721: TWD S7E3 "The Cell" Rewatch

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcastica Drogue Look around here. This, it can all be yours. All you gotta do is answer one simple question. Who are you?

[00:00:34] What's the cat got your tongue? You just overwhelmed by the awesomeness of this? I'll ask you one more time.

[00:01:35] Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Negan. And I'm Negan. Sorry, I'm, I'm that, no I'm Lucy. I'm Lucy, I think. You're supposed to say I'm Jason. No, I'm just kidding. And this is The Walking Dead Cast Episode 721. Yeah. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead Season 7 Episode 3 The Cell. Yes!

[00:01:59] And we'll be playing this song throughout the episode in honor of, no I'm just kidding. Copyright. We're on easy street. It feels so sweet.

[00:02:13] You know what? I think that's a great song and my guess is that, because a lot of most, any Walking Dead fan will be like, oh no, it's the torture song. And I feel sorry for, I think they're called the Collapsible Hearts Club that came up with that song and didn't know it was even going to be in this episode. Because I feel like it's about the context. Like if people had heard it in another context, they'd be, oh that's a cute song, you know? Yeah. Also, they'll have made money from it. I'm like, it'll be fine. People will have bought it ironically. Definitely.

[00:02:42] There's just still an iTunes era. They're grand. You know, back then they actually contacted me and were like, can we come on the podcast? And I was just like overwhelmed with Walker Sucker Plus. We were interviewing cast members and I didn't do it, but I wish I had now. Yeah. Aww. Anyway, shall we, do you want to, would you like to read the plot summary, Randy? Yes, I would. Welcome back by the way. Yeah, Randy. I'm so glad to have you on. Yeah, it's so good to be on.

[00:03:11] I don't know if I've talked real Walking Dead on this podcast, so this will be awesome. Oh, no way. Cool. Yeah. Nice. Daryl is locked in a cell at the sanctuary where Negan and Dwight constantly torture him in an effort to break him down to obedience. Negan sends Dwight on a mission to retrieve an escaped savior who says he would rather die than return to the sanctuary.

[00:03:33] Dwight, therefore, ultimately mercy kills the man. Daryl is given the opportunity to become a savior, but adamantly refuses. Dun, dun, dun.

[00:03:46] So, you, you know what? I really wish I would have given you a better introduction because Randy has been a listener for a long time and contributed some awesome stuff to the podcast, including, uh, you did that song, uh, from rent. Yep. With zombies. That was so classic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love that. And then, uh, we got a few calls from your friend, Margaret, who you've encouraged to listen to the podcast. So that was nice.

[00:04:15] Um, Randy also does welcome to the apocalypse, which is our, uh, well, it's Randy's really zombie improv apocalyptic improv show. I highly recommend people check that out. Randy also co-hosts, uh, welcome to the white Lotus with me and my wife, Jenny, which is one of our most popular podcasts right now. And the alien earth part of wax episodic with me and Karen, Randy. And yeah. Yeah. It's quite a, uh, resume actually.

[00:04:48] So why, why did you, I know you wanted to be on this one because you love the song easy street, right? Exactly. Yeah. I wanted to come in, hop in on one of these episodes where they're kind of downers with the hope of lightening it up by sprinkling in some fun and some jokes. Uh, so I do have some jokes prepared if, um, it gets too heavy.

[00:05:12] Um, but yeah, the cell is just like a laugh a minute episode and it just felt appropriate to hop in on. Yeah. I mean, every time I saw Daryl twitching, I just couldn't help but laugh. Oh yeah. It's hilarious. I feel quite guilty. Cause I did actually laugh at the first scene with easy street and his like sad little face. Cause I was just like, this, this gets the position. Lucy, we're just kidding. We're, it's horrible. Well, actually another thing to add to this.

[00:05:40] I went through a, a method acting version for this podcast. I don't know if that sentence makes sense. Uh, when I initially said, yeah, do this episode. I didn't realize dead city was coming out. So I watched the episode and then you said, Hey, we're taking a little break. Uh, while dead city is on. So I made that decision, uh, the decision at that point that I was going to watch this episode as many times as I could until we record.

[00:06:10] So then I could feel what Daryl felt. Amazing. Dead city did some of that time lot. So I have only watched the episode eight and a half times since then. Randy, come on, be professional. I know I tried. I really wanted like twice a week at least, but I make a nine. I was watching it in my sleep and I'm so yeah. How was it to rewatch it? Eight and a half times, man.

[00:06:37] There's so many deeper messages in there that you just don't see until like the seventh watch, man. Uh, surprisingly, I thought it was going to be like more grading and like at some point I'd be like, all right, I'm torturing myself. But it actually was pretty entertaining each time. You actually did watch it eight and a half times. Yeah. Granted, a couple of the times are like when I'm on a treadmill or something like that. But so I'm doing some other activities, but yeah, yeah, I watched it a bunch of times.

[00:07:07] So I'm ready to talk about it. I thought it was a really good episode. It was, it's so unsettling and oppressive and you don't want a lot of that. Like I guess Randy does, but I was thinking, you know, like, yeah, this is, this is a great episode of TV. Angela King wrote it, but the problem with season seven and eight is that we get this kind of note hit over and over again.

[00:07:34] It just gets so, it's just too much after a while, but we're just at the beginning now. And I just think it's a great episode. What about you, Lucy? Yeah, I enjoyed it. I think it's, it's a Dwight character study rather than a Daryl episode. Yeah, for them. I agree for the most part. Yeah. I think it's how I'm viewing it.

[00:07:51] I think there's a lot more in it about Dwight and what Daryl means to Dwight that I think is quite interesting, especially given that for comic book readers, there was a huge thing of like, is Daryl going to be a sub for Dwight? Like there were a couple of kind of Easter eggs between sort of comic lore and TV lore. So I think it was quite cool that they played with that. Actually, that's not what happened. It was, it was, Daryl was first.

[00:08:20] And then when they introduced Dwight, we thought that was going to be Daryl in the comics. They thought that one was the other and they just didn't have the, so yeah, I thought that's actually quite an interesting thing to do. And I have to say, I don't know, maybe this is mean to say, Jeffrey D. Morgan looks a lot younger. Like I know it was 10 years ago. Yeah. Oh, I know. He's 60 now. But it was weird. Yeah. It was weird coming off of Dead City because he's really gotten quite skinny. Now that he's older than this one, he's super healthy. Like I'm not saying he's fat. He's not fat, Joey.

[00:08:50] He's still skinny in this. He's still skinny in this, but he looks- But he's even skinnier now. Like, Fuller. Yeah. Like I don't know, it's weird. He looks more like Comic Book Negan, which I like, so. I assumed that he was dying his hair during this part of the seasons. Yeah. Because I don't feel like his hair was really that jet black. No. I was thinking the same thing. I was like, no, I don't think that's your natural hair color. I don't think your natural hair color, but I think you're dying out. I mean, yeah.

[00:09:18] Jeffrey Dean Morgan is a perfect example of a man who's aging well though, right? Like how he's super handsome. You know? It just, I don't usually feel the age of these episodes because The Walking Dead is kind of out of time. So it's not like, oh, they're using old iPhones. Oh my God, the show is so old. Right. It's more, it's just occasionally I'll see things like, Andrew Lincoln has aged heaps. Yeah. Like I remember when you look at like season nine Rick versus like young, almost like, not adolescent, but like- Baby faced.

[00:09:48] Early thirties Andrew Lincoln. Yeah. But it just, I think having just come straight out of Dead City, I was like, holy crap, the CDN looks quite different. Yeah. Yeah. But on the same hand, Lauren Cohen looks almost exactly the same. Emily Kidding as well. I'm like, hang on, what? What's, why do the women of The Walking Dead seem to just like- It's these motorcycle riders. Yeah. All that wind is aging them. All right. Shall we get into our points, Randy? Yeah. Let's go first.

[00:10:18] So this episode, I really like within the context of the season, but I think it might be mis- sorry. I like this as a standalone episode, but within the context of the season, I feel like it's misplaced. Mm-hmm. So coming in with a critique here, I feel like we learned too much about Negan and the Saviors right off the bat. And I think that makes us really feel like he's there the whole season.

[00:10:45] I think if we had started with going back to Alexandria at this point, and you have that fear of Negan out there, you don't know what he's doing or when he's gonna strike. Almost like the way Jaws works, you know he's out there. You don't want to demystify it so quickly, kind of. Exactly. Yeah. And I think if we had seen kind of Daryl showing up with Negan and looking like just a complete mess- That's so interesting.

[00:11:15] And then you would be like, what happened to Daryl? And then you would come back. I think that might have helped us like- Yeah. It was supposed to be second. Oh, wow. They filmed it with the intention of it being second and then they switched them around. That was a good choice. I thought that was a good choice too. We needed a little break. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we don't- I do think it's interesting to see that Randy, because I think I agree. And there are some weirder- Me too. Like, we don't see Maggie till episode five. Yeah.

[00:11:44] Like, when you think about how the show aired week to week, that's actually- Yeah, there are these huge gaps and we do foreground a lot of the Negan stuff. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it just makes Negan feel more like the main- Yeah. And they just shove him down our throats, you know? Right. It's like, maybe we were meant to feel that.

[00:12:14] Yeah. I don't know. I don't think it was good for the show. This aired- Well, it was so weird. It was polarizing because there's- He has such big fans, but the viewership was just dropping off. Do you know the date this episode aired originally? It was the 7th of November, 2016. Oh, wow. Yes, that was quite interesting. 10 years ago? 10 years ago, right after election results came in. Or right before- Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was sort of a reason why Karen just started falling out of love with the show. Yep.

[00:12:45] Because she doesn't like a certain someone that you know who we're talking about. It's me. And this just- Yeah. She could send Lucy coming closer. Yeah, yeah. Someone in who loves him to replace Karen. Yeah. I think, yeah, to build- To yes and Randy's point, perhaps we reveal too much ding-dong. Like, we see a lot of the saviors. Yeah. And you know, I've been saying these guys are fucking ding-dongs.

[00:13:12] And I hate to say it, I hate to hate on Fat Joey, but he's a fucking ding-dong. He is. He is very much a ding-dong. There is so much about it where I'm like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I- somebody recently said to me is that when people don't have power, and then they are giving- given a little bit of power no matter what it is, and they can flex it, they generally take advantage of that. Yeah. And I think Fat Joey is a good example of that.

[00:13:41] He, like, kind of takes pleasure in being able to point his gun at Daryl and have control over this guy who's there. And it's very brief, but you can kind of see the allure that Negan has for guys like that. Well, Dwight too, with the sandwich, you know? Yeah. Yep. Going around. I feel like Dwight's might be a little more complicated. And if you'll give me this, I'll go slightly into my next point, and then we can bounce off of this.

[00:14:07] I think this is an episode that's a character study of three characters, and it's one who's given up, one who's given in, and one who's giving nothing. And that is, Gordon, the guy that Dwight goes after, he's given up, Dwight has given in, and Daryl is giving nothing. Yeah. And they keep repeating this theme throughout the episode, or maybe they keep mentioning different ways of saying it.

[00:14:33] So Dwight says to Daryl, you can be like them, or me, or them. And I think he's referring to the guys putting people out on the fence and then the zombies. Uh, Negan says you can wind up on a spike and you work for me as a dead man, or you work for points but you'll wish you're dead, or you work for me and you get a brand new pair of shoes and you live like a king. Uh, and each one of them I think is an example of doing that.

[00:15:02] So Gordon, obviously, he gives up, and he ends up on a spike working as a dead man. Daryl, I think in theory works for points later on. And then, um, Dwight has decided he's gonna work for him and get a brand new pair of shoes and live like a king. Um, but I would say none of them actually live like kings. No.

[00:15:25] The episode's called The Cell, and the clear reference is Daryl's cell, but I think it's also about everyone being in a prison no matter what choice they make, you know? Yeah. Yep. Oh, Randy, that's blowing my mind. That's really cool. Where do you think Sherry is on the scale? Just out of interest, because I think her and Dwight are in an interesting position here. I think they've both probably given in. And they hate it. I think they're the same. Yeah. Yeah. Just on different tiers. Yeah.

[00:15:55] I mean, the way it sounds is they both chose to come back because they thought that they would die on their own and they decided it was better to submit to Negan than that. If I was to put pressure on any bit of the story at this point being not something that stands up when you put pressure on it, it's their decision to come back. Yeah.

[00:16:20] The only reason I would think of for the trio we met to go back would be because Tina needed the medicine, but Tina was dead before they decided to go back. So I'm just a bit like, wouldn't you just run off? Like, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I can think of is they just, maybe they didn't have a lot of experience with the world and know that, oh, there are other groups out there. Yeah. And so they just thought we're either going to be on our own and probably die or go back to what we know is a secure place. Yeah.

[00:16:50] But you're right though. I feel the same way. Like, really? Yeah. But even within the like couple hours that they were escaping, one of them died. They lost Tina. Evidence. So yeah, they may have just been like, you know what, maybe it is harder out here than we realize. Yeah. And the whole world's dead. So, you know, pretty much. Well, that sort of leads into my next point. Do you mind if I go first? Yes. You see, it's just about Negan's system.

[00:17:14] Cause this is the episode where we really first got to see the workings of the, of the saviors and, and Negan's organization and everything. And so those three choices that you mentioned, you're either a Zed on a spike in their like moat zombie moat around the sanctuary. You work for points, which I guess that's like a civilian laborer that does jobs and earn points in it.

[00:17:36] You get the feeling, you know, I mean that you have to work really hard for little pay and use those points for meager food and whatever. Plus you're, you have the lowest authority and power. Yeah. That's what Negan says. You'll wish you were dead. Uh, or you can, he says, work for me and live like a king. That means you're a savior. Yeah. I guess a mercenary. You help enforce his rule. And then you get better perks, maybe your own room, better food. You get authority over people. Like we saw Dwight going around.

[00:18:06] I think he was, when he was bullying everyone to get bits for a sandwich. Those were Negan people, right? Not outside groups. Those were the point. Yeah. Yeah. Low people on the totem pole. Yeah. And then Negan says, uh, there's no door number four that those are the only three choices, but he's wrong. The door number four is the door to his jail cell in Alexandria. Yeah. We'll find that out eventually. But these people don't know that.

[00:18:36] Um, and so then let's see, uh, uh, yeah. Dwight going around through people's stuff and taking from them is I think just common in organizations headed by someone who's corrupt for the shit to roll downhill to the people with power below him to mimic him to the ones that they have power over. Um, Negan's taking half of outsider stuff. Dwight's taking sandwich ingredients, but, and then the opening showed who's the boss, which is an old eighties sitcom.

[00:19:05] Um, and I, that's apropos cause it's Negan constantly showing everyone he's boss and it'll work out best if they do what he wants. And I just another important part for me about all this is I think this system is the natural result of a malignant narcissist being in charge. So what does that mean? He's a narcissist. He's controlling. He sees everyone as an extension of himself, not as their own person. That's why they all have to say I'm Negan and only what he wants matters.

[00:19:34] And you're either on board or you're going to be tortured or killed. And so in a system like that, you lose your own identity and your autonomy. It's all about what the leader wants, you know, and you sort of take on that perspective, uh, or, or else you suffer. He doesn't have empathy for people's own suffering. He objectifies them. He only evaluates people by whether they're useful to him. And, uh, as he says, people are a resource.

[00:20:02] He, he need narcissists need acknowledgement and validation in Negan's case of his superiority. So I think that's why he has created this organization rather than people say, oh, he's good. He's not so bad because he doesn't kill people. He doesn't kill people because he needs people to subjugate. Tell him he's great and yeah, make him feel good. Reinforce his power. Um, and then everything he does is to reinforce that you either supplicate or you suffer.

[00:20:30] He, he reinforces submission and supplication with rewards and defiance with torture and humiliation. But what's really interesting to me is he even humiliates his loyal loyalists. Like, especially Dwight. We saw him just totally, I have, I cringe at those moments, you know, just to reinforce that. Look, I ironed this guy's face. I took his wife and yet he's still cool with it. And he's my top guy. Like, fuck you. Yeah.

[00:20:59] It's a shitty thing to do. And I'm not sticking up for, I want to make that abundantly clear, but Dwight's a total fuck. No, I'm joking. I, my reading of that, cause I was really interested in that Jason when I was watching it. I was like, yeah, he is still being shit to someone who's loyal to him. Part of me thinks that he still doesn't fully trust Dwight and he's putting this excessive pressure on him to really make sure that Dwight is okay. Yeah. And it has been broken. That's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make it okay.

[00:21:27] But I think the reason we see, it's not like he's like really lovely to fat Joey and like, he's only horrible to Dwight. Um, but it is interesting that thing where I'm like, cause to me, I'm like, would you really like, would you really believe that this guy whose wife you're fucking and whose face you've ironed is ever actually going to be faithful to you? Sure. Well, that's part of being a narcissist is when you find a new person, you love bomb them. And like, he's in a weird way. Negan's doing this to Daryl. He's like, Oh, you're impressive.

[00:21:57] I mean, he's got him in a cell. So not really. But anyway, over time, narcissists start to devalue the people around them. Like just, just treat them poorly. Uh, little backhanded statements and stuff like that. But I think, um, well, I don't know if this is exactly related, but it's similar to what you're just saying, Lucy.

[00:22:18] Like, yeah, you don't necessarily trust that the person would actually love you because I think a narcissist knows on some level, I'm a horrible person. I'm horrible to them. So you have to sort of reinforce your control by saying, all right, I'm going to test that. I'm going to repeatedly test it, you know, over and over doing. And then it was interesting to me in an alt, in the alternate reality episode of dead city where Negan and Megan are, uh, Negan and Maggie are in New York city kind of flirting around all day.

[00:22:46] And then later Beth asks Maggie, Oh, are you interested in that guy? And she says, no, I think he's just kind of a narcissist. I was like, Oh, they have some self-awareness there. Like, right. They know it. I do think as well, Negan at the later stages that we see him at, I don't know that Negan ever. Negan sees himself as a good person.

[00:23:07] I think he thinks some of the things he did are justifiable, but I think the narcissist argument you're waking does hold water because I think he does have capacity to hate himself in that way and know that people wouldn't truly like it. And I think that's maybe why he likes kids because they are less judgmental in a way. Like they're honest too. They're honest. Right. He's complicated. You're a dick. Right. It's complicated.

[00:23:36] He's got this vibe. Like, I know I'm a piece of shit, but please love me anyway. That's the way I think it is. You know, let me charm you. Yeah. And there are people like that who, I think the joking around with Dwight, I think in his mind, there might be a bit of him that's like, oh no, this is like our fun banter. Yeah. Like doesn't, because of the power imbalance, nobody's saying like, stop that. So he's like, oh, this is cool. Like he's self perpetuating this situation for himself.

[00:24:05] And you can imagine maybe Leonardo DiCaprio treats his people around him like that. I don't know if he does, but you know, something like that. Toby McGuire. Yeah. Exactly. Specifically Leo. We're calling him out in this podcast. Because people stop checking you, you know? Yeah. All right. Lucy, what do you want to talk about? I think my point kind of follows on quite nicely. I just want to talk about the opening to this episode because I inadvertently watched it a few times because I kind of had a couple of first starts with starting it.

[00:24:33] I think this is the best cold open we ever have in The Walking Dead. It's very good. Because I think it's a really good storytelling piece. The bad thing is it makes you want to stop the episode and go make yourself a sandwich. But other than that, I tried to make one today, but I didn't have pickles. So I was like, ah! You should have went and beat up your neighbor. Yeah. It's really like, so I thought I would go with what do we learn from the cold open?

[00:25:01] And in some ways, we learn the first thing we see, which is who's the boss. We learn that Negan is the boss. But I think we learn a lot about Dwight. So we learn that the life he has in the sanctuary, he's able to have kind of leisure time. We see him play air hockey with, is her name Laura? Yes. First appearance of Laura, who is a sadistic savior who later gets on the council at Alexandria. Yes. And is offed by a whisperer. I think Beta gets her. I believe Beta gets her. Yeah.

[00:25:31] So he's able to have downtime. So that's something in the zombie apocalypse. That tells you something about the state he's in. Yeah. His status. We learn that he is still skilled at carving these little figures. And that's a big part of his, his character in the comics. Mm-hmm. He gets to skip the queue. So he's high status. He's a savior. As we learned later in the episode, he gets to the front of the bread queue. People defer to him. They don't kneel, but they defer to him. We learned that he won't intervene in shit that doesn't concern him.

[00:25:59] So we see him watch a lower status guy try and literally give the shirt off his back to get some supplies. Mm-hmm. And get, I think, beaten to death. Because he then goes and... Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he gets beaten to death. I think that's Gordon. The guy that he follows later. Oh. 39. I think. I would have to look... Yes. And I think he's... My impression of that scene is he's not taking his shirt off to get something. He's literally going like, what, do you want the shirt off my back?

[00:26:28] Like, I think he's finally fed up and he's doing that. Got you. And then he gets beat up for it. And that's kind of the... Interesting. When he decides he's gonna leave. I think. That's my interpretation. I like that. Yeah. Because he then goes to whoever 39 is. He goes to their trunk. And for some reason they're holding some really good mustard and some really good pickles. We learned that there are women and children in the sanctuary, or at least teenagers, because there's two people looking on as he does that. We learned that Dwight, I'm just gonna say it, he can make a really good sandwich.

[00:26:58] Both of those sandwiches looked really delicious. Yeah. Tomatoes become really symbolic in The Walking Dead at this era. Like, I think Rick talks about everyone sitting outside eating tomatoes and, sorry, tomatoes in Alexandria. You say tomato, we say tomato. I say tomato. Yes. So we see our first symbolic tomato. We see everyone kneeling for Negan as he walks past. We learn that the sanctuary is pretty well set up with livestock.

[00:27:25] So there are chickens providing eggs, which Dwight uses to put in another amazing looking sandwich. But then all of this has been set to the really upbeat town called Malice by The Jam, which is an absolute bop. But it suddenly breaks and we hear the roar of walkers. We see Dwight sitting to eat his beautiful sandwich. But just across the barricade is this prisoner class of resident at the sanctuary at work.

[00:27:51] And we see him watching them with this kind of really conflicted look on his face or quite a pain look. And then we see him make a dog food sandwich for Daryl. We see Daryl has become this kind of naked prisoner who doesn't mind a dog food sandwich and will eat it. Which is an interesting character choice. I mean, we've seen what he eats. Yeah, I know. I was like, I also like, I just want to make one, two nitpicky points on this point. What the fuck are those prisoners supposed to be doing?

[00:28:18] Because I was watching them and they're literally just shuffling between walkers that are already tied up, looking a bit stressed, but not really doing anything. And I'm like, I'm a bit unclear about what the actual job they're supposed to be doing. I think it's like, he's like, we're a little thin out there in the moat. Can you guys go walk around and scare off anybody? Literally. He's just like, maybe Dwight's not looking really inside himself. He's just looking at them thinking, what the fuck? Why are we doing that? Yeah.

[00:28:48] And the other thing I will say is according to the timeline, and again, take this with a pinch of salt, but I think it is backed up with when they then go to Alexandria. This whole episode takes place over the space of two days. I would say Daryl gets fed quite a lot for a prisoner if this is just two days. That's right. He's like, I couldn't have another one. I mean, he did throw the last one out. Yeah, until last one, he's like, I'm stuffed guys. I couldn't possibly. I was just a bit like, you're feeding him quite well. Like you could just starve him.

[00:29:16] I was counting each of the days that the door opened and I assumed it was one per each. So in my mind, it was four days of being in there without clothes. And then on the fifth day visits the doctor. The fifth day. But if that doesn't quite fit, then yeah. I think so. I've got the timeline thinks it's May 4th, 5th and 6th, and then they go to Alexandria. But I think it works better if we imagine this is taking place over a longer period. Yeah.

[00:29:44] Otherwise, he just has a mildly, well, no, he gets tortured, but like, over a short period of time. Yeah. Yeah. He gets fed quite well. Like, yeah, I think on the third day he would still be like, hey, I wanted to call him Andrew. Hey, Rick, when he shows up, like, I don't think he'd be that beaten down. I mean, they did a good job showing him curled up naked and dirty in that cell twitching

[00:30:12] of really imparting like, oh, he's in a bad place. Yeah. Yeah. There's one scene where after Dwight has given him the photo of Glenn's body, when we next see him, when he opens, when Dwight opens the door, he looks like Glenn's body. He's like laid out in the same way. He's got the sandwich beside him and the Polaroid and it's like, ah, shit, like, he's really not in a good way at that point. Was there vomit on the floor? Yeah. Oh, did he? Yeah. Buddy.

[00:30:43] Yuck. Yeah. He's having a rough day. Oh, Daryl. He ate too many sandwiches. Yeah. Oh, poor guy. He's like, I had six of those damn things. He really overdid it. Yeah. Like, please stop feeding me. Please. Yeah. I didn't want to be impolite, but... This is the part Joey's like, this is how they get you, man. When I came in, I was skinny Joey. I was skinny Joey. I was skinny Joey.

[00:31:12] Oh, fuck Joey. Oh. All right. Amazing. Well, one thing I wanted to point out during that is we never see him go to the bathroom. Yep. So I'm curious if that's in there somewhere with him, or if you only eating one sandwich a day, you just don't end up needing to. Yeah. We don't see the whole cell, like the part closest to us is where all the poop is. Yeah.

[00:31:38] There's actually like a bathroom and a shower and like a living room over and they're like, why do you keep staying in the entryway? Yeah. Yeah, I guess Dwight is very interesting this episode because it does really feel like it's about him. I've heard this quote before. If you're going to be bad, you better be good at it. Yeah.

[00:32:02] And I think that applies to Dwight in this situation where he has made the decision, I'm going to live in this environment. I'm going to live with these people. So he's going to go all out on being that type of person. Kind of the way they try to make it seem like Negan was doing. I think Dwight's the actual example of somebody who's like, I have to be a monster to survive this. Yeah. And the first chance he gets to not be a monster, he does end up taking that.

[00:32:31] But yeah, he's got the facade of freedom. What do you mean by shooting the guy? No, I mean later on when he's got the chance to like, yeah, no longer be a part of the saviors. He goes with that. Negan, I don't think would have ever taken that type of choice. But yeah, the looking at that Walker on the fence, he sort of stares at him for a while. And I think he's realizing like, oh, I'm sort of doing the same thing. I'm just a part of Negan's like moat basically.

[00:32:59] And he spends his, the Walker just keeps getting up and down. Like it's just sort of repeating the day. And we kind of get like the next day after Dwight has Dwight's best day where he starts out with a sandwich and then it comes to the next day and he's just like beaten up. Uh, he's run into his wife and had to really face the reality of what's going on with her and that relationship. And he's had to kill somebody. Um, and not for a good reason.

[00:33:28] I think the only reason he kills Gordon is so that he can bring him back and say, I killed him. Cause I think if he just said he got away, he would be in trouble. So his only option for letting him go. Yeah. Was to kill him. See Gordon wants him to kill him. Mm hmm. And he only, and he says, I'm going to, um, kill your family if you don't come back with me or your friends or something. Yeah. And then Gordon says, okay, you win.

[00:33:58] And then Dwight does kill him anyway. And I thought that could be for two reasons. Cause I think this whole episode is Dwight sort of, he's been broken. He's decided this is a better life than anything else I could have. But then he's having, uh, having doubts, you know, and Gordon is a representation. Oh, maybe I made the wrong choice cause he made another choice. And so I think Dwight either resents that and kills him just because he's resenting it or, and maybe it's a little bit of both. He's just like, okay, I'm going to grant your wish.

[00:34:28] So he's actually showing him some mercy. Yep. You know, I could be either. I don't know. Yeah. I think he is granting his wish. And I think like the ultimate wish would have been to just let him go. But I think that's true. That's true. Then he'd get in trouble. Yeah. He'd be in trouble. So he does shoot him in the heart too, so that he can bring him back and he ultimately becomes part of the fence. Like they describe in the beginning, your three choices. Yep. Door number three. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:57] I love how OTT he goes with him though. He's like, yeah, yeah. I'm going to dig up your dead wife. And I'm like, Jesus Christ Dwight. Yeah. I'm like, no you're not. Like, and Gordon's just like, okay Dwight. Yep. You're going to dig up my dead wife. Sure. That's what's going to happen. Like it's, it's interesting watching him deal with someone who's so checked out. He's just like, sure Dwight. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a little bit of, um, what's his name's energy from the, the kingdom, the savior. Gavin.

[00:35:26] He's got Gavin energy. Yeah. See, I read that as his name's Gordon, right? Yes. As Gordon being like, I'm just going to sit here and if you're going to have to kill me. And only when Dwight threatened people that he cared about, did he say, yeah. All right. I guess I have to go back. Cause I don't want that to happen. Yeah. I, yeah, it was an interesting way the actor performed it because it on paper, I agree with you in practice though. He just didn't seem that bothered. He was just like, okay.

[00:35:54] I take that as, um, more about the actor. I felt like he could have put a little bit more into it. Honestly. You hear that? Jason's going to take a dead white man. Sorry, Gordon actor. If you're listening. He was okay. He was fine. Uh, yeah. And then, yeah. Dwight says he's gonna take and get all of his friends and make them eat shit sandwiches for the rest of their lives. And yeah, you know, guys, I'm starting to think Dwight's not a great guy. Yeah.

[00:36:24] Well that, that leads into my point about Dwight. Yeah. Cool. Are you ready for it? So, um, Dwight is on easy street. I must've realized that was the perfect song choice back when we covered this the first time I don't remember, but it's, that's why it's torture. It's torture for Daryl because any song repeated loudly. Yep. Over and over. They use it in like Guantanamo Bay.

[00:36:54] It's just psychological torture to break him down. But also it's sort of like you could be on easy street if you submit, you know, that's the message he's getting. And, um, Dwight is on easy street cause he has authority, comfort, security. He gets that sandwich, but he also has to suffer the humiliation of having his face ironed, having his wife given over to Negan being mocked. And so easy street, the irony of the episode isn't so easy.

[00:37:22] And he's like struggling with it. Maybe he's looking, he's always looking at the Zeds in the perimeter. And I wonder if he's like thinking, well, that's my alternative or. Yeah. That seems like what it is. Or he's relating to them. Yeah. Or maybe that's not, maybe this is worse than that. Yeah. Um, then, uh, I mean, yeah, we've pretty much talked this through, but in their defense,

[00:37:48] I think the writers want us to feel like both Dwight and Sherry thought that their choices were either to die or to go back to Negan and accept his terms. He said, Dwight says to Sherry, uh, we did the right thing. It's a hell of a lot better than being dead. So I think he's trying to convince himself, but also they both might have chosen death if not for wanting to protect the other one. Yeah. That was, I think part of both of their calculus. And Daryl says, I get why you did it.

[00:38:17] You were thinking about someone else. So that sort of humanizes Dwight a little bit. If that's true, he was trying to help Sherry. But then seeing him exercise that authority to terrorize the people to make the sandwich is also like, well, that's kind of fucked up, dude. Like you're not that great a guy. Like you said, Randy. I can't tell if number 39 is Gordon or if he was stealing pickles from a pregnant woman. I feel like he looks at it and then looks over and she's pregnant. And she's like, God damn it, Dwight.

[00:38:47] Like of all the things. And that's how we know she was pregnant. Cause there were pickles. Pickles. She probably threw up off screen. Oh my God. Is Daryl pregnant? Daryl's pregnant. Oh. Shoot. God damn it. I do like that. Those three characters, Gordon, Dwight and Daryl all had a person or they're thinking of another person. And that's guiding their decision. So Dwight, Dwight obviously has Sherry.

[00:39:16] That's why he's staying and doing this. The reason Daryl's not giving in is because of Glenn. Yeah. He knows that he, he might think he deserves this a little bit, but also isn't going to give anything else. And then Gordon says when they first got there, he and his wife thought they knew how to fight the real monsters. But then Dwight says, I'll dig up your dead wife. So at some point in there, his wife died as well. And that might've been part of his giving up.

[00:39:46] Yeah. Yeah. So the three of them have a bit in common. Yeah. One of the most interesting things about the rewatch has been for me, I had forgotten that not, not only does Dwight punching Negan in theory immediately cause Glenn's death. He's also the reason Glenn's out at all. If he hadn't run off to try and find Dwight to avenge Denise's death, it's likely that Glenn wouldn't have actually left Alexandria and been there.

[00:40:15] So I do think, although the punch is clearly what we're drawing from for it's his fault. Yeah. It's actually more compounded than that. Cause not only did that make it his fault, if he hadn't done what he'd done to try and get Dwight, Glenn wouldn't even have gotten out anyway. Yeah. Or maybe wouldn't have. And it's just, it's a lot. It's like not as simple as it's one action. It is one main action, but there's this other layer to it as well of like, I already feel guilty. Like if Glenn had been killed because like Rick had done something, I think Daryl still would have felt some guilt. Yeah.

[00:40:44] Because he was the reason they were out there anyway. Definitely. I mean, there's, yeah, you're right. There's, there's a lot of cause and effect, but just that such a clear, definitive thing. Like if he punched Negan and then Negan killed Glenn, it would be hard for anyone not to feel. Yeah. No, exactly. Especially since Negan basically says, because of that, I'm doing this. Right. And it's like, well, no, you're just choosing to do it actually. You could not, you know, that's an option.

[00:41:14] Negan's like, that thought did not cross my mind. I feel like Maggie probably wants, moved to New York to keep Herschel away from Daryl. Cause like every time he's around one of their family members, they die. It's just like, we gotta get away from Daryl. We love him, but he's terrible. Hope she doesn't move to France. Spain. So what else, Lucy? Yeah.

[00:41:41] The, there's a lot of stuff in this season so far that is happening in a different order, in a different context from what I remember. And Sherry is an interesting character in that sense. Because you and I, Jason, have spoken a lot about the way Negan treats women. And the role of pregnancy tests in confirming that he does or doesn't sleep with them in this case, that he does.

[00:42:03] And there's no doubt in my mind, having watched this scene, that the implication is that he has slept with Sherry and there is a chance that she could be pregnant. The argument Ben and Alex made on Dead City, because they said I'd talk about it when it came up, that I thought was interesting but is not going to fly. And I do not think that it should fly. Was that one of the reasons the women might be taking pregnancy tests would be that they would be scared of being found out that they'd slept with someone else while supposedly betrothed to Negan.

[00:42:31] Clearly that's not what's happening, because we can see it plain as day here. Yeah, Dwight doesn't seem as, he doesn't seem like he's worried that she's pregnant. He just seems more like, upset about the situation. Exactly. And then it's all in the open, like the doctor is there. That doctor is terrible by the way. I was like, no, that's side member. That's the other Carson's brother, right? Yeah, right.

[00:42:56] But that's what Negan offers to let Dwight sleep with you know who, it means Sherry or any of the other wives, as long as they say yes, as if consent really matters to him. He has no idea what consent even means. But anyway, then he says like Dwight, oh, can you even do it after Eugene bit your dick, you know? So he doesn't like if, yeah, I don't know. He's trying to go to him again. Like he's trying to get him to do, to bite. It's funny.

[00:43:25] Everything Negan is doing to Dwight, Dwight is doing in a similar way to Daryl. It's passing it on directly. And I think, yeah, Negan is deluded. He thinks that as long as she says yes is enough, we're not understanding contextual coercion. And I just think the way he talks about women and the pussy bar is just absolutely disgusting.

[00:43:47] I recently was listening to a series about this guy you guys may have heard of called Jimmy Saville. Saville? Oh, yes. Oh yeah, from 28 years later. Yep. Yes, yeah, exactly. But also known for being a monstrous sexual predator and one of the- Yes. And disabled people and just anyone he could basically get his hands on. Yes.

[00:44:13] He has a quote that somebody had mentioned they had said to him is he said, never you can- He would have women at his place and he would say, you can have sex with any woman as long as she's not in distress. No. Meaning that as long as she wants it, you're allowed to do it. And you can ignore the fact that there's coercion and a power imbalance. So it is really interesting that that is the exact same thing that Negan ends up saying. Yep.

[00:44:40] And that line kind of comes up again in Dead City, very briefly, where he's talking to the bartender whose name is- Dillard. Dillard. Dillard. He's talking to Dillard after they have their successful mission and he's pointing out at the bar and he's like, you can have any one of these women. And he's like, kind of still in that same mindset. So it's weird that they keep reminding us of that. Yeah.

[00:45:07] I did think if we really, really wanted to prove Jeffrey Dean Morgan's point that he's never slept with any of these women, there is a way. And I think Ben and Alex were close and that's that Negan uses his wives as rewards for the saviors. Cause he says to Dwight, you can go sleep with any of them as long as they say yes. There's a chance he's saying that to all of the saviors and sort of using them as a brothel, like a reward system.

[00:45:36] And he's not, but that still makes them a horrible sexual predator. Right. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah. Oh no, that's fine. He wasn't thinking of it. What a great guy. In that case, the pregnancy test would just be to see if one of the other saviors got her pregnant. Yeah. I hope it wasn't fat, Joey. That would be a long. Whoa. Why not? Because she doesn't have birthing hips. I guess what I'm saying. So I had a whole point about this.

[00:46:06] Yeah. Cause we talked about it and Ben and Alex were theorizing that what you just said and watching the episode. Yeah. It's pretty clear to me, not only that, well, is that what they theorize that he was using them as a brothel. Not that it was. No, they gave it a little further into the brothel thing. It was just the idea that the pregnancy would actually be getting the husband into trouble rather than. Yeah. Like maybe they were still sleeping with their actual husbands. Got it.

[00:46:33] Because there is, I don't know if it happens in the show, but there is a situation where he finds out that a savior and his wife, his, a savior and the savior's wife are still sleeping together and the savior gets his face ironed as a result. And I don't remember if that happened in the show or not. I think that's just in the comic. Yeah. But yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess that, like you said, maybe that could be true. I don't think so. But if it was, it's just as bad. It's just as bad.

[00:47:03] But I think, I mean, this whole episode is about Negan just dominating everyone and, you know, just rubbing it in. Like I can iron your face and you're still going to be my top guy. And I think what fits right in there with that is I can also fuck your wife and you're just going to have to stand here and take it. She's hot. You know, he repeatedly says she's hot. Super hot. Yeah. And JDM says, you know, Negan is so against rape. He kills someone for it. That's what he tweeted out.

[00:47:29] And also personally, I think Negan slept alone, wasn't interested in more than talking people's ears off, not pants. And I'm just like, no, dude, you're, you're trying to make your character a hero. But like he's saying Negan is against rape. And so against rape, he kills someone for it. And that fits right in with Negan telling Dwight, you know, you can pick whoever you want as long as she says, yes, it's like, he's suggesting that there's an element of consent here.

[00:47:59] But Sherry's like to Daryl, whatever they say, just do it and go back while you can. You know, I did whatever he's done to you. There's more. There's always more. You won't get away. And when you're back, it'll be worse. There's no element of consent there. It's threats. Like she's doing everything she's doing because she feels threatened and she thinks she'll die otherwise. Yeah. And so I, there was a, there was a interview piece from way back then in Entertainment Weekly.

[00:48:28] I tried to find Angela Kang sort of trying to corroborate whether Negan slept with these women. I never heard her say anything, but Austin Emilio said, um, they asked him, Dwight sees Sherry getting a pregnancy test. And then again in the stairwell, what is he feeling when he sees her in these scenes? Is it disgust with himself or shame or something else? He says to her, we did the right thing. It's a hell of a lot better than being dead, but I'm not sure he honestly believes that. And Austin Emilio said, no, I don't think he does either.

[00:48:56] And I'll talk about that scene first. I think what he's trying to do is comfort himself and her in the moment. I don't necessarily think he 100% backs that because going back to him watching the walkers, it's like, he keeps comparing, is it better to be here or fucking on the chain? It's a tough decision. And then the first moment when I see Sherry with the pregnancy test, it's kind of the moment you want to get over with quickly. I come in there with Daryl and she sees him and then I see the pregnancy test and it's like, how horrible is it?

[00:49:23] Is that for like to see your ex lovers pregnancy test? I mean, God, what a disaster that stuff's happening, but then there's physical proof that it's happening and it's disgusting. Yeah. Not great timing. So it seems like he's saying it's clear evidence that Negan sleeping with her. Right. Yeah, definitely. So I sent that quote to Ben and Alex and Alex said, uh, he said, well done. That's a really, really good pull. Sorry, JDM.

[00:49:53] Negan was a total shit bag back then. And then Ben sent in a message, which I've not listened to in response, but I'm going to play it now. Okay. To Jason, Lucy, and the rest of the walking dead cast listening community, as well as the extended podcastica community. I come before you today to address a position that I have publicly maintained, defended, and on more than one occasion argued with perhaps more confidence than the available evidence warranted.

[00:50:22] For years, I have maintained that while Negan kept multiple women at the sanctuary whom he referred to as his quote unquote wives, it was entirely possible that he was not actually sleeping with these women. My position was that this arrangement may have simply been another carefully constructed display

[00:50:43] of power and control that perhaps somewhere beneath the leather jacket, the baseball bat, the barbed wire, the numerous crimes against humanity. There still remained a man who carried such a deep love and respect for Lucille, his actual wife, that he could just never bring himself to truly be with another woman.

[00:51:08] I defended this theory repeatedly and with conviction. It is therefore, with great reluctance, considerable, somewhat embarrassment, and absolutely no joy whatsoever, that I must acknowledge the following. I was wrong. Oh. He was indeed sleeping with the wives.

[00:51:38] All evidence points to it. The prosecution has made its case. The defense, mainly me, has exhausted all appeals. I can no longer in good conscience continue pretending otherwise. I would like to formally apologize to Jason, who's seen everyone at Podcastica, to the Walking

[00:52:04] Dead community, and to anyone who has ever had to listen to me perform the extraordinarily mental gymnastics required to keep this theory alive. I humbly ask for privacy during this difficult time. Oh, bet. However, let me be perfectly clear. While this revelation makes Sanctuary-era Negan considerably more deplorable than the version

[00:52:31] of him I had constructed in my head, it does not change how I feel about the character he has become. Particularly and specifically the character of Negan we now know through Dead City. Which you could hear through previous episodes in your Walking Dead cast and Podcastica feed. Available at Podcastica.com or wherever you hear your podcasts. People change. Negan has changed.

[00:52:59] And apparently, folks, so can I. Thank you for your time, and I will not be taking questions. Bravo. Ben, bravo. Ben, I respect a man who can. Yeah. Who can change his mind. Oh, buddy. Yeah, that's. Wow. I kind of want Ben to have more scandals now. I could have listened to that. Yeah. He's very good at the apologies. Very eloquent. Yeah. If only Negan would say what you just said, then I would totally forget everything Negan's ever done.

[00:53:30] Yes. Yeah. Seriously. I have like this, this thought here of like, it's a good. I went back and I looked at. So back when these episodes were airing, I used to love this was when the AV club was still really good and they were doing weekly coverage of The Walking Dead. And then just scrolling through my notes here to try and find it. It was Zach Handlin who did a lot of their reviews and he was always pretty fair minded with The Walking Dead. I think he didn't kind of go full Eric Cain at the end. Yeah.

[00:53:59] Um, and he had this to say about JDM and I just, I found this quite interesting reading it. But the more we see of him, Negan, the clearer it becomes. He's just not right for the part. I don't know if it's bad casting or bad writing or just the dud performance, but his smirking Joker light appearances consistently deflate the tension in every scene he's in. And given how much the episode and this storyline depends on Negan being absolutely terrifying and unpredictable, this is, this is going to become more and more of a problem as things go on. Really, it's an impossible situation.

[00:54:28] For Negan to work, he needs to be something astonishing, a monster who changes our assumptions about survival in the post-apocalyptic world, a figure of menace and chaos and ruthless, merciless efficiency. Instead, we get a guy who talks like a 12 year old boy smoking his first cigarette. Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if that's JDM wanting even in that moment for his character to be charming and overcome anyone's objections to what Negan's doing, you know.

[00:54:54] It's, it's interesting because I think it's such an interesting pop culture case of the meaning of the text being handed over to the performer rather than the author or the person who's kind of written it. Right. And I think, I do sort of feel with JDM who I'm sure is a fine person and I've never had the pleasure of meeting him. Yeah. Didn't you know what you were fucking signing up for? Yeah. Like I just, I don't, that's the bit that continues to frustrate me as I'm like there

[00:55:24] are probably actors who would have like run with it and been like, yeah, I'm a monster. Yep. Well, the thing in the comics though, Negan was hilarious. Yeah. He really was. So I think people like that about the character, even knowing that he was doing bad things. So he was trying to channel that, you know. Yeah. The mismatch for me is that at least in the comic, the Negan character is huge. Like he's a physical force. Yeah. So I feel like you could imagine him growing up and getting away with saying whatever he

[00:55:53] wants to whoever he wants. Cause he's a big guy. Yeah. And in this, it, you feel like there's a little bit of like, well, how did this guy, like it feels like some of the other saviors could take him. Simon could kick his ass. Yeah. If he wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that is like a little bit of like physically a mismatch for the character. Cause if he was huge and doing all of those things, you're, you'd still be afraid of him. Cause you're like, yeah. Um, he could like fucking break my neck just by like, yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:23] I got a laugh at his joke. But all of this said, I still, as much as I struggle with Negan or want to keep reminding people that he did these bad things. And some of which he never apologized for, et cetera, et cetera. I also think that JDM is engaging and magnetic to watch. And there's so many entertaining scenes with Negan that are great. You know, that's true too. For me anyway.

[00:56:52] I've never found this chunk of the show to be a slog for me. At least. I don't remember if this was a season I maybe had the opportunity to binge, but I always found it engaging. It felt scary. I never knew what was going to happen next. So I have liked his performance. The one thing I wish had continued is that he just accepted that he was an asshole. Like, I think you can have a character in the group who just like, will always do the

[00:57:21] wrong thing. And sometimes it helps out and it accepts that about himself or like knows that or is delusional. Like I could see him thinking, no, Rick's group likes me. And then against all odds, them being like, no, like that one time Daryl in the later season says, what do you think we're buddies now or something? I was thinking about that line. Yeah. I love that relationship though. Like, no, you're here, but fuck you. You suck. And like, just let that continue.

[00:57:51] And then, I don't know, by season three of dead city, you could have people starting to be like, all right, I'm a little tired of always yelling at you. The two cardinal sins for me that the writers have made with Negan is one that he never really apologized for coercing women. He apologized for everything else. And I probably said that way too many times. And then number two is in dead city when they tried to make it as if he was just acting

[00:58:19] when he was getting, uh, all getting into humiliating people and stuff that that was all just a show he was putting on cause he thought he had to do it to save his people. Yeah. I was trying to look for some of that in this episode. And there is a scene where he just comes walking through and everybody kneels and he doesn't look happy. Like the persona. Yeah. The persona he gives us. You place that scene quite interestingly. Yeah. Like, why is he grumpy if he's like the king of this place?

[00:58:48] Which did kind of make me wonder, like, was there some grain of that? Yeah. And I will accept if they're saying like, yeah, that's, that is what we wanted, but they did a terrible job showing it. It never came through. Yeah. So it feels very retconned. So I am trying to keep an eye out for this as we're going. Um, yeah. Yeah. That behavior does fit with narcissism because narcissists work to overcome or to charm people,

[00:59:17] but once they have them under their spell, then they, like I said, devalue because they're like, oh, you fucking fell for it. You loser. You know, that kind of a thing. I think, yeah, for me, cause I think I obviously think about this a lot. Um, I think the writers whiffed. I think that was it. I think, I think there are things in the comics that just don't translate well onto the screen. I think in the comic, the things that there aren't in the comic that I think allow you

[00:59:44] for some more generous interpretations of the text and maybe a more surprising relationship with, of the reader to Negan are we are, I am Negan is not something that happens in the comics. Nobody, there's not that cult element isn't there. Um, and I think the writers used it in season six. I don't think it is. Cause I think they use it. They say I am Negan. Do they? I think they do. I need to go back and reread it, but I really didn't think it was a big part of that. Cause I think the writers use it in season six as a misdirect of like,

[01:00:14] Oh, maybe we did kill him. Which one do you think was Negan? Which is still a really funny line. Um, but the other one is there's no pregnancy test chat in the comics. He is much more theatrical and much more like, these are my harem kind of thing. Yeah. That may be that Ben has just given his very public apology. Um, if they'd been more willing to let him be more extreme in some things or to just lift

[01:00:42] more directly from the comic, I think we would have gotten, but they, they do this thing where they kind of stuff this down our throat so much. It's not enough to kind of allude to violent things. It's like, we must see them. It's not enough to, like, bad things are happening with these wives. It's like, here's a pregnancy test. It's, it's not just that, you know, some of these people are really into being saviors. It's like, it's full on cult mentality and things like that.

[01:01:05] And I just think they, they push that so hard that the minute they try and kind of come back on it, it's like they, they can't correct it. They can't correct the impression that we have. I don't think anyone listening to our pod is going to have, I think either you like Negan or you don't. I don't think anyone 10 years on is going to be persuaded one way or the other by us talking about it, but I find it interesting to talk about it because I think it's, he's such a divisive character. Yeah.

[01:01:33] I think people, there's probably people who listen to our podcasts who are recognized. Like, I think all three of us do that. There's good elements to JDM's Negan as far as a character in a TV show, but maybe they made a few, some flaws, but it doesn't mean that it's all shit, you know? No, I don't think it's all shit. Entertainment wise, this is an entertaining character to me. Like I love him, his introduction. Absolutely. I thought that was gripping and scary and new, very fresh feeling.

[01:02:03] Um, two seasons of him is too much though. Yeah. I think also just like this two seasons of one storyline. Yeah. No matter who or what it was, was probably going to be too much. Yeah. So chat GPT says you're right, Lucy. They didn't say I am Negan in the comics. Oh, thank you. I'm a Claude person myself, but I'll take it. We've been warming up the iron, Jason. And since you were wrong, okay.

[01:02:31] Ben has sent you the boiler plate for your public apology. Shut up! Yeah, right. Ladies and gentlemen. But I genuinely, comic book Negan is one of my favorites. His arc in the comics plays out so well. And I just think, but I think with, there was, I've got, I think I've just said all this before. Like, see all podcasts ever in which we talk about Negan because I've said it all before. But, um, I don't, I don't dislike Jeffrey Dean Morgan as a person, but I, I dislike when

[01:03:00] the performer takes the wheels to the detriment of the storyline. I think that's never good. Absolutely. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, and I admire performers who don't mind playing things that aren't so pretty or nice. Yeah. You know, like, uh, uh, that movie monster with Charlize Theron. I never actually saw that, but I've seen pictures of her in it. She doesn't look pretty, you know? Yeah. There was a, I used to, I love sitcoms, you know, I'm a big comedy person.

[01:03:28] Uh, I really enjoyed Mindy Kaling's, um, the Mindy project. And there was a thing they did in season four, which actually involved Garrett Dillahunt getting written into the show at that point, which was quite good, but they knew one of the romantic leads was going to have to leave to film, uh, um, film a movie. So they basically wrote him out of the show, but they, in doing so they wrote it as a breakup and they basically did such a good job of making you hate this character that when he

[01:03:55] came back as like a romantic lead in later seasons, when he could come back to the show, they had to do a lot of scrabbling to kind of root you for him. And I sometimes think about that with Negan. I'm like, Oh, you guys went hard and you can't really redirect. Like you did a good job. You're going to have to win us back over and it's not super going to work. Um, yeah, it's clearly not in the plan to like have a spinoff show for him. Yeah.

[01:04:21] Well, that's happens where anti, uh, where villains get such big fan bases that they change them into antiheroes. I mean, we, we have repeated all this so much, but Venom is a character that's had that happen. And, uh, Luke, uh, Spencer in general hospital where he was in early on in his arc, he raped Laura and then they became Luke and Laura, you know, and they read, they retconned it that he

[01:04:46] actually seduced her stuff like that. Yeah. By the way, Garrett Dillahunt was really good in lanterns and you get to see his naked butt. Oh, sold. There was a rumor he was in line for Negan. And I do sometimes wonder what that would have been like. The one that really intrigues me is, um, Matthew Lillard. Yes. I think he auditioned. I think he could do the like flipping between like, Oh, this guy's my best friend or Oh, this guy's gonna kill me.

[01:05:14] I also just don't know if he's big enough. I need some. No, and I don't think he's traditionally attractive in the way that maybe Fat Joey should have taken on the role. Fat Joey man. JPM wore a muscle suit in Watchmen. They should have just let him keep wearing his muscle suit. Right. Maybe he wore it to the audition and then he turned up on day one and they were like, are you kidding? Oh. That's why his pants are always slightly falling down. All right.

[01:05:42] What do either anybody have any more points? I just have one more. Yeah. I don't have any points. Just notes. I think just talking about Daryl a little bit. Yeah. That's what I had. Yeah. I'll be brief. I think the one thing that I really like about this episode is that Daryl is such a badass. This is like quintessential badass area from Daryl. Um, you've got when, uh, Negan swings the bat at him and he doesn't flinch and he's like,

[01:06:12] Oh, you don't scare easy. And it's like, yeah, I like. And Negan, Negan loves that. Like I was reading through a transcript of an interview that I did with Angela Kang and it reminded me, she said, Negan loves strong characters and almost wants to win their approval. Yeah. But the thing is he wants them to use their strength for him. Right. So he doesn't want to break Daryl to the point where he's a quivering pile of jelly. He wants Daryl to be one of his top guys. Definitely. Yeah.

[01:06:41] Uh, then the fact that Daryl throws the first punch when that group comes up to start fighting him. Yeah. Like he's, he's never not fighting and like, you know, that guy's going to hit him extra hard after. So it's like, clearly he's just defiant. Uh, and then of course at the end when he says his own name, when he says, who are you? And there's that long, hard pause. And I remember when it first aired thinking like, Oh shoot, they converted Daryl. And then he says, Daryl. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:07:10] That's the greatest one word I've ever heard. Yeah. Fuck you guys. Cause the whole episode is about showing this guy, Dwight, who has been broken and wondering if he'll, they'll be able to get Daryl to that place. And then they did two things towards the end where they had Dwight show a picture, leave that picture of Glenn, which is really fucked up thing to do. Bash Ted in and everything. And then they, what did they do? If it was just a happy picture of Glenn.

[01:07:35] I'm like, then they had Dwight play the Roy Everson song and Daryl starts crying. Yeah. And so those are two things. Angela King's such a great writer that make it, make you worry a little bit more that maybe he is broken. He gets sent into Negan right after that. And he's just like staring at his feet the whole time. Yeah. So when he said, I agree. When he said Daryl, it was just triumphant. Like he did not break. Fuck you. Yeah.

[01:08:02] And he doesn't even say it in a shitty way. He kind of just says it really factually. He's like Daryl. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's not like Daryl motherfucker. He's just like Daryl. Yeah. My name is Daryl. And that's Daryl's superpower always that he's always, he doesn't have any subterfuge. He's always what you see is what you get with him. You know, it's just so much his character. And now to have that be true when he's supposed to pretend to be somebody else. Yeah. Great. He's so scrappy.

[01:08:32] There's another point in the Daryl show where he uses his name and it has the same level of meaning. I forget exactly when it happens, but I think he's meeting somebody and they're sizing each other up and the guy's like says his name and he goes like, I'm Daryl. And that means like, we're cool. We got this. We're friends now. So I like that Daryl has many meanings throughout the show. Yeah. I like that when Negan said he took him into the room and he goes, all this could be yours.

[01:09:00] And it just looks like some shitty apartment, but with a bed up on bricks. But of course in the apocalypse, anything is good. And there's, especially I saw that there was a TV with little Atari joysticks. Yeah. So it was like cool video games. And then I, and then I thought, oh, he could be watching. Who's the boss? Like Dwight. And if they would have put Bork and Mindy on the TV, maybe they would have gotten him. Except Daryl literally comes from a McMansion neighborhood. Like this is a downgrade no matter what.

[01:09:30] Yeah. He's like in Alexandria, it's mainly solar power. Is it ethical here? That's right. Oil and stuff. We're a sustainable community. Oh my goodness. Um, it's, it's so important to Dwight to break Daryl because if he can break Daryl, then it will prove that he was right to come back and that he can have power. Yeah.

[01:09:55] It's such a clever choice to have introduced Dwight before he becomes the kind of mutilated Dwight savior. I think at the time I remember being a bit like, I don't know if I understand why they've bothered with this. And now I'm like, no, it's perfect because Daryl of all people has this insight into when Dwight and Sherry were, were kind of whole when they were a thing. And Sherry is so shocked. Pardon? And we have that insight too. Yeah.

[01:10:22] And then Sherry's so shocked to see him. Um, and I think he becomes a personal mission for Sherry as well to kind of save him. He's almost a proxy Dwight. She's like, I couldn't save Dwight. Yeah. He's become something different, but I can save you. And I think she literally does in a later episode. Yeah. I remember when I first saw this, I kept wondering if, oh, are they hinting that there could be some relationship between the two? Yeah. Because she's really keys in on him.

[01:10:53] Yeah. All right. Notes. Yeah. Anybody got any notes? I think Dr. Carson dies a horrible death at some point and I'm not sad about it. He's a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, he does seem like he's, like he was taken from another community and brought here presumably against his will, but he's like, Negan, I'll take care of you. Yeah. Things are grand here. Yeah. I'm a terrible bedside doctor.

[01:11:21] It's interesting because in the comics, the Carcassons are twins and I thought it was interesting they didn't go for that in the show. Yeah. I wouldn't have said no to more Harlan curse. That's all I'm saying. Um, was Fat Joey bad at his job or was that a deliberate trap? That was deliberate. Right. I think that was similar to the Theon thing in, uh, Game of Thrones where it's like they were testing him to see what he would do and he failed the test, but it's like a psychological destabilizing.

[01:11:50] So like you can't trust even what you're seeing anymore. So like he can, from now on, he'll be questioning if a door is unlocked. I probably shouldn't go through that. So yeah. That's interesting. So justice for Fat Joey. He's not bad at his job. Nope. He did it the way it was supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. Um, occasionally the way Negan says things make me laugh. And when he says, I'm going to go get me a drink, I don't know. It just really made me laugh. I was like, fair enough.

[01:12:19] Um, hydration is important. Um, I think that's it. Oh, does Eugene end up in that apartment? I think so. Or a similar one. It's either set up the same way. I don't know if it's the same. I feel like it's different. Yeah. That final shot of Dwight throwing the bottle and seeing Gordon as a Z is quite something. Yeah. Yep. Um, but Eugene, I remember he did have one of the wives in there, like massaging him or something. Yeah. He's like, I'm Negan.

[01:12:49] I've always been Negan. I'm like, all right. God, Eugene. Like. Yeah. Which is so much better after we've had the Daryl version. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. The director is just like, do the opposite. Yep. We'll talk about it when we get there and we'll decide for when we get there. Yeah. All right. Um, so one of the things that always stood out to me in this, I don't know if anybody will agree. Daryl is tortured out throughout this whole thing.

[01:13:18] And I still feel like it wasn't quite enough. There's like psychological. And I think there's one beat that I think it could have been added. There's sort of this flicker flip transition where you see like one scene, a couple seconds of the next scene, a couple seconds of the other. And it's cutting back and forth between Daryl getting beat up and, um, Dwight pushing his broken bike down the road. And this type of transition was made popular in the movie easy rider.

[01:13:47] Um, but usually it flickers like two or three times, but they only cut back once. So you see Daryl hit the ground and it feels, and I don't know if this happens to other people, like there should be one more shot of him getting hit or hurt to really sell the, like, this is horrible. It keeps happening. Um, and it's not in there. So just like one little note, I think Daryl should have gotten a little more beaten up on screen. I think they should have chopped off his fingers and then it would have been perfect.

[01:14:16] Just like he did to frost later on. Or like fucked up his feet a little bit. I'm just kidding, by the way. Cut half of his hair. They're out, right? They should have like dangled the squirrel in front of him and then being like, nope, can't have it. You can't have this for dinner. Uh, the letters on the jumpsuits. Um, I realized they all coincide with swear words. So Daryl is a asshole. Then we have SNF.

[01:14:45] So shit and fuck. So that feels in line with what Negan would do. Right. Cause a comes up all the time and we try to think if it means the same thing, but I think I like your meaning. You know what Negan? That's pretty funny. Yeah. I don't want to be C. Like, let's just put it that way. And then this is less of a note, but I did have some jokes here to lighten up the mood. So I'll sprinkle these as we go for the rest. What's a zombie's least favorite meal?

[01:15:17] Uh, I don't know. Clowns because they taste funny. Like it. Like it. Like it. All right. The only note I had is that the sandwich Norman Reedus ate was a mixture of vegan sausage and apple butter with cherry preserves for color. They, there really was a dog food sandwich, but that was only used for closeups. Huh. You didn't have to eat it. That did look really good. Yeah.

[01:15:46] The mix of sweet and savory actually gives me the bulk. Oh no. Like that makes me feel quite unwell. I'm like, I think I might prefer the dog food. Can I please just have the dog food? I'd love them to describe it. I'm so sorry. This is my third sandwich of the day and I'm just wondering if we could go back to dog food. I appreciate you terrorizing people for apple butter, but. I'm so sorry. I don't want to be that kind of person, but in Alexandria we do organic dog food.

[01:16:20] All right. Trivia IMDb. Yeah. So interestingly, what you were saying about the easy rider kind of cuts Randy, apparently a car chase was filmed between Dwight and Gordon, but it was cut due to time. That's right. Cause I kind of thought, Oh, uh, Dwight's bike got bashed up out of nowhere. What was that all about? And I think there must've been some kind of case that we just didn't. I think the implication is supposed to be like a zombie fell on it, but it does seem way more beat up than it should be.

[01:16:50] So that makes sense. I think they probably threw that in to take the place of the car chase scene. Yeah. Um, Negan says to Daryl, you don't scare easily. I love that. Similarly, this was said to Glenn by Merle Dixon, Daryl's brother. Merle says, you don't scare easy. I like that in an earlier, uh, season. Uh, presumably when he's torturing Glenn. Yeah. The letter A makes an appearance again, this time it's on Daryl's shirt.

[01:17:15] Um, I'm sure we spoke about this, but it is the first appearance of the sanctuary. So we're kind of finding stuff out about it through the eyes of a new person. Which was filmed in the same lot as the prison. Oh, wow. Interesting. Um, the relentlessly upbeat song used to psychologically torture Daryl on a continuous loop in his cell is titled Easy Street, as Jason mentioned by the Collapsible Hearts Club featuring Jim Bianco and Petra Hayden.

[01:17:42] After the episode aired, the obscure indie song went viral, skyrocketing into the iTunes top charts. That's cool. Interestingly enough, watching this episode like nine times, it was actually the song at the beginning that was more, um, I was feeling that more than Easy Street. Yeah. Town Call Malice. Um, it's, uh, Town Call Malice is a really pivotal song in the film of Billy Elliot. That's what it always reminds me of.

[01:18:09] Um, Norman Reedus spent filming days almost entirely naked inside a tight concrete box set built on the soundstage in Sonoy. To capture Daryl's total degradation, Reedus requested that the set be kept dim and uncomfortable eating cold dog food sandwiches, which as Jason mentioned, were actually made from meatloaf, sausage and applesauce. Um, prop master John Sanders created the dog food cans that Dwight prepares for Daryl. While Daryl's sandwiches were made of edible meats, the actual dog food cans seen on camera

[01:18:39] used custom printed save years brand labels to fit the sanctuary strict ration economy. Um, the sanctuary set, uh, was built inside a former textile mill complex in Georgia. The art department used rusted metal fence and corrugated steel and exterior yard ringed with impaled walkers bound to the pikes for defense. Um, this episode marks the seventh time we see Daryl cry. The other five times are there's some person who's obsessed.

[01:19:08] And they catch it every time. He didn't, he's, he's cried once a season. It's not really like a rarity. Yeah. Normalize male emotions, damn it! Like, um, but if you're interested, he's also cried in 315, The Sorrowful Life, 412 Still, 5-1 No Sanctuary, 5-8 Coda, and 5-10 Them, and this one. God, what a big baby. Oh, and 7-1! His brother died. Oh, this girl he was really close to died. Oh, he's being tortured.

[01:19:37] God, be a man! Little bitch! Shut up, Carol, eat your sandwich. Um, and we covered the timeline earlier. It's basically the day after the lineup and a couple of days after that. And I think they're gonna go to Alexandria the next day from when we finish. And bear in mind, Carol's doing all her kingdom stuff as this stuff is all happening. Yep, she and Morgan are just having a great time. They're having a fucking steak, eh, man? They're like, having a great time. Yeah, they're in the choir.

[01:20:07] They show up and they're like, why do you guys dislike these savior guys so much? Like, yeah, we met Gavin. He wasn't that bad. He seemed alright. Only on The Walking Dead would Atari seem like the best thing that could happen in your life. Only on The Walking Dead would you willingly consume a dog food sandwich with no hesitation whatsoever.

[01:20:33] Only in The Walking Dead would you still want to hang out with a guy who asks if your penis was broken after you were bit by another guy in regards to having sex with your wife after he's taken her from you and has sex with her with you knowing. True. Yeah, I think that is the only context that would happen. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:51] Okay, we're back. It's time for some listener moans, groans and grunts. Dina says, ooh, my favorite. Can't imagine why. Yeah. Because Daryl's naked. What? What? What? Lonnie Gilbert says, please tell me you're going to play Easy Street. We played the first couple bars, but I am afraid to play copyrighted music now. Sorry.

[01:22:21] Brad Holt says, lol, I used that song as my wake up alarm on my phone. Wow. Joe Levine says, missed that you were back with the rewatch. Just saw that episode two downloaded. Might have to skip Easy Street. Nobody needs that running through their head. Laughing emoji. All right, I'm going to play it now. No, I'm just kidding. Easy Street. Megan Diley-Layman says,

[01:22:45] Dwight making and eating his Dagwood sandwich is one of the most clever and memorable sequences from the series. We agree. Could you please give a word for word recap of the pregnancy test scene and settle once and for all if it was Sherry checking to see if she was pregnant by Negan or by Dwight and whether she was happy about it? Because this is pretty clear to me, but others seem to have different ideas about what was happening there.

[01:23:09] Rachel Teal answered, I believe it would be Negan's and she was relieved it was negative and Dwight was being sarcastic when he said maybe next time, right? And Megan says that was exactly my take, which would prove that Negan was sleeping with the wives. Some folks have argued Dwight and Sherry were trying to get pregnant and that Negan never slept with the wives, which totally baffles me. Yeah, I think that's just an instinct to try to go along with the sort of rose colorifying of Negan later on, you know, or I mean, you know, he fine.

[01:23:37] He redeemed himself, but that doesn't mean that he was always redeemed. They were actually using the pregnancy test to test the asparagus idea. So she peed on it after eating asparagus and Dr. Carson was seeing who could smell it. Oh, that makes more sense. It's a storyline that gets dropped, but it was important early on. Wait, what's the dialogue there? It's negative. Oh, maybe next time. So she just needs to eat more asparagus. She didn't eat enough asparagus, yeah. It's negative for a spare-upist.

[01:24:07] Negan's a good guy. I think I'm not comfortable talking about this anymore without Ben's lawyer's presence. So I think we should. You should move on. I think we, you know, what's been said has been said. Yeah. We're in the legal process of figuring it all out. Yeah. That's all we can say at this time. Oh my goodness. Leighy Disley says, Hello, hello, Jason, Lucy and Randy. You were correct with my surname last week.

[01:24:36] I have disappointed many who mishear my name and believe I'm heir to the Disney fortune, but sadly, before I sadly let them down. I think The Cell is a very strong episode. I've always been impressed with Norman's ability to portray the lack of sleep Daryl is experiencing. Maybe he really was knackered from shooting the show, but if not, it's a very convincing performance. For a bit of Dwight defense, I bring forward evidence. God, everyone. Yeah. Jason, have we been making legal threats against our listeners and you're not telling me?

[01:25:07] You're all okay. We're not going to see. For a bit of Dwight defense, I bring forward evidence. But we might though. Depends on the situation. Yeah. If this is defamatory, then we might. But so far, Dwight has done what he can to keep Daryl alive. This starts when he shot him back in 615. He says, you'll be all right. And I believe he isn't referring to the gunshot, but to the upcoming lineup. He knew from experience that Negan would go for the most intimidating person.

[01:25:33] And by weakening Daryl, he was saving him from attention, which worked when he went for Abraham. Daryl's punch unfortunately ruined this, but luckily or unluckily for Glenn, Negan decided to kidnap him instead of loose ceiling his head. In this episode, Dwight tries to get Daryl to give in to Negan, not because he likes Negan's system, but to save Daryl's life. I assume Dwight is doing this because he feels he owes Daryl a debt for the burned forest.

[01:25:57] A weaker reason than just being a decent human being, but still he is keeping Daryl alive, which shows he has better morals than a number of other characters. It may seem a poor effort whilst he simultaneously tortures Daryl, but hey, the intention is there and he can't risk suspicion that he isn't really an Negan loyalist. I conclude my defense. I think that's interesting, Lehi. I hadn't thought about that because he doesn't seem to shoot him to kill him. I'm going to percolate on that a little bit. I don't hate it.

[01:26:27] My immediate reaction is when he says you'll be all right. He means I just shot you, but you're gonna live. And when he's trying to break Daryl, I think maybe you could have a point, but my guess is he's just doing his job.

[01:26:47] And the reason why he's so frustrated that Daryl doesn't get broken is because he knows that was his job and he looks bad if he failed at it. Hmm. Yeah, I would some other evidence to the contrary would be that when Daryl punches Negan, Dwight is the first one to come up with the crossbow asking him to shoot him. Oh shit, yeah. I don't think he likes Daryl.

[01:27:16] Yeah, well, I do feel like there is a little bit of like as much of a kinship as can be in this episode or like I agree in this episode. He does want him to succeed in becoming a savior. So he doesn't want him to die, but I don't know if that's quite the same as wanting to keep him alive. Yeah. I mean, I just think and I don't have a strong of an opinion about this, but I just think he Negan was like you need to break this guy.

[01:27:46] And Daryl was like, all right, boss. And then he failed. So yeah, damn it. Yeah, I think he might be Dwight's continuing personal professional development. Yeah. Yeah. He's on a PCP or whatever it is. Yeah. Correction. Yeah. But yeah. Negan in his last review was like, I'm going to give you this project and I want you to see it through to the deadline, but if I don't see results, we are going to have to have a performance review.

[01:28:11] I mean, yeah, I like this Lee he that you brought this and I do think like Negan for the most part, Dwight redeems himself later on. Mm hmm. That's what I think. Absolutely. And some of that. Yeah. Through Daryl a little bit. And yeah, Daryl's ability to seem sleep deprived or Norman's ability is really strong. Mm hmm. Yeah. Who's next? Andrea Maitland says hi, Jason and Lucy.

[01:28:40] Oh, hey, Andrea. It's just me. Well, this is awkward. Welcome back. It's so good to hear your voices, though. I thoroughly enjoyed the time with Ben and Alex. Love them. So the cell rewatching. This was as hard this time as the first time watching my Daryl be tortured will never be okay. But Daryl standing up and not bending the knee to Negan. That's my man. The easy street song. Ugh.

[01:29:09] Norman Reedus naked though. Even filthy is definitely a treat after watching especially. I don't know. Mmm. Yeah. After watching Dead City, it's hard to go back to this version of Negan. Hate him so much. Dwight too. Trying to be a dollar store Daryl. The humiliation of Daryl also hurts more because he's mourning Glenn and feels responsible. I love that Dwight thought he had broken him, but when brought before Negan, he still didn't bend.

[01:29:38] He is and always will be Daryl. Yeah. I also forgot that everyone kneels when Negan passes by. What an asshole. The intro to the saviors is so bleak in comparison to the kingdom. One last thing. I did want to make a comment on Dead City and the relationship between Maggie and Negan. Actually, when Maggie called him family, I could just hear Jason cringing. Yes, you're right. However, Maggie did say she would never forgive him.

[01:30:05] I just think the point is people move on sometimes so things don't weigh them down anymore. But rewatching today's episode reminds me for sure how despicable Negan was in the beginning. So happy you guys are back. Missed you. Thanks, Andrea. Missed you too. Thanks, Andrea. Glad to see you wrote in. Is it time for another joke? Yeah, let's mix another one in here. Good call. What type of car owners should you avoid in the apocalypse? The zombie apocalypse.

[01:30:37] What? BMW drivers because they'll never tell you when they're turning. Like that one. That took me a minute. Nice. Nice. Okay. Rachel Teal Edwards says, I know what this is going to be about. I have a feeling. I vividly remember watching this one in real time as I imagine everyone does. It's a legendary, it's legendary, a unique episode of television and certainly unlike any other Walking Dead episode.

[01:31:05] It was incredibly hard to watch the first time around and I remember being hopeful for Daryl's escape, having no idea the unbelievable amounts of torture we the viewers were in for. Oh, about to wait an eternity for any sign of hope. This is just the beginning of the everlasting emotional beat down. But you know, my main focus, I really don't remember much about what's coming up. So this makes me be afraid. Um, but you know, my main focus this week is Dwight.

[01:31:34] He's a weak, sad little man who should be dead. Wait, let me read that in more. What I think is probably Rachel's voice. He's a weak, sad little man who should be dead. Just kidding. He's wearing a Daryl's vest, essentially cosplaying a cool, strong man of integrity and honor. Yeah. Dime story, Daryl. Honestly, even Gordon has a stronger character than Dwight. I agree with that. He basically says, why are we putting up with this? It's crazy. I'm not going back. So just shoot me.

[01:32:04] Unfortunately for him, Dwight has fully committed to being Negan's servant, convincing himself that because he carries a gun and does Negan's violent bidding, that he's above the lowly peasants and has real power. But they're all under Negan's thumb. Dwight just gets to bully pregnant women out of pickles while Negan fucks his wife. Very cool, bro. Well said. I mean, I don't disagree with you at all. Rachel. He and Sherry talking in the stairwell. He says it's better than being dead. That right there shows exactly who he is.

[01:32:32] Glenn, Daryl, Abraham, Rick, Morgan. Our men would never believe this or allow themselves or their women to be in the position Dwight and Sherry are in. I would argue Rick is in a similar position right now. But she goes on. Eugene, not included. If I'm being generous, maybe Dwight's unknowingly projecting his hatred for himself onto Daryl, knowing he's the better man who refuses to acquiesce despite knowing it cost him his life. Daryl tells him he gets why he did it and that he's also thinking of someone else.

[01:33:01] And that's why he can't give in. Daryl knows Glenn wouldn't give in and he can't let him down now. He knows Maggie wouldn't want him to. Hell, maybe he's just that loyal to Rick. Yeah, I was wondering. I didn't necessarily think he was just talking about Glenn, but it's not just himself that he's fighting for. Yes, he feels guilty and sick about what happened and he finds strength in the love for and of his family. Suck on that, Dwight.

[01:33:26] While Negan's final monologue of the episode was mostly exposition and pretty boring, I laughed out loud earlier when he said, are you okay down there? Your penis? Side note, I can't believe I missed last week's feedback post, but mostly what I have to say is, yes, the kingdom and King Ezekiel and Jerry and Sheba. I'm so thrilled to be back there. So much chemistry between the king and Carol. Wowza. So much. He's so delicious though.

[01:33:52] Who could resist, quote, trying a pomegranate if he showed up at your door like that? Cheers guys. So good to be back at it. Well, so good to hear you again. I missed you, Rachel. Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah, I think the fact that Negan says penis instead of like your dick or something almost feels like him turning the knob down just a touch to be like, oh no, I said like the factual name for it. So like, I'm being a good guy. Yeah.

[01:34:21] I'm just concerned. Okay. Next we have Rinaldi Kaleeks, who says, Randy, one half of Lucy's ship name for us. Rinaldi, my fellow main resident. It's exciting news that you're a special guest for this easy street episode. I'm sad that I missed out on writing into the podcast for the well episode. Ezekiel and Jerry are in my top 10 and Shiva is great too. I love the kingdom.

[01:34:49] The chemistry between Carol and Ezekiel was great, meaning it was the complete opposite of Sasha and Abraham. Was that joke too soon? No, you're fine. Anyway, season seven, episode two, the well is ranked 47 on my walking dead rankings in between 48 season 10 episode 16, a certain doom, which is the finale to the whisperer storyline. And 46 season nine, episode 13 choke point where Daryl and the whisperer beta have a fight in, have a big fight in a warehouse. Yeah.

[01:35:18] The well was a great episode, but episode 13, the cell was an average episode. It was okay. Not terrible, but definitely not as good as the premiere or the well. I have the cell at 112 in between 113 season five, episode five self help where Eugene admits to Glenn and the other members of the group Tara called great him that he is not a scientist and he lied about the cure for the zombie virus.

[01:35:42] And at 111 is season two, episode nine trigger finger where Herschel admits to Rick and Glenn that he was a fool to think his zombified loved ones in the barn could be cured. That was a good one. And the cell's biggest strength other than easy street is Daryl telling Negan I'm Daryl. After what was admitted, what was an admittedly long and boring monologue by Negan. I liked learning more about the backstory for Dwight and Sherry.

[01:36:05] I find this Dwight and Sherry storyline tragic, like a dark take on Romeo and Juliet or a more realistic, horrifying version of Rick and Michonne. It's sad with emotional complexity because these people are helping Negan, but they're also victims of Negan too. There's also the fact that these circumstances mean there's no way Dwight and Sherry had sex and that Sherry is worried Dwight impregnated her. That's ridiculous. No average guy is having sex with his wife if he resents them and is jealous she's attracted to a guy like Daryl.

[01:36:34] And he's angry that his wife is wearing a cocktail dress for Negan blinded by guilt over his own failures, anger and insecurity. You gonna have my wife, my kids call you daddy? Is that what you want? Rick says to Shane with disgust. I'm pretty sure Rick was still pissed off Shane slept with Laurie. But Dwight wasn't irrationally angry at Sherry. They were so happy in the sanctuary under Negan's thumb that they celebrated by sleeping together. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Sarcasm.

[01:37:01] These Negan fanatics have the most ridiculous pro-Negan arguments and I like Negan as a character and I find it ridiculous. Anyway, thank you Easy Street for making me endure the weak points of this episode. And thank you Jason, Lucy and Randy for making the most of this okay episode in my opinion. Thanks, Rinald. Yeah, thanks Rinaldi. Thanks brother. Amber Lovo says,

[01:37:27] Hello friends. I hope everyone had a good summer. I missed you all and I'm excited to get back to the rewatch. As most listeners know, I'm a first time watcher since season five episode eight. Jason, I appreciate you reaching out last week about the rewatch. My feedback was short but I'm grateful you remembered me. I know there's probably more coming from the kingdom and I know appearances are deceiving. I was thoroughly entertained by the sudden appearance of a Shakespearean court in the middle of the apocalypse.

[01:37:55] As always, I don't want to trust any outsiders but Ezekiel definitely intrigued me. And I want to hope that we're meeting a good group. I know it's unlikely though. So as some might know, Daryl is a favorite of mine. This episode would stress me out a lot more if I didn't know he has plot armor. However, watching him being tortured and treated worse than dirt made me so angry. Easy Street is actually playing as torture for him, right? It wasn't just background music in the show. It's torture, yeah. Oh lord.

[01:38:25] Amber, I didn't hear Easy Street. I think this is... Yeah, what are you talking about? Yeah, I think this is a you thing. What's Easy Street? I kept wondering why he wouldn't just pretend to submit then work up the time and energy to betray the saviors or run away. But I guess a lot of Negan's... Uh... Uh... But I guess a lot of the Negan's probably did just that. And they became trapped. How many of them truly want to follow Negan? And how many of them are too scared to stand up for themselves? Mm-hmm.

[01:38:54] If everyone turned against Negan at once, they'd overthrow him quickly. But then we wouldn't have several seasons of this show. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure they'd have to find a villain that's worse. It makes me... I meant to say this during the main part, but it makes me think of any authoritarian regime where everyone in the lower ranks of the regime, they all feel threatened. And so they have to... Some of them are galvanized by the whole thing. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, this is like I finally get to just might makes right.

[01:39:23] And, you know, as long as I suck up to the higher ups, then I can be the asshole that I really am. And then the other ones are just too scared to do anything wrong. Because they'll get fired or killed or whatever. I do think we hear from Fat Joey later on where he's like, I was just going along with it. And I think Daryl is... Following orders. ...very angry about that, rightfully. Amber goes on to say,

[01:39:51] I like watching the majority of the actors playing members of the Saviors. They, some, do a great job of looking like they are not 100% enthralled by Negan. But obviously they still commit atrocities and act deplorably. This mob mentality while following a horrible leader reminds me so much of politics today. Side note. Remember, I'm a Canuck. So what we see here might be a little different than what those in the USA see.

[01:40:16] Oh, and when I talk about us versus them or what propaganda is influencing us to hate, I'm actually talking about the division between our two countries. Oh, I'm sorry. When I look at Negan's people, I try to think about all the people living south of my border just trying to survive. And I know that not everyone is bad or evil. Now, was this episode trying to show us how hard Negan tries to break a human into submission?

[01:40:42] How many of his lackeys have been beaten, stripped down, starved, isolated, tortured, and had all love and kindness stripped away? Does that excuse their terrible crimes? No. Does that add a bit of perspective? Yes. Do I have a tendency to humanize villains and make people into gray characters? Also, yes. It's definitely a flaw of mine. I think it's good. Yeah, I agree. It's been a while since we've seen Rick's group outside of the lineup and I remember community.

[01:41:11] Love, small comfort, the odd moments of joy or peace. This is such a huge contrast. I think Negan fears them because they work together out of love, not fear, and love is stronger and holds up longer. What if his people realized they could live another way? It could be a mutiny. Finally, I find it remarkable that Dwight seems to really be holding back in his torture of Daryl. He's not taking joy in trying to break him. He seems to want to get Daryl to surrender for Daryl's sake, not Negan's.

[01:41:39] And we definitely saw similar sentiments from a few other people in the community. Again, they're not automatically good because they're having some doubts, but there are definitely some hints of humanity that give me the tiniest bit of hope. Am I terrified to watch the rest of season 7 and 8 unfold? Yep. I know there's going to be a lot of horrors coming up. Oh, and another big A? Intentional? Deeper meaning? Just a callback determinus?

[01:42:06] Only on The Walking Dead would a baseball bat named Lucille be thirsty, and only on The Walking Dead would this personification of an inanimate object not be an instant call to the psych ward. Signing off from the country who is not interested in renaming Lake Ontario. I hope y'all know that when it comes to putting bullies in their place, we still want to be allies. Anyways, we've got maple leaf, moose, beaver, and a lacrosse stick. P.S.

[01:42:36] I just don't know where Amber's from. Oh, somewhere in Canada? It's hard to tell. Oh yeah, Canada. I think that's a good guess. Yeah. Have you heard of it? Uh, I feel like I've beaten once or twice. Yeah. Amber says, P.S. I tried not to get super political. I just find it so fascinating that the show came out years ago. It has so many parallels to real life. Minus the Zeds, of course. Of course. We try not to get super political too, but let me just say that I love Canada.

[01:43:06] Yup. Absolutely. Always have, always will. Chris and Jason are from Canada. Yeah. I recently visited Canada and on that day, a, a person high up in the government happened to be in Maine and they were telling people, Canada's taking advantage of Mainers. And I was literally getting this news while I was eating a huge thing of poutine. I was just like, come on, Canada, stop taking advantage of us.

[01:43:34] It was interesting that she, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Lucy. No, just say that I obviously, I lived in Canada for a couple of years and I loved it. So yeah. Go Canada. Yeah. Go Canada. Love Canada. And I want Canada to be the best Canada. Be the best Canada you can be. But I also think it's interesting that she, a first time viewer, Amber interpreted Dwight's

[01:44:01] motives in the same way that who was talking about that before. Um, Leahy Disney, I think that she, he was trying to, um, help Daryl out for the sake of helping Daryl. So yeah, maybe there's something there. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. We have one more message. It's a call from Renee. Yay. Renee. Hi, Jason and Lucy. I pray all this well. Okay. Megan, I just cannot with that man.

[01:44:30] Daryl was sitting in that cell being tortured with them playing easy street over and over and over again. And then they were feeding him dog food sandwiches. It's like, I, I just, I can't. And then he was being treated like that. And then they expected to break him and for him to kneel. Like that is not who Daryl is. Daryl is loyal.

[01:44:58] And when Daryl told Dwight that he understood why Dwight did what he did because he was doing it for someone else, clearly he was talking about Glenn. That is who Daryl is. He would die before he willingly became one of Negan's people. And this whole Negan situation has really reminded me how differently people can watch the exact same show and come away with completely different opinions. I learned a lesson with Lori and Shane.

[01:45:29] To me, that was cut and dry. I know Rick was presumed dead. Yes. But I was still his wife and Shane was still his best friend. And I was like, how dare you? We, I mean, that back door shit is horrible. Not back door, but back door. Listen, I don't like back door hoes at all. And I know people say it was the ZA. She needed somebody. Shane could protect her. Rick was gone.

[01:45:55] And that made me really realize that people really see this totally different. They look, they look at it totally different than me. So I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion and they definitely cannot change mine. I'm just telling y'all what I see. And what I see with Negan is an enslaver. He enjoys having power over people. He likes to demean and control people. He likes to take people wives and then make jokes.

[01:46:22] He was making jokes about sharing in front of Dwight. Like that was cute and funny. I did not find it funny at all. And I don't like it. And then there's Sherry. When Dwight says maybe next time, that tells me exactly what was going on. Dwight couldn't sleep with his own wife. He knew if he did, Negan would kill him and Sherry was suffering the consequences too. So Dwight clearly wasn't talking about himself. Nope.

[01:46:50] If there was going to be a next time air quotes with Sherry, who else could he have been talking about? Fat Joey. Negan. At least that's how I interpret that scene. And with Sherry being pregnant, I just don't see how people can keep pretending there was nothing going on there. Negan was a rapist. Negan is a rapist. Negan is a rapist. And then he got the nerve to call himself a savior. Savior from what? Yourself? You idiot.

[01:47:19] And history has shown us that when people are oppressed long enough, eventually somebody is going to say enough is enough. And that is what Rick and the crew, that's what they're going to do. Because they are not built to live on their knees. And when Darryl sent Dwight away and he told him, if you come back, I'm going to kill you. That's what should have happened to Negan. I just don't understand how that man is still lingering around.

[01:47:46] And coming off of Dead City, watching Maggie Fawn over Negan still does not sit right with me. I just, ugh. But let me say this. I love Alex and Ben on the Dead City Podcast. There's chemistry is everything. And Jason, like I told you before, you did your big one with the podcast hostesses. Because even when I don't like what's happening on the show, they always make me enjoy it.

[01:48:12] You know, and I enjoy talking to everyone about it. Even though I don't like it. I cannot stand Negan, Negan, Negan. He can kiss my grips. People can see him differently. And that's okay. But bye-bye. I'm still standing 10 toes down on my opinion about Negan the dick. Alright, peace and love. Bye. Bye. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way as you on this one, Renee.

[01:48:42] Same thing. Like I feel the same way about Negan, but also just try to keep reminding myself, not everyone thinks the same. It's fine. I feel like we've reached a good point with the wife arguments now. I think those are thanks to Ben's intervention and public about face. I think we can lay that one to rest. We have to take it to the rest of the fans somehow. Yeah. A class action lawsuit. Yeah. To anyone with the wrong...

[01:49:12] The people versus Ben back. Oh no. Anyone who's been harmed by these opinions. Just kidding. In her call, she mentioned the fact that Negan calls himself a savior. And I don't know if this has come up at all, but in, I think Octavia Butler's book, The Parable of the Sowers or The Parable of the Talents, I forget which one.

[01:49:34] And there's a group that comes in and calls themselves the saviors and they're doing the same thing where essentially they're just subjugating people, but they're claiming that they are saviors. Oh yeah. You know, it's something that seems like it just keeps coming up. I mean, the way things are named is often ironic when you really think about it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Go ahead. What were you gonna say? I was gonna say we're the Zed heads, but none of us are dead.

[01:50:05] We don't have Zed heads. Yeah, there it is. All right. That is our show episode 721. Thanks for listening everybody. And thanks for coming on Randy. It was a pleasure. Yeah, that was so good. Thanks for having me. This is great. Do you have any jokes left that you need to... There's one more. Let's see. Okay. What does a vegetarian zombie eat?

[01:50:35] I used to know this. Grains. There it is. Grains. Grains. Grains. Hold on. Okay, next episode, Walking Dead Season 7 Episode 4, Service. With Ben and Alex. Nice. With Ben and Alex. Assuming Ben's allowed to... Yeah, he just paved the way for future appearances. He paved the way. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Gun be me again. If...

[01:51:05] Absolutely. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts. I can't remember if I've mentioned it on this podcast yet. Actually, I'm recording the Resident Evil podcast after this, even though you will have already heard it before this, so I probably will have said it there. But Karen turned me on to Widow's Bay and I loved it. Oh, it's so good.

[01:51:33] And so she and I are going to be doing a podcast on it. It'll be on my other podcast, Wax Episodic, where I cover a bunch of different shows, but it will also have its own dedicated feed called Everything's Fine, a Widow's Bay podcast. And we're recording the first episode of that on September 30th, so it's coming up soon, like a little bit... Very soon. A week away, yeah. So that'll be really fun to dig into. I think that'll be a great show to podcast on because we'll laugh at the funny lines, we'll talk about the scary stuff, and then maybe we'll get into the mythology behind the

[01:52:02] scary parts and stuff like that. Yeah. Should be pretty good. There's a lot of homages in there, so... Yeah. Yeah. Horrible homages. Yeah. Alright, that is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit Patrick Furmoil.