49: "Croak" (S3E7)

[00:00:11] How did you hook up with the university? You don't seem like the type to have found our project on Geocities. Geo what now? Oh no, guys. I'm a frog expert. You didn't know that? Did you guys hear about those frogs that were looking for a leader? It's a true story. So Zeus, he got him a log in there, sitting on it. And they're bitching. They're like, we need a real king. Someone who takes action.

[00:00:40] So Zeus was like, fine. Got him a heron. You know what the heron did? He eats them all. Hey everybody! Welcome to our podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm Wendy.

[00:01:09] And I'm Daphne. Just kidding. Wait a minute. Oh wait a minute. I'm Jason. And this is Yellowjackets WTF, Episode 49. This week we'll be covering the Season 3, Episode 7, Croak. Croak. And we're lucky to have Jason back with us. He has been way too busy to podcast on Yellowjackets lately, but he has some time now. So yay, Jason's back.

[00:01:36] Yay. I mean, I had a bunch of shows dropping at once and I'm like, which one of these will be the most fine without me? And this is the one. Yeah. Because there's four of us, it was an easy decision, I think. But I've been listening and... What have you thought of this season so far? I'm liking it. It's fun. I feel like it's a little more leaning into the comedy. It's always been a funny show, I thought, but it's... I mean, the title of the episode, Wendy, Croak. Come on.

[00:02:06] I know, but you call this show a comedy all the time. Yeah. And I... I thought you were gonna say, it's getting darker. And I was like, yeah. No, I'm not saying it's a goofy... I mean, it is a little goofy at times, but it's varied, you know? I like... it doesn't sacrifice the really intense moments or the dramatic moments, but... I don't think it fits well into any genre. Yeah, yeah. But I'm just saying, I think it's funnier this season.

[00:02:34] I find myself laughing a lot. But I love the springy... the summery springiness of it, which I said when we talked about episode one the last time I was on. But I'm interested in the story. Yeah, I'm really liking it. I'm sad about Coach. Yeah. But I thought it was great, the storyline they gave him. Yeah. So, overall thoughts on this particular episode, Jason?

[00:03:03] I loved it. I loved the introduction of new characters. I thought, you know, that gave it some freshness and it was fun to watch their dynamic. And I was surprised at how things played out in a good way. I thought it was great. I loved it. Wendy? I really liked it. Might be my favorite episode so far this season. It's really good. Advanced the story. Keeps surprising us.

[00:03:34] Yeah. It was an exciting episode. Mm-hmm. I feel like the show's more lovable now. I don't know. It was... I wouldn't have used that word for the show before, but that's how I'm feeling at least this week. There's a lot of viewers online saying like that they're giving up on the show. I've seen a few people and there was just two episodes ago, the Shawna hate was just gigantic. Mm-hmm. And people were like, I can't even stand to watch the show because she's in it.

[00:04:04] Yeah. But I still love it. And I just think everything is so heightened that you have to sort of take a step back. Yeah. And I mean, honestly, like Shawna just being so vicious, young Shawna, I'm having a blast watching that, even though she's awful. It's way more fun to watch than passive aggressive Shawna for me.

[00:04:27] Totally. Like Shawna in her hut journaling was like, okay, that's Shawna. Yeah. Like I get it. She's angry. She's hurting. This is way more fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think people will like seven more than they've liked kind of four, five and six because the Ben storyline is over. We're moving on in a big way. People didn't like that? No. No. I think it was depressing. Yeah. Especially last week.

[00:04:57] I think it was important. Yeah. But yeah, it was pretty gloomy. Five and six, I think, got people. My favorite scene last week was when the guy showed up that we're going to talk about this time. Hi. Yeah. Hello. I'm here to rescue. What the fuck? Yeah. That's the best.

[00:05:14] And then to cut at the, at the very end of fuck. Like, and then we're like, what? Like everyone across the country or the world watching it was like, yeah, what the fuck? Like, well said. And the name of our podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about fucked up moment of the week. Jason. Shoot. I forgot to think of one. Probably Lottie axing a guy in the head. Damn. That really shocked me. No warning. Yeah.

[00:05:44] I just want to say like Daphne and Penny called that. Like when I was editing the podcast. So I edited the podcast after I had watched seven. And I was like, you two were right on. Like you said you had seen Lottie kind of, but you didn't know it was Lottie. But just someone saw someone kind of skirt off to the side. And I was like, yes.

[00:06:09] I thought that they were that whoever did that was going to like knock them out or something. I didn't expect forever. Splitting open his skull. I wasn't ready for that. And I, I applaud the show because the surprise is so enjoyable. Like being like, I didn't see that coming. It's the best thing a show can do.

[00:06:28] And I think, I mean, we'll go deeper into it, but they developed this whole dynamic of this manly guy that this nerdy scientist's girlfriend is infatuated with, you know, and that dynamic between the three of them. I feel like maybe one of the reasons why they did that aside from just making it more interesting to see these characters is to make us feel like, okay, they're really developing something here. We're going to see how this plays out. Oh, I guess not.

[00:06:58] Wendy, what was your fucked up moment of the week? I am going to like, that's such an obvious one, but I will play off that and say, Shauna's face. Yeah. After that happens was like the fucking creepy Jack Nicholson smile. Like what? Yeah. She seemed like, like finally something fun is happening. She was like, as if she was watching Yellowjackets on TV. Yeah.

[00:07:29] Yeah. Yeah. Well, mine is also related. It's the moment when Lottie started like playing around in the open skull and like putting Edwin's blood on her face. And I think licking some of the blood. I think she was licking it. That was so gross. Yeah. And so fucked up. And like, I had a hard time watching it. But at the same time, I was like, I thought Lottie was crazy before, but this is a whole new level. Yeah. Sheens or meds?

[00:07:57] She looks deranged. Yeah. Yeah. And it was interesting that, you know, after that she goes over when they're trying to help Melissa and she's like, can I help? And Mari with my favorite line, go fuck your blood dirt Lottie. And I was like, maybe they're done deferring to Lottie for a while. Yeah. But I liked how Akilah was like, maybe she saw something bad that he did. And we're like, no, he just came up and said hi. They're trying to rationalize it.

[00:08:26] Yeah. Akilah was trying so hard to give Lottie the benefit of the doubt. Yes. How I feel most people have been with all these characters since the beginning, and I have not. Yeah. All right. Well, let's move into our main discussion. Jason, where do you want to start? Frogs.

[00:08:45] The Frog Expedition. I loved the actors they picked. Edwin is Nelson Franklin, who was Nick, the tech guy in the office. And he was in Scott Pilgrim versus the world and a bunch of other stuff. I don't know the woman who plays Hannah, because we don't have any information. You can't look it up. But she was good, right? I thought she was really good.

[00:09:12] Oh, I have her name. But I did not have time to look up her IMDB because I just found the name before we started recording. They're still not listed in the cast. The full casting crew. Yeah, they won't be until Friday. Oh, that's okay. But her name is Ashley Sutton. Okay. Okay. She was fantastic. And then, of course, Joel McHale, the great Joel McHale of community as Kodiak. And I think they were calling him Cody, right? For short.

[00:09:40] Oh, well, I call him Yellow Jackets Daryl Dixon. Absolutely. I mean, he's a great character because I think he's totally a mountain man, but he's just kind of playing around.

[00:09:54] You know, he said he's got his scarf from Sasquatch. I don't think he really meant that. He's just fucking around. And she loves the mystery of it. I mean, the dynamic between the three of them, I thought was really fun, but also hard to watch for me because I hate to admit this, but I identified more with Edwin here than Cody. And I think we've all been in a situation where maybe we're with someone or at least we like someone and then somebody really fantastic comes along that they are infatuated with.

[00:10:22] And you're like, ah, you know? Yeah. And then. It's frustrating. Because they showed things in reverse chronological order where they had something. They had the frogs first, looking at the frogs. And then I think a day later or before and then two days before. So when they went back and they were all flirting around the two, Cody and Hannah, and Edwin was getting frustrated.

[00:10:47] I was like taking solace knowing that at least Cody, I mean, Edwin and Hannah would share this moment together where they found the frogs and they were all happy. And Cody was kind of off to the side, like you nerds or whatever. So that was nice. It was really fun, though, at the same time to watch Hannah and Cody, how smitten she was with him, how she was fascinated by how he got his scars.

[00:11:13] When he shoots the whatever it was, squirrel, I don't know, with his crossbow, some animal. Rabbit. Rabbit. Okay. And she's all wide-eyed looking at him and impressed. Then he takes off his shirt and she kind of trips over her rock as she's walking towards. And then she starts asking him a lot of questions about himself, which just shows that he's interested. And he won't quite answer with a straight story or a straight answer. And then when he tells the Zeus frog story, the frogs are looking for a leader.

[00:11:43] Zeus gave them a heron. The heron ate them all. And I thought, I wondered if that was deliberately sort of an echo of like antler queen cannibalism thing. I don't know. I did a very deep dive on that. Sweet. Story. Okay. I'm very much looking forward to that. And how he was a little snarky towards Edwin, like after he hurt his foot and Cody's like, Hannah, can you go get that since he can't walk?

[00:12:07] And then when they're like giggling around after smoking pot and boy, that really frustrated me the most when they started giggling around and wrestling with each other right in front of him. I'm like, God, that's not cool, man. Come on. And then they broke the machine and he says, I'll be your lifeline. So anyway, it was it was really fun, though, even though it was simultaneously frustrating.

[00:12:31] But one other thing I have to say about all that is it was interesting that they're there to study this Arctic banshee frog, which Edwin says was never actually recorded. I looked it up. I think it's not a real thing. It's just for the show. So but that scream is seems to be what they've been hearing right at night. Yeah. And it's great because it gives a non supernatural explanation, possible explanation anyway for that.

[00:12:59] Although these frogs have incredible dramatic timing because they seem to scream right when it seems like there would be some supernatural thing. And it also seems like it came from the trees. So I don't know. But a banshee in Irish legend is a female spirit who's wailing warns of an impending death in a house. I thought that was kind of interesting. So I don't know. It was just really fun. I enjoyed it. Yeah.

[00:13:25] I didn't find a real Arctic banshee frog anywhere on the Internet. But there is a Dungeons and Dragons banshee frog that is a monster and it has a powerful shriek that does various amounts of damage to players, depending on how close you are and what you roll and everything in Dungeons and Dragons. I thought that was just interesting and maybe the an intentional call out by the show creators. Yeah.

[00:14:23] In the fable. And the way that the original fable goes, and according to Wikipedia, the earliest source is Phaedrus. And in Greek times, who tells the story of a group of frogs that call on Zeus to send them a king. Why they want a king is beyond me. But he throws a log down, which falls in their pond, and it's a loud splash and it scares them. But eventually one of the frogs, like, figures out that it's not scary and sits on it.

[00:14:51] And then all the frogs sit on the log and they're all like, yay, we have a log. But then they're like, this isn't a real king. We want a real king. And that's when Zeus originally sends a water snake, but later it turns into either a stork or a heron. And there's been various versions of this story for centuries. And it's had different interpretations. And it's been used as the basis of propaganda and political cartoons that argue, like, various political points.

[00:15:18] The original context by Phaedrus is about people feeling the need for there to be some kind of laws or control. And that having no law or no ruler makes them uncomfortable. And that's sort of like the girls after Javi. And then they, you know, they name Natalie their leader. They need a leader. And then you fast forward into the 15th century and the first version that was in English.

[00:15:44] The philosopher whose name I forgot to write down said that the lesson drawn from it is he that hath liberty ought to keep it well for nothing is better than liberty. And it's sort of like a be careful what you wish for. You wanted a king. You got one. And it ate you. And I couldn't help drawing some parallels to some other political stuff going on in the real world. Yeah. And then English royalist, so pro-king, Roger Lestrange summed up the situation as,

[00:16:14] The mob are uneasy without a ruler. They are as restless with one. And oftener they shift, the worse they are. So that government or no government, a king of God's making or of the people's or none at all, the multitude are never to be satisfied. And that's just a way of legitimizing whatever any ruler is doing, being like, oh, the people don't know what they want. They're just never happy. So only the ruler is the person who's rational. The people are just always unhappy.

[00:16:44] It's sort of an excuse for royalism. And then the German theologian Martin Luther, in his well-known work on governmental authority, said that it speaks to the scarcity of good rulers. And that this is a lack, the lack of these good rulers is a punishment for human wickedness. And that this fable illustrates that humanity deserves the rulers it gets.

[00:17:10] Which is also, all of this I sort of couldn't help applying to present-day politics. Then there was another author, Christoph Muir, who had a similar sentiment in 1620 and said, This is a verse that warns that those who do not appreciate freedom are sent a tyrant by divine will. Fast forward to the 19th century, a caricaturist turned to illustrating fables after a censorship law made life difficult for him.

[00:17:40] So he stopped writing and started drawing. There is a recognizably imperial stork in one of his drawings who struts through the water wearing a laurel crown, cheered on one side by sycophantic supporters and causing havoc on the other. I don't know if that reminds you guys of any leaders. And then Ernest Grisset, the son of a French political refugee from yet another change of regime, followed the same example.

[00:18:05] His horrific picture of a gruesome skeletal stork seated on a bank and swallowing his prey appeared in an 1869 edition of Aesop's Fables. It is his comment on the Second French Empire that had driven his parents into exile. And then most recently in the 20th century, French artist Benjamin Rabier subverted the whole subject in a later picture in which the stork too has become a willing plaything of the frogs as they gleefully hop onto his back and use his bill as a water slide.

[00:18:36] I mean, I think a lot of what this story is about is what happens when these kids get out of the structured lives and they're in the wild and it's about primalness and yeah, how much they try to bring it back or some semblance of it or their own version of it. You know, whether they, like you say, they seem to always feel like they need a leader.

[00:19:01] But I think maybe the bottle that the frog is in, their instinct is to let it out right away. And maybe that's because they have been more free lately and they're just like, no, let nature be free, you know, without even, they didn't even seem to think about it. They're just like, let it go. Maybe they thought they were saving it. I don't know. But it made sense to me. It's like they don't, maybe they're not ready yet for, I would imagine, I'm just thinking of this now for the first time watching this show.

[00:19:30] But if you were out there and you were thinking, God, I wish we could get home, you know, we should get home. And then you got home, even when I go on vacation now, if I go to like an Asian country, Thailand, and then come back here to the United States, it feels more confining here. And so they might really feel like that coming back, you know, into all this structure and rules and ways that you have to be and can't be anymore and stuff like that. Obligations. Yeah. Yeah. Responsibilities. Yeah.

[00:20:00] There's also an interpretation that says that the log king is Natalie and the heron king is Shauna. Like, they all got upset when Natalie, as leader, made a decision that they didn't agree with and didn't take them into account. And so they turned to Shauna. But everything Shauna has done, young Shauna has done up to that point, is kind of terrifying. And so is she the king that's going to like eat them?

[00:20:27] Or it's the introduction of these new characters, and maybe they're going to bring destruction. It's, you know, there's different interpretations, but I enjoyed the theme of frogs. And I thought the photography of the frogs was beautiful. Yeah. I'm pretty sure the frog, at least the first frog, was probably CG, right? Yeah. I wrote that down in my notes. It was so funny when it made its way up the branch, just kind of, oh, we're watching nature,

[00:20:55] and then its throat expands, and then it just fucking shrieks right in our face. Yeah. I love that. And then the next one we see hops on another frog's back, and I'm like, oh, this is, that's what they're doing. I see. I forget who mentioned it, but one of the three said that the frogs stay frozen for seven years and then thaw out in summer for an orgy or a mating event. And so I think they threw that in just to explain why we hadn't heard it when they first

[00:21:24] got there. Cody said it, but he was saying it as a question. He was told it or something. Yes. Yeah. Wendy, where do you want to go next? I'll talk about the intense froggers a little more. I thought it was really, it reminded me of Lost when they introduced the others. Yeah, me too.

[00:21:47] For so long, you had this finite amount of characters, and then suddenly you had this other story inside the story. And it just had this other sense to it. I thought that was really good. I really liked the story that we got about the intense froggers.

[00:22:08] It also reminded me inanely of the Jumanji remake with Cody being the big muscular guy, you know, like that seemed, you know, a little cartoonish in his depiction, I'd say. Yeah.

[00:22:55] The little flirtation going on between Hannah and Cody seemed pretty reasonable until they decided to play Tickle Monster. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, that's probably. Right in front of him. They were high. Yeah. You know, so. But still. Every time somebody does, like when Lottie told Shauna to cut Travis's throat, you're like, well, they were on drugs, so it's fine.

[00:23:23] I mean, I think breaking the sat phone is unforgivable. Like they had no business opening the case or anything. The joke about calling Miss Cleo was pretty funny, but. Yeah. That should have been the end of it. And I think even. Let me let me rephrase this. I've never been so high that I wouldn't have been like, no, the sat phone is important. Don't touch that. Yeah. I agree. I have.

[00:23:52] That's a level of high I have never achieved, I guess. And while they were giggling around and smoking pot, it was Sugar Ray's fly. I just want to fly. Put your arms around me, baby. Not a lot of depth to that. Just a fun getting high song, I would say. Yeah. It's cool to hear. It was a great scene. Yeah. I thought it was cute. A couple other little things was the compass wasn't working, which was just like when Van got attacked by the wolves.

[00:24:21] And Cody says the wilderness provides. Yes. Which we've heard people, the girls say before. And we have the answer of where the stash that Coach Ben found came from. Yeah. It came from them several years before. I still quite don't understand why you would need to also build a pit to do that. Yeah. K-U-H is written on it.

[00:24:50] We don't know what that stands for yet, right? It must be their research scientist, so maybe it's the name of their group. Or university or something. Yeah, right. Yeah. And the sat phone has it on it. And adult Shauna later Googles K-U-H when she's looking up information about Hannah. I wonder if the fact that they, or at least Edwin, seemed to think that they were lost will

[00:25:20] come into it later. Maybe. Do they know where they are? I mean, Cody seemed confident that he knew where they were, but do they? Yeah. I don't know if you could trust anything Cody says. Yeah. I know. It's hard to tell if he's joking. Because his name might be Ken Chong or something like that. Or he stole everything from Ken Chong or who knows. He's probably not Chong, huh? He's probably not Ken Chong. He did have a name tag on his shirt that just said Kodiak.

[00:25:49] No, I don't know if that's his first name or. Yeah. I guess it's his first name. Named after the chewing tobacco. Which is hilarious whether or not it's true. Right. It's just a really funny thing to say. I assume that he is the bear in Akilah's vision because Kodiak is a kind of bear. Yeah. And that's where that connection is. I did like that he gets bitten by an insect because I said out loud, oh, Jenny will be happy. Because Jenny Ryan called in and was like, this is Canada in the summer.

[00:26:19] Where are the bugs? So we got a bug. At least there's one. I thought it was funny that Kodiak tried to deter them from checking out the Ben barbecue smells. But Edwin was feeling threatened and he felt like he needed to take command of the situation. And so he didn't want to take Kodiak's word for it. And he just goes off to check out those tasty smells. Yeah.

[00:26:43] So that actually, that whole dynamic of him being jealous of the other two ended up being his undoing. Because he probably would have listened if he would have had more respect for the guy or whatever. Trust. Yeah. I mean, walking directly into camp like that was foolish. They should have hid outside the light and watched for a while before they said hello. I mean, you knew from far away this wasn't a normal camp. Yeah.

[00:27:14] I thought that was kind of nutty. Yeah. I thought Edwin was adorable. And he says something at some point that he was studying something else and then he fell for Hannah. And that's why he's out in the middle of the woods looking at frogs. The frogs are really her thing. Well, he said, I was studying toad secretions like a normal person. Yeah. This is Hannah's passion is these frogs. Yeah. She's the one carrying the dat recorder, of course.

[00:27:44] And we figure out how, we see how she made the message that later adult Shauna gets. Yeah. And we know what it is now. It's them in their sort of screeching revelry after they've eaten coach. And you even hear later when Shauna's listening to it, you hear them killing Edwin on it, on the tip. Yeah. Yeah. And then this message for her daughter that she had when she was a teenager. A lot of people online immediately.

[00:28:13] Hannah could be pit girl, like immediately. Yeah, I saw that. But she's too old, isn't she? She could also be antler queen. I mean, we don't know. Right. Who knows? Right. Is she too old to be pit girl or do we? I don't think so. She's very young looking. Yeah. Okay. I did a little math. Like she had a kid when she was a teenager. And as a lot of people believe now, that's Hilary Swank's character. Then she would have to be in her late 30s in that scene.

[00:28:41] I thought she looked early 30s, late 20s, but maybe she's just a really healthy looking, young looking person. I don't know. It's possible. Well, I kind of love that based on some of the information that's been put out by the show, that this episode, I think, was always intended. Like they were building everything up to this point. Yes.

[00:29:09] And maybe points past this as well. What do you mean? Like since the beginning of the show? Yeah. Okay. So in the news section, I'll talk about this, but the scene of the people walking into camp and the fact that they are like three people and they're scientists and all that was in the pitch to Showtime originally. Oh, wow. Okay. And there's a whole thing about how excited they are that they finally got to this moment that was like one of their central visions for the show.

[00:29:39] That's cool. Yeah. And that's what I thought about it was this is really hard stuff to write realistically. Yeah. And I know like there's some criticism of the show, but like to pull all of this off and make it be realistic is really hard. And I give them props.

[00:30:06] I can't imagine like what my ideas of that would be. So I really like that. Jason, where do you want to go next? My next one's called Culture Clash slash The Hunt. So Edwin smells the barbecue and it's coach. And it made me think of when Jackie was roasted and they were all smelling it, you know, and just the thought.

[00:30:35] I won't dwell on this too much, but that's probably if you don't know any better, probably just smells good, you know, and then comes up, sees the girls dancing around the fire in their wilderness garb, whooping and screaming. And then sees the coach's head and says, what the fuck? And I just think seeing these girls in the state and seeing what they just did, that this crew is kind of a stand in for us.

[00:31:05] When we learn about groups doing things that we think are extreme or crazy or disturbing, but we don't know the context and haven't seen what led to it. And I mean, I think even now we already do probably think it's kind of fucked up what they did to coach or totally fucked up. But if we didn't know these girls and just came into it like we did with the pit girl scene in the pilot, you know, we hadn't gotten to know them yet. Then we would we would have more of a reaction, I think, like this guy did.

[00:31:34] Like, what the hell is going on here? And then we'd start a podcast and name it Yellow Jackets WTF. So I think it's really good timing for the scientists to find them right now, because you guys have kind of already talked about this, but they found them right after they did something that they can't explain the necessity for in a way that makes sense to outsiders, you know? At least not quickly. Yeah.

[00:32:02] Like maybe they could have explained everything else up to now, but not coach, especially when there's plenty else to eat around. Yeah. So that was a good time to be found because they've gone over a certain boundary at this point. When Lottie killed the guy, I was so shocked. And man, I was like, he didn't last long. I was kind of enjoying his character. And then Shauna with that look on her face and Nat, though.

[00:32:32] Nat, I just feel like Nat is so good. You know, she's such a good person. And she's like, what'd you do? And Lottie's like, they don't belong. It doesn't it doesn't want them there here. And and I just thought Lottie really needs her meds.

[00:32:47] And that I think she's just fully in her schizophrenic mania and that this her skewed perspective of reality in this remote place with nothing to conflict with it is a big part of what guided them to this point. Even though she's not the leader anymore, without her, I think things would be totally different, you know.

[00:33:15] But she's sort of led them here in a way. The inspiration for them to hunt Natalie and eventually eat Javier was that Lottie was like really like suffering after Shauna beat the crap out of her. And they were worried she might die. And they were all like, we can't I can't imagine surviving here without Lottie. We need her. And they were like, all right, we have to find a way to survive that isn't her.

[00:33:41] And that's when they come up with the whole like draw a card and we'll eat one of ourselves thing. She is the driving force of like the first two seasons of what they do in the wilderness. Also, just coming up with this idea that there's some dark spirit in the wilderness that wants things and and being very like doing things that help them because of that, you know, even in this episode when they're all listening, they're like, stop, listen.

[00:34:09] And then they can figure out where the people that they're chasing are. That's because Lottie taught them how to listen, you know. Yeah. And also Natalie has a lot of hunting experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was interesting that Nat immediately stepped into a leadership role. Like she was like, bring them back to camp. Clean the scene up because there might be more of them. Like she and they all did it. Even Shauna was like, yeah, Natalie said to bring them back to camp. And they all ran because she's so used to being the leader. And also she's right. Those were the two things to do. Yeah.

[00:34:39] Yeah. And I think they want to the writers. Well, it's just in their character that Natalie is the one who takes care and Shauna is the one who takes action, you know, but it's not always nice. And this was kind of a caring thing, I guess. I don't know. So then Cody shoots Melissa and Shauna's like tells Mari, you know, you take care of her. She dies. You die. That's the kind of leader she is. Yeah. And everyone's terrified of her.

[00:35:10] So they do what she says. Then we see the girls chasing and Travis to chasing Cody and Hannah and they're screaming. Like it reminded me of the hunts in doom coming, you know, and then kind of chasing that out onto the ice too. And of course the scene with pit girl, they're just wild now and reverting to this primal state. Like I was saying before the primal hunt and Cody said to Hannah, stick with me or you're on your own.

[00:35:39] I was surprised to Hannah after being so impressed with him that she didn't stick with him. Yeah, that was weird. That was weird. Right. I think that was a good time flirtation, not a bad time flirtation. Yeah, but still it's all about that guy. Yeah. Like his capabilities in the woods. Yeah. And right after he said stick with me or you're on your own. I didn't get that. And he was snarky. He took time to be snarky.

[00:36:03] Like this is a situation where we have to depend on our instincts and you wanting to go back to our camp makes me think you don't have any. I was like, that's a lot of stuff to say when you're running for your life. True. But she thought she was right. She thought getting back to the sat phone and the supplies was the best thing. Yeah. That's what she thought. Yeah. Yeah. But she didn't know the way. How do you find your way back in the dark? I mean, we'll see. I think that's where she was headed to. And then she decided to hide. Yeah. Because they were nearby.

[00:36:31] Because that's where they found her close to the tent. Yeah. And she catches her hair on a branch and a big chunk of it comes out. I think it was even bloody. And then Shauna found that later. And I thought this is probably how that practice started that led to locks of hair that we've seen on Antler Queen's outfit, you know? Mm-hmm. And I always thought those represented victims. So, I mean, we already know Hannah. At least we can presume she doesn't live.

[00:37:02] I loved Misty with her quick tactics on driving Cody to a place where they can trap him. She's full of surprises all the time, you know? Yeah. Smart. So smart. Yep. Then Cody falls over this cliff trying to get away from Travis and Akilah. And Travis saves him. Take us back with you. And then that's all we see of them, right? We don't see them come back. No. Yeah. That'll be next week, I guess. Yeah.

[00:37:26] But I love that he's this big manly woodsman and survivalist and whatever, because it'll be really interesting to see how he interacts with these girls. Well, it's so bizarre. How could they keep him alive when they felt like poor Ben with one leg was such a threat to them, you know? Mm-hmm. Well, it depends on how he plays it, you know?

[00:37:55] Like, Hannah kept herself alive by being like, I can help your friend. I know where this first aid supplies. And he has skills and abilities that they might think are valuable enough to work with him. Travis certainly thinks so, right? He was like, take us back with you. And Akilah was like, what are you doing? And Travis is like, he lowers the gun and saves the guy. And I bet there's going to be a lot of arguing about whether or not that was the right thing to do. I thought Hannah was pretty smart, too.

[00:38:24] It's like animals, really, where if you run from a cheetah, they will jump on you and eat you. But she just turned around and kind of gave herself up, you know, her hands in the air. And she had something valuable to offer, which is really smart. And when they came back, she had the med kit, so they must have stopped by and gotten it. And then back at camp, they pushed that arrow out of the other side of Melissa. That was well done and horrible.

[00:38:54] Yeah, that was horrible. Seeing it come out her shoulder. I don't know how they did that. And then Hannah and all of them come back. But I just thought it was interesting to watch how the different Yellow Jackets reacted to seeing after Lottie killed Edwin. And Nat seems mostly to be thinking about them, like not wanting to hurt anymore and just shocked at what Lottie did. So it's full on selflessness.

[00:39:21] I felt like Van is focused on wanting them to lead them home and also doesn't want to hurt them. She said, it's bad enough that Lottie already killed one of them and then looked over at Hannah. Sorry. Like, sorry about that. Just kind of offhandedly. Lottie wants to get rid of them, kill them all probably so they can stay out there. Well, she said him. She said it doesn't want him here. Oh, wow. So I don't know if that means all of them are just the one guy. Yeah.

[00:39:51] I hadn't considered that. But yeah, maybe it wants her there but not him, according to Lottie. Could be interesting to find out. And then Shauna wants to kill them and hide the evidence and be rescued by whoever comes looking for them, which could actually be what ends up happening. I don't think any of them cared about the people. Not even Nat? No. I think it was all about self-preservation.

[00:40:21] These are the people that are going to – these are the people that can save us and now we just killed one. That puts a monkey in the wrench. But I didn't think – especially Van and Ty. I don't think they were worried about the well-being of those two people. Only their utility. Yeah. Yep. I could go with that. But I don't know why. But I feel like Nat did care. We don't have enough information about Nat at this point and what she's feeling because she didn't have any scenes where she talked a lot, right? But Shauna said stuff.

[00:40:50] Ty and Van said stuff. Yeah. You know, her wanting to put Coach out of his misery even though he might be their salvation and all the other girls might be pissed at her for it. But she just wanted to be compassionate. I'm just getting that sense of her this season that she's more good-hearted. Maybe I'm still angry at her. Right, right, right. Like I kind of – I kind of can't – I can't give her a pass for what she did to Coach because she had so many other options.

[00:41:15] You don't get to – you don't get credit for putting him out of his misery when you created the misery. Yeah, I agree with that. But given when they're in that situation, then she maybe did the best thing that she could. It was kind of shocking to me. Like Van's first words were, we're going to go home. Like without any realization of the scene that they're in. Yeah.

[00:41:44] Yeah, Misty's first words were, he died of natural causes, which I burst out laughing. Yeah. I didn't even hear that. Yeah, so funny. Such a Misty thing to like immediately think of like strategy and what we need to position things. Like she's so – But that seems the more realistic of the whole group. Yeah. And I think Misty was running around was – I could be wrong, but was it a bone of Ben? Yeah, and she threw it behind her. Yeah, it was like a clear –

[00:42:14] She had a clean-picked bone running around with it and she – yeah, she dropped it immediately. She's very pragmatic. Like Misty's terrifying because she'll do whatever she thinks she needs to do to achieve her goals and that includes murder as we've seen. But she's very smart and she's very strategic in the way she thinks. And I have a great deal of respect for the way she approaches things. I just think she needs someone standing next to her to be like, no, killing is bad.

[00:42:44] Stop, stop. Tactically awesome. Morally, not so good. Yeah. But she – even adult Misty here, they don't even bother showing the whole thing. Like she came in with some guy that got her in somewhere. I forget where it was now, but she's like – Oh, the hotel room. Except your – you know, just look for your 1099 in the mail, sir, or whatever. Thank you for your service. Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty funny.

[00:43:09] I thought the chase scene was really reminiscent of the first episode and the girls playing soccer and how well they worked together as a team. They weren't talking to each other. They were just glances and action. And they jumped into action right away. They were fast. They were effective. They did find the people. And it was just – it was kind of beautiful.

[00:43:37] If they weren't like hunting people, it was kind of beautiful to watch the way that they work together as a team and know each other so well. I thought that was kind of cool. Yeah. I love that. The bond that they have. And yeah. I don't have anything to add. You said it great. Let's see. That's all I had about that. Anyway, so Wendy, back to you. I have more about the hunt too. Awesome.

[00:44:05] I loved it, especially on second rewatch. I kept rewinding and really getting a feel for it. It was really – like they seem really practiced. And in the beginning of this season, they were playing that tag game. So I thought that probably came into it as well. Because, you know, they don't have a lot to do there. And I'm sure they were probably doing that tag a lot.

[00:44:32] And their kind of unspoken language with each other was really cool. They scream and yell for intimidation. But then they get very quiet at the drop of a dime. And they split up and they use their torches or extinguish their torches as they're all splitting up to flush out their prey. And then they split into – they split off. They're – Ty and Van goes off by themselves.

[00:45:02] Shauna and Nat go off by themselves. And then it's Misty, Akilah, and Travis. And Travis and Akilah dump Misty right quick. Like – and Akilah's trying to make sense of what Lottie did. But I think Travis is off of the Lottie train. Travis is also the person that Lottie kind of confided that she saw multiple psychiatrists.

[00:45:28] So I think things are dawning on Travis that everything's not okay in Lottie land. I think he's sober too. Yeah. He didn't seem high at all. After he – and she just kept pushing shrooms on him every day. Yeah. He's sobering up and he – like when Akilah was trying to come up with a reason why Lottie would be like this, he was about to say, I don't know, Lottie might be just nuts. But they got interrupted.

[00:45:55] But he's – he seems like a whole different person than he did at the beginning of the season. He's sober and he's suddenly more interesting and more capable. And more to me than he did at the beginning of the series too because – Yeah. He was just kind of douchey at first a lot of the time. And he's not like that anymore at all as far as I can say. Yeah. All the anger is dissipated and now it's more about survival and practicality.

[00:46:22] So I thought it was interesting that Van's immediate response was that they're going home. And obviously there were like – most of them were like, we want to go home. This is our ticket home. But as soon as Lottie kills Edwin, Van is immediately off after them. Like she falls into line and like, okay, this is what we're doing. And they're definitely on the offensive. Van whips out her knife.

[00:46:47] Like they're just – they're so willing to go down this road. I thought watching Van gingerly release the frog and says, you're free little buddy, such a juxtaposition of her previous and I can only imagine future actions. Because Van's been pretty ruthless out here. And they discover the sat phone is broken.

[00:47:16] You can see the desperation. She's talking about calling her mother. She's really hyped up and excited and anxious. I like that she did that right away. Like, let me just do this right now. I'm going to call my mom. And if it would have not been broken, maybe that would have worked, you know? Yeah, it's been over a year. And she says, we just need to find these people so they can go home. And again, it wasn't – it's about what those people can do.

[00:47:46] I don't think they care about the wellness of those people. I think you're right. In the 90s, it would be way more likely that you would remember your mom's phone number than now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can honestly say I don't know my husband's phone number. Like, he changed it like two years ago. And I've just never committed it to memory. Yeah. But I still remember my childhood phone number. Yeah.

[00:48:13] And, you know, the phone number that my mom had when she lived in New Hampshire. Like, those would be with me probably till I die. I remember my friend Richard's phone number for some reason. Hannah buries her bag, like, near the tree log, one of the logs. I thought that was interesting. I feel like Nat was immediately remorseful.

[00:48:38] But, you know, it was still about getting them home and not about losing the life. You know, having your friend just commit cold-blooded murder in front of you. How do you know it wasn't about that? I thought it was. She said – I said I felt like it was. Oh, oh, oh. Yeah. And I thought it was interesting that Nat said, we don't know how many more are coming.

[00:49:05] And she really thinks that she can salvage this situation, you know? She really is trying to do all of that. Lottie blew it for them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And somebody at one point – and I couldn't tell where it was coming from – said, You psycho, they were probably here to help us. Right. I think that was Jen, right? I don't know. I mean, honestly –

[00:49:34] I think the whole group is going to be kind of anti-Lottie for a little bit now. But – and we also can't forget that there was Coach's head sitting there that they'd have to explain. Yeah, how are they going to explain that? And if they did nothing, if they just acquiesced to the adults in the room now, what would have happened? Because – Cody probably would have killed Lottie. And then I'm not sure what would have happened next.

[00:50:03] Are you saying before Cody killed Edwin, if they would have just acquiesced or after? I'm saying if Lottie hadn't have killed Edwin, what would have happened on that scene? They'd have to explain that, yeah. Right. That's still – they're still going to have answers then. Questions that have to be answered. I think Cody would have said run and all three of them would have run. Like I think Cody's instincts would have immediately told him to get the fuck out of there. Yeah.

[00:50:34] But that was it for me. But I really loved that hunt scene. I thought it was really well orchestrated and I liked it. I agree. Jason, I think we're back to you. I'm getting to pick all the new ones. Is that okay? Yeah. You haven't been on the podcast all season. So number three or my next one, what adult Shauna is doing.

[00:50:59] So we know that she has this tape that has Lottie killing Edwin and Hannah leaving a goodbye message to her daughter and all of them screaming and everything. And I guess that could all be used as evidence. But it also could just be a taunt. Um, but what she said, what Shauna said is she thinks Hannah's daughter, Alex got hold of this tape and is out to punish them. That's all she said. She didn't say how.

[00:51:29] Um, so apparently Shauna, I mean, I don't know if she plans to kill her. She showed up presumably at her house with a knife at the end. She, she is either going to kill her or threaten her. Um, but the whole thing with the DNA under Lottie's fingernails matching Shauna's confused things, um, Walter and the other yellow jackets think that means Shauna's Lottie's killer.

[00:51:54] And, um, I'm like, well, okay, maybe if Shauna hit her family in a hotel in response to Lottie being killed because she thought they were all in danger, that doesn't line up with her being the killer. Did she do that as a cover for a second? You think he, oh yeah, that's a good, yeah, right, right. Maybe, but, but then, you know, um, when, uh, in the hospital, Misty says this was collected,

[00:52:23] this DNA was collected from a location that's indicative of a struggle, struggle. And Shauna's like, what? Like under her nails? It's, it's like she, um, why did she say that? Cause that's the, I mean, if you watch like crime shows, that's always how they get. The evidence from. But I mean, what is she thinking? What is she thinking? What is she thinking is happening here? Shauna? Yeah.

[00:52:50] If she's not the killer, let's say, then what is she thinking? I don't think she's the killer. First of all, cause I think the show has very much set it up to look like she's the killer. And so that can't be the case. But, um, I think that would be something I would say too. If someone was like, well, we collected evidence, you know, DNA evidence from the victim, I'd be like, what? Like under the fingernails? Like that. But she doesn't seem worried about it. That's sort of, that's kind of my point. No, I think because she doesn't, she knows she didn't do it. She knows she didn't. And she's also very, very focused on this Alex thing.

[00:53:20] She knows she didn't do it. But then is she thinking, she's not like, oh shit, what? They found it under the fingernails? She's like, oh, what? Under the fingernails? It's like, it doesn't seem to bother her or worry her or she doesn't think it's weird or anything. I think Walter also took her DNA and she knows that. Like, I don't think she knows that because he did it after she left the room. But she has to know to some extent that he was fucking with her. I mean, I go back to, I can't believe that Misty doesn't have samples of all of their hair.

[00:53:52] I was. Right. Like he was just talking about your DNA. Now suddenly he's giving the news that your DNA was found somewhere. Yeah. Like that's not suspicious. It's so suspicious. I also think that the leap from Hannah had a daughter to that daughter has been trying to kill me lately is a really big leap in logic.

[00:54:17] Like it's equally possible that it's Walter trying to kill her or some other person. And, and then her, she's so certain when she tells like Ty and Van and Misty, she's like, it's the daughter. She's trying to kill me. I'm going to go talk to her. Yeah. She did say, I was going to say, she only said that the daughter's out to punish her. So it could be like a blackmail thing. But then she later said that she thinks she cut her brakes. Yeah. So yeah. She's like, she's already trying to kill me. Yeah. Okay.

[00:54:47] Then the next really weird logical leap is, so I'm going to go to her address in Richmond, Virginia to confront her. And I'm like, if she's trying to kill you, isn't she in Wyskayak? Like, isn't she in town? What makes you think she's at home in Richmond? Yeah. Like the road trip is a strange choice. And does she think that Alex killed, Alex is the daughter's name. Does she think that Alex killed Lottie? We don't know for sure what she thinks. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:14] It's all of that seemed a little like she's gone a little off the rails in terms of what she thinks happened. Yeah. But I thought it was kind of funny. I also think we don't know everything. She knows. Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out what we know or what we think. But she I thought it was funny that she kind of didn't want all of them to go with her, but they kind of insisted. So she's like, OK, fine. And then they go to the or, you know, they have to divert to the hospital because of van.

[00:55:42] And then Misty accuses her of killing Lottie. And I think at that point she's like, I didn't even want you guys here anyway. Screw you. I'm leaving. Yeah. Going back to what I planned to do today. With that awesome snarky line of I'd offer to get you a Coke, but apparently I'm not a good friend. And then she just bails. And that's so Shauna. Shauna has never shown an ounce of wanting to be friends with Misty. And it's so funny to me that Misty will be like, you're not a good friend. And Shauna's like, we're not friends. That's right.

[00:56:10] But I also like. But she'll use her. Misty sitting there saying to Shauna, you know, I realized that you're not my friend. I kind of felt good about seeing Misty stand up to Shauna like that, because especially because the way that young Shauna treats Misty and everyone else. So there was a piece of me that was like, yeah, you don't take your crap anymore. You know? Exactly. Even though you're right. Shauna's never pretended to be friends with her anyway. So what does she expect? She clearly can't stand Misty. And she's.

[00:56:39] The only time she's even a little bit nice to Misty was when she wanted her to watch Lottie at her house. Other than that, it's like nonstop, like, derision. Or help her dispose of a body. And she even mentioned that too. Like, yeah, you don't want my help yet, but you will. And you won't be nice about it or something like that. You'll be rude about it. I wrote this down. If past is. She's like, did I ask for your help? If past is prologue, you will. Late and rudely. And I was like, yeah, that's accurate.

[00:57:09] And Van's like, Misty's right. Your track record is iffy. Like, they all have this interesting way with each other of being, like, just blunt and honest because they have so much that they've gone through together that even when they're fighting with each other, they kind of know, like, we still have this bond. So they can just say these blunt things to each other's faces. And I kind of love it. Mm-hmm.

[00:57:36] And I think there are some groups of friends who didn't go through shit like this that can still act like that around each other, which is another thing I find endearing about this show because they've done some really fucked up stuff, but they're still people. Yeah. I feel like, and I know I'm going to misrepresent, but, like, my mom was one of six girls. And I feel like that's how they were. Like, they would fight with each other in a way that I would never talk to that person again for the rest of my life. Right.

[00:58:05] And then, and it was just, you know, and I think that's what it was. They had been through a lot. You know, they grew up in very tough circumstances. And they were just past all the superficial stuff. Right. And also when you're in a close relationship like that with family or whatever, and you've been through some fights and gotten over it, then I think you can even know in the middle of a fight, man, we're going to get past this. Yeah.

[00:58:35] Some interesting stuff came up on the road trip. When they stop for gas, Ty's credit card gets declined and she's all like, oh, I guess I don't, you know, whatever about it, which doesn't seem like regular Ty. That seems more like dark Ty. It has so much felt like dark Ty is taking regular Ty's body for a joyride. And she's like, let's spend money. Let's go to a fancy hotel. Let's have sex with Van all the time.

[00:59:04] Let's eat all the things on the menu. Like there's a very much of a joyride feel about it to me. And then it's like, yeah, I ran all my credit cards up, whatever. Yeah, I'm not going to pay them. I mean, Van said, how long has it been you? So maybe you're right. But I just thought, I've just thought of Ty as she is disgraced. She's been left by her wife.

[00:59:27] If she has nothing and she spent her whole life being perfect and ignoring, you know, what maybe what she really wants and doing what she thinks she should do instead. And now that amounted to nothing. So she's like, fuck it. I'm just going to do what I feel. But I mean, it's not very responsible because you can't. Hopefully she has more credit cards. But then once they're gone, what are you going to do? I think both are equally likely to be true.

[00:59:56] And it's impossible to know at this point what's exactly happening with Ty. Because we later see that Van is like hallucinating, which I said last week. I'm like, we've never seen Van hallucinate before. Well, now we definitely have seen Van hallucinate. So who knows what of what we've seen was through Van's eyes or was actually what was happening in the scene. You know, like when Ty woke up in bed and was like, Van, help me.

[01:00:24] Was that in Van's head or did that really happen? We don't know yet. I mean, I think I know what that hallucination was all about. I mean, for one thing, do we call it dark Ty? Is it OK? Yeah, that's what everybody's saying. She's always like this, you know, and Ty's not acting like that. But I don't know. Maybe that doesn't matter. But maybe she's getting better at pretending to be. Yes, could be.

[01:00:54] But the whole thing is. Well, I don't I don't. I feel like I'll be going into another point if I start talking about Ty and Van. But yeah, I'll save it. The other interesting things that came out in the car were the DNA thing from Walter, which I don't trust. Ty said Jen and Melissa got pretty close to Hannah. And then Van's like, yeah, but they're both dead. And then I love that the camera goes to Shauna and she like sort of gives side eye in response to that they're both dead.

[01:01:21] And I'm like, does that mean she's like thinking about how she was close to Melissa? Or does that mean she knows something that Melissa is alive that we don't know? Who knows? When Shauna was first describing the tape to the other Yellow Jackets, I thought it was so weird the way she described it. She's like one of those people recorded a message on it for her kid. And then later they're all talking about Hannah like they they knew her a little bit. And I'm like, why would you say it like that? Yeah, because they said she got close to Jen and Melissa.

[01:01:49] So she had enough time to get close to people. So I thought it was weird that she was like one of those people recorded a message. Like I was like, why didn't you just say Hannah recorded a message for her kid? I just thought it was really weird writing or weird delivery. Well, maybe they didn't. Shauna didn't get close with them at all. Yeah, but still she would be like that woman is Hannah. We know who she is. Right. I don't know. I just thought that was really weird. And we don't know that like Hannah didn't make it back to the real world.

[01:02:18] We kind of assume that she didn't, but we don't know. And I also can't stop thinking about them saying what Shauna did when she got back. Yeah. And I wondered if that had something to do with it. Like what did Shauna do when she got back? Did she clean up some messes? Maybe. Yeah. Although we know from Callie's research that as far as like the public knows, Hannah, Edwin and Cody never showed back up. Yeah.

[01:02:47] And also they're trying to figure out who smuggled this tape out of the wilderness. If Hannah came back, they would just think it was her. Yeah. So there was a theory going around online. And I think it was Megan that posted it in one of the chats. I tried to find it again, but I couldn't find it. That somebody had taken a picture from Nat's storage space when, you know, Misty was going

[01:03:14] through all her stuff of a leather bag that kind of looked like Hannah's bag. And then I went and looked at Hannah's bag in this episode. They're kind of similar, kind of not. I'm not sure if they're the same bag. But it's possible that- It's awesome. Yeah. Brought it back. And we also know that Walter had access to that storage space because he had the key that he gave to Misty. He could have gone through it before he gave the key to Misty and gotten that dat tape. He could be the one behind this. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:44] It's good. I think he's a psycho, so he could do anything. I've been sort of critical about the adult storyline feeling like it didn't have enough meat to it, but it really does right now. Yeah. I'm digging it. I want to talk a little bit about what I have titled The Goat and the Apple, which is Jeff and Callie. Fans seem to all agree that Jeff is the one character that we all like.

[01:04:15] Like, so they're at the hotel and Shauna is like getting ready to leave and tells Jeff he has to stay in the hotel. And he very rightly blows up about it. He's like, what the hell? Like, Shauna, would you just tell me something? You know, my favorite part of that is he said, you get to just go over whenever you want and do whatever you want. Tell me nothing. And I'm stuck here in this poorly furnished shit box. Yep. And then he goes, I know secrecy is your love language, which is hilarious.

[01:04:46] And then she sort of says like, yeah, I know you want to know stuff, but I need you to stay here and watch Callie. And he sort of agrees. I mean, Jeff is, Jeff doesn't have a lot of power. And then Callie, you know, she only has a partial recording of what was on the tape. She doesn't have the message to the teen, to the daughter, for example. She just has the first part of like Lottie killing someone. And she does a little research and figures out, you know, these three people disappeared.

[01:05:16] And she goes and talks to Jeff about it. And, you know, she's all like, do we, you know, we've been assuming our mother that Shauna is a good person, but I think we both know that she could have done it. Like she could have killed these people. Jeff thinks there's bedbugs. He's like all like worked up and like looking at the pillows with a flashlight and everything. But I think it's cat scratch fever, which is a real thing. I've always thought that was a myth, but I did a little digging and it's real, but very, very rare.

[01:05:45] And it causes like itchy rashes and bumps under the skin and fevers and things like that. Like so Jeff's rash and itchy. Yeah. Yeah. It happens if a flea bites a cat and the flea has bacteria that transfers to the cat and then the cat scratches a human. And so like if you have an indoor only cat, don't worry about cat scratch fever. And the research I saw said that it's not lethal. It goes away by itself after a few months, which sounds miserable.

[01:06:14] And it's also extremely rare. It just, it doesn't happen that often. I thought that was interesting because the scratch on Jeff's hand was something we talked about last week. And, you know, there hasn't been an explanation for it yet. Brian and Cassie both think that Jeff or Callie killed Lottie. Yeah. I don't think. Jeff was at the old folks home all day and then he went home. I don't think it's going to be good.

[01:06:42] And I don't think Callie would kill Lottie, but who knows? He has another really fantastic line later when he's looking for the bedbugs and he says, enjoy your vermin, Joles. And I was like, oh wait, do the Joles own this crappy hotel? Is this the Joles hotel? I got the feeling they had like a chain of like boutique hotels or something, but maybe what they have is a chain of like shitty hotels.

[01:07:10] I just enjoyed that he was calling them Joles, like, like Shauna did. It's funny to me. Wendy. I don't think I have any big points left. I have a couple little points. When, when Edwin first comes onto the scene, I mean, he isn't there very long. He says, wait, this is a, you all are, um, oh my God.

[01:07:40] Does he say that because he, it's because he figures out that they're killing and eating people? Or that he figures out that they're, maybe he realizes, I couldn't decide if he realizes, oh, you're the girls from that missing plane. That's true. That's true. Or he's like, you're eating people. Like it's, you can't tell from that much dialogue or both. Yeah. Who knows? I thought that was, um, interesting.

[01:08:09] And then the only other little mini thing I have is that Misty breaks her glasses. Yeah. Or loses them anyway. Yeah. It reminded me of, um, Velma from Scooby-Doo. Oh yeah. She's always looking for her glasses. She's always feeling around, yeah. Well, in the pilot, we see her put her glasses on and they're cracked. Oh, I forgot that. Yeah. Yeah. So in the pilot, and that's straight out of Lord of the Flies where first Piggy gets

[01:08:36] one glass broken, but then ultimately he gets both of them broken, you know, both lens. Um, so I thought that was really interesting. I guess we didn't see her after that, did we? We just saw her looking for like trying to find the glasses, but she's like alone in the dark with blurry vision. Like she's not, she's not likely to find them. She's going to need some help. Yeah. I don't, I can't remember if she was there at the end, but I don't think so when Hannah

[01:09:06] showed up with Shauna and the others. Yeah. I don't think so. I think it's funny that they call it the shit cliff. Yeah. Yeah. That's where they threw their shit over. Um, I only have one other sort of point point. Um, but I think it's Jason's turn. Okay. Ty and Van. Yeah. That's my other point too. So let's do it.

[01:09:31] So Misty confronts Ty about having met with Lottie the day she died, which Ty never mentioned to Van. And in fact, pretty much lied about it. Right. Saying I wouldn't have even had time to kill her. So she wouldn't have had time to go talk to her either. And so that makes her suspect. But according to her, she went there because Ty thinks Van is in remission because it wanted

[01:10:01] a sacrifice and Nat died. Right. And Van says, okay, but I already told you I'm not willing to live that way. And Ty says, you don't have to. I will live that way for you. So it sounds like Ty intends to like carry a deck of cards around and just throw one out every once in a while. And whoever picks it up, just kill them. Yeah. Just to keep Van in remission. And I just think it's so interesting how she's really swung from being a skeptic. I mean, those two switch places. Van used to be a believer.

[01:10:32] But anyway, so she said she just said she wanted to talk to Lottie about all this after Van quote chickened out on killing that one guy. So that's what she says. I don't know if she was going to get her advice on it or what. But she says, I met up with her to have a private conversation. It certainly doesn't suggest that I killed her if that's what you're implying. And I was like, it 100% suggests that you killed her, Ty, the lawyer who should know that.

[01:11:04] But Misty asks Van if she thinks Ty could have done it. And Van sort of thinks about it and then says no. But you could tell that Van actually is like, maybe. Yeah. I mean, I expected her to say yes. Ty never denies killing Lottie. Misty asks her. And then later Van asks her. Van asks her. Yeah. Van and Ty got interrupted. But when Misty asks her, she's like, it's obvious whoever sent the tape to Shauna is the one who murdered Lottie. And this completely distracts them. Non-answer.

[01:11:32] Misty's off on another topic. And she never answers the question. So my guess is that Penny thinks Ty killed Lottie. Is that true? I have been. She's very high on my suspect list. But I can't tell. I can't decide if I think it's dark Ty or regular Ty. They certainly want us to believe that it was Shauna. Yeah. Like that's. I don't think it was any of. The yellow jacket. Our main yellow jacket ladies.

[01:12:02] It could have been an accident, which would be kind of a. Anticlimactic. I also wonder if. It needs to be murder. To be satisfying. So I go back and forth all the time, right? Murder. Magic or not magic, right? Is it supernatural? Is it not supernatural? So putting the supernatural hat on for a second. That killing Lottie, if she is the voice of it. Would make it angry, right?

[01:12:29] Lottie is the sort of like primary interpreter of it. And I don't think killing Lottie would be in the best interest of Ty wanting to keep Van alive. No. I think it would be more likely that she's telling the truth that she went there to talk to her about this whole thing because Lottie knows all about it. And it's a red herring. But and that if there is magic and if it is upset about Lottie being killed, that could explain why Van got so violently suddenly sick. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to go into that part.

[01:12:59] So she starts coughing up blood. And I'm wondering if Ty is going to think, of course, that that means she needs to kill someone else really quickly. And then in the hospital, this loud guy in the bed next to Vans and Ty's like, I'm going to fucking kill that guy. And Vans like, don't. And she's like, it was just an expression. But then that's when Van has this dream slash hallucination, seeing her younger self who says, and it was really fun to see the younger and older versions together. Look at you.

[01:13:29] You're afraid. We never actually cheated death. It was always an even trade. So that's exact. And then she lights the bed on fire. But that's exactly what Ty's been saying in order to keep you from dying. It has to be an even trade. We need to kill someone else. And I guess when young Van said that, it made me think, okay, Van got mauled by wolves and survived. And then who died after that? I guess Jackie was the next, the first one.

[01:13:58] So maybe that's what she meant by like an even trade, almost like Jackie's life instead of Van's. But anyway, then Van dreams of Darktie saying, only I can save you. So it just seems to be playing on this point that they're going to need to kill someone else to keep her alive. That's what I got out of it anyway. Yeah. That's certainly the implication.

[01:14:28] And she's so willing. Yeah. She's ready. And the dream was so creepy. The Ty in the hallucination or dream or whatever, right? She had the like dirt smeared all over her mouth. And then she's like, don't worry. I won't let them take your eyes. Like, ugh. So creepy. I'm like, oh no, that's going to be in my dreams at some point. I'm going to see Darktie. And Van is like, what are you going to save me for? Like, why?

[01:14:58] For who? What's the point? And I think that's something a lot of people who are facing a terminal illness go through. Like, am I even worth saving? I think it's one of the stages of the grief in that case. I have one more bigger point. Should I do it? Yeah. Okay. It's normalizing extreme behavior.

[01:15:20] So we kind of touched on this already, but I really like that someone fresh from civilization stumbled upon this scene, this crazy scene of wild rivalry right after they'd eaten somebody. And I think one of the most interesting things about this show is that it started off with the pit girl scene, which is just horrific screeching adolescents chasing a terrified girl into a pit of spikes and then serving her up in chunks for dinner at some pagan-y ceremony.

[01:15:48] And then immediately going back and showing them as these innocent, fresh faced high school soccer champs. And because that's how the show presented itself, I always thought that one of the main points was to get to understand how people can go from one extreme to the other, from being just normal to being doing extreme things like being in a cult or like a crazy conspiracy theory group or religious extremist groups and things like that. Because we see people in groups like that.

[01:16:18] And we're like, how the hell could somebody get there? Or like you think about Charles Manson grooming these girls to go out and try to kill people or ritual suicide cults like Jonestown and stuff. It's dark, dark stuff. And so I would imagine most of us watching the pit girl scene thought it was pretty messed up. But then we went back and started watching them as normal students who did some things, but not too bad.

[01:16:47] And even watching them later on as relatively normal middle-aged women who'd been through something together that we didn't know exactly what it was. But in most ways, they were really relatable. And so then as they, in parallel timelines, started progressing along this path, well, I guess only in the younger timeline, to cannibal cult and doing incrementally worse things. And the older version started showing some signs that maybe they weren't so innocent either.

[01:17:15] I think as we got to know them more, those things didn't matter to most of us. And we saw a lot. We saw infidelity, theft, sabotage, blackmail, death threats, cultism, poisoning, torture, murder. And we're like, yeah, but I love these women. You know, there's a part of me that feels that way too.

[01:17:36] And so when Edwin the frog scientist comes upon these girls in their full pagany post-cannibal screeching, screaming primal revelry, he says what anyone would say if they didn't know these girls already. What the fuck? And I'm like, yeah, we used to feel that way. That's why we named our podcast that, you know? And now we should rename it Yellow Jackets. Yeah, but we love these women. Join our cult.

[01:18:04] But it's interesting to try to – I've always tried to look at it more from an anthropological point of view where – well, actually, maybe that's not true. I try to look at it from an objective point of view. So back during the night of the doom coming dance when Shauna held the knife up to Travis's throat and Lottie was encouraging her to kill him, I had exactly the same kind of thoughts about all that as I did watching this episode, you know, where Lottie does kill the guy.

[01:18:32] I'm just like, man, there's some bad stuff going on here. But I was thinking sort of anthropological is actually kind of a counterpoint because anthropology is a study of human societies and cultures. And there's this concept called cultural relativism, which is the idea that cultures should be understood on their own terms rather than judged by the standards of another culture.

[01:18:56] And so anthropologists try to set aside their own biases and preconceived notions to objectively study different societies. And it is all relative, you know. And so, like, I was thinking, for example – or do you guys eat meat? I don't eat mammals. Yeah. You don't eat mammals. So you do, Wendy, and so do I. And there are some vegetarians out there who think that eating steak is just as horrific as eating a human, you know.

[01:19:26] And so to them, we're monsters. Some of them may be hearing my voice right now. Sorry. But I shouldn't laugh. But anyway, I'm just trying to point out that it's all relative, you know, and that some might argue that we should maybe be looking at the yellow jackets that way at this point because they're developing their own culture. But then the harm part comes into it. When you kill anyone that comes near you, it's hard to be unbiased about that.

[01:19:55] So I asked ChatGPT, what if a culture is hostile towards anyone outside the culture? Do anthropologists still try to look at them through the lens of cultural relativism? And it said, yes, but with some limitations. Anthropologists still try to apply cultural relativism on studying groups that are hostile to outsiders, but that doesn't mean they excuse or endorse harmful behaviors. Instead, they aim to understand why such hostility exists within its cultural, historical, environmental context.

[01:20:24] So I thought that was kind of interesting. But I just like to try to step out of all this and not just go with what I feel because I'm almost done, I promise. But one thing is like when two people have two completely different ideas about the same thing, I think, and it's something important, like climate change is one I think of. Some people think it's real and harmful. Other people don't believe in it.

[01:20:51] I think that's often because they have different feelings about it and different contexts that they approach it from. And we just see that a lot in our polarized political climate. And so I try to step out of my own emotional context to see something as clearly as I can to really try to understand what's going on.

[01:21:12] Because I think it's dangerous sometimes if we just go by how we feel about it, then we can find ourselves in these little bubbles that don't understand each other kind of a thing. I agree with you for the most part. I think it's really valuable to every so often take a step back from your own beliefs and check in with them and be like, what is this based on? And where did I get this belief from? Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[01:21:37] And I agree that emotion often is more important than facts in deciding what somebody believes. Yeah. I think that's very true and it's really dangerous. I struggle with anthropology as a science because I think there's something great about it, studying other cultures, trying to understand them. I think trying to understand human nature and human behavior is really important.

[01:22:05] But I also think there's something a little condescending about being like, ooh, here's a primitive culture. I, as an educated person from the West, am going to go and study them. And I'm going to set aside my feelings to do it. Like, I have mixed feelings about anthropology as a science. Yeah. And maybe that's a bad filter to look at it as you're saying that. I don't know. It's just, it's one filter. And there's a lot of people I love and respect who study anthropology. So, you know, who am I to say?

[01:22:32] It's just something that I think about, you know, when I think about this stuff. The core of the point I'm making is, you know, like you look at a cult and you go, how could anybody get to the point? But you watch this show and you get to love the girls. And then we do, whether we completely excuse what they're doing or even just a little bit, that means that we're sort of experiencing what it's like to be indoctrinated into a cult. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[01:23:01] The show is doing a great job leading us down this path. Yeah. Of being like, because when they ate Jackie, we were all like, well, they were starving and she was already cooked. And like, you know, what are you going to do? I still feel that way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was a reasonable choice. Javi was a little bit worse. Yeah. And then coach was a lot worse, but they took us there very carefully and slowly and led us there to a point where we kind of understood how it happened. Yeah. Because, I mean, I thought, oh, good.

[01:23:31] We're going to get to see how people on how other people get to a place where they can justify these extreme behaviors. But then they had the audience do the same thing to an extent. And that's just fascinating to me, you know? Yeah. I think it's great writing. I'm very impressed with the writing on the show for the most part. Every now and then there's something weird. Yeah. Absolutely. I agreed with you guys that the scene where they were poking around Lottie's parents' house was pretty goofy.

[01:23:59] I think if we read, I kind of like that scene. Oh, sorry. I liked Shauna and Walter together. Yeah. I thought that, that to me is where it verges on comedy. Yeah. It helped also for me to know that they're friends in real life and that they were so excited to be working together. Like, I was like, oh, there they are working together. They're so happy. And the little uniforms they were wearing, the whole thing was adorable. Right. I think it's like we reshape our expectations.

[01:24:28] Like, we all have, not we all, I have empathy for Shauna, adult Shauna, even though I know. I'm pretty sure Shauna's a killer. I mean, we, she killed Adam. Yeah. And so, but we still have empathy for her and we want her relationship with her family to work out.

[01:24:49] But like, what if we were actually talking about like, you like OJ Simpson, who we're pretty sure was a cold blooded killer. But got away with it. So, he had to live with that for the rest of his life. What if we were studying that? I feel like we think differently about it. I imagine that if you're friends with OJ, like the guy that drove him in the white Bronco, that you might feel differently. You might feel some sympathy for him. Yeah, they didn't stay friends, but.

[01:25:19] And there are a lot of people. That is kind of my point that if you followed any, not any, some killers that we judge, if you were friends with them or follow them and knew about their lives, you might feel a little bit more sympathy for them. Or maybe you have to.

[01:25:37] I remember in the 90s, the OJ thing, there was a large number of people in this country for whom OJ Simpson is a huge cultural symbol and someone that they really loved and was really important to them. And they saw the criminal justice system in America as innately racist and unfair to any black person. And so him getting a not guilty made them happy. And at the time, I really had a hard time with it.

[01:26:06] I was like, but he like chopped up his wife. Like, it's so violent and so disgusting. But I can also kind of understand why they were happy about him getting away with it because what it meant to them symbolically as black people who feel like everything is stacked against them in America. And I agree with them a lot. I think it's the same phenomenon that makes Luigi Mangione sympathetic to people. Yeah. It's what he, it's not what he did.

[01:26:37] It's, and I'm not saying what he did was okay because it is not. Yeah, murder. But it's what it represents. It's what's behind it. And also he's so good looking. That doesn't hurt. I mean, right. Celebrity, you know, came from a wealthy, you know, that's, both of them had that. It was more disturbing to me though was after the Boston Marathon bombing.

[01:27:04] You know, one of the brothers was killed during the capture and the other brother lived. And then there was this huge swell of support for him online and a lot of people who thought he was, he was not guilty. And it, it seemed to be primarily young women because they thought he was cute. And there were all these websites that came up that were like, you know, pink and hearts and sparkles and like, Jokin Tsarnaev is innocent, free Tsarnaev.

[01:27:32] And I am very convinced that he did it. I'm still opposed to the death penalty in any case, but I found the phenomenon of people wanting him to be innocent really fascinating. Yeah. I mean, I don't think he was the mastermind, but I don't think that changes his culpability. Yeah, he's still very guilty. I mean, children were bombed. Yeah. I think his older brother is slightly more guilty, but like, we're talking about. Yeah.

[01:28:02] Like a huge, but like, yeah. You're both murderers. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I only have like one or two little notes left. How about you guys? I have a few. I have a couple. So I think if we do notes. Do you think that Jeff read in her journals about this? About. I don't think so. I've been wondering that. Intense frog people. No, I think.

[01:28:27] Like, well, he said he didn't know about them when Cal Cali asked. Right. He could have been lying. But I wonder if Shauna wrote in her journal when she was keeping everything inside. But now that she's not keeping anything inside anymore, she doesn't need to. And then that made me think, oh, well, maybe Jeff doesn't know the worst of what they did. Maybe he only knows about Jackie and Javi, but not coach or these researchers or pit girl. Yeah. I wonder that too.

[01:28:55] Which would explain kind of why she's isolated herself right now. Like, I was thinking, why wouldn't you tell them what you were doing? But I agree. I think those aren't, that's not in her journals. Yeah. It's, shame is incredibly powerful. And it makes people lie all the time.

[01:29:20] And the shame that Shauna must have felt once they got back from the wilderness and she started thinking about everything that happened once she was safe must be gigantic for all of them. Well, also, she's got her knife in her car heading for another. I think that's meant to make us think, ah, she's going to kill this girl and she's a psycho.

[01:29:42] And I think it's more like she thinks this woman is trying to kill her and that's the kind of knife she had in the wilderness and it makes her feel safe. For protection. Yeah. And the other note I had was we find out from the adult Yellow Jackets that Jen and Melissa got pretty close to Hannah.

[01:30:10] And that they are both now dead. We don't know when they died. We don't know if it's when they come back. Again, I keep thinking about what did Shauna do when she came back. But I'm really curious to see. Like, that's a big spoiler bomb to drop on us. Like, we now know those two characters' future. Or at least that they're no longer alive in 2021.

[01:30:40] Unless they're wrong about it. Yeah. When the froggers first came into camp and, you know, after the what the fuck, Hannah says, sorry to interrupt. We were just leaving. Which I think is hilarious. I feel like that's what I would have done. Oh, I'm so sorry. We were in the wrong place. Oh, never mind. Carry on. Yeah. Just a really funny thing to say in that situation.

[01:31:10] It's like, it's a phrase that, or a sentence that's in your head, right? You've probably said it. I've said it. Like, we were just leaving. But it's just such an understatement for the situation. I just find it really funny. Even at the end when they bring her back with the med kit and she goes, hi, I'm Hannah. That's kind of funny too. Yeah. The whole thing. Hannah's, I'm looking forward to more Hannah. I think she's funny. Yeah. And go fuck your blood dirt, Lottie, which Mari said. I just, Mari's really grown on me.

[01:31:40] I love that no matter what is happening, she's sassy. I just, she's got an indomitable spirit. Yeah. Makes me suspect that girl doesn't have to stretch too hard for those lines, but I don't know. Yeah. Oh, and why on earth did they push that arrow through? That was not a good idea. But even still, I've seen that in a lot of TV shows. I think there's an artery there. I trust Miss Wendy. And I, yeah.

[01:32:10] Yeah. But I have seen that in a lot of shows where they're like, it's better to push it through than to pull it out. I don't know. You would want to go in there and dig it out. I have no medical training. Yeah. Yeah. That freaked me out because I thought, is that how she dies? Does, do they hit an artery and. Or like. They left it kind of open. Infection seems very, very likely. Yeah. As it did with Coach's heel.

[01:32:38] Well, hopefully there's some alcohol in that med kit. Or antibiotics. And I love how Shauna is so angry. Like, you shot our friend with an arrow. Like, yeah. You planted an axe in our friend's head. Yeah. Yeah. Nat is like, okay, we're not going to hurt you. And Shauna's like, grabs Hannah's arms behind her back. Right. And is like hostile right away. It's such a difference between the two of them. Yeah. That's all I had. Yeah. Jason, do you have any more?

[01:33:09] Yeah. I spy in the car. Misty says, I spy with my little I. Something that begins with K. Ty says, Krispy Kreme? No. Shauna goes, it's not a knife, is it? As if like, you don't have a knife in my car. Van says, what kind of a sociopath puts a silent letter on I spy? And then Misty was the kind because it was Ty's knapsack. Yeah. And Van's like, oh, that kind of sociopath.

[01:33:39] And it's like, yep, that's Misty. That's such good writing. None of that was necessary for anything other than making us smile. Yeah. That was just a cute little character moment. And then just the whole thing about them all texting each other that Shauna's the killer in the car. Misty has zero chill. Like, she got that information from Walter. She couldn't wait till they got somewhere and stopped to have that conversation with Ty and Van.

[01:34:04] Like, Shauna wasn't going to like, all of a sudden, as they're driving, murder them. Start killing them. Yeah. And it was just so funny that they're all texting each other. And I just love that Shauna figured it out right away. Like, are you texting each other? Yeah. Also that Misty was like, you did all that, Shauna? And Shauna's like, yes, I know how to use Google.

[01:34:24] Like, I think people forget sometimes that Shauna's really smart because her adult persona is this like, sweet, quiet housewife for the most part. And I think even the other Yellow Jackets sometimes forget that Shauna's like, highly capable and really smart.

[01:35:11] Mm-hmm. And she didn't put it past him to kill anyone if he thought he wanted to. And she didn't put it past him in her life and relevant. Yeah. Yeah. I had wondered if Simone Kessel, who plays adult Lottie, or played, asked to leave Yellow Jackets the way that Juliette Lewis did. But no, she told Variety I was pretty brokenhearted because it felt like it had come to an end just when I felt Lottie was coming into her own.

[01:35:38] so it's kind of bummed to hear that she didn't want to go because i thought she was doing great yeah i thought she was doing great but it is good i guess to have a major character like this to build a murder mystery around too so i had to pick somebody uh and then last um you know last week's episode was called thanksgiving canada which i found funny and i you know this week's called croak i just think there's a sense of humor in these titles and i actually don't think that

[01:36:06] calling it thanksgiving canada means it's in october like thanksgiving is in canada because in this episode they say these frogs have their mating events in the summer oh but earlier in the season they were talking about how it's starting to get cold and winter's right around the corner maybe maybe i'm wrong but i'm just saying they did say the mating event was in the summer i missed that

[01:36:31] that's interesting so they started out on the solstice and then with the ben starving himself episode it definitely seemed like weeks if not a month or two was gone by because you could see he kept getting gaunter and gaunter and gaunter so maybe it's september so i i think we're up to at least

[01:36:55] october well what is that how does it make sense that they have this mating event in the summer then yeah that that i don't know how to make that make sense so i gotta think about that maybe that is summer for canada i don't know people got really upset when i said it wasn't warm in canada that's true we did get feedback about that we don't know i'm glad to hear it's warm

[01:37:21] there yeah oh i'm sorry i did not please canada please let me in i mean i love canada yeah i live there come on i i only have been to vancouver and montreal and i love them both and so i'm i would love to explore the rest of canada canada we love you i've been to montreal and um i've never been to

[01:37:47] the west coast but i've been to the east coast calgary and uh british columbia vancouver love them both i would very much like to visit prince edward island that seems like a magical place in the summer yeah yeah in the summer otherwise my google history may cover what parts of canada

[01:38:12] are the warmest lately yeah vancouver seems to be like the rest of the pacific northwest just sort of

[01:38:19] like always mildish i'll take that yeah it's a beautiful city and we're back we have some news

[01:39:48] there's an article from deadline.com an interview with ashley lyle it's long so i just pulled out a couple of quotes she says i feel like things really start to ramp up six onward and i'm very curious how people would respond said lyle i think we do start answering some big questions and i think the finale is really fun so i'm just excited for people to watch it you never know especially the

[01:40:13] bigger the move the more room you're leaving for divisiveness but we're all about making big moves on this show and then about the what the fuck moment she says it was her favorite moment in this season she explained that the characters played by nelson franklin ashley sutton and joel mckale were part of her and nicholson's original pitch um so they've always been working up towards this moment so cool

[01:40:39] and uh we've long said that we feel like natalie is sort of the moral center of the show and i think that she very much has her own personal sense of right and wrong and feels it very strongly and so in this particular case while technically she's murdering somebody it is as you said a mercy killing and she feels in that moment it is absolutely the right thing to do it's something that as bart said i think it really affects her character and that was part of moving into season three with adult

[01:41:06] natalie's death the moral center has disappeared for all of our characters and that felt like a very important shift to us moving into what we see is that the back half of the series as it were so that's about coach not about lottie killing edwin yeah yeah yeah that this is this is yeah not about that because this episode hasn't aired yet so that news wouldn't be out oh right right right yeah um and then this is just a little bit of fun autostraddle.com has a which yellow jackets prop

[01:41:34] are you quiz which i took earlier today and the answer i got was that i am van's vhs player because i'm um that's very nostalgic and reliable yes what are some of the other does it i guess you can't see what the props are until you take the quiz right exactly yeah so i'm gonna put i think we should put the link in the show notes and yeah people write in and tell us what answer you got the quiz and tell us what you are because i just think that's hilarious um although you have to pick

[01:42:03] your favorite cast member and the list does not include juliette lewis so the quiz is already a little off but still it's fun to do okay time for some listener buzz and daphne couldn't be with us to record today and she said we should tell people it's because she hates frogs but um she did send us some feedback about this episode and of course all the rest of the feedback will be about previous

[01:42:29] episodes because we're recording in advance so she said we finally get joel mckale but i'm sure he's not long for this world lots of information in this one and i think it blew things open according to what's mentioned in the present timeline jen and melissa got close to hannah but they are dead it was great to learn that the crazy sounds they were hearing were not supernatural but frogs mating parentheses but i hate frogs close parentheses present day shauna is getting more

[01:42:58] terrifying but i'm not sure walter is telling the truth about the dna match my fucked up moment of the week was lottie killing edwin and then slathering herself in his blood i mean what the hell also i think hannah could be pit girl there you go thanks daphne we miss you miss you next time uh okay these ones are on episode six and the first which was uh thanksgiving canada right first one comes from

[01:43:27] jeffrey ashton who says reading reading the variety interview with kruger who plays ben and road what oh what's her name i her name is sophie thatcher but maybe she got married or changed her name or something i don't know young nat so interview with the actors who play uh ben and young nat was interesting while the interview was edited they kept in several moments where kruger

[01:43:55] talks about saying goodbye to the cast only to awkwardly return for another farewell when they brought him back to shoot additional scenes after filming his death that feels like a bit of a spoiler right because that means they'll have more scenes with coach but anyway he even mentioned there were multiple awkward goodbyes because they kept calling him because they kept calling him back for additional scenes he says they weren't reshooting old scenes but doing new scenes kruger also talked about the show

[01:44:20] having a traditional funeral party for killed off characters i took it as a farewell gathering to the actor because of what road said in the interview she was especially disappointed because she missed the party since she was frequently flying home during filming she was sad about not being able to say bye but she considered herself with the belief that the writers she consoled herself with the belief that the writers would eventually bring kruger back somehow she said and it makes sense to expect ben to show up in a

[01:44:46] flashback or hallucination as they've done for jackie yeah i hope so that'd be great honestly i get the feeling the writers weren't entirely sure what to do with ben and a lot of good footage i'm i'm thinking they could have easily removed the achilles cut scene or the force feeding moment or even held off on killing him until a later season but without those three elements the episodes or seasons might have run short

[01:45:11] i don't know man i think they wanted to make us squirm yeah he says i really like this season but that said i do think the last few episodes felt a bit repetitive specifically the akila cave gas sequences and the extended suffering for ben it was engaging but i'm not convinced the writers originally intended for things to play out that way i really really liked the whole um first gas hallucination lynchian stuff i was super into that i think

[01:45:40] i was more into it than most people i don't know why but i guess i often like when there's hallucinatory drug trips and shows and that one totally did not disappoint i like them when there is when they're a little simple and and make at least a little bit of sense what i hate is when it's like like image salad i feel like sometimes dream sequences and hallucinations and drug tips they just throw a bunch of images at you

[01:46:07] and they're like you're not supposed to understand it and that just drives me nuts one thing about that one is um and i didn't i think i only watched it once but it wasn't totally clear to me who was dreaming what and it almost felt like it could have been a shared hallucination but that would have made it supernatural and so i think they deliberately avoiding having the girls compare notes afterwards to confirm or deny that you know but it seemed like most of it was akila so i don't know

[01:46:36] yeah the only thing they said was i think shauna said it wasn't that weird of a dream and that's as much as we saw so it we don't know how much was shared and how much wasn't but i liked those those visions and i thought that the bear you know ben as a bridge vision was a narratively important one so yeah i'm okay with the gas hallucinations cool i like the way they've been making akila more

[01:47:05] important and i'm i'm pretty invested to see what happens with her character yeah me too all right may amradini says i guess now we're getting to the meat of the season pun intended the episode was so horrifying my fucked up moment of the week was the whole episode i could get that dark tie has been here the whole time brilliant that's why sammy rejected her again

[01:47:34] i think they've meshed into one now and she's present all the time and that's interesting yeah anyone notice maury's face when lottie said shauna should be our leader she was like no no i wonder if that's foreshadowing to her demise they have totally gone over the edge did they need to put coach's head on a spike yeah did they need to do that i got truman show vibes at the end of the

[01:48:02] episode i thought the bird watchers were producers and they were finally seeing the results of what they created that's immediately what i thought as well may the three-eyed bear reminded me of the three-eyed raven crockpot theory of the week they will chase the bird watchers into the pit and eat them p.s canadian thanksgiving is the second monday in october pps loved listening to the pod you

[01:48:26] ladies are so fantastic and jason oh thank you may oh you guys have been amazing it's been a really fun season our next piece of feedback comes from jenny ryan who has a voicemail and also a note let's do the note first it's kind of amazing to me how when the girls devolve into mania i'm reminded not of horror films or stories about cults but of sleepovers my friends and i had in high school

[01:48:56] teenage girls are powerful and terrifying i love them so much it's awesome and that is kind of a line from ted lasso what does it he say he says like teenage girls are mysterious and dark or something like that yeah anyway and here's her voicemail hello yellow jackets friends and family jenny from saskatoon here just wondering about your thoughts um for the title of the episode where they kill and

[01:49:24] then eat ben uh why was that called thanksgiving brackets canada are they trying to insinuate that in canada for thanksgiving we consume humans because that's not really traditional food up here for any holiday that i'm aware of um so what was that all about are they trying to say it's mid-october because if so it would be very cold um were those guys birding for their long weekend is that what they're

[01:49:53] gonna get to anyway i'd love your thoughts okay unless it's been revealed and then this whole call call is pointless okay bye thanks jen i don't know what to make of that except that they were having a big feast yes i just think they were like all right we're having a feast let's call it thanksgiving because that's fun oh wait they're in canada oh you know what they have thanksgiving in canada let's call it thanksgiving canada i did think it was a time stamp but but you know you've you've made

[01:50:23] me doubt that a little jason but i do i do think i don't know it's not summer yeah it's possible yeah all right thanks jenny jenny's gonna be on the white lotus podcast next week because my jenny's out of town oh a jenny for jenny yeah then i'd have to remember to change the name or anything yeah uh robin mark robin robin's in um edinburgh she says this whole episode hurt my feelings

[01:50:52] i can imagine that yeah totally i knew coach was a goner but watching him literally beg nat for death ouch making her be the one to butcher him too was just another layer of cruelty on the other hand at least it seemed like shauna was trying to help in her own fucked up way i'm glad i didn't have to come on for that one honestly the others have been shielded from the real horrors of eating each other because they haven't had to witness the act of breaking down bodies into

[01:51:19] meat and now the scene where they get rid of adam in the adult timeline makes much more sense honestly i feel so terrible for nat as a whole she's already been through the ringer as a teenager with everything and her issues with addiction as an adult make so much sense it's a special flavor of fucked up watching them eat their coach's corpse surrounded by more than enough food by far the most disturbing of the three people we've seen them eat now i agree even before the headshot i think ben

[01:51:47] was something of an anchor to quote real life before and now he's gone they're about to go further and become more violent than we've seen the people who turned up are going to be victims if the tape from the adult timeline tells us anything speaking of how long has taissa been other taissa the whole season i just don't think so loving the season so far i don't like slow paced as much but i can handle it with this show knowing that they have a set amount of seasons and i'm trusting all will be

[01:52:16] answered in time that is good do you think the pace has been slow i don't feel that way either not compared to white lotus which i've also loved but yeah but that's what i said about white lotus like when you're podcasting on it you're so invested you know i feel like what it seems like to other

[01:52:38] people might be different because they're not as yeah i hope that listening to the podcast or of any show will help people who aren't quite sure like it more you know we have a voicemail from steve brown hello yellow jackets wtf this is steve and this is for uh thanksgiving canada i know they have canada or they have canada thanksgiving have thanksgiving in canada but uh i'm a little late on this one so i may

[01:53:05] or may not do a live steve but we'll see it's starting now yeah jeff we don't know how you feel about the cops actually but you must feel pretty bad about them i guess hey so there was the conclusion and shauna jumped to it someone's trying to kill them i mean the brakes the freezer lottie the tape i don't know how many days are we gonna have of this of coach trying to get natalie to kill him because i mean it makes sense i guess for coach but if the other girls see him as the hope of getting

[01:53:30] home you know misty is still wearing natalie's jacket while she uh is trying to get evidence from lottie's murder okay so van and tyra talking about this dat tape and said something about birders and i've been seeing something on the internet because i'm a little late to the party about bird watchers on this one in the 96 timeline so progress has something to do with it huh okay so it took a week for him to realize he wasn't eating he had a limo driver deliver lottie's trash to misty on the side of

[01:53:56] the road okay this is weird now van found the dat recorder and some old telephone is ringing um what hey they're all masked up and they're gonna force the coach to eat how are they gonna oh wow this is gross what did they force down his throat oh come on you're not gonna let's hear what's on the tape misty tracks down lisa and she took an oath and vacation days at work so what was that on the tape was that them from last season the last episode when they were chasing shauna or chasing

[01:54:23] natalie through the woods oh she did it she just stabbed him in the heart oh okay what are they gonna do to natalie now oh and now shauna becomes the leader okay i don't know what just happened between callie and shauna with the phone and i see that she was able to see the recently devoted deleted memos are you still delivering food for this chinese restaurant if you have fifty thousand dollars cash lisa okay the screeching and now they're dancing around the fire this is weird oh

[01:54:50] two people just walked out of the woods and coach's head is on the pike they just saw his head what the who is that uh thanks steve that was fun that was a fun ride yeah and i mean i think because the show is a descent into darkness you know the whole time i can understand why they would make it kind of

[01:55:15] heightened and fun like we laugh a lot when we're i i know there's a lot of darkness but um i think they're purposefully trying to also have it be kind of arch and fun too because otherwise it would just be so depressing i feel like you know yeah i don't i don't know if i would enjoy podcasting on it if it didn't have moments of lightness yeah i agree especially in the adult timeline yeah more yeah all right

[01:55:43] this is from anna from ukraine hope all is well anna we're so glad to hear from you again she writes oh wow it's getting more intense in the show so the other tie i'm very fascinated by that character even from season one i was still wondering what was a possible trigger that awoke the other tie let's assume that in season one episode one other tie was already in action so that means that

[01:56:08] travis's death didn't trigger other tie so what was it natalie's ocd or that jessica showed up as part of her investigation van's photo i still think that the wolf that tie saw in the first season was a direct van reference and one of the drawings that sammy had included a red-haired woman which also creates a possibility that other tie drew it i'm very interested in why other tie is so invested

[01:56:36] in van they said that other tie does what usual tie wants but cannot do so it's really interesting that other tie traumatized her son put simone into the hospital but kissed van at the first interaction with her about van i don't know if the writers just wanted to make a few episodes of happy tie van scenes

[01:56:58] but season two adult van immediately saw that tie lied about adam immediately and she seemed to be able to tell a difference between tiesa's but now she is having trouble with telling a difference maybe it could be the cancer which we still don't know which one i think we did find out in this episode seven but it seems more like inconsistent writing or we don't see the bigger picture or love makes you blind

[01:57:25] also i can say that scene where they're making out in season three episode one and tie sees the man with no eyes is when other tie took control p.s the more writers are pointing out that other tie could have killed lottie the less i believe this theory it's definitely not jeff caligula van or misty but i have doubts about shauna and callie so suspects are walter hillary swank character or joe mikhail

[01:57:53] could be three of them or laura lee's ghost thank you have a nice weekend and hopefully things get better and then anna followed up by sending us a photo that i have seen circulating on the internet of jeff with scratches on his hand and anna says maybe he is a killer his reaction was a little bit off and that also i think is why cassie and um brian think he might have something to do with it

[01:58:23] i like the idea that it's laura lee's ghost because we saw lottie when lottie was with travis when travis died and that whole weird thing that we don't know exactly what went down there that she saw laura lee's ghost if she was standing at the top of those stairs doing whatever candle related ritual she was doing and she saw laura lee's ghost she she might have fallen down the stairs without

[01:58:48] another person being there to push her and that's possible it's a good theory could still be non-supernatural given that she hallucinates a lot exactly i also like that anna included caligula on the innocent list you don't know him very well that's right we haven't seen caligula in action yet

[01:59:11] all right here's a call from archmaester rennie okay i've got some really wacky wilderness theories for you this week so first i'm still following the money i still think the 50k or part of it is what lottie took from travis's account after he died we now know that she gave that money to lisa

[01:59:37] and clearly the apology that she was practicing a few episodes ago was for lisa i think that lottie started the cult specifically to get close to lisa because lottie knows who lisa is i think lisa is the daughter of travis and nat conceived just before or just after they got back from the wilderness

[02:00:00] and given up for adoption at birth or lisa is the daughter of travis and lottie conceived just before or just after they got back from the wilderness and given up for adoption there is nothing in season two episode four in the scene with lisa's mother that indicates that she's a biological rather than

[02:00:22] an adoptive mother so i think misty will discover lisa's true parentage because the material from under lottie's fingernails will reveal two identities one there will be a bit of hair from lisa i'm assuming that lottie hugged lisa and ran her fingers through her hair the other dna will be from lottie's killer

[02:00:48] i do not think lisa is the killer so in the team timeline theory number two i think that they will kill those birders but only after they learn the way out to civilization and then they will voluntarily stay through another winter so that their reappearance won't coincide with the disappearance

[02:01:13] of the birders finally there was a phone number in the aussie's ice cream ad from a couple episodes ago people have called that number and transcribed what the recording says if you just search for it you'll find it on the internet um and that message says so there's words that they said they say in the

[02:01:40] recording but there's also some morse code and of course people have figured out what the morse code said and it says the screams are not what they seem that's a clear reference to the line in twin peaks the owls are not what they seem so i think the screeching sound we've been hearing is some rare kind of owls and that that is what those birders were following and they found something else altogether

[02:02:07] screech screech screech screech buzz buzz buzz thanks rennie that's awesome i remember seeing that phone number and thinking i should call that number and then i never did it so i'm so excited that you did and um i mean now we know that it's frogs but the theory about owls and frogs i mean it's close enough who cares it makes sense and i would not be surprised at all if that's a very intentional

[02:02:34] reference to twin peaks i mean this show definitely has some david lynch-y kind of feeling to it for sure that yeah i mean that hallucination i just mentioned a little bit ago felt like it came right at twin peaks to me i also love the idea that lisa is related to them somehow yeah have you guys thought about that i i have not before but i love lisa and anything that makes her come back on the show

[02:02:58] more would make me happy i was glad to see her and i was kind of surprised it was interesting to see her just so dismissive of lottie but i guess it makes sense given what happened yeah um i she mentioned transcribing that um voicemail or voicemail and it reminded me that i wrote down um hannah's obituary

[02:03:23] do you want to hear it oh yeah it says it doesn't have a date but you know shauna was looking at it online it says please join the family of hannah sophia finch for a celebration of life at the harrisburg friendship church this saturday known to her friends and family as a curious and enthusiastic soul who gave her all to every endeavor hannah founded her high school's ultimate frisbee team when she was only

[02:03:48] a freshman taking them immediately to regional championships so another champ sports champion hannah overcame many personal challenges to earn her high school diploma through night school and still puts in shifts on the weekend teaching frisbee to local youths upon graduation she attended keen university uh undergraduate on a full scholarship something invited her to continue her graduate

[02:04:12] something something emerging herpetology herpetology is the branch of zoology concerned with reptiles and amphibians so nothing mind-blowing but a little more color university explains the kuh oh yeah yeah um thank you for that uh we heard from kate who says hi besties in episode six during the

[02:04:38] ben bq okay that's hilarious ben bq misty was singing breakfast at tiffany's by deep blue something this was a funny detail in itself but then i remembered in season one episode four bear down misty is trying to help coach ben poop in the woods he's really struggling and she tells him that sometimes singing helps to move things along and she starts singing breakfast at tiffany's i have to assume this is an intentional callback love the show thanks for all your great insights

[02:05:04] thanks kate i remember her singing something but i didn't remember what song it was yeah so that song reminds her of ben that was part of her honoring him part of the feast okay solace from the pocono says hi ladies first time writing in i love the podcast i'm writing this before finishing the second half of the show so maybe i'm jumping the gun a bit did anyone notice that coach ben was somehow wearing the necklace early in the episode

[02:05:33] what's up with that your thoughts take care oh well natalie put it on him when he was supposed to be executed yeah the in episode five so i think he's just still wearing it yeah because he's wearing it when she goes to butcher him so i think he's had it on that whole time yeah which is fine we didn't really see what happened next right but yeah she took it off him but then i don't know where

[02:05:57] where it goes from there all right jennifer mcginley says the dream bear reminded me of the minecraft deer in that walking dead episode with rick and michonne at the fairground and then jennifer also sent in a little snippet about the pilot episode she said this one was showing as available on my fire stick last week so i put it on watched it for half an hour before i realized it was the pilot

[02:06:23] episode as i'd come that far i watched it all and enjoyed going back with a little bit more knowledge of what's to come why didn't i notice earlier i don't know i was thinking it was a series of flashbacks you know what that just happened to me with severance i was like oh i have time now to start severance season two and i i thought i hit season two episode one and started playing it but it was season one episode one and i was watching for a while and i was like this seems kind of familiar

[02:06:52] but maybe it's the same story from a different perspective and then after a while i was like oh i'm re-watching season one and then i was like if i remember it this poorly you maybe should i'm gonna re-watch season one yeah season i'm loving that show and i liked season one a lot but i'm loving season two even more it's so good i'm excited to get to it yeah but i'm still i'm on like season one episode five or six now yeah that was a good idea to rew i did i i binged season one before i got into season

[02:07:20] two and i was glad i did all right here is another voice message from michelle curly this is for yellow jackets this is michelle calling to say i have an idea about the uh locket theory i think it represents what the wilderness chooses so the wilderness chooses the leader but it also chooses

[02:07:46] the person who has to die so i think that's why the necklace keeps being passed back and forth my two cents great podcast take care bye i don't know because didn't shauna have it on for a while in the beginning when jackie gave it to her to like calm her nerves or whatever yeah yeah um but

[02:08:10] jackie had it on when she died and and then nat had it on until she gave it to ben so that's not a bad theory i like it uh we got some feedback from becky anderson who says r.i.p ben i am so sad he's gone but glad he's not being forced to suffer anymore that feeding tube scene was awful surprised teen shauna was decent in this episode but why in the hell did they keep coach's head out like that

[02:08:40] did they do that with javi or jackie seemed odd i don't want to believe it but jeff looked shady when shauna mentioned lottie's death those bird watchers are so gonna get killed they saw ben's head no way they get to live now it's a general consensus i think they um maybe leaving coach's head out was a sign of well that they're getting more comfortable with their lifestyle but also

[02:09:08] just their level of respect for him which for most of them was low you know like they weren't ashamed of it they were just like yeah we don't care about this guy anymore something like that maybe or maybe it was like just developing another ritual maybe going forward we'll see that they always leave the person's head out that they eat yeah sorry it's so gross when i started podcasting i never thought

[02:09:36] that would be a sentence i would hear you thought walking dead was as dark as you were gonna get not even close yeah okay that seems cute by comparison okay this is just what we need to keep our mind off the horrors of the world uh lisa spear says i'm listening to the listener comments from last week's episode that are in this

[02:10:02] week's pod i think there's something to the theory that the whole summer scenario this season is some sort of imaginary recreation in this week's episode right when lottie first heard the screeching there was quick vcr interference effect like they use in the opening theme i think that happened at least once before too i can't figure out how that would then tie together with the very real bird watchers dat tape of them screaming it must have been left behind in the wilderness and someone found

[02:10:29] it and is now threatening shauna with it i do think they kill the bird watchers but their disappearance froggers sorry but their disappearance and search for them is what leads to the girls being rescued it will be fascinating yeah i think that could be true it will be fascinating to see what their interaction is like with people from civilization after all this time i wonder if anybody would have predicted what it was like do they kill them right away kind of do they ask them questions about

[02:10:56] what's going on out there finally is a big who's president now you don't want to know uh finally it's a big plot hole at least for now that ben died without us finding out who he and javi was taking talking to in the cave it was so cruel to torture him that way i kept thinking is he just laying in his own filth he can't exactly go anywhere to relieve himself what a nightmare as for current day i still

[02:11:22] think shauna killed lottie during the scene of her going in lottie's room and then interacting with her dad she seemed to be feeling very guilty though bad tie is definitely a close second that scene in bed was crazy still loving the show and the pod buzz buzz buzz i think coach and javi were hallucinating due to the gas is what we're supposed to believe if you're if you're going to take the non lotty woo

[02:11:51] approach to the world very possible yeah okay here's a voicemail from enwin hello yellow jackets it's enwin here a bit of feedback for episode five and six um you were asking about whether it's all right to call people crazy or not and i have worked in mental health and the community and also acute and patient

[02:12:18] mental health and um yeah a more pc um phrase would be mentally unstable but i also can share that um sometimes in behind the scenes in the nurse's office um you can also hear people being called crazy um just as a bit of a way to kind of debrief um after some tense situations um i think ben being a bridge was to represent that he was the final thing standing between them and savagery and i think

[02:12:46] that has really become evident in this last episode uh i like you penny i've also got a soft spot for melanie linsky um i was actually an extra in heavenly creatures melanie was 15 at the time i think i was 18 and i was in one of the scenes with the school assembly where they're all singing and they zoom in on her and it was quite cool to see her on set and um kate winsley as well and peter jackson and i

[02:13:12] can also share that the um catering situation on that low budget film was far inferior to my later experience on lord of the rings um just in terms of what was provided for the extras um i also think it's interesting there's sort of a similarity between um shauna and melissa and their sort of closeness and willingness to hurt ben to the two girls that are in heavenly creatures so that's kind

[02:13:38] of a little interesting parallel as well um i went back and watched the the cabin burning down scene and ben is not watching the cabin burn down as we all thought i definitely thought this i had a memory of it but i think that he was watching them in a different part of the episode but when they go to sleep in the cabins being burnt that you don't see him at all but there's also a shot of the girls grabbing cards and books so that answers megan's question um from the podcast um about how they had

[02:14:03] all that stuff and you'd see them shoving stuff into bags before they leave episode six i was very very disturbed it was one of those ones where i watched it right before bed and i felt weird about going to sleep and i kept thinking about all the time that i've thought about as soon as i woke up the force feeding and the killing of ben was so awful to watch uh the top the spooky tie moments with van freaked me out i had a pillow in front of my face um it was so scary so well done

[02:14:30] i think those hikers are not going to last i think that the girls will either chase them in their feasting frenzy and kill them as they run or they might run and then fall into the pit but they're not getting out of there and finally my favorite line was from jeff you know how i feel about the police now bye and when i didn't know that you were in heavenly creatures as well as lord of the rings

[02:14:56] uh my mouth was like wide open i in shock because i'm such a heavenly creatures fan so uh we'll have to talk about that next time we chat which will be soon cool matt king says what was going on at the end were they bird watchers the bear bit was hilarious at least the saga with ben is resolved that's yeah that's looking on the bright side i guess

[02:15:27] uh jeffrey ashton says okay internet people are saying jeff's hands look all scratched up in a scene just before the 12 minute mark and they're like jeff killed lottie because he was acting weird when he learned of her death but come on it's jeff he doesn't have the motive or means to kill lottie it would be odd if lottie scratched the wall before falling down the stairs and also scratched jeff's hands kind of a silly theory except that there is fingernail dna evidence why include that in

[02:15:55] multiple episodes but jeff has a new imposter cat from shauna's new york cat adventure i bet that cat sensing jeff's a dog person who is up to some dishonest cat switching gave him some cat justice seriously these fans see everything but this jeff killed lottie theory is a bit of a stretch though we do need answers about the fingernail scratch dna by the way i'd totally watch a show about jeff's life jeff selling couches calling out bingo numbers fighting with the imposter cat

[02:16:24] working title better call jeff but in all seriousness showing those scratches intentionally is weird i do want to see jeff get more to do besides sit in a hotel room yeah i it's so funny how much i thought jeff was such a limp dishrag in the beginning of season one and how much i love him now he has gotten so much better and this season he hasn't had as much to

[02:16:49] do last season was great for him yeah tam all the way from perth austria says holy shit best intro i can manage i started this episode thinking it would become jeff centric and then suddenly i'm sitting with the best posture fully absorbed zero thinking just holy shit holy shit holy shit on repeat thank the wilderness they made this episode the way it was perfect and i'd say just what we all needed even

[02:17:16] with ben's head on a platter there's so much to say but i'm really just looking forward to hearing what everyone else out there feels too thanks for the great company in this world of tv shows to get us through the mud yeah well put maria lawson says no misty don't do it misty for real misty don't do it he's dead you misty these last two episodes have really gone out with a bang in their last few seconds

[02:17:46] how long has it been full-time bad tie that sounds like a chinese dish full-time bad tie since natalie's death maybe if everyone who knows about the bird watchers is them or dead either way less of them make it to rescue or way more of them have died since they have come home or maybe have faked their deaths i'm not discounting ty being the one to knock off lottie and be terrorizing shauna too

[02:18:15] yeah why does everyone think that ty is bad tie full-time now i i think i think that why because thaisa would not just discount her whole life blowing up like she has oh you know okay like where's her kid where's her wife like she's just like moved on i the scene where they like put the

[02:18:43] card on the street and then followed that dude back to his apartment that disturbed me really deeply and yeah that made me think that dark tie had taken over and she suddenly van is the most important thing to her in the entire world when she didn't exist to her six months ago like something's not

[02:19:07] right there yeah yeah i'm starting to think maybe you're right i don't know um adam mcleod or mcleod i'm not sure says so good the surprise at the end had me laughing my head off i agree it was great alicia stout says i think i have a theory about the heart necklace being that it was also around ben's neck this episode i think that necklace may represent the next victim or sacrifice

[02:19:35] to the wilderness this would explain why adult shauna was so freaked out to see the necklace around callie's neck who knows what lottie was planning to do with her now we'll never know since she's dead could be a reason for shauna to kill her or perhaps she is pairing up with bad tie hmm i do think that seeing the necklace on callie would have put shauna and we saw into a rage yep

[02:20:05] yeah even if it doesn't necessarily mean that it it's been on a lot of people's necks who had gruesome fates and it's just very much connected to all of that so yeah and lottie being like it didn't mean what you thought it meant and and she's like thinks callie has power about her it's all of it is like shauna's like i don't want you so focused on my kid yeah like just the way she said

[02:20:32] get away from my kid get the fuck out of my house i could feel that like yeah i understand that absolutely um casia kathia or kathia writes in one r.i.p ben he didn't deserve it but he needed to die to end his suffering i have mixed emotions theories one i was right in thinking they were closer or were closer to civilization than they thought two the birdwatcher guy is the father

[02:20:57] of walter which would explain why he's so invested three they are officially past the point of no return ben was indeed a bridge a bridge to self-loathing and depravity walter being edwin's that's a new theory i like that one yeah that is a new theory or joel mckale's son i guess people who saw episode six hadn't seen joel mckale yet yeah and last christy bassman says

[02:21:24] this episode destroyed me finally the tie between teen natalie and adult natalie makes sense she spent the rest of her life spiraling from this episode at the end of the episode i was generally creeped out and shocked by that arrival out of nowhere just as they must have been it's best yep yeah like what the fuck several of them just stared like unbelieving travis yeah akila like they couldn't

[02:21:52] make a move yeah like you had to process wait someone else all right that's our show thanks for everyone next up yellow jacket season three episode eight a normal boring life

[02:22:19] this will be a normal boring episode i'm sure yeah uh if you want to write in or send us a voice message about that you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com while you're there be sure to check out our other shows what are you guys digging lately i mean every time i finish up white lotus a white lotus podcast it's my instinct to mention yellow jackets because i feel like those

[02:22:42] are maybe the two shows that we do that pair together just because they're kind of adult and non-genre so anyway yeah that's my way of saying check out welcome to the white lotus yeah and i think they're two shows that are very well thought out yeah with excellent production values like production values writing well made acting um and the podcasts are doing pretty well for both of

[02:23:09] those i when i type in yellow jackets in um apple podcast yellow jackets wtf comes second which is great and um white lotus also comes in second after the hbo podcast we're the first we'll have to put some heart necklaces on them and we'll send them in the mail with a tape of us screaming yeah and we have so much good stuff coming really soon yeah i'm so excited for the last of us to

[02:23:39] come back i can't wait yeah i'm i'm kind of scared about handmaid's tale this year i know yeah it's gonna be intense yeah to watch yep it's gonna be a support group everybody yeah handmaid's tale yeah group therapy all right that's our show thanks for listening everybody buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz