716: TWD: Dead City S3E7 "Hourglass"

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[00:01:30] Hmm? Ah! It gets to go! Maggie, I know you're a good person. I also know you feel a responsibility to this, to these people you rock here. And I know you must feel a fear that they are in great danger.

[00:01:59] So I know that you're not too far away, Maggie, and I know for sure that you are. Some good news. Hey, Maggie, you can save every last one of these people. And all you gotta do is bring Negan to me. Negan to me before nightfall. I will kill people.

[00:02:26] You don't wanna have to kill good men, Maggie. And we both know that Louise is a good man. So why don't you just bring me the bad man? So this can all go away. This can all be over, man. If you just bring me the bad man.

[00:03:34] What's up, Zedheads? Welcome to the podcast. I'm Ben. And I'm Alex. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 716. And this episode covering The Walking Dead, Dead City, season 3, episode 7, Hourglass. The penultimate episode of the third season. And I do love a good penultimate episode. I like it when, you know, Game of Thrones was famous for its wonderful penultimates,

[00:04:03] how a lot of the big action Ned gets beheaded in season one, spoiler alert, in the penultimate. And then the next episode is just the resolution and like, okay, how do we get to the next pieces from that? I thought this episode set up the season finale wonderfully. This was a great alley to the oop that next week will likely be. Dude, I'm so first off, I don't want to spend too much time kind of vamping like we usually do, because we actually have a lot of feedback on a ton on Genesis, the last episode, which is the what if episode.

[00:04:32] I wasn't expecting this much feedback, but we got a lot. And I'm don't get me wrong. Like, I'm pleasantly happy we got as much as we did. Um, but I have to say before we jump into anything, I did something the other day. Uh, I finished Widow's Bay. Oh, man. Was that not just the most enjoyable show that you did not see coming? It was like the, the surprise of the humor in the show.

[00:05:02] The execution. Was so refreshing. Yeah, man. That show had no business being as funny as it ended up being, but damned if it wasn't really full of chuckles. Yeah. I mean, but I've been doing on top of it. Like they did a good job of building tension between particular moments. I didn't realize that that particular character was Hamish Linkletter. I did not either until like three episodes later. I'm like, hold on a second. Yeah. Like when I read something online, I was like, oh yeah. And Hamish link. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[00:05:32] For new adventures of old Christine. What? Hold on. How I realized it was that we just recently announced him for our Rhode Island comic-con show coming in November. Yes. And the image of that character is on our announcement image. And I was like, wait, what? I'm like, I just watched that episode. I had no idea that was him. He deserves an Emmy for what he does with his voice alone in that episode. And just the thousand yards stare he does on the boat. Like, oh, so much fun. So much fun.

[00:05:59] That whole scene with, I don't want to say too much because I know there are people that still need to watch it. But I will just say that whole scene of the tension of crossing the boundary, like was so. Steven Root is amazing in this show. Yes. Like he like, oh my God, it was so good. And I love. Oh, we're off to talk about it afterwards. Because again, I don't want to spoil anything. But I totally called the blood relationship. I got it. I called it.

[00:06:29] I had it the episode after the flashback. I was like, oh, okay. That's what we're doing here. Well, they did a good job. Like I made the prediction. I was like, I wonder if such and such is actually related to such and such. And then they did a good job of like curtailing you away from that. Oh yeah. Yeah. And they give you the red herring. And then there's the bigger reveal that revealed I was actually right. And I was like, holy shit.

[00:06:56] Like I called it and didn't like, I thought I didn't, but I actually called it. And one thing I'll say, um, and I'm 99% sure this won't be a spoiler, but if it is just edit it out. So the thing I appreciate the most is at the end of season one, they have set up a world where the story naturally continues. It makes perfect sense to continue. We still have tons of unanswered questions and like everyone knows a little bit, but nobody knows everything. And that's going to be so much fun to build upon.

[00:07:25] And they've really set themselves up super well to continue telling a well-crafted story. And I'm not much of a horror guy, but the homages and the reverence for horror storytelling that is shown. Oh, the whole boogeyman thing was like fantastic. Patricia instantly became one of my favorite characters of all time. I mean, from the beach reads on. Yes. Oh man. The whole beach. That whole episode four, baby. That was such, you called it.

[00:07:54] Like you told me that too. You were like, man, episode four is when it really starts to dig in. And by the end of that, by the end of that episode, I was like, I might absolutely love this show. Yes. Yes. Did you ever watch AP bio by the way? No, I haven't. Oh, it's really good. Nevermind. I was going to make a cast connection, but if you haven't seen it, it wouldn't matter. Okay. All right. But yeah, I did finish it and I thoroughly enjoyed it and I can't, and I know it's already been greenlit for season two. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:24] It's, it's ready to go. And I'm really proud of us because instead of going on and on about this week's episode, we talked about something else. And now we can safely get into the feedback without having over talked hourglass. And we could talk about Genesis one more time. Yes, we can. So with that said, let's dive into the feedback for episode six, which was Genesis, which was the what if episode. And I'd actually like to kick things off this week because I've been letting you kick things off for a while and it kind of times out perfectly for you to get Colin again.

[00:08:53] So then even better. And, and I was hoping, I was hoping I could just have dibs on Colin for the rest of time. And that also gives me the second one, which is fantastic. So please go at it. You know, so real quick to, we have to figure out and, and we'll make this decision. I don't know if we'll make it right now. We've been doing a good job all season of watching the episodes before they air and getting the episodes recorded so that by the time the episode airs, you can jump right into our coverage of the episode.

[00:09:20] We need to make a decision about how we're going to handle next week, because we're either going to do the same thing. And then do a separate feedback episode again. Or do we want to actually give it a couple days to marinate and like record a couple days after the finale actually airs so we can do everything in one shot. So it's funny, I was, I was wondering about that this week because, you know, baseball is getting into the postseason. So that's going to start ramping up for me.

[00:09:49] And I know, and I know Jason and Lucy are anxious to get back to the rewatch too. I, I'm curious because it could definitely go either way. But if there's enough generalized episodes slash full season feedback, maybe it would make sense to break it into its own episode because that episode could be feedback from the final episode and just overall thoughts on the season. We still don't have a green light for season four. I don't know what the season finale is going to look like. And, and if we wait a week, we might have that green light by then too.

[00:10:18] So right, right. Maybe after the finale, give it three days to breathe and they will say, oh, by the way, we are coming back. So I I'd say check with the powers that be and see what they want us to do. But I'm game for either. I, you know what? I think let's just stick with the format next. And then next week we'll do feedback for this episode hourglass. We'll talk about, we'll break down the finale and then we'll do a separate episode. That's feedback for the finale slash entire season three. Yeah.

[00:10:46] And you know, if it's a series wrap up cool, if it's a season wrap up and season preview, even better. I don't, I don't think it's going to be a season series. I have no idea what the numbers are. I haven't looked whatsoever. So I don't know. And like streaming, I imagine is a big portion of the audience. So who the heck knows? Yeah. How much does that matter for AMC? Like ratings. It's true. And then when you look at the fact that Scott Gimple had come out and said that he feels like we're only through a half-life of the walking dead.

[00:11:15] I, I have a feeling he probably already knows that the show has been greenlit. They just haven't announced it yet. And the ratings on this season have been completely higher than the past two. Cool. So I, I, I have a feeling we don't, we're not going to have to worry about a season four. I think it's good. I want it. I wanted so bad. So especially after how well they are executing this season. Yes. But let's get back to the business at work and let's dive into the feedback for.

[00:11:45] Like we said, season three, episode six, uh, Genesis, uh, first piece of feedback comes from Teresa Harper. And Teresa says, I loved it. I could see that Sarah, that scenario happening with their personalities. Definitely something different. Yeah. I mean, we mentioned it. One of our favorite episodes of the series of the season. Oh, I'll stick around with series. I'll say that easily. Yep. Next up friend of the show, Becky Anderson. She says, I didn't hate it.

[00:12:13] Beth was my favorite from the OG show. So happy with any reason slash way. They found a way, uh, any reasons last way. They found a way to bring her back to my screen. Amen. Sister. Yep. We said it was great to see her again. So let's, uh, let's see who else we can figure out a way to bring back. Maybe. Ooh. Yeah. Uh, next piece of feedback comes from Matt King. And Matt says, really enjoyed that.

[00:12:41] A what if they had met in different circumstances and great to see Beth back after being killed in such an avoidable way back in season five. You know, what's funny is I actually went on YouTube and rewatched, uh, after we watched Genesis, I went back and rewatched the whole death scene. And Matt's got a point. It really was point. It was an accidental death. It was, uh, yes, yes. It was an accidental death. It was a pointless death. It was the worst. Yeah.

[00:13:08] Uh, a nice touch to have Luis appear briefly as Beth's neighbor near the end. It's just nice to have one episode away from the grind where they can both smile and have fun. Plenty of time returned to the bleak to return to the bleaker stuff. And they will in a hurry. But I agree. I think especially Negan and Maggie, it's nice to see them in a little bit of a slant. I mean, disposition, even if it's just for one sideways episode. Um, and I liked that they were both still very flawed.

[00:13:36] You know, Maggie was, had such arrested development and Negan just could not ever, ever get out of his own way. Yeah. Agreed. Um, coming up next from Deborah Ulmer. Hi, Ben and Alex. I really liked this walking dead. What if episode? I think they blended it well with what we knew about Maggie and Negan, their background, personalities, who they are now. And the fun little Easter egg lines were all true to them. And of course, was there any doubt that Emily Kinney was going to sing in this episode?

[00:14:06] Lol. This was a nice reprieve because we're going to see all hell break loose in the next episode. Have a good one, y'all. Yes, we are. And I told, I called it in the season preview when we knew that Beth was coming. There would be singing. Of course. I mean, it's Emily Kinney. You can't not have Emily or Beth singing at some point. I could not agree more, but it was just so nice to have her back in this world. Yes. Uh, next piece of feedback comes from geek Johnson. Uh, this season is so strange to me.

[00:14:35] Eight episodes, two wasted on last season's corny villains, and now, uh, and now one about fantasy land. So basically a five episode season. Strange. That being said, for what it was, the episode was pretty darn good. It didn't feel like a walking dead show. My 14 year old daughter laughed at me watching it. She said the zombie people got me watching a lifetime Hallmark episode. It was entertaining to me and would have gone great as a change of pace back when the seasons were longer.

[00:15:05] It just seemed weird to me to use one of your eight cut down to six episodes on what it on a what if story. This episode is what tales of the walking dead should have been like. Oh, well, hopefully these last two episodes go hard. You know, there's a lot of good points in there. Relating it to the tales of the walking dead and what it should have been. I, I agree and disagree like tales of the walking dead is a separate, like one off story.

[00:15:33] And they could do these with that. Yes. But I don't think this is exclusively what, what tales of the walking dead should have been. And I still feel like, and we talked a little bit about this last week to what we saw from these characters of Maggie and Negan in this alternate timeline was very important to how we view these characters going forward. So it, I feel like it was merited and I do agree. He's, he is absolutely right.

[00:16:01] In eight separate eight episode season is essentially only five because yes, you already threw away two on the Dama and the Crow at the first two were writing off two characters while introducing us to two more. And then we get this as a what if. Um, so yeah, he's right. In essence, this was only really a five episode. Yep. Um, but no, I, I thought you made some very, very good points.

[00:16:26] Uh, I also thought it, it started off like a Hallmark episode, but then once gunplay was involved, it, it, it moved more into the lifetime territory. I will, I will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good, that's a good comparison because Hallmark and lifetime are different. They are movies. Hallmark movies. If you've seen one, you've seen them all. And there's never been a gun once. No. And I, I'm sorry for anybody that offends because I know people that bothers when I say that, but people.

[00:16:55] No, that's the beauty of them. They're all the same movie. And that's why you go to them. They're consistent. They're comfortable. It's like you, you eat the gingerbread cookie, not because it's the greatest cookie, but because it's always a good cookie. It's always a good cookie. Gingerbread cookies are amazing. They, yes, but there's all, they're always good as well. I'm, you know, I don't know. I'm, I'm ranting. You got me thinking my gingerbread stances now. It's, it's fine. All right. Next email comes to, or next comment comes to us from Robin Springer.

[00:17:24] Oh my God. They went there. Maggie actually said you eat like it's your last day on earth. Yeah. I caught that too. And I loved it. It was good to see Beth. Although I would have said she'd end up in New York. Although I wouldn't have said she ended up in New York city. Ironic for her to talk about living her own life after being suicidal in season two. Maggie has peak first daughter energy. I know Patricia, but she was a lot older trying to save the farm, even though she doesn't really like farming.

[00:17:54] Ironic. She's escaping an unhappy marriage when she's so, she was so happy with Glenn. Negan is still manipulated. Negan messing with Maggie's head and embarrassing her in the restaurant. His spots haven't really changed. I liked the episode better the second time through. Also, I usually skip the opener, but it's completely different for this episode and worth watching. By the way, JDM played Denny Duquesne. Is he's love interest on gray, not ER. And he died. Okay. It was on gray's anatomy and not ER.

[00:18:24] That makes me happy to know. Yep. Well, I think I said that, that I was like, I don't believe it was ER. It was probably gray's, but thank you Robin for confirming that for us too. Correct. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Escaping an unhappy marriage when she was so happy with Glenn, I kind of made that point too, that like it took the apocalypse for her to find happiness in some weird ways. Took the apocalypse for someone like Carol to find strength. Yeah, that's also true.

[00:18:53] So it, it, everyone responds to trauma response to these incidents differently. And yeah, I, I do think it's a really interesting way of, of looking at that. And the whole icon, like ironic for Beth to talk about her living her own life after being suicidal in season two, that I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're talking about like a world where everything is normal as, as opposed to a world where everybody is dying because there are zombies. Yeah. I think, I think I'd like to know a bit more of that point.

[00:19:22] I think I'd love to hear a bit more of that elaborated cause I didn't quite, I didn't quite follow the logic jump and how those two things were necessarily related there. Well, but I mean, at the same time, they're both an escape for Beth. Sure. Yes. Suicide, suicide is a permanent escape. Whereas moving to New York was an escape from the farm life. So yeah. Mundanity, a certain type of being dead because you're not living. So Beth still like Beth actually escaped, but just in a different way. Yeah. I like it. Although she's right.

[00:19:52] She'd probably go to Nashville before she went to New York. That yeah, she probably would have. Cause that's a hell of a lot. I think that's closer to Atlanta. And that's also around the time that Taylor Swift dad was buying that first album for her. So yeah, like that, that's what she would go to Nashville to make that happen. Yeah. Uh, but you know, they had to bring it to New York because it's dead city. They had to. That's so true. Next piece of feedback comes from Andy Fisher. I always liked these. What if stories? And I thought this was really well done.

[00:20:23] Did anybody find Easter eggs in the background? I couldn't, but I did see one or two extras walking a little funny. I didn't pay attention to that, but that's funny to hear. I like the idea here that often it's friends that push us to go beyond our comfort levels as Negan challenged Maggie here to take a detour on her life plan. Is this the first walking dead show with cell phones? Ooh, pretty sure it is. Cause I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be, they wouldn't be working.

[00:20:50] Unless in the premiere when Rick was on the phone, maybe with, uh, Lori and then he was in the car with Shane. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know, but there could have been a flashback episode with a cell phone, but yeah, I think that's a great question. Yeah. Uh, is this the first walking dead episode without any zombies? Uh, you might be right. Hmm. I don't know.

[00:21:16] For some reason, I feel like we've gotten episodes where there, there were no walkers, but we were still in the, that world. Yes. I could also argue that Titty Cocker was in the beginning of the episode. This is also true. Yes. This is also true. I was clocking that to see, uh, the first episode where almost nobody dies. Hmm. Hmm. It's unknown if Negan delivered a kill shot or not. I think we're probably meant to believe that he did.

[00:21:45] It could have been a warning shot, but yes, it's most likely a kill shot. I would agree. Could have. Uh, it broke my heart to see, oh wait, did anybody think that Simon was going to show up at the restaurant? No, but I wish. Yeah. Things would have gone very differently at that point. Um, it broke my heart to see Beth, yet it was beautiful to see her and Maggie in this zombie free alternate reality and the sisters singing together. I was surprised that they didn't sing the parting glass from season three.

[00:22:15] Does anybody know the name of the songs that the sister sang in the episode? Was anybody else waiting for the sinister real world to creep into this alternate alternative reality and plunge everyone into doom and despair? I hope the show continues for a long time and the great and the great writing here in this alternative reality. Negan is a kick ass car sale. Um, I don't think, I don't think he was a car salesman. I think he was not.

[00:22:43] He negotiated franchise deals. Yes. That was his role. Yeah. And then he went on to, to negotiate other things for other companies. Right. Worked for car dealerships, but he was not a car sales. Correct. Correct. Great feedback, Andy. Thanks. Yes. All right. Coming up next from Dre, E. Mononi. Fate lines, same length and curve. You've lived many lives together. Oh, that one hit hard.

[00:23:12] The thing about the walking dead is that everyone who has survived has had to reinvent themselves. And I think the time of Maggie and Negan knowing each other also includes several lifetimes that they have existed together. That's true. That's a good point. It really is because I mean, Negan alone has been four different guys in the time that we've seen him on the show. Maggie, I was just thinking about that. Um, when I was rewatching the episode today, just like who she was on the farm versus who

[00:23:38] she was with regards to the governor versus who she was in Alexandria, the hilltop. And now like, damn, she's reinvented herself a hundred times. Yeah. Um, uh, their fates are bound to each other. Maggie has always represented living consequences to Negan, a visual reminder of the choice he made to be brutal. And you know what? That comes up in this week's episode. That really does. It, it, it, and it's, it's one of the most telling things that they could have given us to explain

[00:24:07] Negan's motivations this season. Yeah. Um, Negan is the constant reminder of losing Glenn to Maggie. The reason her son has no father. So that scene felt really interesting to me as I thought about the literal translation of the two true timeline. Seeing Beth and Maggie interact was again, was good for my soul. Even if it was make-believe land, is this meant to be Negan's daydream as he disassociates after his latest brutality? I kept trying to figure out whose mind we were in and connected to current times.

[00:24:35] I honestly don't think it was anyone's. I don't think we were meant to believe anyone who was daydreaming this or anyone was, was having a psychotic break. I truly just think that the show's universe was giving us an alternate look like this. This is not connected to Maggie or Negan. Neither of them had this thought. I don't think. Yeah. Like, I agree. I feel like this was just a play off of that one line where I bet we would have been friends in another life. Right. And they gave us what that looked like.

[00:25:03] And it was all a point to show us how these two characters tie together. And how their experiences in the post-apocalyptic world have shaped who they became later in life because they're both very different than the way they are in the what if, even though they're both still very similar. Yes. Yeah. Um, uh, the ending was sad. It felt like no matter what Maggie Maggie and Negan tried to do or what they learned, they can't escape their current plights. Where do we go from here?

[00:25:33] With two episodes left. I'm guessing they will be packed and they are man. Yeah. I've got, uh, but that moves us on to the email feedback that we got. Oof. Uh, and I know that was just the Facebook feedback. I know. Great job fans. This was great. Keep it up for the pen ultimate and the, uh, and the finale. Speaking of pen ultimate, um, we do have one voicemail this week.

[00:26:03] We're going to play that now. Um, because it comes, I've already, I don't ordinarily listen to the feedback ahead of time. Uh, but this one was only 20 seconds long. So I, I did actually listen to it cause I was like, what could they have possibly said in, in 20 seconds? But this one comes from Archmaster Rennie. So thank you, Rennie for, for sending us something. And thank you for this because this actually helps. We talked a little bit last week about what do you call the episode before the pen ultimate, the parapenultimate question.

[00:26:34] And Archmaster Rennie has an answer for us. Archmaesters always know. Hey, Ben and Alex Archmaester Rennie here with a handy grammatical note for you. The episode before the pen ultimate episode is the anti pen ultimate episode, not anti penultimate, a N T E anti penultimate.

[00:26:58] Now, you know, I am going to use that in front of my mother at some point and blow her socks off or make her be like, that's not right. Like, no, no, you, you look that up. Cause again, Archmasty clearly studied at the Citadel knows what she's talking about. So that's fantastic. Yeah. So, but thank you again, uh, Rennie for sending that in. Cause that was hugely helpful. I didn't know it was called the anti, uh, anti pen ultimate. So absolutely not.

[00:27:25] You, the, I was today years old when I learned. Nice. What that is. Nice. But yeah, but that being the only voicemail is kind of a bummer because it also means we didn't get one from, from Steve this week. But he is away. He, he is. He didn't leave one for lanterns either, which made me sad. He did let us know that he wasn't going to be able to leave. Um, and I don't actually, I don't know if he's going to be able to leave one next week either. I think we're not going to hear from him until we're covering the finale.

[00:27:51] Hopefully though, he live steves us for every episode that he misses and we can just run them back to back on that finale episode as a gift to everyone. Because I was kind of hoping he was going to call on us and like say, Oh, I'm not going to be writing into you guys. LOL JK. I'm never going to miss a week. Yeah. Yeah. Like Colin did. That would have been nice. That would have been nice. Yeah. Yeah. Might want to download that Exxon Mobil rewards plus app. Yeah. Are you the Exxon tiger? I am. Yeah.

[00:28:18] You know, new users can earn $10 in points, five bucks after your first purchase and five after your second. That's a lot. That's a whole lot. It is. Well, Hey, you get on that download buddy. I will. Loading. Download the Exxon mobile rewards plus app and join today. Exxon. Trust the tiger. For details, visit Exxon offer.com. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast.

[00:28:46] Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. Real value shows up in reliability.

[00:29:14] You don't have to second guess like a set of Firestone all season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence, inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride. No matter the road. Season after season. Firestone all season tires. For durability, you can count on. Just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900.

[00:29:40] But let's dive into the emails in which we do only have two. So we'll go into those now. And the first one comes from Neil Gilmartin. And Neil says, hi, Ben and Alex. My first time writing in. That's awesome. Love that. Love that so much. First, just let me say how much I enjoy your weekly takes on Dead City. Frankly, through much of season two, it was these weekly takes that were a reason to watch the show. Not the cause effect relationship I would have hoped for, but it is what it is.

[00:30:10] That's awesome. Thank you so much, Neil. That's truly touching. That's awesome. That's why we do it. That's why I love hearing it. Anyway, season three has been so much better. Regarding episode six in particular, I think it worked really, really well, partly because it will influence how willing the viewers are to accept whatever happens next in the main story. It's ingenuous in a way, in a way, the writers created an alternate reality out of thin air and yell it yet.

[00:30:39] It will impact how we perceive the relationship between Negan and Maggie in the real timeline. So the writers have kind of a filled in narrative gap, have kind of filled in narrative gaps in the main plot to get more buy in from us viewers for the events they are about to unfold in episodes seven and eight. Quite a cheeky tactic, but it works for me. I'd be surprised now if Maggie and Negan don't end up supporting each other when it really matters.

[00:31:06] By the way, I loved it when Ben said this episode might have been filler, but it filled me up. Very nice. I'll be stealing that. But I don't fully agree that the episode was filler because it fundamentally changes how we view the relationship between our protagonists. So it serves a very real purpose, incredibly moving the plot forward, in my opinion. All the best, Neil. No, Neil, all the best to you.

[00:31:34] Like, first off, thank you for letting our podcast of all the podcasting podcasts be the first one you write in for. Yeah. I don't know what other podcasts you listen to, if any. Humbling nonetheless. It is. And that was great feedback, too. And I love that you said it might be that you love that when I said it might be filler, but it filled me up because I still feel that way. Like that episode was like if it was a filler episode, it it worked.

[00:32:02] But after after I've been sitting with it for a little while, I I'm with you on that. Neil, I don't think it was a filler episode. I think it it really did build up more this relationship between me and Maggie that work that we're going to need to trust going forward. And when we break down this week's episode, I I understand that even more. Hundred percent.

[00:32:25] And and Neil, while I'm not going to be salty about the fact that you didn't specify any of my specific feedback, that's fine. I don't care. I'm not going to I'm not going to hold on to that. I'll agree with you. I thought the storytelling was ingenious the way that they created the the the the world and they gave you these characters that we know and love. And they asked you that question, take away the decisions that have had to be made that we know of. And how do these folks move on? Who do they become?

[00:32:55] And while you said that it changes our view of the relationships between the protagonist, I don't necessarily agree with that. I think it could change, but it could also reaffirm.

[00:33:08] I don't think last week taught me anything other than damn my biggest fear that Maggie can't move on and or that Negan can't get out of his own way was just confirmed with this episode that like damn like that one thing that I am worried is their Achilles heel. No matter what universe they're in, man, it's a problem.

[00:33:31] I don't know if I completely agree with that after this week's episode, but we'll we'll go into that when we start breaking down the episode. I'm so happy you brought that up because as I was watching this week's episode, I was curious. What did last week's episode tell me about this episode? And I actually didn't come up with much. So I'm excited to hear that you have some thoughts on that because I could use some education, I think. Okay. All right. That's fair. But Ben, that leap. It's time to my favorite. My specialty.

[00:34:01] It's about time for me to get Colin still. Well, baby. I Colin, let's see what you got. What is this robot robot chicken ass intro we got going on? Has it been this way the whole season? I blocked it out because zombie Seth green and idle hands has prevented me from ever watching anything else. He's in maybe Colin. I love you sometimes. And then sometimes I just question Seth green and. And I'll hands were phenomenal. And robot chicken is fantastic. There is also that. All right.

[00:34:31] Let's see what this next stanza has. I'm doing my notes in chronological order to the episode. so it keeps my hands off that pack of double-stuffed Oreos with the red cream because it reminds me of Negan's big fantastical entrance 13 years ago. Way to rile up the crowd, sir. Where's the yelling street meat vendors and foggy sidewalks? How'd they fix up the city so fast after the Chitauri invasion of 2012? How are people getting into the city after the giant alien being filmed by T.J. Miller destroyed the Brooklyn Bridge in 2008? These are the questions that haunt my brain every day I'm at work.

[00:35:01] Bear with me. I gotta admit, JDM and Lauren Cohen have great acting chemistry. Although Negan better fix his posture if he's ever gonna amount to that backbending thing he's famous for. Again, it was the peacoat. That guy's got too much hair and not enough mustache to be Simon. Quit pulling my leg. Yo, Negan, brother, brother, brother. Guns and New York do not mix. Not anymore. I mean, under air, you know. I gotta end this here or I'll be writing all day. So I'll leave you with a little ditty.

[00:35:30] Ahem. Brittle and brisk, unapologetic Brooklyn streets brought bitter monster Mommy Maggie and noisy, nonchalant Negan together. As bold baseball bat-swinging Negan bellows about a billionaire bully while beating batting cage balls before busting to behold blissful, busking Beth softly singing cinnamon-tinged Santa songs on sunlit city sidewalks. Oh, and Negan kills the guy. Allegedly, okay? Innocent till proven guilty. Well done, by the way.

[00:35:58] Because I was reading along with that for the first time as you were reading it. And that was good. I'll tell you what. I love that you have the Colin at the end. So it gives my mouth and my time to limber up before we get there. Because, yeah, he always, he gives me the good stuff, man. I love it. Colin, I love it. God, you sometimes, Colin, I love you. And sometimes you infuriate me. Again, I'm going back to that first dance that was Seth Green in idle hands.

[00:36:24] But bringing up the Chitauri invasion to TJ Miller, nicely done. I was curious, in this world, how is Maggie not getting that much for the farm when in reality she's just selling it to make a data center? Too soon. Too soon. They're taking over my favorite golf course and putting a data center, which is the new version of they pay paradise and put up a parking lot. Put up a parking lot. I sure did. They're tearing down a golf course. They are.

[00:36:54] Rest in peace, Dolphin Highlands. You are a great $20 million investment. Ugh. Man, what can you do? Yep. It sucks. It does. But thank you to everybody for all the fantastic voicemail this week. We had more than we usually do, and we loved every second of it. So keep it coming. There's two more episodes left. This penultimate episode, Hourglass, which we're just about to get ready to break down, and of course the finale, plus any thoughts you have on the season as a whole.

[00:37:22] So keep that feedback coming. And with that said, let's dive into it. It is the penultimate season three, episode seven, Hourglass. You specifically asked me to do the summary this week, so I'm going to turn it over to you. Thank you kindly. This episode begins in the same moment we left the team in for two straight episodes now, the aftermath of Fabian and Cockenspiel's murder at the hands of Negan. After Dillard uncovers the scene and Negan takes out Titicaca,

[00:37:53] he goes full evil leader and self-mutilates as he tries to rally the heroes to his side in taking out Negan. Renata is still clinging to law and order, but the whole time she doubts her decision making. Maggie tries her damage to reason with and rescue Negan, but Dillard's gone psycho killer and won't back down. The episode ends in a tense standoff with Renata dying, lying there dying from a bullet wound inflicted by Dillard and Luis's life in danger, unless Maggie sells out Negan again. Yep.

[00:38:23] Well done. Thank you. I meant, you know what? I hate autocorrect sometimes because that was supposed to be a really good deep cut where I said, uh, Dillard goes full evil leaper and self-mutilates. And that's for my quantum leap, evil leaper. That's for my quantum leap fans out there. Yeah. Well, that's all right. When you said during the summary that Dillard got all cycle killer, I wanted to say casca say. Yes, sir. I was going for that. In my mind, I was trying to say with the cadence. Um, what'd you think of this episode,

[00:38:52] dude? Okay. So as we said before, like, you know, like as we've kind of revealed, as we've been going through, we have the opportunity to watch the episodes before they air. And we, we now have, we already have access to the finale. I know. I can't wait until we're done recording. I know. And this was another one of those instances. I mean, like, thankfully we're recording this on a Friday night, so I don't have to work in the morning, which means I can watch the finale when we're done, which I'm probably going to do.

[00:39:21] And what killed me was when this episode ended, like I couldn't even, you know, we've been saying we've been going into this blind. We haven't been watching like any previews for upcoming episodes, any trailers for this or anything. So that even if I wanted to go online and watch the preview for the finale, I couldn't do it because it's not out there yet. That's so true.

[00:39:46] And it was killing me because I wanted to know what happened next. I need to know what happens next. Yes. Yes. Um, this, this penultimate episode did so good at literally setting up what was, what is going to be the finale of this episode. It left us hanging. It left us on the edge of our seats. It gave us something that we haven't,

[00:40:13] that we've claimed we haven't had all season. And I'm not disappointed at all. We got a big bad. And it was the right time. It was someone that was correctly put in this position. Um, I, I see how it happened and yeah, I'm really content with this being the big bad. Um, Dillard, you dick. Wow. The car, the cars have been like, it's, it's so,

[00:40:42] it's so funny. I'm going to relate it to a Texas Hold'em thing is that we've, we've had the cards in our hand and this entire season, the dealer has been putting the cards out and we've been waiting to catch our hand. And now this penultimate episode down came the river and we caught our hand. Yep. I feel like we've been alluding to like there as, as much as we love Jimmy Simpson, as much as we love Patty's North, there's something a little bit off about old Dill Dill.

[00:41:12] Um, and I knew, I knew when cock and spiel was gone, that it wasn't going to go well. Um, Holy shit. The way he killed Titty Cocker though, that was just. So, okay. So I'm going to jump ahead a little bit because I, I need to put this out there before I forget. It wasn't revealed, but do you think, because after Dillard shoots Renata, which was a true, I told you this moment, this was a true, like when it happened,

[00:41:42] I audibly, what the fuck? Um, he handcuffs her to the car. Mm-hmm. Do you think because of his crush on Renata and we know the weird relationship he had with Titty Cocker? Oh, I hope you're wrong. Which he was in the bedroom. Do you think he was saving Renata to replace Titty Cocker? Yeah. I, at this point,

[00:42:10] anything is possible with Jimmy Simpson's character. It's a sick thought. It is, but he's a sick guy, man. He is. All right. So let's start at the top. Dillard comes into the bar and he's like, what's up, silly Billy to Negan. And Negan's like, Hey man, GTFO, I'm dealing with something here. He sees Fabian. He's like, well, that sucks. So again, very nonchalantly comes upon his best friend having murdered someone in cold blood and is like, well, that's silly.

[00:42:41] Anyways, what's going on other than that? And he's like, you know, I'm not going anywhere. We're buds. Turns around, sees Cock and Spiel's dead. Starts asking questions. I don't know why Negan at no point said it was an accident. Like, I feel like that would have been very simple to say at the onset, but I get it. He was going through his own, you know, PTSD in the immediacy. And then he just coldly killed Titicaca because he, he, he knew that would get Dillard out. I think. Well,

[00:43:10] and you know, like I tried analyzing this whole scene too, because you're right. Like, as you kind of said in, in earlier in the summary, like there's no time jump again. We are literally from episode to episode in the last three episodes. And you're right. Dillard, when he walks in, he is more distraught over the loss of Cock and Spiel. And then soon after Titicaca, then he is overseeing Fabian dead on the floor. Could not care less. Completely unfazed by it. Which again,

[00:43:40] that in itself is incredibly weird. Um, yes. Odd behavior from anybody. We're going to lay out all the little things about Dillard that led to this moment soon enough. Cause that's something I want us to do together. Like lay out all the moments that led to like, well, of course this is where we are. But in regards to you, to your thoughts about why Negan didn't just admit that this was an accident and then turns around. And as he admits later in the episode,

[00:44:07] he was just being kind of a dick in killing Titicaca. Yep. Because he doesn't, he just sees them as walkers. He doesn't see them as people like Dillard does. But I feel like to me, like watching that scene, I feel like that was more like, Negan was still in this. Okay. They think I'm a bad guy. Let me just be the bad guy. If you're going to, if you're all going to accuse me and call me a monster, then fuck it. I'm going to do monstrous stuff because I might, if I'm going to be found guilty,

[00:44:35] I may as well enjoy the crime, you know? Yeah, exactly. So I think mentality, I think that was part of it. I think that was why he didn't bother admitting that to Dillard. Like he was just like, look, they think I'm the bad guy. I'm just going to be the bad guy. Right. Right. I'm going to play the part. Yep. Exactly. And that's exactly what it was. He wasn't the bad guy. He was just playing the part. And again, he was kind of a dick and I think he just wanted the time. He wanted the space. He wanted Dillard to get the fudge out of there. So he did. And to your point,

[00:45:05] didn't see Titty Cock as a person, saw her as a walker, saw her as someone completely expendable and replaceable if need be. But just like, you know what, dude, this is going to work. Boom. Headshot. Get out. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I, again, I think that was just Negan slipping in to play the part. And as we kind of see a little bit later in the episode, like, I think he hated it. He hated playing the part. Absolutely. Yes. He did not think it was going to have the consequence it had, but he did not. He never,

[00:45:32] I think ever since he was in jail, my guess is he no longer enjoys playing the part. Jason loves to talk about how Negan these days acts like he doesn't enjoy being the bad guy. And he did in the beginning when we first met Negan. Absolutely. Coming out of that trailer, doing the lineup all the way through the savior war until after his incarceration, after the 10 years behind bars where he like had, a non-existent life.

[00:46:02] I truly think he does regret when he has to do that now because he knows he has it in him and he knows some in his mind, sometimes you have to be that guy. And like, it is a bit of a burden on him at times to have to be that guy again. Yeah. I think it, I think it weighs heavily on him to be that person now. And I think a lot of that has to do because of his relationship with Maggie. Like, yes, you know, Maggie has an, in a, not in a sense. He,

[00:46:30] she has given him something he hasn't had in a while. And that's a home. Like he, he says that later, like he admits that like, this is his home. Like he doesn't want to leave. It's also accepted in New York city as his home. It's also a partner slash friend. It's also a real homie. Like Dillard was fun, but Dillard wasn't that deep for Negan. But like Maggie was someone with shared history. Maggie is someone that like,

[00:47:00] we haven't seen Negan have a whole lot of like BFFs. I mean, Simon sort of, but you could tell there was a bit of attention in that relationship. And other than that, the next up would be Judith. So I do think him having someone to bounce. Also like, we're going to get to their tête-à-tête later. But when he admits to her, like I'm probably the only person on this Island that could outsmart you to which I say, depends on the day. Those two are 55. It depends on the moment. Depends on the play. They're eight. They're such either.

[00:47:30] Neither of them is smarter than the other. He just happened to suss out her play this time. Um, but yeah, I think it's so important that he has someone that he can be vulnerable with. He was vulnerable in this episode in a way. I don't think we've seen him be for 42 straight minutes. I dude, I want to say too, and like Bravo hats off applause to JDM man,

[00:47:54] because his acting chops in these last two episodes between Genesis and now this episode, man, like he legitimately, I talked about this last episode that like, there were moments where like when he was, and when he had that gun pointed at Simon and, and Maggie talked him off the edge and he was breaking down. Like I was getting emotional about that. And then in this episode, when he's talking about like how,

[00:48:20] like he did what he did because Fabian like threatened her, like, and like, and this is his home. not safe. Yeah. Like, like I started getting emotional again for Negan. So like, again, Bravo to JDM because his acting has been phenomenal in these last two episodes. Oh, and one of the things since we're on this note and guys, as you know, we jump around, a jump around, jump up. Anyways,

[00:48:49] one of the things that really got me was the way he said to Maggie, I need you to get what you want. I need you to get your happy ending. And that one that even thinking back to like, my hair is standing up and I'm getting a little bit teary eyed because he knows that he took her happy ending from her. So now he has made it his life's mission to make sure that she never gets an unhappy ending again. Like he,

[00:49:17] he knows that he took Glenn from her and he finally, I don't know, finally, but he understands the gravity of that and that that is a debt he can never repay. So he's going to spend the rest of his life repaying it every chance he gets. Well, not only that, but I mean, jumping ahead to that scene, because again, we'll, we'll dive into it a little bit more, but that scene where he's saying like, I will, anybody comes through that door, I will fight them. I'm not going down.

[00:49:44] And then for him to slide the gun to Maggie and be like, you take me out. He is willing to sacrifice himself to Maggie for Maggie to get the world that she wants. Yeah. But that's such a bullshit manipulative play. I know that's exactly what he's doing, but he's also asking her to put his blood on her hands. I don't, he's giving her permission, but like at the same time, like Maggie's ever going to be able to forgive herself. If she pulled that trigger,

[00:50:13] even if he gave her full permission, I don't think Maggie's too good. And that's just it. I, you might be right in that it's a manipulative move and it's something that net, that Maggie would have never done. But in that moment, I don't think Negan was looking at it that way. I think he legitimately was handing her the keys to her world by giving her the gun. I think you're absolutely right. You're, you're so right. It was an earnest offer. It was. Every good intention was involved. You're right.

[00:50:42] I was just finding the way to find an issue with it. You're not wrong. I mean, it's a way to look at Maggie's hands. Correct. Correct. And I thought it was a little messed up the second time I watched it. All right. So back to the beginning. Dillard leaves the bar in a huff. And right before the smash cut to the opening credits, again, goes full evil leaper, takes his little hunting knife, stabs himself in the forehead, slices it down his face,

[00:51:12] and then has this real good look of satisfaction. You're, you realize, okay, we're, we're off to the races. And now we understand a bit more about why Herschel came in saying what he said last week. Immediately. We pick up at the hospital. Luis is taking care of, uh, what's his nuts. Renata is just ready to string up Negan. She's absolutely, she's done. She's played it and it's over. She's ready to go grab him right here, right now. Maggie's got a cooler head. She's like, Hey bro, hold on. Something doesn't track.

[00:51:41] Why exactly did he cut Dillard? Let's go grab Negan and find out. No, no. There's a guy that can talk right there that can tell us the answer. And I gotta be honest with you. Dillard story sucked. Dillard story was terrible and did not match anything we've seen from Negan over all of these years at all. No, no, but Renata is so blinded by a previous, a previous mistrust of Negan. Yes. That Dillard fed on that. He knew that and he fed on it.

[00:52:09] And like he was playing into Renata's already built up mistrust for Negan. He absolutely was. And I will say one thing I gotta give Renata a lot of credit for was she was onto it a lot quicker than I realized the first time around. Like by the time they are gathering the gang together to storm the compound, she's already like, yeah, maybe we shouldn't do this actually. Um, but you know,

[00:52:36] Dillard again gets in her ear and keeps on reminding them that he allegedly was a cop. Um, and I, I am just going to ask you the question now, Ben. Okay. Was Dillard a cop? Yes. Fuck. No, he wasn't. Yes, he was. No way. He was a cop. He was a dirty cop, but he was a cop. Well, that's just, he was a cop. It's redundant. Um, so I, now I couldn't help myself. I'm a good little. he was,

[00:53:05] he was absolutely a cop. That was a legitimate uniform. He was a cop, but it was what he, what he was hiding underneath that uniform, which was basically an interrogation torture kit. It was a torture kit. It also looked like potentially what he used to take out Titicaca and cockenspiels, uh, teeth and fingernails. Um, having said that, that's also what makes me think he's possibly, keeping Renata. I think, all right, here's my crazy ass theory.

[00:53:33] Tell me what you think. Okay. I'm guessing cockenspiel maybe was Dillard's brother and the actual cop. And Titicaca was his wife slash girlfriend that crazy ass Dillard really liked. And this has all just been, I, I worry that someone that's someone else's uniform, not Dillard's. Just, I don't know the way he handled it. Didn't feel like that was someone who owned that stuff.

[00:54:02] It was someone that was playing with someone else's stuff. I don't know. I did. I did have that thought initially, but I want to, I want to, I want to give a little credit to the writers here in something that they didn't do, because I feel like if that word of the case and this uniform didn't belong to Dillard, they would have given us a breadcrumb that led us down that path.

[00:54:28] Like he would have lifted that uniform and we would have seen like a newspaper article of the actual officer Dillard receiving an award or something. And the picture would have been somebody other than Jimmy Simpson. Unless they're saving that for the next episode reveal. That's, that's also true. Like we could get to, we could go back to the bar and find that Renata is now in Titicaca's place.

[00:54:52] Because I also thought his gun usage and marksmanship was very suspect for a trained police officer. No matter how long you've been on the shelf, man, if he actually was an undercover guy, like he knows how to shoot a gun. I used to work for a judge who was an undercover cop. Like they, those guys are excellent marksmen. Yeah. I mean, that's true. But again, I feel like if it was the case that that uniform wasn't Dillard's, if they're, unless they're saving it for the finale,

[00:55:18] I feel like they would have given us some kind of clue that led us down that path. I hope they still do. And again, the show continues to zig when I expected to zag. The shooting of Renata did not see that one coming. No. And you know, what's funny too is so real quick, I want to make a quick comment about the whole Dillard walking out of the bar and slicing his face. Yeah. What's funny is that when we were talking about last week's episode, when we were breaking it down,

[00:55:46] I had said that I was going to jump into the next episode and watch it as I was editing our podcast. And I actually started doing that. I actually turned it on and I watched that whole opening. But when it got to the point, because you and I were making predictions of what had happened, we had said like, maybe he slipped, it was accidental and he slipped and cut his face on a bottle or whatever. And then when he walks outside and he slices his face open, I was like, holy shit, he did it to himself.

[00:56:15] I got to stop this because I can't watch this right now. Like, I need to pay attention. That's amazing. Yeah. So I actually stopped and then edited the podcast and then I ended up watching it later. But like, I, I attempted to watch the episode then and there, but when they opened with that, I was like, nope, got to stop because I got to be able to pay attention. Oh my gosh. All right. So we, I love that we're split on this and hopefully we'll find out. You're saying Dillard was the cop. I'm saying Dillard was not the cop, but knew Tiddy Cocker and Cock and Spiel.

[00:56:44] And one of them was the cop or something. I don't know. Maybe I'm, I'm, I'm playing too much fan fiction, but it's fun. It is fun. I mean, it's, and it's fun to make these predictions too. And again, we still have one more episode, so we don't know what's going to be revealed. We don't know what's going to happen. Um, but like I said, my thing is that I feel like if we were meant to go down that path, there would have been something to lead us down that path. Cause the writers have, this season has been so well written. Yeah, it has.

[00:57:12] It's been well plotted out and well, to your point, bread crumb throughout of where we need to go. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I might want to download that Exxon mobile rewards plus app. Yeah. Are you the Exxon tiger? I am. Yeah. You know, new users can earn $10 in points, five bucks after your first purchase and five after your second. That's a lot. That's a whole lot. It is. Well, Hey, you get on that download, buddy. I will. Loading.

[00:57:39] Download the Exxon mobile rewards plus app and join today. Exxon trust the tiger for details. Visit exxon offer.com. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files,

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[00:58:36] Firestone all season tires. For durability, you can count on just like people count on you. Firestone always dependable since 1900. All right. So essentially, uh, Renata and Dillard get the gang together and get ready to storm the castle for Negan's. But before that happens, Maggie asks a favor of Luis and Luis gives Maggie a hell of a gift. And I gotta ask you, Ben,

[00:59:04] did it seem like Maggie was a little bit taken back seeing her wedding ring again? Um, I, I want to pause on that. Okay. Because I need to go back to a little bit to when Dillard was in the chair getting stitched up and Renata was telling Maggie about what Negan had done and that then they need to go get him. I picked up on this, the second watch through, and I want to see if you did.

[00:59:34] Did you happen to notice, something strange about what Renata told Maggie when she says the double murder? Renata lied to Maggie. She told Maggie that when, when Maggie asks her, how do you know that the Dama, that Negan killed the Dama? She says, Negan told me. No, he didn't. She figured it out and confronted Negan on it. You know what's funny?

[01:00:03] I noticed that and I thought it was just a slip up, but you're right. Maybe there is something a little bit more behind that, but you're, you're right. She, and I, that did stand out like, well, actually, no, you figured it out. And then he just kind of more or less confirmed it. Yeah. He just kind of like said like, yeah, you got me. Like I did it, but she, Negan didn't tell her. She figured it out. I, and maybe it was an intentional lie. Maybe, maybe it was just her blinded by her hatred for Negan in that moment that she

[01:00:33] spoke, spoke, but it was definitely not the truth. Amen. And I thought that was a really interesting. That's a good call. It's a good catch. Way to point that out. Nice. Yeah. So back to the wedding. We's back to the week. Giving Maggie Glenn's wedding read. First off. So sweet. Dude, you literally just took the words right out of my mouth. I was just going to say that was such a sweet thing for not just,

[01:01:01] not just that moment of him saying like, I felt like you needed it. So I looked for it. Like that's such a sweet gesture from Louise. My goodness. And if Louise survives, they're totally getting together. It better. Okay. Can I, can I say like Louise has that one thing that Glenn had that no one else really does, which is absolute virtue. Yes.

[01:01:28] Everything about him is honorable. Everything about him is strength, but still making the correct moral decision. Like he is not a pushover. He's not a, uh, he's not like a wuss, but he is a strong moral person. He never let Renata off the hook during this episode. And he constantly challenged her until she changed her mind. And like, he is just, he's too good for this world, man. I love Louise. They have, I am,

[01:01:57] I am completely in love with Louise. I am too. I mean, and like I even said very early on, they were setting us up for heartbreak when it came to Renata and Louise. And, Oh yeah. Louise going to die. He's got to die. I don't know. I, I hope it's not like, I hope it's neither of them. I feel like, I feel like, well, that's the other question I had too, is, is Renata really dead? Because we haven't seen her turn. We have not, but it is a bullet to the sternum. It seems. It is. And he, she was very pale. Super pale.

[01:02:27] He had her body handcuffed, which means like he, again, that's the whole, he's saving her. Yeah, man. Not saving as in saving her life. He's saving her to replace City Caca. Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye. Oh, so, um, but I mean, as far as like the ring goes, it was an incredibly sweet gesture. And I feel like, I feel like Maggie really, like she doesn't say it, but like she absolutely appreciated. Had to have,

[01:02:57] had to have, I think maybe she was just caught off guard by like Luis of all people being the one to present her with this ultimate reminder of Glenn. Yeah. I mean, and you know, you look at, you look at Luis as a fact that, he's possibly a new love interest for Maggie, which let's all be real. Like we all loved Glenn, but we want to see Maggie happy. A hundred percent. And you know, it's been 16 plus years at this point. Like, so it's been long enough. For sure.

[01:03:27] Luis is somebody we absolutely, we would ship her with. And the fact that he gave her a ring and it was Glenn's ring, like it kind of ties the two stories together. It sure does. In a, in a truly, truly perfect way. And man, his ass better survive through the next episode. Well, and it's also a show of respect from Luis too. Isn't like, Hey, like I, there might be something here,

[01:03:54] but I respect the relationship that you still have with your ex husband by giving you this back to you. I know what this means to you. I know the connection you have to this. I know this is one of the, that connection is possibly one of the things that's keeping us apart, but I still want you to have this. Yep. And, oh, he's just the best. Love him. He's like, yeah. And don't say he's too good for this world because that usually doesn't work out well. No, I know. I know, especially in this universe.

[01:04:24] Rest in peace, Dale. Um, yeah. So after that, we, we get outside. Maggie's got 35 minutes to convince Negan to turn himself in or else, uh, uh, Dillard and his group of freaks are going to storm the bar and, and, and did I, or did I not call that that group would become Renata's inglorious bastards at some point during the season? Yeah. Yeah, you did. I just wish Renata realized it was never hers. It was always Dillard's. It was always Dillard's. Yeah. But yes,

[01:04:54] we knew that they would become some level of enforcement unit, but good Lord, are they, man, there's something, there's something. So anyways, so Maggie goes in and she has one of the most honest conversations with old Neegs that I've, I've ever seen. How do we even tackle the next 20 minutes worth of TV show where it's just Negan and Maggie going back and forth? Well, I mean, and here's my thing about that too. Like I definitely have some notes about some of the things that are mentioned.

[01:05:24] Like we, we already kind of mentioned that Negan admits that New York is, is his home and he doesn't want to lose it. He's willing to die by Maggie's hand to give her the world that she wants. We kind of already talked about that. And to answer your question about how do we tackle the next 20 minutes of the episode? I really, I really don't know if we have a lot to say about that 20 minutes. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[01:05:52] I feel like it's because that episode, that whole conversation is so, there's no deeper meaning to any of it. It is so surface and so real and out there that everything you're hearing, it's honest. Like everything that we hear is there. There's nothing to dive deeper into because everything is right there on the surface. It's you're so right. Negan saying like, look, man, I can't go back in chains.

[01:06:21] I'm not doing that. So if the option is flee or die, it's gotta be you or else I'm going to flee. Like you're going to have to put me down or else I'm out of here. Um, and Hey, also if they come in, I'm not going to go down without a fight. Like I will guns ablaze this. It was also just Maggie trying her damnedest. And, you know, I appreciate her trying to knock Negan out just to get him where it had to go. Um,

[01:06:52] I appreciate him, you know, sussing that out. The one thing that irritated me was the Wookiee prisoner gag. It was never going to work. No, that was the dumbest possible idea. I was like, you can't be that, that thing. And for, I never even understood where, what was the end game here that Maggie's like, you see Renata as sometimes you just have to give it time. Like, no, that wasn't how it was going to work. And that's a terrible Southern accent. Sorry.

[01:07:19] And what cracks me up about that whole thing is that he is so, and this goes back to the point that you made about how they are on equal levels of intelligence. And it's all a matter of whoever's just got the upper hand in that moment. That whole Wookiee prisoner thing comes. And I love that you called it that because that's, that's exactly what it was. That's exactly what it was. That I love that that moment came, how dumb that plan was,

[01:07:44] came immediately after he was smart enough to suss out her putting something in his drink. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. All his intelligence to figure that out. So he had nothing left when figuring out the plan to escape. I mean, a desperate man will come up with some dumb ass ideas, but speaking of dumb ass ideas, dumb ass things. Okay. You try to tell me it took all that time for Maggie to mention the fact that Dillard's face got sliced.

[01:08:12] Like that's the first time she brought that up. And he's like, hold on. Say what? And she's like, wait, yeah. The thing that happened with Dillard. Like, yeah, no, I killed his pets. It's like, God damn it. You didn't slice it. Like really took us that long to get to that part in the conversation. But still, I really liked that reveal. I thought that was an awesome, awesome way of doing that. And I don't think it took her that long to figure it out. I think she just never brought it up because if you think about it, like she, other than the fact of when she first walked in and mentioned it, she doesn't even really mention Fabian's death at all either.

[01:08:42] Or even the Dama. She's not talking about, they're not talking about the events that happened. You're so right. They're talking about deeper shit. Yeah. They're talking about everything. And this is, this is one of the first times. I mean, we've, we've kind of been led to believe it, but this is one of the first times that we genuinely see how much these two characters have grown to trust each other. Yes. Maggie admits it fully to Renata. She says, I trust him.

[01:09:10] He has given me reasons to trust him. Yup. And Negan in his own way is saying the same thing by putting his life in her hands. He's fully admitting how much he trusts her the same way. Like this is the first time we have fully seen how much these two have grown to trust each other implicitly. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's really refreshing because all things considered two of the strongest players in the game. So as one survivor fan to another,

[01:09:40] man, what a damned Alliance that is. Yeah. Um, I will say it was, it was, and I kind of had a feeling when she started off, when she offered to make him a drink. Oh yeah. I was like, where's the Mickey? I was like, okay. She's slipping a Mickey in there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then she pours it in, but dude, when he, when she pulls out the appletini mix and he immediately takes it and dumps it out and he's like, we ain't doing that shit. I was like, okay,

[01:10:10] that's pretty funny. But the line that had me cracking up this episode is when Maggie figures out Dillard's plan and she reveals that Dillard, what Dillard did to himself. His response was ass full of cock. Oh man, that was so good. That was such a good, just Neganism. I was like, that's going in the memory bank. Cause I'm going to use that at some point. I love it. I absolutely love it. That was so great.

[01:10:40] But yeah, like that reveal. Yeah, it was a great reveal. It was a great conversation. They knew they were fucked. And at that exact moment, Dillard decided first off, I got it. It's time. It's time. It's time. Mr. Herschel re you are officially the new Carl. Nicely done. You smart, Alex, smart ass little get shit done. Yeah. My mom's smarter than all of you. God damn. He is a survivor. He's got two eyes.

[01:11:10] So a step up, but like, I, I am truly blown away. And maybe this is a big credit to Logan Kim, whose acting has been phenomenal this year for his age. Agreed. What they have done with that character to turn him from a snotty, sniveling little shit that I was really tired of to someone. And I genuinely am like, Oh dude, hell yeah. He's going to save the day. I'm not worried. Like when he pulled up with that van, I knew like, dude,

[01:11:37] he's such a G he's such a gangster and he's really formidable, dude. I'm really liking what they did with his character this year. And what I really like about the whole situation too. And I'm glad you brought this up is the fact that like, he's in the room when Maggie and Renata are having that conversation. So he, he has heard his mother say, I trust him. He has given reason. He has given me reasons to trust him. That is all Herschel needed to hear for him to trust Negan too.

[01:12:06] I find it fascinating that. And I think they did address this maybe last season or the beginning of this season, but like, yeah, man, I know my mom's super pissed that he killed my dad, but like, I'm not that angry about it because I didn't know what I lost. You know, I don't know what I don't have. So I don't hold Negan to the same standard that my mom does. So it is fascinating to watch their relationship this year. And like, yeah, man, the thing about my mom is she's loyal as shit and ain't going to be to you.

[01:12:35] Like, and I have no problem with that. You know, when, when she asks Louise for probably, um, uh, the, the knockout juice. Yeah. But I'm trying to, uh, pop of all is probably what it was. Sure. I'm a, I'm just call it real hypnol. Call it a death. That, that too. Um, like when, when she, when she asked Louise for that and. Hershel is part of the plan. Like he knows what's happened and he knows what's going to happen.

[01:13:04] He knows what she's about to go in there and do. He's not questioning it. This is his mother's plan. Doesn't need to question it. Trust her. If she's going in to save Negan, then he wants to save Negan too. Like there's no question at all. Yes. He is faithful to his mother. He got through his preteen slash early teen douchebaggery. And he's phenomenal. Phenomenal. And, and I love it. I do. And again, you're right. When, when he pulls up with that van, like I, I was cheering. I'm like, yeah, man,

[01:13:34] like get them out of there. I will say do not honk next time, man. Do not honk. You just let everyone inside know that you're rescuing your parents. But anyways, before we get to that moment, the assault on from's bar. First off again, great pickup last week that this was the bar from the what if episode. Um, yeah, the fram. Yes. So again, Dillard and company try to go in Maggie and Negan take out, you know, one or two guys with their guns and then firefighter Fran.

[01:14:03] And God, taken out by fire. It is the most ironic death I've seen yet in television this year. Other than a Targaryen drinking wildfire, it doesn't get more ironic than this. Um, so firefighter Fran, just an epic death. Um, Dillard's crew comes in Maggie and Negan hide in the maggots. Oh, I mean, if you got to survive, that's a hell of a way to do it, but. Well, and you, and, and you know, what's funny too,

[01:14:33] is they kind of threw us for a loop because I assumed they were in the box of Christmas decorations. It, again, the show knows how to do a red herring. The show knows how to do a red herring very well. Before we get to that though, like, like there is a, there is some more with Renata. Like we're seeing Renata is really haunted by. The death. The Croat. By the Croats deaths, like, or the, by the deaths that the Croat caused. And Luis is the one that's there. That's like, look,

[01:15:03] he like, yes, he was with Negan, but he's not Negan. You know, like you, you can't keep blaming yourself for all of these, for these deaths that happened. There was nothing you could have done. Right. Right. And again, the only thing she could have done is kill and she's anti-kill right now. So what could she have really done in, in reality? And I thought it showed her PTSD.

[01:15:28] I think a lot of this season can be wrapped around PTSD of all of our protagonists, even Dillard to an extent of the PTSD of the world falling. But her PTSD from that moment, I thought the way that they incorporated the scenery from that scene in the, in the season. that was a cool transition. I thought that was a really cool transition. That was like some, uh, uh, Eminem guilty conscious video shit. And I really, really appreciated that. Um,

[01:15:58] so I, and again, like Luis, just the fricking best. He's always the one to snap you out of it, but I'm curious. All right. So the Walker in the hall, in the, in the alleyway that was prominent in the first couple of episodes of the season, completely forgot about her for like the last four. And then Renata smashes the shit. Is that just her getting, needing to release the tension? She's releasing. Okay. And that's just her. That's all right.

[01:16:28] All right. That's my rage on that. Yeah, that's exactly like, that's her. She, she knows she's got a lot of pent up for sure. And that's her release because it's immediately afterwards that she's like, we're not doing this. Like everybody go home telling Megan, I don't, I don't want to kill you. I don't want to lock you up. I want you to learn from this. And like, even in that moment, she's willing to kind of maybe not forgive,

[01:16:56] but forget with what Negan did. She's willing to let it go. She's just move on. She's listening to Maggie. Yes. Um, and then it's, it's that moment that we're like Negan and not Negan Dillard even says early on in this episode, like we're going to bring shock and all. Yes. And then he fucking does. Yes, he does. And he says like, you,

[01:17:24] you are clearly not the leader that we think you are. You think you are because you would have seen this coming and pop. And it's such a cold blooded moment. It is because this is someone that he's been built up with the last few episodes to have romantical feelings for. And just without a second thought, he's like, Nope, you're done to me. You're, you're use your usefulness. So we're going to get rid of you. Well, but again, it leads me down that sick and disgusting thought of like,

[01:17:53] he's better for him as a daddy. Yeah. And then she is alive. He's more interested in the dead than he is the living. And now she's that. I'm 13% less excited to watch the next episode. If that turns out to be right, but it would be very compelling storytelling. So I don't know, but it, it made me think of a very interesting way they could navigate what comes next.

[01:18:20] And I'm wondering if we go back to Alexandria. Okay. Um, what was the name of the lady in charge? Oh, Oh, I don't remember. I don't either. Sorry listeners. I don't remember. It's just not our time, but there was that moment after porch, Dick killed her husband, Reg, where she looked, where she looked up and said, Rick, do it.

[01:18:47] And I'm wondering if this is Renata to Negan's do it moment. At the end of the season, if this is her saying, Oh shit. Sometimes you do have to kill. Sometimes you just do have to kill. And if that's going to be her way of saying, take him out. Well, so here's my question. And again, this is all like the whole breadcrumbs thing. We see Dillard handcuff Renata to the car.

[01:19:16] We don't know what that means. I'm making an assumption. I think I know what that means. I think that's what Dillard believes it's going to mean, but we haven't seen her die. So is she still alive? And at this point, where is Louise? Right. Have they taken him back to the hospital? Is he still outside of the bar? Where is Louise? Is he chained up right next to Renata and therefore being instructed to provide medical care or do whatever he has to do?

[01:19:45] Because you're right. We have not seen him since he was pistol whipped in the back of the head. At any point, like Dillard threatens his, his wellbeing and his livelihood, but we don't see him ever since that. So I'm, I'm intrigued to see kind of where it goes from there. So is he in a place where he can save her? I hope so. And I'm going to, I'm going to think, I'm going to hope I'm going to pray. Um, all right. So from there again, uh,

[01:20:16] Herschel is able to whisk Negan and Maggie away on top of the, let's say the bread delivery truck, um, gets them to safety. Dillard goes and puts on M Dillard's cop uniform. We're on the fence about whose uniform that is. Uh, and then we're not on the fence. We're on opposite sides. We're on opposite sides of the fence. That's correct. That's correct. See who's we'll find out probably who's right. Next episode. I will find out you and I in real time within the next hour and a half. Um, probably because Kara's wide awake.

[01:20:45] So something tells me we're watching the season finale after we get off this call. Um, so yeah, I, I lost my train of thought. I don't know what I was leading to or building up to. Um, we were talking about, um, what happened next. We see Dillard go back. He's putting on the end Dillard cop. Thank you. He's putting on the cop uniform. He's taking out the security system, which is fascinating as well as ransacking the armory, uh,

[01:21:12] and the food killed the lady that was protecting the armory. I imagine killed anyone that got in his way, started threatening people inside of the commune and essentially says he doesn't believe any of this utopia bullshit. The world belongs to the freak. So let's take it over. Um, and is, is telling Maggie. All right, here's the deal. I'm going to start killing people. Start with Luis or give me Negan choices. Yours roll credits. Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, and again,

[01:21:42] that leads us to the point that we made earlier is that all season we were talking about, how survival was the big bad of the season. Absolutely. Yes. And, and now, and here's, here's my thought. Cause I thought about this after it was revealed that Dillard became the, the true big bad of the season. And it made me realize like, okay, does that undercut the whole idea of survival being the big bad? Do we need an actual big bad?

[01:22:09] Could we have made it to the end of the season with survival just being the big bad? And I think what they've done is actually perfect. Go on. I think having survival as the challenge of all of this, I don't know if that would have, what would that have been when it came to a finale? Yes. Is that the earthquake? Is that there had to be some sort of high stakes gambit towards the end?

[01:22:37] But I could argue that what they're doing with Dillard is still that survival question. It is, can we still create the world we want to create when there are, it's, it's the true crime and punishment justice conversation of, we've got the resources, we understand the housing, we've got, you know, like power,

[01:23:03] but what happens when we are pushed to challenge our ethics and our moral integrity? Do we stand by? We do not kill. Is there a time when that gets challenged and we have to, what does that process look like? And like, I think Maggie says to Renata, like, yeah, man, I can't wait to be there, but we're so not there yet. But I'm, I think, I think in a way by making Dillard, the big bad,

[01:23:29] someone inside of your community that is able to fester and rot like mold and tear it up from within. That's another version of surviving because now the fact you have to survive is human nature. And can you? Well, so here's the, here's the question then, if that's the case, and I agree with all of that. And I think that's the way they're approaching the season. And I love that fact in that sense, then,

[01:23:53] is it fair to say Dillard is the big bad or is Dillard just a challenge as part of the survival? And I will say that like, if Dillard is taken out, if Dillard and the band of freaks are taken out by the end of the finale, leaving us with, again, no big bad, then I think it is a fair assessment that Dillard was never a big bad. He was simply just a hurdle. I think part of survival. I think to, to quote an SAT practice test, uh,

[01:24:23] Dillard is to big bad as Demogorgon is to big bad. So a Demogorgon kind of, but like Vecna is the real big bad. So I don't think, I think Dillard is an agent of the big bad. If the big bad is rebuilding society in this. And survival itself. Correct. Correct. I think he is just an agent of chaos that they have to overcome to achieve that goal. So, I mean, it's, so then it is still a fair assessment to say that even with Dillard making, this turn and doing the things that he's doing,

[01:24:51] survival itself is still the big bad of this season. 100%. Because it's still about how do you protect the community? How do you get the community next forward going? And as much as I love Jimmy Simpson and I love what he's done with this character and like his acting chops as well throughout the season, I do kind of hope we get a resolution and Dillard is taken out by the end of the season. Me too. I think he's a great, he's a great one season guy. Um, what's his face?

[01:25:18] Norton from house of the dragon season as Ormond Hightower is just a perfect example of how to get one season of television and absolutely cook with it. And if this is what Jimmy Simpson gets to do in the walking dead universe, super happy. Maybe he got to do this cause he's crushed it, but there's so much as too much of a good thing. And I think he's got one more episode left in his shelf life anyways. Yeah. I think, I think we're going to see, I honestly,

[01:25:43] I think maybe we're going to see somehow Maggie and Negan bring the rest of the community together to fight against Negan or to fight against Dillard and the freaks. I couldn't agree more. And, oh, I can't wait. Can't wait. We're going to, we're going to find out. And like, for us, it's going to be less than an hour. Sure is buddy. Sure. All of you, all of you listeners out there, we apologize that by the time you're listening to our coverage of episode seven, we have already finished the season. Yeah. We're getting like that. Um, all right. That's all I got. Oh, I have one more note.

[01:26:14] Negan really is a gin man. He, he, when given the opportunity, he always pulls for the gin, which is just disgusting. It is. I'm so glad you said that. That's just the worst. You may as well. Oh, really? You like gin, but Appletini is too rich for your blood. Get out of here. Oh God. Gin is the worst. I, I have drank, I have drank gin straight in my life one time.

[01:26:39] And it was because I was too hammered to realize anything different. Yup. And it was still awful. When I tried and it was still awful. Yes. Yes. It's the worst. It was warm. And it was, Oh God. Gin is meant to be drank cold. No, gin is meant to be thrown out. It's meant to be dumped. It's meant to be dumped down the sink. I absolutely stand by that. Uh, but that's all I got. How about you? What else you got? I'm looking at my notes. Let me see.

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