578: Civil War (2024)

[00:00:00] SITIZENS OF AMERICA

[00:00:02] People of Florida Alight

[00:00:04] You got a move!

[00:00:06] And the Western Forces of Texas and California

[00:00:09] You got a move!

[00:00:11] We'll be welcome back to these United States

[00:00:14] as soon as their illegal secessionist government is deposed.

[00:00:18] You don't know what side they're fighting for.

[00:00:21] Someone's trying to kill you.

[00:00:23] You don't know what side they're fighting for.

[00:00:25] You don't know what side they're fighting for.

[00:00:30] Someone's trying to kill us.

[00:00:32] We are trying to kill them.

[00:00:34] The Cast of Us

[00:00:36] A podcast dedicated to the show.

[00:00:57] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:14] I'm Jason.

[00:01:15] And I'm David.

[00:01:16] And I'm Jim.

[00:01:17] And this is the Cast of Us episode 578.

[00:01:26] And this episode we're covering the new dystopian Alex Garland movie, Civil War.

[00:01:31] And this episode we're covering the new dystopian Alex Garland movie, Civil War.

[00:01:37] In theaters now.

[00:01:38] In theaters now.

[00:01:39] Go see it.

[00:01:40] Well welcome guys, welcome David and Jim.

[00:01:42] Glad to have you guys on.

[00:01:43] It is awesome to be here, yeah.

[00:01:45] Absolutely.

[00:01:46] I feel like dystopian is part of the name of this film.

[00:01:48] I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned without that word.

[00:01:51] Yeah, I didn't even remember writing that.

[00:01:54] It just appeared naturally.

[00:01:56] Well, Lucy's out this week.

[00:01:59] She moved into her new place.

[00:02:01] She's been in the theater for a while now.

[00:02:04] She's been in the theater for a week.

[00:02:06] She moved into her new place.

[00:02:08] She's unpacking boxes and everything.

[00:02:10] And I thought before we jump back into the rewatch, we would cover this movie.

[00:02:14] First I'll mention, I mean, I'm sure most of you recognize David.

[00:02:18] He's guested several times on the podcast.

[00:02:20] We've also podcasted together on Westworld, Better Call Saul,

[00:02:23] and most recently Squid Game, which I think they just announced

[00:02:26] will definitely be back this year.

[00:02:28] So excited about that for season two.

[00:02:30] Very excited about that.

[00:02:31] Yeah.

[00:02:32] I've seen a few on this podcast, but you've been a listener since episode three.

[00:02:36] Yeah.

[00:02:37] So yeah, episode three, The Mist, which at the time I wasn't a zombie guy.

[00:02:42] I was just looking for a podcast to talk about The Mist,

[00:02:45] a Stephen King movie that nobody I knew had seen or cared about.

[00:02:49] And I find this podcast and...

[00:02:52] And we talked about that because we were looking for things to talk about

[00:02:56] before The Walking Dead ever started and Frank Daribot directed The Mist

[00:02:59] and there were some Walking Dead actors in it.

[00:03:01] So we decided to cover it and that's how he found us.

[00:03:03] So yeah, so I ended up bridging there and, you know, 14 years later here.

[00:03:07] I am talking about a movie for my debut, which is really cool.

[00:03:10] I'm pretty excited about that.

[00:03:12] So full circle.

[00:03:13] So this will be fun.

[00:03:14] Cool.

[00:03:15] That's awesome.

[00:03:16] It's great to have you, Jim.

[00:03:17] I got to say that I had not seen The Mist and I watched it too

[00:03:21] because I got dragged into it with Karen

[00:03:23] because you guys were potting about it.

[00:03:25] And that movie has stuck with me.

[00:03:27] Like the ending of that movie is still fine disturbing.

[00:03:30] I know.

[00:03:31] A drag.

[00:03:32] I won't spoil it, but if you want to feel good movie, don't go see that one.

[00:03:35] Oh, go see that one for sure.

[00:03:37] But I also want to mention that Jim's appeared on one of our more recent podcasts,

[00:03:42] Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast with Penny and Cara.

[00:03:45] And you're going to be a regular with them when they start covering Angels.

[00:03:48] Is that right?

[00:03:49] I don't know what you're talking about, Jason.

[00:03:51] I have no idea what you're talking about.

[00:03:53] Buffy Fan.

[00:03:55] No, it's great.

[00:03:56] You're going to be proud.

[00:03:58] We are guesting for now and maybe they'll be an announcement someday.

[00:04:01] Maybe.

[00:04:02] I'm not really sure.

[00:04:03] Okay, we don't know.

[00:04:04] All right.

[00:04:05] And before we get into Civil War, I want to make an announcement,

[00:04:10] which is that this summer David and Karen and I are heading out to Scotland

[00:04:15] to visit Lucy and Peter and see the sights.

[00:04:18] And I'm super excited about that.

[00:04:20] And we decided we're going to do a meetup at an as yet undetermined pub

[00:04:25] in Glasgow on Wednesday, July 17th.

[00:04:28] So if you can, we would totally love to see you there.

[00:04:31] I posted this on Facebook and a bunch of people have already shown interest.

[00:04:34] I know sometimes people get a little nervous about actually meeting in person.

[00:04:38] And I was too when I was doing Walker Stalker Connen decided to start doing meetups.

[00:04:42] I was like, I don't know, but I figured out right away they were really fun

[00:04:46] and they were a blast.

[00:04:47] And now I totally look forward to it.

[00:04:49] If you're out there in Europe and anywhere close, you should definitely come.

[00:04:54] I'll put an event on Facebook so people can RSVP and get the information

[00:04:58] and stuff at some point.

[00:05:00] So with all that taken care of, it's Civil War.

[00:05:03] Now, I want to talk a little bit about why we're covering this movie,

[00:05:10] mostly because we loved it and it seems like a good fit for this podcast.

[00:05:15] I don't know if it's strictly post-apocalyptic, but it feels like it.

[00:05:19] It's like mid-apocalyptic maybe and it's dystopian, as we said.

[00:05:22] It had a bit of a last of us feel to me.

[00:05:25] So I think if you like last of us, you'll probably dig it.

[00:05:29] But fair warning, it's also about our country.

[00:05:33] Well, in the United States, having a Civil War, it's graphic.

[00:05:37] It's disturbing because it hits closer to home for a lot of us.

[00:05:42] So there's that aspect to it.

[00:05:44] So if you don't like that, it might not be for you.

[00:05:46] But I would recommend it.

[00:05:47] I also think Alex Garland is a brilliant filmmaker.

[00:05:50] He wrote the screenplay for 28 days later way back when he wrote and directed

[00:05:54] Ex Machina, one of my favorites and Devs, the TV show, which was very good.

[00:05:58] He's also written another sequel to 28 Days and Weeks Later called 28 Years Later

[00:06:04] that's going to be directed by Danny Boyle coming up soon.

[00:06:07] I don't know how soon, but maybe next year.

[00:06:10] So yeah, I'm into it.

[00:06:11] What about you guys?

[00:06:12] Would you recommend like if people don't want to get spoiled that they should

[00:06:15] just stop listening and go watch it or what?

[00:06:18] Yeah, I mean, I think that every discussion I've had about this movie has been

[00:06:26] interesting in that it's never been the same conversation.

[00:06:29] So A, I think it's a great go see no matter where you lie in like today's politics

[00:06:35] or if you're not political, I think it's worth going to see just because it

[00:06:39] definitely treads some really cool lines.

[00:06:42] So I think it's one if you get to this point and you want to listen to this

[00:06:46] podcast, I have a feeling we're going to be veering in all kinds of different

[00:06:49] directions.

[00:06:50] So go see the movie.

[00:06:51] It's and if you can see it in IMAX, I have not seen it in IMAX.

[00:06:55] I've seen it in a regular theater and it was pretty amazing.

[00:06:58] But if you can see it in IMAX, go see it.

[00:07:00] It's going to definitely make you think and then come and listen to our

[00:07:05] conversation because I think it's going to be a good one.

[00:07:08] Yeah, I mean, I think it's an upsetting film for anyone who has normal human

[00:07:14] feelings.

[00:07:16] But besides being a really good movie, I think there are also topics here in

[00:07:24] terms of not just politics but war and all the divisive things that are going

[00:07:29] on in the world right now that people are likely to have about this film

[00:07:33] before they have even seen it.

[00:07:36] So if you're going to listen to us try to analyze it, probably would make a lot

[00:07:40] more sense to have watched it first.

[00:07:42] Yeah.

[00:07:43] And I know some people don't care about spoilers and find, yeah, listen to

[00:07:47] us first.

[00:07:48] But either way, I would recommend seeing it.

[00:07:52] And before we get started with discussion, I just want to touch on

[00:07:56] something which is that I'm not sure exactly how much this comes through.

[00:08:01] I kind of think a lot, but I'm not sure.

[00:08:03] But I'm a pretty political person and most podcasts I listen to are actually

[00:08:08] political podcast and tech, political and tech.

[00:08:11] Karen and I decided early on that we didn't want to alienate people by

[00:08:15] being too political on this podcast, especially not in a way where we

[00:08:19] denigrate people for their political alliances or views.

[00:08:23] And one thing I really like about The Walking Dead and The Last of Us 2

[00:08:26] and this podcast is that they kind of transcend those political lines.

[00:08:30] There's something that people come from different political backgrounds

[00:08:32] can connect on.

[00:08:34] And I just think that's such an important thing to maintain in our

[00:08:37] culture.

[00:08:38] And I think it's one of the points of this movie, honestly.

[00:08:40] But that said, this is a movie about a civil war in the United States.

[00:08:43] I don't know what we're going to say on this episode, but I just

[00:08:45] want to put it out there that this one might be more political

[00:08:48] than we usually do.

[00:08:49] And hopefully that's all right with you guys.

[00:08:51] If not, you should probably stop listening.

[00:08:56] So all that said, usually we start off just kind of saying in general

[00:09:01] how we liked it.

[00:09:03] So Jim, want to go first?

[00:09:05] Yeah, I love movies that make me silent.

[00:09:11] I don't really know how to describe it.

[00:09:14] I too just, Oppenheimer, there was a scene in Oppenheimer

[00:09:18] and I'm not going to give any spoilers to that.

[00:09:20] But there was a scene in Oppenheimer where at the tail end of the

[00:09:23] movie, there were these water drops on a pond and I started crying

[00:09:27] and the whole theater was like dead silent.

[00:09:30] And that made me think of another movie called

[00:09:33] Saving Private Ryan where the first 45 minutes I'd never seen

[00:09:37] such a visceral silent reaction to people just in awe of what

[00:09:42] was happening in front of them.

[00:09:44] And I had multiple moments in this movie that kind of connected

[00:09:49] me to those two movies, including maybe one of the best scenes

[00:09:55] in a movie I've seen in a while, which I'll get to at some point.

