715: TWD: Dead City S3E6 "Genesis"

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[00:03:34] I don't suppose you'd want to come with you. I'm not disappointed, babe.

[00:04:13] What's up, Zedheads? Welcome to the podcast. I'm Ben. And I am Alex. And this is The Walking Dead 'Cast, episode 715. And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, Dead City, season three, episode six, Genesis. Let me, okay. Nope. We, you and I have been holding off, like, we've been like, as we were prepping for this, we're like, we wanted to start talking about this episode right away. We're like, no, no, save our thoughts

[00:04:41] for the podcast. Save our thoughts for the podcast. It's real tough. And, and we do have some feedback from episode five that we have to get through first, as we always do. Yes. But I just want to say, dude, did not think an episode of Dead City would almost make me fucking cry. Fascinatingly enough, that's the one emotion I didn't feel was, was tears coming, but, and,

[00:05:10] and I will tease and then we'll go into the feedback with the same thing I just said to you, which is, I believe this might be the most, one of the most important episodes in Walking Dead history. Uh, but I also like to, uh, over stylize things. So let's see what the folks think. Well, before, before we do that, um, I want to play a little piece for, uh, podcastica listeners.

[00:05:35] And, and I did get this. So for those of you that might not remember, as I mentioned, I was in Colorado Springs this past weekend, working Colorado Springs Comic Con. And I got to work very, very closely with a, someone, anybody who's watched the Walking Dead knows, and that's Ross Marquand, uh, moderated his panel again. Unfortunately, we lost the audio, so I won't have the audio of the panel, but you know, I worked with him, saw him a bunch this weekend

[00:06:01] and I got him to record a quick little something for mainly for the Zed heads, for people that are part of the Patreon group. But, I'm gonna play it anyway for people who are podcastica listeners who may not be in the Patreon group. Just know when he says Zed heads, it is implied to all of you listeners out there. Whether you are an official Zed head, and I use quotation marks that people can't see. He did, guys. I can vouch.

[00:06:31] Right. Uh, whether you are an official Zed head by signing up for the Patreon, or you are simply a Zed head in spirit by listening to the podcast. Uh, a quick little message from Ross Marquand to all of you. Hello, this is Ross Marquand from The Walking Dead. I play Aaron, and I want to say hi to the Zed heads. Yeah. It gets me every time. It's the yeah. The little yeah. It's the yeah at the end. Oh, I love it. I love it. Uh, love Ross Marquand, man.

[00:06:59] Yeah. If you're in the Zed head group, uh, there's video of that as well. Uh, so if you are a Zed head and you didn't get to see it, uh, just search the feed and it'll be there. But yeah, it was so awesome for Ross to do that. Like I said, we got to work very, very closely all weekend, hung out all weekend, and he was very happy to do that as well. I love it. So, uh, in preparation for, uh, Avengers Doomsday coming out, um, I've been watching the, uh, Avengers movies, just the Avengers movies, which is a fascinating, like

[00:07:28] one and then two, uh, and then civil war. And then I kind of started to watch the Spider-Man cause like, why not? Uh, but anyway, so I was just watching, um, Infinity War last night and when Ross showed up on Vormir, I was like, Hey, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. Red Skull, baby. I was just going to say for anybody who might not know Ross voiced Red Skull for the, uh, for the movie. So did he voice as well as like mocap? Like, was that his face? He did mocap as well.

[00:07:58] Yeah. And I got to tell you, they did such a good job because you cannot see him in Red Skull. Like it's a, it's a really good rendering. Like I was looking for Ross and I got, I got lost in the character. So God love him. He's a great voice actor. He's done a number of characters in the, in the Marvel universe at this point. I mean, he's currently Professor X and Apocalypse in X-Men 97. He was Red Skull as we mentioned

[00:08:24] in Infinity War, but he was also Red Skull and Ultron in the series. Oh, that's so true. He's a phenomenal voice actor and, and so happy that he was able to give some love to the Zed heads. And it was so funny too, cause during our panel, we mentioned how he didn't get to do any voices in the Marvel zombies episodes of, uh, of what if, cause he said, he was like, that's right in my wheelhouse. He's like, I don't know why they didn't bring me in to do that. That's a great, that's a great point.

[00:08:52] He's like Marvel and zombies. He's like, that's my, he's like, that's my, he's like, that's my bread and butter right there. Damn son of a gun. All right. Fair enough. So, but as you mentioned, we do have some feedback for episode five. So let's get into that now. Um, and I'm trying to see how do we got to time this so that you get, uh, so I'm just doing Colin from now on, which I'm fine with. I, I have limbered up the

[00:09:20] loosest lips in the land and I am here many, many, many, many, many to execute. Well, I, and I did the first couple of Colin. So we figured we'll give you a couple shots at it. That's so true. And honestly, I want to get tripped up Colin. Like I'm not, I'm not saying I'm throwing down the infinity gauntlet and saying you haven't gotten me yet, but you haven't gotten me yet. So keep trying and we'll see if we can twist this tongue. There you go. Uh, but yeah, why don't you kick us off?

[00:09:46] All right. First bit of feedback comes from Deborah Ulmer. Hi, Ben and Alex. I like this leadership council meeting of the minds between Renata and Maggie Negan and Dillard. Although them picking their away team was a little movie cheesy. Lol. Their mission went well and they were celebrating. I was thinking things are going way too good. When is the other shoe going to drop? Then when the guy from the bricks comes to vent to the wrong person about Maggie, I knew he'd signed his death warrant. I guess that it was only a matter

[00:10:14] of time. Renata was right. Negan snapped. I wonder whose side Maggie will end up on. Take care y'all. Yeah. We still don't have an answer to that question too, either after this episode six and I spoiler in a sense, entertainment weekly spoiled that like two days ago that this was the flashback episode, which I hadn't watched it yet. And they were like, Oh, episode six,

[00:10:40] Genesis, the flashback episode. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. I guess. Um, so I thought, well, flash flash sideways. You're right. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Yes. Yes. Yes. The one of the most unique we'll get into it. Oh man. It's so hard not to get there. Um, well, and you know, what's funny too, is I even called last week when Negan said to Maggie in another life, we might've been friends. And I was like, how much do you want to make a bet? The next episode that might be our little tease that the next episode is the, the what if episode,

[00:11:10] the name Genesis was also very telling. If ever there was going to be a sideways story, Genesis made a lot of sense. Yeah. Um, but awesome feedback, Dem Debra. Thank you so much. Yeah. Uh, next feedback comes from Dre Minoni. When I hit play on the episode this week, I had to stop and check if I was on the right episode. Seemed like a time jump from the cliffhanger we had last time, but I got over it and accepted that we eventually got in, got the info we needed

[00:11:37] on what happened post earthquake quote unquote earthquake. I was really not sure how to feel about the build their death, uh, dead squad scene where it all flashed up to those montages of who they were talking about. Maybe it was sort of comic book style. I felt like it was cheesy and immediately wondered what you all would say about it. I got so scared that something was going to happen between Maggie and Negan at the bar. I'm just not sure I can believe she would be that friendly with

[00:12:06] him or maybe it's just so different from what we've seen. I can't accept it yet. In the end, I think Negan is protecting Maggie first and foremost, and that will supersede any rules from Renata. Do I like that Negan is going to turn into the big bad again? Question mark. Not really, but it will be interesting to see whose side Maggie ends up on. So a lot to unpack. Yeah. I don't know if I necessarily buy Negan's going big bad.

[00:12:34] I think this show has zigged every single time I expected them to zag and to make Negan the big bad again, just seems too easy. And this show is showing you that they can present nuanced ways of looking at that exact question. What is a big bad? What does a big bad mean? Because if he's a big bad,

[00:12:58] but in the protection of people that we love, like we're kind of okay with that. So, um, I don't think necessarily that they're shaping Negan up to be a big bad, but a big hurdle for sure. Well, I mean, and even, and this was a prediction I made last week too, when we were breaking down the episode is that like, like you said, they zig when we think they're going to zag. I think the biggest zig when we think they're going to zag is Maggie siding with Negan.

[00:13:25] I think that's very, very possible. And that's very, very likely. I think when we get to the end of the Genesis episode, I have some questions about the little tidbits of information that we've learned. Um, but I am so excited to see how exactly they did it. And so another thing I want to bring up though, is the last two messages now have discussed the cheesy getting the group together montage.

[00:13:54] And I feel like maybe we didn't do enough justice the first time around of explaining it because man, Rick and Morty explained it perfectly, but the getting the gang together montage is a tried and true staple. What did you think of how they presented the names to us and how they gave us all of that? And like, where is a standup against the Deadpools and the Oceans 11s and the Rick and Mortys and all that jazz? Oh, it's so funny that you mentioned the Oceans 11s because that's exactly what I thought about it

[00:14:22] when it happened. Like, yeah, it was, yeah, it's literally like it wasn't, it played out like a heist movie. Didn't Fast Five do a getting the gang together montage? Like after Tokyo Drift when they realized, hey, we can actually do this really well. And like they brought everyone back. Sort of. There's played out over a longer period of time in the movie. It wasn't like a quick montage. That's true. It wasn't this. But I mean, those montages when done well are always fun. Oh, the Italian job.

[00:14:49] Yeah, I didn't mind it at all. I thought it was like a nice little, um, a nice little play on that trope. And I enjoyed it. I mean, it's the only, it's not like they're doing the cheesy stuff like that every episode. We got it one time and they had fun with it. They knew damn well it was cheesy and they were perfectly fine with that. They were like, yeah, we're just going to lean into this. This is too much fun not to. And I love that about this series and what they're doing this year.

[00:15:14] Yeah, me too. So I'm, I'm not, I didn't mind it at all. I actually thought it was kind of fun, but yes. So, uh, thank you so much for the feedback, Dre. That was fantastic. Yes. All right. Well, Ben, it's time. It's time. It's still well o'clock. Um, and I will say one of the, uh, one of the better tributes to Tim Curry I saw was from Colin Stilwell, um, shortly after they announced,

[00:15:41] uh, Mr. Curry's passing. So Colin wanted to mention, I see you brother. I see you. But as it relates to this episode, Colin emailed in to say, I'm going to take this one seriously for once. Cause I'm concerned. I noticed right off the bat pun, not intended that the atmosphere is darker. Are we even in the walking dead universe anymore? It feels like Louise and Herschel's are in ER. If Catherine Heigl didn't kill JDM. Damn, that's deep cut brother.

[00:16:08] Is that a reference to it? Was JDM in ER? All of that is factual. Yes. JDM was in ER and he was dating slash Mary slash engaged to Catherine Heigl's character shortly after he died of something. She then left the show. I don't know if it was ER or if it was gray's. It may have been gray's. Okay. I don't watch any of those. I also don't want to pick it. So, um, the, the best I'll

[00:16:34] give you a scrub. I did say that. Yes. You just said you don't watch the pit. I don't know. I have no interest in the pit at all. Oh, okay. If I, if I have to watch widow's Bay on your recommendation, sir, you need to watch the pit on mine. Oh man. First off I've right. First off, I will watch the pit when you watch the wire. Okay. The world wants you to watch widow's Bay. When you watch the wire, which everybody says, including me, one of the greatest shows of all

[00:17:01] time. I will watch the pit, which everyone says, including you is one of the greatest shows on TV right now. So that I will go episode for episode pit and wire with you. And just like that, I bought myself seven years before I have to catch in on that. You're talking like you're talking like two short seasons as opposed to like what? Like seven? I said four. First off four, 10 episode

[00:17:25] seasons on HBO. But like I said, I'll go episode for episode. You only have to go as long as I go, but you're going to want to keep going. And then if you go, I'm locked in to four seasons worth of the pit. Cause I'm a man of honor. I'm a man of my word. That has a code. We now return you to your regularly scheduled feedback, which is from Colin Stillwell. Oh my God, we're back there. So anyways, second paragraph of Colin's email. Uh, we're recruiting the expenda beefcakes of New York to

[00:17:54] be trusted in a classic Buffalo jump into Vore Canyon. Count me in. I understood three words in that sentence. This episode turned into a guar concert, real lickety split. And just like that, the plan stopped working. Don't fall bitch. She made crisis averted side tangent. I think I, oh my gosh, I think I hate Herschel so much because he looks just like my cousin. Who's a

[00:18:17] thieving pill popper in Kansas city. I want my money, Nick Glenn's dead. Hold on. I have to restart this paragraph side tangent. I think I hate Herschel so much because he looks like my cousin. Who's a thieving pill popper in Kansas city. I want my money back. Nick Glenn's dead. Herschel, like a Texas mosquito on the windshield of fate. Get over it doggy. Maggie's leather daddy doppelgangers got the hots for Dillard. So much for staying serious.

[00:18:46] Oh, Negan is back, baby. Fuck you. Fabian, you festering fuck stick. Don't fuck with a man in love with a sociopath. Looks like next week is going to be a filler episode with more. It's me, Margaret pop props. If you know, Ray Stevens and understand the reference. I don't see us. Maybe Ben does. Uh, I, I know Ray Stevens, but I don't get the reference. So I probably missed it. So apologies. I'll be honest as we don't read these in advance. When I saw it to me, Margaret,

[00:19:14] I had to go Mario with it. Um, Colin, I'm going to give you a half credit for getting me this time because the side tangent paragraph, I didn't, here's the thing. I did not read the punctuation. So I was running on sentences and, and the thing I appreciate you about you, Colin is you put the commas and the periods where you want them to be. And my vow to you is I will be better at adhering to that moving forward. I'm, I'm better than what I showed today. And that makes me upset.

[00:19:43] That's totally fair. Totally fair. Um, but Colin, fantastic feedback. We love it as always. Uh, all right. And our last piece of feedback that is not a voicemail. Okay. I was about to say, yep. Uh, comes from, uh, grippy dobelino. Is it just me or was Fabian's, uh, or was Fabian's face look swollen from a bee sting? I really, really, really, really, I, there's a couple of missing

[00:20:09] words in here. So I'm going to try and fill in. Uh, I really, really, really like Jimmy Simpson's carrot. I think Jimmy Simpson's. Yep. Yeah. Think Jimmy Simpson's character is a serial killer who ends up taking out his crush and karaoke partner. I hope that doesn't happen. Hmm. Uh, a sort of hidden enemy within storyline. I knew the thief was not going to live to the end of the episode, especially as soon as he started having a private and intimate conversation with Negan.

[00:20:36] And some may have thought that Negan was turning on Maggie, but I knew he was just baiting. The team assembly montage was straight out of an MCU movie. I'm putting together a team, yada, yada, yada. In the power struggle of the three of them, Negan is the fuse that just got lit. Never before episode four was I all, this is going to go wrong. Betrayal. Okay. This old guy's a

[00:21:02] psycho. Okay. His group is of mercy is mercenaries and or cannibals. Uh, to my disappointment, everything went well and people were normal. That's what we talked about last week. Zigs and zags, man. Yep. How very un-walking dead. LOL. Now I'm all Herschel is a spy, sort of like I was Enid is a spy. I don't know if I, like I said, I think we're past that at this point.

[00:21:29] Oh, we're so, that's not what they're doing guys. Love you. Yeah. Uh, he's totally going to shank the good doctor and smear his face on the mirror of his wife. LOL. That caught that. I'd watch that. I would be like, okay, let's cook brother. Let's see what you got. And then Herschel is finally going to point blank Negan with a headshot. Uh, notice Herschel mentioned that he lost his father, but did

[00:21:53] not mention who was responsible. That's a good point. Seriously though, that guy's facial features made him look swollen. I guess we're back to, uh, Oh God, what was his name? I already forgot. Fabian, Fabian, Fabian, Fabian. It was already mentioned. Um, I also didn't pick up on his thriving ways until Renata called him out. Neither did I, uh, tell Jason I was an Ash versus evil dead,

[00:22:20] uh, rewatch. Um, I think that's rewatch fan. Um, I did this on my own a few weeks ago and once, and once ached when I knew the very end was on the brink sigh. Uh, thank you for that. Um, like I said, there was a couple of missing words in there. I was trying my best to fill in as we went through. I think you did a great job and, uh, you know what? So here's the thing I read again.

[00:22:47] Apparently I get a lot of my news from entertainment weekly. And the reason for that is because I work in an office and we all just have to run out the clock somehow folks. We all just have to get the four 30s. Somehow entertainment weekly is a quality magazine. I used to subscribe to it. And I often think about resubscribing, resubscribing it, man of the print media. It was one of my favorite, the target on the back. I'm a huge sucker for a good back page, like sports illustrated

[00:23:13] with Rick Riley or ESPN page two with a bill Simmons. And then ESPN when they had the target or not ESPN EW when they had the target on the back page, that was amazing. But anyways, they were talking about how this was one of what you what's up. Nothing. I was just yawning. Sorry. Yawning. I got you guys. It's late. It's late. I promise. Um, but no, so Fabian, he has not had a lot of acting credits. This was like one of his first ever acting gigs. Um, and I

[00:23:39] thought that was very, very interesting because I had also thought that some of his acting last week was like a little, like, huh, not up to par with everyone else that had been on screen. But then when I found out, like he's only been two other or three other things like, okay, I get this guy now. Like that's, that's an adequate performance given that. So I don't know. I thought he did the job admirably. No, I thought he did a great job. In all honesty, I didn't even know I could, I wouldn't have even been able to tell that that was one of his first acting gigs.

[00:24:08] He was, he was solid. Yeah. So I'm, I'm not complaining about that one bit. I thought he was really, I thought he was really solid. But having said that grippy swollen face from a bee sting, I see it. I see it a hundred percent. Well, I mean, he's got a little bit more to worry about than a bee sting now at this point. Well, that's true. Actually his worries are pretty much over. I mean, he is worry free, my friend. We can all wish to be so anyways.

[00:24:34] So this episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT. For bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans.

[00:25:35] Your favorite friend group is back. FX is adults follows five roommates living in New brought to you by Google Chrome. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome check responses, set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus. Ah, but as I mentioned, we do have a couple voicemails to play as well this week.

[00:26:05] The first one coming from Rebecca Cantu Davidson. So let's play that now. Hey, Ben and Alex. This is Rebecca from Houston. It's one of my submit my feedback on this last episode of Dead City. I am here for this Negan. I'm here for this storyline. I think that was

[00:26:26] very brave of the writers to be like, let's make New York City a sanctuary, like an actual sanctuary with Maggie, Renata and Luis heading it. I'm here for it. And I always thought, oh, Negan should be head of security because he don't give a fuck. And I'm good with that. And so he doesn't want to be part of the community because he doesn't want to like, follow all the rules. But he's in the community.

[00:26:56] Like, I don't know why he's fooling himself. He's a part of it because they're obviously going to him for advice or like to consult him and get his input to make big decisions. So he's in it no matter what he thinks. I was like, did Maggie just kiss Luis? And then to realize she was imagining it. I was here for it. He's hot. She's beautiful. She is hopefully feeling safe again that she can

[00:27:25] open her heart to new people. Obviously, we all love Glenn. That'll never change. I think she'll always love Glenn. That'll never change. But her girl could use some fun too, you know? So I'm here for it. Whether or not it happens. I think next episode is going to be a lot of hallucinations or dreams. So I'm curious to see how that's going to pan out from what I've seen in the previews. Oops, spoiler alert. Anyway, Negan there at the end, like, oh, this motherfucker wants to

[00:27:54] come for Maggie. He is not standing for it. And I love it. I love Negan who, you know, this show is not like morally black and white. Like there's, there's, it's so nuanced. Like this guy was going to be a threat. And so we eliminate the threat. That's what we do in the zombie apocalypse. Or he could just take his ass back to the bricks. Like ain't nobody like begging

[00:28:21] him to stay. Like he can just go, but no, he wants to be a dumbass and steal from the pantry. Like what the fuck? That's just gross, shitty behavior. So I'm here for it. Whatever. Also, I want to shout out to Negan. I think it was episode three when he had those two leaders of those fighting groups or whatever that had washed up. Okay. Monchor. And he had the leaders hanging and he has Lucille and he

[00:28:46] started going, dale, dale, dale. And I'm like, wait a minute. What? So that's our song when we hit piñatas in Mexican culture. So the song goes, dale, dale, dale. No pierdas el tino. Porque si lo pierdes, pierdes el camino. Ya le diste una. Ya le diste dos. Ya le diste tres. Y tu tiempo se acabó. So that's how we time out when the kids have their turns at hitting the piñatas. So nobody has

[00:29:12] too much of a time. So it's pretty easy just to keep track of how long the kids have been hitting the piñata. Because you want to make sure everybody has a chance before it bursts. But anyway, that was so cool. So what the song says is hit it, hit it, hit it. Don't lose your aim. Because if you lose your aim, you'll lose your way. You've hit it once. You've hit it twice. Now you've hit it three times and your time is up. So anyway, I'm enjoying the coverage. I'm excited

[00:29:37] for the rest of the season. Talk to y'all later. Bye. That was awesome. Thank you so much, Rebecca. And thank you for pointing out that the three years of Spanish I took between high school and college were completely wasted money. Because you then translated it and I was like, oh man, I got like half a word right in that entire sonnet. But that was delightful. Thank you so much. Well, and what's funny too is like I've actually been taking Spanish through Duolingo.

[00:30:04] Like I'm on like an almost 200 day streak doing it because I wanted to learn Italian. And then I talked to an actual like somebody who was from Italy and he told me learn Spanish first because like they go so hand in hand. And once you can pick up Spanish, you can pick up Italian so much quicker. So I've been taking Italian and I haven't gotten to any of that point yet. But just the knowing now

[00:30:30] that that's like an actual song that people sing when they do pinatas, that makes me like that scene even more now. Me too. It makes it that much more valid and that much less silly. Yeah. And it makes me like Negan more. The fact that Negan even knew that too. Yeah. That's fascinating. And I can only wonder where it would have learned man. What a fascinating character. But thank you so much, Rebecca. That was awesome.

[00:30:57] And Rebecca, I also like the point that you made too about like if Fabian had that much of a problem, like fucking hit the bricks, like literally go back to the bricks. I get, I guess my only, cause I thought of that too. And the only thing I could think back was like, okay, so his entire family was convinced about staying in, in Manhattan. So that maybe that's why like he didn't want to go to the bricks because no one was going to go with him. That's the only thing I can think of in that way. Yeah, I guess so. Um, but no, thank you for

[00:31:27] that, Rebecca. That was great. I appreciate you sending that in. Uh, but of course we have one more, excuse me, one more piece of feedback and that comes from our friend, Steve Brown. So let's play that. Hello, walking dead cast. This is Steve. Uh, this is going to be for the next episode of the walking dead, dead city season three, uh, episode five Imperials. Did she just said that Mason Dillard's vertical, what is it? Vertical? Uh, a giant vertical food

[00:31:55] chain is what she said that Dillard is directing them to do. Well, how much time has passed? This is the sinkhole. And now you got to watch out for falling walkers. Uh, I get what Renata just did mentioning the tuna casserole thing about Negan killing the Dama, right? Oh, they're going to select a dirty dozen to do this mission. Now we have the planning stage. They got their dozen. No New York city. You know well enough what building this is that has Haven on it. I'm sure you guys do. Okay. Good throw lady.

[00:32:23] And now she's going to zip line across all these whoppers walk walk walkers. Okay. So the plan is she's drawing them away from the doors with her whistle and flares. And now they're going to let just a few of them out each time to get them into these trucks. See, they're setting up like a gauntlet. Oh, you better keep your feet up. How are there any rats left in there? Oh, at least Dillard doesn't seem to be talking to any of them. Hey, that was tense, but at least she made it

[00:32:48] across. Oh, Dillard and Renata singing karaoke. So how often are they going to have to go to this building and get walkers this way? I'm just wondering because it can't be a, it can't be a totally endless supply, right? Oh, this isn't going to be good. They go down here to see Dillard's play things. And while Negan and Maggie are having their discussion here at the bar, you can see the painting is still up behind him, the boobies. Oh, and here's Renata walking through the halls here in the sounds of electricity running 24 seven. Oh, and Renata figured out this guy is stealing food.

[00:33:17] And okay, so this is a family that came from the bricks with Maggie. Interesting. Oh, that's a lot for her to carry back by herself, dude. But now he's having to make amends in front of the whole group. It's interesting. Everything that Ron is saying about Negan is also about Dillard, but they don't know it's about Dillard. Oh, and now Fabian's talking rebellion, revolution, and Negan's trying to talk him out of it, maybe. Oh, and now Renata's here. And what? Wow. Negan's got a gun to this guy's head. I don't know what's going to happen. Oh,

[00:33:43] I did not see that coming. He just shot that guy in the head. Oh, and that's the end. And unfortunately I'm going out of town, so I might miss the last few weeks, but I'll be listening for sure. Thanks guys. Oh no, buddy. I feel like Steve, hang up. Thank you. Steve, I feel like don't listen if you haven't watched, cause I'm going to spoil shit all day, all day,

[00:34:08] but you need to watch, like, here's the thing, Steve, Steve, Steve, if you haven't watched Genesis yet, turn it off and wait and watch it. And then listen, because you need to experience this show in real time or just like watch it before you listen to us, Jim Oaks talk about it. You have to watch this man. Well, and I think it might be more like, I think he probably is still going to be watching. He just may not be able to leave us feedback every week because he's going to be away.

[00:34:35] So I'll accept that, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, I hope that's the case because Steve, I'm going to be right there. I'm right there with Alex. Uh, if, if you're listening at this point and you haven't watched Genesis yet, uh, stop, just stop listening until you get the chance because I have a feeling between everything that Genesis does and the next two episodes being the penultimate and the finale. I can't believe we're already at the penultimate and finale next week.

[00:35:00] I, I feel like last year it felt like such a slog to get to this point. Yeah. And this has felt like a time warp. Oh, um, Oh, I didn't mean to, it just kind of happened. Uh, but no, this is felt just step right away from that. And then I jumped to the left. Um, yeah, so it, it, this has been

[00:35:26] one of the best seasons. So this has been the best season of dead city so far. It's not even close. It wasn't a high bar to, to, it really, now that we're getting this, I'm realizing how much better. We made the show sound better than it actually was. And we didn't, we didn't realize it until after watching this season. Yeah. So once I see what was capable, I'm actually upset. We didn't get

[00:35:49] more of this in seasons one and two. And I'm like, Oh wow. One and two really sucked. Like I, okay. All right. Maybe I'm being too harsh. I don't think it sucked compared to three. Everything is going to suck. I mean, Bruegel was fun, but they didn't get enough time with him. The Dama was a waste of time. New Republic was stupid. They have yet to make a misstep this season with any characters, any groups, any story beats. And I feel like the first two seasons

[00:36:18] were chock full of missteps, but it was just charming enough and just compelling enough that we kept going. We wanted to see what happened next. Like it was a good enough story to keep us interested, but like it didn't reward us for sticking with it per se. Yeah, exactly. And I feel rewarded now. I mean, my God, this season started with the Dama and the Croat still alive and look at where we are now. We are light years away from

[00:36:45] any of that nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like we talked about earlier too, like I, I, I enjoy the fact that they gave us one episode to write off the Croat, another episode to write off the Dama. And now here we are. And it makes me wonder what this season, what they could have done had they extended this season to 10 episodes rather than eight so that we still had two more episodes to tell this. Like we got two extra episodes this season, but we're going to use them to write off

[00:37:15] Croat, write off Dama. And then episode two, now we're telling our eight season, eight episode story. Yes. And I mean, I don't know, like Star Wars and parts of the MCU have been able to tell phenomenally compelling one hour, six episode stories. I think, you know, Loki is a, is a prime example, as is Andor. Um, all of that was nine episodes, but I think they're doing a really good job of telling

[00:37:43] a self-contained story. I thought it was a bold choice to give us an episode that in the grand scheme of things changes nothing, nothing about the story that we're being told other than it's giving us one of the most fascinating bits of context and fascinating bits of exposition and just showing

[00:38:08] us that no matter what we think, there are certain characteristics about these two characters that are going to persist in ways that we don't always anticipate, but they're there. Um, and it's just, it was really bold storytelling to essentially give us a throwaway episode because even Morgan and the cheese man, in a sense advanced the story because, Oh, we just found out that the wolf was captured.

[00:38:33] And this gave us a bit of an understanding of why Morgan has felt and done some of these things. This story told us nothing new other than this is like the, it gave us the core understanding of who these characters are and what their biggest foibles are and what they both need from each other to get past their biggest foibles. It's such good storytelling and it's such a bold choice to throw

[00:38:59] this in here, man. Well, so with that said, thank you everybody for the feedback from episode five, but let's, let's get, yeah, let's get into episode six. So read off the plot summary. I didn't even realize we had a plot summary. I totally forgot that we hadn't started this. Okay. Plot summary. What if Maggie and Negan had met in another life? This week, we take a detour from the story, transporting us into an alternate timeline where the apocalypse never happened. And Maggie

[00:39:27] and Negan cross paths as complete strangers in New York city with Maggie struggling over whether to let go of the family farm and Negan wrestling with demons of his own, a chance encounter turns into an unexpected day together that reveals just how much these two characters might have had in common under very different circumstances from roasted chestnuts and batting cages to fortune tellers, family regrets, and some surprisingly honest conversations. Their brief friendship offers

[00:39:55] a fascinating glimpse of the people Maggie and Negan could have become without walkers, saviors, Glenn, and everything else that ultimately came between them. What if I do this week summary, fantastic summary. That was just, that was lyrical, man. That has a nice little just flowing quality. I enjoyed reading that. All right. I mean, and it's like, it's usually the first thing I do as soon as I finished watching

[00:40:20] the episode because I want it fresh in my head. A hundred percent. So yeah. Um, and I love how our podcasting makes it sound like it's a refreshing commercial because I could hear you're drinking in the ice. You know, the thing of, you have to stay hydrated folks. You have to stay hydrated and I don't like tepid water. So yeah. No, it's totally fine. I mean, the only other things you would have heard from my end, cause I muted the mic is me coughing on my vape. Oh, we've all been

[00:40:49] there. My friend, we have all been there. Um, what an episode. So let me tell you, please. It's been instinctual. So, I mean, if you haven't figured it out at this point, like Alex and I record before the episodes air. So clearly we have access to the episodes before they air and we now at this point have access to the rest of the season, but we don't watch ahead until we record, until after

[00:41:17] we record of that particular episode, because we don't want ideas and thoughts and theories blending in this one. This was the hardest for me to resist going into the penultimate episode. When this episode ended, I, so I could not agree more and I'm so happy that we both do have the control because, um, now after we finish this, if we want, we can go watch it, which is. Yeah. And

[00:41:46] there's a part of me that's thinking about watching it as I'm editing this episode. Ooh, that's a ballsy choice and I'm here for it. Um, but what a great, like, okay, I don't know what the term for pre penultimate is. I'm going to call it the parapenultimate. I don't know if that's right at all, but sure. The episode before the penultimate episode. So as far as parapenultimate episodes go, this was a fascinating decision. Like I alluded to the, the choice to just give

[00:42:14] us a completely unnecessary sideways glance that isn't premeditated. This isn't either Negan or Maggie's delusions or thought processes. They're just saying, here's a, what if enjoy bold. Yeah. I mean, and it's bold in a sense that like you said, it's interesting storytelling. They're throwing it in the mix, but I do realize that there are a number of people that are going

[00:42:42] to, and there's a part of me that feels the same way. It is just a filler episode. You did, did we need, okay. I want to, I want to phrase this carefully. I know, but go ahead. All right, go ahead. I was going to say, did we need this episode? And in some degrees, absolutely. We needed this episode and in others, we could have done that without it, but I love that we got it. I don't want that to, I don't want that to sound disparaging. I'm really happy. We got this episode.

[00:43:12] So, all right, this is something I go over with my 12 and eight year old constantly because they are, are always saying, I need, I need, I need. And the question I ask them is, do we need it or do we want it? We, I firmly believe needed this episode. We want the next episode to see what happens, but this episode is so unbelievably important to understanding the thesis statement of both

[00:43:41] Negan and Maggie. I don't know if this is stepping on toes of later points, but like the thesis, the thesis point of Negan is no matter what, he cannot help his impulses. Even if they're impulses for good, he cannot stop himself. Negan's going to Negan and Maggie is always going to be incapable of letting go of the past. Yes. Letting go because she's doing it with Glenn. She's doing

[00:44:10] it with the farm in no matter what timeline Maggie is so close. She is tasting moving on. And then man, one phone call and they said, no, no, no, we're right back. Negan is on the phone and he's so close to being a better person, but then damned, if he doesn't see the guy that deserves to die. I know I'm going to go and say it's a little street justice, but like, damn it, Negan, of course he did it.

[00:44:35] And it's just, it's, it's heartbreaking. This is a heartbreaking episode because the thing, go ahead. I said it at the top of the episode, dude. Like the one emotion that I experienced that you didn't was like, there were legit tears, like building up in certain scenes of this in particular when Maggie stops him from killing Alan the first time. Yes. Like that scene, like there was a lot of emotion in that scene. Cause Negan was, was on the verge of tears doing

[00:45:04] the Ober and Martel of you tell me, you say what you did to her. You tell me what you did to my sister. Like, and, and the way that his voice was cracking and his face was breaking. Um, it was really powerful. Then you're right with Maggie coming in of like, dude, don't be this. Like you're better than this, but you have to choose to be better than this. It was so good. Yeah. Like I said, that scene had me in like starting to weld up a little bit. Like I was

[00:45:32] getting emotional and there was parts of me that was like in my head, I'm screaming. I'm like, you were getting emotional at the walking dead and of all shows dead city. Yeah. Cause at least walking dead proper, you get the right stuff with Carl. You get the right stuff with Judith. Fucking Sophia. So many. Oh man. Sophia's, you know, fascinatingly enough, Merle broke me just because of how much it broke Daryl. I remember that one actually hit me real hard to see Daryl,

[00:45:59] Mr. Cool, tough man break down the way he did. And just, oh, I'm actually tearing up thinking about watching Merle ambling, ambling toward Daryl and Daryl knowing as to put him down. Oh man. But anyways, yeah, this was, this was such a necessary piece of storytelling to understand how both of them are going to get in their own ways moving forward or what that final hurdle needs to be in

[00:46:26] these last two episodes. And it's so good. And what, and what I think makes the Maggie element of it so complicated is like you said, there are elements of this episode that make us, that show us that no matter what happens, Maggie has a hard time moving on and getting past things. But I don't think that's also completely the case too, because in that sense, that would mean that Maggie could

[00:46:50] never accept being friends with Negan. Whereas we've seen, but this episode also told us, also taught us that when it comes to Negan, Negan is the exception to the rule. Like we see how kindred they are with each other and how that fortune teller tells us like, these guys are, you are intertwined. You are, your souls are connected in one way or another. And that connection is always going to be there.

[00:47:20] So no matter what happens in Maggie's life where she can't move on and she can't get past it, Negan is the exception to the rule because of that connection that they are, because of that connection that they have. Interesting. Interesting. I hadn't considered that, but now that you say that, I kind of like that interpretation a lot. Yeah. I mean, because look at everything that happened with them in this flash sideways. I mean,

[00:47:47] granted it's a what if episode and a what if could be anything. It could be, you know, what if these two did meet, what would happen? Or is it a, just a, what if in general, like what if the apocalypse never happened? Well then they still would have met in their, they're, they do have that connection to each other. The happenstance moment still occurs. Yeah. Um, so, all right. I, I guess we've bounced all over the place folks. You're welcome. That's kind of what we do, but maybe just to go back to the front

[00:48:14] end of when, first off, great smash cut from taking us back to the end of last week's episode. And again, seeing a little bit more of Negan's, I can't tell if it's say, oh shit, what did I just do? Or like, okay, this is where I'm at. I, I, Negan gone Negan, here we are. And then the Dillard piece, but then the smash cut to bring in good old, uh, uh, Beth. Um, how did that feel for you?

[00:48:42] So first real quick, like you mentioned, this is the first time, I think this is the first episode where we didn't get any kind of a time jump. Like it's, it, you know, it's directly, you're right. Especially this season, there's been time jumps in between every episode, but this one picks directly up. You're so right. Yeah. This one starts off right from the beginning. And again, I didn't watch any advanced previews, so I didn't know this was the flashback episode. I didn't have

[00:49:08] it spoiled by entertainment weekly. Like you did. Frigging EW. When I did realize that this was going to be the flash episode was sealing was seeing the wheel of fortune on the gun. Okay. Okay. Because I know, I knew what that symbol was. So the snake eating itself was, is the wheel of fortune. The Ouroboros. Um, so when I saw that, I was like, okay, I'm like here, this, we're coming to the, like, this is going to be the what if. Nice. And, and then you're right. Like almost immediately

[00:49:35] after seeing that gun and hearing Dillard whistle, um, like Negan does often and approaching the bar and Negan telling him I wouldn't it's, and then doing the cut to Beth. It was such a comfort to see Emily Kinney again. Yeah. Uh, first off, just seeing her in general, um, because she is the

[00:50:00] sweetest, most lovely person. And, but then seeing her as Beth and seeing Beth come back was just, it was just delightful. What I really appreciated was seeing a confident adult Beth that was, um, doing her thing, chasing her dream and being her own person. I thought one of the things I really

[00:50:24] appreciated was when she mentioned that, yeah, dad loved the farm, but dad wanted us to live our life. And that's exactly what Beth is doing. And, and Maggie's living her dad's life. And I thought that was a really interesting contrast, but I forgot how nice it was to give Maggie. I mean, Maggie has seen more family loss, I think than any character on the walking dead, roughly her father,

[00:50:49] her everyone on the, on the farm. Um, like she was so close to reuniting with Beth just for Beth to be walked out of the hospital dead, like so much heartbreak. And to see her get to have that moment, it was, it was awesome, but it was also super jarring to see what kind of a relationship,

[00:51:14] uh, Beth and Maggie had at that point in the alternate world, because Beth really feels like Maggie's just kind of living her own agenda. The whole, well, no, I came out here to tell you about this new plan for what to do with the farm. Beth's like, Oh, I kind of thought you came out here to see me and like, hear me play. And I thought that was really telling that like Maggie didn't even consider. I'm just coming out to see you in a, in a sense. And like, it all went straight to business.

[00:51:40] I don't know. What did you think of that version of Maggie that we saw straight up front? Well, I think what made it interesting for me is the fact that when you look at her life via the apocalypse versus the, her life via the, the, what if we're seeing Maggie who is her, her father, Herschel has still passed away. Um, at this point more recently, obviously than, than that. Um, uh, you know, she lost her brother. She lost her mother. Beth is really the only person that she has. And

[00:52:08] she's struggling to hold on to this legacy of her phone of her home that they've had for 150 years. At this point, she's divorced from Danny. So her marriage isn't even a good shape because it doesn't exist anymore. I found it very interesting that even though in the apocalypse, she lost, she still lost Herschel. She still lost Beth. Um, and everybody else, like you said, like her brother and her mother were had all, I think she had already lost her brother and mother by the time

[00:52:36] we met her in, in the walking dead. Um, but it, it, I found it interesting to, to kind of compare the two and realize that Maggie actually found more happiness in the apocalypse than she did had the apocalypse. Never happened because in the apocalypse, she met the love of her life. She met Glenn. She had

[00:53:01] Herschel. So she found more happiness in the end of the world than she did during the normal time, which I also found interesting that when she was talking about Negan, she mentioned how she was always thinking when she was in New York, she was thinking about the end of the world. Yeah. I, I thoroughly did enjoy that. And I didn't know if that was just them being slick or if that was them revealing a little something about Maggie. No, I think, I think it's the fact that they kind of

[00:53:30] showed us that Maggie was thinking about the end of the world and the what if possibility, because it was during the end of the world that she found actual happiness, not just happiness, but strength. I don't think that's a big one. Yeah. I don't think the Maggie that we see in New York city, the strength is there, but man, I've really been watching a lot of Marvel, but she hasn't exactly learned how to harness it yet. And you see glimpses of it. You see it coming out when it needs to,

[00:53:59] but like the Maggie that we know is so much tougher and so much stronger and so much more, even when she's unconfident, like in, in confident, unconfident, she's still more confident than the Maggie that we saw in this episode. And it was just, it was startling to see. And I, it is one of those, sometimes the apocalypse tests your mettle and shows you a side of yourself. You didn't know

[00:54:23] you could become. Um, and it's fascinating to see what Maggie becomes without that push. Well, yeah. I mean, and like you said, like seeing the strength in Maggie is because you're right. The Maggie that we've known, we've, we've grown to know and love is incredibly strong. She's capable. She's capable of whether she's leading people, she's capable of whether she's alone. And in this

[00:54:48] Maggie that we're seeing is more, she has to rely on other people. She doesn't feel like she can keep the farm without a co-signer. And you know, it's not until she's offered the opportunity at the end that she even considers the fact that maybe she can do it on her own. Right. Right. So yeah. So we're definitely seeing two different sides of Maggie. A, like you said, a Maggie that still has strength. Right. But it's, it hasn't, like you said, hard. It's dormant. Right. It's, it's,

[00:55:16] it has not been unleashed yet in a way that the ZA brought it out when she was much younger as well. So like, she's also the Maggie we know in New York city and the proper timeline has been hardened for 15, 16 years. Whereas this one was the Maggie that we met at the farm without ever having to experience any of that stuff. So, Hey, well, and again, yeah, I mean, and again, like look at the fact that she's never had enough, she's never really been put in a situation. We're talking about

[00:55:44] what if Maggie has never been put in a situation where she had to confront doing something on her own or taking a step forward. And it is Negan in a sense that brings it out when she punches Alan to save Negan from killing him. Yup. Um, you know, and it's not until she, she does that when she, cause she tells Negan, I've never hit anybody. I've never been in a situation where I've had to, which is crazy to think of Negan never, or I'm sorry, Maggie never throwing a punch until she's,

[00:56:14] you know, in her forties. That's insane. Yeah. So, you know, and it's because of Negan, she's put in that situation where she does, she is in a situation where she can punch somebody and it is for the benefit of saving someone else. So it's not just doing it for, for the sake of doing it. She's doing it to step up and like, in essence, she's saving Alan's life in that moment. And Negan's cause he was going to throw his life away by killing Alan, which he still ends up doing

[00:56:43] anyway. Sure does. Um, but you know, it, and it's because of that confidence that, cause she says like it, you could see in that moment that she enjoyed it. Like she enjoyed being put in that situation and being able to take that step and test herself in that way so much so that when she gets that call at the end of the episode from the loan officer and they say she doesn't have to do it

[00:57:06] with somebody else, she's kind of withdrawn back in. So, I mean, but in essence, when you look at it that way, is she really being drawn back in or is she seeing an opportunity to take a step forward and do something on her own? So the fascinating part is I feel like part of what Negan was talking about when he was looking at the margins is whoever would co-sign with her is going to expect a lot of growth. But if Maggie does, Maggie doesn't need a co-signer, then all she needs to do is be

[00:57:35] able to pay the loan back. And if she can do that with her co-op and if that makes her happy, I don't know, maybe, maybe that's the other part. And that's a great point. Maybe this, this episode is telling us that Maggie could have been happy with just being on the farm if everything was taken care of. But I don't think that Maggie we got that we saw living on the farm as a happy Maggie. I just don't, I don't think she was content. I don't think she was confident. Like, I don't know. She'd never been in New York before that. And she was there for,

[00:58:06] in a moment, it was going to just be a shitty cup of coffee and a crappy bag of peanuts or walnuts. What was it? Cashews? No, no, it was chestnuts. Chestnuts. Thank you. Jeez. $14 chestnuts. Come on, dude. Chestnuts roasting on an open fire. It's, it's, let me tell you too, can I like, just to make a quick note, New York city at Christmas is my favorite, is my favorite place and time like in the world. So the fact that this

[00:58:34] episode takes place at Christmas in New York city, I was like, okay, come Thanksgiving, I need to make my annual trip to New York. Like I got to start planning because it's. Four months, baby. Right around the corner. Dude. Like to anybody listening, I know there are people all over the country and all over the world that are listening to this podcast, but if you ever, ever get an opportunity to just visit New York city at Christmas time, it is, it is legitimately magical. It really is.

[00:59:04] It is nice. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

[00:59:29] Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. Your favorite friend group is back. FX is adults follows five roommates living in New York, leaning on each other to navigate love, work, friendship, and family while tackling pressing questions of your twenties. Like what if the person who inherited your fake ID is cooler than you ever were? Why does being around your family make you regress into your worst self? And how do you tell

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[01:00:25] has all the taste and none of the sugar. Original, Punched, Pure Zero. Whatever flavor you're after, Rockstar has you covered. Rockstar Energy. Live loud. All right. So we've talked a lot about Wish Maggie and what her life is like. Let's talk a little bit about our man Negan Smith and how things turned out for him. Do you know, I completely forgot that Smith was his last name. They've only ever mentioned it once and it was only on the paperwork in Here's Negan in season 10.

[01:00:54] So I did have to ask ChatGPT, like, hey, real quick, in the proper The Walking Dead, what all do we know about Negan? Like, where is he from? Alexandria, Virginia. Not the Alexandria Safe Zone, but that's splitting hairs. So, yes, Negan Smith, which is for... I don't... All right, maybe this is a regional thing, but like, how many Negans are there? Is that a popular name? I had never heard the name Negan as a first name before this character.

[01:01:20] Nor had I. But maybe it is regionally something, but the most unique first name with the most common last name, that's just a fascinating combination. Yeah. But, you know, so he's still with Lucille. I imagine he still had the affair and still straightened up when she got sick because he made her as unhappy as she made him happy. As miserable as he made her happy. Correct. As she made him happy.

[01:01:50] Correct. And at the end of her life, they truly had re-found their love, etc. That's believable. And then he goes on a cross-country, you know, tour to find himself, ends up in Ohio, and he becomes a consultant to help folks open up car dealerships and negotiate deals. Yes, actually, that all tracks. A guy like Negan is absolutely going to be able to negotiate

[01:02:17] car dealership expansions. That is so within his real house. He has that charm. Yeah, he has that charm. He's got that charm and that level of, like, all due respect, macho-istic douchebaggery that he could hang with any of those car guys, any of those finance bros, and make shit happen. Like, that is a fairly inspired way of explaining how he was able to become refined and successful.

[01:02:42] Because he, and he admitted he was a PE teacher and then kind of found himself. So I really like the story that they told us. And even when they're in the diner and he's telling Maggie about the greatest city in the world, he is mentioning it from the eyes of someone that's a transplant. You can tell that he's saying it in the way of someone that, like, I didn't used to have this magic, and now I do. And you need to see the magic the way I got to when I first got here. I thought that

[01:03:10] was just really compelling. Well, it's kind of just what I was just saying about, like, if you need to, if you've never been, you need to experience New York City at Christmas. And New York City at any time is a magical place. And I mean, again, like, that's one of the reasons why, like, maybe that's why I got as emotional. I did it as, as I like, as invested in this episode as I was, is because that same magic that Negan was trying to portray on Maggie is that same thing that I feel when I go

[01:03:36] to New York as a transplant, like it's as much as I love that city. So I guess I kind of connected with Negan a little bit more at, at that point for this. But one of the things, and I know I'm going to be jumping ahead with this too, in, in things that we learned about Negan. Yes. We, we learned how some things kind of track, like there are connections from the what if to the real life. Negan was still a PE teacher, still had Lucille, Lucille still passed away from cancer. But one

[01:04:05] of the things that kind of warmed my heart a little bit, and I don't know why is the fact that we find out that even through everything, he still meets Annie and has Joshua. You know, I'm so fascinated at that takeaway because yes, he does meet Annie and Joshua, Joshua, but which is fascinating and, and, and telling us that fate works in those mysterious ways. But like, it feels like Annie is a throwaway in the wish realm. And I never thought Annie was a

[01:04:35] throwaway. Like, it's just another woman that I met. We weren't careful and therefore I have a son, but like, I always thought Annie and he had a really good, really good relationship rapport, good chemistry when we saw them. Um, so I was a little bummed that it felt like Annie was a throwaway, but, and also it kind of bummed me that Negan was a shit dad because if there's one thing I always did like, and kind of admire about Negan, it's that he gave a shit about kids and was really good with

[01:05:02] them. Oh yeah. That was, that's one of his, that's one of the few genuinely positive qualities he has. And it's not even believable that he's an absentee father because then you get him on the phone at the end of the episode and just like, bro, as a dad, as you know, you've had adopted type kids and like nieces and nephews that mean the world to you. Like, there's just a way that your, your heart lights up when you're talking to these kids that his did that there's no doubt. Like,

[01:05:28] I do not believe for one second, unless now that I think about it, him going to jail for two years really caused a risk. Okay. I was literally just going to bring that up. The fact that he was- Going to jail really fucked it up. He went to, he went to jail for two, for two years. For assault. Got out. Now he is on- House arrest. He's on house arrest, basically. He can only go so far in the city. Real soft house arrest, I think, for all of the places he was able to go to in this day. Like,

[01:05:55] real soft house arrest. It may have just been a curfew thing. Well, it probably was just a curfew thing. And he probably wasn't allowed to leave the city. The fact that going to that hotel restaurant didn't cause a ding in the, in the, the ankle bracelet, I found a bit surprising. But then again, if Alan didn't own it, he was just members there. Maybe it wouldn't. All right. Well, and also those trackers can't pinpoint specific locations. They're just range. Okay. All right. So there's nothing that bracelet would have- Like a dog shot color?

[01:06:25] I come from a law enforcement. In essence, that actually is what it is. It doesn't shock you, but like- It's a circle radius that you have to stay inside of. I gotcha. Your home is usually the, the center of it. And then there's a range you can go. Um, but for people who work in New York, I would have to imagine that that range would have to be pretty wide because of how large that city is. So I'm sure his, his home, his house arrest

[01:06:50] was probably more, like you said, curfew. And he has to be within a certain range at a certain time. But with the, I mean, that's the beauty of, of New York city. All you need is six blocks and you can literally get a little bit of everything. Pretty much. Yeah. Like that's the beauty of it. But getting back to the point, like, I think that's probably why he felt he was a shitty dad is because of what he did. And I'm sure, I'm sure the disconnect between Negan and Annie

[01:07:19] was purely because of the fact that like, she probably pulled away from Negan because of everything that he did. Didn't want Joshua to spend that kind of time with a father who like would beat somebody up and go to prison and things like that. So I don't think it's necessarily that Annie was written off as a throwaway. I think they purposely built that in that, that, um, broken connection into it because of Negan's past. All right. I choose to accept that. I love your answer. Final answer. That's, that's what I'm

[01:07:48] going with because, um, I loved Annie so much, but no, I thought the Negan backstory we got and the way that he pieced it out to Maggie was really good. First I'm a consultant. Well, then he explains the type of consultant, but then they have the brouhaha and he explains, look, I broke the shit out of this piece of shit. And I went to jail for two years. That sucks. Then they go to the batting cages and he reveals exactly why. First off, a couple of thoughts on the batting cages.

[01:08:17] Number one, it was fascinating to see Negan with a bat in his hand, no leather on, but in a way that Maggie did as well. Number two, and guys, again, entertainment weekly, I read an article, um, where Jeffrey Dean Morgan says the thing he's most upset about with this episode is that, uh, you didn't get to see it, but he connected on every single ball that was pitched to him while delivering

[01:08:40] this bad-ass monologue and JDM my bud. I want you to know as a baseball guy, the first time I watched the episode, the very first time I thought to myself at the end of the scene, that's a horrible swing. No, first off, wearing a pea coat, there's only so much you can do with that swing. So I think he couldn't take the coat off because of the gun, but like he should have taken the coat off if he, but anyways, he went, he batted a thousand. And I knew that for the first time I was like,

[01:09:06] every single time he swung, he connected and it was delightful and thoroughly enjoyable. So JDM, I see you brother. But what did you think of the story of, all right, so Alan was this Sinestro looking douchebag that would come to, you know, one of the softball games that he coached and this really good, upstanding, awesome kid fell under his spell and he lost contact, but then found out that she committed suicide ends up. What are the odds running into this muckety muck guy in

[01:09:35] New York city and beats the piss out of him. What did you think of that side of showing Negan's rage and anger and no holds barred ability? So, um, I'm going to reveal something about myself that not a lot of people know. Uh, I have been arrested for assault before. Okay.

[01:10:01] And it was a very similar situation. It was a, I was completely normal until I saw someone who had raped and assaulted someone, uh, someone that I was very close to. And when I saw them, it was like a switch flipped and I ended up getting into a fight. Um, so I, I was able to put myself in

[01:10:27] Negan's situation and understand completely where he was coming from. For sure. I didn't fault him one bit for getting into a fight with this guy and breaking his jaw where I fault him is coming back to finish the job. Yeah. I thought, man, after two years in jail, you seriously haven't gotten past the point of all

[01:10:53] like, all right, man, some shit went down and that sucks. But like you, I feel like he proved his point. And again, he set out that morning, he's eating for breakfast at his favorite spot. He's doing all, he's eating like his last day on earth. He's eating his last meals. Yes. Because in his, he is reaching out to this adorable little Georgia bumpkin next to him, because you know what, man, this is my last day of freedom. I'm going to live it up and enjoy it.

[01:11:22] And I can live vicariously through this New York city first timer and get to enjoy all the joys of New York city one last time before I go to jail for the rest of my life. Yeah. Um, and I, because he set out that morning with a gun in his pocket to do that job. And I find that to be fascinating. Um, but a sorry to hear that, man, that sucks, but good on you for kicking it out.

[01:11:46] It was years ago. So it's well past, well past the point. Honestly, man, I'm a father of two, 12 and eight year old daughters. And it is fucking impossible for me to hear a story, think about something and not a sympathize with the parents and be wonder what I would do in that situation. And I got to tell you, man, if there was an Alan and he did that to one of my girls,

[01:12:13] I wouldn't even be Negan. I wouldn't, I wouldn't need the coach to go find him. I would. Yeah. There there's. Yeah. Well, here's like, here's the thing too. Like Alan is disgusting in multiple ways. Like first off, first off, this girl died at 18, which means she was under the legal age when Alan was, um, you know, was being a predator to her and, and getting her. So she was like 16,

[01:12:40] 17 years old at that point. So that already makes him disgusting. The fact that he is predatory towards a child to begin with is, is disgusting. The fact that she was coming back with like bruise, wearing makeup, covering bruises. So he was abusive to this girl at the same time, makes him more disgusting. And the fact that he probably, in addition to physical abuse was giving her mental abuse to the point where she ended up taking her own life. Absolutely. This guy,

[01:13:08] do I agree in, in execution? No. Does Alan deserve to die? I think he did a little bit. And man, maybe that is kind of part of what the episode is asking us. Did, did Fabian deserve to die? Did Alan deserve to die? And is it okay for Negan to be the executioner in those situations? And I think that's it. Yeah. In a normal civilized society in which everything is the way it is for us

[01:13:34] right now. No, Negan man, you can't do that. But in the apocalypse, when the rules are different, I can see how we got there. And sometimes, man, the system fucked up and the system let Alan go free and the system let this guy, as we saw in this episode, continue his predatory behavior, continue his abs. I mean, the conversation he's having on the phone as Negan approaches him is so

[01:14:03] goddamn cringy. And it is doing it again. He's doing it again, right after allegedly having his life flash before his eyes. Like he had a gun up to his temple and within eight minutes, he's right back to like, come on, baby. I will shut up, come over. I'm a chill the rosé. Like what? Oh my God. I don't not only, not only that, but he's with another woman in, in the fram when he's there

[01:14:31] watching Beth. So he's clearly unfaithful at the same time that he's doing all of this stuff. But you're absolutely right. The fact that this man literally just had a gun to his head, his life about to end and not even a half hour later, if that he is right back at it. This guy is a true piece of shit. He's also a dumb ass because at what point when someone just had a gun to your head

[01:14:57] and then they release you and you say like, oh yeah, listen to your little bitch. Like, obviously you're going to get pistol whipped or something. Like who the fuck? Yeah. Who runs their mouth in that moment? Alan, you win douchebag of the year. I got to ask you, at what point did you know Alan was in the bar? Um, I didn't know until he looked out until Negan looked over and saw him. And in that moment, and I know it's weird because when they, in that moment where Negan

[01:15:26] looks over and sees him, I, it clicked that like, oh, they just showed that guy a couple minutes ago. The millisecond. Cause they, they, they stayed on him for a good half a beat. And I saw the pencil dick mustache and the pocket square. And I'm like, oh my God, Alan's in this bar. And then when they're showing the side angle of how adorably, and this was, I thought really shot. So cute. Maggie looking at Beth and Negan looking at Maggie,

[01:15:53] looking at Beth, but the whole time Alan's prick, little mustache was out of focus in the frame and I just couldn't get past it. Um, and I thought they did a really good job of just kind of giving that to us and then connecting the dots. But that was such like, that was the moment for me where like when Negan's looking past Maggie and it cuts and you see Alan, like the moment it cuts back and you see the guy standing there.

[01:16:19] And I saw that that was when I noticed the mustache and everything that was legitimately a, oh shit, that's him. Like moment. Like, and it was the same reaction that Negan had at that moment too. Like, oh, like son of a bitch motherfucker. He's here. And you almost have switched that flipped. And you know, we talk about the fortune tell you, man, of all the joints and all the towns and all the worlds on all the nights, Negan runs into Alan in this bar,

[01:16:46] which Maggie's sister is singing that like, man, if ever there's an argument for fate, that's a pretty solid one right there. And again, look at, look at where they are. They're at what it will become Dillard's bar. They're at the friend friends North friends. When Ben and I were getting ready for this episode. And one of the moments where I was like, all right, you just have to hit damn record, man.

[01:17:10] It was because when, when Ben told me and made me realize that the bar that Beth was singing at was Dillard's bar, I was like, okay, this has just gone to another level. This is amazing because, and I got to give you, I got to give credit where credit's due. Okay. Sometimes I have my worst impulses as a fan. It is what it is. I kind of wanted the fortune teller to be the Dama. I wanted the Croat to be the guy selling the, well, the, the chestnuts or whatever.

[01:17:41] Um, I wanted there to be subtle, maybe little nods. Luis was good, but I wanted other nods of characters like Bruegel doing some Bruegel shit just because, and I'm sure I know people available at times going to, et cetera. I get that. But, um, I really appreciated the show's restraint in doing that and keeping it because again, in past seasons of dead city in past seasons of walking

[01:18:06] dead proper, I don't think they would have been able to stop themselves from having a stunt casting, especially the fortune teller as the Dama would have made so much sense storytelling wise and who she was and all of that. Um, I'm really proud they didn't, but the stunt casting of Dillard's bar, man, that was good. Yes. Locations in general ending up in the hotel, et cetera. Um, so, so,

[01:18:34] so good. So hats off to you for catching onto that way before I did. And what was funny too is like, I, like, cause I'm, I, I'm actually glad they really restrained on it as well. Like, like you said, they could have thrown in a bunch of these act. They could have thrown Renata in there. Oh, so simply, you know, they could have, they could have brought Kim coats back and done like Bruegel there. Like, because we know that Bruegel was a stock market douche bag as well. He could have been one of the guys sitting at the table in the restaurant.

[01:19:02] Yes. You know, so there's so much that could have been done that they did, but I'm glad that they didn't. Yes. They kept it restrained because the story deserves that. The only crossover we got was Louise. And that was because Louise, the, the hotel that they're in where Beth lives at the, the building that Beth lives in at the end is the same building that Maggie is living in,

[01:19:27] in the real world. Absolutely. And it's where Louise lived too. So of course that there's that chance. The synergy makes sense in that moment for sure. Um, there, there was one, there was another bit of stunt casting that I thought would have been hilarious. And to Lucy's partner, Peter, this one is for you. Uh, I thought it would have been hilarious if Maggie's ex-husband would have just been Alden. I think if, if Alden had been the ex-husband, it would have just,

[01:19:57] it would have helped a lot of people that hated the idea of that pairing been like, yeah, that's right. It wouldn't have worked out. Get out of here. Um, so that would have been neat, but Andy, eh, we never knew you. Yeah. So, um, Andy, you mean Danny, Danny, Andy, it's all the same thing. It's yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty similar. Um, yeah, but then, you know, when they get that card reading and everything and, you know, the wheel of fortune comes up in there and I was like, okay,

[01:20:23] like that's the, this is literally the circle for the episode. We got the wheel in the fortune, the beginning, we get the wheel of fortune here. It's what ties everything together at this point. Um, I'm looking through there's like, I know we're not going as long as we usually do, but. Which is surprising. I thought we would go longer, but. No, I, I think this episode is just on a much.

[01:20:49] It's so contained. It's so contained and it doesn't, the shitty thing is it doesn't matter. It doesn't move the story forward. It doesn't do anything until the last 30 seconds. It just is a really cool character study on what if phenomenon, how do people turn out in those sliding doors moments and what is fate? What is being interconnected throughout all parallel universes? Multiverse of madness shit. I love it.

[01:21:16] I, I will tell you one of the interesting dynamics that I did notice too, when you realize that the fram is Dillard's bar is the fact that the switch flipping for Negan happened in the same place. The switch flipping for him killing Fabian was while he's behind the bar and he's literally almost in the same exact location in the bar too. Oh, I like that.

[01:21:41] The switch flips for Fabian when he's behind the bar talking to Fabian because Maggie is being threatened. And then in the, what if the switch flips when he sees Alan and it's all because of, again, he failed protecting somebody else. Yep. Damn. That's good. I like that. I like that a lot. And they both happen in the bar. That's good. Especially that's good blocking, man. Again, this,

[01:22:07] I, I hope that this show is doing some of this stuff intentionally and hoping that we need to realize it because if so, hats off, this is really good, really good television making the blocking, the symbolism, all of it is a really good season of TV. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I don't think the writers of the walking dead are, are as good as like Damon Lindelof when it comes to like planning everything out, but I'm sure a lot of this stuff is still intentional. I would hope. Um,

[01:22:35] all right. So I have a couple of things still number one, and this, this, this actually kind of troubled and concerned me. Okay. So 50, let's say 55, 55 year old Negan in modern day world clearly needs glasses. Where's in the entire episode? Um, Negan in the zombie apocalypse would also, you would imagine need glasses, but he's still a crack shot. So I'm just thinking it's a little

[01:23:05] interesting that he has no ocular help in the ZA, but he's still a really good shooter. Now I am going to play a little devil's advocate on this. Please do. Um, because as somebody who is in front of cameras, uh, little often, I will say, um, I do wear glasses purely for aesthetic. Okay. Oh, don't get me wrong. I have some, some purely framed glasses as well. They are dynamite.

[01:23:33] Yeah. I have, I have a couple of pairs. Actually I have blue, I have blue light glasses that help me if I'm, if I want to protect blue light now they're not purely for aesthetic because of the blue light. Right. I do have a pair of glasses that are purely cosmetic frames. They're not any kind of specialized. And I have my meta Ray-Bans that are also purely cosmetic. They're not any kind of specialized frames or any lenses or anything like that. You know what that's right. Well, I also want to say too that like, I don't believe Negan really needed the glasses

[01:24:02] for anything other than reading. And I don't see him doing a lot of reading in the ZA. Well, no, that's a great point. Okay. I like that. I like that. And there's plenty of reasons to read inside of a diner. Perhaps you have the sports section, just the menu. Well, no, he was reading, he was reading Maggie's business plan. Ah, yes. Okay. All right. I like it. I like it. That makes me feel better. And it did really make me, it did really make me want pancakes. I'll tell you what, dude. I, those pancakes look dynamite.

[01:24:31] Dude, there is not just in New York, man, but there is something really, really special about diner food. There is. A good diner is amazing. Don't get me wrong. I, when I travel for shows, I like going to like, like Fleming's or like trying local stuff, like trying local restaurants and stuff like that. But man, when I'm home, there is just nothing like going to the diner for some like good diner food. It feels good. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT.

[01:25:00] Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. Your favorite friend group is back.

[01:25:30] FX is Adults follows five roommates living in New York, leaning on each other to navigate love, work, friendship, and family, while tackling pressing questions of your 20s like, what if the person who inherited your fake ID is cooler than you ever were? Why does being around your family make you regress into your worst self? And how do you tell your roommates that you have other friends? FX is Adults. All episodes now streaming on Hulu.

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[01:26:24] Rockstar Energy. Live loud. All right, so just as a personal note, Tarot, you in or you out? Remind me. What was Tarot? Oh, Tarot cards. Tarot cards. Yes, are you in or you out? I'm in. I don't know. I'm in the sense that, like, I believe in fate. I believe in the universal strands. I believe that there are ways of telling this stuff.

[01:26:54] I believe that there's a lot of luck involved. I believe it's as nebulous as astrology. And if you want it to fit a certain narrative, you can. But I like thinking that there's something tying all of us together. And, you know, Tarot, I think the best Tarot card readers are former improv people. Because, man, the ability to just, like, take the information you're given and be like, ah, but yes, that means in a different life you've been here in New York. Ha ha! I figured you. Like, well, this is my first time in New York. Ah, that just means you've been here another life. Don't worry about it. Anyways.

[01:27:24] I do believe in Tarot to a degree. But, again, I think it's all a matter of how the cards are. Well, it's clearly about how the cards are read. But I think it is also a performance at the same time. I don't fully believe in everything Tarot. I do believe in an element of it. But, I mean, you know, I do believe in fate to a degree. I think we have some control over our own lives. I don't leave everything up to fate.

[01:27:54] I think we have to help fate from time to time. So much so, like, I actually started writing a book or a novella about a genie. And the rules of the genie were a little bit different in that you, the rules were the same as in, like, you couldn't wish for more wishes. You couldn't, actually, there were only two rules that the genie had. Not like Disney or anything like that.

[01:28:22] The two rules were you couldn't wish for more wishes. Damn it. Only purely because of the fact that it was out of the genie's capability. Okay. And two, you could never wish for anything that was already destined to happen by fate. Bloody hell. Which actually was going to be a big storyline in the story because of the fact that he was going to wish for a woman to fall in love with him.

[01:28:50] And the wish is actually never granted because she was always destined to fall in love with him to begin with. Damn. Oh, I like that. I like that very much. Yeah. So I'll have to explain more about this story later because I'm not done it and I still want to write it. Okay. But I do believe in fate to a degree. Okay. And, but I do think that we, we kind of have to help fate along the way. I can dig that. I can dig that. I, you know, I'm a, I'm a fan of dragon dreams and game of Thrones.

[01:29:20] I'm a fan of speaking of Lindelof and Hey, I try not to go an episode without mentioning lost, but the Daniel Faraday philosophy of what, what's happened, happened, man. Like whatever is like, whatever is happening from like, it always is what happens. So you just kind of have to go with it and know that you can't do shit to change it. But this is what it is and you thinking you're changing it are actually you just setting in motion what was always meant to be. Yeah.

[01:29:50] So I don't know. It's a fun way to look at things. Another thing I can't believe we haven't talked about yet, Ben, this week's special intro to the episode. Oh, I, you know what? And I did want to bring that up and I didn't even write it down, which didn't make me think about it. But yeah, it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seeing the transitions going from real world or what if to. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[01:30:14] And, and they've never done, I don't think a one-off type of intro like this before, but I love it when shows do shit like this, you know, or when they really lean into the theme of the week or something like that. I really love a breakaway intro to set you up in this like alternate sense of reality. And I thought that was such an effective way of saying like, yeah, man, just leave your preconceived notions of what you know at the door.

[01:30:43] This is, this is a normal world. And this is what would have happened at the, if the societal world never collapsed. Well, so here's my question to you then when it comes to what this, what if actually is. And I kind of teased this a little bit before, but do you think this, what if is a purely what if Maggie and Negan met outside of the ZA? Or do you think this is a, what if the ZA never happened? This is purely a, what if the ZA never happened?

[01:31:13] Because that's what I think too. I think if you track what we know about all of these characters, everything leading up to the fall of the ZA seems to be in line with both universes. It's, it's after that inflection point that things change. So I do think this isn't Maggie and Negan story so much as if zombies never happened, fate was always going to bring them together.

[01:31:39] And, you know, in this realm, yeah, it's not as big of an influential meeting. Like, you know, Beth says this guy you meet for one day and he flipped your whole world around and he didn't even get his numbers. Like Facebook exists. Don't worry.

[01:31:52] Um, but it, it is a fascinating way of looking at it because again, it's very ballsy to take 40 out of 42 minutes of an episode and put it towards something that's never going to move the plot forward. That is a ballsy, ballsy choice.

[01:32:14] And I think if I go to rewatch this season, like this might be one that I'm skipping through because I'm so excited to get to the resolution of the previous episode. But like, damn, this was a good standalone episode. Yeah, I agree. Like it might've been a filler episode, but it was a filler episode that filled me up. If that makes sense. Like it, I, I was satisfied by this filler episode.

[01:32:39] You know what, man, sometimes you just think you need a snack and then you make a bomb ass plate of nachos and you're like, Hey, this ended up being a meal. I'm so happy. Some, sometimes you think you just need a snack and then you end up sitting at the counter at a diner and eating a full breakfast of pancakes, eggs and bacon. That's a much better analogy. Thank you. I didn't even, that's a great way of bringing it all back together. I love that. Um, all right. So there are 13 seconds we haven't talked about yet. Yes, there are. All right.

[01:33:07] So let's, here's, so we, first off, thank you. I was just going to say the transition of the door to the hotel opening and it being Herschel. And like, now we're back in the ZA. Like that was such a great transition. Dude, the Beth smash cut was a great transition at the beginning. And then the Herschel smash cut at the end was just as powerful. And like, all right, man. So Herschel runs in mom. Negan killed Fabian.

[01:33:37] We knew that. Got into a fight with Dillard and now Dillard's face is cut in half. Whatever the fuck that means. Is it hamburger or hot dog style? I don't know. Like split in half or something. What does that mean? Um, so some things we don't know yet. Okay. Number one was Negan captured. Number two, did Negan turn himself in? Number three is Negan on the run. Number four. How exactly did Dillard get that cut on his face? And is this, is this a real quick answer?

[01:34:06] But there's more nuance to it in that he came in, saw the cock and spiel was dead, got pissed at Negan, slipped because Negan did hit Fabian with a bottle. There's glass lying around. It just happened. Oh, that's so. So did he fall and slice up his face? But everyone's just assuming the worst for Negan. I don't know. But like, it's just nuanced enough that to your point, I could see a world in which Maggie still takes Negan's side.

[01:34:36] Because I think what we were given is going to be a tenth of the reality of the story that we're going to be given next week. Well, it's like they say, there's your truth, there's my truth, and then there's the actual truth. Absolutely, yes. And you're, that's a really, really, really good point. Because like, I did start to question whether Maggie could team up with Negan if we found out that Negan intentionally like, um, attacked, attacked Dillard. There is no way.

[01:35:05] There is no way that Negan Smith that we know attacks Dillard for any reason other, and like Dillard gets injured for, I just don't see it. Unless it's an accident. I think what, and I think that could be it, because I think Dillard's going to come in. I think the whole Negan telling Dillard, I wouldn't do it, is for him to come in. Because it's not because Negan's going to attack him.

[01:35:29] It's because Negan doesn't want Dillard to be shocked at what he's found, both in Fabian's body and the fact that. Cockenspiel's out. Cockenspiel has been killed, like, has been taken out by the bullet that went through Fabian. Yes. Completely accidental. Like, Negan did not do that on purpose. But enough people have been chirping in Dillard's ear about Negan being a bad influence. And Negan has unfortunately chirped in Dillard's ear enough about how he doesn't approve of these walkers.

[01:35:58] That, depending on what Dillard's coming from and who he was hanging out with, maybe he is perfectly ready to see Negan in that compromising position. Because that's also the shitty thing about Negan is impulse control. He just can't help himself. And he just fucks himself up every time. And I think it's basically, like, if I had to make any kind of prediction, I think it might be Dillard walking in, seeing everything, getting distraught, him possibly getting mad at Negan. Oh, yeah.

[01:36:28] And attacking Negan. And then in self-defense, shit goes awry. And in self-defense, exactly. Something happens to Dillard and he gets injured. Because Negan was fucking with guns, not with knives. So it's fascinating that Dillard got cut in half instead of shot or something like that. That's a good point, too. You're right. He had a gun in his hand. So you are. So, yeah, I think a lot of this is probably going to be misunderstanding. They're meant to make us wonder what the hell happened.

[01:36:57] And then there's going to be some kind of reveal. And I think it's going to be, again, I can foresee the zig being when they were supposed to zag, being that Maggie is going to side with Negan. Or at least give him grace. She is going to be willing to give him grace when you wouldn't expect that. Because why set up this whole what if episode showing the connection that these two have only to be on opposite sides of it by the end of this episode?

[01:37:25] Well, again, that's a great question. Because I think the importance of the what if was to show us Maggie has trouble moving on from what she's comfortable with. And Negan has trouble letting go from his vendettas, his rage, his sense of justice and moral culpability. And how does that translate to the situation at hand?

[01:37:51] Can Maggie let go of her belief that Negan is a piece of shit? And which is what I said. I think Negan is the exception to that rule when it comes to that. Yeah. OK. So, again, like I don't even think the whole letting go applies to Negan. I think I think she's accepted their connection already at this point. I like that.

[01:38:17] So, again, it's just a matter of why set up this connection? Why have this fortune teller telling how their souls are connected in some way, shape or form? And only to come out of this episode going into the penultimate with them being on opposite sides. I think they were basically telling us that like these guys are these guys are they're going to be together. They're not again romantically. Never at all.

[01:38:44] Again, even the fortune teller laughed like, no, bro, that's not like you can. I love I love how they toyed with that this episode, too, with Negan saying like, so basically you're saying we need to bump uglies like. Well, and he was just being a charming, flirtatious little dork bag. But Maggie, again, never once truly played into it. And it really is showing like there is a platonic, definitely a platonic force.

[01:39:11] And they just keep telling us over and over and over again. Guys, we're not going to go there with this relationship. So if that's a zig that's going to be a zag, I'm going to be peeved. But I don't think I don't think we're ever going to get that. They I think, man, they would be real wise. They gave us another hint at a connection between Maggie and Louise by having them that by chance meeting. So I think if there's any kind of romance that's going to be happening, it's going to be between Maggie and Louise.

[01:39:41] Oh, it's got to be. And I will say one thing. OK, so getting even just a picture of Joshua, I think maybe and you know more about this world than me. But I think that means that the actor gets some sort of credit slash payment or now. Now, damn it, because I am still hoping that Annie and Joshua can become part of Negan story.

[01:40:05] I really I know I might be shouting into the dark and I might be alone on this hill of like hope because I don't think you're against it, but I don't think you see it as a realistic possibility. And I just I just want it to happen. I loved Annie. I thought she was a great compliment for Negan. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind seeing it. I just don't foresee it. You're not betting on it. I'm not betting on it. Right.

[01:40:32] And just to go back to your earlier point about using Joshua's likeness, usually anytime you sign a contract with any kind of franchise or anything, they have the right to use your likeness. It's called in perpetuity, which means they can use it whenever whenever they want. It's the only time would be different is if they need the actor to actually be on set. We call that the Crispin Glover of it all, folks. Yes. So like they have every right to use your likeness in either photo or flashback. I got you. I got you.

[01:41:02] So they could show Glenn anytime they wanted in a picture. Oh, yeah. Well, we've already seen Glenn. Oh, that's true. And we just saw Scott Wilson, Herschel, you know, just a couple. All right. Well played. Well played, sir. Because it's the character and the performance that they own. All right. Yeah. I got you now. I got you. It's one of the reasons why people who get into acting need to really look over that in perpetuity place in your contract.

[01:41:26] Because it's some it's one of the reasons how some AI are getting some companies that own and create AI are being able to use people's likenesses to train their AI. Oh, yeah. It's because they own your likeness through contract. Well, it's a it's a lot of independent artists and folks that like put their music up onto these sites to be able to get it out there, which in theory is great. But you're also giving away your rights to that music. You're making it a product of the site.

[01:41:55] So then they're able to sell it and then they're able to feed it into the AIs that then make the music that will kill the indie rock industry. It's the world's already at the apocalypse. Zombie or not. I promise. Yes. So, ladies and gentlemen, if you're getting into any kind of entertainment industry, read your contracts. Yes. Yes. And that's smart talk with Ben and Alex. But I. That's all I got, man. Yeah, that's pretty much everything that I have, too.

[01:42:23] I really enjoyed this episode. I thought it was really like you said, the writing, the storytelling, I thought was really, really great. The acting was sublime. Yeah, I was. It was great seeing Emily Kinney and hearing her actually perform because to anybody who doesn't know, she actually does release music. So, you know, getting to see her actually perform was great. Just seeing her again was wonderful. Seeing the magic of New York at Christmas was great. Yes.

[01:42:53] This episode had me laughing so many times purely at the charm and connection between Maggie and Negan. Yeah, they were both super charming. They were both just so down to earth relatable and charming in this episode, man. It was so nice to see. Yeah. So, I'm really excited by what this episode gave us. And I'm really excited to jump in the penultimate in the finale. A hundred percent, yes.

[01:43:21] And I think for the first time at the end of a season, I'm going to be left with an obsessive level of wanting to know what comes next. Yeah. I think the past few seasons, I've been intrigued. And then a week later, I'm like, all right, what's next? I think, I think Dead City, a month after it's over, I'm still going to be in moments being like, damn, I wonder what they're going to do there. Because it's just been so well constructed all year.

[01:43:49] They have not missed, just like Negan in the batting cage. They have not yet missed on a single swing. Well, well done, by the way. Thank you. They're batting a thousand, as you said before. They sure are. This is also the first season that, like, seasons one and two, if we, like, when we were getting towards the end of season one, if we didn't get a season two, I was okay. Yeah. When we got to the end of season two, if we didn't get a season three, I was okay.

[01:44:18] But now that we're approaching the end of season three, I'm like, no, we need season four. There is absolutely. We need more of this. There is no way in hell they can satisfy my storytelling need in two episodes. I'm sorry. It's just, it's impossible. Shit. I might need a four and a five because we still don't have a big bad. I refuse to agree that Negan's going to be the big bad. No way. No, we've talked about this. Big bad is survival. It is.

[01:44:46] We don't need a physical representation of a big bad. I mean, at some point, even Jericho had a big bad. Again, we're going to, we're going to get it again at some point, but this season, we don't. That's true. We don't need it. If nothing else, I could actually see this season ending with the split between Negan and Maggie and Renata and everything else. I could.

[01:45:11] So what if Negan and Maggie, even though they're not the big bad to the viewer, are considered the big bad by Renata? Yeah. By the end of this season. And what if Renata has a point? Whoa. She might. So there's that. What if. All right. So we were talking to this thread earlier and we were joking about it, but like, I actually do think it would be a very bold narrative choice. And if they wanted to go this way, they've earned it.

[01:45:40] Like, what if Negan doesn't survive this season for whatever reason? There's no way JD that you can't do this show without Negan. Well. It is called Dead City, which means like it could be. And we said that earlier. It doesn't have to be. We don't need Maggie or Negan for this story to continue. I want them both. Hell yes. But like, you're right. Like, it's not necessarily necessary. Yeah.

[01:46:10] So for either one of them, I think an interesting zig when they should have zagged would have been is going to be seeing Maggie and Negan on the outs considered the villains of the story. Yeah. Yeah. I think if that's where they go, that'll be a very, very solid. I mean, shit. That's how they almost ended last season was. Kind of on the outs with all of their own respective groups that were still standing between pearly, Negan and Maggie. And then they just hand waved it away within two episodes, which was delightful.

[01:46:41] Yeah. So I don't know. I'm excited. I can't. I mean, it's midnight Eastern Standard Time as we're recording this. And we're just getting ready to wrap this up too. No, but I want to watch the next episode. I just, there's no, as an adult with a job and kids, I shouldn't. But like, it's tough. Yeah. It's tough. And I will say too, like it was reported, I don't know where the article came from. I don't remember.

[01:47:08] But Scott Gimple has come out and said that he pretty much thinks The Walking Dead is only halfway through its life. I love that kind of confidence. I, if there's one thing that this season of television from Dead City has taught me, it's that they still have ways to tell the story in a new fashion. And interestingly, which I am here for.

[01:47:33] But I mean, like to say that The Walking Dead, like, and when he says The Walking Dead, he means the universe proper. Right. Like all the series. When you figure like we're already more than a decade into this universe and he thinks it's only about halfway through that somehow we're still going to get another 10 years of Walking Dead properties. If the story writing, if the storytelling is anything like they're doing with Dead City right now, bring on 10 more years of this.

[01:47:59] Give me a Judith and Herschel and whatever storyline with this kind of quality and care. Amen. Amen. Man. Well, it makes me realize, too, that if we're getting 10 more years of this, man, like it means that we haven't even met characters that we're going to love and that we're going to know and love as much as we do some of these other ones. Renata and Luis, we didn't know them before this season started. Now they're essential to this story in a way that I love.

[01:48:29] Shit. Yeah. They made us love Herschel. Ben, let us never forget. They made us at least like, but for me, love Herschel. I'm, and I know, I think it was, it was, um, uh, Greg, uh, Grippy who posted like about hating Herschel. Maybe it wasn't him. I'm sorry, Greg, if I put those words in your mouth. One of the feedbacks from this from earlier today was somebody saying how much they, they dislike Herschel. Yep. Um, oh no, it was Colin. It was no, who?

[01:48:59] Oh, now I got to look. I'm sure Colin doesn't like Herschel. No, it was somebody because of them looking like, um, oh, it was, it was Colin. It was Colin. Yeah. Cause he looks like his cousin. Yes. Um. Fantastic. Because you had to reread that part of the feedback. Um, yeah. Like I don't agree with that. I've actually grown to really like and appreciate Herschel because of the storytelling they've been given us. Big time fan, man. Big time fan. Yeah.

[01:49:29] So any final, I know we just did a bunch of notes, but anything final before we get ready to wrap things up? I really don't think so. That's, uh, that's it for me. Okay. Yeah. Me as well. All right. That is our show episode 715. As always, thank you guys for listening. Next episode, we'll be doing your feedback for this episode.

[01:49:59] Dead City season three, episode six, and then our breakdown of the Dead City season. Three, episode seven, penultimate episode titled Hourglass. I mean, that's, I mean, that's it. If that's not a time is running out reference, I don't know what is. Well, of course. Um. I hear Hourglass. I think the looking glass. Just to get one more lost reference. There you go. Yeah. You got to get in one. Yeah. So.

[01:50:25] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about anything, you can find all of our contact information over at podcastica.com. And while you're there, please make sure to check out our other podcast as well as Ben and my own content. As far as podcastica stuff, you got to check out Casting Light. All right. It's Jim, it's Kirk, and it's Jason. And they're talking about the new HBO series, Lanterns.

[01:50:51] If you haven't watched Lanterns, for the love of God, go watch Lanterns. I am caught up. I actually watched. I made sure to put episode two on my tablet. So for the flight home, I watched episode two on the way home. Atta boy. Because, again, so I don't, of all the comic book heroes, storylines, et cetera, I have the least amount of familiarity with Green Lantern. The majority of my understanding of Green Lantern comes from Ryan Reynolds, which isn't good.

[01:51:21] I get that. So I can go in saying I am a Marvel and DC guy, but I don't know jack about the lore. And I am thoroughly engrossed in the world that they are giving us. I am blown away at how much information they can give us without giving us too much and keeping such a good mystery alive.

[01:51:46] But Kyle Chandler is next world, otherworldly, literally as Hal Jordan and Aaron Pierre is a force. So I cannot recommend Lanterns enough. And again, if you like Lanterns, you're going to love Casting Light, a Lanterns podcast with Jason, Jim and Kirk. James and Kirk. Yeah, James T. Kirk. And I got to say too, like, I love Kyle Chandler and I think Lanterns is fantastic.

[01:52:15] But that man, Kyle Chandler can't avoid a football field in any projects that he does. Buddy, when it works, I don't think he was in early edition, but hey, when it works, go for it, man. Just go for it. I fell in love, fell in love with Kyle Chandler during early edition. And like, again, I was born in 1987. So I was what, eight, nine, 10 years old. I thought it was the neatest concept for a show. I always grabbed the morning paper after that, hoping, just hoping that it was tomorrow's

[01:52:45] paper. Never worked out. Really fun show, man. I love that. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and as far as our own content goes, I've got Wilhelm, which I haven't promoted in a couple episodes. I'll do it anyway. I'm getting ready to start recording new episodes now that I'm back from Colorado and gearing up for Rhode Island, which isn't until November. So I've got some time to get some stuff in. I got some cool stuff already set up, but easiest way you can find that is just go to

[01:53:12] welcome to Wilhelm dot com and you'll find all the information on where to subscribe, listen and all that jazz. Love it. And if you want to hear more of me and you just might be into Philadelphia Phillies baseball, check out the quit chasing podcast. We are a little cheeky, a little reverent and always unqualified. We watch one 62. So you don't have to, but we also like to talk a little bit of life entertainment and whatever the hell comes in our mind.

[01:53:38] Again, last week we had a spirited discussion about the Pat McAfee country album. Ben, did you get to listen to it? I did not, but I need to. There is more of a curiosity. I mean, that is a good enough reason. I'm fascinated to see how many. I lasted two and a half tracks. So I hope you have better luck than I. Good. Um, I also want to say real quick.

[01:54:03] Uh, it has been at the time we're recording this, it has been a horrible week. Um, in terms of celebrity deaths. So our hearts are out there, not only with the families of the people that passed, but with anybody who was a fan of these people and is hurting because of the loss of either Dolly Parton, Tim Curry, or the one that really hit me the hardest, which was today at the time of recording this. Uh, the legendary Peter Cullen who voiced Optimus Prime because I have shared the stage with

[01:54:32] Peter and he is what was one of the most genuinely nice gentlemen who adored his fans. And just, it's, it's, it's a big loss, uh, for my, for me and my childhood as well as Tim Curry and Dolly. I mean, come on. Like they were both fricking legends. And honestly, that's not to diminish the loss of Hayden Penetier as well. I was just, yep. I was just going to say the same thing. So, um, which was a tragedy in itself as well.

[01:55:02] So again, if you're feeling the loss of any of those people, we, we totally understand. And, um, cause we are as well. So, and hopefully knock on fucking wood between the time we're recording this and the time it airs, there's not another one that needs to be discussed. Not one that we don't want to hear about. Yeah. Oh yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. Why is it the shit bag stick around and the good ones are taken? Only the good die young man. That's what Billy Joel told us. Still alive.

[01:55:31] So what does that tell you about him? Whatever. That's very, very, very true. Uh, all right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit. Adam Donmoyer. What if doctors could detect Alzheimer's before symptoms appear or treat cancer with unprecedented precision on the new season of tomorrow's cure, the chart topping and 2025 Ambie award finalist podcast from Mayo clinic.

[01:55:58] We explore how breakthroughs like these are already reshaping the future of healthcare. I'm Lindsay Seaver, the new host of tomorrow's cure. And this season I'm joined by leading physicians, researchers, and Mayo Clinic experts exploring everything from AI powered diagnostics to precision cancer treatments. Follow tomorrow's cure wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work?

[01:56:28] It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans.