714: TWD: Dead City S3E5 "Imperialis"

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[00:01:25] Wayfair, every style, every home. Hmm? Ah! Oh. I lost my wife. Long time ago. All this happened. I try not to think about it, but that just meant I couldn't say goodbye. Something your mom said to me helped with that, but and now it feels like Marisol is really gone.

[00:01:55] I lost someone, too. I never even got to meet him, but you know, it still feels like I lost him. Your dad? Yeah. My mom used to tell me stories about him. And she doesn't know it, but I still think about him every day. And I just don't bring him up because I don't want to make her sad.

[00:02:24] You're a good son. She's not gone, you know. She's not gone because you remember her. And I don't think my dad's gone either. I mean, they are, but they're a part of us.

[00:03:23] Hey, Zedheads. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Ben. And I'm Alex. And this is The Walking Dead 'Cast, episode 714. And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, Dead City, season three, episode five, Imperialis. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If this is the, you know, return from the mid-season break, all right, I see where the rest of the season seems to be going.

[00:03:53] Yeah. That's my, that is my reaction to this episode. Well, that is my reaction to a particular moment of this episode. I had a couple of moments like that. Now, the ending, sure. Sure. I had, I hated it the first time I watched it. Really? Second time I appreciated it. Yes. Okay. I hated it the first time. I was like, oh my God, they're going down the same damn path they always do. But no, man.

[00:04:22] Oh, you mean, you mean that moment? No, more of it. More. Yeah. I'll, I'll get there. I'll get there. Don't you worry. But the second time through, I was like, all right, cool. I was just, I wanted one thing and I got something else and I wasn't ready to enjoy it the first time around. So that's where I landed with it was I wanted something. I didn't get it. And then it took me a minute to appreciate it. Okay. That's totally fair. I'm very curious and interested to hear your thoughts on all of that and your thought process when it came to that.

[00:04:52] Hell yeah. Yeah. So, but before we dive into the episode and just a heads up, folks, this might be last, last week we went probably like just under two hours. I don't see this episode being as long, especially because we, it was a quick turnaround for feedback. So there's not as much feedback this week. We still got a good amount in in time. True. I was, I was really happy at how folks showed up for, for this. Nicely done folks. Nicely done. Yeah.

[00:05:22] Yeah. As we mentioned last episode, we're recording this on the Tuesday before the episode even airs because I am on a early morning flight Thursday morning for Colorado. So I will, I will be away at the time that the episode airs and at the time we usually record. So, but special thanks to you, Alex, for being able to, you know, accommodate this early recording, especially while the fills are playing. You know, they just ended. We got the win.

[00:05:50] Ben and for you, Ben, I will, I would turn the fills volume down. I wouldn't turn it off, but I would turn the volume down for sure. It's so funny that you say that because in my headphones, I hear the game. So I know it's on. Having said that, when you hit record, I did, I did take the volume the whole way down and then they won. So I immediately turned off the phone, flipped it over. I'm like, all right, I'm locked in. I'm ready. I'm ready. Yeah. I asked you when we first jumped on, I was like, who's winning? Cause I could hear it in the background.

[00:06:20] You know, you hear Krooky and you're like, all right, we're in for a treat. So you being the diehard fills fan that you are just like me. And of course, with your podcast about the, you know, talking about him, I would expect nothing less. Darn toot. Darn toot. But so it's funny. I, I, I was texting with Kara on my way home from work. Don't text and drive folks. And Kara, your, your wife, just so people know. Yes. My wife. Sorry. And she was texting me. She's like, really? I'm five minutes into the podcast and there's Philly's talk. I was like, wait, which, which podcast are you talking about? She's like the walking dead podcast.

[00:06:49] And first off, first off, I was so touched that she was listening. I was just going to say that's awesome. And hi, Kara. Yes. Right. Like she, and don't get me wrong. She's listened before, but she wasn't exactly following too much along. So it was very surprising, but we're, we're doing work on the house. And I imagine she needed something to listen to. And she was texting me like, oh my God, Ben gets to meet Ross Marquand. Like teenage me is so jealous. I'm like, yeah, I know, man. That's the life.

[00:07:17] That's the life when you're, when you're rolling with the big dog over here. You know, one of these days too, and, and I'm glad Kara's listening because one of these days, like, it's so interesting. You and I have such a cool, like rapport with each other. We have never met in person. And we have been in each other's like area codes often enough. Like I was just at King of Prussia two weekends ago. Yeah. And like, I didn't say anything, but yeah, it's just, and you're in Lancaster often enough that, you know, that's a 40 minute drive for me. So yeah.

[00:07:46] One of these days we will connect. We need to make it happen. So Redding's like a halfway point. So we'll figure it out. Yeah. We'll figure something. Even if we go to like chocolate world and Hershey or something. Just, I mean, I would never say no to chocolate world and I get, I get free season passes to the park. So, you know, there you go. There you go. So, but thank you for listening, Kara. I appreciate that too. Right. So that was nice. I don't know why I got into that, but it was a good, it was a good moment. Oh, right. Cause you said we were talking about Phillies right away.

[00:08:16] I got you. Now the text message, now the text message for this episode is going to be like, oh, five minutes into the episode and you're talking about me. Like, what is this? She's going to be like, you really shouldn't text and drive. Okay. Don't be telling people that you're texting and driving. That's what that's going to be. I can't wait. I can't wait. Exactly. But let's dive into the feedback for the past episode, which was found slash lost episode four. Yes.

[00:08:39] This was the, the, the dance in the wilderness between Maggie and Luis and Negan and Renata kind of like sizing each other up, throwing their dicks on the table and saying, whose is where? Yeah. Which we're going to get some payoff this week. Yeah, man. I, again, I really appreciate it and liked it the second time around. But before we get to that, I say we, we check in with last week and I'll start off with Laurie Stewart.

[00:09:07] Laurie Stewart says, does anyone else think Luis's wife is going to show up alive at some point after he and Maggie are together? Or do I watch too many soap operas? I definitely think they set that up. Laurie, I had the same thought and the same curiosity. And it's like, okay, if they lean into their worst impulses, yes, she is going to show up. Unless they find a really good way of writing it in, which like when Luis joined Negan's

[00:09:34] saviors, I was like, oh shit, that's a fascinating way to bring that character back in. This is probably too big to do that. But like, I don't know. The impulse to bring her in sounds to your point, very soap opera. And this season hasn't been very soap opera. So as much as I can see the narrative threads, I hope not. I hope not yet, at least. Well, I said that last week when we were talking about this, that if they were to bring her in and I think I use those exact words or the mention of soap opera ish to do that.

[00:10:03] Like, it feels like they're setting something up. And I said last week that I think this was purely just an opportunity for them to write something in that they could find that Luis and Maggie could find some common ground to move on. Yep. And they kind of explored that a little bit more this week, which we'll get into as well. But yeah, I don't I don't know. I'm not buying the whole idea of Marisol showing up. I don't I don't think she will. I don't think so either.

[00:10:31] Not with again, we're over halfway through the season and the story that they seem to be telling isn't that isn't that especially after this week, like that's not that doesn't seem to be a direction that they're interested in exploring at this time. Yeah. And I even think the whole Luis and Maggie thing was probably something that was one episode and we're done. No, man, that was going to stay. I think I think I think I think Luis. First off, their chemistry chemistry was so palpable.

[00:11:00] I just I'm ship. I love it. I love it. I know you don't love the term, but I'm shipping the hell out of them. I am. It's so funny that you use that term because I have that term for something this week as well. But we'll get. Oh, God, when we get there, I have strong opinions. But anyways, yeah. So I I don't know. It's going to be fun to watch. Yeah, definitely. For sure. Next up, we have feedback from Deborah Ulmer. And she says, hi, Ben and Alex.

[00:11:28] The beginning of this episode was very ominous because The Walking Dead gives us trust issues when they focus on one character. Yeah. Yes. I was thinking that it was either setting us up for Luis to get killed or maybe for him and Maggie's spark a relationship. I'm glad it was the latter. It could be eventually they can break through their grief to find something with each other. Seems like there's more to Renata than both Negan and all thought and all this thought. But I'm not sure of her angle either.

[00:11:57] But I guess she's going to just try to keep Negan in line and the piece and keep the piece until it gets really out of hand. Y'all have a good one and take care. Yeah. We said that last week that like Walking Dead has given us trust issues so much that. Yes. I couldn't trust Gerald. I couldn't trust the traitor. I couldn't trust literally any because, again, Fear the Walking Dead and even the last two seasons of Dead City, they would have one of those two people would have been a traitor

[00:12:25] of some sort, would have would have been a bad a bad influence somehow. Yeah. I even said it last week that like the whole thing with Gerald that like when when Gerald was to the door, we're like, oh, this guy's bad news. And then we're like, oh, maybe he's not. And then he takes into the camp and we're like, oh, this is great. And then they talk about having a ceremony under every full moon. I'm like, oh, well, this is a cult. Oh, it's really not a cult. It's just Presbyterians, which I love. Yeah. It's just a celebration. Like what is happening? God love it.

[00:12:53] And then the traitor ends up coming through on her deal and they get everything they need. We're like, and then what is going on? I know. It's just things working out the right way for one week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For once. All right. Coming up next from G Johnson. I finally think I'm in on the show. I still wish they would have dumped the Croat and the Dumba in the flashback before episode one, especially if this is only eight episodes.

[00:13:18] Episode three put me to sleep like three times, but I finally watched it and I guess it was okay. Episode four was well done. I enjoyed it. It's nice to see them at least starting to mention the folk they got through the hard times with. Gee, I'm so happy because you were not vibing those first two episodes, but glad to see that you stuck with and that you're enjoying kind of what's been thrown at you. Can't wait to see what you think this week. Yeah. I don't. I mean, the whole falling asleep during episode three.

[00:13:49] Sometimes you're just tired, man. Like I get it. It's true. Sometimes I, you know, the first time I tried to watch Game of Thrones, I fell asleep three times trying to watch the pilot episode before I even got to the incest. If I had stayed awake to the incest, I would have been all in, but I just couldn't get to Cersei and Jaime. Spoiler alert. No, we're well past spoilers. I would hope so. For that.

[00:14:14] The next piece of feedback comes from Matt King, who actually left us two comments on the Facebook page. So I'm just going to read them both together. Nice. I was hoping you would. Yeah. When Luis and Maggie were waiting at the traitor house and the old guy turned up was all nice and took them to his community and fed them. Was anyone else expecting them to be some kind of scary or weird group that would drug them and torture them or worse? Yep. We just talked about that. Yes.

[00:14:38] Perhaps it's watching too much Walking Dead that you aren't used to nice acts without some disaster following soon after. All right. The earthquake destroying much of their food supply is going to have major implications for the rest of the season, especially if they're still attracting outsiders. Liked the touch of putting buckets on the zombie heads, but surely you wouldn't want to rip out their teeth anyway for extra safety? I don't know, but don't call me Shirley. Jesus.

[00:15:08] Well done. Thank you. Well done, sir. And this was the second part he added. The whole idea of using zombies as an energy source. In the show, do they have to have been zombies for a while or would someone who was recently killed be just as viable? Luis's brother was just killed and then put directly into the drink. No, he wasn't just killed. He was stored in a room. Oh, that's right. He was alive for a while. Okay.

[00:15:34] But the guy that fell in was fresh as hell dead because he was killed by the methane. But there was also a walker in there with him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. If they were to get to the point of the zombies becoming scarce, could a dictator just start killing a group they don't like to use them as a new energy source? E.g. Ethnic cleansing. So I talked a little bit about this last week and the science behind it.

[00:16:01] The methane is produced from the body starting to rot. So a freshly killed person is not going to produce the same amount of methane as a walker. A walker is going to have to have been dead for a while before they're producing enough methane to produce a fuel source. That makes sense. Okay. So to answer your question, Matt, no. A dictator could do that and then just store them for later.

[00:16:31] Yes. Sadly. But a fresh kill is not going to make a valid fuel source when it comes to that. They're going to need to rot for a little bit. I'm going to take your word for it. I've never turned zombies into fuel source, so that's not my area of expertise. Me neither. But, you know, unfortunately, watching too much CSI know the science behind a rotting corpse. That will happen. That will absolutely happen. All right.

[00:17:00] But, yeah, we have an email now. Yeah, we do. And Colin has put you to task. Let's see how well you do. Okay. Okay. Colin Stilwell says, It's so nice to be back in the fine state of Iowa rather than the oh-so-boring Pacific Northwest and beyond in the crystal clear waters of the Yukon and the bustling burbs of British Columbia. Yes. So happy to be back in Iowa.

[00:17:30] Said no one. Fuck Maggie and Louise for not laughing at Gerald's Presbyterian joke. I was raised Prezi. We get it. Maggie the mouth can't keep her trap shut about the unlimited fuel cheat code. You can't make me like her and Herschel AMC. I don't care if they're as interesting as the vegetables I was forced to eat as the kid. We actually went to a Dr. Seuss dinner while we were on vacation, and I wish I did not have the green eggs and ham. I did not like them, Sam motherfucking I am.

[00:17:58] This just kind of sums up the episode. Not really my thoughts. Here you go, Alex. Maggie and Louise managed to meander their way across municipal Manhattan to the meager marsh and mire of Memoranic to muster merchantile matters with a misunderstood merchant of magical medicines, only to monitor the malfeasance as she maneuvers their minivan past Mulberries and into the mist. Very well done. Thank you so far. I think there might be more. Oh, there's more.

[00:18:25] Gerald the jungle dwellers jokes jehoviantly about Jesus and Genesis before joining our junta to his jointer. After generous jubilation and gin, our justified jury jumps back to the junction to join in jokes till receiving their generics and journeying back to Jackson Square. Earthquakes ensue, ensuring our emergency room is ergonomically erect, ensuring excitement in episode five of Iadi Itisi. Pig Latin. It counts. CS. It's. I know.

[00:18:56] Okay. I know. Yeah. Ed Day. Ed Day Itisi. Yeah. Yeah. Woo. All right, man. That was fun. I enjoyed that third. Well done. And that was a good challenge from Colin. That was good. That was. Woo. All right. Thank God we have a voicemail from Steve Brown because I need a moment to rest my tongue. Take in your breath. Get it all back. But yes, as you mentioned, we do have a voicemail from Steve Brown.

[00:19:22] And I do want to preface that he did send an email secondary to this. Ooh. That says, and I want to read it exactly. I had already recorded my message when I heard your question about my process. Ben is correct. I record and pause as I go. I rarely need to edit myself, although sometimes I do. Thanks for the question. God love him. God love him. Thanks for the answer, Steve. I had a feeling that was how you did it.

[00:19:50] So it's good to get the confirmation. You know what? I got to say, folks out there, we have been asking you questions, challenging you, and you have been answering, Colin, Steve, the crew. Love it. Thank you guys. Last week, I'm sorry. One of the things Kara did message me about today was like, hey, did you ever try and get that champagne? And I was like, shit, I did forget to do that. So I will try and have that ready for next week. All right. Gotcha. All right. But as you mentioned, we do have a message from Steve Brown. So let's go ahead and play that now.

[00:20:22] Kidding. That was amazing. I love a good rig roll. Every once in a while, I got to do it and I can't play it for too long. Otherwise, the podcast is going to get flagged and get down. I'd rather a rig roll than a meat spin. After Jason just did all that work in previous episodes, that's all we need is to force him to do it again for another episode. No, just kidding. Just a rib. Here it is. The voicemail from Steve Brown. Hello, Walking Dead cast. Ben and Alex. This is Steve.

[00:20:52] And this is going to be for The Walking Dead, Dead City, season three, episode four, found slash lost. I don't know why I'm laughing through this. Oh, this guy's got a bottle of Johnny Walker blue from the beginning times. Oh. So we have this side quest for Maggie and Luis. Okay. Any chances this traitor woman is going to be somebody that we know? Okay. How big is that walker that this other guy, not Negan, is pulling around? And his little kid's got one also. That was Herschel. That was the kid.

[00:21:22] That hoodie on, I didn't recognize him. I guess it's not big. It's just wearing some kind of a ski jacket or a ski suit. I don't understand why it's weird or it's just bloated. Yeah, it's just bloated. It's tearing apart, going into the cage. That was gross. Oh, how does Renata, she just believes that Negan killed Donna? This is not going to help Dillard's situation either if Negan moves out. It sounds like Maggie is telling Luis all of her history he knows about Dwight. Not Dwight. Gosh. Eugene. I don't know how I blanked on his name.

