47: “Did Tai Do That?” (S3E5)

[00:00:07] There's really no easy way to say this. It's about Lottie, she's dead. What? No . . . Oh my God. No, I just saw her the other day. Are you sure? I mean, she can't be. She's body. It happened yesterday.

[00:00:37] I confirmed it myself at the morgue. The coroner ruled it accidental. They think she fell down the stairs, but feels fishy. Fishy? Mm-hmm. Where were you yesterday, Misty? Excuse me? It should be a pretty easy answer.

[00:01:05] If the truth isn't pushing Lottie down the stairs. So you think that I murdered Lottie and then held a meeting here to discuss it? Something about that does feel on brand, but... Look, it's a good way to make yourself look less guilty. It definitely doesn't mean that you didn't do this. I was at work that day, and you know that because you saw me there. Yeah, and you left early, and no one knew where you went, but not before putting me on tapioca duty,

[00:01:35] where I happened to get locked in a freezer and left for dead. If anyone had reason to be angry at Lottie, it's you. None of that stuff with Natalie would have happened if it weren't for her. I had nothing to do with any of this, and you are not my friends if you think that I did. I'm going to find out what happened to Lottie. Not for you guys, for Lottie. And for Natalie, because that's what she would have done.

[00:02:07] Real jerks. Misty just stormed out of her own house. Yeah. Okay, yeah. You need to leave. Hello, everybody. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm Daphne. I'm Cassie.

[00:02:33] And this is Yellowjackets WTF episode 47. This week we'll be covering season three, episode five. Did Ty do that? And we're welcoming Cassie back to the podcast. She was, of course, a guest on an earlier episode where she and Jason and Wendy talked about Lord of the Flies and compared it to Yellowjackets. Cassie, welcome back. Thank you.

[00:03:02] I'm so excited to be here, especially for this episode. Yeah, this is a really juicy one. It'll be fun to talk about. Oh, yeah. Wendy couldn't be with us tonight. She had a conflict in her schedule, but we're pretty excited to have Cassie here as a replacement. Cassie is Wendy's daughter, and she brings this amazing perspective of being a teacher. So she's, like, used to diving into literature and stuff and talking about what it means. Which is great because I have questions.

[00:03:33] I've taught Lord of the Flies nine years, so I have answers. That's a lot of Lord of the Flies. It is. Excellent. Yeah, I have some definite questions around Coach Ben and him being a teacher and being in this situation. And that perspective. So we'll get to that. We'll definitely get to that. But yeah, definitely have some questions. We talked about this a little bit before we hit record, but we're all really excited to talk about this episode.

[00:04:03] What are your overall thoughts, Cassie? Just like a quick summary of your feelings about it. I think this is the episode that's an actual tipping point, is what I'm going to say. I think this episode, they've done something that they cannot come back from. There's a line and they've crossed it. Daphne, what about you? I wholeheartedly agree. I think that in this episode, they have pushed beyond the limits of things.

[00:04:33] And I was really concerned about Ben in this episode because I thought, oh my God, they're really going to do it. And they definitely can't come back from that. Even though they didn't kill him, they've still, they've gone way too far. And I don't think that, yeah, I think that this is going to be a catalyst episode to push us to, or push them to,

[00:05:01] places that they're not going to be able to come back from. I have to say, I agree. I think this episode is definitely sort of pushing us into the back half of the season where things are going to start happening faster and faster. And more and more demented stuff is going to happen. I was so convinced at the end of last time that Ben was going to be executed in some horrific manner. And somehow the show surprised us

[00:05:31] and did something kind of worse to him, which is amazing. Exactly. This might be a little silly, but what's your fucked up moment of the week? As if we don't all have the same moment in mind. Well, that would be my first fucked up moment of the week. I think my second most fucked up moment of the week was you were my first boyfriend and my first amputation. Was that from this week's episode? Yes, it was. Okay.

[00:06:00] And I was just like, the casual way in which Misty says this like really struck me as being so, like she honestly doesn't even, she's so far gone. It's, yeah, it's like she'd been waiting her whole life to do an amputation. And she was like, I finally got to do one at the age of like 16 or 17 or whatever she is. And it's her first one. So there's the implication. Like there will be more. Yeah. Disturbing. Daphne, what about you?

[00:06:30] Well, definitely my number one has to be Shauna and Melissa going into the pen and cutting Ben's Achilles tendon. I mean, you've got a man who has already had half of one of his legs chopped off and you are basically doing something that I think is much more torture. Yeah. Than anything else. And finding joy in it.

[00:06:59] To see Shauna find joy in it and also to force Melissa to do it. So it wasn't even just the cutting of the tendon. It was the sadistic joy and her getting Melissa to do it, which honestly, I'm starting to look at Shauna as like a cult leader in this. I have to agree. The way that it happened,

[00:07:28] any, under any circumstances, cutting someone's Achilles tendon is a horrible thing to do. And yes, they amputated his leg, but that was actually necessary and saved his life. So it was horrific, but that wasn't motivated by sadism or a desire to keep him immobile, right? This was like torment, torture. And I agree with you, like Shauna and Melissa took way too much joy in it. And the moment when Shauna pulls her knife out

[00:07:56] and like puts it in Melissa's hands and is like, you do it. I don't want you to be afraid of the bad parts of you either. It reminded me of so many like serial killer movies where there's like a master and apprentice serial killer. And like, it's funny because they're about the same age, but it's like a grooming behavior of like, all right, it's time for you, you know, young apprentice to graduate to the next level and do this horrific thing. You know what it also did is it made me think of this.

[00:08:26] Natalie has always talked about her and Travis not being good for each other. Mm-hmm. Shauna and Melissa. No, definitely not good for each other. I don't think they're good for each other. No. I think Melissa brings out this sadistic nature, this evil nature in Shauna. Oh yeah. And I don't like it. Her whole thing last week about your powerful and how she was so excited about it. That is, that is some creepy stuff. It makes me think that

[00:08:55] Melissa is worse than Shauna because while everyone else is kind of keeping their distance from Shauna, which understandably so, right? But everyone else is keeping their distance and Melissa is the one who's like stalking her and complimenting her and love bombing her. It's super weird. Yes. And specifically because of the darkness that she sees in Shauna, right? We talked about this in the whatever first episode that Shauna has been through a lot and she hates everybody right now. And that's not an irrational response

[00:09:24] to the situation she's in. And everybody's sort of walking on eggshells around her. She's always in a bad mood. She has the shortest temper in the world. She was like really mean to Mari, but like Melissa kicked it up a notch big time. She did. The old Shauna, pre-Melissa Shauna would have like been really upset about Ben being saved and like stalked off to her little hut and written about it in her journal, right? Like I hate these girls.

[00:09:54] I hate everybody in this camp. But Melissa Shauna is like, I'm going to do something about it. And it's interesting to me because I guess this was one of my points for later, but I'm just going to go into it. Melanie Linsky, who plays adult Shauna, of course, her big breakout role, her first big role was as a pair. She was one of a pair of teenage girls who became murderers and egged themselves onto horrific acts. And it's funny to have her now

[00:10:23] being the adult version of this girl, Shauna, who's egging Melissa onto a horrible act. And the two of them together are like turning into this very toxic duo. And it's just a fun sort of meta narrative about Melanie Linsky's first movie. It's called Heavenly Creatures. I checked before we recorded. It's not available to stream anywhere. So maybe get it at your library. It's a Peter Jackson movie. Yeah. It's pre Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson and pre-fame Kate Winslet.

[00:10:53] And it is brilliant. And I happen to have it on DVD. I just lent it to some neighbors of mine who were like, we wanted to see this for years. But it's hard to find. And I don't know why that is. There's got to be some legal reason. Stupid lawyers. It's definitely a very, I mean, to look at it and compare it and look at the parallels between the two, it's definitely very eerie if you think about it. Yeah.

[00:11:22] I agree with you. If you look at, you know, the first episode, I think when they're outside and Shauna is in her little like housing structure and she's writing in the journal about how bad everyone is and how bad everything that they've done is. And then you look at her now and it's just like, okay, I feel like over, what we've seen in the first five episodes is her ascent into,

[00:11:51] into being the antler queen because I truly believe she will be the antler queen. I think so too. I'm waiting for her to wrestle or bully leadership away from Natalie and onto herself like to, to push them because I just wonder how they came to the decision to do this to him. And I think that's a conversation

[00:12:20] I'd like to see. I think she insisted and they just give in because they're scared of her. Yeah. Oh, for sure. They're terrified of her. And I also think like maybe Nat out of all of them really knew the implications because I mean like I have my own heart theory about Coach but in reality how are they going to explain his Achilles being cut if they get rescued and he's still alive? Like how on earth

[00:12:50] would they ever be able to explain that? So now they've set themselves up for it because Jackie you can explain Javi you can explain the people in the plane you can explain the baby you can explain you can't explain a guy with a half a leg and then an Achilles tendon being cut. Yeah. You can. It's intentional unnecessary violence and it is it's a line that they hadn't crossed before and they're going to keep crossing lines right? First it was eating Jackie but it was like

[00:13:20] she was just basically thrown in their laps right? Like she was roasted without their Jackie was like cutting off Coach's leg when it was all mangled. It was a decision that had to be made for the benefit but then Javi was more like it's yeah it's amping up. It's escalating and I keep thinking about how Shawna you know came clean to Callie about the murder of Adam and about Jeff's blackmail and

[00:13:50] and Callie's like all right so you're a murderer and I'm an attempted murderer and dad's you know accessory to murder and she's like what else are you not telling me? Shawna's like maybe someday I'll tell you and Callie's in the same location as us emotionally where she's like what is it that is worse than murder and blackmail that you are not like tell it it must be worse than murder so it's we're starting to see it

[00:14:19] like this is worse than murder it's yes it's disgusting and and if you think about Lottie dying Shawna absolutely has it in her to go and kill Lottie absolutely has it we all know it now too yeah we've all seen it she can I do think that she's kind of tempered things down I think honestly part of her attitude is she's really bored yeah I think she had this great

[00:14:49] you know maybe not great but she had this experience out in the woods where she had a lot of power and when she came home she probably didn't have any power and that was a huge adjustment for her to go back to that because before they crashed she didn't have any power Jackie was the one that everyone looked to out in the woods she's getting a lot of power kind of if you look at like Misty when Misty realized skills she had because she overheard other people

[00:15:18] talking about how oh it's so great Misty was here she knew what to do and she felt really good about it so she destroyed the black bahucks she did something horrible to maintain it people who are traumatized and get used to a very high level of drama when they are in a situation where there is no drama that may be like a healthy position to be in it feels to them like a huge lack they can't get the stimulation that they have come

[00:15:48] to think of as normal and their nervous system feels wrong wrong and so they create drama right Misty's constantly stirring the pot we see that and when we met Shauna at the beginning of season one she was depressed you know and listless and meeting Adam and all of that woke her up and now she's like more like teen Shauna than she was at the beginning of the series and she doesn't have an outlet for it yeah

[00:16:19] and I think I think really a lot I don't know I go back and forth between the two but I think really Shauna's jealous of Callie that Callie didn't have all this trauma at the age where Shauna definitely did and I kind of feel like maybe that's why Shauna's allowing so many things to happen with Callie like why would you allow Lottie at your house at all if you're worried about her influence on Callie why are you trying

[00:16:48] to traumatize her daughter a little bit yeah or like she has a completely inappropriate idea of how mature Callie is because at that age you know the same age that she was she had to step up and be fully in charge of her life and so she's looking at Callie being like she can take it but Callie is in reality still a child and shouldn't have to take it it's complicated their relationship is super complicated

[00:17:18] it's one of my favorite parts about the show yeah it's so much more interesting than just like this woman went through something horrible when she was a teenager now she's traumatized is to see what it does to the parent child relationship and generational trauma same with Sammy and Ty right like yeah Sammy's traumatized Ty passed on to him some of the terror that she went through well and Sammy can see the other

[00:17:48] one yeah he can see the other Ty he's seen her when she doesn't even realize it so we have no idea what he's witnessed we can only guess and that leads me to a question the Ty that went to see Sammy in the park which hashtag Steve lives let's just say it yeah yay Steve is amazing which Ty was that because Sammy

[00:18:17] when dark Ty is yeah I think yeah she could remember what happened and usually she can't remember what happens when dark times yeah yeah so it's hard because I just feel like there's something he wanted to see his mom he wanted to see his mom and then she gets there and he doesn't want to see her which I get you know the

[00:18:47] trauma but I just feel like there might be something a little bit more there that's yeah and they overwhelm yeah Cassie what were you about to say I was about I was just thinking like because we know that there's Ty and then there's the other Ty we know that when they were in the woods Van was trying to bring out the other Ty so I'm wondering if Van has done something to bring out the other Ty or maybe there's not even another Ty

[00:19:26] but maybe that wasn't her who knows I I that didn't occur to me that that was dark Ty in the park it just seemed like Sammy was just afraid of her in general it's unclear we don't know what Sammy knows right yeah but he knows that his other mom is afraid of her

[00:19:57] that she was having problems before they had separated too so he's got to know she's not doing great yeah and her you know and Simone was in the hospital and he had to go stay with like random relatives and yeah I like his whole life has been in upheaval lately he must be like barely functioning honestly poor kid well and she was off with Van doing all these things with Lottie instead of taking care of her son yeah or trying to like repair

[00:20:27] her life right right yeah now she's being super irresponsible like she wants to just like leave the house and like I don't know it's you know we've talked about how she wanted to reclaim her teenage life and she's just being incredibly self-centered and self-involved about the whole thing of like you know she went to see Sam but then when it didn't work out exactly how she would have liked it to she's ready to bail like where are they gonna go and she's you know

[00:20:57] so attached to Van and spending time with Van that she's willing to murder for it like it it reminds me of Melissa and Shauna yeah very similar I was just gonna say I'm not sure they bring out the best in each other for sure not yeah yeah I keep thinking about when when Ty was at Van's house and you know where she had the video store wherever that was and it was morning and Ty comes in the room and Van was playing that song I could never be your woman

[00:21:26] and that song's on a bunch of my playlists and I listened to it today and I was like Van should go back to being the van that morning who was like you're messed up I don't want anything to do with it you could never be I could never be your woman right like you know she's she should run from Ty but Ty will chase her they have such a history too and I don't want to bring it up now but I do have a theory about

[00:21:57] Ty dark Ty van the teen timeline and what might have really happened the night of the fire all right but I don't want to talk about it yet I want to wait we'll get there we'll get there so we know that the whole well most of the premise for yellow jackets was that it's going to be a female lord of the flies and what I really love about yellow jackets is the whole after part because lord of the flies you see what happens on the island and then you can only kind

[00:22:26] of think about the implications of that off the island whereas yellow jackets we see it and in lord of the flies there's two big character deaths I'm sorry if this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read it it came out in like 54 so I can't help that but the first character death is that we think is the big one is simon and simon is this kid who often goes out by himself and he's in the woods he's in the jungle he's helpful he's got seizures and none of the other kids understand it

[00:22:56] so they accidentally kill simon in this big bonfire party thing on the beach and then the next big death that we see is piggy's death and piggy is the really helpful main character he's got the very tragic death and he's the one who's murdered they push him off they push a boulder and they hit him with a boulder and it's very traumatic and I think like chronologically we are right at piggy's death as far as lord of the flies versus yellow jackets

[00:23:25] go because again the kids have the teens have previously done things out of necessity like jackie's body and hobby they didn't technically kill him they let him die but they didn't kill him and they you know feasted upon him but I think at this point like we're at the point where we should almost be over if we're following lord of the flies so I'm really excited to see what's going to happen next and I'm really excited to see more other like parallels

[00:23:54] between the characters and the deaths and the timeline sorry I feel like I rambled no that was great it's really good I think I think you're right and it reminds me of another show that I love handmaid's tale where you know the end of season one of handmaid's tale was the pretty much the end of the book yeah and then everything since then has been this incredibly satisfying and this is what happens next and this show is doing that for lord of the

[00:24:24] flies in a way it's like yes this is what happened next and there are a lot of times that I think that the adult timeline and the long-term traumatic effects are so much more interesting than watching the teenagers go through the trauma like yeah I'm very interested in in sort of PTSD and long-term uh see PTSD and watching these women go through it has been fascinating for the last few years I love that aspect of

[00:24:53] the show too I really love the aspect of trauma that when we get a lot of trauma in something we tend to think that it's horror like like yellow jackets borders on horror but a lot of it's just straight trauma and things that they do out of being traumatized um handmaid's tale also good example pet cemetery by stephen king I don't know if we've read that but that's it's like a horror but it's all about trauma and I think that trauma just makes everything so much like it just gives depth to

[00:25:23] the characters and it makes you really think about them as real people without the sort of psychological exploration horror is just exploitative right like it's just like violence and gore it's only when we start talking about the human condition and see it through a lens of watching fictional characters go through trauma or real life characters if it's like based on a true story that horror has like real value as a narrative device it's like fear and bad things happening is a real part of

[00:25:53] life and being able to engage with it in a fictional way gives us all a chance to like practice how we would think about those problems if they come up in our own lives you know it's like oh shauna should do this that's really just you being like ah if i'm ever in the future in a situation where this is relevant now i'll know what to do i don't know that's what i think anyway i think that's part of what makes coach so relatable for a lot of people because he's the one who's like looking

[00:26:23] outside of everything and like you guys ate someone you were doing this you were doing that and so i think it's that makes him easy to like yeah he's the person who stands in for the audience who's like i would never and he didn't like remember he was inside the cabin when they were eating jackie and he was horrified that that and he was off in the woods when they when he came upon them you know a

[00:26:52] lot and yet what we saw from him during the trial that one monologue that he had talking about his life it i feel like it woke the character up for me like that was one of the things he didn't have to save them when they were getting overcome by the gas no he didn't have to save them if he wanted them to die he could have left them

[00:27:21] there and he didn't he could have left marie exactly he didn't have to do it again i don't think he started the fire i don't yeah the saving them from the gas really convinced me that he didn't he didn't start the fire yeah that was the moment i was like nope it wasn't him that's been a red herring this whole time and even when he has the hood on and he's standing against the tree waiting to be executed

[00:27:52] and he's begging them and he's they take the hood off and he's you know just telling them this isn't you none of this is who we are this is not who you are what kind of monsters have you all become exactly and he's begging them and he even says he doesn't want the hood on he wants them to have to face him because i think he thinks maybe in his head if they have to look at me in the eyes maybe they won't be able to go through with it

[00:28:21] for sure that's right yeah i mean that's the effect it would have on me that would it's too human right when you put a mask over his face it dehumanizes him exactly i think that him hearing paul's voice just before they cut him off is just that reminder i think to the audience that he has people at home that love him and he's not there like that will miss him

[00:28:51] and and gives you that connection i wish you know i wish the girls realized that he had you know that he is someone who's cared about because they don't look at him that way yeah they're kids and he's you know their teacher figure yeah teachers don't have real lives but they also don't i mean based on what he brought up in that trial like his fears were genuine i totally can get that they

[00:29:20] he was probably terrified they're gonna kill me next because i can't do anything and i can't do anything to stop them well he doesn't know that they didn't kill hobby that is true he knows they murdered hobby yeah he just rolled up as all the parts were getting put into the fire i think yeah i can't imagine sorry the meat i can't imagine what he thought they did like what did he think that

[00:29:50] what did he think happened with hobby that travis would just allow hobby to be killed travis is living the good life perma stoned that's a good life but you know i mean i don't think he's worried about a ton right now no he's numbing right it's self medicating because he doesn't have any other option for what happened with his brother oh for sure it's totally the route i would take in that situation i'd be like yeah give me the shrimps like i can't handle this this is intense

[00:30:19] exactly i don't blame him for a second it's lottie is on the other hand teen lottie is so weird about creepy little gruber she's like you need to go back in the gas and get the fish in now now it ends up saving coach's life and i'm i'm glad for that i just it tells you it's you know it's a precursor to her future life as some kind of cult leader where she's gonna you know talk

[00:30:48] people into taking drugs that give them visions and you know try to tell them what the visions mean right she's always interpreting them she's always got herself in a position of authority about them and it it's really messed up akila it occurred to me when i was watching the episode the second time that akila is the character who was bumped up from jv at the last minute right to replace the girl ali who got her knee uh yeah yeah

[00:31:17] yeah so i think akila a doesn't have like a lot of friends on the team because she just joined the team and you know she doesn't know these girls very well and also i think she's like two three years younger than the rest of them yeah so if she was jv and got bumped up she would be most likely like a freshman maybe a sophomore right so she's like 14 15 whereas the rest of them are a lot of them are seniors yeah like we know shauna lottie nat and

[00:31:47] van and ty are all seniors and jackie was so akila is in a really vulnerable position to be pushed into doing something stupid that gas thing was so dangerous exactly and that a lot she had to have had a lot of trust like lottie's even telling travis to tell her you know to talk her into it to push her to do it and reassure her because lottie is upset that she herself is not getting these messages anymore

[00:32:15] yeah and so like hearing from the it yeah yeah yeah and i but i don't think it bodes well for the power dynamic that that akila is the one who has this vision but lottie's the one who delivers the message to the group and then they all listen to lottie still yeah which means that there's like lottie still has power not as much obviously as nat but i still think she's going to be a contender if shauna tries

[00:32:44] to i guess usurp the throne i don't know how you refer to that yeah i think that there's a good chance that shauna is building support for herself so that she will be able to take power from natalie i don't know if it's premeditated i think it's more organic that she's building power and she's going to realize at a certain point that she has enough that she can go for the leadership role but i don't think she's

[00:33:14] like what i need to do is shore up my allies like i think it's happening less it's less planned yeah but i also think they really need to consider how good they have it under natalie yeah it's pretty it's pretty posh there they literally have huts and animals yeah and the first thing i thought of when we opened up the season and we're looking at these little huts on this nice little river and these

[00:33:44] little farm animals it's all gonna get burned i don't know like it cannot stay that perfect for so long it can't there's gonna be some kind of disaster or war or something that wrecks their little uh community there well and lord of the flies the whole the only reason the boys get rescued is because they set the island on fire trying to hunt a boy to kill him and so i feel like there's that might be some some way that we get them out of

[00:34:13] the wilderness the girls but yeah i mean how dumb would you have to be yeah but burning down a forest although i guess they burned down the cabin and no one came then so yeah you just have to light the fire at the time when someone is gonna see it yeah um which is not easy to do no so i want to talk a little bit more about the execution and the whole thing like first

[00:34:43] there's this argument about how they're gonna do it at shauna says you know he wanted to burn us that's appropriate for him and i love mari's like you want to burn him at the stake like an old-timey witch yeah because no matter how crazy and weird stuff is mari always finds a way to sound like a petulant teenager like there's something about her that's always kind of sassy and backtalky um and you know in that moment i remembered that she has this animosity with shauna

[00:35:12] shauna is a completely different person now than she was a couple of weeks ago though she's so focused she's like she's in charge of herself she's not even paying attention to mari anymore that petty argument that they were having is gone shauna cares only now about like ben and vengeance revenge yeah it's amazing and then so they natalie does sort of assert herself and say firing squad it's the you know the most humane i don't know if that's true than burning yeah i mean

[00:35:42] it's better than burning but i don't know if it's the most humane option of all the options they could have considered but it's at least has precedence logical and yeah clean and it's fast um i personally am very opposed to the death penalty i don't think it's ever right but i think that when you're in a situation where you are not a part of society it's harder to judge right and wrong because there aren't you don't have

[00:36:12] as many options right like life in prison isn't like a valid option for them with him as much as it would be for like us in you know modern society so i don't want to judge these girls but the death penalty i mean they could go put him back in that pit they could i mean they could put him in the pit and that could be the prison for him yeah that would be a really effective he couldn't get out i mean he's already penned up with the meat so

[00:36:42] yeah yeah he's in a jail with birds i think that it was really interesting that they gave him a last meal these girls are really dedicated to rituals right they're like well if we're gonna execute him and we have to give him his last meal and it should be nice and that that was like a good looking meal that looked like something i would get at like a santa monica restaurant like a cedar plank salmon with farm to table greens they bothered with a trial

[00:37:12] in the first place i think said a lot too because there's no you know there's no laws who's to say what's right and what's wrong out in the wilderness and so the fact that they bothered with a trial and then after in this episode we see that they're at least ty is trying to aim with the gun she's trying to make sure that she gets the shot which is morbid but also i guess humane better than missing and you know because she says that what if she misses and shoots his other leg off or something else

[00:37:42] oh that's right yeah that would be worse to miss like that's just torturing him with the anticipation that it's gonna happen traditional firing squads usually have multiple people with with guns and there's a line of thinking that by having multiple people all fire at once none of those people has to take on the burden alone of having killed someone because no one knows whose bullet is the one that killed the person we don't have that situation

[00:38:11] here because of course they only have one gun in which case the fire would have made it more equitable yeah they would have all had to participate in the fire and we learned that travis drew that picture like he drew the picture yeah i had assumed it was one of hobby's pictures yeah and he called it the outcome and so i'm like is he still seeing visions or what what's going on like why did he draw that

[00:38:41] as the outcome and it the picture could be interpreted so many ways that picture could completely be what the scene was after travis pushed ben out of the way of the shot and ben was lying on the ground and travis akila and lottie had just arrived right so there was like three people and somebody on the ground so the the picture still applies it's like it's so vague as to be meaningless yeah i mean i thought it was they were gonna bear kill him and bury him

[00:39:10] with the others like i think that's another interpretation of it that you saw all the bodies yeah yeah i think yeah there's so many different ways of looking at it during the card drawing scene where they you know draw to see who's gonna have to be the one to shoot him i noticed first of all that misty was not in the card draw did they just decide to exempt her from it because they knew you know she defended him

[00:39:40] and she used to be in love with him and it's just like too cruel to ask misty to be the one or like why wasn't she in the circle if i had to guess they would call it a conflict of interest yeah right yeah that makes sense and also i don't think misty would be willing to do it like i just don't i think she'd refuse she's not gonna stop anyone else but yeah i don't think she could go through with it with with not with coach and so ty is chosen and i went back and watched her pick her card a bunch

[00:40:10] of times and van kind of makes a face at her but i couldn't tell if it was like oh no that means van knew she picked the king or it's just a face she was making sometimes i think i read too much we all read too much into like tiny moments on the show because we're trying to figure out where it's going and i'm like is that an expression that means something or is that just an expression it's really funny and i will bring up my point now about what i think could have happened the night of the fire

[00:40:38] sure i think there have been different points where van's expression has just made me think she knows more than what she's letting on because we already know that dark tie doesn't remember things like tie doesn't remember things that dark tie does right i honestly have to wonder if thaisa didn't set the fire she doesn't remember it but van saw her

[00:41:07] do it it's possible there was that moment when they were in the woods looking for mari and ty said something like you know who else could have done it about the fire about coach i guess and van like tilts her head and looks at her like really seriously and i interpreted that as it could have been dark tie but not necessarily as i know it was you and i'm just keeping it a secret because i

[00:41:36] think right i think that she would either tell her or not give any indication not do something in the middle yeah i don't think i mean there's just something about the way that van was just so as soon as it vote guilty if you think he did it she voted guilty right away and i know that she's supporting thaisa but

[00:42:04] it just seemed i don't know i just i think there's more there because i do not believe that coach did it i now want to figure out who did yeah me too and i think that thaisa is someone who could be responsible for it remember we still don't know who um like somebody was stealing meat and also there was some other thing that something with the poop bucket right that they were what was the girl who's

[00:42:33] the girl who misty christian crystal christian crystal christian and then she went to find her body and it wasn't there right and we haven't seen it since so like i don't i don't know how that would be possible but i almost feel like they want to be nodding towards that maybe because otherwise why haven't we found her body but when when she fell down the mountain and misty ran down there and tried to do cpr like blood was

[00:43:03] coming out of her mouth yeah i'm like yeah i think she's dead like i think she's dead but then what happened but maybe it's whoever had her body or because her body got moved for sure like it wasn't there i've been saying for a long time that there's another person out there in the woods with them like i really think that there's gonna be some like wackadoo like i don't know like nell character who's been living in the woods this whole time well so that's like the all my ultimate theory is

[00:43:32] the mind theory oh that there's a mine and somebody's so so you know the symbol that they keep finding drawn on stuff i think it's a symbol for a an old mining system that they were trying to find branches to and it got all this poisonous hallucinogenic gas in it so it was abandoned and there's probably some old miner out there still hunting around the woods because we know that cabin daddy whoever he was he was out there at least for some time yeah there's

[00:44:02] somebody else i mean javi made a mention of another person it seemed like ben was talking to someone but maybe it was just himself or maybe it was paul it's all there's all these little tiny clues but we don't have anything solid to go on yeah i think he's hearing voices from a mine shaft or something but i that's like totally nonsensical it's just my tinfoil hat theory i mean at this point every theory is is a talent this show is bonkers so there's no telling what direction

[00:44:32] it will go in i thought that van's idea though to summon dark tie to actually pull the trigger was a good one like it is a way to protect tie from this trauma and at the last minute when tie was getting ready to shoot it did seem like dark tie took over her face changed yeah and she was like and she said in like a deeper voice it'll be all right and van was like tie and like kind of seemed to recognize it but then everything happened so

[00:45:01] fast that we don't have confirmation that that was dark tie but i i thought it was yeah it i think it was too because of the comment that she made too like i think yeah i think she's like i'm here to take care of this don't worry about it oh yeah it'll be all right yeah her saying it'll be all right she's the switch flipped it reminded me of when lottie had her vision when she said we won't be

[00:45:30] hungry long it was kind of like the same affect yeah so for the people who think that something supernatural is happening there this seems like the wilderness occasionally possesses one girl and it can be it's a way it was lottie and it can be tie and like sends them messages that's like the supernatural interpretation of what's happening and that's why i think that them trying to summon dark tie is a terrible idea

[00:46:00] yes i agree like like i don't i don't care about ties i guess mental health if we're if we're literally trying to summon dark spirits because i feel like that's what van's doing and she even acknowledges that that's what they're trying to do yeah and i just feel like that's never a good thing don't dabble in the spirits don't read the latin don't do any of that uh one of the other shows that i podcast about is um

[00:46:29] buffy the vampire slayer and it's been off angel and there are so many episodes of that series where somebody has a human problem that they try to solve with magic and it blows up in their face and it it's just it just seems like that's a good lesson in general like don't try to solve your problems with magic because magic is just too powerful for that and too uncontrollable if there is magic going on in yellow jackets

[00:46:56] i i i will be um i'll eat a hat or something because i've been pretty sure all along that it's just the girls and their own heads that is creating everything it's just them and ty even did ty say it last season like towards the end i think there was a scene maybe i'm misremembering i thought there was a scene where they were trying to talk about something that had happened and ty was like it was

[00:47:24] just us right yeah or no it was um i know shauna said it she said it was just us there was never anything out there when they were up at lottie's compound oh yes that's what i'm thinking i have no idea why i thought it was ty yeah and that is also like i thought a pretty direct nod to lord of the flies because the character simon before he's killed in this beach frenzy um they're talking about the this idea of a beast on the

[00:47:52] island and in lord of the flies they think there's this beast on the island because they've seen a beast in the trees stalking them and in reality the beast is the body of a dead pilot who parachuted onto the island and his dead body's been stuck in these trees so the kids do see a beast but we know as the audience that they're just seeing a dead body so simon when they're all talking about where is the beast do we hunt the beast down simon says maybe it's only us maybe it's just us because it was them it was their imaginations the entire

[00:48:21] time yeah it is very similar i gotta finish that book i have you got to also at the execution natalie takes off the necklace and puts it on ben she she's been wearing it i guess ever since that day when shauna put it on her when she was the queen of hearts person yeah the day that javi died and she gives it to ben i did not track what happened to it from there whether or not ben was still had it on at the end of the episode

[00:48:49] nobody took it from him at least we didn't see it so i'd have to go back and watch to see i don't think we can see it at the end but i don't think it might i don't think that's on purpose or not i think it's just because it's dark and all the clothing is bundled up yeah he has that giant beard like it would be so hard to see the necklace on him unless they made a point of showing it to us yeah and it's weird how that necklace is like it's shifting in its symbolism

[00:49:20] yeah in that it because it was jackie's first right yeah so jackie it's jackie's and then it's shauna's and then it jackie's again was jackie wearing it at any point in the wilderness though when she died she was wearing it yeah she died and then it yeah so it's it's just interesting and then it's also interesting because they kept it yeah like lottie still had it all these years later and and i love shauna's reaction when

[00:49:49] she sees it on callie's neck and just the immediate like get the fuck out of my house like i that was a pure mom reaction to me and also a pure trauma response like she sees it and she's immediately like done yeah and the rage that she showed reminded me a lot of young shauna like the rage that we've seen from her recently well remember she she beat lottie almost to death yeah shauna is capable of deep violence like

[00:50:18] she's she's a scary person and several characters have said we're all afraid of shauna we're afraid of shauna we're afraid of your mom like that there's got to be even more coming that we haven't seen yet because what we've seen is enough to be like yeah your mom was scary back in the day but like they're all still to this day terrified of her i want to know what what else she does because it's got to be something really dark i do it has to

[00:50:48] i do think that misty to me in the adult timeline does not seem afraid of her i don't think she does and i'm actually kind of not normal no that's true that is true but i don't think that she's afraid of her i'm not sure why because everyone else is afraid of her and teen misty's afraid of her so i'm wondering if something happens to shift that um or if it's just between them yeah

[00:51:17] teen misty is also like arguably insane although the rest of the misty yeah but i feel like everyone just not everyone because we obviously know but like it's like all of her friends and all the people she knows just think that she's like weird and annoying and intense or but like they don't understand that she's like really ill she's really messed up in her brain and she got to the wilderness like that nobody ever gets close to her walter is the only person

[00:51:47] who's ever intentionally gotten close to misty as far as we know right and it's like you don't want to side with him but he does make some points about you know her friends oh yeah he's not wrong she and shauna are not friends and i don't think they've ever been friends and misty trying to force a friendship there and then being deeply offended when shauna didn't like wasn't her like bosom buddy is very on brand for misty

[00:52:14] and also kind of insane right she's like i stalked you and i you know manipulated you and you didn't love me how dare you accuse me of messing with your car when you know that i messed with natalie's car like it's it i don't think misty like we know that she killed the emergency box the transmitter the emergency transmitter we know that she destroyed it but none of the other girls know that

[00:52:44] that we know of yeah they all still hate her and it seems like they have a lot they still have all this teenage girls have a lot of hatred towards her still over the drugging incident but we see that they're kind of like giving her a little bit of respect back during this i think they've all at various times acknowledged her immense amount of capabilities right like she she's incredibly valuable out there in the wilderness she has a lot of knowledge and skills that they rely on

[00:53:14] but all of them i think at the same time in their head are like and we all saw her trip coach scott to like teach him a lesson like that's all that's also in their head whenever they're dealing with her so it's like this horrible like you know mixed emotion strange bedfellows situation where they have to rely on her but they all know that she's like cuckoo and might kill someone at any moment i don't know what word to use because i've heard that it's offensive

[00:53:43] to say things like cuckoo and crazy but i don't know what else to say about misty i don't know how else you would describe stuff like that i think if you're i think it i don't know i'm gonna get canceled i mean we're not talking about real people yeah i think when you talk about real people and you're calling someone's you know reaction to trauma crazy that's offensive but they're characters and they are acting crazy and they've killed people she's just she does crazy things penny yeah oh she does she does crazy

[00:54:13] the word crazy is the right word but i so then i try to use words like bonkers but like then that seems to belittle or sort of you know make light of the fact that she's like i mean she's kind of psychotic like she's i don't know what her specific um um diagnosis would be but i do know that that in during the first season one of the interviews with all the actors they were going around talking about their characters and christina ricci said well

[00:54:43] with misty you get a diagnosis but that's not i'm not gonna say anything more about that and ever since then i've been like what diagnosis did they tell her it was like i want to know what exact diagnosis they think that misty has because she seems to be a combination of several yeah i'd like to i'd like to be in on that i mean we know that lottie was in an asylum at one point i'm just wondering

[00:55:14] have they ever thought that misty needed to be you know i don't think so i think that people just get annoyed with her and they understand that there's something wrong with her but they don't understand how deep it goes and i think that people's like annoyance and like toleration of her makes them not want to know her anymore and i think if they did know her anymore like walter knows her like they would understand what she's capable of and they might end up dead we don't know how many people she's killed before this right we saw her kill jessica

[00:55:43] whatever her name is but like who else did she deem like needed to be taken out in order to like take care of something and i also think that anybody any of the yellow jackets none of them would ever put another one of them in a position where they would end up having to tell truths lottie got put away because third parties were involved but the yellow jackets themselves are like you know her

[00:56:13] parents put her in a psych institution when she got rescued but i don't think any of the rest of them would have ratted her out or like been like lottie's crazy because all of it's like mutually assured destruction right they all know horrible stuff about each other and so even though like shauna murdered adam the other girls like they were like all right we'll help you that's what we do we're a team still you yeah yeah and then he

[00:56:42] ends up with one of shauna's hairs but she doesn't have one of his yeah and that's definitely going to come up later i think that if they knew exactly everything that misty had done they would be afraid of her yeah honestly telling people i may look like i'm not someone to be afraid of but i am exactly and i'm really intrigued by the things that happen in this episode between walter and misty because she still is

[00:57:12] angry at him since she kicked him out of the house for air quoting her friends and telling her the truth really i mean he was telling her the truth and he's creating this situation where he's wiped the phone and he wants her to like have a mission or have a an adventure because he knows that's what she wants because he wants to win her back but i mean shauna tells him if you think

[00:57:41] that she's you're gonna win her back this way you're wrong like it's not gonna work yeah misty doesn't like people defying her instructions right and she told walter to go away and he didn't go away and so it's just making her mad and she has flipped so hard on him she went from i you know he's my boyfriend to you're hovering and bothering me too much to calling him despicable right what did you say i can't believe i let someone as despicable

[00:58:10] as you clean caligula's cage yeah part of me was like it's not a euphemism for sex but no i think she actually means caligula's cage right because caligula is her world yeah i mean really it's amazing to me how much she hates him now and then he just like quietly took that and walked away i'm so curious to see what happens next with him yeah i

[00:58:40] mean also who gets a car with a license plate not walter walter oh is that what the license plate that is what the license plate on his car said not walter because what a weirdo because i don't think his name is walter i think it's all fake i don't i don't know like if there's any deeper meaning i just like don't think his name is walter i think he's been lying about that he's not who he says he is in any way shape or form i i i did notice in his car he had

[00:59:09] this like cat hula dancer on the dashboard and you know misty's all about birds and i know the writers have said that misty is a cat and that's why she likes birds so much and so walter having a cat it's like he that's why he likes misty because she's a cat i don't know um i think that wearing gloves driving gloves to drive around in your expensive sports car with very nice leather interior is douchey oh yeah objectively

[00:59:38] douchey yeah i have to wonder if he's playing a long game with the yellow jackets well he's got all the access to all their stuff he has access to all of their dna for all of the survivors that we've seen so far all of their hair he probably has access to all of their homes i mean and he's good with computers he he's able to like hack into like police accounts and bank accounts and stuff there's no telling what

[01:00:08] kind of information he's gotten about them yeah i would be very concerned and we talked about this last season being concerned about walter in the long game because you don't really know what his true motives are and the way that he took kevin out that was so terrifying he was so not his first time and casual about not his first rodeo at all no definitely very matter of fact yeah we don't know what his motivations are he seems to really

[01:00:37] genuinely want to be with misty but for what purpose who knows right he's kind of a serial killer maybe he thinks she's the perfect serial killer girlfriend you know he wants to be like natural born killers with her or something i think he may view her as being an equal someone who can understand who he is and i don't think he truly understands who she is

[01:01:06] at this point i think he has ideas about who she is and i think he knows as much as he can about what happened out in the wilderness but there are things that he doesn't know i think there's a lot that he doesn't know and he's made assumptions and i think that misty just lets him make assumptions yeah i feel like they've all kind of just let that happen yeah when they know that they know the rumors about well it's not well cannibalism or anthropophagy

[01:01:37] because they're not the same very important anthropophagy cannibalism is the act of killing someone in order to eat them anthropophagy is eating someone who's already deceased okay fascinating i never knew that i learned that reading not the book alive about the um rugby player the soccer players rugby players rugby players up in the mountains it wasn't alive i think it was one of the actual survivors wrote a book about it um yeah

[01:02:07] there are several yeah there's yeah there's and there's a whole bit definitely is a little bit of a super nerd on this topic yes oh me too i am dying to in the off season cover society of the snow because i covered it

[01:02:36] on run for sure has he just volunteered i think she did did you volunteer his tribute yes i'd have to re-watch it oh it oh it was incredible yeah they had they had the real survivors um they did doing i can't remember what the term is they were consulting consulting yeah they were on set consulting and everything like that they consulted with the creation of the set of the plane with all of it

[01:03:06] it was as true as it could be and that's that's also like part of why i think the idea that there is no magic in yellow jackets is so terrifying because like there was no magic up in the andes they did have to eat they did eat people like they did have to do a lot of things that no one should have to do like it is a reality it's like a very very very very slim reality but like some people have actually lived this stuff and i think that if there isn't magic in yellow jackets if there isn't some

[01:03:36] kind of spirit like that makes it even worse because it's just people yeah it's people like gradually descending into savagery yeah it's human nature it kind of yeah is a a story of people losing their humanity and what happens when there are no rules and things just start getting

[01:04:06] deconstructed they turn into people that don't resemble the ones that they were before as coach was trying to say to them yeah well this isn't who you are it's once you've crossed that line it's a lot easier to just leave it behind you yeah going back and forth is painful right every time you cross that line it's painful so just stay on one side of it

[01:04:35] which is I'm so interested to see the state of the yellow jackets when they are found yeah because right now they're they're pretty civilized and now they've just taken that extra step yeah we've talked about how we'd like them to show us more of what happened when they came home and how they explained things like what do they tell people did they say they didn't but like they they had to say

[01:05:05] something right they couldn't never talk so you know they all when they were talking uh in season one to Jessica they all sort of had a pat story yeah we scavenged we starved we did whatever we could and you know it was horrible and a lot of people died and it it's um I do want to see what they said when they got back and and who they said it to and and you know the reactions of like their families and stuff I'm fascinated to know yeah like who

[01:05:34] died in the crash who died after or did they say that they all died in the crash like what did they say and how were they found too because maybe they all trek out somewhere and they're found in a totally different location and the remnants of the cabin have are still undiscovered right or there's still all the all those bodies are still buried out in the woods somewhere can I share a tinfoil hat theory that I it's not really a theory I know it's not real but I want it to be

[01:06:03] okay sure I want it to be in the future present day and they all have to go back to the wilderness and they go back and there's coach ben after all these years still chugging along I know that's not gonna happen I know I know got rescued and then he was the only one left behind because he was the only one with a sense of civilization left yeah that would be so ironic and I have to say that Ben's character did

[01:06:33] not it's really only been like the last couple of episodes where I've just been more on the Ben train yeah well he wasn't given a lot to do yeah we were always on the Ben train yeah I always felt such sympathy for him I think it's the end of season one or maybe somewhere in season two when they're talking about doing something and he's like what am I gonna do yeah because like how are you

[01:07:02] even how like he's supposed to be their supervision how are you even gonna do that for me when he didn't help Shauna when she was in labor I sort of lost a lot of sympathy for him yeah I get that he wasn't even kind he didn't even say like I'm sorry I can't really help you I don't actually know how to help like he was like and like I'm out and it was it was so dismissive and painful

[01:07:32] and I know he was wildly depressed at the time and you know spending all of his time imagining himself with Paul but it it was a really rough blow to the sort of the last moment that he had to be an adult I think that's the last time that the girls thought of him as an adult too they were like oh yeah he did not come through we're not going to you ever again and I feel so much sympathy for him because I feel like up until that point he had been clinging to his role he'd been trying

[01:08:02] like he'd been trying to tell them not to do stuff or to do stuff or like he was trying to make them get along and I like objectively how could leave someone in that position how could you leave a kid in Shauna's position but I also feel like he might have just tapped out mentally just tapped out it's so far beyond his realm he just tapped out yeah yeah

[01:08:28] I agree I think he had looked at himself probably as okay I'm supposed to be leading them you know I am the coach however he was also dealing with his own trauma of losing half of his leg and he's not that much older than everyone I feel like this was

[01:08:59] you know he had a lot to deal with in that respect and I get it you you need to step up but each of them has their own thing that they're having to deal with and I think he may have wanted to but then maybe at some point he just decided they're not gonna listen to me anyway plus this was after they had already eaten Jackie and he had witnessed that and so

[01:09:29] I think that was a lot for him to have to take in and I like in this episode before during the execution scene when he not during the execution scene but during the trial scene he had referenced all those things that he had seen the girls doing and he hadn't ratted them out and then here at the end during the execution scene it's almost like he looks at each of them individually at one point too like trying

[01:09:59] to make eye contact with them it's just very interesting and like I think it hit him even harder because he had talked about how he cared about them and then yeah right he had made himself super vulnerable during the trial yeah by really saying how he felt and pleading for his life and then it didn't it didn't help and all it did is makes it more painful that they're that they're gonna kill him because he thought he was

[01:10:29] connecting with them in that moment it's it's working tragic um I wanna shift into the adult timeline a little bit and talk about the investigation into Lottie's death um I just made a list of all the stuff that we learned so much so much yeah the the tunnel hallway staircase where Lottie uh died

[01:10:58] or was found dead is attached to this building that turns out is where she lived for years and has been for the last few weeks living with her father so that's new and you know she had a vision of that tunnel in season one and at the time we were like is she seeing something that's out there in the woods that they're gonna find what is this tunnel it's just a place she's probably seen before and she remembered it so that was like a huge revelation um misty uh blackbills blackbills the coroner gets

[01:11:28] lottie's personal effects sees the body all that stuff she collects some physical evidence from lottie's body including what looks like dark hairs i don't know what that's gonna mean um and fingernails and then uh she when she investigates the crime scene or the death scene i don't know what to call it she um finds this like scratch on the wall and we get this image of her picturing lottie's fingernails scratching the wall like and it's a pretty deep scratch on like a concrete wall yeah it's something

[01:11:58] it seems like there was a struggle or something yeah it's like something you would see if someone was being dragged across the floor and they were trying to hold on or dig in yeah um so there yeah so there was that and she sort of compared one of her evidence bags to it i assume that was like the fingernails or something like that uh she learns a bunch of information from the doorman who should not be so gossipy about the tenants of his building he's a suspicious dude come on yeah that lottie's been living there for

[01:12:28] the last few weeks with her father that her father has been ill that he's wealthy that he was a wall street titan but now he's sick um that she was there the day she died and the other doorman saw her said she seemed normal even happy that when she was a kid he used to sneak her lollipops and they called them lottie pops that's just the cutest thing in the world um her father has memory issues so then misty cons her way into the building posing as a neighbor and i really hated the scene

[01:12:57] where all the scenes in the penthouse where like walter and shauna versus misty and they're all investigating at the same time i felt like it needed the benny hill theme song it was like like a little goofy but we got some great stuff out of it we saw the receipt from the bank that lottie got last week was a withdrawal of fifty thousand dollars it was time stamped at eleven thirty eight a.m. where's that money what was the money for what's that all about and did it have any did it have anything to do with the

[01:13:27] apology that she kept rehearsing in the mirror right we don't know uh we also get have a little bit of a window for time of death because she did didn't die you know in the morning she died sometime in the afternoon after the mirror apology scene and before whatever time it was when misty checked her you know her postings and saw the dead body so that's like a i don't know 10 10 12 hour window when she could have been killed uh lottie's bedroom had pictures of

[01:13:56] them when they were teenagers from their time on the team and some of her as a little kid and nothing more current than that very impersonal space very fancy very wealthy looking um uh walter got to lottie's cell phone before misty and cloned it so he has whatever that information is the health aide or whoever she was laura who helps mr matthews was taking out two bags of trash and walter clocks that so that's going to come back somehow

[01:14:26] later he's going to go through the trash or something um walter has one of shauna's hairs yes is that all of the things i think that's all the stuff we learned um lottie's dad says something about he references something that someone like lottie did and says someone something about how someone won't see a dime if they toss oh yes he said he said i've got it

[01:14:56] written down yeah he's at lottie's death um lottie's death was an accident and already down at the station knows his foundation won't see a dime if he says otherwise right so even if she was murdered the police are not going to look into it it's going to be up to misty etc to figure out what happened to her why he wants her death to be ruled an accident so badly we don't know but probably just to like you know there's been enough scandal in their family

[01:15:26] yeah maybe i feel like something must have happened yeah because we know that lottie had that's what so i wrote down did he kill her quote unquote won't see a dime and then when i was taking all of my notes i said his earlier comment might be some reference to something bad that lottie did as a kid that they had to cover up too because we know that she had mental health issues from her whatever it is her visions her right and that she's been shoplifting since

[01:15:55] she was a kid right yeah who knows what kind of other hijinks she got into that he's had to cover up over the years or pay for and his his memory issues like play an interesting role because it could be that he's like in between two different thoughts right and and living in another timeline like when he like when he says like she died yeah yeah when he mistakes shauna for lottie he sees teenage lottie so for him it's the 90s in his head in those moments yes

[01:16:24] so he goes back and forth in time he's he's like not he's not aware of of what where he is and at one point he's like oh i have a meeting with bear stearns in an hour and i'm like i don't think you have a meeting no and he mentions that several times yeah but he probably that's probably like sort of you know every day he's like i have a meeting with bear stearns later like you know that was his life when he was on wall street and so he constantly thinks he has to talk to bear stearns and he man because when he he

[01:16:54] thinks shauna is lottie he says something like too bad i'm not one of those crazy voices in your head maybe you've listened to me about cleaning your room yes and all i could think of was like wow he's he's like he said that to his teenage daughter at one point yes yeah so he's like this isn't easy for me and lottie or shauna says back to him you think it's easy for me and

[01:17:24] i feel like somebody needs to say that to a lot of parents who are having a hard time like with a kid who has issues like yes it is very hard to be a parent of a kid who has something like that going on like schizophrenia or you know developmental disabilities whatever it is that makes it more difficult to take care of your kid but it's not like the kid does it on purpose and the kid is also having a hard time so don't vent on them like it's harder for the kids than it

[01:17:54] is for you to someone who's not involved because if you punish your kid for how hard it is on you to parent them you're just piling trauma on top of whatever the issue is it was a little heartbreaking for me when he said that I was like oh god that's gonna hurt a kid like it also brutal it also makes me think of when did they actually when did she actually start getting put on medication because clearly the voices were an issue for a while well they started arguing about it when she was little remember the scene where

[01:18:23] she kind of car accident she looked what like eight in that scene and her father was like we've got to get her you know professional help so you know probably at a pretty early age she was on medication it's pretty extreme to be on that kind of heavy medication for somebody who's a senior in high school so oh yeah you know she must have been severely ill to have had a doctor prescribe

[01:18:52] that for her and I'm I think they'd have to show us a little bit more of that as we're investigating her death because clearly like the wilderness has something to do with her death but also so whatever she was going through on her own has something to do with it as well her mental illness predates the wilderness I yeah I loved the scene with Shauna and the dad though I thought yeah that Shauna playing along with him and then hugging him was really beautiful just sort of going with the flow in

[01:19:22] that moment and also I think for Shauna it was a way for her to say goodbye to Lottie you know she was standing in that bedroom and and a lot of emotions crossed her face and I think depending on if you think Shauna killed her or not you saw grief and sort of a sort of nostalgia sadness guilt there's a lot of feelings that would be going through her at that moment whether or not she's the killer and you know she closes her eyes and

[01:19:51] she remembers Lottie and I think all of the memories we saw of Lottie were things we've seen in the show I don't think any of those was a new moment no I don't think so either I think that that when he mistook her for Lottie that was an act of extreme kindness in her to go along with it and and give him sort of non-committal answers and let him have that conversation and then the hug was very heartfelt and I I thought it was super sweet it was like one of the sweetest things we've seen on

[01:20:21] this wackadoo show it's Shauna acting very normal yeah yeah and thoughtful about another person's emotions and we hadn't really seen that really at all this season no not at all she had been at her dad's for a couple of weeks yet she went to Shauna's and said she just got out and that she had nowhere else to go exactly it's funny because um I remember when

[01:20:50] we saw the episode was it last week where she comes out of the bank and she's wearing that fur coat I thought to myself where was that in that tiny suitcase that she had like she had that one little tiny carry-on size suitcase how many outfits could really fit in there but of course she has a whole wardrobe at her dad's house yeah but we didn't we didn't know we didn't know that no we had no idea well and yeah no wonder and Shauna still doesn't know about the she lived there for weeks thing yeah oh yeah she

[01:21:20] probably stole some of those outfits but Shauna knows that Lottie had her dad's place as an option but she doesn't know that Lottie had been there for weeks she still thinks that Lottie just got out of the psych ward so only Misty got that piece of information so I think my theory is that Lottie was at her dad's thinking over and over and over again about what happened at the compound and was like there's something about that girl Callie how can I get close to Callie

[01:21:49] how can I get to know her and talk to her I have to figure out a way and she came up with that plan to like go to Shauna and pretend she needed a place to stay yeah do you think he's obsessed with Callie do you think the money was for Callie that's I mean I don't think so but I don't think so I mean so I also made a list of all the people I think of that are as suspects in Lottie's killing who also might be

[01:22:20] people who have that $50,000 now Shauna is the one who has the most obvious motive right she's she was angry at Lottie and she like threw her out of her house and she doesn't want her near her daughter the fact that it's so obvious makes me think it's not her I do think it's weird that at that meeting that when Shauna was like where were you yesterday Misty that Misty wasn't like Lottie was staying at your house what happened did she leave your house what was going on there like that

[01:22:49] information seems like something Misty would have brought up but anyway Van but then why would she be asking Ty about where she was right Ty dark Ty Walter Misty still investigate because she would want to know whether or not someone else was going to catch her Callie Lisa or someone else from the cult whomever has been stalking Shauna and or sent that package that could be two people or one person Mr. Matthews

[01:23:19] Laura the health aide Mike the doorman somebody random it was an accident it was suicide another survivor that we don't know about I didn't hear you say Jeff so I'm thinking that it's not Jeff I don't think it's Jeff because he was at the nursing home the whole time true absolutely so also not Randy but I wouldn't have listed Randy anyway no I don't think Randy could put anything like that

[01:23:51] I would I'm suspicious of Van the handshaking thing the hand well it's it's way too coincidental that she's not feeling good and then someone dies and she's feeling better and then she's not feeling good again and someone dies and she's feeling a little bit better like I don't know I have I think that Van has a good chance

[01:24:21] of being the antler queen just because I see her as being the aggressor and pursuing a lot of the like magic mystical stuff like she was fully throwing herself on the altar with Lottie like at the end of the first season she's trying to get Ty or bad Ty to come out like I think she's got a lot more to do with it than we're meant to know but I could be wrong I still don't understand why in last season at the end of the season

[01:24:50] Van wanted to call off the like psych team to come and intervene with Lottie like I still don't get what the plan was that she was like and then we'll fake chase someone through the woods and then what like I don't know and it's it's weird that that's what Van wanted and that Van and Ty did that without telling Shauna and Natalie about everything about that was weird and I still don't understand it makes me suspicious of Van without any specific reason to be I just am like that was weird what else does

[01:25:20] she do that's weird yeah I honestly don't think Misty killed Lottie but I don't think that Misty I think given what happened with Natalie and how that has affected her I don't I just don't think she could do it but I do think that well let's think about this Ty called Lottie to ask specific

[01:25:48] questions that Lottie wouldn't answer Van could have gone to talk to Lottie about it and it didn't go the way she wanted it to yeah or Ty could have gone to talk to Lottie about it and and we know that Ty has involved outside sources before because she's the one who hired the PI Jessica she's what started some of this exactly what happened if Ty went to see

[01:26:17] Lottie it's entirely possible that dark Ty popped out for just a moment killed Lottie and then regular Ty doesn't even know that happened right like she might remember that she she talked to Lottie and then left right and dark Ty like took over went back killed Lottie and then left again like there's it's it's possible that it was dark Ty wait so that's the building that Lottie grew up in right

[01:26:47] and it would have been where she was living as a teenager well they said that after the divorce she moved to New Jersey with her mother so she probably like on weekends or whatever you know like divorced kid custody split yeah but then but none of them have ever been there before to hang out with her to visit her maybe when they were teenagers got on the private plane and she said you know oh my dad paid for this and they're all like thanks Mr. Matthews and she's like yeah I guess this is what he considers

[01:27:16] parenting I don't think she spent a lot of time with her dad and her teens yeah although now that you say that it was their plane it was the plane that he hired to that crashed yeah I wonder if the money has anything to do with I mean probably not but I wonder if Lottie feels any kind of guilt towards anyone I mean over the fact that she had money and all on her family money paid for this plane that got them stuck

[01:27:46] I don't know it yeah the fifty thousand dollars is so interesting we have no idea what how much was and how much was Jeff blackmailing them for originally it was forty five or something it was I feel like it was a similar amount but that was not the same Natalie is the one who came up with that money so now that she's dead yeah like pay back for that

[01:28:15] right yeah but who knows well so the episode title is did tie do that and I think there's a bunch of different things that we could be referencing um and so as we were watching the episode I took notes about the list of terrible things Ty could have potentially done um kill slash eat the coach kill slash eat Mari kill slash eat Melissa

[01:28:45] um kill all the livestock like bad Ty could kill all their livestock and make them revert back to the old cannibalism um dig up or eat the baby because I I oh she does like to eat dirt oh that's what I'm saying that's why I'm so worried because I can't emotionally handle that I can't that's why I'm so happy that Shauna moved him yes because all I could think of was Ty going into the middle of camp when she's bad

[01:29:14] Ty and just shoveling dirt and like yeah that's disgusting oh Cassie you're really burning it yeah burning the camp down because I do think there's a possibility that she wouldn't remember she would not remember and they're not willing to say if any of them did it by accident they weren't willing to step up and say oh yeah I did it you know or stop the execution

[01:29:45] do you blame them no I mean you don't want to be on the wrong side of Shauna it's a good list the idea of her eating the baby is something that had never occurred to me and that's all I could worry about nightmares about it and I'm just I'm so impressed Cassie that you came up with something so disturbing you should be on the writing team for the show thank you

[01:30:14] if any of my students end up hearing this no you did not I did tell them about the podcast I hope some of them nurse Wendy dropped off donuts some of them I think will that's awesome and so I mentioned that she had a podcast and they were immediately googling it

[01:30:48] did she text them all I have urgent information come to my house right away and they actually did I kind of want to know how she got them there yeah I feel like she must have used Lottie but like they didn't know Lottie had anything to do with Lottie when she was like this is about Lottie when they were sitting in her living room right oh yeah I killed Lottie then called a meeting to discuss it and Van's like well it's kind of on brand for you

[01:31:18] I was like Lauren Ambrose's facial expressions in that moment were just so funny was it Van who said what do you think I killed Lottie and then ran to meet you at a presser cart yeah just all these casual you think I went and killed Lottie yes somebody did and then the hilarity of Misty storming out of her own house and them all sitting there like this door out of her own house was just really cute it was a little sitcom-y I feel like I've seen that on sitcoms

[01:31:47] before but yeah for Misty somehow it worked yeah it totally seems like something that Misty would do because she would be distracted by her anger and just not realize yeah I mean she comes right back in and is like no you guys have to leave but it it was pretty cute and funny okay so I'm getting the feeling that we're gonna continue to see the differences between

[01:32:18] two sides in the teen storyline I think we're gonna see potential split there we're kind of already starting to um I also noticed and this is really random but Chris was watching the episode the other day so I sat down to watch the end of it with him and it hit me it's like wow the people that have died in the current timeline are all people that originally didn't vote convict

[01:32:47] Ben meaning Travis Natalie who couldn't vote um and Lottie yeah and they're all on the opposite side of Van Ty and Shauna kind of so I'm like okay well I'm just gonna put a pin in

[01:33:24] it's kind of across this like ravine type area and you could I don't think it means what they think it means I have no idea what it means but I do think it's important that she was like he's I could feel him breathing like he he's alive in the vision yes that that seemed to be an important point and I had the captions on and so there were car horns honking on the other side yeah because in the

[01:33:54] distance you could see the civilization so I think it's yeah yes I think it's that she interprets it as Ben is literally the bridge between the wilderness and civilization to get them home I feel like he's the bridge between savagery and civilization and when he's gone that's it absolutely yes yeah they know he's the bridge and then they still cut his achilles

[01:34:24] ten and then they all go to sleep with him screaming they all just go to their yeah well he's gonna scream let him scream and shauna also isn't hiding her connection to melissa no they sort of declare themselves van van's expression is kind of huh huh I'm not expecting that so so I wonder how much of that is like judgment because of the switch in orientation

[01:34:54] van is kind of judgy right and she is yeah you know she's always so judgy of misty even about things that I think are not the psychotic things about misty and you know she's clocking that shauna and melissa have a connection and it it sort of looked like she was being judgy about that as well but maybe it was just a little bit of like oh I always

[01:35:34] it

[01:36:04] let Hilary Swank do that without contact it's just not going to work shauna wears contacts yeah young yeah teen shauna so yeah um sophie yeah so they would they would take care of but she's been so amazing on this show like every season she just levels up in her acting it's amazing I I also really liked the not I don't think in this episode in the last one the nods to Ella Purnell coming back for that little scene in the in the school

[01:36:34] I love her too she's great in fallout oh she is she's really great in fallout fallout is a lot of fun yeah oh do you podcast on that Jason did on the um the cast of us yeah did it oh yeah who else was with him but they did they did like one episode for the whole first season I bet if it works out with timing they'll go episode by episode for season two because everybody like yeah one so much yeah oh yeah and I think a season two is gonna I mean I've played the games

[01:37:04] so like I know some of where it's going and it's really good I know someone who works on the set got permission to upload pictures to Reddit of them doing the set in New Vegas which is Las Vegas that's cool but it just looks incredible and it looks very true to the game like some of the scenes some of the settings the backdrops are like frame by frame video game adaptations have just gotten better I feel like the last of us really started it it sets

[01:37:34] the bar for everyone else yeah it's like I can't wait for the last of us soon too it's like a month like a little over a month have you played I've seen it I know what's coming I know what's coming oh okay yeah all right we'll not say anything just saying no it's beautiful like it's a beautifully um constructed game as far as like the settings it's just amazing oh yeah I love that the series

[01:38:03] like did the nods to New England things it just made me happy and I love that it I love the scenes that they had to come up with to explain stuff that wasn't in the game like the whole oh well if you know if global warming warms up by like a half a percentage um the scene with the virologist oh is her title when they bring her in and they're like what do we do is there a cure and she just goes bob yeah that was me

[01:38:40] actual like true definition of selfless hero in that scenario because there's nothing else to be done there just yeah that's just honesty misty has a framed photo of the girls on the team in her house uh it's behind her when she's looking through lottie's personal effects she's wearing natalie's leather jacket for the rest of the episode and i i just love that a little piece of natalie is still with us because she was my favorite character yeah having her gone is is like i feel it as a loss all the time

[01:39:10] yeah that was pretty hilarious right like awesome yeah i agree and she's constantly trying to figure out what will make people like her and so she's like trying to be that she's trying to be what people want because she knows that being herself isn't gonna work because it's never worked yeah the only time it worked was

[01:39:40] with crystal yeah and she revealed the one step too far and it ruined everything so i don't think it's hard to know who misty really really is sometimes

[01:39:53] i have just

[01:40:23] a little bit of news simone kessel gave an interview to variety about lottie's death and there were parts of it that were a little bit spoilery so it will link the article in the show notes you guys can go read it for yourselves i don't want to give stuff away but there was a couple of parts notes that i thought were not spoilery and were worth reading so the question is that was asked to simone kessel was what is going on with lottie and callie lottie sees something in callie that takes her back to the

[01:40:53] wilderness she sees that she is shauna's daughter and that the boy died in season two so maybe it's callie who is the chosen one there's something intriguing to lottie about callie in her heightened euphoric mental health way simone goes on to talk about how she thinks lottie being killed on the show is premature at this point and she had like all these plans for where she thought the lottie adult character was going to go and she seemed pretty annoyed that she was killed off although i have a theory that maybe we're going to see a lot more of her in

[01:41:23] the future as a ghost or something and that was just a smokescreen um the interviewer went on to ask what is next for you i was fortunate enough to work on the last frontier with jason dark and it's set in alaska it's out in october on apple tv plus it's a john grisham type thriller i play a nurse and mother so if you guys like simone kessel look for that and then this was my favorite part in your downtime you play pickleball you've gone from the antler queen to pickleball queen how did that happen

[01:41:52] she says now lottie is dead i have time i had to become a pickleball queen i became addicted to a sport that was very easy for me to travel and play so wherever i go i look up courts and you just have to have a paddle and shoes when i was in vancouver i'd get on an e-bike and play men all morning and smack the fuck out of it and then i'd go and film yellow jackets when i was in monterey filming the last frontier i joined a racket club and played when i went back to australia i got a sponsorship and i won the australian open

[01:42:22] i now play mixed doubles and am the captain of the major pickleball league nice so random um i i did want to say that something in the article made me pretty annoyed and it was that the writer took time to point out that simone kessel was eating a salad and that she's foregoing carbs because she's going to wear a revealing dress at the premiere i'm just tired of women's diets and bodies being treated like news

[01:42:52] it's completely unnecessary to the article i know that some writers probably think that gives it color but to me it's just no diet culture and fat phobia and it made it's lazy journalism it's lazy journalism it doesn't do anything for the article it takes away from your credibility as a writer don't do it stop doing it it's unnecessary i used to teach journalism excellent i feel very strongly i can tell i love it because you know in the season one melanie

[01:43:21] linsky got all this press about like oh you're not super skinny blah blah blah and she had to deal with that so often when she's this amazing actress with this huge body of work like can we talk about her body of work and not her body sometimes come on people and then when you when you emphasize like how great it is for women with different bodies to be featured all you're doing is emphasizing the different bodies part yeah it's more tokenism like yeah just don't mention it the representation representation speaks

[01:43:51] for itself correct exactly everyone knows what they look like they're an actress yeah we get it you're not the first person to tell her that she's not skinny she knows like we all know those of us who are overweight know that we are overweight we don't need it to be we don't need it to be pointed out we're well aware like it doesn't yeah we don't need it with that little bit of feminism let's move on to some listener buzz we have a

[01:44:21] comment from Becky Anderson Becky says I just finished and I am shocked these really are horrible people that trial was awful and Shauna is so bad I am not up for coach Ben being killed I can't take it what the fuck happened to Lottie Jeff is the MVP of this show he brightens up every scene hard agree on that last yes Becky oh my gosh from a character that I was kind of annoyed with and then it's Jeff is now

[01:44:50] like I know season one great I was like why is Shauna with him he's so boring and now he's like my favorite I'm like oh Jeff he deserves better there's no book club I think that's when it all started the scene with everyone yeah the scene banging listening to Papa Roach was like was um that really hit my millennial heart oh my gosh yeah everybody fell in love with him in that moment it was so great uh we have a couple of voicemails from Jenny Ryan

[01:45:19] so um we had a problem where people's voicemails were getting caught by the spam filter so we missed a couple so some of these are going to be about episodes from earlier in the season okay this just in forget everything I ever said about Melissa being the person behind the killings forget everything anyone said about it being Shauna or Misty or Walter or Callie even you guys I know who it is I would bet my life on it being Allie

[01:45:48] it's Allie Allie's behind it all Allie killed Travis Allie locked Shauna in the freezer Allie is the one stalking Callie Allie's leaving the notes somehow Allie found out what they were doing in the woods and now Allie wants in because she always felt left out because she didn't get on the plane because of her broken leg I think this is the theory that I'm going to stick with and I really hope I'm right because it would be great okay bye oh this is Jenny bye

[01:46:17] oh my gosh Jenny Jenny I forgot about Allie what a great theory because she did want to be part of it I remember how weird she was at the reunion when she was trying to like tell oh that's amazing I do hope she becomes relevant later oh my gosh I liked her character I want to see her again she was a disaster I loved her she was wronged by Ty

[01:46:46] from the start very specifically Ty and she was right at the beginning of the show really I mean Jessica's doing those interviews or they're doing interviews about it and she's right there oh my god I never once thought about that awesome Jenny awesome and they do a good job of setting her adult self up to be seen as like clueless yeah and kind of an alcoholic she seems like

[01:47:15] like an alcoholic kind of narcissistic like oh let's talk about me and my team even though I wasn't even on the planner in the woods what if she is in cahoots with Walter I think I think that could have some validity because Walter can't be doing all this crap on his own what if she's the one that sent Adam she could have oh yeah I forget about him sometimes I also wonder if Hilary Swank might be Adam's sister because remember they had his

[01:47:45] DNA because he had like donated a kidney to his sister or something so that sister would probably want to come and like avenge him I feel like we have had in this episode the theories that we have been sharing have been like we've been really coming up with some things so yeah this is good Jenny's second voicemail hello yellow jackets fans Jenny from Saskatoon calling it's weird

[01:48:15] to do this and call after you've already discussed the episode because I feel like all the things I think of you already talk about but anyway I'm trying to think of original things that maybe you wouldn't have thought of and so one thing I wanted to ask and I didn't listen to the recap episode you did at the beginning of this season but did you discuss ever discuss the missing episode remember they were talking about they had recorded an episode and there was thought it was like about the cabin guy and it was supposedly Jason Ritter

[01:48:45] was in it and I wondered if you ever talked about what happened to that missing episode it was supposed to get played like in between the seasons anyway no word on that also I suspect the guy who picks up the card that Van and Ty drop and that guy picks it up and they follow him I think that's going to be Joe McHale or is that adult coach probably not it's probably some new random character but I feel like you wouldn't just do that without it

[01:49:15] also having be Joe McHale um I was wondering about the necklace and how Lottie says it never meant what you thought it meant to Shauna and then we see it on uh pretty prominently displayed on Natalie's neck when she's the judge so it was like we haven't seen it in a while as far as I'm aware and then suddenly it was front and center and then and now it's on Callie so we're definitely bringing it back for some reason and I'm wondering if it's actually the leader and if uh Callie's the new leader

[01:49:45] new antler queen um uh also I know that there was a person who wrote in and I thought it was really smart to be like Melissa's a red herring but I actually think Melissa might be the person doing all the chaos Melissa and first season may have been the person who uh did what like you know killed Travis Melissa's the one who shut the door on um Shauna in the freezer she's the one who killed Lottie um because something remember Jackie was like who someone's trying to get you they're mad

[01:50:15] at what what you what you did when you came home and maybe Shauna spurned Melissa um rejected her and married Jeff who knows um lover scorned anyway I don't know I would like it to not be Melissa but it probably is Melissa or maybe who knows anyway the other thing I wanted to say is I counted the names of the people you were saying there are 14 people and we know all their names so currently in the wilderness we have Lottie Shauna Van Ty

[01:50:45] Nat Misty Jen Travis Coach Melissa Akilah Mari and Britt and Robin and Britt and Robin I think are the people who haven't yet spoken but will soon okay bye oh my god there was a lot in there Jenny um the lost episode they did film it or at least part of it there was some interviews at the beginning of the season with um Bart and Ashley talking about how they still want to air that episode but there was

[01:51:14] like the writers strike and blah blah blah they couldn't get it and eventually maybe we'll get to see it they're all very good about it but it it exists it's just I think maybe it's not finished I that's the vibe I got or maybe they didn't like what they had and they were waiting until after the strike was over to rewrite they're very particular with things and I don't think that and I love that I don't think that they would air an episode

[01:51:44] that they weren't 100% happy with or that they felt didn't contribute to the ongoing story in the way they wanted it to or maybe it revealed something that they think will be more powerfully revealed after this season oh yeah yeah you know maybe it's just a timing question yeah um I like what Jenny said about scorned lover theory that yes

[01:52:12] that Melissa and Shauna maybe stick together for the rest of it and then they both get home and Shauna leaves her I'm just so curious because they don't talk to each other none of them talk to each other when they get back like immediately when they get back they make the agreement that they're not going to do any press releases and they're not going to do books and they're not going to do interviews and then they just all go their separate ways into adulthood yeah except we know that they a lot of them were at Shauna's wedding yes but I think Shauna's wedding was pretty a little bit in touch I think

[01:52:42] Shauna's wedding was supposedly pretty soon after they got back yeah yeah I think so so that was probably that might have been the last big thing that they were all together for which would then make sense for Melissa to oh let's see yeah and be pissed it's a good theory Chris Seth says Misty just took that old lady's puzzle pieces oh she does not deserve love

[01:53:11] I loved that it's so Misty like it's so it's so petty yeah it's really petty Jeffrey Jeffrey Ashton says here's the joke a pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel on his pants the bartender says hey you've got a steering wheel on your pants the pirate says are I know it's driving me nuts oh Jeff now this is bingo my man thanks Jeff we have another voicemail

[01:53:41] from our friend Steve Brown hello yellowjackets WTF this is Steve and this is gonna be for episode four I have to admit I don't episode three I had to watch that thing I mean twice at least and listen to your podcast to even understand what was going on really crazy that dream was only a six out of ten on the crazy dream meter crazy okay we're gonna have a trial Nat says but 12 angry girls and one drunk Travis yeah is there only 12 girls there was more than that so Misty's gonna defend the coach and Ty's gonna be the prosecution and the

[01:54:11] break line wasn't cut Misty's crazy young Misty is gonna defend coach and she's gonna figure out a way to prove he didn't start the fire but she's just like advising him now on what to say when he's on the stand Jeff went on wiki how to figure out how to reverse bad karma what are Tays and Van up to are they gonna just find some random person on the street to give the queen of hearts to head dress on this whole trial she swore

[01:54:40] on a deck of cards and now these questions and answers wow okay somebody needs to explain the whole sustained overruled thing I've watched so many court shows and movies I still understand a whole that thing wait Randy his DUI volunteer hours are at Misty's rest home tapioca duty you're going on tapioca duty pudding pudding oh that's a lot of words to say these kids really do know their courtroom rules and wording redirect Jeff doing

[01:55:10] bingo humor yeah no not good oh that did fake me out for a second I thought Misty really did stab her but no it was just whatever oh just nasty stealing some of that Lana's puzzle pieces oh Misty calling saying Melissa could go either way and talking about this belief whether they believe in the wilderness or not oh shipment and Taisa or young shipment and young Taisa now with Natalie on the stand

[01:55:40] Taisa just going at her Jackie just said something about what Shauna did when she got back from wilderness okay so Misty left long before Shauna got locked in and coach isn't voting

[01:56:10] oh is that Lottie what okay I don't know who what that body was at the bottom of the stairs that Misty just found and what I'm going to watch this one again also thank you Steve real quick on the sustained and overruled thing so during a trial when one party is questioning a witness the other lawyer will sometimes object to a question or a presentation of some evidence as being outside the rules of

[01:56:40] what's allowed in a trial and then the judge has to decide whether or not it is outside the rules or not outside the rules so if they sustain the objection it means yes the other lawyer broke a rule and they can't keep going down that path or ask that question if it's overruled it clear and that is lawyer talk with penny

[01:57:12] so we got another message from anna from ukraine hello thank you so much for writing in again and she says and hello again from ukraine thanks for asking i'm fine as fine could be so episode four i'm still baffled by lottie's death it's an odd one to kill one of the main characters like that not in the finale plus it doesn't make any sense yet nad's death made a lot of sense because it just mirrors how Javi died instead of Natalie oh my

[01:57:42] gosh think about yeah nice observation now was Natalie instead of Lisa it it also makes sense that she was the one who survived constantly thanks to the wilderness but now she keeps rejecting that gift from the wilderness as Thaisa said she may eventually die but Lottie's death makes no sense and no parallel to her story in the

[01:58:12] past so I'm kind of disappointed by this one as for who killed Lottie my candidates are Callie Apple falling from the tree Thaisa Walter number three Walter he is a psycho weirdo but I don't see a motive I also saw a theory that the guy whom Ty and Van tried to murder is

[01:58:50] the whole like having a stranger pick up the card and then we murder him thing was next level crazy yeah it's interesting that Ty was really leading that and Van seemed to go along for the ride but I'm now looking at Van in the past timeline I'm starting to really question some things I feel like it would not surprise me if Van is faking hesitation to get involved with all this again because

[01:59:20] in reality she knows or she believes that it works and she believes that it's healing her yeah yeah like remember when they were driving to the compound last season she was like I'm going to drop you off with you know crazy Lottie the cult leader and then you call me if you need to be rescued and then the second she sees Lottie she's all in there's no more talk of leaving so the power Lottie has over Van is is really

[01:59:50] deep I don't think Van would have killed her because I think Van loves her you know and still thinks of Lottie as a prophet or a guide I think two things can be true I mean I think Shauna really did love Jackie and she still ate her and she ate her when she was still looking human so yeah she ate that ear yeah oh man Michelle left a comment saying

[02:00:20] podcastica rocks anyway after listening to your episode three comments and thinking about Lottie grooming Callie I started thinking about Callie's name maybe you'll mention this in earlier season podcasts but I can't help but think of the Hindu goddess Callie I think that's how you pronounce it I'm sorry if it's wrong Wikipedia describes her thusly emphasis mine Callie also called Callika is a major goddess in Hinduism primarily associated with time death and destruction Callie is also connected with transcendental knowledge and is the

[02:00:49] first of the 10 Mahivedyas I'm so sorry if I butchered that a group of goddesses who provide liberating knowledge of the numerous Hindu goddesses Callie is held as the most famous she is the preeminent deity in the Hindu tantric tradition and the Kali Kula worship tradition and is a central figure in the goddess centric sects of Hinduism as well as in Shaivism Shaivism

[02:01:20] your guess is as good as mine sorry Callie is chiefly worshipped as the divine mother mother of the universe and divine feminine energy so maybe this means something or maybe not but it sure provides some clue as to why Lottie is so interested interested

[02:01:58] in Callie thanks

[02:02:32] this

[02:03:02] episodes and we know so I know so I so many nice moments in the first episode Shauna looking for Callie's stash not so she can confiscate it but so that she can smoke it okay in the second episode I have a really wild theory that I want to run by you I'm pretty sure that Hilary Swank is playing adult Melissa and that it's Melissa who's stalking Shauna

[02:03:32] is it possible that the dinner with the hotel bros was a setup did adult Melissa hire those guys to lure Jeff and Shauna to that restaurant here's what makes me wonder what was really going on there when Shauna goes back to the table after she's been in the restroom Joel asks her what happened in there what a weird question imagine that we had not seen the scene in the restroom that we just seen Shauna leave the table

[02:04:02] then return to the table and Joel asked what happened in there what a freaking weird question that would be so that made me wonder if they're somehow in cahoots with Melissa that theory may be way out in the wild blue yonder but what isn't out in the wild blue yonder about this show okay buzz buzz buzz thanks we did talk about that it was creepy when he was like what happened in there you

[02:04:32] weirdo bathroom stuff i don't i don't know what you expect to happen in a bathroom i mean other than the normal things that would happen in the bathroom yeah especially like a guy you don't know asking a woman about bathroom stuff just reads like fetish or something yeah it's just creep creep vibes yeah not good but the idea that those guys were in cahoots with the stalker is really interesting yeah again i think theory

[02:05:02] central this week that is yeah where we're at it's good it's the second half of the season right everybody's like fully revved up now i love it matt king says shauna really is becoming the most unlikable character in both eras it's a shame they let her out of the freezer great to see frozen ella pernell taunting her young shauna is a real bully sadly we know she survives is lottie dead at the end shocker

[02:05:31] i have to agree honestly i was so angry at shauna at the end of episode four and at the end of episode five and it's like i'm ready for the next episode so i can find out if i'm i don't know if my level of angka can get any higher it's so funny because the more awful stuff that shauna does the more fascinated i am by her and like both teen shauna and adult shauna i just love them and i cannot get enough of them on screen

[02:06:00] i mean i fully acknowledge that she's a monster oh yeah but like i love her anyway i just love that there is always going to be the lurking possibility that it could be her doing the most terrible thing that we haven't even seen yet yeah that she did something so awful in the woods or like something i don't know i just i love the fact that her character has the capacity to do so much absolutely and that it's all packaged in

[02:06:30] these women that are you know so pretty and like melanie linsky has this sweet voice and then she's capable of this like great darkness in her acting but yet she still has this like soft feminine sweetness about her it's an intoxicating combination all right next we have a comment from my almardini um she says it was interesting

[02:07:00] to see nat struggling with her leadership role and the symbolism of showing her struggling with the antler mask and she removes it puts it puts it aside i'm curious to know what happens after they draw cards do they actually murder the person or just run after them and see what happens like what we're tying that planning on doing what would have happened last season in the woods if callie didn't interfere we still don't have an answer there and i'm wondering if we'll get answers with coach's fate i'm assuming after the trial and being found guilty they have to decide how to sentence him and we might

[02:07:29] get some answers there as to what happens after cards are drawn i also agree that in the 90s timeline or that the 90s timeline is way more interesting i'm not a huge fan of the later timeline it just seems a mess but now we wonder how travis and lottie met their fate i don't think any of our current cast members are involved walter maybe but he seems genuinely just interested in misty i'm now actually thinking that hillary swank may be mari p.s i don't know if i ever mentioned that's my mom's name and my daughter's middle name i really wish she wasn't so shitty lol

[02:08:02] she is shitty i don't think i don't think hillary swank is gonna be mari just because i don't see enough of a resemblance unless she dyes her hair maybe yeah i don't see it i don't think that's who it is but i i love that you caught the symbolism of nat with the antler crown and everything that was a nice catch i hadn't really put that together in my head but it's it's great symbolism heavy is the crown heavy is the burden carly

[02:08:31] jackson says i love seeing jackie in these past two episodes me too it's great to see ella grunel back even if she's just like a vision yeah never get enough of jackie she's great yeah uh we have another voicemail from archmaester rennie this is about episode three okay in an episode that was full of weird things there was one weird thing that really stood out to me and that is

[02:09:01] when akila is in the vision and the llama talks to her and she says sheep don't bite in that pen those were goats they were not sheep and so i wondered if that was just an error if they wrote the script before they got the animals and then they just didn't change the line or if akila who seems to be

[02:09:30] the animal savvy one doesn't know the difference between sheep and goats or if they're just messing with us or what but those were goats bye yeah those were goats i don't know if it was talking about i thought i did i loved that scene with the llama i loved that she uh rennie pulled that i thought it was more along the lines of

[02:09:59] like a sheep like even i don't know i thought it was something because weren't they it wasn't the last thing that the llama said everything with teeth bites yeah and if it defends itself yeah so maybe the sheep were the girl yeah i thought i kind of thought that was maybe what it was pointing to and just like even the nicest girl is gonna be capable of i think it could be a metaphor

[02:10:29] like i think it's definitely a metaphor for something like for the girls probably and we haven't seen it yet but i think we will yeah that that scene is also um when akila's having the hallucination and shauna also hallucinates seeing her son on the shore yeah and it's the first time that we saw her smile in yeah forever yeah a really long time really like fully

[02:10:58] joyful in that moment yeah like oh my son i got a good there yeah yeah kind of broke my heart yeah well and it's i mean miscarriage is one thing stillbirth is another thing to be a teenager giving birth when supposedly like everything seemed to have gone fine she just bled a lot but it's not like she bled out it just seems like just like the most awful happenstance thing yeah

[02:11:29] all right jason says this episode was fun but the trial also had maybe a bit too much of a gilligan's island feel for my taste yellow jackets is feeling more and more like a goofy farce as it goes along a goofy farce with dark undertones which come to think of it is actually pretty good re taissa deciding to kill someone to appease the spirit of the wilderness so chilling and i kind of love it that the person who is always the most skeptical of anything supernatural is the one to be doing this just shows how far off the rail she's gone in her life

[02:11:59] it feels a bit like a midlife crisis where you decide to throw away the rule book and live life on your own terms rather than anyone else's except it's yellow jackets that could be murder i was a little surprised that you guys were surprised that taissa would do that i mean even in the adult timeline they're all either killers or at least aiding and killing at this point even van along with taissa secretly called off the crisis team in the season two finale that was supposed to put the kibosh on lottie's murder ritual anyway nitpicks aside the show is as entertaining

[02:12:28] as ever and i'm very much enjoying listening to the podcast as we go through it look forward to joining you in a few episodes thanks jason we did talk about um uh her putting the kibosh on lottie and how you switch gears real fast yeah yeah i still don't understand that that was really weird strategically wendy says the adult timeline was real who's done it i enjoyed it i thought they

[02:12:58] were all suspicious and i still have no idea i like the shauna walter duo quite entertaining the 90s timeline really sent me on a roller coaster ride i was certain they would kill coach it seemed like a done deal then events kept happening that changed my mind taisha not being able to muster the strength or call on bad time made me think he had a shot then when nat put the necklace on him i knew it was surely happening ben begging for his life as

[02:13:28] ty prepared to shoot him with tears streaming down her face was just awful then lottie saved him hallelujah he's going to be okay then when shauna and melissa came i was sure they were going to stab him to death but then they cut his achilles tendon which was fucking awful straight out of hostile absolutely and so he lives to see another day oof they sure know how to twist us into a knot they really do yes

[02:13:59] straight out of hostile yeah it's true i've never seen any of those movies you're not missing much no but you're missing this you're missing this type of thing it's just body horror and gore but yeah but yeah there isn't really it works yeah uh we have one more voicemail from rennie this one is about episode four hello i have my wacky wilderness theory of the week actually i have two and they're kind of opposite

[02:14:28] of each other i don't know which one i would prefer to believe if either theory one ben actually did burn down the cabin my thinking behind this is that the best evidence that he didn't burn it down is that he didn't kill mari but it's a lot harder to look someone in the eye as nat says to shauna last season when she drew the queen of hearts card

[02:14:58] uh to look someone in the eye and kill them than it is to set a fire and walk away and maybe the people inside the house you set on fire burn and die or die of smoke and tulation that's setting the fire walking away is much easier than actually killing someone so i think i still think it's possible that he may have done it okay theory two he really is talking to

[02:15:27] someone in that cave the someone in the cave is the person who set the fire and coach is more scared of that person than he is of the girls which opens up a lot of possibilities about that person and so you know don't know what might or might not happen there but that's the other possibility

[02:15:57] for someone who might have done it that coach would know about but that he doesn't tell them about because he's more scared of that person than he is of them those are my wacky wilderness theories of the week thanks runny oh my gosh i do love the theory that he is actually that he's talking to someone who's talking back sometimes yeah i think there's someone there alissa says

[02:16:26] i'm super sad about adult lottie finally when we were learning more about her on the plus side everyone is a suspect ty van shauna misty walter mystery stalker and ex cult members yeah we can't discount the cult members could be lisa i mean it could be any of them yeah it could be someone we don't even have on our radar ashley says i haven't watched this episode yet i just watched the first three episodes this weekend i have to throw this thought out there

[02:16:56] since the first episode i've had the idea that van either set the fire to the cabin or knows what happened coach didn't do it okay all right yeah so more than one person has that idea yes nice nice amazing lisa says also this is a belated comment but did anyone already mention the fine young cannibals tape that was among that stuff in the storage unit misty was clearing out that made me so happy didn't shauna say she went into

[02:17:26] manhattan to get the cat maybe she made a visit to lottie while she was there i loved the fine young cannibals yeah reference loved it yes i it's so funny because i saw the tape and i literally thought to myself oh i used to love that band and i did not connect cannibals and cannibals i just didn't it works so well with who she is her style what happened is great great reference yeah from los angeles california it's lease i hope i'm pronouncing it

[02:17:55] correct i love your podcast and i'm so thankful for your insight and the dynamic of opinions and views of your group offers to yellow jackets i started watching from the beginning and then started your podcast between seasons one and two i have one co-worker we are l and labor and delivery nurses that watches and we compare notes but she's not dedicated so when i tell you your podcast give me a chance to reflect on all that i saw in this extremely

[02:18:23] capturing plot you can only imagine how needed it was and is i'm so glad yeah happy to be there for you anywho moving on to my f'd up moment of the week was how did shauna get locked in the freezer on accident non-accident walter maybe well he was following her yeah i think that's likely but he wasn't following her until lottie was right so yeah true

[02:18:52] that we know of he's been following everybody walter's suspicious i would not put anything past him same it's always possible but then the way shauna pushed the vote for guilty against coach so messed up that was such a mistrial with the jury unable to reach a majority they should have sly tackled shauna and stuffed her mouth shut but they're scared of her and i really believe coach doesn't think he burned cabin so is there

[02:19:20] dissociative identity going on with him as well if that wasn't him in the trees watching it burn then who didn't we talked about that and we all think that we saw him standing watching but was he i don't have any memory of that i don't think i saw that there was i think there is a shot of him i don't know if you're meant to know for sure that it's him but it looks like him the shadow

[02:19:50] but i also don't buy what he was saying to mari that he didn't know that the cabin burned down i don't buy that no i think he knew it burned down the fire or smelled it or yeah yeah it's not clear how far away his cave is from where the cabin was or where their camp is it seems like at least a couple miles because it it takes them a while to get to him when mari leads them back so i assume it's i don't know i don't know how far

[02:20:20] someone can travel in wilderness like that though yeah yeah on crutches especially yeah next i have to say i've wanted to write a column many times but i'm compelled today when i hear your theories on who killed lottie as soon as i saw thaisa get over killing the man who was chosen by picking up the card so quickly i knew she was scheming she came up with a quick alternative plan and cut out so quick she barely had a chance to say bye to van

[02:20:49] talking about meet me in central park then lottie was found dead the same night ty went and stumbled into lottie she had already called her asking her what she meant by telling her and van about this and is what it wants the night lottie was taken on a 51 50 hold there must be some backstory about them meeting up and then bad ty purposely or ty accidentally

[02:21:18] killed her thank you for reading also i'm waiting for some more throwback songs like queen of hearts maybe hungry heart by springsteen that's been living rent free ever since i saw the trailer for season three with eat your heart out caption such a clever marketing scheme yeah yeah really cute and clever i love it so much thanks please or liz thank you so much for writing in and please and we're so happy to have you among us

[02:21:48] and if you thanks for all you do as an ellen deaners yeah if if we're pronouncing your name wrong or right please feel free to write in again and let us know we will not be offended we'd like to know for sure absolutely for anybody that we're mispronouncing your names let us know well that is the end of our show thanks for listening everyone next up is yellow jackets season three episode six thanksgiving

[02:22:18] canada in parentheses there's an important so i'm guessing major time jump because it's summer right now right it's like late june yeah giving in canada is late october everything gets worse in the cold so that would make sense because they're gonna they're about to get really uncivilized yep yeah right if you want to write in or send us a voice message about it you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com

[02:22:47] and while you're there be sure to check out some of our other shows like Daphne's run for your lives which is fantastic you have to sort of search through find the movies you've seen before and then if they've covered it they do such a fantastic job it's such fun listening i love run for your lives we do it from a character perspective not like a movie recap it's more like the main character and what their arc is and how things change

[02:23:17] throughout the movie for them and so it's it's just a different way different perspective than a recap so we try yeah we enjoy doing that podcastica has a lot going on now and there's a lot coming up in the future yeah march and april are packed with shows absolutely returning for their next seasons so yes it's gonna be crazy buckle up

[02:23:46] all right that is our show thanks for listening buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz fun!