717: TWD: Dead City S3E8 "Tenebrae"

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[00:01:30] Hmm? Ah! So what was your plan? Go after him or turn yourself in? Goddamn. Whatever works. Okay, well, I didn't save your life in that goddamn bar for you to go and turn yourself in now. Dillard will kill everyone in that building. He will burn your crops to the ground. He will

[00:01:58] destroy this entire island to get to me. So you were gonna sacrifice yourself for a community that you didn't even want to join? I tell you what, you can name a street after me. Negan, come back inside. Make a plan with me. This is the plan, Maggie. This is it. It doesn't matter if I don't get my happy ending. But I will not be the reason that you and Herschel lose someone else. You do not get it. The psycho doesn't get to make the rules. I'm not losing anybody else. I've lost enough. No more.

[00:02:28] Think about your son. Right? You have someone here and now. I don't. You've got me. You've got me. We are forever connected, Negan. We are outright chained to one another. I'm not saying it because I like it. But you are like a shadow that I can't shake. Okay. Shut up. I'm never gonna forgive you. Not ever.

[00:02:56] But we have moved past it. And not further apart. And maybe there's a reason for that. I don't know. But what I do know is, aside from my son, you are the closest thing to family that I've got left. I don't deserve you. Damn straight. But life's not fair. Now come inside.

[00:03:21] Hey, Zedheads. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:57] I'm Ben. And I'm Alex. And this is The Walking Dead 'Cast, episode 717. Which just happens to be my area code. And this episode, we're covering the Walking Dead Dead City season 3 finale, episode 8, Tenebrae. Man, what a finale. Maybe the strongest finale of the three Dead City finales so far? That's not a high bar to cross. I don't know.

[00:04:27] Last season was the death of Bruegel as well as the death of Ginny. So that was sad. And the non-death of the Dama. So it was a nice little cliffhanger. But maybe we were just so fed up with the season by then that it was like, all right, whatever. Non-death of the Dama and the Croat in that finale. Yeah. Like everybody but Bruegel survived. It's so true. Even Pearly. Never to be seen of again. Although I mentioned this week. Yes. That was nice.

[00:04:57] Yeah. I'm interested to get to dive into that finale when we get to it. Because overall, I have a lot of positive things to say. There's only one part of that episode where I was like, I don't buy this at all. I'm very excited to see where that is. I, you know, it's so funny. It will. This is the hard part about the way we do what we do. Because I want to weigh in on my thoughts.

[00:05:27] But I'm not going to. Because we got to do feedback. But I'm probably going to forget this exact thought that's in my brain by the time we get there. So I'm just going to hold it in. Just remember to ask me what I thought of the finale. I'm writing down right now. Remind Alex. Me. Okay. All right. Sweet. I haven't written down. So at some point, I will just say, hey, you had a thought. What was it?

[00:05:56] Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. We'll see if we'll get there. We will. But as you did mention, we do have some feedback to get through for the penultimate episode, which was Hourglass. Season seven. Season three. Three. Geez, I'm all over the place. All over the place. Three seven. Season three. Episode seven. There you go. The episode where we learned that Dillard was going to be our big bad after all. Yes. And I got to say, again, fans of the show, thank you so much.

[00:06:24] We have a plethora of feedback. And I'm loving it. We have a good amount of feedback this week. Again, I'm loving it like you because it seems like not just us. More people are clicking with this season of the show like we have over the other two. I agree. And you know what? Since you apparently, unlike me, have a notebook with a pen, feel free to make a note. I actually like I. So here's the thing. My bad to the environmentalist. I asked chat GPT.

[00:06:54] How is this season doing ratings wise? How is this season doing? You know, critical, et cetera. So I'll have some answers for that once we get to it. Okay. Because I don't know if you've looked into any of that. But yeah. Interesting. I have not. So I'll be interested to see. But I am going to kick things off this week. Please. And the first piece of feedback comes from Grippy Dobolino.

[00:07:22] And he simply says, I knew Dillard would be the bit would be a bad guy villain in plain sight sort of thing. Even in terms of billing. I knew it. Yeah, that's fair. That is always a part of the stunt casting matrix where if you get a big enough name, they're either going to be a really cool sacrifice or a really bad guy at some point. And this is kind of both. And we got both. It was great.

[00:07:47] I do want to say, too, on kind of a side topic that you and I talked about this a little bit earlier this week online. We got a double dose of Jimmy Simpson this week. We sure did. And it was delightful. Any of and Always Sunny fans will know exactly what I'm talking about because Jimmy Simpson returned to Always Sunny. He sure did in an episode where they celebrated a magical place called the Ren Faire.

[00:08:16] But, Ben, I have to ask you, OK, I need to ask you this question, because when it comes to Pennsylvania television shows like Pretty Little Liars, things like that, I'm actually surprisingly critical about how well they get Pennsylvania things. You know, the highways. Are they 83s and 81s? Are they 322s and 76s? Is how what does the license plate look like? Because I know be a license place. And if they're jacked up, I'll know it's a lie. I need to know. Is there a Philadelphia Renaissance Fair?

[00:08:46] Yes, there is. OK, because you go to Lancaster for the Renaissance Fair. I go to the Pennsylvania Renaissance Fair. OK, which funny enough, in an episode with called The Gang Goes to the Ren Faire is exactly what I did last weekend. Ben went to the Ren Faire with his gang. I went to the Pennsylvania Renaissance Fair with the gang. But there is indeed, to answer your question, there also is a Philadelphia Renaissance Fair. That's awesome.

[00:09:15] I was curious about that while I was watching it. I was like, damn, Ben went all the way to Lancaster when he has one in his own backyard. It's not nearly as good. Well, obviously, because it's right by an airport, you know? Yes. It's the the now it's not that close to the airport. Sure. They absolutely embellish that part. But yes, it is. It's it's not nearly as big. And it's you know, it's something for the people that don't want to go all the way out to Lancaster. For sure.

[00:09:44] For sure. And I'm glad that they they bring something for the kids. But that's going to bring us into our second bit of feedback. This one. Thank you. Caroline Petrasino. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and knew it was going to be Helter Skelter. Once Negan and Maggie survived the roommate turned insane cop takeover. Indeed. Helter Skelter. Wow. I haven't heard that term. I love unless it's a Beatles song. I enjoy that phrase very much. So. Wait, unless it's a Beatle or unless it's a Beatles song. You enjoy that phrase.

[00:10:13] That means you don't enjoy the Beatles. Oh, how have we not been over this before? Ben, I am a surprisingly anti Beatles person. OK, not anti Beatles. I'm not anti Beatles, but I'm nowhere near the acolyte that 95 percent of the listening world wants to be with the Beatles. I get it. I see what they did for music history. I understand. But all things considered, they're just kind of meh. Folks, I know you're listening.

[00:10:40] I know you're listening to this, but if you could see the look on my face of shock and all as Dillard so eloquently said this episode. Shock and all the look of shock and all on my face. And I'm so glad you corrected yourself of not being completely anti Beatles because I was about the end of the podcast right now and get a new host. I actually do believe that this time. You know, you've threatened it before.

[00:11:07] But when it comes to the Beatles, folks do have a very, very passionate, passionate. I just I don't know. It just it doesn't do it for me. But usually in these moments you say, OK, all right. But I feel like that's not going to be now. Look, man, so many bands from Dave Matthews band to Grateful Dead to Jimi Hendrix have all said they have found influence in the Beatles. And it's the music. I get it. We have today would not exist without the Beatles.

[00:11:36] I get it. I understand that. And comedy sitcoms we have today would not exist without Leave it to Beaver. But at the same time, I'm not sitting down to throw on Leave it to Beaver. Deep Beaver either. So I like a lot of their solo stuff. I think their solo stuff is is much more impressive than their as a band stuff. I think they are we can get into this offline. Super overrated. Super overrated. Oh, OK. We're you were deaf. We're going to have to change the topic back to the topic. Can't wait.

[00:12:06] Can't wait. Yep. Sorry, folks. We're all over the place tonight. It's great. That was one of the biggest dual train derailments we have had yet in eight episodes of this podcast this season. Anyway, our next piece of feedback comes from Teresa Harper. I absolutely loved this episode. I did not see the death coming of Renata. She was a good character, and I will definitely miss her. However, she seems to be our new titty caca.

[00:12:36] So there's that. I said the same thing last week. I love we got our villain on the penultimate episode. Come on. We all knew Dillard was a psychopath. Great episode. So Teresa brings up so many good things. And I think a lot of my experience is summed up with the same idea, whether it be yet. Dillard was always going to be the psychopath or yet. Renata was obviously dead. She got shot in the middle of the chest and then chained up to a car.

[00:13:05] I, as you all heard last week, wanted so badly to believe that maybe just maybe there was a chance. There was never going to be a chance. Ben, you said it right from jump that Dillard was saving her to make her the new titty caca. And within the first 10 minutes of this week's episode, he literally said that. And I was like, well, I feel like a big dumbass because I did. I did watch this episode directly after we recorded. So did I. So I saw it. I was going to text you and be like, well, you got that one right. But I just didn't just in case you weren't watching it. I didn't want to do that.

[00:13:35] Oh, no, I jumped right into it as soon as we were done recording. And it broke my heart. It broke my heart. But like, of course. Yeah, no, of course. You guys. So right. You guys were so right. I mean, again, like it was one of those situations where he shot her in the gut, which meant a slow death where she would turn. And then he didn't stab her in the head. He instead handcuffed her to the car. He was absolutely saving her. One thousand percent. And they set it up all season.

[00:14:05] Like. Damn it, we're going to get to it. But all the things that they set up that I misinterpreted or thought it was going to go one way and then it didn't. And just, man, they set up the whole Renata thing throughout the whole season. I just love Jimmy Simpson so much. I didn't want to see it. I didn't want to see all the breadcrumbs they were leaving because I love him so much. And like, damn, well done. Well done.

[00:14:28] But I mean, like even into last week's episode, you know, of Hourglass, the penultimate episode into this week's episode, which, like you said, we'll get into as much as we love Jimmy Simpson and didn't want to see him become that person, become the villain. He plays that character so fucking well. And so complicatedly. It is not an easy portrayal. It is not a one size fits all interpretation or experience like it.

[00:14:58] Oh, it very artistically poetic ending. I thought. Well, and the complicated nature of that character comes into full swing in the finale, which we will get. Oh, God, I can't wait. Can't wait. But we have more feedback until we get there. So the next one comes from G Johnson. G says, I'm finally getting to watch it. Wow. Didn't expect her to get off this season. Damn. This dude Dillard being a little crazy has been obvious, but the way it's playing out is really interesting. The finale should be really good.

[00:15:28] It was. I hate to keep harping on it, but damn. Just imagine if they didn't waste two episodes on the corny villains from last season or some alternate reality, which after rewatching just seemed like Negan fantasizing and just jumped right into this storyline. Thus far, this season is four strong episodes and a good story they should have committed to sooner. All right. G, I love what you're saying, because now when I watch TV shows, I always ask myself, what is a throwaway episode? What is not?

[00:15:57] Whether it's, you know, lanterns and the flashback episode for Aaron Pierre. Like, was that a throwaway? No. What does that teach us about more? Or I, I don't, what, how do you feel, Ben, about those first two episodes? And would you have preferred we had spent more time with this crew? Or are you okay with giving those two villains their ending in a, in an appropriate amount of time? Like, where do you land?

[00:16:23] So, he, I did think about this quite a bit too. And it, this kind of does play into the finale a little bit, but I'm going to, I'm going to put this in a way that doesn't break anything down from the finale. I did think about this and I do see what, what G Johnson is, or G Johnson is saying in that we technically only got five episodes this season because one of them was a flash sideways, which I don't believe at all was Negan. I think it was just a flash sideways.

[00:16:51] Um, and the two episodes in the beginning writing off the Dama and running off the Crow app. The way this finale ends, I feel like I'm actually okay with the shorter story that we got in just the five episodes because I feel like this was a song. It made me realize by the end of this, that, Oh, we weren't really just changing the direction of the story.

[00:17:20] This is a soft reboot to a bigger story. Absolutely. Yes. This is a relaunch. This entire season has been a relaunch of the show proper where it's not about the same old, same old bullshit. It's about something so much bigger and so much better. And I, I worry, I don't know. I think eight episodes was the exact correct amount.

[00:17:49] And I think those first two episodes were necessary for those of us that put the time in for those first two seasons to get through. I am really happy. We did not get a cheapened exit for either the Croat or the Dama for the amount of time that we put into those characters and into postulating and wondering and theorizing about what they were going to do and what they were going to bring.

[00:18:11] They both died in very different ways, but both of their ways mirrored a whole lot of what these guys need to learn this year. And while I understand what, what G saying, it's not like we didn't get to learn about Renata and Luis in those two episodes. So, yeah, it wasn't an exact complete throwaway because it was still easing us into these new characters that we were going to fall in love with. Because if they just hit us too hard with these folks, I don't think it was going to hit right.

[00:18:41] Like to give us someone like Luis to love, you kind of need to slow burn that. And they did it perfectly because I will die for Luis. I'll take a bullet for him. I will fight anyone that has anything negative to say about him. I'm in love with the guy. And I never thought they were when I look back at episode one and that horrible beard to now.

[00:19:02] I never thought I would think so highly of Luis as a survivor at this stage in the game as I do after watching this whole season. Well, and again, like to your point, it's I don't look at those first two episodes as throwaway episodes either and just ways to just throw away these two characters.

[00:19:21] It like when you look back at everything and incorporate it into the story that was told throughout this season, they were more transitional episodes rather than throwaway episodes. We had the two characters going out as they were being passed by the two characters coming in. So we did get that transition of two old characters going out, two old characters coming in or two new characters coming in. The Croat was important to Renata's story because the Croat needed to be a part of Renata's story.

[00:19:51] So you needed the Croat to be in it at least one episode so that you could incorporate that into the story. And the Dama was also important to the story when it came to Luis and Renata because it built that mistrust between it was part of that mistrust between Renata and Negan over the Dama's death. So you still needed those two characters to start transitioning into these new characters.

[00:20:20] And again, just given how last season has started, we couldn't just not address these two characters. They had to be addressed. And again, we put two seasons into both of them. I feel like it's proper, the send-off that we got. Yeah, I feel like it too. So, I mean, do you know, like somebody like, like, gee, like, does he feel like we really only got four, maybe five episodes out of this season?

[00:20:47] No, I think, and even going with the what if episode that we talked about, that was very important to the relationship of Maggie and Negan. And it pays off. And it set up their connection. And it pays off this week, actually, for both of them. It pays off. And damn it all the hell, we're going to get there. But it's paid off. And now I, again, Abed and Jeff, now I understand your purpose.

[00:21:15] Yeah, it's like, so do I feel like this was only a five episode season out of eight? No. Looking back on everything, I think this was an eight out of eight season. Yep. And I'll give it a 10 out of 10 for that eight out of eight season. Oh, geez. I don't know if I'd give it a 10 out of 10. But it's... I'll give it an eight out of 10. It is the best season of Dead City by far. Dude, it's been some of the best Walking Dead I've watched in a while.

[00:21:44] I really liked the final season of Proper. I did. Oh, I'm not taking anything away from that. All right. But I didn't get past season one of Daryl, which I told you folks that last season. And that has not changed. Because I've been getting ready for the end of year Wilhelm episode. And that's what all my time goes to. But that's for another day. Megan actually messaged me. And she was like, I was in shock that you haven't watched Daryl Dixon. I'm like, I'm not. It's a tough one.

[00:22:13] And once I knew that our favorite character from Beaubatons was no longer in the show, I'm like, all right. What am I doing here? So I will watch it because I am a Walking Dead head through and through. Minus fear because it doesn't count. So I will watch Daryl. Probably after baseball. How about that? After baseball, when the Eagles are done playing and LeBron's not a sixer anymore. Oh, wait. I guess my entire life is just Philly sports now.

[00:22:43] I'm going to wait until after this last season airs. And then I'll probably binge it. Yeah, I think that's a solid choice. I really do. Yeah, I'm going to binge it. But I will say, too, in regards to, and I promise, folks, we're getting back to the feedback. No, we're not. We're never getting to the next piece, folks. I promise. I will say on a kind of a side topic is that I am somebody like I watched Fear when Fear was on.

[00:23:11] And I fully adapted the attitude because John Dory was my favorite character. Because I love Garrett Dillahunt. Have you watched Lanterns? Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Well, that was the point I was getting ready to make, too. Oh, good. I became a huge fan of Garrett Dillahunt because of, and folks, if you've never seen it, it is one of the funniest sitcoms I've ever seen. Raising Hope? Raising Hope. Oh, dude, he was so good in that.

[00:23:40] Just like Hamish Lankletter in The New Adventures of Old Christine. Like, Garrett Dillahunt in Raising Hope was so freaking funny. Dude, him and Martha Plimpton together. Oh, my God. Were as husband and wife. So good. As Bert and, oh, God, what's her name? I can't remember. I can't remember the mom's name.

[00:24:03] But as him as Bert, man, in Raising Hope, that show, I remember watching it when it aired. And then I went a long time not watching it. And then about three or four years ago, I decided to rewatch it. And I was rewatching it as if, like, it was fresh in my head because I'd never, it had been so long since I had been. And, dude, I don't think I had laughed that hard rewatching that show. So good. So good.

[00:24:32] It's like Hal in Malcolm in the Middle in a way of, like, oh, shit, you could do both. Like, you could do both so well. He is such a good comedic. Like, he's got so many great comedic chops that he doesn't really show them that much anymore. Not anymore. But, like, his timing and his, like, his absurdity was really impressive. The way that he would just lean into absurdity was really, really fun. But to the point I was making was that I adapted the attitude that if John Dory dies, I stop watching.

[00:25:01] And the episode where John Dory died, I was done. I never went. I never watched another episode of Fear after that. John Dory was your Glenn. Glenn. John Dory was my Glenn. And some people's Daryl. Yes. And, like, he was the only. That show had gotten so bad that he was the only reason I was still watching. And then the episode where he died. And granted, I know it was because Garrett wanted to leave the show. Right. But still.

[00:25:31] Hurts. The episode where he died, I was like, done. I'm done. I don't need to watch this show anymore. But that was the point I was getting to is that I have been watching Lanterns and it has been nice getting my Garrett Dillahunt fix. Oh, you got a shirt. You got an eyeful this week. Oh, that's right. We got a full Garrett Dillahunt fix. We got a full. Remember, folks, listen to Casting Light. Yeah. We'll get there later. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast.

[00:26:01] Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. Real value shows up in reliability you don't have to second guess.

[00:26:31] Like a set of Firestone all-season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence-inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road, season after season. Firestone all-season tires. For durability, you can count on. Just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock.

[00:26:58] May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Let's jar something loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The certified fresh series returns. Your boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act, oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! Has it happened? There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. But next up, I think you're up next, right?

[00:27:28] It is. Yeah, sorry. Thank you for transitioning us back. I'm trying so hard. Folks, I'm sorry. We're 20 minutes in, and we've only gotten through four pieces of feedback. I'm sorry. It's okay. We're having fun. We're having fun. All right. Yeah, the next piece of feedback comes from Matt King. And Matt says, Very good episode setting up an epic finale next week. Great stuff from JDM and Lauren this week, and Jimmy is all kinds of disturbing.

[00:27:57] The discussion from the podcast that Dillard handcuffed the dying Renata to keep her aside as a replacement from Titicaca is very creepy, but also true. But it's not unrealistic. Sad to see on the AMC Plus post-show clip that this was Renata's end. So the podcast mentioned the hope that she may not yet be dead, which we did. But to misquote the cat from Red Dwarf, Renata is deader than Corduroy. And then he has a little asterisk, and he says,

[00:28:25] Red Dwarf is an all-time great BBC space-based sitcom for those that don't know. Not sure if it made it to the States. Matt, it absolutely made it to the States. Sure did. I'm not familiar with Red Dwarf. What is your favorite British sitcom? British sitcom or series? Sitcom. I'm torn. I'm going with Blackadder.

[00:28:54] Oh, see, I'm torn. I have three. Blackadder's on the list. Oh, my God. What is the name of it? The John Cleese. Flying Circus? No. Well, Monty Python is. Okay. I mean, that's almost cheating. That's saying the Beatles. Yeah. No. Oh, my God. What was the name of that freaking show? The one with the hotel? Yes. Oh, my God. Oh, shit.

[00:29:22] I used to have it on DVD back when DVDs mattered. Matt, you're going to have to help us out. Oh, no. It's. Oh, my God. This is going to bug the hell out of me because I've watched it. I've watched every damn episode of that show. It's not absolutely fabulous. No. Because I wasn't a fan. You didn't like Ab Fab? No. Fawlty Towers. Fawlty Towers. Fawlty Towers was so good. Jesus Christ. No.

[00:29:52] So, I mean, like, Monty Python is, like, that's in a league of its own. Of course. That's like me. That's like asking me what are my favorite time travel movies. Back to the Future doesn't even get mentioned because it's in a league by itself. It's too easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. No, but I'm torn because my three sitcoms, Black Adder. Yep. Fawlty Towers. And I was also a big fan of The Thin Blue Line with Rowan Atkinson. Oh, honestly, always. And Mr. Bean. And Mr. Bean.

[00:30:20] Love that The Office wasn't on there. I'm such a big fan of the American one. I really do like the American one, and I know that that's not, like, cool or, like, in vogue to say that the American one is more of an enjoyable experience. It's different. But it's a different show, and it's good, and there's 33 seasons to enjoy. It's, um, speaking of, actually, as a pure coincidence that we're talking about that Greg Davies got his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame recently. Nice! Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:50] Good for him. Which was great, because, uh, Carell was there. Um, Rainn Wilson was there. Angela Kinney was there. Or Kingsley was there. There's a bunch of people there. Is he involved in the paper? I don't, I don't know. Because if he is, it's good he got his star on now before they took it away. Yeah. All right. Um. Yeah. I'm not letting us get off base for another 10 minutes. Please continue. Our next bit of feedback comes from Robin Springer. Good episode.

[00:31:18] I didn't expect Dillard to cut his own face. I thought there'd be some sort of light fight between him and Negan, and he'd get cut. Cutting himself was super crazy. I didn't expect Renata to be killed either. And why did Dillard handcuff her to the Jeep? Will she replace his female walker? Renata could be a little shrill and unbending, though. So she would have been killed at some point, I guess. I did enjoy seeing her and Luis talk about her guilt at not saving the people the Croak killed. And Herschel to the rescue.

[00:31:47] It was a little bit department of disbelief that he showed up with the panel truck at just the right place. But he saved Maggie and Negan and packed some bags. Good job. And hello. Luis was unconscious right next to the burning fireman. Did anyone help him? What a shame. That great dive bar got wrecked. Well, the thing I just can't get past is this relationship between Maggie and Negan. I know they paved the way for it, but it's so hard to believe in it.

[00:32:14] She was absolutely correct that killing Negan was the wrong move, though. And I kept yelling, Maggie, why are you stirring that drink you just shook? Negan will pick up on that. Sure enough, he did. Was Dillard a serial killer cop? What's up with that box of tools? Looking forward to next week. All right. So I don't think he was a serial killer cop. I think it was just an undercover dude. He may have been a little bit shady, but I think he just went crazy in the afterlife.

[00:32:42] And those tools were just what he used to get Titty Cocker and Cock and Spiels teeth and nails out and then used on Renata. So I agree with you. But there it is. I do think Dillard, maybe not a... Okay. So I did say last week he might have just been a... He was really a cop, but he was probably a dirty cop. Maybe use... He was his... Okay. He was his date night self. Yes. I don't...

[00:33:11] He was himself from date night with Steve Carell and Tina Fey. That's who he was. I don't... Oh, that's a good callback. I don't think he was a dirty cop. I think he was depending... He never mentions what he was undercover doing. He just said he was undercover. It could be drugs. It could be guns. It could be girls. It could be anything. He could have been a torturer for whoever he was undercover with. Yeah. So... Which is why he had those tools to begin with. So... That's true. So...

[00:33:40] It could be column A, column B, and we'll never find out at this point. No. But... And I'm okay with it, actually. Yeah, me too. Great feedback, Robin. I hear you about the Negan and Maggie thing, and hopefully some of this week's dialogue makes you feel better about it. I think, guys, I think if you're going to be watching the show, just... Okay. Maggie and Negan got over the whole Glenn thing. Maybe didn't absolve it, but, like, it's not... It's not going to get in the way of their relationship anymore, I don't think.

[00:34:10] Well, I mean, look. It gets talked about this week in the finale. It gets mentioned. Yes. It's always going to be there. You know? Just like... When Ray Finkel missed that kick because the laces were in. It's just... It's always going to be a part of his life from that point out. Yeah. For certain. So... You know, and there's things that are going to be unanswered now. Like, you know, was Dillard a serial killer cop? And again, I don't think he was. I think he was probably just in character. Correct.

[00:34:40] And I think... He said it so many times. He got lost in the character. And he couldn't find his way out. Yep. That's crazy. Yeah. But let's shift now into emails. And the first email comes from Andrea Maitland. And Andrea says, Hi, Ben and Alex. I have been trying to write in since episode one. Always missing the recording day. Ugh. But better late than never. So here I am. Hope you guys are well. We're very well. Thank you. And we're very chatty tonight. We are.

[00:35:09] And it's because we're both drinking and partaking in other things. Um... Where the hell was I? Oh. Anyway. Last season, I stopped watching mid-season because I couldn't take Maggie's consistent pissy attitude and Herschel's bratty betrayal. Nice wordplay. Uh... But I listened to you guys and you kept me in the loop. I was hesitant to watch this season, but I watch it with my Walking Dead bestie and I didn't want to disappoint. I am so glad I did.

[00:35:38] I don't want to go on about every episode now, but there were many... There were so many moments that were extraordinary. The Maggie and Louise episode was one of my favorites, and like everyone else commented, I was also waiting for the other shoe to drop, which it never did. So getting to this week's episode. I absolutely loved it. Who would have imagined Maggie and Negan would make such a badass team? As for Dillard, no one has mentioned it, but we've had characters who talked to Walkers before.

[00:36:07] There was Lizzie, though in her case the Walkers didn't respond. Then there was Beta in the season finale who thought the Walkers were talking to him in the herd. That's true. Great calls so far. Yeah. Both of them batshit crazy, so I knew we were probably heading in the same direction. The slicing of his face and killing of Renata? Did not expect that. This episode had me at the edge of my seat, and I cannot wait until next week. Thanks for the great coverage.

[00:36:37] Well, thank you for writing in, Andrea. Thanks for the great email. Oh, my goodness. That was delightful. Ah, I loved it. I loved it. I got nothing. That was amazing. No. No notes. That was fantastic. And hopefully there's a season four and we keep going and you can continue to write in next week. Well, I mean, but you said you didn't want to go on about every episode, but we do next

[00:37:01] week when we do feedback for the finale, you can leave feedback for the entire season as a whole. Yes. Andrea, if you want to write in next week, too, for feedback about the finale and some of the other episodes you didn't get to talk about, please feel free. Please. And again, as we have shown tonight, we can vamp for an hour just on feedback, folks. So keep it coming. Yeah. But that leads us to my man's Colin Stillwell.

[00:37:32] First, Ben, before I say this, I want to let you know that it's currently the 11th inning and the Phillies are now up again five to four. Hey, hot diggity. Anywho, so Colin says my fiance has not watched this show since season since episode two of the first season. She hates Maggie more than I do. So you can probably guess her surprise while watching Riverdale when I randomly screamed not the tits. Anyways, is he calling this show Riverdale? I think so. And I get it.

[00:38:02] Dillard missed the best chance when he was digging through his old police uniform to say there's a new sheriff in town. My daughter has to tell us what happens every day in kindergarten by telling us the most recent activity, then work backwards. So that's what I'm going to do. Oh, Dildo Dillard is a dick of all dicks to demean and dictate the downtrodden densians of Delaware County in such a dirty and dick-dementing demeanor. Drats. Delco is in Philly. Settle yourself, sir.

[00:38:28] The fact that I have 20 years of drinking under my belt at 33 and I've never heard of a Savannah snowstorm in my life, I knew Maggie was up to something. I'm sober two years and change and I can still relate to Negan dumping out the schnapps and reaching for the gin. Either way, it's not a bad choice. I'm not, or no, either way, it's exactly a bad choice. I'm not really going backwards, am I? I'm all over the nuts on this one. Anyone can piss on the floor, but a true hero can shit on the ceiling. Abraham was giggling in his grave on that one.

[00:38:58] Ironic that the fireman got put out by the flames. The goofy Woody Harrelson looking motherfucker named the bear makes me pee a little bit every time he's on screen. Can't wait to get a kick out of him in the finale. That's a great call. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Woody Harrelson. He does. Now that I can't unsee Woody Harrelson from Zombieland now. Yes. Like Woody Harrelson mixed with Owen Wilson, you got the bear. I'm all out of notes. He's Tallahassee. He is Tallahassee.

[00:39:27] That's a great call. I'm all out of notes. I won't be able to get an email out to y'all for the finale bullshit, but in honor of this banger of a before the finale episode, I'll be listening to Hourglass by Lamb of God on repeat for the foreseeable future. Give it a goog. It's a romper. Nice. That was good, Colin. You got me. You got me in the Ds, man. Nicely done. Nicely done. And I refuse to accept that you will not submit feedback next week.

[00:39:54] I will not have my last episode without a Colin Stilwell tongue twister for the record. So see it up. He told us that two times already this season. He did. So. Still sent us stuff in. I'm definitely not going to be trusting him in the best way possible. Ah, but that leaves us to the final piece of feedback. And it is a voicemail, not from Steve Brown, unfortunately, because Steve had to Steve's credit. He has been on a cruise, I think an Alaskan cruise.

[00:40:23] So he has been enjoying himself thoroughly. That's nice. That's nice. I've been seeing his food pics and everything else. And I'm a little jealous. So Steve, when you get to listen to this, just know I'm jealous. You know what I honestly thought about doing when I was watching it the first time? I was half tempted to live Steve my replay of the episode and then send it to us. But I thought that might be too meta. That might be a little bit too meta. But I was going to live Steve it and see what happened. Yeah. You know what?

[00:40:52] Maybe we'll have to do it for like either the rewatch with Jason or we'll do it for an episode of Lanterns just for fun. Love that. That's a great call. That is a great call. But no voicemail from Steve, but it does come from our friend Megan. And it is another long one. So we're prepared. We haven't listened to it as we are. I think it's over seven minutes.

[00:41:18] But to be fair, as I did tell Alex before we started recording, Megan is finally caught up with the show. So I'm sure there's going to be some notes in here about previous episodes we've already covered. So with that being said, here is the voicemail from Megan. Hi, Alex and Ben. This is Megan Lehman. And I am finally caught up on the show and the podcast as we go into finale this weekend. So I'm going to try to catch up on some feedback. And I'll try not to be 20 minutes like you said last time, Alex.

[00:41:46] I agree with you guys wholeheartedly. This series reboot has been an absolute welcome breath of fresh air. It's head and shoulders above the previous two seasons. Even as such, there are a few fear-esque moments as I'll get into. And I know that's fighting words, but bear with me. I'm glad to hear that JDM was fed up with the bullshit and did something about it before the show went into the ground. I often wonder what actors think when shows go downhill like that. And they're kind of living in hell. So they found a writer who really knows how to write to Megan in the best way with the

[00:42:16] barroom banter. And it's proved that Megan doesn't have to be evil Megan to be enjoyable. The show is still not as good as the Daryl show. So you need to go watch that, Ben. The profanity of this season has been kind of shocking. I mean, I'm not offended, but just surprised by it. The banter with Megan is just golden. At the beginning of episode five, there's a part where they're laying out their Ocean's 11 plan and Maggie rolls her eyes at a dick joke. It was priceless. You guys mentioned the Statue of Liberty, how it was decaying.

[00:42:45] And it kind of looked like a walker with, you know, like the sinew showing underneath, you know, the structure underneath the statue showing. And that also reminded me of earlier in the season when Herschel was, I guess, like a skills lab for a doctor, was working on an exposed zombie, like wrists, working on the bones and the tendons, trying to learn, you know, anatomy and all that. I thought that was kind of cool. So episode four, I want to really focus on that. It was one of the better episodes of all the spinoffs and definitely, I think, the best one of this show.

[00:43:15] I absolutely love him going on the road and the more natural setting and the one-on-one dialogue between Maggie and Luis. I did not see Luis coming as a love interest for Maggie, but I freaking love him now after episode four. Before, he was just kind of boring to me, but that totally turned me around. I think they'll be great together if it does happen. I like that he's shorter than her. They don't usually pair people up that way. Like, that's cool to me. The moonlit dance scene was really something special, and Maggie was so beautiful when she was smiling in that scene.

[00:43:43] But I hate to say it, I think there was a moment where her dancing was almost as bad as Ashley Simpson when she did the nervous jig on SNL after her, she got busted lip syncing. So, I would rather live in the Presbyterian encampment where you have the ability to hunt and fish, gather from the woods, have an endless supply of firewood, and be away from major population centers with large amounts of zombies. Hear me out. The city just seems too fragile and brutal at this stage. I wouldn't trust those buildings. I'm not even talking about the walkers or other people.

[00:44:10] The risk of collapse, the amounts of mold, asbestos, lead, breathing hazards, health hazards in those buildings has to be absolutely insane. I would rather literally be in a cabin in the woods. I'd feel safer there. One nitpick on episode four, I believe they're in the fall time now, or at least late summer. Mulberries are ripe in June, and they grow on big trees, not little bushes. So, that was kind of ridiculous. And raspberries usually aren't ripe that late in the season.

[00:44:40] So, it pisses me off when shows get something that simple stupidly wrong. They could have had grapes. Grapes ripened in the fall. And there are wild grapes. Also, does anyone know what the plants are that they were planting in Central Park for crops? If it's fall, like maybe like a winter wheat crop or something, I'm curious if anybody could tell what that was. Okay, on to episode five. I called it in my notes when it happened that Fabian was going to be the Nicholas of Dead City.

[00:45:08] I mean, the Dickalus, and that certainly did turn out to be true. One of these kind of fierce stupidity moments. No amount of electricity would make it worth ziplining across a pit of walkers and acting as human bait. And she certainly did not need to zipline herself in there just to set off a few flares. They could have done that by throwing them. So, that was totally silly. It would have been fun to be the walker actor who got to chomp into that mouse, though, in that episode. That was a gruesome little shot. We finally get to see the baby getting a checkup with Luis.

[00:45:37] I was like, where's the baby? Sorry. It's kind of odd because he's the uncle, so they all live together. You'd think he would be seeing the baby regularly, but I guess they still wanted to schedule something. And for absolutely no reason, that one guy in the Ocean's Eleven team looks like a cross between Alice Cooper and Snape. And what the hell was up with the porn star guy? When he was standing on the stage at the end, they certainly accentuated his package. The bottle that Negan was pouring out of, I believe, said something like, Nasty Negan Six Borough Burn.

[00:46:04] I'd love to know if anybody got a solid read on that. That was the hooch that he made. Negan's serving Maggie. They're all smiles and happy. I don't know who would have ever thought this could have happened. And I really wonder if Glenn, if he could see this now, if he would feel betrayed or if he would be happy to see what ended up happening, you know, with Maggie and Negan's sort of revival here. Also, Renata literally said, we live in a society, Fabian. That was great. Episode six, the what if episode.

[00:46:33] I loved the updated intro sequence that you mentioned. In the diner, I was getting stressed out because the pancakes were getting cold. No one was eating them and they looked really good. Background of the supper club lunch scene. They were playing an instrumental version of A Holy Night that was really, really beautiful. And I like that Negan gave this plate to the homeless guy. And I picked out a little what I think is an Easter egg. The fram is an anagram for the farm.

[00:47:02] And the fram is where Beth went when she left the farm. So maybe there's something there. Also, Emily Kenny looks about 27 years old. She's like 40. That's crazy. Also, Negan, I send money when I can. That's not how child support works, Negan. All right. I'm going to wrap it up quickly here. I know I'm going long. Um, episode seven, Negan should have just told Dillard it was an accident, like you said, or told if Fabian shot the zombie. You might have believed him.

[00:47:28] Um, Dillard was one of the best eccentric characters in all of the Walking Dead properties. But now he's a fucking menace. And I hate that they turned his character from awesome to evil in one episode. I think they ruined him. That really, again, these things that make me feel like fear roll my eyes. I know you guys thought that they earned it, that they built up to it. But it just, I was so disappointed. Um, I like the fake Walker buckethead routine idea that they didn't end up using.

[00:47:54] Kind of like the reverse of Sasha faking being alive in the casket to pop out and try to eat Negan. Um, also, Morgan Jones type of flip-flop speech. Renata talking about, um, Negan needing to grow up. Like, he's a little kid. Was so stupid. And Renata went from, let's execute him via posse. To, we're not even going to put him in prison. Like, there's no middle ground. Um, and I called a couple minutes earlier that Dylan was going to kill Renata. Um, also, they shot through the boob painting. And sadly, this might be the end for the bar. It looked pretty wrecked.

[00:48:24] Um, Herschel, Negan, and Maggie fled by truck. And then left the truck running with the lights on. And said, they're going to go hole up somewhere. So, basically, they left a running vehicle to tell the bad guys where to find them. That was really dumb. So, what a cliffhanger going into the finale. Um, as annoyed as I am with the character turned Dillard is certainly putting on a hell of a performance toward the end of the episode. And for your postscript last episode, I love gin. You guys, you gotta try a really good gin.

[00:48:52] I, you know, I guess I can't convince you. But at the botanical notes, I just, I love the flavor profiles of gin. My mom is named Ginny, and she got so drunk in college once on gin, she never drank it again. Fun fact. All right. I ran longer than I meant to, but this counts for the last five episodes. All right. Love you guys. Bye. Okay. I, I would like to start because I have some thoughts. I made notes. I literally typed up notes. Don't worry.

[00:49:21] So, um, first off, that was, no offense, Megan. That was a lot to process for feedback for one episode. That might've been a little bit better saved for next week when I had the season, but for the season as a whole. But she also did say she was getting caught up with the show and the podcast. So she may not have known that we were going to do season feedback as part of the last episode. So I'll give her credit for that.

[00:49:51] Um, where I can't give her credit. Oh boy. Is, is comparing the Dillard turn to anything fear related. So, all right. I didn't make it past season like two episode three, because it was just, you could tell how bad the writing was. I never even got to Dylan. Okay. Um, when it comes to fear, but like, I just, I can't imagine with what I've learned and

[00:50:18] what I've heard that this season resembled fear in any way at all. Like maybe season one, maybe season two and Megan, I love your feedback in podcastica as a whole with the other shows as well. I love hearing from you. So I'm surprised at how much I just kind of disagreed with a lot of your feedback. I also agreed with some of your feedback. So let me quick, go through my notes. All right. Yeah. So I agree.

[00:50:43] I thought the profanity of the season, especially Negan's crudity with Dillard was a level above what it's been in seasons one in season two. I thought they really just said, okay, we are an R rated show now on AMC. We are an HBO show on AMC and we're just going to go nuts with whatever the hell we want to say. So I agree. It really did surprise me. Um, second question. You said Luis was shorter than Maggie was Glenn shorter than Maggie.

[00:51:13] I don't remember. I, I, that I don't remember either, but if so, that would be interesting. Uh, got to give you a huge credit. Usually Ben and I are the Kings of the pop culture reference, but the Ashley Simpson nicely done. Nice. Yeah. Uh, I also liked that you had sour grapes that they did not enjoy some wild grapes. Um, you know, she brought up a great point about Luis looking after the baby and how, like, why would they bother bringing it to the hospital when he probably gives it a check up every night if he needs to.

[00:51:41] And I wonder how many hours did Luis pull at the hospital as the only true doctor on set. And that also makes me think, how long did he spend looking for that ring Glenn's ring, uh, for Maggie? And then did he ever sleep? Like, did we just have the most sleep deprived doctor in all of humanity? Well, no, I mean, to your point there, like, like, yes, early on, I'm imagined he probably slept at the hospital because he was the only doctor, but let's not forget he was teaching

[00:52:09] Herschel and he did mention there were one or two other people that had come in recently who did have medical background that he was working with. So when it came time to him for him to find Maggie's ring, I think he had a little bit more time to be able to do that kind of. Agreed. Okay. I like it. Um, I agree. I meant to say last week about, or two weeks ago about Negan giving his plate to the homeless guy, how I thought that was kind of a classy move. Uh, also child support.

[00:52:37] There are plenty of situations in which the, uh, mom is so fed up with how much of a piece of shit the dad is that they just, they don't even go after the money. Um, so. And there are some, and there are some relationships out there where the, the mother, where the husband and wife or ex-husband and ex-wife come to an agreement without going through the court system. So. So I, my, my ex-wife and I, um, are both visitation and the amount of support that I pay was not through the courts. It's, it's nothing mandated.

[00:53:07] It's just an honorable agreement that we came to that we've lived with for the last seven years. So yeah, it, it all shapes and sizes all depends. Um, however, however, I agree with you. That's bullshit that Negan quote unquote sends money when he can. If he's a single guy that is doing the type of job he's doing with these fancy restaurants and this car service, like dickhead, you better be paying for school and school books and clothing. Like you better be sending a big ass check consistently.

[00:53:36] If you're going to have a kid out there. Um, also love the idea of blaming Fabian for shooting, uh, the zombie that, well, that would have worked out perfectly. Great call. And last but not least, I felt Renata showed her changing her mind throughout the entire episode. Like from the moment she got out of the hospital, you could already see her trying to backtrack,

[00:54:00] but Dillard was such a force and an authority that she was listening to that she kept going along with his plan though. She didn't love it. And then she finally had enough beat the shit out of the Zed in, in the, the alleyway and was like, okay, we, we can't do this. So I, again, I thought I did a good job building up to that. And that's, well, and not only, and, and not only that, but when it came to Renata and her

[00:54:26] relationship and her viewpoints or who she listened to when it came to between Dillard and Negan, let's not forget that Dillard was a cop. She knew he was a cop. So he was law and order. Negan was as far as she was concerned, a criminal. And that's all she, that's all he ever was. So between law and order and a criminal, who were you going to lean towards as far as your trust? She put her trust in Dillard. It was the wrong person to put her trust in.

[00:54:53] But again, like I don't go back to my point about comparing this, the Dillard story and the Dillard turn to anything like reminding you of writing out of fear. I don't buy that at all. I was not a fan of fear of the walking dead. And I absolutely loved what that they did with the Dillard turn, because when you go back and you look at everything, it was not a quick turn. The seeds were planted from the very beginning and they were starting to bud until they finally sprouted last episode. They were all there, just like somebody.

[00:55:22] I think it was Guy who said it earlier. He was a villain in plain sight. We just weren't looking at it. Exactly. And and again, sometimes that's just you have a great actor. You have Jimmy Simpson and he's being weird as hell. But you're used to Jimmy Simpson being weird as hell. So it's charming. And then you realize, oh, no, it's dangerous. Weird as hell. Who knew? It's what made it's what made that casting of Jimmy Simpson as Dillard. Absolutely brilliant. And absolutely perfect.

[00:55:51] There aren't there aren't many that could have pulled off that role, man. In that in that way that you mentioned where he was just so crazy from the beginning that you would have never thought anything otherwise. But crazy lovable, but crazy eccentric lovable. And just, oh, yeah, loved it. Yeah. Like, I mean, like if you would put like just to throw another always sunny actor out there, if you would have put like Michael Henney or Rob Mac in that role, it's Max, a great person. Yeah. It still wouldn't have played as well as Jimmy Simpson did.

[00:56:20] I was thinking Michael Emerson. It would have been completely different. He could have pulled it off, but it wouldn't have been nearly as lovable as Jimmy Simpson made it. No, but he could have pulled it off, but it wouldn't have been nearly as charming. It would have been different. Absolutely. It would have been it would have been very different, but still probably would have been as much of a villain in plain sight kind of deal as as Jimmy was with Diller. I would have dug it. So. But Ben, we did it.

[00:56:49] Well, my final point for Megan's voicemail is I still don't like gin. So it's. Oh, it's never you're never going to convince me that gin is worth a damn. I also never tried that champagne. I said I would. That's true. We never did. Maybe I need to do that next week. We never did. But I've had gin and it's the worst. Aviation couldn't save it. So what are you going to do? This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work?

[00:57:16] It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. Real value shows up in reliability. You don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone all-season tires.

[00:57:46] They're designed to deliver confidence-inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road, season after season. Firestone all-season tires. For durability, you can count on. Just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me.

[00:58:15] Let's jar something loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The certified fresh series returns. You're a boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act? Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! Has it happened? There is a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. Ben, we did it. We got through the feedback. And it only took us 50 minutes. Hot damn.

[00:58:45] Well, folks, that's it for us this week. Check us in next week to see what we thought of the season finale. No, I'm kidding. Let's get into it. Yeah, let's get into it. I'm just realizing now I did not change it on the agenda, the episode number and name, but I'm sure you have that coming. I mean, that is a bold assumption, but we're going to find out. So do you want me to read the plot summary? Please, sir. Let's do it. All righty, folks. The Walking Dead Dead City Season 3, Episode 8, Tenebrae. Plot Summary.

[00:59:13] The battle for Manhattan reaches its breaking point as Maggie, Negan, and Herschel make their move to take back the community from Dillard and his followers. With Luis and the others being held hostage and Dillard threatening to tear apart everything they built, Maggie and Negan are forced to confront just how much their relationship has changed and how far they're now willing to go to protect one another. What follows is a desperate plan to reclaim their home that puts everyone in danger and brings Negan face to face with a former friend who believes neither of them can ever truly escape who they are.

[00:59:48] We're on ESPN now? Yeah, why not? Philly's lost. Who cares? I saw. So funny story. I saw your reaction to it happening as we were listening to Megan's voicemail. You saw me throw my phone across the room? Yes. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. It was bad. I hated that moment so much. I saw your reaction to them scoring as we were listening to Megan's voicemail. Awesome. Which was funny. Awesome.

[01:00:18] All right, man. What'd you think of this episode on a zero to 10 star scale? I will give it. I will give it. You know what? I'm going to give it an eight. It's a solid finale. Okay. There's one or two moments that I definitely question, but not in a way that changes my thoughts on this season at all. And it's actually really only one moment that I was like, okay.

[01:00:48] I can't wait to see what that is because you've alluded to it a few times and I can't wait to get to it because I have no idea. I will give you the name of a character, not a character from this show, but a character from a movie that I relate this thought to. And that character is Mutt. From Schitt's Creek? No. Mutt.

[01:01:12] Mutt as in Shia LaBeouf, Indiana Jones's son from Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Wow. I did not believe for a second Herschel could swing from one building to another on a power line. So the immediate thing I thought of was if I tried to do that, I'm ending up eating brick.

[01:01:37] There is no way I would ever on first glance accurately swing myself from one building in through the window of another building. Get the absolute F out of here. Couldn't agree with you more. Not only that, but like, okay. So I, in my head, I was criticizing Megan for nitpicking as much as she did with the berries and the time of year and all that other stuff. Sorry, Megan. You know, I love you, but. And then physics started to have fun.

[01:02:07] And then me and physics started to happen. And I was like, okay, if you're hanging onto this rope and you are just jumping from the ledge like he did, you are sliding off of this rope. You are not hanging onto this. This is a power line. It is a slick rope. You are, there's no grip. It is not a rope. It's a wire. You are sliding off of it. But let's just say you're smart enough to maybe wrap it around your hand as you grip so that you can grip it better.

[01:02:32] Well, then you're not flying through that window nearly as easily as you were because that wire is going to yank you back. And third, you mean to tell me he pulled this stunt off, crashed loudly through a window and the bear and chef did not hear it. All right. So the bear and chef were outside in towards the window. Were they right under the window that he crashed through?

[01:03:01] Not directly, but they weren't far off. Around the corner? I thought. No, because he looks down and sees them. Damn. Then that is insane. Then that is completely not realistic that they would not have noticed that. That's like you crashed. Even still, like let's say they were around the corner. There's no other noise happening in that city. You would hear a window crash.

[01:03:27] I mean, there's Zeds and it was neat or was Dillard at the time still just shouting his nonsense. No, he had gone to 96th Street at that point. Okay. Okay. Huh. Sorry. I like it. I like, again, my biggest gripe was the aim factor and I just didn't believe that he would aim appropriately and like gear all that. I just, nope, I don't think so. I think most people are going to eat brick on the first try.

[01:03:53] I mean, seriously, like it would have been a Maxwell Smart missed it by that much kind of moment. Absolutely. Maxwell Smart is a great call, Ben. Great call. When would you ever hear a Get Smart reference in a Walking Dead podcast? I don't know, but I'm so happy that it happened. That was, that was epic. Um, okay. All right. We're getting ahead of ourselves. We're getting ahead of ourselves.

[01:04:21] We, I got my biggest gripe from the episode out of the way. You did. You did. And that's good because now let's just start at the top. What did you think of the Dillard sitcom? It was interesting to see that this is how everything has been playing out in his head because it's one thing as somebody had mentioned for beta to just hear them talking as they're walking. He's not just hearing them talk.

[01:04:48] He is imagining that he is in a sitcom with Titicaca and Cockenspiel. Absolutely. He is delusional. And, you know, in moments it snaps out, like when Titicaca pushes the crayons over and everything. And then when he's, oh man, when he looks at himself in the mirror and it's like, it's like anyone that's taken shrooms, but like on an empty stomach and then looks in a mirror

[01:05:17] and they knows it's a bad time, sees their entire face melt into itself. And you realize, oh damn, he's gone. But you also realize this is the first day that he meets Negan and he's already gone. He's social enough, but he's gone. Was it the first day he met Negan? Because that explosion was the tanks going up from them blowing them up with the Croac. Yes.

[01:05:43] So when Herschel in the very first episode, when Herschel was coming towards Maggie and that building blew up, I believe that is what we heard. Yes. I'm pretty sure that is the explosion that happens in that scene. Correct. And I'm pretty sure that's episode one of this season. Yes. So when the day that he meets Negan, because that happens in episode one, is the explosion day. Okay. I couldn't remember if that was the exact day or not. Yes. Yes. The day he meets Negan is explosion day. Okay. All right.

[01:06:12] Then that explains it. I mean, I wasn't really questioning that. Like the explosion was the only thing that I was figuring out. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's the explosion that happened in the first episode. I think that's where, if nothing else, that's what we're led to believe. Because they're also, Titicaca and Cockenspiel are in the positions that they're in when Negan first comes into the fram. Yes. With Cockenspiel over on the bar and Titicaca at the table.

[01:06:39] Now, I don't think the bar is called the fram in the actual timeline. I think the fram was just the title of it in the alternate timeline. And we didn't even make mention of that, that Megan brought that up, that it is an anagram of the farm. Correct. And I love that. Which was a good call, Megan. I would give you that one. Real good call. That was a good catch. I don't think we, because we've seen the front windows of the bar and the fram is not on it.

[01:07:07] So I don't know if that is the actual name of the bar. Actually, actually, FRM is on the front. If you go to last week's episode, when Dillard and Renata are outside, I specific, I noticed that because you had said it was the fram the week before it was an FR and an M the A had fallen off. Oh, so maybe it is there. It is the fram. I like every, yes, you, you called that out correctly. A hundred percent. It is the fram. Okay. It's just, you know, zombified.

[01:07:38] But yeah, like seeing all these characters, the sitcom characters, and like, this is the personalities that he gave them and everything was really interesting, but like really intriguing to us. Like, okay, like we've been questioning as to whether or not how we were going to see how Dylan and Dillard sees these, these walkers. Yep. And that was not at all was I would, what I was expecting. Well, what I found fascinating was it seemed like he and Titty Cocker had more of a will

[01:08:06] they won't they than they have kind of relationship, which is oftentimes a sitcom trope. Correct. Furthermore, though, Cockenspiel was such a dickhead to Mason Dillard and was really being super messed up. He was not only being rude, but condescending and demanding. And I just, I found it fascinating that of all the characters in the world that Dillard could have included in his life, he found someone to break him down.

[01:08:35] He included someone that was being a dick. And, and while he didn't mind it, he seemed to find it funny. Like that's, that's fascinating to me that he chose for the male guy to kind of be a ball buster. And I'm glad that you, you said his full name too, because it is the first instance all season that we do get his full name, which is his, his name is actually Mason. And that's a good M. Dillard is his last name. Mason Dillard. That is a strong ass name. Mason Dillard.

[01:09:04] That's something that Richard Castle would come up with a character for. Well, and we never really mentioned it last week either, that when he puts on the police uniform, the badge, the name tag does say M Dillard. And we, I never really thought about, I'd never put too much thought into it because I read Dillard and I was like, Oh, that's his, that's his badge. I wasn't really paying attention to the M part. And then when, you know, he's singing the song Mason Dillard, whatever I was like, Oh yeah, there was an M before it. Dillard is his last name.

[01:09:34] They just called him Dillard. It's fascinating. And again, strong name. I enjoyed it. But yeah, this really gives us an idea of the Dillard that we entered into. And then, and then we get the intro followed directly by Dillard explained to Luis his viewpoint of the world that we live in now and all of that. And like, even, even before we get to that, there's one other element of that opening that you didn't really make mention of.

[01:10:02] And that is, we were seeing how Dillard sees the walkers in this sitcom trope. But we also get a quick glimpse as to how Dillard sees himself. Because when he looks into the mirror, his face disappears. It disappears. He doesn't see himself anymore because the, the, he, who he was like has disappeared. And so when he's looking in the mirror, he sees himself as a faceless man because that's how he sees himself.

[01:10:32] Absolutely. And it's, it's, it's shocking, but it's so effective. So effective. It really gives us just those two things with the sitcom trope and seeing himself as a faceless man gives us a very deep insight as to who Dillard is as a person. Or at least how lost he is on his journey. Yeah, that too. Oh, so we pick back up after the opening credits.

[01:10:58] And as you alluded to, as you called out and everything, Renata's a walker and Dillard is making. He's taming her. He's taming her. Yes. He is taking out her teeth, taking off the fingernails and literally says she is the new, essentially titty caca. And he says it right to Luis's face.

[01:11:19] I mean, this man is essentially like, I can't imagine someone doing that to my sister while I'm just having to stand there and watch it. And they are acting like this is completely normal. I blown away. Like, Luis, I have this in my notes. Is Luis just as broken as Maggie as far as what he has lost? Like, holy shit.

[01:11:47] What he has had to experience is insane this season. Well, because he lost his brother. Brother, uncle, sister. All in like six months time. And not only that, but he had to end Renata the same way he had to end his brother. He's the one that's finishing them off. Damn. I completely forgot about that connection, but you're right. He had to finish Chucho and Renata. Oh, that's tough.

[01:12:15] But I mean, but the fact that Dylan, Dillard, I keep saying Dylan. Dillard is doing this in front of Luis. And this is a very interesting note that I made about Dillard. And it's because I noticed it in this moment. And it's because of that whole speech that he's given Luis as he's taming Renata. Is that when he's sitting there and he's saying like, I'm not doing this out of spite. I'm not doing this to cause you pain. I'm doing this out of love.

[01:12:43] Meaning like he's taming her so that she can't harm anybody, but she can still exist. Because that's how he sees these people. It made me realize, and this made me absolutely love the writing of Dillard even more. Because I am such a huge fan when it comes to villains. I am a huge fan. And I think they are the most dangerous kind of villains.

[01:13:08] Are the ones that believe with 100% certainty they are doing something good. And Dillard is doing that. He believes he is doing this for love. He's doing this for out of because this is what Renata needs. This is what Luis needs. Like he's caring for her by doing this. And like he's doing this in front of Luis. But he doesn't realize the pain he's causing Luis.

[01:13:37] Because in his eyes, this is not pain. This is love. And it's like, holy shit. He 100% firmly believes all of this. And that makes him more dangerous than anybody else. So it reminds me of someone that was called out by one of our writers. Maybe it was Megan. But it's actually kind of Lizzie-coated. Yeah.

[01:14:08] I don't believe in the world that is real. But I do believe in this world adjacent. And that's what I'm building. That's what, in fact, Dillard says that in this episode. That I realized there was a different kind of world eligible now. And that's the world I was building. Things got in the way and I had to take care of them. But like that's what I did. And that's very Lizzie-coated. Lizzie thought that she was the only person that understood the walkers. And what they really were. And like, nah sis, you're just off base as hell.

[01:14:38] And that was Dillard. Like, he, I see where his head was. It's just unfortunately his head was not in the right place. But I see how he got there. I see how his logic led there. It's just damn. Well, and I'll make another comparison to a person that you already mentioned. And that's Michael Emerson as Ben Linus. It's one of the things that if you watched Lost, made Ben Linus so dangerous was that he firmly believed what he was doing

[01:15:07] was right and for the good of the island and the people that were on it. How else do you explain the death of Alex? Spoiler alert. Yeah. I mean, it's, and Dillard is that same kind of character. He firmly believes that what he's doing is for the good and the care of Luis and Renata. Yep. Even though Renata is gone at this point. And isn't that just such a savior mentality? Yeah. It really is. Ah, Jinx, you owe me a Coke. Damn it. Ha ha ha. I'll owe you later.

[01:15:37] All right. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.

[01:16:09] Real value shows up in reliability. You don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone all-season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence-inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road, season after season. Firestone all-season tires. For durability, you can count on. Just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900.

[01:16:38] And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Jar something loose. Aye, yes! I like that. The certified fresh series returns. You're a boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act? Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! Has it happened? There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to live.

[01:17:08] So, after that just god-awful moment, we have Maggie, Negan, Herschel trying to figure out, okay, what are we going to do? They're assessing the situation. And they come up with a three-pronged plan. And first and foremost, what did you think about Negan and Maggie kind of trying to sideline Herschel? And Herschel, all right, there were two arguments that Herschel made. And he only needed one of them because one argument was really, really, really, really, really, really stupid.

[01:17:36] And the other argument was really, really, really, really, really, really good. Well, I'm curious. Which one was the stupid argument to you? The stupid- Did I kill the bear? No, I was down with that. He actually proved himself. His stupid argument was, oh, I can't go to the bricks and see Pearly and show that I was a coward that ran away, blah, blah, blah. Like, okay, Herschel, literally no one's thinking that, so shut up. That's not a thing. Yeah.

[01:18:01] Your next point, however, of I can't live with myself if something were to happen to you and I wasn't there to, like, at least try to protect you, that's a good one. That's the only one you need. That one, I believe. And you do have a skill set. You're a very good knife thrower. You'll show that today. But at the same time, I really appreciated Negan's point of, like, cool, man, you killed a bear. You killed a dude yet? Like, do you have that level of blood on your hands? Because that's different. It is different.

[01:18:29] But I will say to not only Herschel's credit, but also Logan Kim's credit, this is the first time. Again, I've come around on Herschel. I've become a fan of Herschel. But this was the first time between the way he was talking to Maggie about how he'd never be able to live with himself if something ever happened. I killed a bear. Have you ever killed a bear?

[01:18:55] This is the first time that I looked at him and I was like, holy shit, he's Glenn. Yes. Well, yes. Okay. Yes. But he's Glenn with a bit of Carl. Oh, yeah. I can see that. I keep going back to the Carl of like, I understand the world's fascination with Glenn. Carl was more badass. Yeah. But this was the first. But yes. Yes.

[01:19:23] This was the first time that I watched it and I was like, holy shit, dude, you are your father's son. A hundred percent. Yes. And like, I see Glenn in you right now. And I thought he has absolutely earned being the third in that three person plan of how to get through everything. Like he is an extremely formidable fighter, formidable strategizers, formidable just get shit done piece in this world. Yeah.

[01:19:53] And I love the fact that Maggie trusted him. Me too. She wasn't overprotective like she has been in the past. No. She has seen what he can do. She has seen the person he has become. And he, she, she trusted him and she was like, okay, if we're going to do this, this is what we're going to do. I think, I think that's such a good point about Maggie because in both season one and

[01:20:20] season two, there were stretches in which Maggie was wracked with levels of self-doubt. There was. And that never really happened this season. There was never that moment of like, am I doing the right thing on Maggie's part? She always believed in her convictions and she always believed in what she was doing. And I think that is one of the reasons maybe this season was so strong. Maggie wasn't this wishy-washy having hallucinations in a tunnel. What's going on? What should I be doing?

[01:20:50] Like she was so strong this year. And to your point, taking Herschel's side and, and, and vouching for him was such a step in the direction she wouldn't have done in seasons one and two at all ever. But I, but, and on top of that too, to take it a step further, I also like that Negan had so much trust in Maggie that all it took was Maggie to trust Herschel for Negan to trust Herschel. It's a hell of a, of a team. And it really is.

[01:21:19] And to kind of backtrack a little bit, because we kind of skipped over this, going to this point, there is a moment before they even start coming up with the plan that Negan tries to go and turn himself in. He sneaks off to go turn himself into Dillard. And we go through this whole speech about how, you know, Maggie says like, look, you are a shadow. I can't shake. You and I are connected like it or not. And I have, I will never forgive you, but we have moved past it.

[01:21:49] With the exception of Herschel, you are the closest thing to family. I have, we are connected like it or not. And for Negan and Negan to call her Margaret and say, you are too good for me. Like, it's like Maggie, I have this written down. This is exactly what I have written down. Maggie has become Negan's heart. He, she is his reason for moving forward now. Yes.

[01:22:18] Because he yet again was willing to sacrifice himself for her to be able to continue reaching for what she wants. He did say again this episode that her getting what she wants, nerd needs, deserves, etc. is the most important thing to him. And that's, that's so powerful. That's so special. And that does, like, I don't know, that, that reshapes everything about them. I, I think in a really cool way.

[01:22:44] And, and like, and yeah, cause he says like, I don't want to be the reason why this, why, why what you built fails. Yes. Yes. Why you lose anyone else. Yeah. And like, like you have people here, like, I don't want to be the reason why you lose all of this. He has seen what she has built with or without Renata's help. And he doesn't want to be the reason for her to lose it. She has become his heart. Yup.

[01:23:10] And I think like when she says you were the closest thing to family I have, dude, that hits him so hard that like, we very rarely ever see him call her Margaret. It's happened. It, so it absolutely has. And this is what I just, I can't understand exactly what the difference is because that

[01:23:35] exchange of dialogue last season would not have landed as believably as it did this season. And I don't know exactly what it is about what they've built throughout the previous seven episodes to get to this point, but like, I feel like they have completely earned this new level of relationship with Negan and Maggie. And it's just what a season of building and creating and finally understanding what to do

[01:24:03] with these characters to earn this moment. I'm going to dive a little deeper into what you said too, about how this wouldn't have hit had this happened a season or two before. I don't think this would have hit has strong this season, if not for the what if episode. Agreed. Agreed. Cause the what if opened up to the idea of it doesn't matter what parallelogram universe we're in. They're going to find a way to get connected.

[01:24:31] It's just sometimes the universe works in crazy ass ways. It is what it is. Yeah. I think if, had we not gotten that sideways episode, that what if episode, I think it would have been harder to believe hearing Maggie say, we're connected. You're the closest thing to family. I have. Yep. I think that what if episode set that scene up. Yep. I agree. Which is, which is why what I said earlier about, I don't think there's been a filler

[01:25:00] episode this season is still true. All the pieces mattered, man. All the pieces matter. All right. So let's get into the plane, the plan on how to raid the complex. So there are three pieces. It's a three person plan. Negan is going to draw Dillard out by crawling under his head using a time honored technique since season one, episode two guts and, and like everything about it. I love it.

[01:25:29] Glenn was a, was a huge part of guts. So it was great that Negan kind of used a Zed as a shield to get through the Zeds and underneath the barricade. Crawling, crawling with the Zed on his back was so brilliant and so good because it allowed him to just crawl right underneath when he got to where he needed to be. Like he fought ahead and it's not like the death squad was any good. They're just a bunch of nudniks that have guns. Like these are not trained operatives, right?

[01:25:58] These aren't people that know what to look for. They're not going to think twice about seeing a Zed crawling across the ground. It was brilliant. Maggie went to that checkoff's tunnel and released all of those Zeds that they've been collecting for a couple of episodes and drew them out towards the area because Herschel using Ben's ill-advised wire technique, got into the apartment complex, set off a siren to bring

[01:26:25] the Zeds to him and then rallied the troops inside of there and showed his true leadership acumen. And at this point, we kind of know where everything's at. And this is my point about the episode that I had you write down about where I was at. It was a good episode. It was a fast paced episode. There is not a whole lot of nuance. I don't think to what happens from here. It's all just getting us through the rest of the storytelling in a very logical way. Like, cool.

[01:26:55] Herschel got to let everyone know Renata's past. Luis is still alive. Here's what's going on. We had the porn bear come in, killed his own person. So that's great. Took them off the board. And then Herschel took him off the board. Maggie was able to do, you know, her piece, bring the Zeds out. And then Negan is now luring Dillard out. And it's him and the priest. Dillard gets to him.

[01:27:22] And here we have the confrontation. And we got there. It's so weird because it was 40 minutes into the episode, but it feels like we got to the confrontation with Negan and Dillard so fast. And then here we are. Here we are at the moment. What did you think about this final moment with them? Well, I mean, to your point, too, about how fast paced it was. So first off, was that the point that you that I had to remind you you needed to make? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Because I was getting ready to I was getting to that.

[01:27:51] Remind Alex on my notebook. And I was like, OK, I need I got to remind him. So it worked out perfect. We're good. But but to your point about how fast paced it was, too, like it's you're right. It was almost like, OK, we're we've been pushing this boulder to the top of the hill. And now that we're at the top, we're going to push it over the side and it's just going to roll like there's no stopping it at this point. It's just going to roll as fast as possible to the bottom.

[01:28:18] And that's pretty much what this was, is that once they started, once the plan was in effect, it just went and sprint. Yeah, it's it's sprinted to the end. And, you know, you mentioned Herschel taking out the bear, which which, OK, unfortunately, that's Herschel's first kill. So first human kill. Yeah. Which can take a toll. So we might see that come into play a little bit later.

[01:28:46] You think about how long it took his dad to get his first kill? Like we're talking the satellite savior post, I believe, was Glenn's first confirmed kill when he stuck the knife in that guy's temple while he was sleeping. Just to remind folks that Glenn did do that. Oh, shit. Actually, that's fascinating. Herschel's first kill was sticking a knife in a dude's temple. And that was Glenn's? That was Glenn's first as well.

[01:29:15] Well, he took it from Heath like he had to squish in the satellite outpost for the savers. That was his first confirmed kill. And then he took it from Heath. And then later they got stuck in that room and had to machine gun their ways out. So who knows who killed and who didn't? But Glenn's first kill was a knife into a dude's temple at the savior outpost. And that's the exact same way that Herschel killed a guy today. Whoa. Killed the bear. Yeah. Whoa. That's cool. That's a good call.

[01:29:43] There's no way that's a mistake, right? Like there's no way that the writers of this show didn't put that two and two together when they made that happen. No, but it kind of further enforces my point earlier of looking at him and being like, dude, you are your father. Just like Carl was Rick, Glenn or Herschel is Glenn. Yeah. Herschel is a combination of Glenn and Maggie. He's not just Glenn. Oh, absolutely. Yes. He's got her.

[01:30:12] He's got Glenn's. Like instincts of, of not wanting to be responsible for somebody else's like hardships or debt or demise. But he has Maggie's tenacity. He also has Maggie's no bullshit, both mentality and just all of it. Like he's very, very no bullshit. I love it. That's the tenacity that I mentioned. Right. Kara just got home. Sorry. Gotcha. I was wondering who you were glancing at. But yeah.

[01:30:42] So like you said, like we get to that final confrontation and this is a man. This was one of the most intriguing parts of the episode to me. Yes. Because you, you learn that through everything, Dillard and Negan still considered each other friends. Best friends. Brothers even. Because Negan has never had that. No. He's never. Not even Simon.

[01:31:11] Not, not, not the Croat. Not anyone. He always had underlings. He never had equals. He never had pals. He never had buddies. He's Rick would have been in a weird alternative universe, but like Dillard worked for him, man. And they were, they were brothers. It was crazy. Like, I mean, Negan and Maggie's relationship is different. Like they're very close, but they're, they're still that hanging, that low hanging fruit of what Negan did to Glenn.

[01:31:37] So Negan doesn't look at Maggie as someone he can confide in and hang out with and play video games with and stuff like that. He had that in Dillard. Yes. Even with everything, he still looked at Dillard as a friend, which is why it was so hard for him to have to fight him and ultimately not kill it because he couldn't bring himself to do it.

[01:32:03] You know, which there was one other person that he loved so much. He could not bring to kill Carl. I was going to say Lucille. Well, Lucille as well. Yeah. He couldn't put her down. And like, I thought, I thought it was so. Okay. All right. So first we get Dillard taken out the priest because he said only he gets to kill Negan. And then he finally gets into the moment where he could.

[01:32:30] And the thing that got me, the thing that I like, I remember sitting up straight in the bed and like, oh shit, this is different. When he said like, man, maybe I don't want to. Maybe I am crazy. Cause like, I don't want to kill you. And when the priest had his gun up to you, I'm like, Hey dude, you don't get to shoot my buddy. And I'm like, damn, this is next level writing. This is next level character evaluation because I believed it.

[01:32:57] I believe the way that, um, Jimmy Simpson said that and the way that, that Dillard, uh, emoted in that moment. And I was like, geez, this is, this is really solid storytelling. Yeah. Well, I mean, and then like you with Negan, it becomes even more complicated because he has this relationship with Maggie. Maggie comes in and shoots Dillard in the back, but he's wearing a bulletproof vest. So like, he's like, man, that's going to bruise.

[01:33:26] Um, you know, but then we get to that point where Negan is still willing to do what he can to save Dillard, including stabbing Maggie. But I think Maggie is of an understanding at that point. Like, I think in that moment, I don't think Maggie fears for her life. She's fearful. She knows he's going to stab her. She knows this shit's going to hurt, but you know what? She stabbed him in the first two season finale. So like it is his turn.

[01:33:56] And I truly think they both understood this was this needs to happen. It was Negan's way of buying time. I have to stab you so that I can get a little bit more time to get us out of this. Well, and I don't even think it's, I think it's a little bit more than that. I think it's because Negan witnessed this whole conversation with him being at gut point and Dillard and Negan saying like, you are my friend, not you were my friend. You are my friend. And Dillard reciprocating that Maggie sees this.

[01:34:25] And Maggie is of course of the ilk that we don't have to kill to solve everything. Of course. And, and I think in that moment when Negan is approaching her, I think there's a mutual understanding it without a word being said that Maggie kind of set no senses. This has to ha this has to happen for Negan to try and possibly save Dillard. Yes. And she accepts it and she takes it.

[01:34:54] But Negan also does this fully aware that, okay, I'm stabbing her in a way that she can survive. Yep. And then Dillard tells him to close the gate and he's like, okay, I'll close the gate, but it's not until the Walker comes in and he sees, okay, shit got real. She's really in trouble. Now I, I, I have to choose. Great job because that was going to be my exact point was he was willing to kind of improv

[01:35:23] and see what happens. But the second, those walkers start ambling in and it's just Maggie and them. That's when he's like, okay, screw this. He hits Dillard. He starts to separate. And I thought that was just so telling. And even, even to the point where Maggie chops off Dillard's arm, I still don't necessarily understand the mechanics because I know she had wire cutters or bolt cutters, et cetera,

[01:35:50] but it seemed like a slicing motion that took off Dillard's arm and not a chopping motion. I'm very confused. So if you look at those cutters, when Negan had them in the shop, if you look at them, they have been sharpened on the outside too. Okay. Somebody, somebody, somebody turned them into blades. Oh, so it's, it's essentially like two swords that can also become scissors. They're double-sided because somebody, somebody did that.

[01:36:20] That to them as a weapon. Oh, that's smart as hell. Great job. Whoever did that. Um, okay. So that's how, but they are, but they are also sharpened on the outside too. Okay. So that, that's how she, all right. That's how she can't Tina and tattooing that guy. All right. But I mean, but when, when those walkers come shuffling in, like that's what Negan realizes like, okay, I got to do something. I have to do something because otherwise now she's really in trouble. Yep.

[01:36:50] I think that the, to allow Dillard to turn was a, was a really fascinating option. And I didn't, I guess I didn't really see it coming, but then the second it happened, I was like, oh, that's good. Oh, that's good. That hits right in the spot. Like that was the right call because it showed that again, Negan wasn't going to kill Dillard. He wasn't going to do that to his friend. He had grown past that. I'm going to kill the person that wronged me.

[01:37:20] And he wanted to do right by his friend. I thought that was nice. That, that was, that was a good close of that storyline from the, the whole thing we've seen with Negan this all year. Well, I mean, what really got me about that whole final moment too, when he's sitting there holding Negan or holding Dillard as Dillard is dying is Dill, he knows how Dillard feels about walkers. He knows he sees them differently.

[01:37:44] He knows he somehow has this understanding of them and he sees them more as more than just walking flesh bags like Negan does. So when he says to Dillard, I hope you find what you've been searching for. I'm like, holy shit. Like that's fucking deep, really deep, really deep. It means that not only is he saying goodbye to somebody he legitimately thought saw as

[01:38:12] a friend, he understood him. Finally, he understood Dillard in that moment. And I've always, all right. So I've always kind of found the universe's handling of random Zeds fascinating. Like I, I would see them more like lanternflies where if I see one, I want to take it down. I'm going to squash it. Absolutely.

[01:38:37] And, and this world's willingness to allow Zeds to coexist simultaneously is fascinating. Again, last season, we saw the people in Central Park that kind of lived with them. We have seen the, there was the one lady the season outside of the prison that Rick came across that in the very beginning of the season, like her husband was dead and you know, she was sad. And then you see her at the end and she's a Zed and you're like, all right, that's actually kind of beautiful.

[01:39:02] Um, so again, I think Negan choosing to, to let Dillard live out the next life as a Zed is fascinating, but it is just so, I don't know. I feel like you should take out every Zed that you come across just to be safe. Well, and, but I mean, remember we're in a kind of a different world now where these walkers can be used as something different. So you don't want it. You don't want to take them out now. That's so true. You don't want to mass extinct them.

[01:39:31] If anything, you want to round them up as they were doing round them up, keep them until you need them and then use them for fuel. Okay. All right. Fair enough. You got me on that one. You got me. Yeah. You, you are now at a point where you kind of do have to coexist with them because you, you need them now. They're not just, you don't want to just wipe them out because you are eliminating something that is useful to you now. I agree. Um, would you say that Negan and Dillard is the walking dead's?

[01:40:01] The oddest love story yet. Love story. It's guy love between two guys. Thank you for bringing up another, yet another Bill Lawrence. Oh, God love it. One of the better reboots this year. Um, anyways, so I, I, I, there are a lot of odd pairings and interesting friendships. Um, I don't know. Negan and Dillard. That's, that might be a top five walking dead friendship.

[01:40:33] Friendship. Yes. Okay. Love story. No. Again, guy love. Guy, if you look at it as guy. Um, uh, so yeah, like I, I relation or friendship. Yes. I could see it as definitely one of the better friendships, even though it didn't last very long. No, but it lasted as long as it needed to there. Yeah. But I mean, like if you, if you look at, you know, it's what makes it as meaningful as it

[01:40:58] is, is if you look at past things, past relationships Negan has had, he has had a relationship with Maggie who is more of a partner than a love interest or confidant. Yep. You had Carl who is somebody, he was more of a mentee mentor. Yep. Role. Um, you, you know, you had Simon who was more of a, he's my second in command. He's my right hand man kind of a relationship.

[01:41:27] You had Judith, which again was a mentor mentee type thing. Mentor mentee kind of relationship. He has never had a buddy friend. Yeah. Just a buddy. Yeah. Until Dillard. Cause he gutted Spencer. That would have been a great one. Yep. Yeah. So this is the first time Negan has had, uh, a actual friend. Yeah. Damn. And it ended in the way it had to.

[01:41:53] So before we get to the epilogue, anything else you want to say on the Dillard, the Maggie, the Negan, any of that jazz? I think we covered pretty much almost everything I had. Um, we, we, I, I mentioned Herschel's aim with the knives, which was really awesome. Like, well done for him. Um, oh, and we, well, we already talked about it. Louise being the one to finish off her because he, he didn't want to keep her that way. Amen.

[01:42:22] And thank God he didn't want him. Like, no matter what happened, she was not going to get to be Dillard's pet. And I respected the shit out of that moment. And I, I thought like, yeah, dude, you, but damn, he has had to go through some stuff. Yeah. He's been through some shit. He really has. Um, uh, as you mentioned, that kind of does get us through it. Um, I will say the tits poster, it ended up just being boobies at the end of the day. There was nothing special about it.

[01:42:50] This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans.

[01:43:21] Real value shows up in reliability. You don't have to second guess like a set of Firestone all season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence, inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride. No matter the road season after season. Firestone all season tires for durability. You can count on just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900.

[01:43:50] And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Jostling loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The certified fresh series returns. Your boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act? Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! Has it happened? There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh.

[01:44:20] So, a lot of things that, you know, I had theorized throughout the season. Dillard, 100%, yes, was a cop. I was wrong. Did not know seemingly Titty Cocker and Cockenspiel intimately before they were Zed. So, always fun. Always fun with a show that you can theorize. Again, we were talking about lanterns like three hours ago. And that show is just chock full of Theory Corner.

[01:44:45] So, I really enjoyed that this show gave us good things to postulate and ponder and think about. But that takes us into one week later. Actually, well, yes. It takes, I'll say it takes us into the epilogue because we get one scene that happens first and then there's the one week later. Maggie putting away Glenn's ring. Yeah. Happens before the one week later. Okay. All right. Cool.

[01:45:12] And again, with Negan not killing Dillard, though he had every reason to be wanting to, and with Maggie putting away Glenn's ring, it kind of shows that in a weird way, after enough exposure with each other, Maggie and Negan were both able to get past what they couldn't have gotten past without each other.

[01:45:37] Which is what the sideways universe showed us, that without them being, like for a moment, they both were on the right path. But then the moment that they separated, they both went back to who they were. This showed that they were able to progress and grow.

[01:45:51] Well, and kind of a more interesting fact about that, too, is that with more so with Maggie than Negan, it took the two people involved in the thing that was causing them both the most that was causing her the most innermost conflict.

[01:46:10] Negan is the reason why she had a lot of that inner conflict because of what he did to Glenn and how that led to everything past that and her feeling like she couldn't have been a good leader and because of having the balance being a mother because she didn't have Glenn. He's the reason she doesn't have Glenn. Like all of this, it took that person who she felt that contempt for to help her be the one to help her get past that contempt.

[01:46:37] Yeah, it's it's meta shit, but it's fantastic. And again, it's 15 years in the making, 11 years. I don't know, but it's really good storytelling. This was a great season of television. Yeah, it really was. But then, you know, when we move into that one week later epilogue, we see that Luis is already back in the hospital. He's training some new people. Herschel has very lovingly put up a mural of Renata on one of the walls in the hospital.

[01:47:07] And it's become a tattooer. He's tattooing himself. Dude thinks he's a badass now because he killed someone with a knife. Like he's tattooing his own artwork. Ben, he is a badass. He is tattooing his own art. Like you never get high on your own supply. And there he is like tattooing his left arm with a sick ass New York skyline. I was like, all right, get it, son. This is going to be dope. Also, Negan has friends. Loved it.

[01:47:34] He was having like a little, an old, a classic land party, man. He got some balls energy drink and some Dorito 3Ds. And like he had the folks over. He was playing some games. It was dope. I loved seeing it. But I mean, it was great to see that he finally. Joined the community. He joined the community. He didn't feel like an outsider anymore. Actually. Well, interestingly enough, is it that he didn't feel like an outsider or he finally believed in the leadership?

[01:48:03] Because he never believed in Renata's leadership. But now Maggie's obviously the leader. So of course he's coming in. Here's my thoughts on that. He didn't technically know that Maggie was the new leader yet at that point. It wasn't until the bar scene at the very end that she says that I'm in charge now. So I think it's more Negan found someone who accepted him in Dillard and never really believed anybody else would accept him because of his past.

[01:48:33] But he realizes that's not true. And not only has he accepted the fact of moving in with the community, the community has accepted him. That's so true. They are sitting there playing video games with him. Did you notice the guy he was playing against was the guy from the season premiere that the Dama brainwashed? I love that. I thought that was really sweet. That was nice. Yeah, it was the guy that he let go in the season premiere. Yes. Sheriff Negan.

[01:49:03] Fantastic. Actually, before we get to Sheriff Negan, always funny to see Maggie unfurl maps and look at them with hope in her eyes. She does it at least once every seven years. It's delightful. Well, and as somebody who's familiar with New York and its surrounding areas, I did pick up on the fact that she was not just looking at Manhattan. By the bang, she knows the expansion is what's next. She was looking at all of New York City. And I'm circling a note right here.

[01:49:31] The people at home are not going to be able to see this. And I don't know if you were going to be able to see it either. But it says right at the bottom. Sheriff. Sheriff. Sheriff Negan. That's my third to last bullet point myself. That's fantastic. Sheriff Negan, which, yeah, of course. Duh. That's the most. It's like it's like a once upon a time when Emma finally becomes the sheriff of Storybrooke. And you're like, obviously, yes, this is the most logical, logical answer.

[01:50:00] And then you bring in Captain Hook. But that's a horse of a different color. Love. Jesus Christ. Dude, when Maggie and I had a feeling it was coming when she pulls out the badge and slides it down the bar. Dude, audibly, audibly watching it after we recorded last week. I was like, I audibly was like, fuck. Yes. That was my exact. Mine was fuck. Yeah. You know, a little bit of a fuck. Yeah. Like, yeah. But that was exactly.

[01:50:30] I was like, yes, let's go. Let's fix New York. This is it. And I don't know. We're going to marinate it and we're going to address it more next week. But like whether it's a season or a series finale, it works. It fits. It works as a series finale if we don't get more. Yes. But they have planted the seeds. Absolutely. Four more. Yes.

[01:50:56] And here and here is my this is the only prediction I'm going to make right now because it's fresh in my head and anything else I'll say for next week when we marinate on everything. If we do get a season four, my prediction is that we're going to get a time jump. We're we're going to fast forward probably about a year. That's fascinating. So, all right.

[01:51:23] We are probably not the guys for me to ask this question. But if that's the case, where does this land in conjunction with Daryl and in conjunction with ones who live like where we already know? We already know because we looked at the timeline earlier. We're ahead of them all. OK, so it's already ahead of that. So it's already ahead. So a time jump could easily bring everybody back together and allow Daryl to find its way to close up on its own naturally to kind of see back in the fray if we want.

[01:51:50] And see, and that is also one of the things I was thinking about, too, is that this opens up the possibility that you could cause some conflict. Yeah. Of having someone of having someone like Ezekiel or Aaron or Rick or Michonne, somebody come in and see who Maggie has put in charge of the law and be like, why would you do that? Or even again, Daryl and Carol are going to have to come back to America somehow.

[01:52:20] And isn't New York just the perfect place to land from Europe? So, yeah, I that's a natural coalescing point. And Rick was in Philly as a part of the federated whatever. So I don't know. It'll be fun to see. But we're going to get into more of that next week. Like, dude, Mag, dude, Negan and Norman, Daryl and Negan riding Harleys through the streets of New York City. That would be fucking amazing.

[01:52:50] That'd be pretty legit. That'd be pretty legit. Because we know they ride Harleys together in real life. So I would just I would really like to see everyone that's still alive from proper back together with this, like these years of growth behind all of us and all of that and just find a big bad that they could all come together. Avengers style. I don't know. That would be amazing. And and I'm crossing my fingers.

[01:53:14] Any last thoughts on the only the only thing I have? And it's the last note is that and I'll just read it verbatim, please. Maggie and Negan have found themselves. Yes. Love that. Yes. Yes. That is my final thought of how this season ends. I agree. I it is beautiful.

[01:53:43] If it comes back for more, they've nailed it. If it doesn't, I'm happy. Am I satisfied and satiated if we don't get more? Yes. I feel like we could wrap up this relationship with how they ended things. But with Maggie saying there are four other boroughs out there, we could build something bigger. And are you in? Because I've got something I need you to do.

[01:54:09] You can't plant that seed with me and not pay it off. What does she need him to do? I don't know. Or even to your point, you do a time jump and you bring Pearly's group back as the big bad, but everyone has to fight against them somehow. Blah, blah, blah. I don't know. There's there's a lot of possibilities and they're making good TV again. So let's just let's keep going. I would rather see new Babylon be allies than villains.

[01:54:38] Because I think Pearly's probably going to have an influence. So and we know they're good. So I I think if we see new Babylon again, they're going to be allies. And honestly, we have zero clue whatsoever who the bad guys of Daryl Dixon is. So maybe they are who could, you know, come over and or. Well, and that's one of the reasons why I'm thinking we might possibly see a time jump, because doing a time jump would establish that they are.

[01:55:04] They have done they've rebuilt they've they've done some building in Manhattan. They're ready to expand now into the boroughs, you know, into the other boroughs. They have a trade route. They have trade routes set up with new Babylon on the outside of the island. Like a time jump would establish so many things without having to spend time developing them. Yeah. Like they could just have them already developed and then go into the story of expanding into the boroughs. Oh, I hope we get that. I do.

[01:55:33] I really hope we get that opportunity. So do I. I really do. Like they planted some really good seeds in the end that could really pay off well if the writing is as good as it has been. So we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully we'll get the pickup soon, but I definitely I think we're going to get it. I think we're going to get it. I hope so. Like I teased at the beginning, I did ask chat Jippet and it was.

[01:56:03] It was the lowest premiere yet, but the critical reaction has been significantly better than the first two years. And like, I don't know it. What else does AMC have going on? Yeah, because a lot of the shows that they were doing before are over. Like there's nothing else they really have going, at least that I know of. Right. And like Daryl Dixon got an entire season's heads up that it was the final one. I feel like they would do the same with me. They would have done the same thing for Dead City. Yeah.

[01:56:31] I mean, and I feel like we got that with all of them, actually. Like we knew that the Michonne and Rick one was only going to be one season. They told us that ahead of time. We knew the last season of The Walking Dead was the last season of The Walking Dead. We knew the last season of Fear was the last season of Fear. And same thing with Daryl Dixon. I think you're absolutely right. I think if this was going to be the last season of Dead City, they would have said something.

[01:56:54] But I actually now remember when Walking Dead was ending, I remember that Jeffrey Dean Morgan was irritated that they had already mentioned the Negan and Maggie spinoff because it took away the allure of they couldn't they die. And I could see since he is an executive producer on this, him being able to throw the weight around of like, look, you can. I love. Thank you so much for renewing us. You cannot announce it until after the finale. People need to worry about Negan possibly dying.

[01:57:24] Well, no, I don't. I don't think that's the case at all. I think they could absolutely announce that it's the last season. They just can't spoil if like any of these characters are going to appear anywhere afterwards. True. That's a great call. That's a great call. Because announcing that it is the last season could really make you curious if he's going to survive. Because I'll be honest with you, I am most likely going to get caught up on Daryl Dixon before this final season and then watch this final season. Like it got through its sophomore slump.

[01:57:53] And then the third season was really solid and people are excited about four. So I will 100% check it out and get caught up and watch it in real time so that when podcast is covering it, I can follow along. But like, yeah, man, let's do this. Let's find a way to bring it all together. Yeah. And I will say on your note about the premiere being one of the lowest that there was, I do understand that because look at the first two seasons that were kind of the lead in to the premiere of this season.

[01:58:21] People weren't as excited because they weren't thrilled with the first two seasons. This season really turned it around. That's a good question. I wonder if retrospectively those numbers have increased week over week by word of mouth and people would be like, oh, actually, no, you should check this down. Like, all right, we'll go see. Because that's fascinating. I hope it gets renewed. I hope we get good news by the next episode. Or, yeah, or at some point within the next couple weeks if it's not by the next episode.

[01:58:50] Fingers crossed, baby. Fingers crossed. All right. That is our show, episode 717. Thank you, as always, for listening. And apologies for the many derailments this episode. I apologize for nothing. That's fair. You know what? I don't either. They were fantastic.

[01:59:18] Again, and I have to say, super excited I was here for episode 717. Again, that's my zip code. That's your zip code. That's so magical. That's cool. But next episode, it's going to be your feedback for this episode, Dead City Season 3 Episode 8, as well as any full season feedback, thoughts, considerations, et cetera, you may have, followed by our thoughts on the season and its future, which is pretty much what we just went over. Then comes Ben's part.

[01:59:44] But I also want to hear, too, when you leave the feedback, like full season feedback or whatever, I want your predictions for what you would like to see next season, too. Do you think it's going to be a time jump? Do you think it's going to be a write-off? Are you excited that Negan is the sheriff now? I want to hear all your thoughts. All of these things.

[02:00:05] But if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can do that easily by getting all of our contact information over at podcastica.com. Or you can go to the podcastica groups or the podcastica page on Facebook. And I do posts on both of those pages Monday after the show airs. So you can leave your thoughts in the comments on those posts as well. Yes. While you're there, though, make sure to check out our other podcasts as well as our own content.

[02:00:32] So definitely want to check out the Lanterns podcast, Casting Light with Jason, Jim and James T. Kirk. It is a really, really, really good look and analysis of the show. These dudes know the comic stuff, so they are able to give you background. I don't know much of the Green Lantern comics, so it's really nice to hear from Jason, Jim and Kirk about how some of the pieces or just some of the Easter eggs I'm not even able to catch. Just kind of what that is.

[02:01:01] But also make sure that you keep listening to the show after next week's episode when Ben and I get your feedback and season thoughts on this episode. Jason and Lucy will return with The Walking Dead rewatch, kicking off Season 7, Episode 2, which is the premiere of Ezekiel and the Kingdom. Who doesn't love that? Ben, you got to share a stage with Kari Payton last year. I did, and it was wonderful.

[02:01:26] And I will say, too, to anybody listening, this will be a little bit of a lead into promoting our own stuff. If you want to hear the conversation that I had on stage with Kari Payton, the audio is available through the Wilhelm podcast. And I highly recommend it because we had a blast. It was a ton of fun because Kari is just awesome. Walking Ray of Sunshine, that guy.

[02:01:56] He is so nice. He's such a nice guy. And he's cyborg, and that's awesome. And he's cyborg, which was great. There is a video floating around right now of, because Rob Paulson, not Rob Paulson. Oh, my God. I'm so forgetful. Darkwing Duck. Winnie the Pooh. I forget. So that guy. Yeah. Yeah. Forgive me. People are probably screaming his name.

[02:02:26] I've been on stage with him, and I can't remember his name. You're getting old, man. I am. I really am. He has a podcast with other voice actors, and he just had Kari on the podcast. Nice. And it was absolutely delightful. And if you can't tell, I am vamping so that I can look it up because it's going to Jim Cummings. I didn't even have to look it up. It just came to me.

[02:02:55] It's about time, I tell you. I didn't even get to finish the search. I was just, it suddenly came to me. Outstanding. Jim Cummings has a podcast, Talking Tunes, and he had Kari on, and it's such a delight. I love it. I love it. But in regards to, real quick about Lanterns. Oh, by the way, WilhelmPodcast.com is where you can find all my Wilhelm stuff. Sorry. Including the conversation with Kari Payton.

[02:03:24] And past conversations with Russ Marquand, if you want to check those out. There you go. Lanterns has been so good. And episode four, the latest episode, at least at the time you're listening to this, it was the latest episode. That, man. That episode kicked the story into full throttle high gear, man. It was so good. And it was also full frontal of Garrett Dillahunt. But more like... Almost full frontal. Dillahunter.

[02:03:54] They showed us everything but the dangling parts of the world. They showed us the artistic rendition of... Yes. They showed us the big dick with the big dick. Unlike Dillard, the big dick with the little dick. The big dick with the big dick. It was outstanding. So, no. Lanterns has been great. Again, I don't know much of the lore, but they're doing a great job of telling you the lore. And I think Aaron Pierre, I think he might be the most handsome man in the world. Pretty sure.

[02:04:21] Like, sculpted out of marble, pretty much in Adonis. And like, ah, just everything about his soft, his funny, his everything. I am falling in love with this guy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Kyle Chandler. Kyle Chandler's a given. But Aaron Pierre is the one that's really blowing me away. And I think he's supposed to be in Man of Tomorrow. Yes, he is. He is the... We'll see what happens with Guy Gardner.

[02:04:50] I cannot wait to see how he plays into all of this. Because I just watched Superman for the first time yesterday. So, now I... What did you think? I really enjoyed it. We'll talk in more detail later. You're right. We have derailed this enough. We'll talk after we hit stop. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. I'll make one more quick note, and then we'll... I promise we'll wrap things up. Talking about Bill Lawrence, when you mentioned Scrubs, and you and I talked a lot about this

[02:05:18] most recent episode of Ted Lasso, I started and am already through the first season of Shrinking. Absolutely, you are. And it is amazing. So good, isn't it? It is so good. I love every character, especially Darren. 100%. Yes. Ted McGinley is... Dude... By far my... Eat a dick, Karen. Oh. Dude... Eat...

[02:05:48] It's Deb. They were calling her Karen because she was a Karen, but I think the character's name was like Deb or something like that. Whatever it was. Oh my God. That is such a good delivery. That scene, man. I was rolling. Yes. You can't say hi to Deb. We hate Deb. Oh, okay. Pam. It was Pam. Eat a dick, Pam. It's Pam. Eat a dick, Pam. Yes. Oh, okay. Eat a dick, Pam. And then drives off. Dude, I was... Lord. It was the best. It was the best.

[02:06:16] His one-liners, man, are so good. On Ben's point, go check out Shrinking. I... Go check out Shrinking if you haven't watched it. It's so damn good. It's a perfect rewatchable. Any... Anything else? No. If you're bored and you're thinking, hey, Philadelphia Phillies, maybe I care about them, check out the Quit Chasing Podcast. We are a little cheeky, a little irreverent, and always unqualified. We digest 162 so you don't have to, even when they piss me off and make me throw my phone across the room. We bring it fun.

[02:06:45] We have a good time. This most recent episode, we asked Love It, Hate It, Smashburgers. Um, how can you not? Love it. They are the dumbest, dumbest thing ever. They are nothing but a flat, thin-ass patty, man. Give me some thickness. Give me some juice. I hate Smashburgers. I am waging war against the Smashburger trend. All right, so I would just like to put this out there that I am now in contention for

[02:07:14] a new host for season four of Destiny. I mean, if the Beatles part didn't steal you, the Smashburger was always going to. Yeah, that's fair enough. The only thing worse would have been you saying you actually like gin, and then I would have been absolutely looking for a new host. Don't worry. Still Scotch, man. I promise. Eh. Um, all right. Then, that's our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Tracy Kittinger Shepard. Ramsay