[00:21:50] So she's not someone that we've known before, but they're going to give her the... How is she going to have the stuff to make the vats? I don't know. So they're staying in the trader's cabin all night and they're playing Jenga. Oh, this is quite the community. 60-something people and wow. Oh, they're the village. They don't need anything. And they're taking the large supper. Communion. Oh, that got me. I thought they really did kiss, but no, they didn't. There's got to be some catch here, right? The trader... I don't know. It just seems weird.

[00:22:18] They would just give her the blueprints and she'd give her all the stuff they need and just let them go. Okay, so they're back at the apartment complex and they're going to be like all this stuff, I guess. Oh, those cracks in the sidewalk. Oh, earthquakes, sinkholes, not good. Oh, and they're going to lose the pantry and now you lost the ring. Well, I guess your call about survival being the enemy or whatever the big bad this season is what we're going and what we're seeing because the island is not stable. All right. Talk to you next week.

[00:22:45] Even Steve is questioning people's... Yeah. I love that. And again, the most surprising thing they could have done was everyone was straight. Everyone was just normal and not lethal, not crazy, not cannibal, helpful, kind, accepting, welcoming, warm. Like that was the single most... It was like Alexandria again, you know?

[00:23:15] Like, wait, what? Like this place exists? No, that's not a thing in this point in the ZA. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. But thank you, Steve, for the voicemail as always. As well as the notes on the process. I could really hear it this time. I could. Yep. The perfect lunch combo. That first bite of your favorite sub followed by ice cold Pepsi. Add a couple of friends and now that's next level.

[00:23:43] Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. See you. Avatar Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney+. It's the film critics are calling the best Avatar yet. Go, go, go, go! A true epic and completely jaw-dropping. This is the only purest thing in this world.

[00:24:13] Return to Pandora on Disney+. It will be an adventure for the whole family. And watch the Oscar-winning phenomenon at home. This is sick! Avatar Fire and Ash, now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13. Cozy season is ahead and you'll be spending way more time inside. Is your home ready? Don't worry. With Wayfair, you can upgrade your space without breaking the bank. Score up to 70% off during their Labor Day clearance on furniture, area rugs, mattresses, and more.

[00:24:43] Plus, surprise flash deals you can't miss. Whether it's one room or the whole house, Wayfair has pieces for every style and budget. Shop Wayfair's Labor Day clearance now through September 7th at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. But, with that being said, it is time to break down this new episode. Season 3, Episode 5, Imperialis. Imperialis? It's like, it... So here's the thing. Here's the thing.

[00:25:12] The way it's spelled, all I see is Cialis. I don't know about anybody else, but... I didn't until now. But now that's all you can see, isn't it? Imperialis. It just, it feels like Cialis. And that, I don't know what it means. And, of course, I didn't think to look it up before we were live. Yeah. I don't know either. But, uh, why don't you go ahead and read the plot summary for this episode? With pleasure.

[00:25:38] With Manhattan's food supply dwindling and tensions beginning to rise, Maggie and Renata turn to Negan and an unlikely group of survivors to help secure the walkers needed to keep the city's power running. Their success offers the community some much-needed hope. But fear and desperation soon expose cracks in the fragile society they're trying to build. As Herschel and Luis bond over the people they've lost, Maggie begins to see a different side of Negan until his old instincts resurface in a confrontation that threatens his place

[00:26:07] in their new community. Great summary. Wow. Way to, like, really hit all of the main points without anything being spoilery. That was nice. That's what I try, man. I don't want to... I mean, granted, by the time people are listening to this, they've already seen the episode. Sure, but still. Executed. I mean, if I were still... If TV Guide still existed, Ben, that is the exact summary I would have wanted on this Sunday episode. Well, I mean, you know what?

[00:26:36] Then I'm bringing TV Guide back. God, wouldn't that be special? Oh, I would have done that. Oh, stop. I love... Don't get me wrong. I love TV Guide, but I don't think it's needed anymore. Well, no, no. I mean, I don't need TV Guide to tell me what's on Netflix. Exactly. And who watches, like, regular television much anymore anyway? Most... Everybody streams everything now. Unless you're getting it for sports and even that, I just have a... Well, I'm not going to say I have someone's password, but I have someone's password to be able to watch my team. So, life's good.

[00:27:06] All right. So, here's the thing. Again, getting into this episode, I said at the top, I watched it twice. The first time, I was not feeling it. And before we get into the episode, which I really ended up liking and really, really, really, really, really like, I want to say I was really taken aback at fast-forwarding past the earthquake and the losing of the ring and just right into solution mode. I was really surprised. And again, this is...

[00:27:36] I feel like Dead City in the past, we would have spent an entire episode with Maggie and Negan working things out while Dillard and Herschel and Luis and Renata are figuring something out to bridge some sort of a gap. And I was just... I was taken aback that they'd spent no time on the resolution of the moment and just went to the resolution of the crisis. But did I not warn you last week when we talked about this that there's not going to be any...

[00:28:05] I had a feeling there wasn't going to be any kind of rescue efforts to try and salvage as much as they could. They were going to move on and it was going to be, that's what happened. And now we're dealing with the consequences. And that's exactly what they did. You did. And I just... I still wasn't ready for it. So again, I went through the entire episode and there's some other points that we'll get to that I was like, all right, what's going on here? But again, I didn't enter it with the right mindset.

[00:28:33] So knowing the end result and then watching it again, I was like, all right, this is solid. And I even said too that the fracture in the street and who was on whose side was also going to be a good representation as to where we were going to go in the future. Damn, if that wasn't prescient. Although I'm questioning one person on a side that they're on. But we'll get to that when we get there. Folks, we are teasing so much. I love it.

[00:29:03] But this episode kicks off with basically a city council meeting and it's them addressing that the food shortage. Lack of food. The rationing are in need. And I thought this was a fascinating one. Again, in shows past, even at Jericho, you have this rousing speech from Renata, this rousing speech from Maggie, and you think everything's going to be okay. And someone still pipes out from the back. Like, yeah, I don't care. I'm going to be hungry. Like, where's the food? I thought that was pretty realistic.

[00:29:30] What did you think of the idea of, all right, we can't give them food, but we can give them unlimited electricity for now. Do you think that's a decent enough trade off? Or do you think people would still have issues? It's a good distraction. I mean, here's the thing. You're giving them power back, which is giving them televisions, video games, lights, everything else. If you were in an environment where you didn't have any of that, you're going to focus on the one thing that's key and front, and that's hunger.

[00:29:58] If you're hungry, that's all you're going to think about when you have nothing else to distract you. So the idea of giving them 24-7 power again so that they could do that and keep them distracted, I actually thought was a pretty smart idea. It's not anything that's going to last forever. Right. But I guess it gives your scavengers time to get out there and see what they can. And again, however many years we are into the ZEA now, and it's funny, I was listening

[00:30:26] to Kara listening to the podcast, and I tried to figure out how many years it's been, and I have no idea. But I imagine most of Manhattan's pretty pit clean at this point, I would think. I would think, but I also think there's probably some cashes out there. Yeah. There's some pockets out there. That makes sense. Especially considering the Empire State Building, which, you know, dude, I knew that building the moment I saw it. I was like, oh, that's Empire State. A hundred percent. I knew it was either that or 30 Rock.

[00:30:56] I figured it wasn't 30 Rock, but Empire State made a lot more sense. I've never been. I imagine you have. I've never been there. I have. Yep. But what makes me think is there might even be stuff in that building for them to find later on, too, is because one, as large of that building as there is. And if you look at what was above the doorway, that it said Haven in white. Yeah. Written by hell over top of it. So it was probably sanctuary that turned shitty afterwards. Okay.

[00:31:26] Exactly. That was a sanctuary that people went to for survival. That something bad happened and everything went to hell. That is how sanctuaries work in this universe. Yeah. So I would have to imagine that there's probably some stuff in there that has gone unclaimed because nobody's gone in there to get it. Yeah. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see if they build upon that. But so. All right. So going from the food versus electricity idea, obviously, you got to sell it to Negan.

[00:31:55] You got to get the sales pitch. And this is the first time Renata poked Negan a little bit on the tuna casserole and like knowing that the Dom is dead and like, hey, man, you're going to help us or else I'm going to tell Maggie. And Negan bit back a good bit. And I was surprised how early in the episode they dropped that crumb for us. Yeah. And that was such an interesting way to do it, too, with the mention of the tuna casserole. That was like it was absolutely. Yeah. It was good.

[00:32:24] So much so that I didn't even pick up on it initially either. Like I was like, what? I was like, what? What's with the tuna casserole? And then it like it took me literally into the next scene after we were already through that. And I was like, oh, tuna casserole. I'm like, oh, I get it. See, I love tuna casserole. So when Negan said that Maggie sucked, I was like, I wonder what what's in it. So I remembered. I remembered. But yeah, I thought that was real ballsy of Renata. And like, here's the thing, dude, like I love Renata.

[00:32:55] So. I'm cool with it. I'm actually cool with her holding Negan's nuts a little bit to the fire. And yeah, like this, I was a little I was surprised because the world knows how much of a Negan stand and not. Yeah, no, I'll say I'm a Negan stand. I'm a Negan guy. But like right now, I'm a bit team Renata. And that over Negan. Absolutely. Yes. I am team Renata over Negan right now. Okay. No, that's totally fair. We'll get there. Yeah. But it.

[00:33:25] Yeah, it was. It was just an interesting dynamic of Renata. Like you said, kind of holding him by the balls and being like, I have this. So we're not having anything over Negan is something powerful. Yeah, it is. Especially when the thing that she has over Negan is something he doesn't want Maggie to know. I think that's an additional layer because and I'm sure we're going to get into that.

[00:33:54] See, and I have a feeling that dynamic is going to change very soon. Yes. Everything. Everything. Um, but I don't know what direction we'll get to that. Yeah. I don't know either. But I mean, you know, after this, we see that, you know, they come up with this plan to get together, baby. This was something I was talking about before, too, that they were going to have to round up and herd walkers because of the fuel source thing. They can't put them in there dead. They got to put them in there while they're still moving. You're so right.

[00:34:23] And they're going right to a untapped resource of walkers. And it's the Empire State Building, like we mentioned. Perfect. And seeing just walkers just randomly throw themselves out of windows and fall. Fascinating. It makes you wonder how full that building really is of walkers. Yeah. We've we only saw the lobby. That's it. Amen to that. And I am very. So when the when the walkers went splat, it reminded me of the movie Dogma.

[00:34:53] And just, you know, when when. Yes. It's up there and you just drop it. I was like, oh, man, it got me every time. It'll be just dropping people randomly. Damn right. Oh, you Loki. But no, I I really I really thought it was an interesting idea. I thought the execution of the. All right. So the execution on the ground of the Zeds was phenomenal. Ben, I have to ask you a question. OK. Was the rope system necessary?

[00:35:23] Well, how else would they distract? I mean, you can still throw rats into the middle of the crowd. You can throw flares in the middle of the crowd from two different angles. They were blocked off. No one was coming up either of those stairs. Those stairs were blocked off seemingly. So I think to add to the drama, they added the rope part. But I think it was completely unnecessary. I think they could have just chucked the stuff in there anyways and had the same result. That was the one thing that I was like, hold on now.

[00:35:51] I think you're partially right. I think when you have a lobby that is full of that many Zeds and yes, like the staircases were blocked off, but they were probably also blocked off. Like for to hold off maybe two or three walkers. OK. I think if you had a whole mob, a full lobby of walkers at one of those barriers, it would have broken. I get that.

[00:36:19] I think keeping the attention of the walkers centered in the lobby, I think was probably a smart choice. I don't know. No, I thought that it was one of those. They were almost being so careful that they ended up being dangerous. Like it's like when I'm walking with my kids in the street and a fly is flying by their face and they get so geeked out that they run out of the way into the street and like in oncoming traffic.

[00:36:45] It's like, no, no, you got scared over a little thing and it ended up putting you in a lot more danger. I don't know. It's so funny that you say something like that, too, because earlier today, no lie, I saw a video of a woman leaving her house, pushing a stroller with a baby in it, and she walks into a spider web and gets so distraught at trying to brush this off that she lets go of the stroller and the stroller rolls down the driveway towards the street.

[00:37:15] Damn. She caught it before it hit the street, but it does go right into what you said that like you're so overly careful that like you get distracted by everything else that's insane. Insane. But yes, I thought that was that was an interesting play. Thankfully, it all worked out in the end and it was cool to watch. Again, it was really cool to watch the cliffhanger moment with the flares and the eating of the rats and all that. I enjoyed it watching them hurting the Zeds and really well-oiled team.

[00:37:45] Um, I'd like to point out some of the members of the dead squad that I noticed. So we had the, um, post-apocalyptic priest, always a fun guy. We had the super jacked up Terry Crews type fireman. Uh, the chef great with a cleaver in her hand rope girl that we already discussed. We had the donger, the, uh, adult entertainment star. Thought he was fun. And then the, uh, the girl that thinks she's Cara Dune from, uh, Mandalorian.

[00:38:15] Oh, that's a good comparison. That's really all I could see was Cara Dune the entire time. She was Gina Carano. She was like without the steroids. That's what Gina would look like. So yeah. Yeah. That, that was, and it's such a weird, and here is where, here's where I started to get a little bit worried the first time I watched the episode because this was a very eclectic

[00:38:38] bunch and they did this whole getting the gang together montage, but not a single one of those characters got any depth whatsoever. They were all super, super, super, superficial. So I have thoughts on that. Okay. I have a feeling, and this is, again, this is just a theory. This is just a prediction. I don't know if it's going to play out or not. Cause again, we have to remind you, we don't look ahead at all. So I have no idea.

[00:39:04] There is a particular scene in this episode with those guys where they go down to the basement with Dillard. Yes. And they're all about how the freaks rule the world. Now freaks go out at night. Yes. I have a feeling we have seen the formation of a new click involving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, um, the dead squad. That's what I have. I have a feeling these guys are going to be their own thing. Yeah.

[00:39:32] Dillard because Dillard knows there's something wrong with him. He knows that he's a little broken, but he has found people who are also broken in their own little ways. And they appreciate his brokenness and they have shown, they showed to him today, like, Hey man, like you're not a freak. And if you're a freak, then we're all freaks. Like you're, you're as normal as I am, dude. Like I'm a former adult porn star and I have a dong that goes down to the floor and you like to hang out with Zeds. Who gives a shit?

[00:40:00] Uh, I thought that was really welcoming, but also again, I just don't trust that group. If that's, if that's their outlook, I'm worried a little bit. They're not babysitting the kids anytime soon. We'll see. Here's the question. And this is kind of where I fall with that. When I said, I questioned who was on what side of everything door in that fault, because when that fault happened at the end of last episode, we had Maggie and Negan on one side and we had Herschel, Renata and Dillard on the other. Yes.

[00:40:26] I'm now questioning Dillard on that side because I'm wondering, is the dead squad going to be a faction that breaks off and kind of does their own thing? Or are they going to be kind of like the inglorious bastards where you call them in when you don't have anybody else to do what needs to be done. And they're the ones that are willing to do the job. I, we haven't seen enough of how they're going to be used.

[00:40:55] We just know that they were important in this episode. Again, the second time I watched the one thing that stood out to me was the dead squad echoed something that Titty Cocker said two episodes ago that I can't believe I'm actually fucking saying that name as if that's a real person, but whatever that Renata like is definitely preaching, which is fuck Negan. Like Negan is not good for you. The dead squad said that to him when they were rejoicing and he was like, well, I mean, Negan thinks they're weird.

[00:41:24] They're like, nah, man, screw Negan. You don't need that. They're awesome. So you have them. You got Renata. That's going to be that we know is anti Negan and is going to be talking to him. And he did also kill the one that's not Titty Cock. I can't remember the name. I had it. I thought I wrote it down, but maybe I didn't. But the dude. Yes. Like Negan also accidentally killed the dude pet. So I think it's gonna be very easy for Renata to like turn Dillard against Negan.

[00:41:54] Well, that's why I'm that's why I'm saying I think this new freak squad, this new dead squad. Yes. Is going to be basically like Renata's inglorious bastards. Like these are. And that's why he fell on that side with Renata and Herschel is because this new group is basically going to be the group that Renata calls on to get stuff done that she's not willing to get her own hands dirty because these these guys, these freaks, these self-disclaimed

[00:42:24] freaks have found a home and a place where they are welcomed and they know who they are. Who is responsible for that? And it's Renata. Yeah, but Renata is never going to make that call. Renata is. I don't think I think this is what Negan's point is by constantly questioning her as the leader versus Maggie as the leader. Maggie, someone that will hang Gregory. Renata is not. Renata is not going to hang Gregory, but sometimes you got to hang Gregory and Maggie knew that

[00:42:53] she had to hang Gregory. To those of you that recall, Gregory was the leader of the Hilltops. Yes. Tried to get one of the guys to kill Maggie and it was unsuccessful. And Maggie was like, you know what? Got to make an example of you. And it worked in its own way. So like, I don't know. Well, I mean, again, like I'm not I don't want to jump too far ahead. So I'm not I'm going to spare as many details as I can. But that final scene of this episode, Negan did something Renata would have never done.

[00:43:23] Correct. Never. That is correct. And we'll have. I mean, we could have the conversation and jump back to other points, but like it's on the tip of my tongue. I want to know, do you think it was the right choice or not? Oh, here's OK. Oh, man. And see, this is tough for me because like you said, like I'm a Negan fan and I've liked this new Negan that we've kind of gotten.

[00:43:48] And I especially really liked the kind of heart to heart that Negan and Maggie had at the bar while they were enjoying shots of the burn. Like, I really, really liked that moment. And I was like, oh, I'm like, this is developing into something interesting. And even kind of focusing on that for a minute, too. It's so weird. I actually like leaned forward. I know. I'm excited. Because I'm like, I'm getting into this now, dude. Go off, son.

[00:44:15] I want to say, like, in regards to that heart to heart that Maggie and Negan had, I am so glad that Lauren Cohan revealed before the season started that there is no relationship of sexual or romantic stage stature between Maggie and Negan, because if we didn't know that ahead of time, that whole heart to heart would have absolutely driven people to believe they were shipping them.

[00:44:43] Bro, I, I got to tell you the first time I was waiting for that to have been some weird, like Marvel style cop out crap where like, oh my God, they're going to get it. If so, I was going to be so mad. Here's actually what I interpreted from the episode. Okay. And this goes back to the comic con where Maggie's like, Maggie and Negan. And Negan's like, I mean, I wouldn't say that. Yeah. I actually think Negan fell for Maggie.

[00:45:12] And I think Maggie picked up on that at the end. And it was like, oh my God, what the fuck? I think, I think Negan was flirting so hard, so hard. I 100%. So it was unintentional flirting. If she was flirting, it was like, oh, she did. She was being a friend that had a couple of, I don't think she had a flirtatious bone in her body. She was just being a playful friend.

[00:45:36] I did not pick up any undertones from her, but Negan was dripping in it. And I did not like that at all. Well, and here's the thing. Even if it wasn't a, like you say, like dripping in it, even if it wasn't a like, oh, like I want to bang Maggie now. Like, even if it was more, it's, and I don't even think, I think you're right. And I don't think it's like necessarily romantic love.

[00:46:04] He has learned to develop and care for Maggie very, very much over everything, which is weird considering their history and their background and their past. Or it makes so much sense considering their background and their past and what he did to her. And now he wants to make sure that nothing bad ever happens to her again. He feels this complete, go ahead. Dude, even jumping forward again to that final moment when he's sitting there with Fabian and they're having that conversation.

[00:46:30] The moment it comes out about that Matt, like that Fabian is even a slight threat to Maggie from that conversation. The look on Negan's face, like it's, it's a switch that has flipped and there was no flipping it back at that point. I firmly believe that Mag, Negan is in love with Maggie. And I think that is fascinating.

[00:46:58] And I love the idea that it would be unrequited or I don't know. I hate it as well, but it'd be an interesting, there, there is some sort of absolute connective tissue between from Negan to Maggie where like he is really hero worshiping her. Now, if it's not romantic, it is a level of hero worshiping. I feel. And I, and I think that's just it. I don't believe when you say like he's in love with Maggie, I don't think he's in love

[00:47:27] with Maggie. I think he has built this kinship with her because he says during that whole heart to heart that like, this is starting to feel like home for me. Right. And Renat is not the one that should be running this. You should be running this. He has developed a whole new level of respect for Maggie that he will do anything that I think if without Maggie, everything that he's starting to feel that like now he's starting

[00:47:53] to feel like home, he's got a comrade in, in Dillard, at least for now, you know, he's found a home in this bar and he's found a place that he can be who he is without having to be who he was. Like it's such this weird dynamic and it's all because of Maggie. And I think now I don't think it's a romantic thing. I don't think he's in love with her. I think it's like, I need to protect her at all costs because if I lose her, I lose that. But I see that.

[00:48:23] I definitely do see that. Yeah. I think it's just that like Maggie is his connection now, like to everything that he has and he's willing to do whatever it takes to protect her as we have seen. As we have seen time and time again this season, for sure. For sure. I'm just talking this episode. Amen to that. We saw what he was, the length he was willing to go to that it wasn't even that he killed Fabian.

[00:48:50] And he did it in front of Renata without a fucking care. Didn't even flinch. Yep. Now we'll, all right, we'll get to it. But first off, before we do, we have a little bit more ground to cover. By the way, we are doing such a time efficient job of getting through this episode and like hitting our last week was Ramble City. And now we are at 44 minutes and just like humming along. I'm loving it, man. I told you this probably wasn't going to be like, it's a very straightforward episode for

[00:49:18] the most part until you get to the end. And that's where the fun comes in. But I got to say, Dillard and Renata singing, singing the karaoke song was so magical. I thought it was super cute. They had a good vibe, man. Like that was that. I'm sure he smells terrible hanging out with the deadies all the time, but they were having a good time. I was so happy to see that. Well, but I mean, even him asking like Maggie, you know, about her and stuff like that.

[00:49:47] And this whole little dynamic between Dillard being interested in Renata, it just further pursues my point of like when the chips fall, whose side does he go on? It's going to be Renata's because he's developing feelings for Renata. The the freaks are telling him that Negan's bad. The walkers in his head are telling him that Negan is bad. He's going to fall in line with Renata. 100 percent. Yes. Yeah. I just remember something that I did not put in my notes, but I caught the first time and

[00:50:17] it made me laugh so hard. And I thought of you immediately. Did you catch the name of the bartender at Patty's North? Oh, I know I heard it, but it didn't click. What was it? It's Dennis. The name of the bartender at Patty's North was Dennis. So it falls into our always sunny. It sure does. And Dennis is going to be alive at this point for sure.

[00:50:44] I'm sorry to break away from this conversation, but always sunny fans. Always sunny. Just came back this week. I didn't see it yet. Dude. I love it. They are absolutely ridiculous. At some point we're going to get back. I promise. At some point I stopped watching. It's always sunny. It was probably after college when I didn't have cable and like, I was just kind of existing

[00:51:14] and I dropped off for like four seasons. And then last year I got a real bad flu, real bad. Put me on my ass. And I watched through the entire always sunny series. There's never been a bad season. There has never been a bad season of it's always sunny in Philadelphia. There's a reason it's so longstanding and I cannot wait to watch this season. They I'm just going to say like, instead of doing the recommendation at the end of this episode, like we did last week, I'm just saying it right now.

[00:51:43] Always sunny in Philadelphia. And to kind of tie it back into podcastica with Jason, I remember having a conversation with Jason about always sunny because it was a show that was on his radar, but he never watched and his and his reasoning behind never watching was because any like I'm paraphrasing, but he said to me, he said, I hate watching movies or television shows where good things happen to bad people. I was like, oh, well, then you are going to love always sunny. These are bad things happening to bad people.

[00:52:11] Nothing good ever happens to these. That's what I said. I was like, because they are horrible people and nothing good ever happens to them. It's kind of like Larry David. Like he's a terrible person in all of his shows and nothing good ever happens to Larry. And Jason has since started watching always sunny and has fallen in love with it. So like, I'm outstanding. I'm glad. So that's my recommendation. Always sunny is back for it's 11th season. I think something might be more than that. It might be a crazy number. Yeah.

[00:52:42] All right. So before we get into more meat and potatoes of the episode, I did have one side quest question for you. Okay. Inspired by Renata and Dillard. And what is your do I prefer a battery or electric operated vibrator? No, I know you're electric. You're a real man. No, but what is your go to karaoke song? Oh, that is a really good question. Um, so it's cool. It's been a long time since I've done karaoke.

[00:53:12] Um, but I am a, I, it's a weird thing to say, but I am a Buble guy, man. Like I am a good crooner is always good. Feeling good by Buble is, is a go-to for me. Um, home is a good one. Yeah. But I mean, even Chris or some. No home by Buble. Oh, okay. I gotcha. I gotcha. But I mean, even, um, that's life by Sinatra is another one. It's a good one. It's a good one. I do.

[00:53:43] Yeah. That's solid. I did. Uh, and rest in peace to this man because I, I loved him, but I remember doing a man. I feel like a woman with Pierre Robert one time at a, um, in a drunken stupor at a ski resort, uh, during a day off at the slopes with MMR. You know, the best karaoke is at a ski resort. Most likely drunken. Well, what was fun about that night was we were doing, um, we were doing, uh, we were

[00:54:11] challenging each other to do songs of opposite sex. So like the guys had to sing female songs and the girls had to sing male songs. So we chose Shania Twain for some reason. Oh, that's a good one. But well, man, I feel like a woman is perfect, but I reciprocate the question back to you, sir. What is yours? All right. So depending on the level of drunkenness I've gotten, um, to start the night, it is, uh, Backstreet Boys, everybody rock your body. Okay. Okay.

[00:54:41] Or no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I want it that way. Sorry. I want it that way. It's absolutely. I want it that way. Okay. All right. That's a good one. After a few drinks, it is, uh, Hamilton guns and ships. Ooh, that is a phenomenal song. Cause if there was any character from Hamilton. Oh, yes. No. See for me, if there was any character from Hamilton whose song I would do, it's Washington. Ooh. I mean, yes.

[00:55:10] I just love the rap in, uh, guns and ships. And after two to three beers, my tongue is loose enough that like I can make that work before that. My tongue is too, it's, it's too stiff, but after that I can defeat it. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you're, I think you're talking battle of Yorktown, right? Is that the guns and ships is guns and ships the name of the song shifts. And so the balance shifts, we were all shamble with a rendezvous. Yeah. But I think that's, that's all part of the battle of Yorktown song. All right. I'm pretty sure.

[00:55:42] Because battle of Yorktown is my favorite battle of Yorktown is my favorite song from Hamilton. So it is, it is phenomenal. I know my daughter did a dance to guns and ships or at least her studio did. So that's what I think of. I think of it as separate. Maybe it's not separate. Maybe it's all together. But anyways. Yeah. I think guns, I think guns and ships is, I'm looking just to be sure. I think it's its own thing. I think it's no, it's no, it's Yorktown.

[00:56:11] That is the battle. Yorktown is good. It's paddle. It's a part of Yorktown. All right. Well, oh no. Guns and chips is its own song. I was waiting for it. Even when I know I'm right, I don't actually like say it. I just let the other person get there or they don't. And I don't care, but yes. No, I stand corrected. And we have now completely undone anything we said about our momentum of getting this conversation done. So good.

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[00:58:04] So, next brings us to Renata sniffing out Fabian's ridiculously, and I mean ridiculously thinly veiled plot to steal resources from the community. I mean, the second he says no to helping corral the Zeds and instead says, but I'll take extra shifts on armory duty. You're like, alright dude, no one volunteers for armory duty like that in that scenario unless you're going to be trying some stuff.

[00:58:32] Honestly, at first I thought he was going to be raiding it and setting up a militia to try to take down the leadership. I really did. See, and that's weird that you say that too because I didn't pick up on him wanting, like, using that as an opportunity to steal at all. But I was also still kind of adjusting my seat back after being on the edge of my seat during the whole walker wrangling stuff. Yep, that makes sense.

[00:58:58] So, I might have been slightly distracted to the point where I just wasn't paying enough attention to that scene to really pick up on that. I like it. I didn't pick up on that until Renata confronted him. Okay. Damn. Alright. I felt it. I felt it. And also, I will say, one of the things that, again, like, made me really admire Renata was just, like, just the pure happiness on her face as she walked through the halls and could hear the children laughing and having a good time and, like, knowing, like, yeah, man, like, we did that.

[00:59:27] Like, we got these families to a place where they're happy. Like, I just, I cheer for Renata. I do. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of, I'm on team Renata, but, like, does that mean I'm going to have to be on, I can't be on team Maggie? Like, I don't think it's Maggie versus Renata. I think it's Renata versus Negan. And Maggie's going to be stuck in the middle. And Dillard's going to be stuck in the middle.

[00:59:55] So, if Maggie is forced to choose a side, where do you think she's going to fall? Because if she's in the middle, she's going to have to choose a side. I know. I know. And, alright, so, she's got a vibrate for Luis, who is Renata's brother. Her son, Herschel, sees Luis as a father figure and doesn't respect Negan. They're cool, like cousins, but not peers in any way.

[01:00:25] Um, Negan keeps trying to whisper in her ear, like Denethor, like, yeah, man, you should be, you should be the king, not her. I don't know. I don't know how that's going to go. And I think that's exactly what the plan of the season, like, that's what they're trying to do, is we don't know how that's going to go. See, I am of the ilk right now, where I feel like if Maggie is caught in the middle and she has to choose a side, I know it's weird to say, man, but I think she's going team Negan.

[01:00:51] I think her and Negan have been at odds for so long in the first two seasons and even previously before that, that the writers are going to throw us a loop. And, man, and they're going to be like, she's siding with Negan on this. I also wonder if maybe they are afraid, like, not that, sorry, if maybe Maggie is so stubborn that she doesn't want to be wrong about Negan being different, so she's going to keep on believing that he's better.

[01:01:18] Because here's the thing, again, Negan, like, hasn't exactly kept it a secret that he has no problem killing people. Like, even when they came by initially, like, yeah, we're gonna need more walkers. Like, all right, give me a list of names. Like, no, we're gonna go get actual walkers. But, like, it is who he is. He's not that scared of Renata knowing that he killed Adama. If anything, I think he's happy to know that she knows that he's still doing that.

[01:01:45] So I just, I don't know where it goes from here. I am so excited. I think you're right, though. I think Maggie will stick with Negan. Well, see, here, and this is just my thought process on this, too, is if even going back to the beginning of this episode where Renata has Fabian stand before the town and say what he did wrong. Oh, no, that was not in the beginning. That was later. Yeah. That was after she confronted him. I call that the trial of Fabian curls.

[01:02:14] It wasn't even a trial. It was basically just an admission of guilt and, okay, go back to your life. It was a public flogging without the flogging. Yeah, and, like, I don't formally, like, I like Renata, but I don't agree with that. And I don't think Maggie does either because she even, when Renata and Maggie are talking about that and she's, and Renata says to Maggie, like, oh, this is, like, this is the best way we can handle this. It's either that or during the. She was like, is it? And she's like, it's either that or let the city turn mob on him. And which one would you choose?

[01:02:43] And Maggie's like, I don't like either one of those options. So Maggie doesn't exactly agree with Renata on this either. And this kind of goes back to a point I made, like, one or two weeks ago. Like, I think it was back to an episode three of that. Maggie, I think, believes we need a justice system with this. We need a judge. We need a jury. And sometimes that might mean we need an executioner.

[01:03:10] And Maggie probably could see that that's Negan. He is an executioner. He has been. And, you know, that's one thing he does get right. But I worry that with Fabian, he was way too fast. He was way too fast to pull that trigger. Literally. I do agree that he was way too fast. But devil's advocate to that, which Negan literally is the devil in that situation. What would have happened?

[01:03:38] Because how else would that situation have played out? And this is Negan's line of thinking in that he knew flat out that Fabian was planning to kill Maggie and possibly even Renata. He confronted with a gun to his head to get him to admit it. And Fabian still denied it. Renata's impressions of Negan and thoughts on Negan, she would have believed Fabian over Negan regardless of what Fabian was saying was true or not.

[01:04:07] And it would have just turned into another situation where Fabian would have been let loose back to his family again. And that puts Maggie and even Renata at risk. Negan saw the writing on the wall. He saw what needed to be done and he did it. Did he react very hastily? 100%. And I guess this is where I even have to look at myself. And I have to inspect myself.

[01:04:33] Because did I have any problem with Negan killing the Dama? Absolutely not. Nope, that made perfect sense. Had to be done. I just think Fabian could have been put in a cage and could have learned from his mistakes. Yes. I didn't think he needed to be executed. I think that's the main telling point of Negan went too far. He felt backed into a corner. And he also felt like he had to show Renata that she did not control him. That she did not own him. That she did not make the calls for him.

[01:05:04] Because here's the thing. What really stuck out to me in that moment was he had the character on the entire time he was talking to Renata and all that. And then she leaves. And the moment she leaves, the facade breaks. And Negan's face is screaming with, what the F did I just do? Oh my God. This is bad. This is not good. His face was very, very much like, oh shit. Do you think? Because there was a part of... I do.

[01:05:34] When I watched it the second time, knowing what had happened, I watched it with the eyes of knowing it. And I really saw a guy that was like, the facade broke down and his adrenaline pumped back down a little bit lower. He got out of Super Negan mode and was like, oh fuck. This is not good. This is a mess I'm going to have to worry about. Because again, he didn't just kill Fabian. And he knew it.

[01:06:02] He did look directly over at the dude Zed pet. And that also added to his look of like, oh shit. I want you to look back at the last five minutes and just watch his face during that scene. Because I thought it was really telling. Okay. No, that's totally fair. But I mean, again, I don't want people listening to my thoughts on this say like, oh, he's backing Negan 100%. No, I absolutely agree.

[01:06:30] He was way too hasty on that. And, you know, he could have handled that a little differently and not killed Fabian right away and did it that way. But I do want to just say like, I do see probably what Negan's thought process was. Oh, it makes perfect sense. He was an active threat to the person that Negan has decided that he is going to protect above all costs.

[01:06:55] And the most 100% guaranteed way to protect Maggie in that situation is to eliminate the threat. Not talk down the threat, not incarcerate the threat, eliminate the threat. So, again, I totally understand where his head's at. I just think, damn, it's going to be hard to walk this back community-wise and like get himself right with the community. And we got four episodes or three episodes to see how they do it.

[01:07:24] Yeah, well, I mean, and it was. And again, like I don't even think it was just a matter of protecting Maggie. That was the main part of it. But I think his thought process was also that Renata would never do what needed to be done. And he was showing her what needed to be done. I think that was a part of it, too. And I don't even mean it's just the killing. Like, I mean, like, as in punishing, no matter regardless of what the punishment was, whether it's jail, exile, death, whatever. Renata would not have punished Fabian at all. Correct.

[01:07:54] Like, or properly, rather. Right. She would make him publicly humiliate himself. But all that's going to do is fester his feelings of resentment and hatred. Exactly. I mean, she already publicly punished him one way, and it led him to want to kill. Yes. So all that was going to do was just further his drive. And Negan knew Fabian had to be punished. Was his punishment fitting? Probably not. He went way too far with it by killing him.

[01:08:21] But he still was proving the point that, like, you were not going to punish him. I had to do it. Yep. And I'm excited to see how that goes. It's the two extremes, and Maggie's going to fall in the middle. And this is where I think it's going to lead to Maggie leaning more towards Negan and being like, I need your help to be my justice system. My deputy. Exactly.

[01:08:47] Like, you can't kill, but we need to make sure people are kept in check. Absolutely. I'm excited to see how it plays. I really am, again, because of what I hoped to see when I started the episode and what I got. I didn't like it the first time. But the second time, seeing it better for the full picture on the season that they are giving us. Man, this is really good TV right now, dude. This is really good TV, and this is good storytelling.

[01:09:14] I like the fact that we've just entered the second half of the season, and things have just gotten a shit ton more complicated. They found a way to up the stakes without making a soap opera. This isn't, oh, the Dama cut off Herschel's toe. This is, no, Negan killed a threat that he deemed to be necessary, and what's the fallout of that going to look like in a civilized society? I can't wait.

[01:09:36] We've just gone from survival is the villain to survival and inner struggle is inner turmoil is now, or turmoil within is now also on top of all of that. How do you dispatch justice in a society? What is the proper way to dispatch justice in a post-apocalyptic society? Can't wait. Can't wait. Dude, I'm so looking forward to it.

[01:10:03] And I'm glad we got a, I thought, the moment that moment happened in the episode, my initial reaction was, oh, shit. Like, that was an oh, shit moment for me. And then immediately, oh, I can't wait to talk about this. Yes, definitely. I can't wait to talk about this was right there. But my immediate reaction, because I am such an Negan fan when that happened was, oh, shit. What? So we both said the same words, but in very different ways.

[01:10:32] Like, ah, shit. Ah, shit. Mine was, ah, shit. Negan, why do you make it so hard for me to defend you sometimes, buddy? Gosh darn it. And that's just it. It really is. It does. It becomes challenging to defend him. Here is Negan's career arc for me. And, like, the craziest comp I could try to figure out with of someone that just can't help but get out of their own damn way. And that is Robert Carlyle's Rumpelstiltskin from the TV show Once Upon a Time. Oh, that's a good comparison.

[01:11:02] Rumpelstiltskin is someone that I just love, but he is effing evil. You want to talk body counts? His is in the billions, I would imagine. He always finds the selfish decision to make, but, like, damned if up until the very last second of the series, I'm not still rooting for the son of a bitch. So I think Negan and Rumpelstiltskin are very. So that being said, like, I can't wait to see where Negan goes from here. Yeah, me neither.

[01:11:30] I want to kind of shift gears a little bit, and I want to talk about how this episode made me like Herschel even more. Damn, if he is not just finding ways every single week to drop the shtick from seasons one and two and just be, like, the raddest kid ever. And I love the fact that we had that whole speech last season with Herschel and Maggie telling Maggie, and we talked about it last week, too, because of this.

[01:11:58] This whole thing about him telling Maggie that I don't feel the same way for my father that you did because I never met him or anything like that. But then him fully admitting to Luis this episode that that's all an act. He does it just because he doesn't want to worry his mother. He feels the loss for his father, even though he never met him. He feels the loss for Glenn, but he just won't admit it to Maggie because he doesn't want Maggie to worry. He doesn't want his mother to worry.

[01:12:27] And I'm like, Jesus Christ, dude, like, kid, you are hitting my heart, like, so hard right now. Luis says it perfectly. Like, dude, you're a good son. Like, damn. And, like, as a dad, as someone that's been around kids, like, yeah, if I had had that conversation, that would be my exact same. Like, damn, man, like, you're a good kid, bro. Like, you've been through some shit, but you're a good kid.

[01:12:47] And then him presenting that gift to Luis of the picture of Marisol on the wall and furthering that comment that he says to him is that they're not gone. Like, as long as we remember them, they're never gone. Like, yes, they're gone, but they're not gone. Here's not here. Yes. Yeah. And him presenting that mural of Marisol to Luis and Luis's reaction to it. I'm like, good.

[01:13:14] Like, I have turned so hard on this kid. I and they've earned it. It is not a cheap turnaround. It has been really good character work in a very short amount of time. Again, the I'm not brainwashed anymore was very fast. But every single move from there has been correct with Herschel that you make him a character that we like. He's up there with Carl now for me of like just kids.

[01:13:42] I really like like Judith, Carl, Herschel. Yeah, man. I'm in. I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it was it was so good. Like, I'm like in two episodes, this show completely turned me around on Herschel. Yes. And now I'm actively rooting for him. Put them. Anyway, I know. Right. That's all of my notes for the episode. That's everything I had. The only other thing I I have in my notes that we didn't really talk about.

[01:14:09] And this happens during the whole Walker wrangling is when Soul Mary is at risk, like the rope is falling. The Terry Crews fireman, as you call them, is like struggling to hold him. And Renata is dead set on opening these gates and going in. Yeah. And Negan's like, if you do that, we are all dead. Yes. And I think this just further proves like Negan's lead, like Negan has the capability to be a leader

[01:14:38] and make those tough decisions, which I think Maggie is going to turn to more like when it comes to being a deputy or anything for him, because you could look at this as in like he has no regard for Soul Mary. And it's the return on investment. One life versus 12. You know, it's it's a it's a it's an equation, though. And it makes sense. It is an equation that makes sense. But I also think it's also Negan is looking at this situation.

[01:15:06] He sees the people that he has in this team. Soul Mary is not already gone. Like he has the faith that there is a possibility like, yes, you open this gate. We're all dead. But she could still get through this. Absolutely. And she does. And I think that's indicative of both. I think Negan is much more of a risk taker when it comes to believing in people's living up to the potential than Renata is.

[01:15:34] And that's why, again, I don't think any of the three potential leaders have every quality down. I don't think Maggie has every quality right. I don't think Renata has every quality right. And I don't think Negan has every quality right. I think combined, the three of them are probably the greatest leader of all time. But can they work together? Can they see eye to eye enough? Can they respect each other enough to know when to let someone lean into their expertise? They basically have to accept each other's faults. Yes.

[01:16:02] And put them aside so that they could work together as a team. And I don't know if that's ever going to happen, unfortunately. I don't either. But we've got three episodes to find out. This is very true. And we know one of them is going to be like a flash sideways. I know. It's probably going to be the penultimate. I'm guessing just the way the prestige TV works these days, the penultimate is going to be the quote unquote throwaway. You know, there's going to be a moment in the beginning, a moment in the end. The rest of it's going to be a bottle episode. I don't know.

[01:16:30] There is a particular moment in this episode that makes me think it could be next week's episode. And again, we're recording this on Tuesday before the episode has even aired. So even if we wanted to watch scenes from next week, we couldn't because the episode hasn't aired yet. Correct. So we have no idea. But there is a line during Maggie and Negan's heart to heart where Negan says to Maggie in another world, I think we could have been friends. Yes.

[01:16:59] And I think we're going to get that. Yes. To quote one spot at a time, that's Wish Realm. We're going to go to the Wish Realm and see what happens. I don't know if it's next week, but it's coming soon. And I'm excited to see they have earned the benefit of the doubt to tell the story they want to tell. They have earned that through and through. So I'm along for the ride. I'm here for it. I am kind of hoping as much as I want to see Beth and I want to see Emily Keeney and I

[01:17:27] want to see this alternate sideways with the limited amount of time we have left. I'm kind of hoping this flash sideways is not a full episode. Me too. I only want it to be maybe like a third of an episode. I think it's more likely to be two thirds of an episode. I think maybe 42 minutes, it'll probably be 30 minutes. All right. That's three quarters. But still, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Because then it only leaves us if it does.

[01:17:55] It's a full if it's a full episode, it only leaves us two episodes to finish this story. And I don't think that's enough time. No, because they didn't know if they were renewed going into the season for next season. So they probably wrote two endings and shot two endings just in case. So it'll be interesting because what story do they have to complete right now? It's just leadership of the new world. It's this whole power struggle. It's the power struggle. Yeah.

[01:18:24] It's the now this is a power triangle, unlike a love triangle, which is usually just a love acute angle. But yes. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for that. I've listened to rewatchables. Don't worry. Yeah. Going back to rewatch where I say a love triangle is not actually a triangle. It's usually just an acute angle. Yeah. Or an ugly angle. I don't know if I firmly believe that they wrote two episodes, I think, or two endings.

[01:18:50] I think they probably wrote planning to be renewed because The Walking Dead has such a relationship with AMC that if they were even at risk of getting canceled, AMC would have told them. That's true. That's true. AMC puts a lot of faith and backing behind Walking Dead and the franchise itself. So the goose is still laying eggs. Yeah. Yeah. I think they've probably, I think they probably know they're going to go with the season four. They just haven't made the official announcement yet.

[01:19:17] And I have a feeling we're probably not going to get that announcement until closer to October because that's usually when they announce it is usually around New York Comic Con and Paley Fest in New York. Yep. Yep. That sucks. So I have a feeling it's probably going to be around October. We're going to get the season four renewal announcement. Ah, fingers crossed. I hope so, man, because this season has been fun. So good. Fun. Yes.

[01:19:45] The only other note I have in addition to that is Soul Mary's pretty smart with that whole subway trap thing. Yeah, man. She's, uh, she's resourceful. She's the gadget. She's the tinkerer. I love it. I love it. I'm here for it. Yeah. And, and I kind of hinted at it a little bit, but the whole vibrator talk with Dillard and Negan was outstanding. Just outstanding. Yeah. But I think that covers everything I have with the episode too. Nice. I'm, I'm excited to see what comes next.

[01:20:11] Any final notes before we kind of move on and start to go into the wrap up of the episode? That's it for me, brother. All right. All right, then that is our show. Episode 714. As always, everybody, thank you for listening. Next episode, your feedback for this episode, Dead City Season 3, Episode 5, and then our

[01:20:40] breakdown of the Dead City Season 3, Episode 6, Genesis. And as I mentioned last week as well, if you did not get your feedback for Episode 4 in on time before we recorded, please feel free to leave it anyway. We'll still go back and double check. And anything we didn't get to with this quick turnaround, we will definitely make sure to mention on the, on the next episode as well. But if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all of our contact information right over at podcastica.com.

[01:21:10] And while you're there, check out other podcasts as well as our own content. So to speak of other podcasts, check out Run For Your Lives. They just covered Obsession. What a fun flick. What a just... I still need to watch that. It's just a great family movie. I showed it to my eight-year-old. No, I'm kidding. It is disturbingly beautiful. But no, Jason, again, we talked about last week. I cannot stress this enough. Jason, Jim, Kirk, they've started a new podcast for the new HBO series Lanterns.

[01:21:38] The podcast is called Casting Light, a Lanterns podcast. It's available on all the big platforms. But they're cross-posting the episodes on Wax Episodic, where Jason covers a bunch of other cool stuff. And again, check out Lanterns. It is super fun. And you can feel the Damon Lindelof right in Episode 1. And it feels so good. Again, speaking about Once Upon a Time, speaking about Lost, anytime I can get some of that Damon Lindelof goodness into my soul, I'm here for it.

[01:22:06] I still need to watch the first episode, but I will be watching it probably tomorrow as I'm packing and getting ready for my trip to Colorado. And then I will be watching Widow's Bay in the airport and on the plane during my trip to Colorado. Yeah, you will. And probably on my way back. Airport. Airport. I'm anxious to watch it as well. Can't wait to talk to you about it. So excited. Yeah. But in regards to our own content, we didn't publish it. We didn't talk about it last week. So I figured real quick, we can talk about it again this week.

[01:22:36] My other podcast, Wilhelm, it can be found at welcometowilhelm.com. Celebrity interviews, top five lists, movie reviews, all that fun stuff. My panel with Ross Marquand this coming weekend, audio of that panel will be on Wilhelm shortly after the weekend. So you'll be able to hear that if you go to that. But you can just search for Wilhelm on all the podcast platforms or go to welcometowilhelm.com for links to everything. There it is.

[01:23:01] And if you want to hear me talk about Phillies and not on this podcast, although we will get it in here, come check out the Quit Chasing Podcast wherever you find your podcasts. We are a little cheeky, a little reverent, always unqualified. We follow the Phils and whatever the hell else we want to in the entertainment world. This week, we're going to be discussing Pat McAfee's new country album. Yes, it's as terrible as you think it is. He has released a country album and we hate him.

[01:23:28] So we listen to it and we will give everyone our honest, honest takes. All right, you and I are going to, we're not going to do it now, but you and I are going to have to have a discussion on Pat McAfee because I'm a fan of Pat McAfee. Oh God. Purely because of his commentary style when he was with WWE, which he's no longer with. Right. But his chemistry with Michael Cole on commentary was fantastic. And I'm a fan of him because of that. But we'll discuss that at a later date. We can, we can discuss him.

[01:23:58] We can discuss Shane Gillis from my hometown that I can't stand. I can't wait. I'm excited for him. I'm, I'm with you on Shane Gillis. I'm, I'm not a fan of him. All he does is talk shit. That's all he's done since high school. He's not really a comedian. He's just a guy who talks shit on things, but it's fine. But now I need to go listen to this Pat McAfee country album because I am morbidly curious. You know what? Morbius is the right thing to channel. Because this is essentially the Morbius of music. Gotcha. It's Morbin time. It's McAfee time. Yeah.

[01:24:28] It's Morbin time. It's Morbin time. All right. So, and just another quick mention recommendation for this week. Always Sunny in Philadelphia is, is back. Check it out. It's the, the title of the first episode is Frank Marries a Corpse. And I'll leave it at that. That was like last season. Episode one was a, is it cake? Anyways, my recommendation. I forgot about that. That was a great one, man. My recommendation for this week though, is a show that's been out. The whole season's done. But I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[01:24:58] I just got caught up. But Life, Larry and the Pursuit of Happiness on HBO. It is Larry David's hilarious comedic take on if Larry David were inserted into longstanding historical events. It is. So if you like Larry David's sardonic wit and seeing him get his comeuppance, this is the show for you. Good. That's awesome. Yeah. So highly recommend it. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Renee Flint.

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