52: "Full Circle" (S3E10)

[00:00:10] I've tried for years to remember what happened out there, to understand why it seemed like I couldn't remember so much of it, why none of us could. I'm finally starting to realize we can't remember it because at some point we became so alive in that place that we lost our capacity for self-reflection. The trauma people say survivors forget things

[00:00:39] to protect themselves because they were so horrible. But I think we can't or won't remember it clearly because we recognize deep down that we were having so much fun. That's the terrible truth we left out there buried, along with the people we called our friends.

[00:01:03] Except it's all coming back to me now. The danger, the thrill, the person I was back then. Not a wife or a mother. I was a warrior. I was a fucking queen.

[00:01:24] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Daphne. And this is Yellowjackets What The Fuck? Episode 52. This week we'll be covering the Season 3 Episode 10 Full Circle. Yeah, it really was.

[00:01:52] I think so. I mean that's how I, what I took away. I feel like we got a lot of answers. I just didn't want to believe it. Like, I don't know why, but something in my brain would not let me believe that we have gotten to the Antler Queen, you know, Pit Girl scene. The title was there. It just really had to club me over the head before I finally was like, oh, okay, this is it. This is it.

[00:02:19] Yeah, and it was definitely going in that direction, but I still was like, no. No, they're not going to give it to us yet. Only when Mari started taking off her clothes. Same. That's when I was like, okay, this is it. And then when you think back, okay, they showed us how the pit got there. They showed us how the spikes got there. They've really been setting it up all season. But with the, I guess just how green it was, it just didn't feel like it.

[00:02:43] But even when they wake up in the morning, sorry to jump right into this, but when they wake up in the morning and you see the layer of snow, even then I was like, okay, but it's still a different hunt. I just wouldn't let myself go. Yeah, me too. Same. Yeah. Interesting. When I watched the episode the first time, it was very much, I was in disbelief in watching parts of it. I'm like, really? Really? Okay. I'm not ready to podcast on this yet because I don't want to watch it again to do the prep.

[00:03:12] So we'll just wait till it's time. Yeah, for sure. Well, what did you think of it, Daphne? Did you like it? I really liked this episode, but I have enjoyed most of this season. And I think it may not be perfect, but I feel like it has been very intense. And it upped the stakes in a lot of places that I wasn't sure that they were going to do at this point.

[00:03:42] I know they were looking like at a five season thing. And so I wasn't sure what we were going to get in this finale, but in the episodes leading up to it, we got a lot of tension, a lot of like stress. Even from the beginning of the season, we got the tension between some of the teen characters. I feel like this finale really delivered. I'm not sure what the listeners are going to think about it.

[00:04:05] But for me, it left me excited for what comes next and hopeful. Hopeful that something comes next. Yeah. And kind of traumatized in some way of watching Mari, who we've seen over this season, like just be a bigger character and be more out there.

[00:04:35] And be awesome and fun to watch. Participant, yeah. And have it revealed that she is indeed Pit Girl was a lot. I found myself actually pretty sad about that because I, you know, the fighting between her and Shauna was a lot to deal with, like to watch.

[00:04:58] And, but I found myself rooting for her because I thought Shauna was just getting to go too far off the rails. Yeah. There's so much that I have to say about this episode, but yes, overall I did really enjoy it. And I think it's a good closer for the season. Yeah, I agree. It makes me nervous because we haven't heard anything about a new season.

[00:05:25] Hopefully by the time you're hearing my voice, maybe they will have announced something, but when we're recording this, they haven't. And it felt like where, and I don't know anything about this. I'm just, what it felt like is the writers going, well, we haven't gotten renewed, so let's give this an ending. So it could be the ending to the whole thing, even though it's not satisfying enough for that, but it still felt like that, you know? That's exactly what I thought.

[00:05:50] They left it open-ended, so it would be a somewhat satisfying ending if it ends here, but also they have somewhere to go if it gets picked up. It's so hard for me to believe they would cancel this show, Showtime. But it does worry me similarly. A little bit. I mean, I know, you'll hear in the news, they have plans for more, so they don't want to end it. Good. I, you, Daphne, you were saying you liked this whole season. So did I.

[00:06:19] I really liked this season a lot. The only weird thing about it maybe is somebody had said, oh, I was surprised you guys weren't more broken up about Van dying last time. And I'm like, well, we were, but it's gotten to a level of far outness. And I think, you know, I've always said it felt like a dark comedy to me, but it just feels a little bit far out to me where it doesn't hit me as deeply anymore.

[00:06:47] But it's still like a must watch. Like, I love it. I'm totally entertained by it. I'm fascinated by it. But it just feels a little bit removed, I guess, from my day-to-day reality or something that it doesn't impact me as much. I mean, I like Lauren Ambrose. I was more sad about losing her than anything. I think part of it for me is this. Because we record the episode and then I go and watch it, I have some time to process the deaths before we record.

[00:07:16] And so when I do my rewatch, I've already processed or thought, you know, I don't have that emotional feeling as much as I do when I'm watching it in the moment. So maybe I should need to do that better, capturing it in my notes or something. Like right away. Because it did hit you, huh? When Van Dyke. It did. It did.

[00:07:37] Because what it made me think is we've lost the adult characters who had good in them. Like any good, any good semblance of right or wrong. We lost Travis. We've lost adult Natalie. We lost Lottie. And we lost Van. And what we have left are Melissa, Shauna, Misty, and Ty.

[00:08:07] To me, they're the darkest of the teen characters. If you look at it, if you look back to them as teenagers and where they are now, to me, they're the darkest. And I think Van represented the light. You know, she wasn't perfect. And in this episode, we really got to see what she did out there that had consequences. Yeah.

[00:08:34] She resisted some of the darker things as a teen and as an adult. I guess the only place where I might not agree so much is Lottie. I think Lottie's pretty dark. But otherwise, I hear what you're saying. She is. But I also think that there is – I felt like there was still something good in her.

[00:08:54] I just think that she also was dealing with some psychological issues that contributed to her demeanor, I guess, and actions. Well, Wendy, what did you think about this one? I've really liked this season. And I recognize that it's polarizing. I was just telling them that my daughter ranted to me for like an hour about how she doesn't like this season.

[00:09:22] So I can see where it's polarizing. Like, people have ideas about the characters. And when they don't do what they expect, they get upset about that. And I think I've had to kind of put a lot of that aside. And putting that aside, I love – I've just loved the rocketing action of this season. And, again, a little bit worried about getting a fourth season.

[00:09:50] I almost think this season could have easily been two seasons. There's so much that happened. And it went so quickly. In a good way. Like, I don't think it was skipping over pieces that we – that missing them was bad for the season. And certainly all the seasons were, like, packed. There wasn't a lot of filler at all. So I loved this season. Season's good, yeah. But it's fast.

[00:10:19] And I loved the finale. I loved watching it wrap up. I have some more things to talk about that when we get into our points. But I couldn't wait to watch it. I was very satisfied with it. I wonder if when you say people don't like it when characters go or they don't expect, you're talking about Shauna. Because for me, that's kind of like, yeah, this is exactly what I expected and I love it. Yeah. I think several of them.

[00:10:48] Yeah. Like, it feels similar in some ways to Game of Thrones where we get so attached to the characters and we want them to be something. But then they show us that they're something different. And we don't like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've always been pretty good about not being like that because I love flawed characters.

[00:11:12] And so when characters don't act like heroes sometimes, I think it's more interesting. Yeah. And I think you have to kind of let go of, I want this person to do this. And if they don't do it, I'm going to be upset about it. Yeah. And kind of let it take you. Let them tell you. You can theorize or guess, but don't be so invested in somebody doing something in a particular way. And that's not to say that people don't have a right to their opinions.

[00:11:41] And no, I know. And I know what that is. Like, I get more upset about the opposite where if, you know, we're kind of talking about if there's a character that you want to be their best selves, you know, and they don't. People get upset. For me, like I'm thinking about Negan on The Walking Dead. Like he, they did turn him into a hero. And that upsets me because I don't think he is. Yeah. And I think that's not true to his character. But you're right.

[00:12:06] I think you're better off if you can, if you can, of just taking the ride wherever the show wants to take you. And then if you don't like it a lot, step off, you know. Yeah. And podcasting on it usually makes you like something more. Yeah. And so I feel like we all have that. We're watching it two and three times. We're researching. We're going back to scenes. We're doing all these things.

[00:12:30] Just similarly, like I haven't liked this season of White Lotus as much as I've liked the other seasons. And I've watched all but a half hour of the remaining finale. And I'm thinking I'm going to come out of the season feeling the same way. But when I listen to you guys' podcasts, it makes me like it more. But I probably don't like it as much as you guys do because you're so invested in it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I'm loving it so much. And I love the finale too. But yeah, I know. It's true.

[00:13:00] When I podcast about something, I usually like it more. There's that rare exception where I've podcasted about it and I'm like, oh, I like it even less now. I'm noticing all these flaws. But most of the time. Because you really appreciate it. You get into all the little details and you understand more. Oh, this is what they're going for. I get it now. You know? Yeah. You're immersed in the world. You're immersed in the characters. And I think that we all in some way want the characters to do the right thing.

[00:13:28] But in some cases, they're not going to. But I mean, I'll say like this show more and more, it is really harder to like the characters. It is. And then I remember feeling like on Breaking Bad as Walter White became a worse and worse person that I was thankful to have Jesse Peakman if you watch that show to like. You know? And with this show, I still, I don't know, man.

[00:13:57] And even when they do bad things, for some reason, I still do have affection for them. Even Shauna this season. More adult Shauna. But, you know, because they just had trauma that they've been through. So you can kind of excuse some of it. At least that's how I feel. Well, and we're still learning exactly what the trauma was. We're still learning all the pieces and things that they went through out there. There's all of that. There's more that we haven't seen.

[00:14:23] Also, when they came back, there have been comments about what they did when they came back. And that being not great also. Yeah. So I'm really intrigued at, okay, what else? Because we knew about Pit Girl. We didn't know the backstory of how we got to Pit Girl. But we knew that Pit Girl existed right from the very first episode.

[00:14:47] And now, you know, the answers that are coming may not be the answers that everyone wants. But they're the answers that came from the brains of the people who created the show. And I do get the sense that they've had a really strong vision. And they've taken some detours. And there's been some surprises that they didn't anticipate. But for the most part, for me, it feels like, yeah, they knew what the show was going to be the whole time.

[00:15:15] And if you go back and read interviews that they did before it even started, it's like, yeah, that's how it's playing out. Yeah, it is. It may not be what everyone wants. But this is what they planned. This is what they wanted. And I know there has been some discussion about, well, it seems like they're going in different directions or they don't know what they want to do. I think this finale is kind of the exclamation point on the whole season that pulls it all together.

[00:15:42] And it says, okay, you may have thought that, but this is, we were getting to this point. And this is where we are. And we're set up for next season. And I'm, yeah, I'm good with it. I know, again, some of our listeners may not agree. And I get it. And I'm glad that we all can agree to disagree on some things. And we're all entitled to opinions. Absolutely.

[00:16:12] And that's why we like to hear from you. Yeah. Good, bad, ugly. Yeah. That's true. I'm glad you said that. All right. Well, let's get into the episode. What was your, Daphne, what was your fucked up moment of the week? Oh, my God. What fucked up moment of the week to bring to the table? There's so many things, honestly. Okay. So I'm going to go with this one just because I'm curious what you guys came up with, too.

[00:16:38] Let's just go full Shauna, teen Shauna, asking them to cut Mari's hair and bring her her hair. Bring me her hair. I mean, right from the first- And not just the lock. She took all of her hair, right? She took all of her hair. That is something you do when you're fighting an enemy. You get their head. Yeah. And to me, that was excessive. And it really is showing how far over the edge Shauna has gotten.

[00:17:08] She is gone. From the beginning, she is gone. It's full-on, like, primitive, tribal- It is. Yeah. And I don't think Shauna wants to go home. Honestly, I don't. She doesn't. The one clue is that she said, we're not going home. Yeah. And then sabotaged all their efforts to do so. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, I have to go with that. There are other things that were pretty fucked up, too.

[00:17:35] But that one, to me, she was- that was an enemy. She looked at Mari like an enemy. Yeah. And like a trophy. Mm-hmm. The scalping or something. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, that's serial killer shit. It is. It is. Okay, Wendy. The scene that really sticks with me is when they were cooking up Mari, and they were all sitting around the fire eating it.

[00:18:02] And Jen, you just saw Jen in profile, because her and Mari were very close. And she just had tears streaming down. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure she ate her, because if she didn't, she'd be at risk. Mm-hmm. I'm sure she did. Yeah. And just how horrifying that had to be for her. She didn't want to play that game. It wasn't her idea. She wasn't given a choice not to. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:30] And Mari died, and then was cooked, and she was forced basically to eat her. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the scene that like first and second watch really got me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And any of them could still be alive now, we know, except for Hannah, right? She's the only one. Well, I thought they said Jen was dead, right? They said Jen and Melissa were dead. Oh, they did. Right. Yeah. But of course, Melissa wasn't. So who knows? Yeah. True. Yeah.

[00:19:01] It'd be kind of weird if Jen also faked her death, though. Yeah. Mine was, I mean, I didn't even have to think twice about this. It was Lottie and Akilah conspiring to force a hunt by having Akilah kill all her animals. And then Lottie saying, we got too arrogant. It is unhappy with us. We have to prove our faithfulness. It wants blood. It wants blood. It wants blood.

[00:19:31] Just like making up this fake situation in order to have a hunt where you kill one of your friends and eat them. That is so fucked up. I have never heard of anything more fucked up than that in my life. You know, that whole thing really made me wonder like the true purpose of it because the people that were standing

[00:19:53] around, I just wondered, was that really to force a hunt or was it to force cover for Natalie to get away? Are you talking about Akilah? Akilah killing the animals? Yeah. I thought Akilah killed the animals so that they would be forced into a hunt so Natalie could get away. Yeah.

[00:20:21] Maybe I'm wrong, but Lottie and Akilah weren't the ones that wanted to go home. No, Akilah wanted to go home. They all wanted to go home. Akilah was on team Nat. All of them wanted to go. Well, but when they were- Except for Shauna. Yeah. When they were broke up into two groups, Akilah was with Nat, right? I don't think so. Wait. No, Akilah wanted to go home. Oh, she did? Okay. She said, remember? She said, if we have to be here another winter, I hope it chooses me first.

[00:20:51] Oh, you're right. Okay. Yeah. So you think, okay, well, maybe I'm wrong then. Maybe Lottie thought it was to bring on a hunt. Yeah. And it was. It was, but not- But Akilah had the secondary motivation to get Nat away. Well, shoot. Yeah. I was under the impression that Lottie put her up to that because Lottie wants- I mean, she seemed to know about it, right? She seemed to know that it wasn't genuine.

[00:21:17] This is who Akilah told about the hunt. Melissa, Mari, and Jen. Okay. Yeah, that's how I took it. Because I brought it down. Yeah. Right. They wove so many of these little things into other stuff that I had trouble with my notes because I was like, oh, this should be here. And yeah, because it was all interwoven.

[00:21:46] Like questions and answers were coming in the same episode. So Lottie actually thought that the animals died? I think she did. I thought so. I don't do. So- Hmm. Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm kind of embarrassed because I think maybe I was wrong about it, but I want to go back and- Well, you should just watch it three more times. I'm not sure. I know. Yeah. Okay. I think that Akilah, this was a huge sacrifice on her part. Oh, yeah.

[00:22:15] Yeah. No matter what. That goat was an adult goat. I mean- They were her babies. They were her babies. Yeah. Like she- Yeah. But yeah, if she did it in order to try to get, provide cover for Nat to go call, then that's different than what I was thinking. And I think you're right. I think she did do it for that. So that's, yeah, that's, I mean, it's fucked up for her. So it's still a fucked up moment of the week, but not as fucked up as I thought it was.

[00:22:46] I mean, it goes against Akilah's loving nature of taking care of animals. This was a really big deal. She poisoned her animals like that's what she did. And that is not like her. But again, I feel like they didn't have a choice. Shauna was never going to let them go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On first watch, I thought it was out of character for Akilah and Mary to be like, yeah, we should have a hunt. Yeah.

[00:23:14] And I was like, wait, that sounds weird out of those two. And so it did make sense to me later. Yeah. Yeah. They were just using it as cover. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, let's put that aside and get into our points. Stephanie, you want to go first? Okay. So I'll go first. Now, do I want to rip the Band-Aid off or ease into it? That's the question.

[00:23:41] So I'm going to rip the Band-Aid off and we are going to start with what I'm calling the luck of the draw, which is also a fucked up moment of the week candidate for me. Yeah. Ty and Van and that whole thing. I mean, Van has always been a believer in Lottie's wilderness thing.

[00:24:06] But I think that in this episode, she's definitely one that wanted to go home. Despite the fact we know her home life isn't simple, Van really wanted to go home. And we talked, I think, in the last episode or the one before about how Thaisa said to her, well, you're getting good at the cards. That's why you've been practicing with the cards.

[00:24:31] So we know that this hunt was pushed and Thaisa talks Van into, you know, playing with the cards. Well, you know, Van doesn't want to hunt. She doesn't want to do that. She doesn't want someone else to die. And Thaisa points out, well, it doesn't have to be one of our teammates. It can be Hannah.

[00:24:54] And so somehow Van manipulates the cards to make sure that Hannah would be the one that was drawn. Shauna figures out something's up and stands in the right place so that Mari ends up being the person because Mari is standing beside Hannah. If Shauna hadn't moved, it would have been Hannah.

[00:25:21] And Shauna goes and stands in her place. In her place. I think she knew what was going to happen. I think she knew what they were going to do. Yeah. At one point, I think she's, because my thought was the same, that she deduced that they were probably going to be aiming for Hannah. And so she stood in a place to offset it by one and get Mari instead. And she's headed out for Mari.

[00:25:46] But I think she did say to Ty later on, who were you trying to get or something like that? Yeah, because she knew. She figured it out. Well, if you knew who she was trying to get, then it doesn't quite make sense that she would ask who she was trying to get if she already knew. Right. Right. She did know. I think she wanted Ty to admit it. Oh, okay. That what they were doing was going after Hannah. And then Dark Ty was like, step off. Yeah. I liked that part.

[00:26:13] I'm like, I'm glad somebody's standing up to her because no one else is. They're all afraid of her. Mm-hmm. That made me mad. Like, so you believe enough in the wilderness to stop everybody from leaving. Right? Because Ty was the person that joined in that kind of gave it a lot of leverage, which then, of course, made Van do it too.

[00:26:41] So you believed in it enough then, but you're stacking the deck. Like, I didn't like that at all. Yeah. Not that it wasn't real. You know? I think it was real. I just thought you're- What do you mean it was real? I mean, like, it was believable to me. I just didn't like that they did that. Yeah. It was cheating with someone's life. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:11] And all, honestly, I'm not surprised, Sean, I figured out something was going on because all you had to do was look at Van's face. I mean, she- So good. That actress. She was so- Van was so just terrified and devastated. She didn't want to be doing it, yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:38] Well, and she didn't think it was going to go that way. Yeah. No. I think Sean knew exactly what was happening. Yeah. And she knew exactly who she was giving that card to. Yeah, and then she smirked and was like, oh, tough break, Mar. Oh, yeah. Exactly. She wanted- Sean wanted to take Mari out. Yep. They have not gotten along. All season. It was in her head. She wanted to get rid of her.

[00:28:06] And I feel like, looking back now, the very first episode, when we see Sean bite her and then spit in her food, and then just knowing, okay, Sean is the antler queen and Mari's pit girl. Yeah. It puts that all in a whole different light. It all does. If you go back and re-watch the whole season, I'm sure that watching those earlier episodes, they're going to hit different now, knowing what we know. And we've been debating, let's be honest.

[00:28:35] We've been debating over who antler queen is for three seasons. Been debating over pit girl for three seasons. Mari was always on the list to be pit girl. Shauna has always been in the discussion to be the antler queen. Yep. I have definitely thought it was going to be Mari since they started showcasing Mari last season. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That would have probably been my biggest guess.

[00:29:01] I don't think they knew it was Mari from the start, the writers. No. Because they've said, it's in the news here, but they saw how she was doing, the actress, and liked it. So they started giving her more and they liked it. So she became a more prominent character this season. So that's kind of why I think they weren't sure who it was going to be. But I do think they knew from the beginning that Shauna was going to be the antler queen. Oh, yeah.

[00:29:31] I mean, I think this honestly is Shauna's story. Me too. This whole thing is Shauna's story. Yeah. If there's any main character of the show, I think it's her. It's her. I agree. I mean, and Melanie Linsky, both Melanie Linsky and Sophie Nellis have absolutely killed it this season. Oh, yeah. Figuratively.

[00:29:54] They have really just amped things up even higher than what it was before. And I, yeah. I would imagine these are tough roles to play. Yeah. But good meaty roles, so to speak. Yeah.

[00:30:16] And I have to agree, Liv Hewson, who plays Teen Van, they've killed it this season. Always, though. As well. Always. Always. Last episode, too. Like, the emotional connection that you get between them and Lauren Ambrose is, it's just, it's amazing. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:46] So, yeah. The whole luck of the draw and the way that things played out. There were different things, though, that happened during the hunt that gave even more information. Travis's little, I think he's high again, speech about, don't you ever wonder whose reality we're in? I'm pretty sure that some of my thoughts are Javi's thoughts. My favorite thoughts are Jackie's.

[00:31:15] The slumber party makeouts. The jealousy. The betrayal. So, I, it made me wonder, the makeouts were Shauna and Jackie making out at slumber parties? Maybe? I kind of thought what he was saying is that it's all so juvenile and high school, you know? Yeah. But I wasn't sure, and obviously he's just off the deep end. Like, he's just surviving.

[00:31:45] Yeah. It sounds too like, because so in this episode, there, you know, we're going to talk about it, but we see adult Ty take a bite out of Van's heart, I think. Right? Oh, yes. And it reminds me of that thing.

[00:32:02] We've probably talked about it on the podcast before, where in some cultures, they will, like warrior tribal cultures, they would eat organs of either people they've conquered or even loved ones that have passed to try to, like, bring some of their spirit into them. And I think that's kind of what Ty was doing. And I've always thought. Travis did it with Javi. Travis did it. He says, I'm thinking Javi's thought. I think that's kind of what that reminded me of anyway. Yeah.

[00:32:30] And he also ate some of Jackie, and now he's talking about Jackie's thoughts, right? And also just Shauna, you know, she's the first one. She took a bite of Jackie's ear, and then she was the first one to bite into Jackie during the big feast. And she's really channeling Jackie to a greater extreme a lot of the time. So I feel like that's a theme of this show, where when you eat someone, you start to – they're a part of you. Well, who knows how many other people they've eaten.

[00:33:00] We don't know. I mean, at this point. We only know what they've shown us so far. Other things. Shauna picking up Mari's pants and sneakers and smelling them like she is a bloodhound? I don't even notice that. Oh, my God. What? Why did Mari – I didn't quite get why Mari took off some clothes. What good would that do?

[00:33:29] To blend in with the snow. To blend in. Because she was wearing this bright track jacket, yeah. Yeah. Now, I think that was kind of crazy because it was really cold outside and snowy. But they had to get her in that night. Into pit girl mode, yeah. Even if you took the jacket off, would you really take the pants off? Come on. No. No. You wouldn't – the pants were very light. They were not bright colored. They were like a pink color. Maybe if you were that amped up, you wouldn't notice the cold. Yeah.

[00:33:58] Well, and I can only imagine you're – I've never been chased by teenage girls trying to kill me that I know of. And Mari was pit girl again. I mean, she was pit girl for Ben ages ago. Earlier. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Second time in that pit. Yep. And there's two things about that. I don't know that they knew that Travis laid that trap that way.

[00:34:26] I'm not sure that they did because Shauna wanted it filled in. Yeah. Take out the spikes and fill it in. I don't think they realized it. And Lottie even says to Mari, you've been here already, Mari. You could let it be different. I don't know if she meant you could go a different way and not be impaled or what she was trying to get at.

[00:34:54] Or some crazy, like, we've been through this moment many times before because I repeat time or something. I didn't understand what she was saying. None of them seemed surprised though, right? Yeah. None of them seemed surprised that there were spikes in the pit, that Mari fell in the pit. None of them seemed surprised about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:20] So the wilderness has made its choice tonight. Prepare her for tonight. Yeah. And Natalie, please do the honors. That I didn't know it the first time through. The second time through, of course, I knew. That was definitely not Natalie. Yeah, right. You know what was interesting to me about The Hunt because now we're seeing it.

[00:35:48] We saw it in the pilot, but now we're seeing it knowing all the characters. And not only that, but we know that because we've seen a lot of teen drama in this show. And The Hunt was just as filled with teen drama as anything else. We didn't know it then. We thought it was just a bunch of savages chasing a poor girl. But within this group, there are all these alliances and people tricking each other and trying not wanting to be doing this hunt.

[00:36:15] And all these different interpersonal dynamics happening that we didn't know anything about before. So I thought that was interesting. Well, and just how hard is anyone hunting? Because I'm not sure some of them were really hunting very hard, I think. Yeah. Well, Jen, she was actively trying to sabotage it. Exactly. Akilah, I don't believe, was hunting very hard. Mm-hmm. So I think that in reality, they weren't hunting very hard. Shauna was. Yeah. But.

[00:36:45] Yeah, who else was? Was anybody else? I mean, they were all out there. Mm-hmm. Melissa was more interested in attacking Shauna than hunting. I know. She was the one that got the closest to be able to deliver a beat down but didn't follow through with it. That is interesting. You're right. Like, none of them really have their hearts in it except for Shauna and Mari did herself in by accident. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:14] And I think that, again, with Melissa, she didn't follow through with Shauna. But then she, you know, 25 years later, ends up killing adult Van because she does go through but that, like, actually does do it. Yeah, she's very vicious. Yeah. The last thing I'll say about it is after the feast, we get to see Misty smiling. And we see her do that in the first episode.

[00:37:41] Like, she's kind of smiling after the feast. And now we kind of know what it's about. It's because Natalie got away. Right. It makes sense now. Yeah. It's not eerie like we thought. It's more triumphant. Yeah. Lots of reasons. Anyway, that, yeah, I ripped the Band-Aid off. Let's talk about what it is. We get to see, I mean, we got to see the whole process.

[00:38:09] Like, they count to 30, all of that. Like, all of the little things that they do. They strip them off from their warmest clothes, their capes, which I guess are ceremonial. Yeah. Another thing that's interesting. So this is what we've been building to, this hunt that we saw in the pilot and this cannibal hunt. And it seemed so crazy. And it still does. But now that we've seen the series, we've seen how they've sort of incrementally built up to it.

[00:38:37] Because they started off at Doomcoming, really, where they were all drugged up and chasing each other. But it was kind of vicious, but it was more a fun thing, you know? And they've just progressively gotten more wild. And it's interesting to me how rituals like this, you know, going back in history, they start off as just something that somebody thought, hey, this will be fun. And then it turned into a regular thing.

[00:39:05] And then it can take on more meaning or it can get more nefarious or vicious. Or it reminds me of how people, politicians who want to do things that they don't think everybody's going to be on board with, they'll say it as if they're joking at first. And people are like, ah, they're just joking. And then, you know, it's really just to sort of ease you into something. So then the next time it's a little bit worse until the next thing you know, you're chasing a girl into a pit or something.

[00:39:35] Well, I mean, it's cultish if you think about it. Like with cults that they very slowly will bring you in and indoctrinate you. And then a year later, you're wondering, why am I here standing over someone? Yeah. How did I get to this point? Right. Why do I have a fucked up moment of the week every week now? Okay. My turn? Sure. Yes, go for it. First one, Callie and Lottie and It.

[00:40:05] So Misty finds Callie under the bleachers at school. Was she smoking a doobie? What was she doing? She had a pipe. She was vaping or something. Vaping. Yeah. That's what the kids do these days. And the picture on Lottie's phone was of Callie. So Misty deduced that Callie's the one that killed Lottie. And I love that little bit about they thought it was Shauna's DNA and Lottie's fingernails,

[00:40:34] but it was Callie's because this mother and daughter, they share mitochondrial DNA. And she said it was an accident and hasn't told anyone. And I thought, oh, wow. You went through that whole thing with your mom and dad taking you to a hotel because Lottie died. And they thought that meant someone was trying to kill Shauna and you're the one that killed Lottie and you didn't say anything, even knowing that your parents have been through some shit and they might actually understand, especially given that it was an accident.

[00:41:03] I was like, you'd think she might tell them just to ease their suffering because they're so freaked out by everything that's going on. But then again, I guess you might just be freaked out and not want to let anyone know. Or she learned from her mother. From her mom. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, yeah. But I kind of want to go back now and see if Callie ever let on in any way, subtly. There were people online who thought Callie did it.

[00:41:34] Ryan definitely has been saying Callie for episodes. Yeah. And I couldn't see it. No. I mean, we on the podcast, I think listeners have said that and we're like, oh, no, I don't. I hate it when he's right, but he is right frequently. Definitely. So then we find out she went to ask Lottie about the tape, thinking correctly that she'd probably taking it. And then so she goes to her father's place, right?

[00:41:59] And there's this industrial hallway lined with candles. And isn't that what we saw Lottie kind of hallucinating in season one? It looked pretty similar. Right? Yes. Yeah. And so I don't know what to think about this because when you saw that, you know, it's a mystery. You wonder what it's going to be. And it turns out she was just remembering her home.

[00:42:28] And she knew that at the time in season one, but we didn't know. We thought, oh, she's in some strange place. But then it's like, why do you have this industrial hallway at your home that has candles that are lit all the time? Do you go in there and light 50 candles every day? And you have like this supply? I mean, I'm probably thinking too hard, but it was just like, what is this for? You know? Yeah. I can understand that.

[00:42:58] It felt like maybe the writers were setting up a different mystery and now they decided, oh, we don't want to go there. So we'll just answer it as this. I don't know. Well, for a while in season one, we were thinking it was some underground bunker in the woods. Like a lost kind of a thing or something. Yeah. And that's not what it was. It's basically this hotel place that she has been thinking about because she lives in a building. And to me, it just seems more like a giant hotel. Okay. Like there's a bunch of apartments and stuff. Yeah.

[00:43:27] Like it's not a hotel, but to me, I always picture a hotel. It's just basically penthouse and other apartments. And maybe she just, that was her space and she just likes candles. Well, I mean, the guy at the front desk knew her, gave her lollipops. Lottie pops. Lottie pops. Lottie pops. So my favorite part of all this though, is Lottie. She's like, oh, you're here because you want to understand your mother.

[00:43:56] And Callie's like, I look into her eyes and they're just so cold. It's like, and she goes, it's like looking straight into the earth. Callie's like, what is that? And Lottie's like, well, you know what it is. It's it. You know it. You feel it right now. I could see that the first moment I met you holding that gun. And when you drugged Misty, that was it. And your mother, she felt it more strongly than the rest of us. And she sees it growing in you. And Callie's like, so like adrenaline, it's more than that. It undergirds everything. It's the pulse of life.

[00:44:26] It's why we did what we did out there. So to undergird something is like to secure or fasten it from the underside. And I, I think, um, well, Lottie says it's why we couldn't stop. And she goes, you mean eating each other? And she goes and hunting each other and all those thrilling, terrible things. And I think she's talking about, we've talked about this kind of before, but animal instinct. And, and in an early interview about the show, Ashley Lyle, the show, one of the showrunners

[00:44:53] said Lord of the flies is about how socialization falls away and how society is a facade. We thought who is more socialized than women as girls. You learn early on how to make people like you and what the social hierarchies are. It's more interesting way of having things fall away. The mask is even thicker. It's a more layered amount of preconceived notions of how to behave and act. But I think it's interesting because I think the idea is that they always had this animal

[00:45:20] instinct as we all do, but it's sort of covered over, like she said, with a thick layer of socialization, you know, what socially acceptable behavior, but it does undergird it. It's still there. And in these hierarchies with teenage girls, they can be really savage, but it's in a more like bullying way with their words and their body language and who they invite and don't invite and things like that. But there's still, you could say this kind of a savage hierarchy to it.

[00:45:48] And then when they're out in the wilderness, there's no, that social structure is gone. So they can feel free to externalize all that savagery. And I think that's what this it is that Lottie seems to love so much and talk about. And, and so I just, I think that's kind of the idea of the show and why it's about, it is Shauna as the main character, because at home, Jackie knew how to navigate the social

[00:46:17] structure and be the top dog. And Shauna was jealous of her and wanted to have that much power and attention and whatever. But out in the wilderness, Shauna is the top dog because she's the fiercest. And when you're allowed to let it go free, she was the most powerful. She had the, she had the most rage, you know, and that's why she did the leader.

[00:46:40] She had a lot of anger and frustration, like frustration that had built up over time due to what she was going through in her life and, and how she felt about things. Being out there just was like a Pandora's box that opened for her. And she's a fucking queen, as she says at the end, like she misses it. So then, I mean, I, I, all that stuff I found fascinating and there's sense in it, but then

[00:47:09] she kind of starts going off the rails. She says, it doesn't matter what's on the tape. It brought you here to me. It's child, our child. You're the child of that place. It took our baby and gave us you. And so then it's like, what? And it seems like Lottie, maybe you have more understanding of what she's saying, but to me, it seems like she thinks this, this spirit of the wilderness or it, which I see as an

[00:47:34] externalized representation of this animal instinct or primal nature or whatever, that somehow Callie is a child of that and linked to Lottie rather than Shauna as a, as a mother figure. Yeah. Callie says, I don't know what you're talking about. And Lottie goes, but you will, when it's power starts to flow through you, when your will and it's will become one in the same. And I just think she's always trying to get people to be violent. She wanted Shauna to kill Travis and June coming.

[00:48:03] She staged this hunt at the end of season two to try to, you know, give up another sacrifice. And she's ready for the hunt in this final episode too. She's saying the wilderness wants us to give up one of our own. And so she's always pushing for that. And she says, you, you, you only could have come here. I've been waiting 25 years. She can't love you because she's jealous. You're just like her, but more.

[00:48:30] And then Callie shoves her to her death, kind of proving a point, you know, right in that moment. I might have shoved her too, though. Yeah, I know. But I mean, down the stairs, though, I mean, I would just say fuck you and walk away, honestly. Yeah. I am really conflicted about the whole. If she's right about Callie. Yeah. Like the self-defense, like what Jeff tries to tell Callie later. Well, I think Jeff is biased. Like that's his baby. He is. Oh, yeah.

[00:48:59] He's being a great dad. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think she could have walked away. And she didn't want to hear any of that. She was really upset. You know, like the her words really upset her and hurt her. Yeah. But I think, I think that, of course, the writers expect a lot of us to be like, no, Lottie was full of shit. And there's nothing like that with Callie and Jeff is right.

[00:49:28] But there's supposed to be that seed of doubt where you're like, maybe she does have this sort of savage nature like her mom. Well, yeah. I think given that she did it, like she didn't. She had a moment and she pushed her. Yeah. Like she could have walked away. It was a very Shauna moment. Yeah. She just took, you know, she took control of the situation and did it. Yeah.

[00:49:57] I'm not defending her. No. It's going to sound like I am. But I don't think she meant to kill her. I think she was reacting to everything she was saying and just struck. But if someone's standing on the edge of a stairwell and you push them really hard, it's probably not going to be good. Yes, I agree. But I think it was just a big impulse reaction. Again, that doesn't make it okay. No.

[00:50:25] No, I don't think she meant to kill her either. Yeah. No. But, you know, it's still like reckless. But I understand it. I mean, yeah, it wasn't thought about it. Lottie, I would have been pissed at her for saying any of that too. Like, get away from me.

[00:50:43] But one question I have about the whole thing is I didn't notice Lottie's ever like her fingernails digging at Callie to be able to get her DNA under fingernails. No. So I don't get that. I still think Walter could be lying. I don't trust Walter at all. And just happened to be right, sort of right. Yeah. It just, yeah, it's kind of, yeah, I'm not sure about that.

[00:51:13] Was it a flub, the show flubbed or something? No, I don't think so. No. I just, I think Callie definitely pushed her. Like, I think Callie caused Lottie to die. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But what I'm saying is, was it a mistake on the production of the show that they didn't have a moment where, because when she pushed Lottie, I think Lottie's arms just went up, you know? She didn't like grab at her or anything. They did. They did.

[00:51:42] Yeah. And Misty had noticed scratch marks in the wall. And I don't know what that meant. Yeah. So. It feels like they, they didn't stage it correctly. Yeah. I mean, maybe there's something more that we don't know yet. Maybe Callie thinks she killed her. Maybe she really didn't. Maybe someone came after. I mean, that wouldn't be the first time that happened on a TV series.

[00:52:13] Hmm. Well, I don't know. I don't think so, though. I think we have the killer. Her DNA could have got under fingernails. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that. But it also, if you think about it and you think about the way this show is done, would they make a mistake like that? You wouldn't think so. I don't think so. I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, I thought I liked the whole sequence. It was pretty good reveal.

[00:52:42] So let's move on to another point. Wendy, your turn. All right. I'm going to go back to the pit girl scene. Back to the pit. I, this is the moment that we've all been waiting for, right? We've been waiting for since when? I think I did the math. It was over 1,200 days. We've been waiting to find out how this all goes down.

[00:53:07] I actually lined up the pilot scenes with the pit girl scenes and they are all different. I believe that they shot the entire sequence very similarly, but differently. In many of the scenes, there's a little bit of a different background. Things like that. In some of the scenes, they really replicated it.

[00:53:32] Like in the final scene when Misty takes off her mask and put her glasses on and smiles. That was a reshoot. A reshoot. Well, I think all of them are reshoots. I don't think they used the original footage at all. They're all they did are shot for shot reshots. And I really loved that. They could have easily used the original footage, but they didn't. And I love that they didn't.

[00:53:58] And I really think it was just, again, full circle, such a great description for it. I still didn't think, just like you, Jason, didn't think we were there until Mari took off her track jacket and had a white nightgown on underneath. And then I was like, okay, we're here.

[00:54:24] I was curious if the, you know how they all had their garb so you couldn't see their faces. And that was mostly just so we wouldn't know who they were, I think. But did they look pretty close to that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the clothing is all the same. The headgear is all the same. But I think they purposefully didn't try to make it exactly the same.

[00:54:48] You know, like I was watching, you know, like the footprint, the bloody footprints into the pit. And when Van, who we always thought that was Van since season one. Always. Yeah. Always. When Van comes up to the pit. To the edge. But it's different, but it's very similar. And I just thought that that's just such a nice added production piece that they did. And I really loved it. Yeah, it's cool.

[00:55:17] Yeah, I liked seeing things from a different point of view. The same sequence. It's kind of like Back to the Future Part 2. Yeah. When he goes back to the first movie. Yeah. I mean, it's somebody, it's like someone else's film, the same thing. But we're seeing it in a different, so we're seeing it in a different way. Right. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:39] And in those last shots where she's running down that final kind of, you know, pathway and falls into the pit, that looked almost exactly the same. But you could tell it was different. Yeah. Yeah. What about the sounds? The sounds were different, but similar. Yeah. But really good. Just love the production value of the show.

[00:56:04] Every little millisecond of film is really babied. Mm-hmm. And made great. It's all beautifully shot. Yeah. Yeah. It's so similar, but different. I mean, the way they, well, I mean, how many times have we watched episode one? I know I've watched it at least eight or nine times. So we've seen it so many times. Yeah.

[00:56:33] There were subtle things that were different. Like the lighting was just a little bit different. And you could actually see Mari's face, which of course you didn't because in the first episode, because they didn't want us to have any idea what we were going to see. Right. Or who it could be. I'm curious about something that maybe you guys don't, that you guys understand that I don't quite understand.

[00:57:01] So later, Misty, you know, Shauna confronts Misty, adult Shauna confronts Misty. And Misty says, you should have known that your daughter was the killer because Lottie gave her the necklace. And I don't really understand what the necklace, because if I'm going to say anything about the necklace, my guess would be whoever gets it is going to be hunted. But I don't think that's what she's saying, right?

[00:57:29] Lottie gave the necklace to Kelly to hunt her. That's not what she's saying. No. And I don't, I don't believe that Lottie could predict who was going to kill her. I think honestly, she may have given her the necklace because she was the queen. Uh-huh. Because remember, Shauna was wearing the necklace. Natalie wore the necklace. Then Shauna had the necklace back. Then they put it on coach.

[00:57:58] And then Shauna had it again. How did Mari get it? They put it on Mari. They put it on Mari. Before she ran. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, maybe it is. Did Shauna have it after that? I didn't know this. After the hunt. After the hunt. They didn't show. Okay. But I, she had it after coach because she was the leader. I think the leader was wearing it. And then they gave it to the hunted. And then it went back to the leader.

[00:58:30] Yeah. That's the only way that it makes any sense. I mean. Yep. I agree with that. Anything else you want to say about? I think that was it. Daphne? Um, just a little point about Jeff in this episode and his decision to take Callie out of that house and out of that situation.

[00:58:55] And reassuring her that it's an accident despite the fact, I guess it is kind of. He says to her, it's okay, you're telling me now. It took your mom 25 years to tell me 10% of the truth. Now it doesn't seem like that, like it was that much. I'm sorry that I didn't protect you from her. I should have done that. I kind of believe that yes, he should have protected her from that because he read the journal.

[00:59:22] So I am not 100% sure what was in those journals, but I can't imagine it left everything out. I have a question. When he said, I should have protected you from her. Was he talking about Lottie? Or Shauna? Shauna. Okay. I think. I thought he was talking about Lottie. Yeah, I wasn't sure. Because she was there upset about. Lottie. Lottie, but I don't know for sure, yeah.

[00:59:53] But he was also, he was talking about, it took your mom 25 years to tell me 10% of the truth. Now it doesn't seem like it was that much. So I think he could be referring to Shauna and I could be wrong, but I think at this point he's thinking there are things that he needed to or should have done as a father to protect his daughter. I wasn't sure. What makes sense about that is they've decided to move out. Yeah.

[01:00:22] So now maybe he's like, I'm going to make up for it now. Yeah. I'm going to take you out of the situation. And Shauna is so sure that none of them know how to call the phone company. I love that. I'm like, are you? The show, I love that the show never loses its sense of humor. Yeah. They'll throw something in like that. I'm like, well, most of the sell stuff that you do can be done by going to the store or online. They don't know that. And I'm cool.

[01:00:51] She always does it. Oh, sure. I guess. I don't know. I can feel that. I feel that. I mean, and I also thought of it being that way, too, because he's kind of trying to reassure her that she isn't like her mother. Because Callie now, after hearing Lottie go on her speech. Yeah. I'm starting to think more you're right now that you're talking about it.

[01:01:18] Just that she's worried that she's like her mother. And so I feel like Callie's in a very vulnerable place where she might be at a crossroads where do I, like, who am I? Am I like my mother? Am I savage? Or am I a good person? Like my dad. Like, where do I fit in this? What, where do I go?

[01:01:44] And I think that's something that will probably be revealed next season, hopefully. That journey for her is going to be. Yeah. It feels like the beginning of something. Yeah. I think it's definitely going to be a journey for her.

[01:02:02] I appreciated so much that he took her out of the situation and didn't tell Shauna where they were and just is doing what he needs to do for Callie because that may be the best thing that they've ever done for her is getting her out of that situation. Well, that kind of goes into my next one. Adult Shauna coming to terms with things. Oh, yes.

[01:02:30] So she finds this empty hotel room. She visits Misty. What'd you do to my family? They're gone. You know, they don't know how to even contact the phone company. And then Jeff texts her, we're safe, but need space. Please don't keep calling. And so now we know, yeah, that rift that we've sensed between them is real and he's doing something about it now.

[01:02:57] Um, then she finds Melissa's note that Melissa actually did send with that tape. Um, I wrote it down too. I know you guys did. I'll read mine and then you tell me if I miss anything. I'll tell you if I can fill in any blanks. Okay. It says, uh, dear Shauna, it's been a while. I know. And I guess I should begin by saying, I'm sorry about leading you all to believe I was dead. This is Melissa.

[01:03:26] The letter that she sent to the tape with the tape to Shauna. I've done a lot of work since then more and more days. I'm able to wake up and just look at my beautiful family and not even think about what happened out there. Still. I've been struggling to let go completely, which is why I'm sending you this tape. It was pretty darn clear evidence of murder. And I was keeping it as something, I guess, just in case you guys, something came after me, whatever.

[01:03:51] I've come to see that even the something to need insurance is keeping me back in that place. Something, something coming to terms and then something to forgive yourself. That's what I got. Yeah. I have most of that. What I got, one part I have is it's pretty darn close to evidence of murder. And I was keeping it as insurance, I guess, just in case you guys ever. And I was thinking came after me.

[01:04:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what she said. Yeah. Everything she said to her before was true, at least about this letter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Shauna tears it up and she's flashing on some violent things that we've seen her do and starts crying. And I think the reason why she did that is because she doesn't want to think of what she did as something to be forgiven. Well, it's probably not simple. These things are never simple. Right.

[01:04:49] But there's a lot of emotion and charge around all of this. But I think, I mean, what she writes in her journal next is a clue for me. She says, I tried for years to remember what happened out there, to understand why it seemed like I couldn't remember so much of it, why none of us could. I'm finally starting to realize we can't remember it because at some point we became so alive in that place that we lost our capacity for self-reflection. The trauma people say survivors forget things to protect themselves because they were so terrible.

[01:05:17] But I think we can't or won't remember it clearly because we recognized deep down that we were having so much fun. That's the terrible truth we left out there buried along with the people we called our friends. Except it's all coming back to me now. The danger, the thrill, the person I was back then. Not a wife or a mother. I was a warrior. I was a fucking queen. I let all of it slip away from me. It's time to start taking it back.

[01:05:41] So to me, she was sort of rejecting Melissa's saying you need to forgive yourself and more like I need to reclaim that spirit, that it, that animal instinct that I found out there and then spent all the remaining time trying to tamp down and bury and be in this boring life that I hate. Maybe Shauna wasn't traumatized because of what she did.

[01:06:06] Maybe she was traumatized by having to live an ordinary life when she didn't feel ordinary and she knew that that was what had made her feel alive and she couldn't go back. Just a thought. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, someone who has that is already, in my opinion, damaged, you know?

[01:06:31] I mean, she was already like cheating with her friend's boyfriend and feeling super resentful and stuff. But all of that came before they went out and then whatever it was in her, like we've said, she already had that anger and that rage and then it came out when she was out there. Yeah. I don't know if she did. I don't.

[01:06:51] That was the question I was going to ask you guys is, would Shauna have become the antler queen if Jackie hadn't have died and she hadn't have been pregnant? I don't know. I mean, I think, well, like we've said, this story, I think is Shauna's the main character and Jackie is her foil.

[01:07:17] And, you know, all of her reading this journal is superimposed with young Shauna being dressed like attendants, like the antler queen. And they eat and she goes, eat and never forget this. But they do forget. And that's kind of the point. Shauna wants to remember.

[01:07:35] And, and it just makes so much sense for me that Shauna became the antler queen because, and this is why I think it was the plan for the beginning, because this show is about the dynamics of teenage girls and how they can be hierarchical and savage in their own way. And out in the, out in the wilderness, that just got expressed on a more literal level. They were free to externalize it. So at home, I kind of already said this, but Jackie was the queen at home and Shauna always felt overshadowed. We knew that that was the whole plot of the first episode.

[01:08:03] But out in the wilderness, she finally got to be the one to dominate and be the fierce leader. And eating Jackie was like bringing that mantle of leadership into herself. And I think that's been the core story of this show. And, and if it were a regular teen drama, she would dream of being the popular girl like Jackie, but it's yellow jacket. So she's the antler queen. I think that honestly, yeah, that's a great summation.

[01:08:32] It also makes me think though about something that Misty and Taisa talk about when they're together later, where Taisa says the worst of what we went through. She fueled it. She thrived on it. I forgot that for the longest time, but I can't anymore. If we keep letting this slide, she's going to end up being the last one standing.

[01:08:55] And while Shauna's going through her own thing of realizing that she doesn't want to hide that anymore. She wants to remember. Taisa and Misty are talking about not forgetting and remembering exactly what happened out there and how dangerous it is now in the present day. Yes. It sets them up as major foes. It does. By the end. It does. Yeah. It's exciting.

[01:09:24] I don't want to be a Shauna apologist, but I kind of think, I don't believe Shauna was predetermined to be that. I think that she had to have had something inside of her to become that probably for a long time. But I do think the circumstances helped her get there.

[01:09:50] And I do think it's possible that if things hadn't happened the way they happened, it's possible she wouldn't have. She might not have. I mean, look at the circumstances, though. She sent Jackie out into the cold and that's what killed her. Well, wait a minute. First, Jackie tried to send her out. Yeah, but look what happened, though. I know, but I don't believe that was Shauna's fault. I mean, there was a room full of people that watched Jackie go outside and then went to bed.

[01:10:20] Yeah, I know. But I'm just saying it was the story has been set up from the beginning as about the relationship between these two characters and Shauna feeling resentful towards Jackie and then finally doing something about it. And it led to Jackie's death and Shauna becoming the dominant one. I just think that's the story. Whether it had to go that way, I don't know. But that's what they're telling. That's what the story they're telling. But I don't like the idea that Shauna was always that because I don't necessarily think she was.

[01:10:49] I think I just think of how in the beginning, Shauna was trying to help Jackie, you know, had this big, you know, she carried a baby for nine months out in the wilderness and then lost that baby in this traumatic way, almost died. I just think her experiences shaped her into the antler queen. Yeah, I think it's all wrapped up together.

[01:11:17] But I think from the beginning, you know, when they're at home before they ever get on the plane, she's resentful of Jackie. We don't even see how that started. It's just there from the beginning. And she's rolling her eyes at things that Jackie say. Jackie's presuming that Shauna's going to go to the same college without even asking her and telling her how they're going to decorate their room.

[01:11:37] And meanwhile, Shauna's sleeping with Jackie's boyfriend behind her back to try to get at her somehow or whatever, you know, psychodynamics are going on. I feel like it was all there already. I feel like she wanted to be Jackie. Like, I think she wanted to be Jackie. And so since she couldn't, she was going to be with her boyfriend.

[01:12:00] And I mean, if I remember right, Coach Martinez said that Shauna was a better soccer player than Jackie was. Jackie was a good leader, but Shauna was a better player. Which totally fits into all this because out in the wilderness, your physicality is more important than your influence. Your aggressiveness. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with all of that.

[01:12:27] I just, I think there's thousands and thousands of teenage girls in similar circumstances that Shauna was in before the wilderness. And they don't go off and be serial killers. When we talked about the Lord of the Flies and, you know, we had Cassie on and that was a great conversation. And at one point we were like, do you think boys would really do this?

[01:12:55] And then I think you had a story of boys that actually were stranded and they were fine, right? They didn't. They did real well. Devolve into savagery. Yeah. And I think that's more realistic for boys or girls, but this is just a fanciful story. Good storytelling. Yeah. And it was good. Yeah. Yeah. We are left with three adult survivors, not including Melissa.

[01:13:24] I'm looking at the main three that we've known since day one that are diabolical in different ways. If you look at it, Taisa has light and dark tie. Shauna is aggressive and just intense in a way that goes beyond. I don't, I mean, it's just crazy. And then Misty.

[01:13:52] Misty is a class all of her own. If I were Melissa, I would just disappear because the three of them are, they're just diabolical. But I don't think they're going to be running after Melissa. I think other than Jeff, Misty might have been the most sane person this season. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:22] I know. Really? I'm almost disappointed. Come on, Misty. Right. Do something fucked up. She had to let other, other people had to step up and shine. And they've had that opportunity. But that's the Misty we know. We know the Misty that's, you know, unpredictable. We're not. I'm just glad she's not taking anything from Shauna this season. She's just like, doesn't take any shit. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:51] I wish she could have sent some of that back to Teen Misty. Yeah. And got her to... Yeah. Teen Misty's not there. Yeah. So she's going to have to grow into that. Again, I love watching the way that these timelines, like, we're going to get with the teen timeline eventually. Actually, we're seeing how they become who they are now. And I'm really interested in the part when they get home. Yeah. And I've appreciated what we've seen of them in the wilderness and what they went through.

[01:15:21] But to me, there's a part when they get home that's going to shed even more light on things. And we're getting closer to that. So I'm excited about it. I think it's your turn, Wendy. Is that right? I think it is. Okay. I want to talk about the group that planned and orchestrated the diversion, the hunt to

[01:15:47] allow Natalie to get away so that they could be rescued. Like, they risked so much in doing this. All of them. Um, so Hannah, we see Hannah, um, and Nat confront each other in the woods. Nat doesn't trust her fully, but obviously Hannah, she believes Hannah.

[01:16:11] And I think last week we weren't sure what Hannah's motivations were to kill Cody, but I think it was just pure survival. She just thought this was her best chances of getting home. Yep. And I believed her, but she really risked a lot. She impersonated Natalie for the whole night.

[01:16:40] And Shauna could have easily killed her immediately when she found out. And maybe she does, because we don't know. We know Hannah doesn't make it out of the wilderness, but we don't know why. Well, well, we kind of know they kill her because Shauna said that several times. Yeah. And I don't even know if it is in the wilderness. I presumed that, but do we know that for sure? Or could it been after they got back? It didn't seem like she ever got back, but maybe. I think you're right. Yeah.

[01:17:08] I think there was something that said it was out there. In which case, it's going to have to happen pretty soon, you think. Right. I don't know. Maybe this is the wrong time to ask this, so let me know. But do you think we're going to see much more out there, or are they just going to be rescued in the season premiere next season? I think we're going to see – I think we're going to – if I had to guess, I would think we're going to pick up right where we left off. But I could be wrong. How much time do they have left out there, though? Not – just probably enough time to clean up. And kill Hannah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:17:38] Which leads me to the question, what happens to everyone else? Right. Because there's still a bunch of people alive. Right. But we don't know when they died. They could have died later, too. Yeah. Which could be – if we're getting five seasons of the show, that could be what four and five is about. And I'm okay with that. I would look – Yeah, me too. Yeah, I would be fine with that. Sure. Like Gaffney said, I trust these guys. If they have two more seasons of story to tell, yes. Yep.

[01:18:07] And also, Hannah butchered a teenage girl to make this ruse work. Yeah. Because she was – because Natalie was the assigned butcher. Mm-hmm.

[01:18:22] Jen, you know, she tricked Van and Ty into pulling them away from Shauna by saying that Van had been hurt. So she tricked both of them. Again, she could have – they could have immediately killed her. She was really risking everything to do that. Melissa, you know, I think she – her motivation was she was going to try to kill Shauna.

[01:18:52] And ultimately, she couldn't do it. But she came really close. And she probably could have. But I think Melissa at that time wasn't able to. And Natalie risked a lot too. She could have been found out. That's what made it so exciting, all these risks. Yeah, Misty too. Like they all risked Shauna's wrath and getting found out about this.

[01:19:21] And here's the thing. They were basically instigating a hunt. Akilah killed her precious animals to get this going. And then they were initiating this hunt. They didn't know who was going to draw the card. They were willing to sacrifice one of their own, which they did end up doing, to make this work.

[01:19:44] I mean, it's really intense to think that a group would go to those lengths. But if they didn't do that, they were probably all going to one by one die. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. It's a lot of risk, but the stakes are high. Mari was a part of that decision. So she knew the risk. Yeah. I mean, she really did. It was sad, but she knew the risks. Yeah.

[01:20:13] What I'm wondering, at the beginning of the episode, we saw Natalie getting dragged out of her lodging. Yeah, I didn't get that scene. Yeah, I didn't either. They were searching it for something, but I don't know what. So, okay. I think Shauna knew what they were doing as far as leaving. With the sat phone. They were looking for the sat phone.

[01:20:38] I don't know if it necessarily was the sat phone, because Van is the only one who really knew about the sat phone. And Misty, those were the ones that knew. And Natalie knew, but it wasn't... I don't... I think Shauna knew that Natalie was trying to take them away. Mm-hmm. Like, they were going to leave.

[01:20:59] And even though Hannah lied and said that Cody had the knife, I think Shauna assumed Natalie was involved in it in some way. And based on the way she confronted Natalie, a.k.a. Hannah, at the end, I do wonder if Natalie was on the chopping block in the near future. Well, they threw her out of her place to look for something, and we don't know what they were looking for. I thought it might be.

[01:21:29] I mean, Shauna is really smart. Like, that's what they really pound home. Like, you can see, she knows something's up. She knows something's off. She doesn't know what. Yeah. A little bit of me says, you know, you had, like, what, 12 people out here for a long time. Did you... How did you not count? But I think she knew something was up. So maybe... I don't know. Maybe they were looking for something. Weapons? I don't know.

[01:21:59] Yeah, it could be weapons. Because, again, I think that she knew Natalie gave the knife to Hannah. I think she figured it out. Because they wanted to leave. Right. Everyone wanted to leave except her and Lottie. Ty only mentioned staying to clean things up. Right. And honestly, I think Van would have gone home if... Oh, yeah. I think she would have gone.

[01:22:27] She was going to walk out there with Travis the first time. Yeah. She wanted to go. Travis tried to get them out of there. Mm-hmm. He could see the mess that's happening. Daphne? Okay. So, I want to just give an overview of... Just a quick overview of questions and answers. Because I feel like we got a lot. We've talked about it a little bit.

[01:22:57] We know who the Antler Queen is. We know who Pit Girl is. We know the hair that's on the Antler Queens. You know... It's all Mari's, right? Cost him. It's all Mari's. And we now know... We think the person who killed Lottie. I mean, those are a lot of answers. And I think that's pretty great.

[01:23:22] Oh, we also know why they're so thankful to Nat. Because... At least I presume, right? Yeah. She climbed up on top of this high place and called for help. Yeah. They owe a lot to her. But it's interesting that I think Ty was the one who said that. Not Shauna. Yeah. Right. Because Ty wanted to go home. Right. I think Ty... Yeah. In the minute that... It was against Shauna's wishes.

[01:23:51] We didn't know that at the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think Ty wanted to go home. I think she said what she said because they... If anyone came in to get them or was looking for them, they would find the remnants of what they had been doing. And it would be smart to clean things up. It made sense. I don't think she wanted to stay there long term. I think Lottie and Shauna wanted to stay there long term. I think they wanted...

[01:24:21] They didn't want to go home. That's what they said, yeah. They didn't want to go back and be the people they were. No. They wanted to stay there because they were free. Freer. My turn? Yes. Your turn. Okay. Ty has had it with Shauna. So Shauna and... No. Not Shauna. Who was it? Misty and Ty. Misty. No, no. Who drove... It was...

[01:24:48] Was it Misty and Ty that drove Van's body into the woods? No, it was Shauna. Right? Yeah, it was Shauna. Yeah. So Shauna and Ty drive Van's body into the woods. Ty doesn't want to talk. Of course, she's upset because her lover just was killed. Then she eats, takes a bite of her heart. I already talked about that. You know, it was... In some cultures, it's an act of intimacy, grief, or unity,

[01:25:17] a way to keep the person with you. It was really gruesome. But also, I think for me anyway, I'm at a point with this series where we've gotten used to them doing... I like that they're still not completely integrated into society, that they were forever changed by this experience, and they didn't completely let all that go. And so when I saw Ty do that, if I'd seen that at the beginning of a series,

[01:25:47] I would just think, Oh my God, you're a monster. But now I was like, Oh, that's kind of sweet, even though it's gross. You know? I'm glad we didn't have to see her actually cut into Van. But then Ty says, I'm not going to forget you, Van. Starting now, I'm going to remember all of it, and all of you, and all of me. And then, as we talked about later, Shauna writes in her journal about how they've all forgotten a lot of what happened out there.

[01:26:16] And so I think, you know, and she's saying, I want to remember now too, Shauna. She wants to reclaim all of that. And at the same time that Ty is, and it's sort of convenient for the show because all this time we didn't really know what happened out there. And we didn't know how at odds Ty and Shauna were or some, you know, everybody was Shauna. So we could believe seeing them being friendly as adults. But now that we know it's sort of convenient that the adult versions of them are like, yeah,

[01:26:45] we forgot that. But now we remember too. So we're also against each other now too. You know what I mean? It sort of lines up perfectly with the story that they're trying to tell, but just sort of going along with it. It's like they, they just kind of forgot. It was all a haze. And now they're making a point to remember. And, and then what we see Ty in a restaurant talking to someone and we don't know who. And, um,

[01:27:12] I thought maybe she was talking to herself like dark tie, light tie, but she says, we all agreed when we came back, we'd keep the past in the past. But what does she do? She keeps her journals where her husband can find them. She murders a lover. She mutilates her ex. It's Shauna's fault that van is dead. Really? It's her fault that Natalie's dead too, which I'm not sure why she said that. Um, because they didn't let the,

[01:27:39] let them kill her because she drew the queen and she was in the hunt. I, I mean, I don't know. Wow. Yeah, that's okay. And Ty says, and don't even get me started about on that shit. She pulled out there. The worst of what we went through. She fueled it. She thrived on it. I forgot that for the longest time. So she's remembering now. And, um, then if we keep letting this lie, she's going to be the last one standing. And I don't want that to you. And then it's revealed to be misty. No, I definitively do not.

[01:28:09] So it was just a great moment of setting up this, uh, adversarial relationship that we think is probably going to play out next season between Shauna versus misty and tie. Do you think they're right? Or that ties, right. And messy. I think that they're all kind of fucked up, honestly. Yeah, I,

[01:28:37] I feel like they were just looking for somebody to blame. And I'm not saying that Shauna doesn't have some things to blame on her, but you know, they, they did some really fucked up things too. Both of them. Especially misty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. I mean, I think they're all, I mean, they're just want to make Shauna the, the scapegoat for everything. Yeah. I think this season,

[01:29:08] I mean, you know, Shauna, well, I was going to say, Shauna tried to keep them all out there, but so did tie. She went along with it. So, yeah, yeah, it's no one's blameless. There's blood on everyone's hands, especially all the adults that are left. Yeah. I think, I think you're right, Wendy, because this season, you really feel like Shauna's the villain of the season. And I think the writers are really leaning into that. But when you really think about it,

[01:29:37] it's not black and white. No, they've all done bad things. They've all done bad things in the present timeline and in the past timeline. All right. Whose turn is it? Wendy, do you have any more? I just have constant questions. Well, ask away. What, what's your question? Maybe we can answer it or. This isn't really a point, but. So at the very end, when it's revealed that Hannah.

[01:30:08] Isn't Natalie, you know, that she's been pretending to be Natalie all night long. They kind of pan around the room. And. It seems like everybody was in on this, right? Like Van and Ty seem to know. We know all of Natalie's crew. No. Who didn't know? Maybe Travis. Lottie. I agree. Lottie didn't know. I would not tell Lottie my plan. No. And maybe Travis didn't know.

[01:30:37] Cause he just seems so out of it, but he did look up, but I don't know if it was surprise or not. And so my thoughts were, if they were all in on it and they all wanted to go home, why didn't they all gang up on Shauna? Like she had to sleep sometime, you know, like, yeah. Why did it come to this? I believe it though. It, it,

[01:31:02] when you have a malevolent or just a toxic leader like that, you, I always questioned that about leaders. Why do they have a hold and they rule through fear and they've got, I mean, usually they do have loyal supporters though, to help them shore up their leadership. Right. For a while she had Jen and Melissa on her side and, and Ty. And you know, for a while she had the numbers at first,

[01:31:32] I thought Hannah might be actually loyal to her, but it, that quickly went away. And so she didn't have anybody on her side. Really? Lottie really wasn't on her side. She's just kind of off doing whatever. Yeah. And honestly, you're right. And if they were willing to risk or to sacrifice, one of their own to enact this plan, then why not just kill Shauna? Right. Or at least try. Yeah. They didn't, we didn't see any attempts.

[01:32:02] Right. To take Shauna out. We saw one. Uh, we saw two, I would say. Mari, Mari, Mari. Yeah. Did try. And Melissa kind of. And Melissa. She failed. But that's it. I haven't seen anything in prior episodes that made me think, wait a minute, you know, someone's going to do something. And it makes me want to go back and rewatch season two,

[01:32:25] because I want to watch how the group sees Shauna and how she sees the group in the teen storyline. To see how we get to this point where they're so afraid, because at some point they just decided they don't want to cross her. Right. What other questions? Um, what happens next? Yeah. Oh boy.

[01:32:53] They get rescued and somehow Hannah gets killed before they get rescued. And then they go back and do some messed up things. So we think everybody, but Hannah is going to make it out of the wilderness. I don't. Um, did you see, I know you did, um, Cody in this episode? Yes. What's in that level? Yeah. That is, um, next level.

[01:33:22] And they're all walking around like that. Like they've been at camp for a while, right? Like a little while. And just, just walking past that every day. Sure. That's, that's normal. Yeah. I don't understand why it's there. It just makes me honestly think about Negan and. Yeah. And how we hung trophies outside. Yeah. Like, yeah. I,

[01:33:48] once you get out of what we think is acceptable society, there's been all like there's public hangings throughout history and beheadings and people, let's go check out the beheading, take the whole family down, you know? Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I think it's just wild for us to think of it being that way. And then I think the other question I have is that. Do you,

[01:34:15] it seems as if Natalie in this episode is keeping Misty secret about the transponder. Do you think she ever told anybody? I don't think so. I don't think she did. I think that's why, or at least one of the reasons why Misty has loved Natalie so much. Yeah. That she kept her secret. And she saved them. And that too. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, Miss Misty's life wasn't exactly hunky dory back at home,

[01:34:44] but she wants to go home. I mean, yes, her parents seem to be nice to her, but she was bullied to death. I mean, yeah, at school, she was treated terribly. I mean, they treat her terribly sometimes. I like when Nat's like, you're telling me this is all your fault. Fuck you, Misty and smacks her in the face. And then Missy's reaction is, just to sit there like, yeah, I'm not going to argue with that.

[01:35:14] Like she's right. And then she's just like, you're not going to tell anyone. Are you? And I think just, that's another thing. The fact that she said that makes me think she didn't tell anyone. Cause they chose to focus on it, you know? Yeah. And then, and then later on in the episode, when they're tossing Natalie's TP, Misty goes, are you okay? And she's like, don't fucking talk to me, but she's, and Misty's pretty cowed, because she does not want that secret to get out. Obviously,

[01:35:45] you know, so she's pretty cowed about it, but she, um, you know, you can, I, it seemed like so far that secret had been kept. Yeah. And we've never heard anybody talk about it. Yeah. And I think it helps that Misty's trying to use it now to get them out of there. And so that she was able to, Nat was able to focus on that. Yeah. Whatever it takes because they, Shauna was watching Natalie.

[01:36:12] She was never going to let Natalie out of her sight. Right. I don't know that she was going to let anyone out of her sight. Honestly. And I liked when she figured out that Hannah was, uh, posing as Natalie. So great. What the hell? Where the fuck is Natalie? That felt like something out of a Stephen King. And breaking into the song and Natalie tracking up the mountain. That was amazing. Yeah. Aerosmith, right?

[01:36:41] Mm hmm. Yeah. Is it living on the edge? Mm hmm. Yes. Uh, I also. Can I say one cool thing? Sure. That right now us three are the only ones that know that we got to the pit girl scene and nobody else is going to find out until Friday. I'm so excited for like the fans that have really, especially the ones that have enjoyed this season. Yeah. Um, I'm a little scared though with,

[01:37:10] with like Lainey's reaction. Like she is mad. What is she mostly not liking? She feels like it's not true to the characters they've developed. And she hates Walter. And she's like, Walter's just a plot device. He had no purpose at all. Yeah. I don't like him either. And well, I feel like this season he was just a plot device, but, um,

[01:37:38] but I've also heard like somebody wrote in, in the feedback and they're like, this is it. I'm not watching it anymore. I'm not watching 10. Oh, wow. Was it, was it, uh, I don't remember who it was. I'm sorry. It might be Anna from Ukraine. I'm not sure. Oh no, I don't want her to stop watching. I love getting, I just noticed it cause I didn't read it all. I don't read it all, but some of them I was trying to cut down. Yeah. Yeah. And well, so then, yeah.

[01:38:08] So that was nine. Yeah. So yeah, the people I, it's, it's getting some, uh, it's getting some flack. I bet you people, once they hear what it is, they'll still go back and watch it. They have to make an announcement either way, like make an announcement. It's going to taint it if you don't. Mm hmm. Yeah. I definitely, even if they come out and say like, we don't know, I would like to know something. Yeah.

[01:38:36] I would like to know because they would have to be starting to get like in the writer's room and then production. And I hope this season or see, I hope the series is going to continue because there's still stuff I want to see. Mm hmm. So again, I know we've gone back and forth on crystal, like, or at least people have gone back and forth on is crystal real and whatever.

[01:39:03] But we had another instance in this episode where, um, Ty and van were talking about the cards and how van had manipulated the cards with crystal to get out of the poop bucket duty. So it's like, they always suspected they had been treating crystal like that. Yes, exactly. So that was another little answer. Yeah. She's real. I think they've, yeah, they might've referred to her before too.

[01:39:33] Or no, maybe I'm thinking of Melissa because people thought she wasn't real too for a while, but then they started talking about her. Well, I mean, it's really, you're out in a place where there's gas floating in the air and who knows what's real. I mean, Travis may just keep going back to that cave and, getting high off the gas. It's like, I've got to live here with all of them and they've lost their minds. So I might as well just be completely out of it all the time too. Yeah. I would have liked to see more from him this season.

[01:40:04] Yeah. It's hard to juggle all those plates. He got, he got some stuff, but yeah. Yeah. Acting high. All right. Let's go into notes. Daphne, what do you got? All right. So I have to bring up this one quote and this was when Shauna was talking to Misty. about, um, Callie killing Lottie. She was desperate for someone to talk to you, to talk to, and you were busy eating your ex-girlfriend's arm. Um,

[01:40:33] I thought it was great. That's great. It was so great. Um, some of the dialogue in this was, yeah, just amazing. And that was probably my favorite quote of the episode. So yeah, Wendy. I actually think when I'm reading them over, I don't think I have anything left. Okay. One thing for me, we didn't talk about it,

[01:41:01] but Lottie was dreaming of like a mystical antler queen figure, which maybe that's a representation of it. We don't know. Right. Which was cool and freaky at the same time. Yeah. And that song fingers, that song that was playing does not exist. I would not find it anywhere. You made it up. But at the end of the episode, there was a, uh, little thing that says vocalization by, uh, Caroline shot.

[01:41:30] And I went and listened to some of her stuff and I think it sounds very similar to what we were hearing at the beginning. So I'm thinking maybe that is it because I really thought it was cool. But anyway, sorry to interrupt. No, it's okay. So, so I had this, like, I think it's either the antler queen figure saying this, it's either Lottie, uh, like telepathically saying, or maybe the antler queen saying, I'm ready. My will is your will.

[01:41:59] I feel like it'd be Lottie would be the one. I think it was Lottie. Yeah. Yeah. It was her voice. Then they both raised their hands and she's screaming. And it was, it was really cool scene. I didn't quite know what to make of it, but you flash, there's quick flashes. One is adult Lottie's dead body on the corners table. One is young Lottie's face. I think in the cabin with mounted on the wall with the antlers. Yeah. She's standing in front of it. We saw that,

[01:42:28] I think in season one where she's standing right in front. Yeah. um, Lottie's face. This is the most intriguing one. Superimposed over the burning cabin and the symbol also superimposed over that. And it made me wonder if she, that meant she burned the cabin. I never thought about that. Horrible. Because she's always like, let's sacrifice this all to the, that is one of the questions we don't have answered. Yeah.

[01:42:58] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I figure if they don't answer it, it means coach did it. You know, I don't, I don't think, I don't think I did either. Cause when he told Natalie, okay, I did it. It seemed like he was just saying that. So she would kill him. Yeah. Cause, but, um, maybe it was Lottie. And I mean, when I was writing these notes, I had it in my head that Lottie was the one who told Akilah to kill her animal.

[01:43:25] So they would have this hunt because she was craving more sacrifices or it was telling her to do that or something. And also who pooped in the bucket. We didn't find that out. Shauna, probably. So other notes. Um, we also don't really know what the symbols are for and how they got there. True. Not yet. An answered question.

[01:43:52] I feel like that might've been in the bonus episode that we never got that we might see at some point. Um, I also think there's a fair chance that they're just like benign. They're like something really mundane and we've attached all this meaning to them and it's nothing special, you know, but they gotta be there for some reason. So they made them special. Yeah. Mm hmm. Um, that's all I got.

[01:44:20] I only have one other thing. I'm mentioning this cause we've talked about music already a little bit. Um, the mystery of love by Marian faithful played during the part where Shauna takes Taisa to what we think is Barry Vance body. And it ends up, she cuts her heart out and eats it too. Yeah. It's your heart out. I was not expecting that. No, me either.

[01:44:50] It was sweet. That was a surprise. Sweet. Nice.

[01:45:24] Okay. We're back. It's time for some news. Vanity fair. Talked with Lauren Ambrose. Who's of course, adult van and Tani Cypress. Who's Taisa about, uh, you know, her recent exit, Lauren Ambrose's exit. Lauren Ambrose said they told her before the season started that she was going to die and she was surprised. And when she was first cast in season two, she expected to stick around longer. She says,

[01:45:50] certainly that was how it seemed from being lured onto the show and getting the job. So here's two in a row of Simone Kessel and Lauren Ambrose who don't seem happy with the way they went out, or at least not entirely happy. Uh, she said she's still processing Ben's death and that she and Tani Cypress were surprised by this narrative choice. She says, Van is this ultimate survivor. Her mother had an abusive nature and she gets almost blown up by the plane. Then she's almost killed when she's attacked by wolves.

[01:46:19] And then she's got this cancer that then goes into remission. I assumed it would be the cancer that did her in this ultimate survivor. Who's unable to survive this very real and human thing. Then it wasn't that. And reading it was really shocking. All of a sudden, Hillary swank is murdering me. I'm like, okay, we're going to make it work. As Catherine Hahn said to me once champions adjust. Yeah. That sounds like she wasn't real happy with the way it happened. Well, yeah. So,

[01:46:49] I mean, she made the best of it though. When she first learned about the writer's plan, she had a request. She says, please make it earned and worthy of this character that live invented. And Tani Cypress says, when I read it, it did not feel earned quite honestly. And I didn't really understand it. Now I see that we're saying goodbye to one character, but introducing another character. It's the most gruesome way to start Melissa's story. So I get why they did it. But as a fan, I'd have liked it to gone differently for sure. And as a fan of Lauren, I would have liked for her to stick around. There's literally no goodbye.

[01:47:18] It sucks so bad. And they talked about how ties story changed in season two. When Lauren Ambrose came on board, Lauren Ambrose says we were thrust into our own world, which was kind of surprising to Tani. She was the state Senator and elected official and all that stuff just disappeared. And we were this tangential little love story going on. And Cypress says, you just have to have faith and trust that the writers know what the fuck they're doing. I love the story that we got to tell. So it sounds like, I mean,

[01:47:48] it's interesting to me. Usually I think actors don't speak so openly about their frustrations. And so it, it makes me worried about, you know, how things are behind the scenes. Cause they're both, but I think Tani Cypress jumped in here to say, you know, well, I do love the story that we got to tell and you just have to trust the writers. So she's trying to mitigate it a little bit. Well, again, we've talked about this. I think we talked about it when we're on the Handmaid's Tale.

[01:48:13] We may not like the answers or we may not like what the results are, but they're what we're given. And I get that they don't like that. They don't get to work together anymore. That must really suck because they've had such a great time playing those characters. Yeah. It says at one point Cypress tears up discussing the bond she's developed with Ambrose. We did good stuff. It was my Lauren's goal to show the love that live and Jasmine created to

[01:48:43] finish their story in the most noble way that we could. We got very close. And then Ambrose talked about her death scene with Hillary Swank. She says, we cleared everybody out of the room. And I was like, we're going to make something real happen here. Definitely on the day, something cool happened. I got what I really wanted out of this job. When I watched season one and these women's performances, I was like, this is very, very cool. My treasure is having had the opportunity to work with all these amazing women.

[01:49:10] And then Tani Cypress says she hopes to get more screen time with Hillary Swank. She says, she's a fucking legend. And I think she scares a lot of people. I've only gotten to talk to her once or twice. So I look forward to getting to know her more. Yeah. I mean, we know the premise of this show. People are not going to live forever on here. There are going to be people that, that die. It's just part of the way that the story is.

[01:49:38] And it's really hard to lose the characters, but you don't often, I think as a fan, think about what it's like for the actors who go through all this time, telling these stories and connecting with each other. And then it's over. Yeah. And yeah, you know what? I mean, both the show, cause you know, variety also talked with Simone Kessel and she says, I was pretty broken hearted. This is who plays adult Lottie by the way,

[01:50:06] because it felt like it had come to an end. Just when I felt Lottie was coming into her own, I was excited that season three would take her somewhere interesting. And unfortunately they just decided that storyline was no longer, I guess Lottie's death then serves as an investigation for Misty to be citizen detective and discover how Lottie passes what happened. And everyone's a suspect. And, um, she says, I don't know what happened in that writer's room or whether they decided they wanted to bring in a fresh character or just have three main girls. I don't know.

[01:50:35] I think that's a question for Jonathan, Ashley and Bart as an actor. You always think, was it something I did? Was it my performance? Could I have done it differently? I just felt it was premature because I wanted to see, and I, and I know that the fans and the supporters of the show did too, where Lottie was going. So to have that just cut off, didn't feel good. And I mean, Simone Kessel, I thought was great. You know, I don't think there was anything wrong with her performance. Yeah. I don't see how anybody else could have been Lottie. She was so good. Yeah. Um,

[01:51:03] but that does make you all go, Hmm. I mean, well, part of it, I think like you're saying, Daphne, like you, you don't know on a show like this and you just have to go where the writers are going to take you. But with both of these characters, Van and Lottie, it just was so abrupt and it didn't feel like what we're used to as a narrative arc for somebody. It's like, Oh, they just wiped this person off the table. I mean, game of Thrones, I guess did that every once in a while too. Yeah.

[01:51:30] I think we have to look at it outside of that and realize the catalyst that this is going to create for Callie's character, knowing that she is responsible for Lottie's death and where it's going to take us in that story. Um, yeah. And it was part of a big mystery this season. I think that was why they did it. I'm still really bummed that we lost both Lottie and Van this season because

[01:51:58] I feel like they had more to tell. And unfortunately that's not what we get. And I'm not, I don't want people to think that I'm just defending the writers or whatever. I think just having watched so many shows that are so intricate and I guess maybe I've gotten a little numb to losing characters a lot because I mean, game of Thrones, walking dead,

[01:52:27] like some of those shows, I just feel like you just get used to losing the characters that you really love. And it's hard. I just, it feels it's weird. I thought, I thought their deaths were both. Weirdly abrupt and, and that's okay. But I want, once the whole story is told to feel like that's satisfying, whether that means, cause you know,

[01:52:54] the whole ending with Van on the airplane that like limbo, whatever that was, she was talking about how this isn't really the end or something. So it makes me wonder if they're going to get these characters back on for something at the end or something. Well, they've certainly given us a, given us a lot of, of Jackie this season. Like she's been back a few times. So it wouldn't surprise me that they bring some of them back.

[01:53:23] And we've seen Lottie since she's died too. Yes. In this episode. Um, the show runners talked with den of geek about Alexa Barajas, who plays Mari. Uh, Jonathan Lisko said, Alexa is a treasure. Basically, she started out as a relatively secondary character on the show. And I think we decided that we could give her more and we gave her more. And she just kept knocking it out of the park. So we decided to take her on a real ride this season. And Ashley Lyle says,

[01:53:53] we knew we couldn't have 12 main characters in the season, but we got very lucky that the secondary characters showed their talent and their abilities as actors. Mari's rises of characters, evidence of the show success and increased comfortability and exploring the abilities and complexities of different characters and actors. So good job. Cause she was super fun to watch. Yeah. I think it's been just so much fun to watch, especially like,

[01:54:20] like she says the secondary characters that we barely got to connect with in season one, like over the last two seasons have really started to be more in your face. And I think that's been good. Mari never lost her sass. Yeah. She did not lose her sass. The last thing she said was when Lottie said, we've been here before and you can do something different. And she's like, fuck you Lottie. Or whatever. Yeah.

[01:54:52] Wasn't she the, I think she was the person that was kind of like looking down at Akilah as being the player that was just up from JB, I think on the plane. Yeah. I think it was Mari. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Um, Hillary Swank talked with variety and, uh, I kind of wonder if maybe they did let go of some of these actors because

[01:55:20] Hillary Swank costs a lot of money. I don't know, but, um, that's one possibility, but she is damn good. And I am definitely looking forward to seeing her more on this show. Um, she said, Melissa really, really feels like she's moved on from the past. Hillary Swank said this about Melissa's character and is proud of the work she's done on herself. But being around Shauna isn't good for her. She said, it's not until something happens that does trigger her starting with the arm bite.

[01:55:49] And maybe some of the things that Shauna has said to her that start creeping back into her head and start the spiral. It kind of hits this crescent crescendo of, Oh my gosh, I'm remembering. You feel like you're going to die again. And it brings out the side of you that you thought you had buried. So at least from her point of view, she thought she'd moved on. Uh, as for whether Shauna is right to think that Melissa is trying to kill her. Swank says, I didn't play it like that. I really feel like she was trying to find peace in her life and that she was really trying to move on.

[01:56:19] See, and I didn't buy that. Like the letter that she wrote, Shauna, I thought that was all a lie, but I could be wrong, but that's, I think Melissa is a bad guy. Well, she's freaking killed man, but like Swank's Hillary Swank saying, right. I played her as if she'd moved on. That doesn't mean anything. Like we just learned in, on the white Lotus that, uh,

[01:56:44] Greg did not know the nature of his character in season one because Mike White didn't tell him. So he was just playing it straight. You know, I don't want to give too much away, but sometimes they don't tell the actors everything. Right. And then last, uh, co-showrunner, Ashley Lyle talked with deadline about the finale. This article came out before it aired. So it's, it won't get into too much detail, but first she was talking about how she first felt going into season three. She says, I always feel like I'm shitting my pants. It's terrifying,

[01:57:13] but it's a really exciting challenge. And luckily the design of the show and the concept of the show was such that we knew each season would get crazier and more chaotic and more violent and deranged. We at least had that going into it. Everything that happens this season in terms of the downward spiral of all these women and their younger selves was something that we'd thought of from the very beginning. I love that. Yeah, me too.

[01:57:38] She said she was excited for people to see the finale that and co-showrunner Bart Nickerson directed it. She said, I think he nailed it. Uh, it's got a lot of answers. People will be very satisfied in certain ways and hopefully want more at the same time. She said from the start, they've had a concept for how they want to end the series. Uh, she says, Jonathan Lisko, our co-showrunner has a saying, which is that making television is like building a plane as it's taking off. We always try to leave room for better ideas that may come.

[01:58:06] We pitched this show seven years ago. We have an end point in mind. We know where we're heading, but we have an absolute brilliant group of writers that we're working with. We have the writer's room. We have our incredible collaborators and our actors. So we know where we want to go, but we want to leave some room for how we get there. So she's still talking about it as if there's more to come, which, which is good. Yeah. That's reassuring. Yeah. I agree.

[01:58:35] Maybe they're having a hunt somewhere to decide if they will. Yes. We'll, we'll have season four, but we have to have, we have to have some games first. We have to draw some cards. Well, they got the Dexter show runner and all the show runners for the showtime shows and whoever survives their show gets to live on. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's it for the news. All right. Okay. So let's get into some listener buzz.

[01:59:04] Lisa Edmondson Walker says on a show known for shocking and WTF moments, they outdid themselves on this episode. Hannah shocked me. I'm dying to know what Misty saw on the phone. Oh, this is from last time. We now know that that was Callie's picture. And OMG van. I'm also wondering if Melissa decided to burn her whole life down, sending the tape blood all over her peaceful, boring house, murdering van,

[01:59:31] or if her wife knows far more about her than she led Shauna to believe. Maybe none of them are able to lead any kind of normal lives as adults. I mean, if what Hillary Swank is saying is true, that, that it sounds like the way she's playing is that Melissa was fine, but then what that like savage spirit just woke up in her and she decided to kill van. We still don't even know why she did that. Right. Really? Yeah. I mean, some could say it was self-defense. I mean,

[02:00:01] they were, they did have Melissa tied up and sitting there discussing what they should do with her. So some could say it was self-defense, but I think Lisa is exactly right. I think, um, Melissa was blowing up her life. That's what I think. Maybe she could have been doing it almost subconsciously too. People have been known to do that. Yep. Yeah. All right. Jason Burke says, thank you for reading my message on the podcast.

[02:00:31] It was very thrilling. I wish to expand upon my Wendigo theory theory. While I don't have a master's in folklore, I believe the werewolf type manifestations are skin walkers. Here's me doubling down on the Wendigo. Modern depictions, cinematic, but not folkloric present a gaunt creature with antlers. So the antler queen. Also, the legend suggests it can possess you if you partake in cannibalism.

[02:01:01] I don't know why tie would continually be haunted by it, but I think the man with no eyes is said Wendigo. I'm hoping for some confirmed supernatural slant. I do, however, hope the writers commit either way and avoid ambiguity in the end. Justice for coach and hobby. Yes. I agree. Actually with the justice for coach and hobby. Yeah. We don't see a lot of that though. No,

[02:01:31] not yet. No, I mean, the way coach went out was, was a pretty bleak, but I am glad that they gave him some good stuff to do this season. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. All right. Here's a call from Jenny Ryan. Hello, yellow jackets. Um, I'm very sad that the show was over. Um, at this point I have not yet seen the finale, but I have seen the penultimate episode. Um, and here are my thoughts about it. First of all,

[02:02:01] you're discussing the plane that the girls are on when they die. I think it's the plane they were rescued in. And that's why it looks different from the plane they were in originally. Um, also disappointed that none of you mentioned that the helicopter that Walter had belonged to Keith Morrison. People aren't aware. Keith Morrison is a big true crime guy. He's from Dateline, I think, and now has like true crime podcasts. So I thought that was a fun little Easter egg. I think they call those,

[02:02:31] I think. Didn't Walter and Misty talk about watching Dateline together or something? So I think maybe sounds like them. Yeah. I think it was Walter trying to impress her or something like that. Um, also I disagree with you that Lottie walked onto the pit. I think she walked near the pit. I don't think she actually got close to those. She got close to the twigs, but I don't think she walked onto the twigs. I think she stopped at the edge of them. Then why did Travis look like he was stunned?

[02:03:02] Well, I'm not sure. Watching Jesus walk on water to me. I mean, one, he does seem to be out of it. And I think sometimes we see what we want to see. Yeah. They didn't show her a feet on there. Yeah. I do like the idea that she was just able to do it because she didn't make any sudden movements and the supporting structures just held her up. That made more sense to me than anything else. To me, the,

[02:03:29] that log was so tiny that he threw on there. I didn't buy that. She would be able to go on it like that, but that's me. But, um, it did seem odd that they didn't actually show her feet, but then what's the point? Like it seemed like he was stunned that she was going on it. So I'm just confused by the whole thing. And that's why she didn't fall in. Cause she wasn't actually on the part and some thing told her to turn around or she turned around or whatever. Um, also,

[02:03:56] I think that tie has been dark tie the whole time. Um, so at the very end where van wakes her up and then something happens and then van says something like, like get her in Melissa's house and she's coming out of the stupor of the gas or whatever. And then tie looks, looks at her at van and van says, Oh, there she, there you are. There you are. And I think she's been dark tie the whole time. And that's why, um, there was the weird phone call with tie trying to get to van.

[02:04:26] And there was a van banging on the door trying to get in like good van. I mean, good tie. So I think that, that dark tie has been in charge this entire, the whole time they've been together. And, um, that's sad. Um, and that's why she's like, you got her in the end. You got, you got tie back. Like that was your treasure was to get back. The woman you love was like, you got the good one back. So I think tie is going to be demonstrably different in the next episode. Um,

[02:04:54] also I was wondering about the hair on the antler Queens get up. I feel like there were too many to be the people who are going to die. I wondered if maybe it's all the hair of people, like all their hair is on it. And as they die, they take the hair off. Yeah. I don't know. That could be interesting. Um, just flip it. Oh, one more thing. Um, the name of the little girl missing. We, we,

[02:05:19] you've talked about how this is similar to lost in ways and the, the little girl in lost who is taken for people who saw it, who didn't see it. There's a little baby that disappears. Um, and there's this French woman named Danielle. Who's trying to find her baby. And the baby's name is Alex. And Alex is kind of an unusual name for a baby girl. So, or a little girl. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, I don't know, tie in. Anyway, finally,

[02:05:48] just a little recount of who is left. So the people who make it out are Melissa, Ty, Travis, Nat, Lottie, Misty, Shauna, and Van, which means that in the next season, we're going to lose Robin, Britt, Mari, Jen, and Hannah. Uh, so five people still to go. So that's terrifying. Okay. Um, sorry for the long ramble. Um, I love you. Goodbye. Oh, thank you. So Jenny,

[02:06:18] some of those may make it out and die after though. Right. Maybe, or they could still be alive. I mean, we know she said Jen wasn't, but who knows? Right. I, I have to say hearing Jenny say that she thinks it's all the hair. Good job, Jenny. Well, she said she thinks every person had to give up a lock of hair. And then as they die, they take it off.

[02:06:47] That's what she said. I thought. She said all their hair. She said all their hair. But maybe she meant all of them. Yeah. She said, yeah. As each one dies, they take one off. Yeah. But it's, it's Mari. It's all Mari's hair. Yeah. And it was all the same hair too. Yeah. It all looked the same. Yeah. Yeah. Even in the pilot. I remember thinking that. Yes. All right. Amelie Rochette says, one, the first thing that comes to mind for me is maybe Melissa,

[02:07:16] deserved to eat her own flesh. Joke aside, I'm really interested to see what is going to happen with her character. Two, Hannah seems really smart in a way because she understood what she could do to stay alive and see her daughter again, even if she won't. And she was quick about it. It was pretty brutal, but I think she'll earn respect or fear from the girls after that, at least from crazy young Shauna who completely lost it. Three, most delicious moment, Misty getting busted with the black box by Nat.

[02:07:46] We have been wondering about this since the beginning. Bring on the drama. We haven't had enough, right? Can't wait to see what happens with that storyline. Four, sad to see Van go in this way. She was a good one. Now that leaves crazy Shauna, dark tie and Misty with no moral compass at all. What could go wrong? I always thought he was one of the good ones, but Travis plotting to kill Lottie in the pit. These kids are desperate.

[02:08:14] Can't wait to hear your analysis of this. Oh, so what the fuck fucked upness. Thank you, Amelie. That's great. I like her breakdown of points. All right. Here's a voicemail from our good friend, Archmester Rennie. Well, I lost track of how many times I said, I did not see that coming during episode nine. And I,

[02:08:44] I have an observation. I am planning on trusting this show to bring back all the little threads. They seem to have dropped to weave everything together and make it all come out in a satisfying way. And here's the thing that happened in this episode that made me feel that way. It was when Hannah said to Cody, who's Eric Chung? And Cody said,

[02:09:14] I bought that in a thrift store. I actually think it's true that he bought it in a thrift store, but Hannah was looking for some reason to distrust him and suspect him so that she could work herself up to killing him, which she did as a ploy to save her own life, to get in on good terms with the yellow jackets.

[02:09:40] So they put a lot of attention on that detail and they didn't throw it away. They made it pay off, but not maybe in the way that I at least expected. I hope they're going to do that with many more things and I'm going to trust them to do so. And I hope that you've been talking about some of those things in your coverage of episode 10. Buzz, buzz, buzz. Yay. I agree a hundred percent with that. That is what I thought.

[02:10:09] I thought that was her way of, of justifying it to herself. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, as I said, in our review of that episode, the show is a lot of times about making meaning when it's not actually there and then doing extreme things in the name of that. And so I think that fits in right in with that theme where you think on, on most shows, if there was a detail like that, it would mean that he was suspicious or that there was a reason to be suspicious of him. Although the way you put it,

[02:10:39] I guess you wouldn't even need that whole theme about the meaning making. It was just a reason for her to work, work herself up to be able to kill him. Yeah. Well, you know, too, Hannah says to Natalie, she just basically recounts the things she's had to do, like killing Cody and eating human flesh, like all of these things when she's talking to Natalie about she wants to go home. And yeah, I think that that tracks. Yeah.

[02:11:10] The things. I'm glad that Renny is on the train of let's trust the showrunners. I feel like if, if we have a season four episode one is just going to be like Shauna tomahawking Hannah. Yeah. There's a detail that needs cleaning up. Matt King says, really sad to see Van die. She's been the most normal in the modern era. Great to see the young and old bands together though. Yeah, I agree. I like that.

[02:11:40] Cause I think they've done especially well of like Lauren and Rose just nailed that portrayal to make it seem like the same person. Absolutely. Shauna continues her reign of fear in both eras. Would much rather Melissa had stabbed her or stabbed her. Misty again, stars in both ages. As usual, the interaction with Walter is so much fun. Maybe filmed Lottie dying on his phone. And young Misty finding the transponder from the black box,

[02:12:07] hoping to use it with the kit taken from the frog fanciers. And just what we needed Hannah going feral and taking Cody out viciously highlights of the week where Walter arriving in a helicopter to pick up Misty and the great scenes between Jeff and Callie. Jeff is one is the one to root for most for now in the modern era. And he even got the Joel's on board. Yes. I have to agree with you got to root for Jeff. And I think Misty always knew where the transponder and the black box were.

[02:12:37] I think she hit them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like it's something she revisited somewhere down the road. Yeah. Carly Jackson says, I'm listening to your podcast and I was so surprised that y'all didn't have a strong reaction to Van's death. I was sobbing so hard, especially when glycerine started. I love Van so much and I will miss her moral compass and her relationship with Ty. I was, I was, that was a moving scene.

[02:13:07] I was pretty upset the first watching. Yeah. I don't want her to die. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I think watching it when we do and then watching it multiple times, I think sometimes that takes maybe the initial emotional reaction away a little bit. Um, and that's why when we're talking about it, I felt a lot like, come across. Yeah. I felt a lot like coach with the episode where, um,

[02:13:35] they slit coaches Achilles tendon. Like, I thought he was going to die. Then I'm like, no, he's going to live. And then like, no, no, no, he's going to die. And then no, he's going to live. And then I'm sure they're going to stab him. That's how I felt about that episode. Like, yeah, I thought Melissa was going to die, but I was like, that doesn't make sense. Like why bring her back to then just killer on our kitchen floor? Like that makes no sense. Yeah. And so like, then I thought, you know, everybody was in danger and then finally it happened. Yeah.

[02:14:06] Tara. Andrew says, I think Travis killed Lottie. I think that's why we saw his attempt to kill her in this episode. I think we're going to get adult Travis in the last episode. Just a guess. Love your podcast. I mean, he's dead. He's dead, but maybe he isn't. Maybe he isn't. Did we, he was hanging, right? They found him. He was never on an airplane. And like they get those airplane sequences. We didn't get one with Lottie either.

[02:14:36] But Travis was not. Yeah. I mean, we didn't see a body, but. Yeah. I don't know. Yep. You never know what they're going to do. All right. Here's another voicemail from May Almardini. Hello, podcastica friends. This is May Almardini calling from Canada with some feedback on the last episode of Yellow Jackets. I've been dying to leave some feedback, but I haven't been able to, but I couldn't not leave feedback after this episode.

[02:15:04] Seeing Shauna just kind of go batshit crazy. And now the dots all connect. I kept seeing such a difference between the current timeline and then the teenage Shauna that it didn't make sense to me. But now they're just all merging into the same character. And it's more believable to me that those are the same person. I don't know if anybody noticed the blood on Shauna's face throughout the whole episode.

[02:15:33] It reminded me of Lottie after she killed the Frogger. And then it also made me wonder when she came back and married Jeff. We know that he says he loves her very much, but does she actually love Jeff or care for him? Or did she just marry him because she wanted to forget about what happened out there? And then I thought a little bit more about the guys on the show. You see Cody, who's a total meathead,

[02:16:01] and he's supposed to be this buff nature guy, yet he's absolutely clueless, and he keeps getting caught by these girls everywhere he goes until he just gets killed by Hannah. That's why it leads me to believe that Walter is actually not that sinister, and he also just really likes Misty. I do think they're throwing a lot of red herrings and trying to make us believe that he's up to no good. But I really don't think he set up Shauna.

[02:16:31] It's making me wonder if Ty actually killed Lottie because she was so sure that Shauna didn't do it when they were discussing it at Melissa's house. But yeah, so I don't think Walter is bad. I also think he's really cute. So I want him at the end with Misty. I really ship those two. He killed Kevin. I don't like him. No. My final... Actually, no, I have two more thoughts. One of them is that up until this point,

[02:17:01] I really believe that everything can be explained. But they did play a little bit with the supernatural, with Ty's vision when the phone rings. And I think when Van was telling her to breathe, when Van picked up the phone when she was looking for that cassette player or whatever, and the phone rang, I think she heard Ty on the other end while she was trying to wake her up from her carbon monoxide poisoning.

[02:17:31] I haven't listened to the podcast yet, so I'm not sure if you guys talked about this or not. But I thought it was really interesting because they always try to weave the supernatural around these two the most, I think, especially with Van's visions as well. So now I don't know what to believe. I was so sure that everything can be explained before. But now I'm not so sure. I also really thought that Van was going to kill herself. I was very shocked when Melissa did it. So there were two deaths out of left field for this episode.

[02:17:59] My final thought was going to be all about math and thinking about who made it out. If there were eight people in the final count, in that council, we've seen eight characters in the current timeline. So maybe no one else made it out. Unless, again, that was just a misdirection. And the other piece of math I had was just the murder count of everyone. So Misty's killed three. Shauna's killed one. Lottie's killed one. Nat's killed one. Melissa's killed one. And Hannah's killed one. Have I missed anyone?

[02:18:29] Have a great day, everyone. Buzz, buzz, buzz. I can't wait to hear what you say. Thanks, Mae. So yeah, we saw eight people at the Cannibal Council, but there's more than eight there, right? Yeah. So why is that? Were they just not at dinner? At dinner. At dinner. They were late. I, you know, part of that may just be because when they filmed that original thing,

[02:18:59] maybe they didn't really know. They didn't know. And so they tried to ambigify it, but it isn't really. I mean, TV fans have gotten so good at like paying attention to the little details that you're not going to miss something like that. You're going to count people. How many times I've gone back and counted the number of people at that council? Just to confirm it in my head. Yep. So we just have to not worry about it.

[02:19:30] Yep. Gotta let it go. Gotta let it go. Yeah. Thanks, Mae. Good to hear from you. It's been a while. Alicia Stouts says, another mesmerizing and fantastically insane episode. Well done. My fucked up moment of the week is Melissa killing Van. That's a pretty good one. And just when you think Van was going to end Melissa and can't go through with it, she turns on Van. I was so not expecting that. Me neither. Wow. Just wow.

[02:19:56] I'm still sticking with my theory that every yellow jacket will end up dead because they weren't supposed to survive the crash. It's also possible there could be one person who lives to keep the secret forever. Just like Shauna threatens while attacking Melissa in the adult timeline. That kind of goes with Ty saying if we don't do something, she's going to be the last one standing. Who will it be? Misty, Shauna, or Ty? Or are there any other survivors we have yet to see as adults? Melissa.

[02:20:24] It's also interesting that when each adult yellow jacket dies, we see them in a scene while sitting in their airplane seat. I'd also like to add that this show has easily become one of my top 10 favorite shows on TV. The writers, like, wow, where do they come up with these fucked up storylines? Are they just as mental as these girls? LOL. I mean, they might be. We don't know. Just kidding. Seriously, though, hand them the Emmy already. It's so deserved. One more thing. Finally, we're getting more pit scenes.

[02:20:52] Do you think pit girl gets revealed in the finale or will they keep us hanging? I think finale. I think finale. But I probably would have said no before. Me too. Yeah. Definitely. I think so. I've been thinking about what types of episodes we could do, like, in the downtime to kind of keep things going. One we've talked about is, like, the catalyst moments. Others, I'd like to go back through some of our feedback and pick out some of, like, the theories that people have and just talk about it.

[02:21:21] People who got it right. Yeah. Yeah, people who got it right. Yeah, that'd be cool. Just another idea. Sounds like fun. Anyway, that's something. All right. Ashton Purcell from Alabama says, hello, everyone. I'm starting to get major lost vibes when adult Yellow Jackets die. I know we've only witnessed Nat and Van on the plane after they die, but I have a feeling the season three finale is also going to show how Lottie's death actually happened.

[02:21:49] And we'll see her post-death plane ride with her younger self as well. If this series ends with half the fandom believing they were dead the whole time, I'm going to lose my misty fucking quickly mind. Oh, man. You got it half right. Yeah. That's how her death happened. Yep. So we heard from Liz Moore.

[02:22:18] Hi, you guys. Liz from L.A. here. My initial takeaway was, why are the writings doing this to us? What is happening? I couldn't really enjoy this episode because of the setting. Most of it takes place in Melissa's house with her family, our housekeeper coming back whenever or maybe even a neighbor saying, hey, you all right? I just saw a lady covered in blood walking in your front yard. Unfeasible, but I guess that's showbiz, right?

[02:22:44] I did not enjoy the return to the scene of the crime or break-in, but I understand how else would they keep them all together without them being outside. And everyone trying to pin Lottie's death on Shauna makes me think it wasn't her. And maybe it is Misty or Walter or Van or Ty. Why did Van die? How will Ty stay sane? Yes, I still need to know what happens to her. Good on Melissa for closing the flu.

[02:23:10] It slowed them all down, but also reminded me of the caves and the gases they were hallucinating on. Now that I got that off my chest, I would like to call out Nat, giving the knife to Hannah and Cody. The other girls were planning an escape. I was hoping at the end that the light Nat saw in the forest was rescue. I was so upset about all of them in the past time, still following Shipman and her decision to stay. Why?

[02:23:36] You guys, I'm looking for clues and I'm writing in because I am worried it will be over soon. I would love another season, but I don't think we're going to get one. I hope you're wrong. Liz, I hope you're wrong. I hope we do get another one. Yeah. Lucas Mackey from Evansville, Indiana says, I finally started watching Yellow Jackets last month and man, it is great. Oh, wow. Cool. Recent watcher.

[02:24:05] I binged and caught up, been enjoying your podcast. I don't know if you've nailed this down yet, but other podcasts seem confused on the timeline of the show and I think I've got it figured out. Consider me your Bureau of Citizen detective friend because you don't pay me, nor did you ask for my help, but here I am. In the pilot episode, Allie is telling Van while getting her face painted for the pep assembly that it's not fair she has to miss prom to go to nationals. Prom season is mid-April through May.

[02:24:32] At the pep assembly, the baseball team is being recognized and baseball is a universal spring sport, usually ending just before the end of the school year. In the nineties, many states had boys soccer in the fall, girls in the spring. Later that day at practice is when Allie breaks her leg. Well, Ty breaks Allie's leg. And the next day is the plane crash. So we can definitely assume that the plane crash happens in early to mid-May, 1996.

[02:24:58] If they were out there for 19 months, that puts them being rescued sometime in mid to late December, 1997. That also tracks with the flashback we see of the team in their hoodies being put on a plane in 1998 with the reporters yelling at them. This would be in early to mid-January, 1998. You can assume they would all have been taken somewhere nearby in Canada for medical treatment for a little while before being sent home. Side note, in that flashback, the official states the plane was 600 miles off its planned flight path.

[02:25:27] And the pilot in the first episode said they're going a little north to avoid a storm. So they'll get a good view of the Canadian Rockies. The flight path from New Jersey to Seattle would have them flying over Montana. So if you went 600 miles north of that near the Canadian Rockies, I think the crash site is due west of Edmonton, Alberta. And then he's continues on with the timeline stuff using this.

[02:25:49] We can also surmise that Shauna's baby is born in January or February of 97 since she was impregnated the night before they left in mid-May by Jeff. And it's winter when she delivers. Canadian Thanksgiving is the second Monday in October. So in 97, that would have been October 13th. Being that is the name of the episode, that would be the date they encounter the frog scientists. So that would mean that they're two months from being rescued at that point,

[02:26:14] which makes sense because we have yet to see the pit girl scene, which happens in winter, which I'm convinced that Hannah is pit girl. So it also stands to reason that pit girls killed Neaton very shortly, possibly days before the team gets rescued. And we know Hannah doesn't make it back because the article Callie finds says two scientists and a guide went missing. I used to think the rescue would happen early in season four and the bulk of season four would be them making their way back home,

[02:26:40] seeing their families, the school, et cetera, and staying close as to get their story straight. Season five would be them doing the bad things once they got home that they alluded to earlier, and then eventually going their separate ways and not speaking to each other until 2021. Now I'll think they'll drag these last two months before the rescue out for the bulk of season four. And the rescue might be the season four cliffhanger and season five will still, we'll all be at home.

[02:27:06] So sorry for the long email, but I think the timeline is important stuff and wanted to make sure all your listeners had that info. As always, I really enjoy the podcast and keep up the good work. Thanks. I mean, I think your earlier way you said you thought it might go is actually more close to what you then switched to. Yeah. Yeah. That is an amazing breakdown. Yeah. Everything and kind of tracks with what we've said about like Canadian Thanksgiving and the timing of things.

[02:27:36] So, yeah, I think that's great. I do not, I don't know, and I don't know if I've mentioned this, I don't know that there's two more seasons of this show. I think it's like one, maybe one and a half. It could do two, but.

[02:27:59] Well, they may have something in mind that we don't know about and they always plan to have Pit Girl at the end of season three and they have it all mapped out, you know, that's kind of what I'm hoping. Yeah. Yeah. Because they've always said five. So, if it's actually only four now, that means they had to change their plans or decided to for whatever reason. Yeah. If it's five, I hope it's not dragged out.

[02:28:23] Like, I hope that they continue the pacing that we've had because it's been very much appreciated. Yeah. And these last few episodes have just been so shocking and entertaining. But I do think the core mysteries of the show have been answered. So, it's hard to keep going. Yeah. We were driving towards this point the whole time. Yeah. In my head. That's why I didn't expect it. Yeah. No. Same. Yeah. All right.

[02:28:53] Anna from Ukraine. So, nice to hear from you, Anna. Hello, everyone. Anna from Ukraine here. The thing that I feared the most happened, Van Dyde. And I wouldn't say it wasn't unpredictable because she was literally dying from cancer. But I don't know. I'm simply disappointed and sad how Van Dyde. Out of all the people, Melissa the Hat. I love that she calls her Melissa the Hat. That's hilarious. Melissa the Hat murders her. Because why?

[02:29:22] It would be way more effective, in my opinion, if Melissa was more of a developed character in both timelines, that we could know her motives, or at least if we saw more interactions between adult Van and Melissa. But no more. It just sucks ass. Instead of evolving the characters, the writers went for shock value. I truly have no words, only emotions on how it's truly devastating to see a queer character die after love proclamation.

[02:29:50] Yep, it's a bury your days trope. And I truly don't see what was the point of Van and Lottie's deaths. Lottie's death so that Misty could start investigating. If someone random in their area would be murdered, she would investigate anyway. Van's death to unlock something in Thaisa. But Thaisa was already battling her two personalities and was ready to kill somebody.

[02:30:16] Still suspicious of the introduction of Melista. Did we need another survivor? I don't know. But I guess it costs losing another two great characters with big potential. I'm sad, as you probably noticed by this rant. I don't think that the writers know how to continue the adult storyline. I've lost hope in them. So just like that, they lost a viewer. I will still listen to your podcast and maybe we'll lurk about what will happen in the show.

[02:30:45] But yeah, I'm dropping off my Yellow Jackets fan badge. P.S. I stopped caring who killed Lottie, but it's probably Melissa or suicide. Bye and have a nice week. It's funny that she said almost exactly what Lauren Ambrose said. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Is this Lauren Ambrose? Just kidding. Yeah, I don't blame you. I mean, yeah, if you're not digging it and everything you say, I kind of agree with.

[02:31:12] And I'm just hoping that, like I said, once the story's all said and done, that it will feel more meaningful. But it's to the point, like when Van died, I think I was like, all right, I'm just not going to let myself get too attached to these characters. And I'm just going to enjoy what I like about the show, which is a lot. And hope that this all is, you know, makes sense somehow. And because it just felt so abrupt and weird. Yeah. Yeah. I think I reached my point with that when Coach died. Yeah.

[02:31:41] I'm hoping that we get some indication of how this, how the deaths are catalysts to something bigger that will help people process it. At least that's what I'm hoping. I don't know. I guess we'll see. Walking Dead does a good job of that a lot of the time. Yeah. So Tam from Perth says, hi and happy Friday to everyone who could possibly still be in shock over this latest episode.

[02:32:08] First up, I was like, OK, Van for the win with the OK. What is that? Double O quickly. Oh, with the OK double O quickly sarcasm, because I thought that still beat Melissa eating her own flesh. But the actual winner is Hannah with the pocket knife in the face. This show is so messed up on so many levels and they just keep giving us more. I fucking love it. Except for that last bit. Someone better fucking kill Melissa.

[02:32:36] I'm off to do some day drinking and raise my glass to my fave and wait for your pod to drop. Valet Van? That's a good, that's a good way to like make it. You introduce a new character played by Hilary Swank. Presumably they want people to be into the character. It's kind of dangerous before we get to know her to have her kill a fan favorite. Yes. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I'm still interested because I love Hilary Swank so much, but there is that bit that's

[02:33:05] like, ah, you're the one that got rid of this other character. Yeah, I think that you're right. I think dangerous is a good word for it. Because Van, teen and adult Van, like top on a lot of people's lists. Annabelle Berrier says, heartbreaking episode. We knew Van was going to pass away at some point, but still, I have to say I have a soft spot for the Van-Ty relationship in the teen timeline, but less in the adult timeline. I can see that.

[02:33:35] I knew we couldn't trust Melissa at all. She's as fucked up as Shauna and she believes in it. Jeez. All right. Gloria Lettery Hernan says, I am devastated that my favorite character Van is dead. Oh, Melissa, you evil little bitch. Ty is going to kill you. Question. When Nat died, did she immediately went to the plane? When Van dies, same thing.

[02:34:03] Why didn't Lottie go to the plane too? What is that about? I agree with that. Also, I'm not convinced that whoever Javi supposedly was, was in the tree cave. A woman isn't still out there. And what happened to Crystal's body? Dead bodies don't get up and walk away. Buzz, buzz, buzz. Those are a few mysteries that are still out there. Adir ate it. Yeah. Lottie may have, I mean, I think they didn't show the plane with Lottie because they wanted

[02:34:32] to keep it more mysterious than that. She may have gone to the plane. We just didn't see it. Yeah. And last one, Natalie Collins. Why didn't we see dead Lottie on the plane? Yes. Question. Yep. Big question. Writers. They want to know. Yes. Oh, man. I hope we have an announcement by the time we get to our feedback episode. Yeah.

[02:35:01] I feel like we're going to have to release a 10-minute celebration episode. Yeah. After. Yeah. If we find out it's renewed. Yeah. Of just us, like, clinking glasses. Yeah. Or pouring one out if it's the other way. Yeah. Yeah. All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. We appreciate you guys.

[02:35:31] Next up, a special feedback episode for the season three finale and the season as a whole. Probably come out a week or a week and a half. Yeah. Yeah. Might be a little bit. Yeah. So if you didn't get a chance, well, we're doing it because we put these out early and, you know, we want people to have a chance to weigh in on the finale. Yeah. Yes. If you want to write in or send us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact

[02:35:59] information at podcastgo.com. While you're there, be sure to check out our other shows. If you like us three, then you should listen to us talk about The Handmaid's Tale. Yep. Yes. If you can stand it. Yes. I mean, we did drop a, what, three hour episode on the first three episodes of the series of the season? Yep. This is a three hour episode. I know. It is. Oh my God. Yeah. That's good. It was a finale. Yeah. It deserves it. All right. Yeah.

[02:36:28] That is our show. Thanks for listening. Buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz.