking at me the right way. Oh, I think they've played this little game before. Simon, you got a pin? Yeah, and he throws it to Negan and now he's going to draw on Carl's arm, right? Oh, this has got to be tough for Rick. Not making a decision is a big decision, Negan says. Oh, and there it is. Rick's beaten. Oh, man. Oh, and they're taking Daryl because he's got guts. Okay, so Negan gives him a truck so that they can get back to Alexandria and that's, uh, wow. But it seems

[02:18:57] that they left in the RV also. They're close enough to the hilltop for Maggie to walk there by herself. Oh, now the vision of everyone sitting around for Sunday dinner. Oh, I forgot about Glenn holding a baby. Oh, whoo. That's the end. So, all right. On to episode two eventually. Mood change. I knew it. Um, we didn't, Steve didn't comment on Abraham or Glenn. I thought that was interesting. What happened, Steve? He's more worried about the RV. No, I'm joking. You black out. Thanks, Steve.

[02:19:32] All right. That is our show episode 709. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Ben, thank you for joining us. You were a great co-host. Of course. Thanks. Always fun. Also, super glad that you and Alex are doing Dead City. I think you are the perfect two to be doing that and I'm grateful that you guys still want to do that. I'm so glad that I made the choice to bring him in as a co-host because season one I did by myself just with rotating co-hosts. But it was such a great choice to bring him in as a co-host for season two and we rocked it.

[02:20:02] I love it. It was so much fun. Yeah, and it was fun to have him on for last week's episode and then you for this one. which comes out July 10th. Chris of Talking Dead Podcast will be joining me and Rich. We covered all of Ash vs. Evil Dead together and all the Evil Dead movies so we'll jump back on for this one and we'll have, I'm not sure when that episode will come out. We might have a week break in there somewhere and then Dead City

[02:20:32] premieres July 26th and Ben and Alex will be back to cover that. I'm actually going to an early screening of Evil Dead Rise or Evil Dead Burn 2 on July 7th. I'm looking forward to that. Nice. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about any of that, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there please check out our other podcasts. I want to keep on promoting Dragoncast because House of the Dragon is back and I haven't even watched the premiere yet but I heard it was good.

[02:21:01] You know how last year or two years ago when you guys were in Scotland we were like more like House of the Admin. It's so different. That's what I've received three great really good. Awesome. Great to hear. This episode is made possible, seriously made possible by Patreon supporters like Christy Baseman who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you to Christy. Christy gets ad free episodes of this podcast. All the other ones I do, you know, White

[02:21:28] Lotus, Yellow Jackets, Alien Earth, everything. Patreon exclusives occasionally like me and Randy and Damien are doing a music app coming up where we talk about our songs that we've gotten into over the past few years and we'll play a little bit from the songs and talk about them. So I'm very much looking forward to that. Good antidote to watching someone beat someone else to death while that. Yeah.

[02:21:59] All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bat, Christine Hart. That's bad. Sorry. Sorry. There are a bunch of ways to prevent crime that no one is talking about, like how wind direction can make your community more violent or peaceful and how GLP-1 meds could reduce felonies. This is Fighting Crime where we ask the big questions. What if we've been having the wrong

[02:22:28] conversations about crime? Two policies, ban the box and clean slate, don't seem to be helping even though they sounded like they should. or they would. I'm your host, Christina Quinn. I'm going across the country from prisons to universities, police chiefs to inmates, to look at the evidence and question everything we think we know about how to make America safer. Economists think a lot about how people respond to incentives. If we want to reduce crime and change behavior, we need to

[02:22:57] increase the costs or reduce the benefit. Join us as we figure out new ways to fight crime and be prepared to think differently. Fighting Crime. Listen or watch on Apple Podcasts, YouTube and Spotify. Lee C. Camp here. If you've been enjoying this show, I think you might enjoy my podcast, No Small Endeavor, produced by Great Feeling Studios and PRX. No Small Endeavor explores what it means to live a good life. We sit down with courageous, impassioned

[02:23:26] people like actor Martin Sheen or civil rights hero James Lawson to ask what it means to live a life worth living. Follow No Small Endeavor wherever you get your podcasts. Living a good life is no small endeavor and we would love to help.