[00:09:58] But I mean, this isn't a movie that I enjoyed in a,

[00:10:04] I mean, I didn't walk out smiling, but I certainly walked out

[00:10:08] talking or thinking.

[00:10:11] I don't know if it's Alex Garland's best movie,

[00:10:14] but I think he's got some bests in here.

[00:10:18] The cinematography, the kind of bouncing back and forth that he does.

[00:10:23] The artistry of it.

[00:10:25] Yeah, and the sound design of it too.

[00:10:28] I cannot, as far as movie going experience, it was fantastic.

[00:10:35] Yeah, I agree with everything you just said, Jim.

[00:10:40] This is not funny or entertaining in the way that some movies are.

[00:10:47] One thing I would add is this is really a movie.

[00:10:50] And I think in a lot of ways, television series have become

[00:10:53] the dominant art form between quote unquote big screen and small screen.

[00:10:58] Our screens in our houses are pretty big now too.

[00:11:01] For thought provoking serious kinds of things, right?

[00:11:05] Yeah, well, and I would say where maybe the best talent is going

[00:11:08] the most creative work is being done.

[00:11:11] Yeah.

[00:11:12] But this was a real movie experience, like go to a movie,

[00:11:16] pay attention to it for two hours and be absorbed in the experience,

[00:11:21] which was very intense.

[00:11:23] So I thought that's part of what he set out to create

[00:11:27] and he did.

[00:11:29] And then also just agree about Alex Garland.

[00:11:32] I don't think this is my favorite of his work,

[00:11:34] but his work is just thought provoking.

[00:11:36] You walk out of the theater or out of the TV series thinking about

[00:11:40] some things you didn't think about before.

[00:11:43] And I think he usually leaves you with not with a finished product,

[00:11:47] but with sort of food for further thought.

[00:11:50] Yes.

[00:11:51] That's a great experience.

[00:11:52] Yeah.

[00:11:53] I like the movie more after thinking about it for a while.

[00:11:57] X Maken is one of my all time favorite movies.

[00:12:00] So I would put that at the top of his.

[00:12:04] Devs is very good.

[00:12:06] I think I might like this more, but I don't know.

[00:12:08] It's close.

[00:12:09] I actually really love Devs.

[00:12:11] Yeah.

[00:12:12] I find that to be very original and absorbing and clever.

[00:12:15] And Nick Offerman was in it too.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:18] Three, I think of the main cast of Devs were in this film.

[00:12:22] Sawyer, Sawyer.

[00:12:24] Wait, what's her name?

[00:12:25] Sonoya.

[00:12:26] Sonoya.

[00:12:27] Oh yeah.

[00:12:28] That's a no.

[00:12:29] That's a no.

[00:12:30] Kindly spanish, right?

[00:12:31] I think it was in this one and Stephen McKenley Henderson.

[00:12:34] Yeah.

[00:12:35] They were both.

[00:12:36] Who's the older reporter?

[00:12:37] Sonoya Mizuno is the embedded reporter that they meet towards the end.

[00:12:41] That's with the military.

[00:12:43] Gotcha.

[00:12:44] Well, so then there were four of them actually.

[00:12:45] Yeah.

[00:12:46] Yeah.

[00:12:47] She was the star of Devs.

[00:12:49] So I went and I think probably most people did thinking that this was going to be left versus right Civil War, you know.

[00:12:58] And mega versus Antifa or something.

[00:13:02] And I actually felt disappointed that it wasn't because it was pretty clear pretty soon in that that's not what it was going to be.

[00:13:14] And I decided to let go of that.

[00:13:17] You know, I made a choice in the moment and appreciate it for what it was.

[00:13:20] And then I thought it was a thrilling and disturbing movie.

[00:13:23] And I thought, man, this is almost like an action movie except the death is weighty.

[00:13:28] It's not ever throw away.

[00:13:31] You feel something every time there's violence, which is something to be said for this movie.

[00:13:35] I hate John Wick.

[00:13:37] Sorry everybody, but I hate movies like that where people just get wasted left and right.

[00:13:42] And it's supposed to be fun.

[00:13:44] But anyway, that's a little side.

[00:13:46] But afterwards I thought about it more and looked into it.

[00:13:51] And I came to appreciate it much more for not feeding into that left versus right thing.

[00:13:56] And I was examining why I wanted to enclave that and thinking about what the movie was actually saying.

[00:14:01] And then I loved it.

[00:14:03] I really, really love this movie.

[00:14:05] Watched again last night through that filter and loved it even more.

[00:14:09] So one answer to that, Jason, before we get into the details.

[00:14:13] And I'm going to contradict myself later and talk about this in more detail about the movie being left versus right or not.

[00:14:21] But one conclusion I came to after the fact is that the movie he wanted to make could not have been told if it had been a left versus right story.

[00:14:32] Because he really wanted to focus on those photojournalists.

[00:14:37] That experience is fundamentally not a one side or the other experience.

[00:14:42] Shouldn't be anyways.

[00:14:44] Yeah, right.

[00:14:46] And he's seeing these journalists as heroes and the good kind of objective journalism, not what's not even journalism where somebody has a point of view and is just trying to put it out there.

[00:14:58] And I think there's so much because he left a lot to talk about that there's so much to talk about, of course.

[00:15:07] And so maybe the things I just said about it you guys won't agree with him.

[00:15:11] We'll get into that.

[00:15:12] But anyway, let's get into our points.

[00:15:14] Jim, what do you have for your first one?

[00:15:16] Well, so I was going to start big and we've already kind of skirted the expectation versus reality will probably come back to that.

[00:15:22] So I'm just going to focus on something nice and narrow and maybe it'll bring a bigger discussion.

[00:15:27] As I mentioned before, one of my favorite scenes in a movie in recent memory was in this and that was the scene that starts at the tail end of one scene and then bleeds into another.

[00:15:42] And that's when they are sitting outside of a mall overlooking a battle that's happening in the distance and they decide to go to this battle.

[00:15:51] And it's a nice calm scene in this wave of a movie where we have calm followed by violence, followed by calm followed by violence.

[00:15:59] And it's funny, the second time that I saw this and I knew what was going to happen next, I knew they were going into this battle, this urban warfare battle.

[00:16:11] And then there's a moment where it shifts from the quiet of that scene of them going to sleep to this man standing behind a pillar, getting just pelted with machine gun fire into this crazy hectic scene where some people have uniforms and some people don't.

[00:16:28] I'm not really sure who's on what side and our press is with these men wearing kind of Hawaiian shirts.

[00:16:38] And this scene progresses to a point where they climb up into a building and they kill a man.

[00:16:47] And then this day last soul song pops on say no more.

[00:16:52] And then we watch these men that these people in Hawaiian shirts have captured kind of marched out to this day last soul song that's playing in the background.

[00:17:04] You've got one reporter laughing and you've got one reporter sitting on the ground watching this happen.

[00:17:10] And you've got our main character kind of sitting off in the side kind of knowing what's going to happen with the grim face.

[00:17:16] And this really surreal experience of watching these Americans getting mowed down by this man with a machine gun while this day last soul song is playing.

[00:17:28] Is that the three soldiers in the camo?

[00:17:31] Yes.

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:34] It's this whole experience of watching our two main characters, Chloe and Kirsten Dunst, and watching them kind of...

[00:17:49] Jesse.

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:51] Jesse.

[00:17:52] Watching them kind of traverse through this battle knowing that someone could die at any moment.

[00:17:58] And then we see a death right in front of our eyes and then we watch these other Americans just get killed.

[00:18:02] And in the meantime, everybody else is just sort of standing there.

[00:18:06] And then to be with Day Last Soul in the background and you thinking that this is happening right here in the United States in Pittsburgh, I think.

[00:18:16] It just was one of those kind of roller coaster rides that let me know just how serious this movie was going to be and just how script flipping it was going to be.

[00:18:26] And I didn't know what to expect going into this movie and this was the scene that really kind of set me on my toes.

[00:18:32] It was jarring, the sounds were jarring, the music was jarring, nothing sort of fit together.

[00:18:38] And it's still transfixed in my mind, me trying to put it together, watching just this not knowing who was on what side and seeing it through the lens of a photographer and watching these people get killed.

[00:18:52] Yeah, I just love the scene and love the music and love the sound design in the scene.

[00:18:58] And also how they would like because we're seeing it through photojournalist point of view, they would sometimes do that thing where you just have a bunch of photographs of this horror happening in front of you.

[00:19:10] That was an interesting idea.

[00:19:12] You'd see that freeze frame moment.

[00:19:14] Yeah, freeze frame.

[00:19:15] And then it would move quickly again and be loud again.

[00:19:18] And then you'd see that freeze frame moment and the sound would dissipate.

[00:19:21] Yeah, just really set the tone for me.

[00:19:24] Yep.

[00:19:25] I mean, yeah, because like I said, all the violence was so weighty and tragic and horrible.

[00:19:32] And I guess coming into it, I should have known better because it's Alaskarlin, but I thought, oh, this is just going like a horror movie exploitation of our fears of the divide in this country right now,

[00:19:46] which is that sort of horror movies do a lot of time to exploit current fears.

[00:19:50] Fine, I guess.

[00:19:51] But it wasn't that.

[00:19:52] I think it was a warning and a thoughtful warning.

[00:19:56] David, do you want to?

[00:19:58] Yeah, just following up on that.

[00:20:00] I think it is interesting how this movie treats violence and what our emotional reaction is to it.

[00:20:07] One of the things I was thinking about after watching this movie is how many deaths do you think you've seen portrayed at this point in your life, like through all forms of entertainment plus actual news?

[00:20:21] Does it count when Grand Muff Tarkin blew up Alderaan?

[00:20:26] Because that's billion.

[00:20:28] Yes, that counts as 10 billion.

[00:20:32] I mean, actually on camera, it's tens of thousands.

[00:20:37] And I think you made this point earlier, Jason.

[00:20:40] Sometimes it's just cartoony nonsense.

[00:20:43] Most of the time, I think, almost or a lot of times.

[00:20:46] Yeah, sometimes it's shock value.

[00:20:49] I would say this is one of the closest things I've seen to what you can imagine it might be like to actually witness some of those things.

[00:21:00] Karen and I watched a documentary called 20 Days in Marriapole, which was about the Ukraine-Russia war from just a couple years ago.

[00:21:10] Amazing film.

[00:21:12] One of the things I paradoxically felt in that film, though, as horrifying as it is.

[00:21:19] And that is a film in which at least most of us bring sort of a rooting for one side to it.

[00:21:26] But as disturbing and sad as it was, I felt like the violence almost was not disturbing enough.

[00:21:35] There wasn't that much, really.

[00:21:37] Maybe you see a body here and there.

[00:21:40] But it's very rare from a real-world event as much as it is covered that you actually get that feeling of what it might be like to experience that, the shock, the disassociation, maybe the emotion or lack of emotion as you are around it.

[00:21:58] And I think to your point, Jim, this movie did a great job of bringing that to life in a few different battle situations that were all a little different from each other.

[00:22:09] One was that crazy scene where they were invading the building.

[00:22:16] One was the scene with the sniper, which was kind of a call-out to some other war movies like Saving Private Ryan.

[00:22:24] And then really the last maybe 20 minutes of the movie, they were embedded with the Western forces and it was this extended sort of urban warfare scene.

[00:22:34] But he really brought that to life in a way that was both impactful and I think dissociative a little bit.

[00:22:41] And there was when Lee's up, I guess she had to walk up 10 flights of stairs and then she's in the bath in the hotel.

[00:22:48] And I think we're just seeing some of the things that are on her mind and it's a series of chaotic moments, one of which is I think if I'm remembering right because we had to watch in the theater.

[00:22:59] We couldn't pause and stuff but there was a man inside of a tire who'd been doused with gasoline and sat on a tire.

[00:23:06] And that's just like her going over the events of the last week or something like that.

[00:23:11] And of course, I mean, I don't know if this counts with what you're saying but there's the scene with Todd from Breaking Bad.

[00:23:18] Yeah, I mean that was the hardest scene to watch in the movie by far I would say.

[00:23:23] Most disturbing.

[00:23:25] But I don't want to get into that right now.

[00:23:27] I want to get into my first point which is a bit of a long one.

[00:23:31] It's my only long one but I just wanted to warn you.

[00:23:34] I think this movie is a warning about the dangers of polarization and division.

[00:23:40] I was craving a detailed view of how our political differences could escalate into something like this but I think the point is that the details of the issues don't matter as much as giving into the hatred, polarization and extremism as a way to handle our differences.

[00:23:57] Like I don't want to be dismissive and say the issues don't matter they absolutely do climate change is my biggest issue.

[00:24:03] I think it fucking matters because I don't want our planet to die.

[00:24:07] But I also think it's important and this is a warning like I said about the dangers of polarization and division.

[00:24:13] Alex Garland had this really good interview on Pod Save America.

[00:24:17] Did you guys hear either one you hear that?

[00:24:19] It's worth.

[00:24:20] Yeah, and I'm going to go through some of the highlights.

[00:24:23] He started writing it in the summer of 2020 which was before January 6th, which was in 2021.

[00:24:30] He wrote it because he was anxious over the state of things in his own country which is the UK as well as around the world.

[00:24:36] So he meant for it to be more broad to not just about what's happening in the United States or what could happen.

[00:24:43] He mentioned in the interview some smart people said if you use violent language it will lead to actual violence eventually and then that turned out to be true with January 6th.

[00:24:53] I knew that too.

[00:24:55] I knew with the way Trump was talking that there was going to be some violence.

[00:24:59] I was not surprised at that and death even.

[00:25:02] How many times many of us had that conversation in 2016, 2017, 2018?

[00:25:08] If he loses this is going to happen and they have it happen.

[00:25:12] He'll say it was rigged and then he'll you know and the way he's calling people vermin and enemy of the people.

[00:25:19] That's what happens.

[00:25:21] In Pod Save America Alex Garland said he was hoping to start a conversation with this movie rather than giving answers and when the interviewer John Favreau asked what conversation was the opening start.

[00:25:31] He said he wanted to start a he center left and he wanted to start a conversation with the center right asking what are our points of agreement.

[00:25:42] He realized at some point he's not extreme left wing but left of center and that he had been framing politics of left and right but he cares more now about the issue of centrism or I would say moderate.

[00:25:56] I don't know if it's as simple as this but centrism he said versus extremism.

[00:26:02] He said he has far more in common with someone from the center right than either extreme and he said and I don't necessarily agree with all of this but it's interesting to talk about.

[00:26:12] He says he realizes that what you do want is for either side to keep trading power back and forth over time which is how our country has been but that extremism ends up posing an existential threat versus that normal back and forth.

[00:26:29] And you know I was thinking that means we can't let polarization push us all to the extremes and right then John Favreau asked when one party is moving more to the extreme how do you counter that without being extreme yourself.

[00:26:46] And he said well in the UK.

[00:26:49] His side was failing to contain right wing extremism but now the UK I guess is voting in the left side I don't really know what's going on but he said in his country the right is collapsing under its own madness and the left just had to wait and stay centrist.

[00:27:03] But he said that's like not a cure all in one way to counter it might be to stop demonizing the center right.

[00:27:09] He brought up Hillary Clinton saying calling people a basket of deplorables and he said he didn't see how that consensus could be made with talk like that it would just make things worse.

[00:27:20] He said he has friends who are Trump voters in right wing and not deplorable and that some people have those beliefs just because how they were brought up just like he has his beliefs mostly because how he was brought up.

[00:27:30] It's a mistake to make an ethical judgment based on voting preferences he said you can make an ethical judgment if you're racist or something like that but not based on whether they believe in the free market which he doesn't happen to believe in but it's you know something you can debate and talk about.

[00:27:45] He says some people tell him this film is apolitical he says that's only true of politics is just left versus right but it should be much broader.

[00:27:53] I was trying to figure out the president in the movie played by Nick Garferman.

[00:27:58] He's a three term fascist so I was thinking okay he's right wing fascism is right wing but Garland said he was presenting him as an extension of extremism fascism in a broad sense authoritarian but not necessarily born from the right.

[00:28:13] So I think it was his intention to sort of keep that unclear what matters most is that it's extreme authoritarian and he said a movie can be anti Donald Trump without being anti right wing.

[00:28:24] He says he's even unclear whether Donald Trump is right wing he thinks he's given indications of being unbalanced and authoritarian but right wing thinking isn't that.

[00:28:35] And he said the left wing's job to combat authoritarianism is to win elections and to win elections you have to convince some people from the other side to come over and you don't do that by screaming at them and telling them they're an ethical.

[00:28:50] The interviewer asked why Texas in California are on the same side in the movie and he was talking about how so the conversation wouldn't just be about the current political divide.

[00:29:00] And I just happened to have read an article that said quote some recent polls suggest that Americans are united in their beliefs in the core values of democracy.

[00:29:10] However a study from Carnegie Endowment goes beyond that quote even though Americans are not as ideologically polarized as they believe themselves to be they're emotionally polarized.

[00:29:21] In other words they do not like members of the other party.

[00:29:25] So Garland was saying in the movie Texas in California decided their political positions were less important than this fascist president and coming together and wish to him as a rational thing to do.

[00:29:35] And Favreau the interviewer brought up having Liz Cheney speak rationally against Trump even though she's on the other side you know which Garland says he's delighted about.

[00:29:46] And he also talked about how extreme extremism and populist politics and division don't only become bad and problematic at the moment people start shooting at each other.

[00:29:58] It's problematic way before that point that like right division right now can cause problems not to be fixed.

[00:30:05] Our government can be seized up.

[00:30:07] He says there's a lack of limiting forces on polarization.

[00:30:11] So I think personally even if one side is more right than the other or one side's right and the other is wrong that would everyone shuts down and digs their heels in and gives up trying to connect on our shared humanity.

[00:30:24] And instead we close our hearts and stew in our anger and hatred and this kind of thing is inevitable that we see in this movie.

[00:30:30] That's the point of it.

[00:30:31] There's absolutely things we're fighting for.

[00:30:33] But I just think the way to do it is not to demonize each other and to connect with the rational people on the other side before it's too late.

[00:30:41] So that's sort of what I got out of it.

[00:30:43] That's why I came to love this movie when I really thought about it and I was glad that it wasn't about these two established sides against each other but it was more just like don't let this happen you know.

[00:30:53] Well the funny thing about it too when this movie initially came out.

[00:31:01] It got flooded with a lot of hate from the extremists you know on YouTube on Tiktok there was a lot of slamming of the movie because they felt that Alex Garland focus too much they said that it was to the irony is that they focused they said that it focused too much on it.

[00:31:18] It was definitely a slam on Donald Trump and on the right.

[00:31:22] And I have had enough kind of thought I mean obviously Nick Offerman's character as a three time president got rid of the FBI you know I mean obviously there are some years.

[00:31:38] Air strikes on his own citizens.

[00:31:39] Yeah you know it's the extremists seemingly have projected themselves like right there.

[00:31:48] Right.

[00:31:49] So it's a slam on me.

[00:31:50] And there's the scene with the guy Jesse Plemmons who plays Todd on Ricky Batt who's clearly a racist nationalist.

[00:32:00] Yep.

[00:32:01] You know and that's typically you would think of that as extreme right.

[00:32:05] Right.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] But I think I think that scene in and of itself combined with some of the other scenes I've seen especially in rural America.

[00:32:15] You know I don't think I mean I think one of the things that transfixed me about this movie is that the extremists wherever you go are probably going to have situations very similar they might not be mass body mass graves but who knows what kind of extremism is happening as you're traveling across.

[00:32:37] They're very you know I mean the one thing I travel a lot you know heading from down the east coast from the north to the south and you know if I told you all the different communities that I see and how different they would interact in a war like this.

[00:32:52] I think it's interesting that the extreme kind of slammed this movie well.

[00:32:58] More thoughtful people are looking at this movie as maybe a thought process.

[00:33:07] How do we stop from getting to a point where we're seeing all the things we see you know growing up in Lebanon and Baruch in the middle in the Middle East happening in Ukraine right now happening in Gaza happening in Israel.

[00:33:18] All these things that we see happening there in this movie are happening here how do we stop that happening here and I want to make it clear I just said that typically that kind of nationalist racist is seen as extreme right and the point is that most people on the right are horrified by that.

[00:33:37] And I understand that you know anybody most people right or left who saw that scene would think what a fucking evil guy that is and if you go talk about the extreme left that's communism it's also authoritarian.

[00:33:54] I don't know my politics as well as I should but it can be yeah that's one form of it so anyway.

[00:34:00] So I would offer a counterpoint to this and to Alex Garland and look we're into this so we might as well.

[00:34:09] Yeah go for it as well you know dive in on the topic but so I mean I appreciate what he said there and I didn't hear that particular review but I've read other interviews with him where he said yeah similar and I think you know we all appreciate that message.

[00:34:24] Don't let division get too divided too dangerous.

[00:34:31] Where I took issue with the movie and with Alex Garland and look I think he has a different perspective.

[00:34:40] Obviously he's thought a lot about America worked here spent a lot of time here but he is not American.

[00:34:46] And the English and or British and American political systems are fundamentally different.

[00:34:55] They're different in structure and function.

[00:34:58] And therefore I think in effect and and in the right the methods maybe to approach those two things may be similar but they are not the same.

[00:35:08] And the issue I sort of took out of the movie although appreciating that underlying message is that the actual situation in the United States right now is very asymmetrical.

[00:35:22] Most of the extremism is in we have a two political party system that is different than Britain.

[00:35:29] I mean I think he would agree with you.

[00:35:33] Yes and the to me the extremism is all in that's been brought into the mainstream is all in one party so when you start talking about center left and center right in the actual party that is half the political system in the United States on the right there is no center.

[00:35:51] That doesn't mean there aren't any American people who still believe in center right.

[00:35:57] But they have lost all power in that party that party has become completely and wholly controlled by its extreme.

[00:36:06] And I would guess there are a lot of people who aren't all that political who don't consciously or don't think about enough to realize you know that's not me anymore like they need a side.

[00:36:20] And they don't agree with the left and they've typically been on the right so they just go that way.

[00:36:26] But I think if we did get past this kind of tribal team based thinking and just connected as human beings that we would realize that we have more in common with each other than we do with that extreme you know.

[00:36:40] Yeah but I think that's easy for him to say.

[00:36:43] That's what I say too.

[00:36:44] Yeah but I think that's very difficult in the real world when I agree.

[00:36:53] The point of views in my opinion have become quite extreme and in the context of an actual organized attempt to overthrow the government and overthrow the results of the election which is a unique occurrence in our history even in the Civil War that did not happen.

[00:37:10] They didn't try to depose the president of the United States they tried to secede.

[00:37:16] So I think having lived through that and as you said maybe start a writing the movie before that happened.

[00:37:23] I found the film a little both sides ish for my taste and I excuse it in the sense as I say he wanted to talk about photojournalists he wanted to put across this message of don't let things get that far and agree with all those things but I think that's where he kind of left actual American reality because I think the reality is too asymmetrical for that message.

[00:37:49] I think yeah I kind of felt that way too but I think if you listen to him in the interviews he seems pretty anti-Trump very anti-Trump.

[00:38:04] He says he's crazy he's authoritarian tendencies and I think the message is to just try to ignore that and connect with each other.

[00:38:17] I know it's hard and I'm separating what his personal political views may be from what I saw in the film.

[00:38:24] But I think he made a very conscious effort in the film to make it hard to tell who was who and sort of you know mix it all together and combine California and Texas and I get why he did that and probably made for a better movie a movie that function better but I had a dividing line for myself which was okay we've kind of stopped on that.

[00:38:46] I'm not talking about current reality here because I think the actual reality is not just the generic polarization of both sides it's one side that has become very extreme.

[00:38:57] Yeah but I mean I think if he would have made a movie about okay the right is becoming extreme and it's causing this problem then A as he says in interviews he wants this to be broad so it can apply to countries around the world.

[00:39:24] It just happens to be about the United States but the message applies everywhere so that wouldn't help and B it wouldn't function in the way that it's functioning for me which is a unifying message versus a further polarizing message you know.

[00:39:42] Yeah I agree and I'm not arguing hey Mr Garland you should have made your movie differently and I thought it was a really good film the way he made it.

[00:39:51] I'm just saying there was a point at which for me at least okay this is stop being a future telling of American history it's a little disconnected from like alternate reality movie.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:07] It's funny it's when we mentioned dystopian I you know it's one of those things if you push this movie ahead 50 years.

[00:40:16] It becomes more believable in the respect that you're talking about David I was thinking about that quite a bit the fact that he set this basically you know maybe next month.

[00:40:27] Makes makes that point very hard and I you know every time you know Jason there's a conversation.

[00:40:35] About the center interests sort of being the adults in the room and having those conversations that you can listen to back and forth.

[00:40:44] Of course the counter to that you know from my you know from my perspective maybe from all three of our perspectives is.

[00:40:50] You know we sit here and we watch the extremists sort of galvanize.

[00:40:55] The media so you know that the counter balance of that in a movie like this is maybe the left has to get as extreme as the right and what he's saying is exactly the opposite that's not going to bring people together that's going to push people apart and I think.

[00:41:13] A complaint that I've seen in the movie the unbaked part of this movie is sort of connected to what what David was saying is so what do we do we see it through the perspective of these three.

[00:41:25] Well for journalists you know through through Lee and Jesse and Joel and.

[00:41:32] I can't remember his name.

[00:41:34] Sammy.

[00:41:35] Yeah and you know they are looking through this very objective lens and I think his goal is for us to perhaps see things more objectively and.

[00:41:47] I just the unbaked part of this movie is is okay I see it I see what you're saying but that's again to David's point that's not their how.

[00:41:57] But how when one side is so pulled and kind of towing along with it everybody else that's quote unquote right even though I would agree with with with Alex Garland that Trump is less right and more Trump.

[00:42:12] See I just think okay so it's not as simple as this linear like political spectrum of left and right and your views are somewhere along that line I think it's also about our approach or do we have an extreme approach or do we have.

[00:42:27] An approach that's rational and open to compromise and talking to people who we don't necessarily agree with or are we digging our heels in and saying we're right and if you don't agree you're a fucking asshole you know that's what more what it's about for me that I don't want I and I think there are plenty of people in both parties who get like that.

[00:42:54] So.

[00:42:56] Told you guys was gonna get political we're gonna get some reviews on this one I know it but that's fine.

[00:43:01] Hey we had to get into that.

[00:43:03] That's right yeah we're going there so and we can keep talking more about if we want but Jim it's your turn.

[00:43:09] Well I this kind of does feed into the expectations versus reality I think my expectation my fear of this movie when I saw I don't like watching trailers so I accidentally saw this trailer.

[00:43:22] I don't remember even where it might have been the Super Bowl and my my first thought heading into this movie was man I am did Alex Garland make a movie that's going to be some sort of like playbook for her.

[00:43:38] I know I do worry about that when you see images of something I kind of worried about it I remember.

[00:43:45] Well maybe I was too young but it reminded me of the day after back in the 80s that was about your war.

[00:43:52] Yeah yeah yeah yes I've heard I've actually heard someone make that comparison and so that was my expectation going into this movie.

[00:44:02] I know a lot of people had expectations this is this was gonna be just an anti Trump movie or an anti right movie.

[00:44:07] A lot of people had expectations this was going to just be a war movie.

[00:44:11] I don't know that anybody walked into this movie expecting it to be you know a movie about photo journalists I mean not even video journalists you know I.

[00:44:20] So my expectations when I went into this movie I saw it twice the first time I saw it there was a bit of awe to it all the things that we've talked about I sort of had like dancing around it.

[00:44:37] I thought it was kind of like a dance in my head and it kind of it kind of wasn't any of that to me and we're watching this movie.

[00:44:44] In a sense the way that as a five or six year old I remember you know going into the library at my school and pulling out a Civil War book and you know Matthew Brady.

[00:44:57] I don't know if you guys are familiar with his work but he was the photographer during the Civil War that took all the photographs of all the dead Americans.

[00:45:04] So if you've ever seen a Civil War photograph it was probably from him and so I grew up with this kind of very that was my first like introduction into war as a five or six year old why they had that book.

[00:45:16] My elementary school I'll never know but I guess things were different back then.

[00:45:20] So it's funny because when I went when I saw this for the first time those Jason those little snapshots that you were talking about every time I saw that snapshot it immediately took me back to where I was five or six years old.

[00:45:32] Seeing those moments where we see this very kind of visceral death of an Americans in front of us and I was not expecting that I was not expecting that at all I was expecting this sort of almost this like maybe maybe propaganda is not the right word but I didn't expect to be invested with these characters.

[00:45:55] I didn't expect to be invested with where they were going.

[00:45:59] I didn't expect the fear that I had the weight that I had that David talked about earlier about the weight of the deaths.

[00:46:07] I just feared that this was going to be exactly what I think you maybe wanted to see like not propaganda or anything like that but that that polarizing.

[00:46:17] Exploitative.

[00:46:18] Yes.

[00:46:20] And I was I you know we my son loved this movie and we talked about it nonstop for a week and then went and saw it again very different reaction the weight of kind of what was going to happen was taken away so I was able to kind of just watch which was was kind of fun to do.

[00:46:36] But the reality of the movie was very different from what I think everybody expected if you go on to YouTube right now and you type in Civil War movie just watch like the first 10 videos that you see just read the titles.

[00:46:50] They're all over the place.

[00:46:52] The right hates it because since I Trump the left doesn't quite get it because it didn't go hard enough.

[00:46:56] And I just sat there thinking listen to these conversations and I don't know if Alex Scott you know Alex Gordon Garland's talking about you know finding a way to communicate.

[00:47:07] I don't know if he meant.

[00:47:09] I mean the conversations that I've heard are actually pretty incredible.

[00:47:14] I don't know that they're going to go anywhere but the reality of this movie is very different from I think what everybody expected.

[00:47:21] Yeah well look at the way he's got the three of us talking about it.

[00:47:25] On a podcast no less.

[00:47:27] So I think if what he wanted to do was touch off conversation it worked.

[00:47:31] Yeah and it was just I mean it's disturbing but it was a good movie.

[00:47:36] It was well-paced.

[00:47:38] It had great characters.

[00:47:40] It had a good story you know people are on a quest they want to interview the president before he gets overthrown.

[00:47:45] That's why it felt kind of it felt like last of us not only because we're seeing all these scenes of America it just destroyed.

[00:47:54] But also because there's a Joel in this movie and it's not the character actually named Joel it's Lee who is the mentor and she's reluctant to be.

[00:48:06] Wait is that her name Lee.

[00:48:08] Yeah with Jesse.

[00:48:09] Jesse is Ellie and Lee doesn't resents having to watch over Jesse at first but then comes to feel connected with her and then actually is more in danger because the vulnerability that that brings about which is seems you know it just very much had some last of us vibes.

[00:48:29] So I guess my point in saying all this is it worked even aside from this political discussion it was a good movie I thought.

[00:48:37] Oh 100 percent.

[00:48:40] So I want to talk a little bit about what I think might happen if there really were a civil war in the US and I think we've covered the political aspect of it so I don't mean that way I just mean in practical terms what might happen and what might it mean.

[00:48:58] So and I thought to Jim about the day after and Karen I talked about that as one of the things that came to mind when we watched this because that was really impactful when we were kids.

[00:49:10] Real cultural phenomenon made scared the shit out of us.

[00:49:14] Me too.

[00:49:15] But so you know a little internet research course I'm an expert on this.

[00:49:21] No I'm not an expert at all but I believe there's only nine countries in the world who are nuclear powers of nuclear weapons.

[00:49:31] Russia former Soviet Union and the United States have way more than anyone else the estimates I've read or that Russia actually had even has a few more nukes then then we do.

[00:49:44] So that was my first question sort of imagining an actual civil war in the United States in the modern day.

[00:49:53] Who would get a hold of the nukes would they eventually inevitably be used.

[00:49:59] They were not in this story at least as far as we can tell.

[00:50:04] So that's that's one question.

[00:50:07] He didn't get specifically into this but I think Civil War in an underlying way posits a split in the military different aspects of the military fighting each other.

[00:50:21] So right there's the US branches of the service but then a lot of the strength of the military actually is lodged in state reserves and you know National Guard people are called up in times of war.

[00:50:36] So I think that might have been a plausible split between say federal troops and Washington and California based maybe Army units but also National Guard or reserves it's not quite clear.

[00:50:49] In my opinion the only way you could have us real civil war in the United States would be with a split in the military.

[00:50:58] Because that's all the power.

[00:51:00] Our military is too strong.

[00:51:02] I mean I know there's a lot of people running around with guns but I don't think civilians could actually stand up to our United military.

[00:51:11] So that's the way I read the movie which was that it was a military split.

[00:51:20] Even though that's people's rationale for having guns so that they can stand up to the military.

[00:51:27] It is but in my opinion that is not a realistic view.

[00:51:33] But again it's open to opinion and I'm not a technical expert.

[00:51:37] I would think not but I don't know.

[00:51:40] But we have a pretty powerful arsenal of weapons that go beyond any guns that individuals or small groups are going to have.

[00:51:50] Yeah I mean the military infrastructure that's there.

[00:51:55] I mean you're talking about the Navy you're talking about tank battalions you're talking about helicopter battalions and of course the Air Force.

[00:52:06] If there was a unit it wouldn't even have to be a unified military front.

[00:52:10] It could be as they depicted in this movie unified military fronts like several different units.

[00:52:17] Right.

[00:52:19] So yeah so local like rural militias.

[00:52:25] Yeah.

[00:52:26] And it seems like in these types of situations from what little I know there's generals who are respected that take command of certain factions in the military.

[00:52:38] Right and I mean it is chilling it's terrifying to think about when you think about the might of the United States military that literally could destroy the entire world.

[00:52:48] Some sort of split in the chain of command or fighting each other on our territory is just absolutely terrifying.

[00:52:57] And I think really ultimately the movie is about war itself which I believe a lot of Americans do not viscerally understand.

[00:53:05] Like even in our lifetimes the country has fought a lot of wars but they are elsewhere.

[00:53:12] We get the privilege of not fighting wars on our territory.

[00:53:18] And I remember my dad pointing this out to me when I was a kid that there was a fundamental difference in the United States from Europe which is that most of our country since American culture like the culture that came over from Europe and became this country from maybe the 1600s on

[00:53:37] has never been destroyed in a war the way most countries in the world have.

[00:53:44] Now the south is different in that way.

[00:53:47] Yeah south was essentially destroyed in the civil war and that probably is part of the reason we carry some psychologically psychological splits regionally.

[00:53:58] But I think most Americans have the luxury of not thinking about what war is really like and I think that was a lot of the message of this movie.

[00:54:09] Hey people this is what it would really be like to have a war here.

[00:54:12] And the world becoming more and more unstable it feels like.

[00:54:18] And our politics of division and the government not working and just democracy in trouble around the world and that's just what made scenes of even just the power going out at the hotel in the beginning of this.

[00:54:37] You know it remind me when I was in India the power would go out a few times a day and they were all just used to it because they just didn't have as advanced robust infrastructure as we do here.

[00:54:47] But in this movie it was just a disintegration of watching just the chaos and disrepair and the sketchiness of everybody that you run into and it made me think of Ukraine you know or other places that where this kind of stuff is happening it was chilling and disturbing and it was probably a good thing.

[00:55:06] Hopefully to put this in front of people and make you see look something like this could happen here we need to do something but I hope it doesn't function the other way that we were talking about earlier where it's like oh now it'll be easier to get to because we've we've imagined it.

[00:55:20] Yeah I mean Ukraine's a good example.

[00:55:22] I mean Ukraine's a modern country with a pretty modern economy and an educated population and quite a cultural history and you know now look at what that country looks like after a few years of this somewhere you do not want to go.

[00:55:38] Yeah so sad.

[00:55:42] But it is scary. It is scary. I mean I think probably all of us and when I say all of us the three of us but I'm sure whoever's listening to this with whichever regard or whichever side you're on in any political debate there's no way we haven't thought about it.

[00:56:03] And I mean I don't I think what Alex Garland was trying to show us is that he put this a few months ahead just to show that it could happen quickly and there was nothing that I saw in this movie that I haven't seen alluded to starting maybe January 6th and before so so this is something I think that is certainly something we have to take into account.

[00:56:35] And as being in our forefront it does happen in other places and if it if if democracy were to go away it could certainly happen very easily here especially with all that military infrastructure.

[00:56:49] And just like people who went to the capital on January 6th I think a lot of them I don't know this for a fact but my suspicion is people are just wrapped up in the moment and they're like fight for freedom or whatever they're there for you know.

[00:57:05] And and they a lot of them didn't think about the consequences or even that there would be any consequences and then they ended up in jail a lot of them.

[00:57:15] And my point in bringing that up is just it's maybe it's good to show the consequences of things like this like if you really just feel like you want to have violence and fighting then you're going to it's going to destroy the country.

[00:57:35] And we're going to be left with something like this and I don't think anybody I don't think most people want that.

[00:57:44] All right. I had a quick one so it's factions.

[00:57:49] It's called Civil War and to me that always makes me think of two sides but it's more than two sides.

[00:57:56] It was it was a few it was the Western forces of Texas and California that took the president down and it felt like they were the biggest strongest faction and they succeeded.

[00:58:08] But the president I think it was a president said in voiceover that the Florida Alliance has failed and getting the Carolinas to join and there's a graphic on the Civil War Wikipedia page that shows the US map with the factions all laid out.

[00:58:25] And I think it's accurate. It shows Texas and California as Western forces. The Florida Alliance is Florida Georgia Alabama Mississippi Louisiana Oklahoma Arkansas Tennessee and the Carolinas so down in the south.

[00:58:40] So basically the Southeast Conference for you football fans out there.

[00:58:44] There's the New People's Army which I think I remember hearing that phrase but I'd have to watch it again. Maybe the president mentioned something about it but that was in the northwest Washington Oregon Idaho Montana Utah Wyoming Minnesota and the Dakotas.

[00:59:01] And then the only other faction was the loyal estates.

[00:59:05] Still loyal to quote unquote United States or the president I guess and that's just the rest Alaska Hawaii Nevada.

[00:59:12] I won't name them all but Massachusetts Connecticut New York New Jersey Delaware a whole bunch of states.

[00:59:19] I thought that was interesting if this was any other movie we'd be like oh they're going to flesh this out in comic books and have a series on Disney Plus or something.

[00:59:30] But I'm I'm hope they don't do any of that or have a sequel or anything.

[00:59:35] But it was an interesting way of dividing it up he put a lot of thought into it.

[00:59:39] Yeah.

[00:59:40] When you're for the first three the first three mentioned are Texas California and the Florida Alliance.

[00:59:47] Immediately your brain starts you know moving in certain directions and I just I could I can't quite figure out the Florida line like are these factions working against each other.

[00:59:58] They working with each other very purposefully left out alone and the Jesse Plemons scene which I'm sure we're going to talk to and full like at some point but he is a great person.

[01:00:10] He has those moments where he's asking each member where they're from in Missouri and Colorado were.

[01:00:18] Yeah that's America kind of fits in with the loyalist states there was a scene between Jesse and Lee where they were talking about their families both pretending that nothing was going on and they were both you know in Missouri and Colorado.

[01:00:35] And then of course we have that one scene in that town where people just walking along the street.

[01:00:43] There's stores that are open of course snipers on the top but we have I try I've been trying to figure this mess out and I just can't which I actually love but yeah I what do you guys think was the point of that.

[01:00:58] Seen.

[01:01:00] The he's trying to ignore it and there's the shop and but there's snipers on the roof.

[01:01:06] I think that's maybe those people that you were talking about Jason that you know don't watch any of the cable news networks and.

[01:01:17] Go about their life and don't you know they vote how they voted how their family voted for you know generations and maybe just turn off the TV instead of turning it on.

[01:01:31] The movie was being critical of them are just presenting here's another side of this whole experience without judgments kind of.

[01:01:40] I mean I mean I took it as critical but that probably was putting my own bringing my own spin to it but yeah I interpreted it the same as you Jim like those are the people who are like I'm not into politics none of this affects me.

[01:01:55] We know it actually really does affect them and actually they're kind of full of it anyway because they have snipers guarding their town.

[01:02:05] Yeah but so I almost in one moment I was like this is a metaphor for all of our existence we all have snipers guarding us and safety and security and illusion.

[01:02:16] But but on that podcast Pod Save America Alex Garland he didn't he didn't make it totally clear to me but he did address it he said something like civil work and sometimes not be about a battle of ideology but just generalized disintegration and.

[01:02:34] And factionalization and so I guess he's just trying to say that some people just are caught up in it and they don't have a feel like they have.

[01:02:44] Any position that they need to guard or something and he said some people go on with normal life as long as they can.

[01:02:51] So I don't know it was an interesting scene my favorite part of it which kind of gets into another aspect of the movie though was when she Jesse was taking Lee's picture and kind of tricked her into showing some genuine emotion that was so cute.

[01:03:07] You know you're pretty when you smile.

[01:03:09] Yeah the dress scene yeah.

[01:03:11] Yeah that was cute but anyway Jim it's your turn.

[01:03:14] Yeah I want to talk about the characters a bit we've been you know big picture kind of talking about the film and we had four main characters all kind of in different places.

[01:03:25] We had Lee who Kirsten Dunn's who was the main character the grizzled photojournalist who I guess made her name doing some European like war war shots and.

[01:03:41] The Antifa massacre.

[01:03:43] Antifa massacre just real quick Antifa massacre was does that mean that Antifa was massacred or did Antifa massacre.

[01:03:54] It's one of those I would say again it's another one of those three point we don't know for sure.

[01:04:03] So and then of course Kaylee hold up let's talk about each one I just want to for her like Kirsten Dunn's I have always felt is.

[01:04:13] Fine but I personally find her a little annoying.

[01:04:18] Okay I know not everyone feels that way probably most people love her I thought she's okay but in this I loved her I thought she was so good so good.

[01:04:27] I thought I mean she was first of all I had no idea she was married to Jesse Plemons for one thing but.

[01:04:35] I think they might have met on Fargo they were on Fargo together.

[01:04:37] Yes yep they I mean just absolutely thank God they were married because I'm glad glad that he was in this film but.

[01:04:44] Yeah well let's address that so yeah so the actor who was supposed to play the part of this guy who was just shooting people because they weren't quote unquote real Americans that's Jesse Plemons and he the original actor that was supposed to do that role had to drop out for some reason and Kirsten Dunn said well my husband's here and so he got to.

[01:05:05] Honey what do you do for the next he's gonna play psychos yeah hey he's too good at play I I half expected him to wave like Todd did but.

[01:05:16] It's the first thing I saw him in was in Friday night lights and he was just this good old down home yeah good hearted boy it's funny you say that though I didn't realize that he wasn't here originally slated for that character because both Karen and I were kind of like oh here's Jesse Plemons another psycho.

[01:05:32] They all they ever heard to do.

[01:05:37] So we had lead the main character who is the grizzled veteran who.

[01:05:42] Understands how it goes and then you had Jesse who was the younger journalist just trying to get in had had the old school film camera whereas as Lee did and she had the digital was kind of an interesting juxtapit position there and I really kind of want to focus on that I think.

[01:06:01] I don't really get Joel's character at all he was the he's the the journalist that doesn't really do any journalism until literally the last scene.

[01:06:10] I think he's just a reporter.

[01:06:12] Yeah yeah but he just.

[01:06:14] He didn't do much did he he didn't do much reporting and then of course he was like trying to figure out what questions to ask the whole time and ended up saying can I get a quote.

[01:06:26] And then the grizzled veteran played.

[01:06:30] Sammy Sammy.

[01:06:32] Stephen McKinley Henderson who was who was probably the one rooted character who just sort of didn't want them to go understood where this was going to go and ultimately pays the price of that but the real the real basis of this movie was kind of the juxtaposition of Lee and Jesse and how throughout this movie.

[01:06:51] In a recent still slang podcast Sam was was guest hosting talking about PTSD and we get to see Kirsten Dunst who has been an objective photojournalist for her whole life.

[01:07:09] Kind of walk into a situation where you can slowly see PTSD start to erode her and then Sammy gets killed and we'll talk about that scene again but and it throws it immediately kind of shifts her from being that rigid.

[01:07:27] Objectives photojournalists to not being able to handle the situation by the end of the movie and you get we get to see Jesse take the complete opposite course where she starts off very timid.

[01:07:39] And Lee sort of helps her along kind of the padawan.

[01:07:43] She's pulling the padawan along and then when when sit spoilers when Sammy dies they sort of flip and we get to see them flip and I thought.

[01:07:53] You think that's what did it I was wondering because we saw Lee lose her shit at the end on the March to the White House and early on Lee had mentioned something about to Jesse.

[01:08:06] I'll remember that when you lose your shit or get blown up or get shot and Jesse said if I got shot would you photograph it at least what do you think and then Lee ends up the one losing her shit and Jesse and gets shot and Jesse photographs it the opposite.

[01:08:22] So it was kind of cool but I noticed when the night before they started marching to the White House Jesse told Lee.

[01:08:34] I have never been so scared these last few days or whatever but I've also never felt so alive and leave seemed to feel look very disturbed at that idea and I felt like that was the turning point where she started to lose it but I don't know maybe it was before I don't really understand exactly why.

[01:08:52] I thought maybe it was just because she had spent all this time armoring herself up and feeling distance from things but now that she has this sort of daughter figure there with her it opened her up made her feel more connected to her heart but also vulnerable and worried about someone else then made it so she could handle it something like that.

[01:09:12] Well I do I felt Sammy was the key to it because.

[01:09:17] Prior to that moment you know I mean we have that moment where he passes away she Jesse's in the car she kind of loses it and Lee's trying to hold it together.

[01:09:26] When and then we get that whole really weird scene when they're with the Western forces and we see that Sammy is dead and they're going to put him in the coffin and Joel's off on the side screaming and there was that whole you know kind of build up to going going there and they do have that moment where they're talking.

[01:09:44] That you mentioned and they do sort of I don't know I guess maybe maybe the problem is all related maybe yeah but then all of a sudden we're at the White House and Jesse's like super photojournalist and Lee's struggling with it and that was that it happened that part to me happened way too quickly and I did struggle a little bit with that.

[01:10:08] But but I did like those two characters I thought Kirsten Dunst was absolutely fantastic I thought Stephen McKinley Henderson was absolutely fantastic and that as well and I'm glad the girl to finding Kaylee whatever yeah Kaylee Spani yeah she she she's been a lot of really interesting thing she was in Priscilla but I haven't seen that movie but I heard it was pretty good but.

[01:10:30] I thought this movie was cast very well I including all of the the rogue people that we saw kind of in this kind of road movie of them heading from from DC around in this big like horseshoe to get not DC from New York City in this round horseshoe to get back to.

[01:10:50] DC so and I did I did think it was also interesting that they when they were having that moment where we're Sammy passed away they were they were in Charlottesville.

[01:11:02] Hmm and I'll just leave that there.

[01:11:04] So I think Alex Garland is one of these writer directors that likes to work with same actors a lot he has actors he trusts we mentioned four of them were in.

[01:11:16] Devs but I agree with you they were all very well cast and and really good in this film it's kind of like Benny often Weiss started watching three body problem and it's like oh there's six people from Game of Thrones and.

[01:11:30] Yeah I liked Sammy's interactions with Joel the whole time where they were talking about like questions to ask the president and about you know told him to ask about just disbanding the FBI and the.

[01:11:49] Committing air strikes against his own citizens and Joel says now you're talking and Sammy goes just be sure you get the words out before the piano wire gets too tight just that.

[01:11:59] There was some lightness in the movie you know and I liked just talking characters I thought Jesse Kayley Spani was great and her relationship with Joel was really interesting because.

[01:12:11] You see she went to that hotel hoping to meet Lee and connect and hook you know be a part of her group and Lee kind of brushes her off and she looks disappointed in the next day she's in the car.

[01:12:24] And what is she doing here and then you know Joel says oh he came she came up to me and I said she could come and then later when the two other reporters are coming along the side of them in the car.

[01:12:37] And Lee says hey Tony did Joel tell you where we were going back in New York and he goes I don't know he was pretty drunk when he was hitting on that girl in the back seat.

[01:12:47] So suddenly you realize how that happened that they're he was actually hitting on her and it made another scene make sense to me where they're in that shop.

[01:12:55] Yes.

[01:12:56] And he she's like Jesse's telling Lee how she looks cute in her dress or whatever and then Joel or maybe it's the hat and Joel is like how do I look and she's like man not as good.

[01:13:09] And I felt like that was a response to how they met you know like she's just really trying to keep keep those boundaries up.

[01:13:16] But as far as that what that says about Joel you might think oh he's a sleaze bag but no I don't feel that way at all.

[01:13:23] I think it's interesting that he seems to want to do this just for the adrenaline rush.

[01:13:27] She's like I got to get into the action and also that he's hitting on this girl drunk but he also clearly from my point of view just has a good heart you know he still was seeming to try to maybe hook up with her when he was like in the car with her saying I could stay with you tonight and she's all no and then he seemed to drop.

[01:13:45] And go OK but if you get freaked out just wake me up at nobody likes to be alone and it seemed like a genuine moment that she was thankful for so I think he's a good.

[01:13:54] And he just got out of the car and just slept it you know he was sound asleep at the base of the car so yeah yeah.

[01:14:01] And Dick Offerman was good a good pick for the president even though he wasn't in it that much.

[01:14:06] And one other one when they enter this tent city shelter place the girl who tells them where to park and that there's no tents available for them is Alexa Montsour who played hope in walking dead world beyond.

[01:14:20] It's good cool to see her.

[01:14:22] That was a cool scene too that that that refugee scene was an interesting again juxtaposition of joy and a refugee camp as opposed to the rest of the movie.

[01:14:33] It was just a very interesting scene.

[01:14:35] I love that the movie had all different kinds of emotions not just despair and horror.

[01:14:41] Yeah yeah.

[01:14:43] All right David your turn.

[01:14:45] Just to follow on the main characters in the portrayal of the war journalists which I thought was fascinating subject and perceptively handled.

[01:14:58] I thought it showed that not only they're jaded especially the older journalists but I think also addicted to what they were doing in the adrenaline and produces sort of the juice of it.

[01:15:13] You know they knew the dangers of it maybe the meaninglessness of it they talked about a little bit but they don't really have any power to resist.

[01:15:24] You know that they're going to end up going.

[01:15:26] And do you think Jesse's going down that path too.

[01:15:29] Well I was going to say I think the because you know everything in this movie I think is a symbol in some way and what they represented in my opinion is that Lee and Sammy are sort of the essentially a stand in for the traditional media.

[01:15:51] The traditional journalistic practices I'll say that probably still mean something to people our age.

[01:15:58] And I think the two younger people in the car represented for lack of a better term new media.

[01:16:07] Other platforms that somebody who grew up in the age of instant communication and of social media which is quite different than the idea.

[01:16:19] That you have to be qualified in a certain way and follow certain principles and have three sources for a story and it's really more about what is the most sensational shot or quote I can get and how quickly can I get that.

[01:16:37] And how widely out to the world without all these other worries and standards.

[01:16:44] And I think we see that at the end of the movie where Jesse essentially gets her hero killed quote hero and yes.

[01:16:51] You know I mean reckless behavior.

[01:16:55] And for a moment you sort of think oh she's going to have this epiphany and this emotional reaction and she's going to take sort of the psychological place of the older woman but she doesn't really do that.

[01:17:08] I mean yes she does go to get the shot which probably the older photojournalist may have done too.

[01:17:15] But you kind of get the impression she forgot gets about her 30 seconds after she's dead.

[01:17:20] And it really was Joel too.

[01:17:23] Yeah and it really for them was all about getting themselves in the position to capture that big moment.

[01:17:31] And even this person you think they're close to they look up to whatever really does not matter to them at all in that moment.

[01:17:39] And I thought that was a story about where media has gone and where culture has gone.

[01:17:44] That's a really interesting read.

[01:17:46] I resist wanting to go there because it's so cold but you could be right.

[01:17:52] I also think about how when Joel learned that the forces were marching on the president tonight and he thought that meant they weren't going to get to do their interview.

[01:18:05] He said well that means Sammy didn't even die for anything good which that sounds shallow in one sense but also makes me think maybe they were like well we worked really hard to get them out of this.

[01:18:21] And we had to get here and Lee just died.

[01:18:24] Let's not have it be for nothing kind of thing.

[01:18:27] Right but what is the end game like that okay they got the photograph or whatever does that make it okay that he died.

[01:18:35] I mean that's the same question is does any of this matter like what does what we're doing is it worthwhile to the world you know right.

[01:18:46] Don't you think.

[01:18:48] Well I think that's always part of a war story.

[01:18:51] War always devolves into in a sense meaninglessness where the fighting just becomes an end in itself and meaning recedes.

[01:18:59] I mean that was the meaning of catch 22 and many war allegories.

[01:19:05] I think when she took the picture of the president I was just like that's her you know what's going to make other photojournalists see her as this legend.

[01:19:16] Yeah for sure she did replace her in that role but I think she stopped caring about her the moment she died and to my mind she never really cared about much about her at all.

[01:19:31] I think the whole hero story was sort of a means to an end.

[01:19:35] I mean she may have felt it I think she looked up to her as an accomplished veteran but I think getting close to her was more a means to an end for Jesse than it was a real emotional time.

[01:19:46] For me I don't necessarily see any evidence of that for sure but also not evidence against it but I do for sure and maybe if I thought about more watching again I would see more of it.

[01:19:59] But one thing I definitely agree with you on is she got her killed she was reckless and jumped out into the hallway and I was pretty especially second watch I was like oh wait a minute.

[01:20:09] Yeah that's fucked up.

[01:20:12] If you watch her in those scenes like she doesn't care about anyone else around her she's running through ahead she was ahead of the soldiers to begin with and there's that one moment before she takes the picture where you see something

[01:20:27] and then she pulls the camera up she takes the shot Joel picks her up they go into the Oval Office they get their picture and you know the second time we saw it my son and I and my daughter we sat and we watched that last

[01:20:41] if you watch the credits you get to see the last picture sort of expose and it's a picture they're not in the picture it's just the soldiers smiling over the president and you know as I sit here and listen to you guys like.

[01:20:54] Jesse probably took that picture.

[01:20:55] Yes but then I'm sitting there thinking you know we just watched quite literally the end of democracy in the movie the president instead.

[01:21:04] And where did that get them.

[01:21:08] I guess I mean I don't know what it seems like who knows what the political situation would be like after that would they be able to reinstate some form of democracy probably not I don't know but.

[01:21:21] The picture was disturbing you don't like to see a bunch of people smiling after they just killed someone.

[01:21:28] I guess he was a bad guy so it makes sense well and I mean the obvious connection.

[01:21:34] Saddam Hussein the Saddam Hussein I mean yeah yeah it's just disturbing even if it is warranted you know it doesn't I didn't feel happy seeing it.

[01:21:47] No no no no the communications director gets shot and they get that picture and.

[01:21:55] The visual of that picture looked very similar to some some very famous shots taken in Vietnam it was just set the last 20 minutes of that movie again to connect it to saving private Ryan which was a real depiction of D day the first 40 minutes of that reminded me so much of the last.

[01:22:14] Like 15 minutes of this movie just in pure shock and all yeah I almost felt like okay this is just feeling like a war movie now it's very well done you know where you're where they're getting to the White House right in there just blasts and people blowing up and everything and yelling.

[01:22:33] And then I'm like okay I've had enough of this.

[01:22:37] But it's probably good to feel that.

[01:22:41] That that shot to the Lincoln Memorial was I it's just permanently imprinted in my head that an American military person would destroy such an iconic.

[01:22:54] I it just and then you stop and you think you know how close Gettysburg is to Washington DC these little things that that our country has kind of played with.

[01:23:04] I don't know I don't know the last it was just hard that yeah there's also a little willing suspension of disbelief in the last scenes of that movie.

[01:23:15] Yeah I didn't feel like the president would probably still be there in the White House being guarded by like three people.

[01:23:21] But was he in the Oval Office.

[01:23:24] He wanted those iconic images so yeah yeah it was a great I mean I need a quote please don't let them kill me that'll do.

[01:23:33] That's out.

[01:23:39] Garland has talked about journalism he wanted to frame them as heroes and he says he believes that you know journalism done right is meant to be a check on polarization.

[01:23:52] He says it's not meant to be it is that's its function.

[01:23:55] And so I feel like introducing this story that oh even these journalists weren't actually good.

[01:24:06] I don't know if I can believe that's his intention but maybe.

[01:24:10] Well his dad was a political cartoonist if I remember right and I think the core of the heroes of this movie the photo journalists the journalists were from.

[01:24:22] I think he in an interview I saw he was talking about how as a kid he was sitting with these revered journalists that were talking about you know protecting democracy and and playing it down the line and he grew up with a healthy sense of fairness and

[01:24:40] and he wanted to convey that in this movie and I think he does a good job and I guess that does counterpoint the ending but I there never was a moment.

[01:24:50] That I thought they were pure goodness never never the only one I got that from was from there were humans Sammy.

[01:24:56] Yeah yeah nobody's pure goodness and I'm not saying they're bad these were terrible human beings but.

[01:25:03] Well if you get someone killed and then you immediately don't care about them.

[01:25:07] Well I'm saying they were driven and self interested and she was in the same way that the mentor was who died but probably a little more probably a little more.

[01:25:20] Yeah or at least a little more than where we was character was at this point.

[01:25:27] Yeah because she was getting more she you know she had a lot of moments where she at first resisted like that whole parallel was making between Joel and Ellie in the last of us basically the same thing she grew to care about.

[01:25:41] Jesse to the point where she was mentoring her she was support supportive when Jesse was nervous about oh you don't want to see my photos and she's like oh yeah one out of every 30s a keeper and that's a great photo and.

[01:25:52] Yeah and I have spent a lot of time around reporters in my life my father was one I work with many and these are some of the most cynical people on earth.

[01:26:04] It doesn't mean they're not good people it doesn't mean they don't care about their craft or what they do or care about democracy and what you know journalism means they do care about all those things but man these are people who see everything and they become cynical and jaded over time.

[01:26:19] Yeah and my wife's a doctor and she's I don't even want to mention some of the things that she's had to do but you have to.

[01:26:28] Become disconnect yourself a little bit from what you're seeing sometimes.

[01:26:32] So I don't know if you know then David since you've been around reporters because these are war reporters but do you think it's realistic that the reporters are so close to the fighting like that.

[01:26:43] I do think so and I know just having watched a couple films from World War two and read some about how that photography was done.

[01:26:55] Yeah journalists photojournalists will get right in the middle of it.

[01:27:00] I mean watch that film 20 days in Marriapole I mean they're embedded with that Ukrainian unit in this hospital for days while it's being shelled and all the rest of it.

[01:27:12] You can really get that material I think in more time.

[01:27:15] Do you think there's something about enemy combatants sort of ignoring journalists on the other side or not.

[01:27:25] You know not what do you mean by is there something about it like is that standard.

[01:27:31] Does that happen to do people try to ask you to have even if they're from the other side.

[01:27:36] Yeah I think journalists are often a target usually a target I would say and they are a target in war zones I think they are a target and not always in every situation but often.

[01:27:50] And I think one of the most disturbing things about threats to democracy in this country have been the threats towards the free press in general and toward individuals which is always a sign of trying to repress democracy.

[01:28:06] Repress a free press.

[01:28:08] Absolutely I mean calling the media the enemy of the people is just a way of delegitimizing anyone who can hold you to account.

[01:28:18] Yeah and it's a very inflammatory language.

[01:28:21] Yeah yeah.

[01:28:23] Yep alright I'm pretty much through my points did you guys have any other main points before we go to notes.

[01:28:31] The only other main point I had was a scene we haven't talked about at all was.

[01:28:37] Oh that's right.

[01:28:39] Well no we haven't talked about that scene we gotta talk about that scene yeah.

[01:28:43] The gas scene okay yeah.

[01:28:45] The gas station scene was the first scene as we're driving through urban America where we see two men hanging in a car wash and one of the most surreal scenes where Jesse is kind of first to

[01:29:00] kind of well now this would be the second time she's kind of she walks over to these two men that are hanging in this man who was at the gas station kind of follows her and again the first time I saw this movie I thought man she's going to get shot

[01:29:16] and the whole conversation is had with yeah right.

[01:29:19] Right and I feel like even though that didn't happen even watching second time it felt like this can go any way at any time.

[01:29:27] He gives her that look right.

[01:29:28] Yeah yeah.

[01:29:30] He looks down at her and you're thinking yourself this could go and she when Lee comes up she actually totally diffuses the situation by saying seeing maybe what was going on and saying let me take a picture with them after he tells them that you know hey I went to high school with this guy he was a looter.

[01:29:49] And it could be seen and maybe is a clever way to diffuse the situation it's also a grizzled photojournalist getting the shot.

[01:29:58] Yeah and that's where we have that first conversation is they're leaving where Jesse says I didn't even take a picture.

[01:30:07] Yeah that was interesting and then Lee's like I got a kindergarten and old folks home in the back how did that happen and then Jesse's crying and Joel's like Jesus Christ.

[01:30:20] Yeah to me the main meaning in that scene was they weren't in danger obviously.

[01:30:27] And I thought what that scene was saying is hey once it's war all bets are off there are some people who just want to be cruel to other human beings I mean this guy kind of vaguely said oh they were looters like that's not what does that even mean.

[01:30:42] That's not even believable at this point it's like hey we found some guys we get tortured so we're doing it.

[01:30:49] And it was that it was also the first I mean the very first scene we saw Jesse and she was in an explosion but this shook her even more she got really rattled and this whole movie is her sort of toughening up and being forged and so this was the first instances of that.

[01:31:07] And we all know when we even when we start something new that's nothing near this you think you know how you're going to act like okay I'm learning soccer it's my first game and then you get any fuck it all up and don't remember anything.

[01:31:20] And that's kind of out was but then you go again and then you start to have your wits about you and you get better and better at it so in some sense this is like her first go at it which he totally failed.

[01:31:30] But then on the third thing is she's like saying why didn't we even tell him not to hurt them and Lee responds by saying when you start asking yourself those questions they'll never stop we're here to record this so that other people could act or something like that which really puts for that whole dispassionate observer kind of a thing.

[01:31:54] This whole movie tries to be a dispassionate observer we're not taking any side here.

[01:31:59] Which again leads us to the scene that we've been sort of alluding to through this whole thing I think it was seen that was in the trailer with Jesse Plemons that I think shook me to my core shakes me to my core every time I see it because again it's one of those things that you you hear about you know and and other countries but would never expect to happen here.

[01:32:21] And that of course is the scene where the the were Chloe that Jesse and one of the photo journalists they're like having this fun little moment where they're Tony where they're driving and they're hopping in between cars going like 85 miles an hour and.

[01:32:41] One of the cars gets run off the road with with Jesse not not Jesse Lee is in it.

[01:32:50] Chole is in it.

[01:32:52] Sammy Sammy and then that other the guy that was in Pittsburgh with our New York City with them but they go forward and and Chloe and Tony are missing the doors are open.

[01:33:06] They pull it in and of course we see from a distance Jesse Plemons and two other soldiers dumping a slew of bodies into a pit which which starts the scene that that probably everybody is talking about.

[01:33:21] And I'm just going to jump out of this because it was very disturbing.

[01:33:25] It was one of the most harrowing scenes very simple scene but one of the most harrowing scenes I've seen in a movie in a long long time with characters that we were very invested with.

[01:33:35] And and also by the way a scene where Alex Garland let Jesse Plemons sort of run with it a little bit because a little bit of what we see there according to Chloe Spaney was was she was he came after her with with with some improv stuff.

[01:33:56] Like what is the show me state.

[01:33:59] What is the show me state and she didn't know and and she was freaked out in that moment which we got a little bit of that realism.

[01:34:07] Yeah.

[01:34:08] Yeah.

[01:34:09] In a moment like that with a person like that and they're asking you a question and you don't know if this is just sort of he's just curious and it's small talking.

[01:34:16] It doesn't matter or if you give the wrong answer you could die.

[01:34:19] You know you just don't know.

[01:34:21] Did did you guys see the deer hunter.

[01:34:24] I never did.

[01:34:25] There's a scene in the deer hunter a Russian roulette scene in the deer hunter where Christopher Walken I believe it's Christopher Walken and a Vietnamese man or having this Russian roulette match.

[01:34:41] I haven't seen it in a long time.

[01:34:43] I saw it as a young and and I remember that that feeling that someone was going to die in this moment and is the exact same feeling I had when I was watching the scene it felt very much like a modern sort of Russian roulette.

[01:34:56] Yeah.

[01:34:57] And I would say that this scene was simultaneously the most viscerally shocking and disturbing in the movie and also really the least surprising thing that happened in the whole story.

[01:35:08] Yeah.

[01:35:09] I mean race conflict racism white supremacy whatever you want to call it is so deep in our history and still you know probably the number one flashpoint we fight over in the country I mean if there's a war and all the rules are gone and all bets are off that is going to come into it in some way shape or form so I wasn't surprised that he went there and I thought it almost had to be part of this story.

[01:35:36] Yeah.

[01:35:37] I was just thinking you know what it would be like to be there and if he was going around asking people where you were from that if you were from a place that you knew he would find quote unquote acceptable that you would feel relieved and ashamed at that relief at the same time you know.

[01:36:02] That's a great point and then I would say the other thing on top of that in this scene is I think there was a pretty good chance he was going to kill them all anyway.

[01:36:11] Yeah.

[01:36:12] Whatever they answered like he was kind of having his fun with I'm gonna let you live I'm gonna kill you but and Sammy pointed it out right away.

[01:36:21] Yeah.

[01:36:22] There's no way these guys are letting us walk out of here.

[01:36:24] This is death.

[01:36:25] Yeah.

[01:36:26] I mean it was a good thing he hung back but I yeah I thought maybe but not necessarily maybe maybe not probably but I do feel like at least in that moment he was sort of pondering whether to kill Joel because he said what kind of American are you Central American South American and then when he said I'm in Florida

[01:36:46] he goes so central and but he wasn't quite convinced because he didn't shoot him right there and then he went on to somebody else but then he started to get fight back and forth after he shot the guy from Hong Kong and Joel stood up and then that's when the Sammy came along in his car.

[01:37:02] Right.

[01:37:05] I don't personally believe they were any of them are walking out of their alive I you can't let somebody walk away from that.

[01:37:15] You can't let someone walk away from that especially journalists especially how he probably feels about journalists.

[01:37:22] Yeah probably so.

[01:37:26] All right.

[01:37:27] Shall we move on to notes?

[01:37:29] Let's move on to notes.

[01:37:30] Do you have any Jim?

[01:37:32] Yeah I think probably my favorite notes was early in the movie when she was talking about why she was named Lee.

[01:37:40] She talked about she was named after Lee Miller who was a World War II photojournalist and I had there's a movie about her that came out how gosh I don't know maybe seven or eight years ago and so I spent a little bit of time researching her a bit but she she was a

[01:38:02] famous for being a model who turned into a photojournalist in World War II and famously like was one of the first female photojournalists at the front lines of World War II but the day that Hitler was committed suicide she was actually in his apartment.

[01:38:22] There's a very famous photograph of her in his bathtub and at the foot of the bathtub are boots and those boots are covered in the dust of people who were killed and I think it was the cow.

[01:38:40] She had visited and took pictures in several concentration camps and found his apartment and the day he died was in his apartment walking through his apartment with the people that he had killed on her boots.

[01:38:58] I thought that was a really neat little story that just sort of got touched on but there is a good movie out there and I can't for the life of me remember who was in it but it's actually a really good movie called Lee that kind of shows the person that Lee Smith was named after so I thought that was kind of a neat little edition.

[01:39:20] It's cool I should have known but I didn't even realize that was a real person.

[01:39:24] Yeah of course.

[01:39:27] Anything else?

[01:39:28] No they briefly mentioned $300 Canadian as being positive and I thought that was interesting that the American dollar was completely devalued to the point where Canadian money was worth more than that I thought that was kind of a neat little toss in there as well.

[01:39:46] That was funny.

[01:39:47] Yeah Canadian dollars usually a punchline.

[01:39:54] David got any notes?

[01:39:55] I have two so one of them is about Wagner Mora Brazilian actor and it is his brilliant portrayal of Pablo Escobar that are the heart of the first two seasons of Narcos which is one of my favorite shows of all time.

[01:40:12] Got him a Golden Globe nomination.

[01:40:14] This is Joel.

[01:40:15] Joel yes.

[01:40:16] So I just thought it was interesting and I'm sure Alex Garland had this in mind but the culmination of Narcos and of Escobar's real life story is I would say one of the most famous photographs in world history.

[01:40:37] It's the Colombian soldiers and one American DEA agent sitting over the body of Escobar who they have just killed after this manhunt that went on for years and this war that killed tens of thousands of people in Colombia.

[01:40:56] And they actually essentially recreate the photo in Narcos and then they actually show you the real photo in the credits it's almost identical but so Wagner Mora is the centerpiece of that photo in Narcos and then gets this final moment where he's not in the photograph but he's part of the moment.

[01:41:16] What would be the same kind of photograph of history.

[01:41:21] So I love that little Easter egg and that symmetry.

[01:41:25] And then just a little bit on the production itself so a $50 million budget for this movie which I read is A24's largest to date.

[01:41:38] And A24 makes so many compelling and interesting movies but still a small budget movie by Hollywood standards.

[01:41:48] It's going to go way beyond that in revenue.

[01:41:51] I think they've already made back their $50 million probably.

[01:41:54] Good.

[01:41:55] And then some.

[01:41:56] It's now A24's biggest grossing movie it's that $60 million right now so it's made money.

[01:42:02] And a long, long way to go in streaming and all that.

[01:42:05] Yeah.

[01:42:06] Oh yeah.

[01:42:07] And then I read that most of the film is shot using a Ronin which is a camera I've become familiar with from sports photography.

[01:42:16] So it's essentially a very small light sort of steady cam like rig with a small 4k camera on it.

[01:42:28] And I imagine that modern technology was amazing for all these running scenes where they're running around with the military and the shot stays reasonably steady but you can move really quickly the camera's light.

[01:42:43] And all those scenes where they were embedded with the Western forces so it's interesting how the technology I think has changed movie making and actually made it more accessible to shoot things like that at lower price points.

[01:42:58] Amazing photographic technology has become available now to almost everyone which is great.

[01:43:03] More stories can be told.

[01:43:05] That's cool.

[01:43:07] You said Western forces and it made me realize there's a small part of me that was proud to be a Californian.

[01:43:15] Which is ridiculous.

[01:43:18] The two start flying.

[01:43:20] Yeah, maybe we can make it work Texas come on.

[01:43:25] My only note is yeah I just wanted to mention it's distributed by this film company a 24 which I think is great.

[01:43:34] They do thoughtful movies oftentimes weird disturbing not cookie cutter almost never probably never a few examples everything everywhere all at once the disaster artists about Tommy Wiseau who did the room room with Brie Larson 8th grade which was YouTube

[01:43:53] Bo Burnham's directorial debut is great.

[01:43:57] Minari with Steven Young of course ex machina we talked about two of my favorite sereditary and mid somar which is Ari Aster one of my favorite movie makers he recently I recently watched his three hour trippy movie Bo is afraid which I loved after I had a chance to think about it a little bit.

[01:44:14] And there's a bunch more that I want to see just because I like the ones I have seen from them.

[01:44:19] They punch above their weight.

[01:44:21] I think that's the most for sure.

[01:44:24] The whale moonlight.

[01:44:26] We're a 24.

[01:44:28] The witches one I want to see.

[01:44:30] Yeah, that's just like I know they want to do big productions but I hope I hope 50 millions I don't want them.

[01:44:37] Yeah, I want them right where they're at.

[01:44:45] All right, that is our show episode 578 thanks for listening everyone thank you guys I hope you enjoyed that I did.

[01:44:51] That was a great discussion.

[01:44:53] We're definitely going to get some one star reviews.

[01:44:56] That's kind of a you problem.

[01:44:58] Jason.

[01:44:59] Yeah, that's my problem.

[01:45:01] You don't need to worry about that.

[01:45:03] Well next episode if you still are going to keep listening to this podcast will be the Walking Dead season one episode eight Nebraska we're going back to the rewatch and we'll be going back to that probably in about a week and a half or so.

[01:45:14] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com

[01:45:21] And while you're there please please please check out our other podcasts of which there are many many that all are good I before we start recording David was talking about a lot of crossover and you know of course I've listened to Jason for 14 years and I've seen David on this podcast but I've seen them on several others and it was you know the pie you know I'm going to push one that I show up on here in there called still slang.

[01:45:51] If you watch Buffy if you don't watch Buffy give it a listen maybe it's a show you'll go back and listen to you but I think the two shows.

[01:45:59] I'm into Pake right now.

[01:46:01] So Pakes got a couple of great shows that he does my favorite one right now is Strange Indeed.

[01:46:13] Of course it's I guess it I gosh I don't even I would say it's known for you know stranger things but I it's just covers so many really interesting and fun and fun things.

[01:46:24] I would give that one a listen to but really just go to podcastic.com find a podcast pop into it and if you've seen a show that you maybe want to rewatch it trust me on this the details that that podcast it goes into with these shows

[01:46:41] and really the joy it's a family a family of podcasters and you know you can't really go around with a podcast that you listen to.

[01:46:50] You I want to mention that the big show out right now is fallout and we thought about doing an episode by episode podcast that they released them all at once and we figured let's just do a marathon podcast to cover the whole season so that's what we did it's three hours long it's out now on House podcastica.

[01:47:10] I may release it on this feed to since it's you know post apocalyptic and everything but I don't know yet but if you want to listen to it right now go to podcastic.com check out House podcastica it's me and Ben and my friend Doug.

[01:47:22] That's my next listen we we just inhaled that show over three nights really enjoyed loved it.

[01:47:29] Yeah, that's really really fun.

[01:47:32] This episode is made possible by patreon supporters like Amy Runk who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kibasi so thank you to Amy one of the perks is we do a call in shows every once in a while we're doing one this Monday on the women of rock will take turns playing songs from our favorite women in music so super fun.

[01:47:52] All right that is our show thanks for listening.

[01:47:55] Come on Texas let's see him up.