579: "Nebraska" (TWD S2E8 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast, I'm Jason.

[00:01:14] And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us Episode 579.

[00:01:18] And this episode we're back covering The Walking Dead Season 2 Episode 8, Nebraska.

[00:01:23] Nebraska. That's how we say it in the States. Nebraska.

[00:01:26] Nebraska. Really?

[00:01:27] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:01:28] Like Arkansas, right?

[00:01:29] I get off to do all the wrong things.

[00:01:30] No, Arkansas. Arkansas. Nebraska.

[00:01:31] Nebraska. Is that what you say?

[00:01:32] I hear it's nice. I hear it's lovely.

[00:01:33] I've never been there. I would like to go. It looks like wide open vistas and…

[00:01:34] Yeah, I don't think I've ever been either.

[00:01:35] I don't know. Yeah. I mean, they made that crack about flyover country. And Rick smirked

[00:01:51] and I'm like, you snobs.

[00:01:52] Yeah. I'm like, you're from Kentucky, mate. Also has a lot of prejudice against it.

[00:01:58] Yeah, that's true.

[00:01:59] I don't know. I've never been. I've never been to these places. But I'm like, Rick,

[00:02:01] don't be a dick.

[00:02:03] So we're back on the rewatch, which is awesome. I want to mention if you didn't get a chance

[00:02:07] to see The Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live, we both recommend it. And if you're in a place

[00:02:13] where it didn't air, which is so dumb that it doesn't just air everywhere. I don't know

[00:02:18] if I'm supposed to say this, but I recommend getting a VPN and watching it.

[00:02:23] I'm saying nothing. Nothing. I cannot endorse or say anything about that. But it's worth

[00:02:28] watching.

[00:02:29] These VPN companies, they say, yeah, that's our selling point. You can watch stuff from

[00:02:34] other regions. So I'm like, hey, if they're advertising it, then I don't know. But anyway,

[00:02:38] I'll just tell you they're advertising. So I want to mention too, there was a question

[00:02:43] from one of you guys whether it was okay to leave feedback that includes spoilers for

[00:02:49] the spinoffs. And that made me wonder if we should be careful of that for ourselves.

[00:02:53] I put a poll up on Facebook whether people wanted us to include spoilers.

[00:02:57] Oh, of course. Yeah.

[00:02:59] And the vast majority said go ahead. But a few said, please don't because they're in

[00:03:04] places where they haven't been able to see it. And so what I propose, and this is the

[00:03:09] first time I'm saying this to Lucy, is that we are okay with minor things, but no like

[00:03:14] twists or big plot things that if we have anything like that, we can keep it to the

[00:03:18] end and talk about it.

[00:03:19] I think that's fair.

[00:03:20] Yeah.

[00:03:21] Yeah. I might stumble this first time because I hadn't thought about it in those terms,

[00:03:25] but I think we should be okay. Yeah.

[00:03:27] Yeah. And if you if we need to adjust on the fly, because I do even for this podcast have

[00:03:32] some stuff that I put to the end. So we could just adjust that on the fly if we need to.

[00:03:36] But I think so just so you guys know, that's what we're going to do, which means that

[00:03:41] we will be talking about some small details. And I think that's a good compromise. If you

[00:03:47] feel strongly against that, let me know. But we're trying to, you know, toe the line here

[00:03:52] so we don't restrict our conversation too much, but we don't give away any big, big

[00:03:55] spoilers.

[00:03:56] I think that is a good compromise.

[00:03:58] All right. So The Walking Dead season two, episode eight, Nebraska in general. What'd

[00:04:04] you think?

[00:04:05] Oh, it was great to be back with the main show. It was so funny seeing Andrew Lincoln

[00:04:10] like 14 years younger. Neither is bad. Spoiler, he looks great in the ones who live as well.

[00:04:17] But it was just really funny. I just really noticed it this time. I was like, oh, he's

[00:04:21] really like a young, young guy here. So it was nice to be back with.

[00:04:27] I look back at pictures of myself when I started the podcast and it's the same thing.

[00:04:31] It's wild, isn't it? You're like, oh, shit. Yeah. It's Andrew Lincoln, but different. I

[00:04:37] enjoyed it. I really did. It's hard not to just spill into watching the next few episodes.

[00:04:42] So I'm doing a little bit of this and that, which are probably not the best form, but

[00:04:47] it is a good place to restart the rewatch. I think it's a nice kind of point to pick

[00:04:52] up the conversation.

[00:04:53] Yeah. I was looking at it that because of the ones who live, we took a three month break

[00:04:58] in between episodes seven and eight. And that's pretty much exactly what they did back when

[00:05:05] it originally aired. Seven was in November, eight was in February. So it's kind of the

[00:05:09] same thing. And I love how, you know, a lot of shows after a break like that, they'll

[00:05:15] say previously, even Walking Dead has done that later previously on The Walking Dead.

[00:05:20] This one, they just show you're looking down the barrel of Rick's gun and he lowers it

[00:05:25] and you're like, oh yeah, I know exactly what just happened.

[00:05:28] And then you see Sophia's body just really economical. Like you, you're brought right

[00:05:32] back to where we left off.

[00:05:34] You probably know the answer to this. Did they shoot it all as a one? They didn't have

[00:05:37] a break in the shooting.

[00:05:39] I don't know the answer. I don't remember. I just assumed, you know what they probably,

[00:05:47] I don't know.

[00:05:48] I don't know. There wasn't any obvious because sometimes you can tell when there's been a

[00:05:51] break, like someone has a mustache suddenly or yeah. Carl's like 34 and you're like, oh,

[00:05:56] I feel like sometime might have passed. It looked to me like they had just gone right

[00:06:00] through, but I could be wrong.

[00:06:02] Yeah, I don't know. Because there may be some behind the scenes stuff where they have to

[00:06:08] break between each show or each episode or something. I'm not sure. But yeah, it looked

[00:06:12] really seamless for me.

[00:06:15] I the scene with Dave and Tony at the end is what makes this episode stand out. It's

[00:06:21] always what I think of the two guys in the bar. And other than that, I feel like it's

[00:06:29] fine, but it feels the things about it. I'm surprised because I always remember Nebraska

[00:06:34] is one of my favorites and I do like it. But what what stands out to me watching it now

[00:06:39] is it's all of the things that I didn't like about season two, which is that it's very

[00:06:44] soap operation and repetitive. More of Rick fretting about his leadership. More of Shane

[00:06:49] complaining Rick is too soft and he's the one taking the action that needs to be taken

[00:06:52] to make the hard choices. More of Shane being defensive about that style of clashing with

[00:06:56] Dale. Another thing where Rick needs to go help someone and Laurie objects with the

[00:07:02] things that we've seen over and over. And it's all sort of intensifying and getting

[00:07:06] more progressing, but slowly.

[00:07:10] I feel this is the episode where Laurie's character takes a bit of a nosedive as well.

[00:07:17] I don't know. I feel like this is the point where it starts to be a bit like what are

[00:07:20] your what are your motivations here? What do you want? And why the hell do you need a

[00:07:25] map to drive to a town that's five seconds away? Anyway, yeah.

[00:07:29] I remember that scene where she crashes the car being the thing that a lot of people are

[00:07:35] either like, oh, fucking Laurie or fucking riders. Why do they make Laurie look so stupid?

[00:07:41] And so I had that in my head and watching it now. I'm like, I could see my like people

[00:07:48] text and drive. That's what it reminded me of people texting and driving now looking

[00:07:52] at the map and not expecting anything to be in the road because, A, season two is also

[00:07:58] notorious for having no fucking zombies.

[00:08:03] Laurie's not shocked. She's just shocked there's a zombie. No one told Sarah Wayne Callies.

[00:08:08] She's like, what? We haven't had one of these in an episode for a long time.

[00:08:12] So I didn't feel quite as critical of her as I thought I would maybe of the writers

[00:08:17] still, but I'm like, it's not great, but it's not as bad. People have done way stupider

[00:08:23] things on the show in my opinion.

[00:08:25] I mean, that is not wrong. Both can be true. This can be dumb and also people can have

[00:08:29] done stupid things as well. Well, my first point was Laurie just because I think coming

[00:08:35] out of The Ones Who Live, which is as I don't think this is a spoiler, very focused on Rick

[00:08:39] and Michonne. It was kind of jarring to see Rick and Laurie back together, not back together,

[00:08:45] but as a couple and see that dynamic. It felt very like 14 years had passed.

[00:08:52] It's like when you, when I'll speak personally, I'm with somebody and I'm like, I've had a

[00:08:58] girlfriend. I remember I'm thinking of one in particular and I'm like, God, it just doesn't

[00:09:02] feel right, but it's got to be right. Like, why? Why does it feel this way? I don't know.

[00:09:06] How do we make it work? And then you get break up and it's hard and then you get together

[00:09:11] with somebody else and I look back and I'm like, I never should have been with that person.

[00:09:14] It just wasn't right. It kind of feels like that.

[00:09:18] It's cute though, because I'm like, Judith's cooking. I'm just like really psyched that

[00:09:23] Judith's on the show. I'm like, Judith's there. It was interesting to me that Laurie and Carl

[00:09:27] are still sitting by the barn, like almost in shock while other people have moved away

[00:09:32] from it. And Carl talks to her about, he thought he'd be the one to find Sophia. And I think

[00:09:38] that he would have shot her or something like that. I don't know. He says something that

[00:09:41] shocks Laurie. He says Rick did the right thing and I would have done the same thing.

[00:09:45] He's not wrong, but it shocks Laurie and I can see why it shocks her. Like that is a shock

[00:09:49] to hear your kids say. Yes. And I remember at this point in the series we were like,

[00:09:54] oh my God, Carl is growing up in this horrible world and he's going to be this cold blooded,

[00:09:59] ruthless kid. And they continued on with that as we know he shot that kid in season three.

[00:10:05] But later on he doesn't, in my opinion, he's a good hearted kid. He's sensitive.

[00:10:11] He takes action when it needs to, but I don't feel like he's the psycho that we were afraid

[00:10:16] he was going to be. And he's actually the one he writes that letter after he gets bitten and it

[00:10:22] is one of the things that convinces Rick to take a softer line on things.

[00:10:26] Yeah. And I think that's, it's nice knowing that that's how it ends up because there are

[00:10:30] moments where you're like, oh God. And Laurie brings up later with Rick where she's like,

[00:10:34] he's becoming hard. He's becoming, he's becoming affected by the world around them.

[00:10:40] And you see Laurie as well trying her best with Rick, trying to comfort him about Sophia and not

[00:10:44] knowing. And he's very unforgiving of himself. He's like, she was there the whole time.

[00:10:49] She still got bit. Carl got shot. I had people chasing a ghost in a forest.

[00:10:52] Rick saying all that stuff is more, he does a lot of fretting in this season about his decisions.

[00:10:58] And this is a little bit of a spoiler for the ones who live, but they just amp that up to a thousand

[00:11:05] and it really, um, I admired it because it's like, yeah, that's Rick. I remember him being

[00:11:10] like that early on in the walking dead and now he's just totally disintegrated.

[00:11:14] 100% like the, the through line, I would expect nothing less from Andy Lincoln,

[00:11:20] who I think is such a good character actor. Um, but the through line of Rick here and Rick and

[00:11:24] the ones who live is really clear. Like it's not like they suddenly made him a different character.

[00:11:29] I'm like, no, this, this tracks. Um, Laurie goes to someone, Carol for the burial and you know,

[00:11:36] tries to talk about it being her little girl and Carol's quite somber and says, you know,

[00:11:40] it's not my little girl. So if he has been dead a long time and again,

[00:11:42] Laurie looks a bit taken aback by that. And then of course she sneaks out her revolver,

[00:11:48] her jacket and her map for a five minute drive on a straight road and shows that once and for all,

[00:11:55] women are bad drivers. So you know, that settles that. Um, I also enjoyed the scene very much with

[00:12:02] her and Daryl where she kind of tries to get Daryl to basically run an errand for her. Um,

[00:12:08] I kind of side with Daryl in that way. Like I know he's hurting because

[00:12:12] of Sophia and a lot of this episode I think is about Daryl not dealing with the fact that Sophia

[00:12:17] is gone and dead and that they couldn't have saved her. But it's also the iconic

[00:12:22] olive oil line and referring to Rick as her bitch, which I just find so funny. I think

[00:12:27] I remember this being one of the scenes where I started to actively like Daryl as a character

[00:12:31] and I was like, that's actually really funny. And there was a bit of me that is like, yeah,

[00:12:35] do it yourself, Laurie, but do it good. Oh wait, no, you've done it badly. Nevermind. Oh well,

[00:12:39] guess you're in the ditch now. So here we are.

[00:12:41] All right. Well, my first point is also it's Andrea and Laurie are doing mostly good things

[00:12:50] in this one is my point. Oh controversial. Let's do this. Yeah. Cause Andrea and Laurie,

[00:12:56] I feel like they were more or less collected and effective except for that one thing in this. Um,

[00:13:03] Andrea's feeling she's, you know, in the aftermath of what happened with the barn and killing all the

[00:13:11] family's heads and everything. Everybody's distraught to different degrees. And I think

[00:13:17] Andrea and T dog and even Laurie are calmer about it with cooler heads and just, and because of that,

[00:13:25] they're the ones sort of directing things. And like, first off, Beth is probably in the least

[00:13:32] good shape. Beth is going to feel like Taylor Swift breakup album. And she's like,

[00:13:41] and she's just a kid and she's probably just had full faith in her father that they were going to

[00:13:47] bring her family back, you know? So this is so traumatic. And then to have her go over to her

[00:13:52] mother and have her mother, you know, it's like compounding the trauma and it's um, and she did

[00:14:00] so well. Emily Kinney in this, I thought she was really good. That was when she kind of stepped

[00:14:04] forward for the first time I think. And then stepped right back into a coma. Yeah. And then

[00:14:09] briefly, briefly stepped into the light and then was in a coma for a while. So anyway, you know,

[00:14:17] Andrea like attack or finish her off with this, I guess it's a scythe or that blade curved blade

[00:14:27] Yeah. And after T dog had been stomping on her head, the zombies later get butter heads and

[00:14:32] one stomp would have definitely done it, but not they're not like that yet, I guess.

[00:14:36] Yeah. And then Andrea calls for a service before they start burying. And Laurie says to dig graves

[00:14:46] for Annette, Maggie and Beth's mother and Sean, their brother or stepbrother and Sophia. And then

[00:14:54] Jimmy I think asks, well, what about the rest? And that's a lot of digging. And Andrea says we

[00:14:58] buried the ones we love and burn the rest. So she's just coming up with solutions right away.

[00:15:03] And that's really harsh, but it makes sense. You know, and then Andrea helps dig the graves.

[00:15:10] Not Laurie, but Andrea does, you know, she's always helping.

[00:15:14] I'll say Laurie also remembers Annette and Sean's names, which I thought was nice.

[00:15:18] Yeah. And, you know, and knows who's important. Yeah. Yeah. And then Andrea helps put the bodies

[00:15:25] in the truck, you know, there and they did a good job making them feel heavy and unwieldy.

[00:15:30] I did. I have a little section called unintentional humor. I did laugh when she's

[00:15:35] running after the van with the arm that's falling off. I don't know why I find that

[00:15:38] so funny, but I really did. Well, I think that was intentional.

[00:15:41] Yeah. Probably Nicotero was giggling at that. They probably I would imagine they added that

[00:15:46] in the moment. Let's have an arm fall off. It's just so like it's like very somber,

[00:15:50] very somber. It's like, oh, fuck, wait, no. Oh, I got it. I got it.

[00:15:53] Like, yeah. And it's just I think the point of it is to show the grim reality that they need

[00:15:59] to get used to. And I wrote, too. It's almost kind of funny. And and also just to show that

[00:16:04] Andrea is rather chill about it. She doesn't mind writing in the back with all the corpses.

[00:16:09] So she's got a cool head. Yeah. About all this. Now, Laurie, when Dale's arguing with T-Dog and

[00:16:16] Andrea about whether Shane should have done what he did, did. Laurie's there just getting heated.

[00:16:22] And Laurie goes, there's no point in arguing about it. It's done. And I don't know, maybe

[00:16:26] there is a point, but she diffuses a heated situation and even put her hand on Dale's

[00:16:30] shoulder to say it's OK. I still like you. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Good. Then, Laurie. So there's

[00:16:38] a little bit of hypocrisy going on here with Laurie. She doesn't want Rick going out to help

[00:16:44] to find her soul and risk his life because he has the son to raise. And that's more important. So.

[00:16:51] So then she's like, OK, he's out and I'm going to go to your her his other parents

[00:16:59] and leaving him with Andrea to watch over him. But other on the other hand, she is trying to help,

[00:17:05] even if it means putting herself at risk. And I think there's something to be said for that.

[00:17:09] It's also about getting Herschel back, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. To help. So, I mean, as as Rick said,

[00:17:17] he can help with the baby, deliver the baby and Beth's in trouble. And so, yeah, then the thing

[00:17:24] about her getting into the wreck, as I said, I wasn't quite as critical because I know that

[00:17:28] this kind of thing happens every day. It's not good. You should not text and drive. But she

[00:17:34] thought everyone was gone. So anyway, what's not great? But but there were a bunch of good things,

[00:17:41] you know, little thing. I thought they were some of the most capable aside from the car wreck.

[00:17:46] Yeah. I think the ongoing relationship disagreement with her and Rick about him

[00:17:50] running off or heading off after something has happened, it pleased me that this comes up again

[00:17:56] with her saying, you know, you want to have a conversation about this and this is not the

[00:17:59] time to head off. And Rick kind of saying we need him for the baby. He's maybe thinking more longer

[00:18:06] term at this point than Laurie is. But also it could just be one of Rick's kind of more fabricated

[00:18:12] reasons for wanting to get away from something. Well, so yeah, this is that point again that you

[00:18:18] and I don't quite see eye to eye. I he I do agree that it might be more fabricated because

[00:18:27] the first thing he says is this is the least we can do for Herschel. And so he's thinking about

[00:18:33] that as the first reason like I want to help. Right. And I just think that Rick feels responsibility

[00:18:40] for everyone and that he and Laura, I tried to get into Laurie's head here and I can totally see

[00:18:48] Laurie being like, dude, you have a son. OK, maybe you feel guilty because you

[00:18:55] suggested this course of action and it led to something that's caused this blow up. But still,

[00:19:02] where's your priorities? Is it with your son or with these other people? Come on. You know,

[00:19:07] I want a husband who I can trust that's going to be here to protect our son. And so I can

[00:19:13] understand that. But then she goes off to. So, OK, whatever. Oh, Carl. As far as Rick goes,

[00:19:20] though, I think I just still don't quite see it as him trying to avoid or get away from something as

[00:19:28] much as just feeling guilt and responsibility for everybody and feeling like he has to fix

[00:19:33] and help everything, you know, not to get away from something, but to do something to help and

[00:19:38] fix and be the hero and take responsibility for everything. I do, though, in the ones who live,

[00:19:44] think that you're then. Oh, yeah. Lucy's right now. Like I do feel like he's avoiding something

[00:19:50] there. But 14 years later, I am vindicated. I think it doesn't matter. I think he can be

[00:19:56] he can be running away from not wanting to sit in feelings because he feels guilty.

[00:20:00] Like I think it's perfectly acceptable to be like, I feel a huge amount of guilt and discomfort

[00:20:04] about this. My way of dealing with it is to go and act and do something. Yeah, I think that's what

[00:20:09] he's doing. Yeah. He's acting out of guilt and sort of this need to protect and take care of

[00:20:19] everything. Yeah. And and it can be unhealthy if if it's just a feeling that's so strong that you

[00:20:26] act without thinking it through. Like what is the best course of action for to do here if you're

[00:20:31] just reacting to a feeling, you know, and Rick's a hothead like a lot of the characters in The

[00:20:35] Walking Dead are hotheads. And I think he he is very instinctively driven at that point.

[00:20:41] I have a point that's just about the aftermath of the barn kind of the cold open. I thought

[00:20:47] I would go there because I think we'll move into stuff that happens later in the episode. So

[00:20:52] I thought the they really capture the sense of like shock and of what's what's happened,

[00:21:00] what everyone has seen. And we see Carol kind of wailing and Rick's face just being absolutely like

[00:21:05] broken. We see the first like Darrell saying don't look, which is repeated in later seasons when

[00:21:11] Carol finds Henry's head on the pike. Carol was holding her back saying don't look,

[00:21:17] which I think is a nice call forward. One of the other points I'll run two points together

[00:21:23] here is I thought the use of silence in this episode was really good. I thought the silence,

[00:21:27] it wasn't quite a wordless cold open, especially not when we get into like the fighting near the

[00:21:33] porch of the farm. But the shock silence was used really well and people not saying a lot but but

[00:21:40] responding in other ways. I'm not even sure if there's any music. I feel like not. No,

[00:21:45] and Beth being attacked is incredible. That shot of Andrea scything her mom through the

[00:21:51] head is just unreal. It's kind of it's a lot of it's badass but also tragic.

[00:21:58] I hated Shane yelling at Herschel. I was like this is Shane almost his worst at this point. I was

[00:22:03] like there's no need for this. But I fucking loved Maggie giving back what she gets and slapping

[00:22:08] Shane saying haven't you done enough and Herschel saying I mean it off my land. Yeah, amazing.

[00:22:14] That's a good dramatic moment. If I had any criticism about that, it's that okay, you just

[00:22:21] as far you know that they think that their family could have been cured and you just massacred them

[00:22:26] and now you're yelling at them. That seems like maybe forced drama, you know, but then again,

[00:22:36] Shane is a hothead. And he when he's on fire like that, there's no talking to him. But it was the

[00:22:43] worst thing he could awful and he's just trying to justify his shitty action, which although right

[00:22:50] was done in a shitty way. Yes, that's a good way to put it. Like maybe you ultimately wanted to get

[00:22:55] to that but not in a way that just like you've set a bomb off. No awful. And Rick sticks up for

[00:23:01] Herschel. And Shane says Rick, you're just as delusional as that guy, which I don't think is

[00:23:06] fair. I don't think that's quite quite right. To be honest. He's just going off popping off.

[00:23:12] Yeah. And of course we see later Herschel with his wife, his wife's things, his hip flask appears.

[00:23:17] And what I thought was really powerful about that is we don't see the service. It's silent and

[00:23:22] everyone scatters after that point. And there's this shot of everyone just moving away. That's

[00:23:27] really lovely. I think they didn't. They didn't show the service because I don't know. This is

[00:23:34] just speculation, but maybe it would have been a little bit comforting and that's not what they're

[00:23:38] going for right now. It's not meant to be comfortable at all. When everybody walked

[00:23:42] their separate ways, I felt like what is this synchronized swimming? This is weird.

[00:23:47] No, I was like, aren't you all just going to the house?

[00:23:50] Like you don't like each other anymore? Like, yeah, I know. I was like, it's very beautiful.

[00:23:56] The other excellent use of silence I thought was Shane going off at Dale. That scene where

[00:24:01] Jeffrey Duhemann doesn't say anything and Shane just gets out of the car and goes off and is just

[00:24:07] next time I need a radiator hose, I'll give you a call man. You've moral authority here. And

[00:24:11] literally it's just JDM's amazing eyebrows and eyes and Shane just losing it. Which I think in

[00:24:17] a way is comforting because it shows that Shane does still have some morality there that Dale can

[00:24:22] get under his skin that way without even saying a word of knowing that he has done something that

[00:24:27] is pretty reprehensible. But I just thought it was a really powerful decision to have Dale just not

[00:24:32] say anything. Just look at him like, well, I mean, the look on his face is as if he had said,

[00:24:40] you're a bad man. You are a bad dude. But more than anyone I've ever seen in my life.

[00:24:50] Yeah, you're disgusting. Yeah. But yeah, like Shane arguing with him and then maybe you're

[00:24:57] already going to bring this up, but then, you know, acting like he's trying to comfort

[00:25:02] Carol, but really he's trying to get some validation from her that what he did was okay.

[00:25:06] Oh, interesting. Is that how you read that scene?

[00:25:11] Yeah. Because he's like, oh, Carol, are you okay? Let me wash your, you know, I didn't mean to do

[00:25:15] anything and I'm just trying to keep everybody safe, but everybody thinks I'm he's making it all

[00:25:19] about himself. That's true. That's really interesting because I thought that scene was

[00:25:24] super sweet. Well, not sweet. I just thought it was a very interesting. I always think when

[00:25:30] someone is washing someone else in that way, always makes me think of like biblical references

[00:25:36] and like very sort of very profound things. And part of me was like, oh, this shows that Shane

[00:25:41] still has some humanity. I think there's some of that in there. But I think there is some sort

[00:25:47] of Shakespearean stuff like what you're saying there about him trying to get Carol to validate

[00:25:52] what he did as well. Because I think so, you know, I think he does feel bad about it when

[00:25:57] it's Carol. I don't think he feels bad about her soul's family at all. I mean, he didn't know them.

[00:26:01] He and also I just he's like, I'm I didn't know she was in there. But also, just a few minutes

[00:26:09] ago, he was yelling at Rick. I wanted to call this search off a long time ago. And now he's telling

[00:26:16] the girl's mother, oh, I'm so sorry about what happened. But I just think throughout this whole

[00:26:21] thing, Shane is upset and trying to assert that he did the right thing. And it's clearly from a

[00:26:29] reactive place because he's so just wired, right? And I don't know if that's in part because he's

[00:26:36] deep down feels guilty and doubtful that he's doing the right thing. But I don't think so.

[00:26:40] I think it's more that he's convinced he is right, but he can see that no one else buys into it. And

[00:26:46] so he's worried about being ostracized and he wants to make sure that they know that he's right.

[00:26:52] You know, I think the people that he cares about thinking he's right, because like Andrea clearly

[00:26:57] thinks he's right. But I don't think he's valuing Andrea's opinion that much. I think he's like,

[00:27:01] but Laurie doesn't think and that's the thing. Sometimes we go after the people who don't.

[00:27:07] We take for granted the people who are on our side and we don't treat them as well. And then

[00:27:10] we chase after the ones who aren't, you know, with it.

[00:27:14] Yeah. I don't know. Andrea's so I don't know. I'm a bit like girl, this guy doesn't like you.

[00:27:18] He's having a baby with Laurie. Don't be. She's like, I shot to Shane. I'm like,

[00:27:23] Andrea, calm, calm down. Calm down love.

[00:27:27] You'll meet somebody else later. The governor. He's great.

[00:27:29] Yeah. And of course, the reason Carol's arms need wash is because she's been ripping up Cherokee

[00:27:34] roses and getting stung by plants and things, which is so sad. Poor Carol.

[00:27:39] It is. And I noticed, so I think there's a theme of hope in this episode, giving up hope,

[00:27:44] losing hope. And, um, Herschel mentioned that he, or somebody mentioned that Herschel stopped

[00:27:51] drinking when Maggie was born. And I think that was like, okay, this child means I have to get

[00:27:56] my act together that I need to secure a future for my family. So I got to be a good upstanding man.

[00:28:02] And when he looks at the flask and it clearly, he's like, I'm going to the bar. It's like,

[00:28:09] I've given all that up, right? I've given hope. And then very next scene is Carol thrashing away

[00:28:15] at the Cherokee rose, which also symbolized hope, you know? So it's just two scenes in a row of

[00:28:20] we've we're, we've given up like it's hopeless. I know. I think there's another powerful use of

[00:28:25] silence in the RV when Carol's just sitting there and Darrell comes in and they don't say anything

[00:28:31] to one another. And, um, yeah, Darrell's hurting a lot in this episode. Uh, your turn, I think.

[00:28:37] Speaker 3 Okay. So fretting and self doubt, lots of people being down on themselves in this one.

[00:28:44] Rick fretting over the results of his decision making again, like you mentioned,

[00:28:47] you tried to protect Sophia, but she still got bit and Carl got shot and had everyone chasing

[00:28:52] a ghost in a forest. And, um, I'm like, well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, the only thing I

[00:29:00] super critical of him for was leaving Sophia alone. Really? Uh, the other thing is it's just hard.

[00:29:07] It's no clear right thing to do. Um, but when he left Sophia alone, I'm like, no, just to

[00:29:16] have her run with you or later would have just knifed those ads, but they didn't, they weren't

[00:29:21] good at that yet. They weren't getting as close up to them either. But I think as a leader,

[00:29:25] you understand that you do the best you can and sometimes things don't go right and you learn

[00:29:29] and you move on even when the stakes are high. If you're a good leader, you won't torture yourself

[00:29:34] over it. Um, and then later when Glenn apologizes for not telling Rick that Laurie was pregnant

[00:29:39] and he says, I'm sorry I kept it from you. And Rick says, don't be. You did what you thought

[00:29:43] was right. Just so happens it wasn't. And I'm like, yeah, that's the advice that you should

[00:29:47] be taking yourself. Don't be sorry. Just yeah. Yeah. I also like don't know that Glenn was wrong.

[00:29:54] I didn't. I find that quite harsh from Rick. I was like, I don't know that what Glenn did was

[00:29:58] wrong. I'm just like, yeah, he kept confidence. But I could see Rick from his point of view. Like

[00:30:04] I don't like that. He just went full. Yeah. I don't think Rick said it in a way to guilt Glenn.

[00:30:09] I think you said it very factually. I'm like, Oh, if someone said that to me, I would be gutted.

[00:30:12] I'd be like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. I just my heart breaks every time we see these scenes with Glenn

[00:30:18] because he's so decent. He's such a decent person and I'm just like, oh, why? Anyway,

[00:30:25] and he's, he's in a place where he doesn't know his own worth. I think that's what his

[00:30:34] character is about right now. He asked Maggie if she knew Sophia was in the barn and Maggie is

[00:30:40] doesn't even dignify it with a response. And I don't blame her for being mad at that because

[00:30:45] to me, Maggie is like, we're connected. We're, we're together now and we're tight, aren't we?

[00:30:52] You shouldn't have to ask that. But the fact that you did makes me wonder what you think we are.

[00:30:57] Oh, they are so on different pages. Yeah. I've seen, aren't they like,

[00:31:00] oh, it's terrible. And then he starts talking about his group. It can move on now. And she's

[00:31:05] like, what the fuck? And yeah, it's, I don't think it's that he doesn't want to be with her.

[00:31:09] I think it's that he doesn't believe she'd want him. Yeah. And Maggie asked him if he'd stay

[00:31:14] and he starts to say he'd want to, but then Beth collapses so they can't finish the conversation.

[00:31:20] And then he's telling Rick, Maggie told me he loved, she loved me, but she couldn't have meant

[00:31:26] it and she must've been upset or confused. And Rick is great here. He like, he's great at giving

[00:31:32] Glenn advice. Yeah. I couldn't decide if it was father, son or brothers. I was like, there's just

[00:31:37] such a lovely scene with them in the car. I love their relationship. I will say I was worried about

[00:31:43] how Glenn was holding the gun. Didn't we all learn from Pulp Fiction? Which Pulp Fiction should exist

[00:31:49] in this universe that that shouldn't be how you hold a gun. I think it's off to the side, but

[00:31:53] in that camera angle, it looks like it's pointed right at his head. So it's hard to listen to what

[00:31:56] he's saying. It's still risky. It is. I'm like Glenn. But yeah, I think we, I think we might

[00:32:02] have mentioned that when I podcasted about this. And gun safety Rick Grimes is like, yeah, this

[00:32:06] is fine. I see no issue with that. I'm like. But so Rick says, I think she's smart enough to know

[00:32:11] what she's feeling. Glenn says she wants to be in love. So she's, she's needing something to like,

[00:32:17] hold on to. And he goes, Glenn, it's pretty obvious to everyone. Maggie loves you. And not

[00:32:21] just because you're one of the last men standing. So what's the problem? Well, I didn't say it back.

[00:32:25] I've never had the woman say that to me before, you know, except my mom and my sisters.

[00:32:30] Glenn had sisters. I love that bit of fact. I don't think that ever gets mentioned again. I

[00:32:35] don't think the re family we get a little bit of I can see Glenn as being a guy who's grown up around

[00:32:42] sisters. Actually, he's very I don't know. Yeah, he's, he's very understanding and not

[00:32:47] afraid of going on a tampon run. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I think Rick,

[00:32:53] I just love Rick here. He's just like, it's a good thing. We don't get enough of that these days.

[00:32:57] Enjoy it. You can say it to her when you get back. She's not going anywhere. And you know,

[00:33:02] Glenn's like, well, she doesn't even know me. How could she know? And I don't think Rick is like,

[00:33:06] oh, she knows enough to know and it's solid as much as just give it a shot. You know, I mean,

[00:33:14] it seems pretty good so far. Rick's like, and if you're lucky,

[00:33:17] she won't sleep with your best friend and have his baby. So like, you know,

[00:33:21] and I think, you know, this, it feels just like it feels like Yeah, it could be father,

[00:33:26] but maybe more an older brother, where you've gone through, you had girlfriends, and you just know,

[00:33:32] yeah, when you have your first one, every little thing is like, what is going on? Why? Why? What

[00:33:37] do I do? And after a while, it's like, okay, okay, roll with the bumps and things.

[00:33:41] It's something I'm sure I've said this on the podcast before, but I think the comics do a

[00:33:47] slightly better job of exploring Rick's guilt about Glenn after Glenn dies. I think in the show,

[00:33:53] they really focus on Maggie's loss. And that's fair. Like, I understand that. But in the comics,

[00:33:59] I remember get coming away with the sense that the loss of Glenn was really seismic for Rick as

[00:34:04] well, because of him being the person who you owe his life to and like the decent person. And I

[00:34:10] think they did touch on it in the show. And maybe when we come to rewatch it, I'll be like, Oh, no,

[00:34:14] they really did do a good job with that. But this scene made me remember that their relationship is

[00:34:18] very textured and very rich. Yeah. Yeah. The worst bit the rewatches seeing Glenn. I'm just like,

[00:34:26] Oh, every time. That's funny. Are you watching Invincible?

[00:34:32] Yes, I'm a few episodes behind by love. And this is Amazon animated series based on

[00:34:39] Robert Kirkman's other comic series that was running alongside The Walking Dead. And it's

[00:34:45] really good. And he has Kirkman has said that he would like to do an animated version of The

[00:34:52] Walking Dead that he's closely to the comic. Yeah, I think probably that's because of his

[00:34:58] experience with Invincible. And when I first heard that, I was like, Oh, we've already had enough

[00:35:02] walking dead. But I'm like, Oh, no, invincible is great. Yeah, this would be great. And he said he

[00:35:06] doesn't want to do it unless he can get the rights back from AMC. So I,

[00:35:10] I Oh my god, that will be a century in the future. No,

[00:35:13] I don't know how that works. Like, I think if you don't do something with it for a certain

[00:35:17] amount of time, the rights revert back. I'm not sure. Maybe not. But anyway, it would be cool.

[00:35:23] And I presume he wants to have full control over it. Like he wouldn't do it unless he could have

[00:35:27] full control. So he could make it exactly the way he wanted. But that would be pretty cool.

[00:35:32] That'd be pretty cool. I always really liked as well that Stephen Yeun went back and did

[00:35:35] Invincible because I was worried for a while that he was like very over The Walking Dead. And I

[00:35:40] think he is. But it's nice to me that he has that relationship with Kirkman that he was going to

[00:35:44] that role because he's so good. Like it's such a great show.

[00:35:48] Yeah, and they made the character Mark Grayson is I think he's just a Caucasian kid in the comics,

[00:35:57] but they made him half Asian.

[00:35:59] Sandra Oh is his mom. Which is so fun. I did notice as well that Rick puts a good word in for

[00:36:07] Glenn with Herschel when Herschel's like, Are you alone? Who's with you? And he's like,

[00:36:11] it's Glenn. And it's like, did Maggie make him come and Rick's like, No, he volunteered. He's

[00:36:15] good like that. I'm like, that's, that's big brother energy. I like that. It's like, no,

[00:36:20] he's a good kid.

[00:36:20] Chris He's also like covering for Maggie who actually did not want Glenn to go.

[00:36:27] So more fretting, Daryl, I think, yeah, I guess I can understand how he is. But it made me think,

[00:36:39] future Daryl, if it was like, Oh, we need to go get some help for Beth. He would have been on it

[00:36:45] because him and Beth had this connection, but they don't now and he's in his phase where he's like,

[00:36:50] he's been experimenting with being more involved in the group and it just didn't work out. And he's

[00:36:54] like, fuck it.

[00:36:55] It's just backfired fucking horribly, hasn't it? The first thing he's cared about and however knows

[00:37:00] what long and it's like, Nope, that didn't work.

[00:37:03] And then Herschel says, Beth needs to mourn her mother and should have done that weeks ago. But

[00:37:10] he robbed her of that. He says, I was a fool. My daughters deserve better than that. And I'm like,

[00:37:15] well, then put down the drink and go help your daughter.

[00:37:18] I know. I know. But isn't Scott Wilson so good? I remember this was when I started seeing Herschel

[00:37:25] is more than just a pious man. I was like, Oh, this is actually quite is more. Yeah,

[00:37:30] this is really good. It's very good in this episode.

[00:37:32] Yeah. And even in that moment, like I can understand where you're like,

[00:37:36] I, I fucked up because it is interesting. He realizes he was wrong. There's no cure there.

[00:37:43] They're undead. And you shot, you know, Shane, I guess was shooting in that and she just kept coming.

[00:37:49] And so he's like, I was a fool.

[00:37:52] Yeah, I was a fool Rick and you people saw that?

[00:37:54] Yeah. And so he's so down on himself that even when he's down on himself about not being

[00:38:00] there for his daughters in the way he should have. Now he could be but he's, he's I understand

[00:38:06] that feeling where you're just like, I'm, I'm despicable. Like I can't, I'm not the kind of

[00:38:11] person who does that. And you have to like, no snap out of it. Come on. Yeah, she does.

[00:38:16] I liked seeing him and Rick's power dynamic shift a bit and Rick being actually angry

[00:38:20] with Herschel at certain points as well. I was like, Oh, this is nice.

[00:38:23] Yeah. Well, what did he say? He goes, you need to be there for your daughters. And he goes,

[00:38:29] like you were for that little girl. And I'm like, dude,

[00:38:34] Oh, arsehole, like awful, awful.

[00:38:38] To be more like forceful.

[00:38:40] This is father son stuff like Rick and Herschel is proper. There's father son shit going on here.

[00:38:44] I'm like, but Rick could have if he was a lesser man could have been like, all right, then. All

[00:38:50] right, fuck you, dude. We're out of here. Let's go Glenn. Yeah, but no, he was angered. Yeah,

[00:38:54] but he used it to, you know, progress the situation.

[00:38:58] Yeah. He talks about cleaning up after you and then sort of death is death has always been there.

[00:39:04] And that's the kind of get over yourself talk of like, yeah, this is shit, but we got to live with

[00:39:08] it. And I know the two of them. Oh my God. So good together. So good. Glenn, I just love Glenn

[00:39:14] is quite gormless in this whole thing, but it really works for his character and for where he's

[00:39:19] at. And he goes on to kind of reflect on it in later episodes about like, I wasn't, I didn't act.

[00:39:25] I was a bit naive and things like that. And I think having the three of them is such a good

[00:39:28] dynamic here. Gormless just like kind of an observer who doesn't really know what to do.

[00:39:32] Is that what that means? A little bit and like naive with the guys. Like I think he let slip

[00:39:37] that there's a farm and he's did he say it because I watched it three times and I didn't see him,

[00:39:42] but it seems like they act like he does. Because they're like,

[00:39:46] I, I, I, because I even read that Glenn said it, but I couldn't find it. Listeners let me know.

[00:39:51] But I think what happened actually is they said they just put it out there and because no one

[00:39:57] denied it, they presumed it. Yeah. But I don't know. But you can see Glenn is definitely more

[00:40:03] willing to trust these guys. And yeah, I just think it's a it's like the three stages of

[00:40:08] jaded like Rick's very jaded. Herschel's becoming jaded and Glenn's just not quite jaded yet. And

[00:40:12] I just love that the three of them is a trio. It's really good. And Glenn. Yeah, I would say

[00:40:18] he never gets super jaded. I mean, I think the thing with the Saviors really advanced him a

[00:40:27] couple of notches, but he never got I mean, that's that's sort of the tragedy and live long

[00:40:33] enough to get as jaded as some of the other people did. Oh, and his kids a little dick. No,

[00:40:38] I'm joking. He's not my favorite. He's cute, but he's not my favorite.

[00:40:44] And last Shane as far as fretting, I guess I already talked about it, but he's just

[00:40:48] really in a tizzy about people not being on his side and he's reacting to that.

[00:40:55] I'm the right. I'm good. I'm the best. I did it. I did it. I'm awesome. It's like,

[00:40:59] no, you're not. I had a list of good character moments as well. We've covered most of them.

[00:41:04] One small touch that I really liked is Rick and Shane. We briefly delve into a procedural

[00:41:10] when they're in Herschel's room and Rick and Shane are like, so where did he where was he last seen?

[00:41:15] What clues do we have? And I'm like, oh yeah, they're in cop mode. I quite like that.

[00:41:19] Dale plants the idea about Otis to Laurie, which is a huge thing for her. Like this is her really

[00:41:28] Shane's not killer. Like she still believes that he's a good person. And the idea that Dale is kind

[00:41:34] of on the sideline, they're planting that idea and putting that seed of doubt in her head is

[00:41:38] really explosive. And he said exactly what happened. I think he killed Otis to sacrifice

[00:41:44] Otis to save himself. But there's some like gray area in this there, in my opinion, because

[00:41:50] I think if he hadn't done that, they both would have died and Carl would have also died.

[00:41:54] But it doesn't mean that Shane is good in all cases.

[00:41:58] And in Dale's morality, it's bad. Like for Dale, that's still killing a guy.

[00:42:06] Right. Or maybe you're probably right. Maybe if Dale knew the exact circumstances,

[00:42:12] you could get him to soften on it a little bit. But he sees

[00:42:15] He's never going to have that with Shane, is he?

[00:42:18] Yeah. He's looking for reasons to hate Shane. Thankfully, he doesn't have to look for.

[00:42:22] Yeah, he's got a bunch. And yeah, that was kind of the end of my character moments. I guess I've

[00:42:29] got unintentional humor. Not much to say other than Herschel saying he just quit drinking really

[00:42:34] made me laugh. He's like, I just quit. And then like five minutes later saying he could use a

[00:42:39] drink also really made me laugh. I'm quite fond of drunk Herschel. I'd forgotten that Tony pees

[00:42:45] in the bar and he lands in his own pee at the end, which made me laugh.

[00:42:49] Herschel, by the way, I think Scott Wilson, I hope it's okay to say this. He was fond of whiskey

[00:42:57] and I'm pretty sure Leanne who worked with Walker Stalker would every time Scott Wilson was one of

[00:43:04] the Walker Stalker guests would give him a bottle of whiskey as a gift at the beginning.

[00:43:08] I think if Scott Wilson is not sitting wherever he is in the afterlife with like a really good

[00:43:13] Scotch or bourbon on a porch, I don't I don't want to be in the world. I think that's where

[00:43:18] he needs to be. I also, yes, I've said Laurie and Daryl's interaction. I'd forgotten that

[00:43:25] Laurie opens with moving to the suburbs because Daryl's so far away from the farm. But yeah,

[00:43:30] your bitch went window shopping and olive oil really made me laugh. So yeah, those moments

[00:43:34] really, really cracked me up.

[00:43:36] I always wonder what actors think when there's a line delivered like that that's clearly based on

[00:43:41] their personal appearance, you know?

[00:43:43] But she so looks like Olive Oil!

[00:43:46] It's so distracting. It's like, oh, yeah,

[00:43:48] she is kind of lanky.

[00:43:51] They just had her start going, oh, oh!

[00:43:53] I know! Rick ripping open tins of spinach.

[00:43:58] I'd watch it. I'd watch it. All I have left really is the barn. The bar, not the barn.

[00:44:05] The bar. From the barn to the bar.

[00:44:06] Let me do one of my points and then we'll go to that, okay?

[00:44:09] Nah, I don't want to.

[00:44:10] You don't want to do it?

[00:44:11] No, you're not allowed. You're done. You're barred. No, go for it. Go for it.

[00:44:15] It's losing hope.

[00:44:18] So just the aftermath of Sophia having been in the fucking barn and Herschel's zombie family's dead.

[00:44:26] And so this is a bleak episode. Everyone is losing hope right in the aftermath,

[00:44:30] especially Carol and Beth. Carol had hope for Sophia. That's gone.

[00:44:35] Beth had hope for her mother, could be saved, gone.

[00:44:38] And then, yeah, there's the double trauma of her zombie mother grabbing at her.

[00:44:43] A little Department of Suspension of Disbelief. Why would her zombie mom just be laying there

[00:44:48] quiet if she hadn't already been shot in the brain? But whatever.

[00:44:51] Department of Suspension of Disbelief.

[00:44:54] Then Beth is catatonic and later we know she wants to kill herself. So that's really

[00:45:01] bleak. And the show really set up this typical thing of,

[00:45:08] oh, there's a problem, but they're working to solve it. Sophia went missing.

[00:45:15] And even the whole thing with Daryl, the whole Cherokee Rose episode,

[00:45:20] you're like, how could they not find her after that?

[00:45:24] And so setting that up and then just having her come out of that barn,

[00:45:29] it really was like, nope, that's not The Walking Dead. This show, we're going to put our characters

[00:45:33] through the ringer and then it's just going to keep amping it up and up and up and see

[00:45:37] what that does to their character. And this really sort of accentuated that.

[00:45:41] Oh my God. Iconic.

[00:45:43] And it really sets up the arc of the series of how do you respond to the super harsh situation?

[00:45:55] And it really, I thought, came to a great conclusion in The Ones Who Live, which if

[00:46:01] you want to hear why, watch the show, go back and listen to us talk about it. But

[00:46:04] it really was about how to respond to this kind of adversity. And we see even just within The

[00:46:09] Walking Dead, Rick gets so jaded, as you mentioned a minute ago, and get really calloused over to the

[00:46:17] point where he doesn't care about the lives of anyone except his people closest to him.

[00:46:22] And then he turns around and even the logo I noticed of The Walking Dead,

[00:46:28] every year it would get more and more like, what do you call it when it's something's

[00:46:34] decaying. And then when Angela Kang came in, that shifted to growth. And so I feel like

[00:46:42] that's what the whole series is, is loss of hope steadily until people started to bring it back and

[00:46:50] make a place where you could have a life. And the whole thing about, yeah, Herschel saying,

[00:46:56] there's no hope and you know it now like I do. But he was holding on to hope that he could save

[00:47:02] his loved ones that had turned. Now there's no hope for that. But there's still hope that they

[00:47:06] can survive and even beyond survival, make a life. And like you said, Rick said, nothing's changed.

[00:47:11] Death is death. It's always been that whether from a heart attack, cancer or Walker, what's

[00:47:14] the difference? Well, Rick doesn't realize is how much more adversity there's going to be

[00:47:18] that he's going to have to get over. But that is still the challenge to like,

[00:47:23] it's I think one of the hardest things in life is when you're you have something at a certain level

[00:47:31] and then you lose it, you drop down. It's almost easier to live with if you're just already at a

[00:47:38] lower point and that's your baseline like people who are in lesser developed countries can be

[00:47:45] happier. But if you are like a stockbroker and you lose all your money, you jump out a window,

[00:47:50] you know, it's like or even just the way the world is now like we feel like the world is

[00:47:55] declining in some ways. And so it can cause us to lose hope. But the challenge is to just

[00:48:01] take stock of where you are and figure out how to make the best of that. That's me on a soapbox

[00:48:06] today. But that's I think also kind of what the series is about. I think it's interesting as well

[00:48:11] because Peter asked me at the end of this episode, he's like, is this the first time that we see

[00:48:17] essentially evil Raiders? Is this the first time that we see people who are not willing to help

[00:48:22] or ultimately good? And it's interesting that comes at this juncture. Well,

[00:48:26] I know, but yeah, I mean, yeah, but in terms of an outside, yeah, an outside group with

[00:48:32] ill intentions who are there to harm our group. This is the start of that getting introduced.

[00:48:37] And I think there is a shift in the show at this point towards the threat is outside now.

[00:48:43] It's like it's not just the walkers. It's what the people will do.

[00:48:46] And that's one reason why it really stood out that scene in within the episode,

[00:48:51] within the series so far. Absolutely. Well, my final point is son of a bitch,

[00:48:55] you're alive. That's let's talk about it. Let's get into the scene. Dave and Tony,

[00:49:01] the scrawny looking douchebag. Yeah, these guys, they read. So I'd forgotten how kind of like,

[00:49:09] Oh, forget about it. Like urban city people. Like part of me was like, is this too much?

[00:49:15] Or is it just enough? I don't know. I think the guy that plays Dave in particular is really good

[00:49:20] in this scene, the way that he goes from, you know, if it had been just Dave, they might have

[00:49:26] had a fighting chance. I think Tony really fucked it for them. I think Tony pissing in the bloody

[00:49:32] bar and being a bit drunk and not really controlling the extent of the kind of people

[00:49:39] they actually were really fucked them. Dave does a lot of amazing kind of scoping things out,

[00:49:46] sussing out what's actually happening. He knows to do the platitudes, he knows how to

[00:49:52] be warm and a little bit charming, but he's also trying to figure out what was happening. But he

[00:49:56] gets he gets a bit too thirsty, doesn't he? Like he gets a bit too eager asking too many questions.

[00:50:03] Yeah, before ingratiating himself. And I think maybe when he said like he, they saw his gun.

[00:50:09] So he's like, Oh, let me just put it right on the table. And he says, I got it from a cop.

[00:50:14] I feel like that's testing to see if they're rough, like him. Because and then Rick says,

[00:50:23] I'm, I'm a cop. And he goes, Okay, recalibrate. And he says, Oh, but the cop is already dead.

[00:50:29] But I'm just like, if, if it wasn't testing for something, why even say I got it from a cop?

[00:50:35] Like, why put that out there? You're sort of like, yeah, suggesting that you killed a cop.

[00:50:41] Mm hmm. He saves it, he almost saves it with this one was already dead. But it's

[00:50:46] it is a step where you're like, yeah, yeah, like really, and I think Rick has probably met so many

[00:50:54] Daves and Tonys that he's a very excellent person to have in this particular interaction between the

[00:51:00] two of them. Herschel's kind of, I think Herschel's just a bit useless in this scene because he is

[00:51:06] drunk and overwhelmed, and so on and so forth. So seeing how they, the information that Rick

[00:51:13] garners from these guys is very interesting. And I wonder if we'll talk about it in the

[00:51:17] spoiler section about where they've been and where they've come from. But it escalates so well

[00:51:25] and so quietly. And that scene at the end, the kind of standoff with Rick looking in the mirror

[00:51:30] behind Dave and the quickness with which Rick turns to murdering these two guys is still shocking,

[00:51:40] even years on watching I still and you see Herschel being like, dang, when Rick does

[00:51:46] his quick reactions kind of save the day here.

[00:51:49] And Glenn sort of being like, wow, two people just died, but it had to happen. That's kind

[00:51:54] of what I was getting from him.

[00:51:55] Yeah. Glenn's like, what? Oh yeah, no, that makes sense. That tracks like, oh, it's nuts.

[00:52:02] How did you feel revisiting it? Was it as good as you remembered?

[00:52:05] Yeah, I love who's the actor that plays Dave? Michael Raymond James. He had been in True

[00:52:13] Blood. That's where I'd seen him before. It was Rene. But he, I agree with you. He was so good.

[00:52:22] He had this super chill vibe that I thought was charming, but a hint of menace. And yeah,

[00:52:27] like you said, too thirsty. And Tony just is like, he doesn't give a fuck. Yeah. Because he's like,

[00:52:34] you get the sense at all said and done that there with guys that are no good. And we kind of get

[00:52:39] that because we know later on what happens to but they're with a band, like a gang, let's call it.

[00:52:44] And Tony's like, we got to play nice to try to get in with these guys. But I don't care that. Fuck

[00:52:50] that. Yeah, let's just do it. He's kind of got a little bit of Shane energy. Like, let's just take

[00:52:55] over, you know, Shane would have done well with these guys. Yeah. And then when Tony pees,

[00:53:02] oh my god, it's so uncivilized. Also, to me, it felt like, like a dominance thing.

[00:53:10] Yeah, you know, yeah, like dogs and cats peeing on there.

[00:53:13] Yeah. Like I'm gonna do this right in front of you. That's how much respect I have for you.

[00:53:18] And that's like who I am. Yeah, yeah. But then what? Yeah, like Rick, especially he,

[00:53:24] you're right. He's had experiences. He knows how to read people. And, you know, when you're talking

[00:53:32] about whether Rick is built for this world, and did he do the right thing catering to Herschel as

[00:53:38] long as he did with those dangerous zombies right there, he was trying to befriend Herschel to get

[00:53:43] to a place where they could get rid of the threat and not have it blow up the way Shane did it.

[00:53:47] But Shane's just like, No, there's there are danger, just go for it. And, you know, even when

[00:53:52] Shane is yelling at Herschel at the beginning there, and Rick says, Hey, to him, they thought

[00:53:57] that this you massacred their family. And while that doesn't matter, that's not happened. But

[00:54:01] Rick's the type of person to have empathy, right? And you kind of can debate, well, is the situation

[00:54:07] serious enough where he shouldn't be that soft or whatever? I think it was good because he knew

[00:54:11] Herschel was a good guy. So he was trying to meet him on his own terms. But here, now we see,

[00:54:17] okay, if we thought maybe Rick was too soft. No, he is assessing these guys, he figures out very

[00:54:22] quickly, they are not good guys. And so he's absolutely Nope, I'm not going to tell you

[00:54:27] anything about us. You can't join us. And he even like when he said, you know, when Dave says,

[00:54:33] where should we go? And he goes, I hear Nebraska is nice. He knows he's being a smart ass. And

[00:54:38] he's forcing some kind of resolution to this either they're going to go away or they're going

[00:54:42] to challenge him. And he goes to pull out his gun and he's fucking Wild West boom, boom, boom,

[00:54:47] kills them both. Yeah. And you're like, okay, I just learned that Rick when it comes to it,

[00:54:52] he will act and do what needs to be done. And it just made me like I I, I, I'm the kind of person

[00:55:01] that wants to avoid violence whenever possible. But in this case, it was absolutely necessary.

[00:55:06] And I was like, yeah, it was even more necessary than I remembered. I remembered what the first

[00:55:11] time I watched it feeling really arbitrary. But I was like, Oh, no, they drew they were gonna kill

[00:55:16] him. We're gonna go for they were gonna kill them. So yeah, no, totally. Absolutely. 100%

[00:55:20] justifiable. Yeah, he could have even before that, like that is one thing like he could have

[00:55:26] just read the situation and been like, you guys need to get out of here right now. I don't like

[00:55:29] you. But he didn't do anything until he absolutely had to. But when he had to he did. Yeah, exactly.

[00:55:35] No top top. Top notch. Yeah, my perspective was so good. I remember loving that and watching it

[00:55:42] now it totally helped because you're it's just the way the tension rises. At first they say

[00:55:46] it's like a play. Yeah, it's like a well written just a two hander of like, I don't know. It's

[00:55:51] just really well done. Who wrote this episode? I should have looked this up. Oh, I don't know.

[00:55:55] Yeah. Let's look it up. Evan Riley, who is one of the early regular writers on the show. And I think

[00:56:04] we've had a lot of good episodes. And I wanted back when we were doing more interviews, I wanted

[00:56:09] to try to get him on but he was elusive. This is a good one. The writing strong. Yes. Very good.

[00:56:16] All right. I I had a point on you know, the whole built for this world concept and how

[00:56:22] Shane basically is arguing that Rick is not built for this world, but he is. And I just think

[00:56:29] after this episode, to me, it's clear. Yeah, Shane just is like a bomb that goes off and

[00:56:35] Rick tries to finesse it more. And I but when he needs to act, he does act violently. And so I feel

[00:56:44] like after this episode of like, no, Rick is more built for this world than Shane is. That's what I

[00:56:48] think. He's good. Well, he goes further. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's intense that Rick had to shoot

[00:56:56] a couple guys the same day he killed zombie Sophia. That's intense. Anyway, yeah. Do you want

[00:57:04] to go into notes? Yeah, sounds good. This episode, we start to see some of the death rituals being

[00:57:11] introduced the idea that we bury the ones we love. And I thought it was very nice that Andrea was

[00:57:16] covering Sophia in a scene. I thought that was actually quite a sweet moment. When they arrive

[00:57:22] in the town, Rick and Glenn, there's a horse and wagon on one of the shops. And it just gave me real

[00:57:27] Western vibes that I think play out in this episode with the shootout at the end. Yeah,

[00:57:32] the whole thing. Yeah, yeah. The bar even with the chandelier and dusty old West. Oh, it's a

[00:57:37] lovely bar. I was like, oh, and the final thing I'll say is the way they mix like the mundanity

[00:57:43] of death and the bigger questions in this episode is great. So we see T-Dog and Shane throwing bodies

[00:57:48] onto the pyre as Rick and Herschel are dealing with the situation at the bar and talking about

[00:57:54] life and death. And like the sun is setting and there's this beautiful light we see finally see

[00:57:59] how those flaming torches are made. We actually see the process of making them. It used to really bug

[00:58:03] me and lost that they turn up with these flaming torches with no indication of how anyone had made

[00:58:08] them and they were all very perfect. So we see T-Dog and Shane wrapping rags around sticks and

[00:58:15] setting fire to the bodies. And this all plays out against this, this conflict and

[00:58:21] the kind of bigger ideals that Rick and Herschel are talking about. And I looked up the closing

[00:58:27] music and it was the regulator by clutch, which I'd forgotten was I wondered if I know sometimes

[00:58:33] when things are syndicated on Netflix and things like that, the music gets changed, but I'm pretty

[00:58:38] sure the one I was watching is what aired with the episode. So yeah, it was good. It was a good end.

[00:58:46] Yep. All right. Let's see. Dave says he was a grunt stationed at four bending and told them

[00:58:56] the place was overrun. And I can't remember because now that they've found Sophia, you know,

[00:59:03] more or less they don't have any. The only reason they were staying there was to look for Sophia.

[00:59:07] Then they were going to go to Fort Benning and I can't remember why they stay after this. I don't

[00:59:12] know if it is because of what they tell them. Yeah. Dave said, but they believe them. These guys.

[00:59:19] Well, I think if the big, if the going was good at Fort Benning, they'd be staying there. I don't

[00:59:23] think they'd be out in the world if they didn't have a choice. Yeah, I guess you're right. And

[00:59:27] we learn later, I looked it up in season, I think for one of the savior guys, Mitch says also that

[00:59:34] it was overrun early on, that he was stationed there or something. Dave calls the zombies

[00:59:41] lame brains. And I was like, I could swear in one of the Romero zombie movies, they called them

[00:59:48] lame brains. I looked it up. It's not exactly that in the Tom Savini, 1990 night of the living dead

[00:59:55] remake, which I loved. It's one of my favorite zombie movies ever. The asshole character,

[01:00:02] Harry, who's always yelling at his wife. He calls the other people lame brains, you lame

[01:00:07] brains. Deep cut. I love it. Yeah. Oh, we know that because it's one of my favorite.

[01:00:13] Some of them was ever. Um, I think this is the first episode with Glenn Mazzara as showrunner.

[01:00:17] And I, we were like, oh, it's going to be good with, without Darabont and we were,

[01:00:24] I think the second half is better than the first half. In my opinion. Um, they show the windmill

[01:00:31] on the farm a lot. And I remember seeing it myself when we filmed there, it was pretty prominent.

[01:00:38] And, uh, I think we mentioned how they showed Rick looking at windmills in the ones who live.

[01:00:43] And I wonder if there's like a windmill thing, but, uh, then I was thinking, oh,

[01:00:50] maybe when he's looking at the windmills in the ones who live, he's thinking of Alexandria

[01:00:54] because there was a prominent windmill in Alexandria too. Cause we couldn't really figure

[01:00:59] as well that I don't think his spoilery for the ones who live. Um, they talk about,

[01:01:07] so we get a lot of broader context here about DC and the refugee camp Montgomery,

[01:01:11] the railway to Nebraska, Fort Benning being gone. They mentioned that they came from Philadelphia

[01:01:18] and we learn a lot more about Philadelphia and the ones who live. And I'm like,

[01:01:21] is it a retcon or just their story track with what we then learn?

[01:01:25] Let's talk about that at the end. Yeah. Okay. We can talk about what we learned about Philadelphia.

[01:01:30] Um, they have Shane dousing his head at the water pump.

[01:01:35] Always washing. Always be washing.

[01:01:37] Yeah. And like he had a shower at the CDC. He had a washing his head with water jugs on the

[01:01:44] freeway earlier this season. Now the water pump on the farm. I think it's to show metaphorically

[01:01:49] that he's a hothead, which Laurie calls him in this episode. He needs to cool it off all the time.

[01:01:53] He just sweats profusely from the scalp.

[01:01:58] Yeah. So only on the walking dead would your mama try to eat you?

[01:02:04] Only on the walking dead is someone pissing on the floor in the bar and not the worst thing

[01:02:08] that happens. I remember when I was in Boston, they have weird drinking rules there. Things

[01:02:18] you can't like buy liquor in certain stores and things close at certain times. And I think

[01:02:25] after a certain time, maybe midnight, you weren't allowed to serve alcohol or on certain days. I

[01:02:30] forget exactly. It was so long ago, but my friend knew of this Chinese food place downtown in a

[01:02:36] sketchy part of town where if you go in and you older order cold tea, they'll give you a teapot

[01:02:41] with beer in it. And um, so we went there and ordered it and it was so sketchy. And I went to

[01:02:45] the bathroom and I saw some dude just pissing in the sink in there. Oh God. All right. We gotta

[01:02:50] get out of here. Oh dude. Dude.

[01:02:53] I'll be a threat to untold numbers of citizens. People eat kills, get up and kill. Are they slow

[01:03:27] moving chief? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is a walking dead cast news

[01:03:33] update. All right. A couple things. First off, um, I wanted to mention that I think I already

[01:03:42] mentioned this last time, but first time in the rewatch, if you saw the series fallout on Amazon,

[01:03:48] it's great. It's dystopian, fun, dark, creative. Uh, it's great. I'd recommend watching it. And

[01:03:56] we did a single episode on it since they released all the episodes at once instead of going week to

[01:04:01] week. So we just did a one long three hour episode and it's on house podcast. It's me and Ben and our

[01:04:05] friend Doug. So, uh, yeah, check that out. It's great. It's a really good episode and it's a

[01:04:10] really good show. I endorse both. Oh, cool. I'm glad you liked it. The episode too. Uh,

[01:04:16] and also just while I'm talking about shows, uh, show guns and other popular show lately that

[01:04:22] people are into. And, um, we just also put out an episode on house podcast to ca about show gun or

[01:04:30] maybe that's coming up. I think that's coming up with Penny and, uh, some other people. So that's

[01:04:36] coming. Excellent. So AMC has a few submissions for considerations for the Emmys. They're just

[01:04:45] submissions, not nominations. You know, AMC saying, Hey, consider us, uh, the one,

[01:04:50] the ones who live was going to be submitted for outstanding limited or anthology series,

[01:04:55] but they were told they couldn't because for a series to be considered a limited series,

[01:04:59] the story has to be resolved within a season without any ongoing storylines. It seemed

[01:05:04] pretty resolved to me, but anyway, so the ones who live and the Daryl show, and I think

[01:05:10] dead city two are all going to be up for outstanding drama series, or at least that's

[01:05:16] what they, you know, they're submitting it and deny Greer and Andrew Lincoln for, and also,

[01:05:20] uh, Jeffrey Morgan and Norman Reedus for lead actor, lead actress, Clements poisey,

[01:05:28] who played Isabel for supporting actress, um, deny Greer for writing her episode.

[01:05:34] I wouldn't be surprised if she gets all the way to a norm for that.

[01:05:37] That would be cool.

[01:05:38] It'd be cool if she did.

[01:05:39] Yeah. And, uh, there's a whole bunch. I won't go through them all, but there's some technical

[01:05:44] ones, outstanding main title design for the Daryl show and dead city and the ones who live. Uh,

[01:05:50] I really love the title design. You know which one I like the most?

[01:05:55] Daryl.

[01:05:55] Yes. I really like that one.

[01:05:57] It was cool. It was very different. I enjoyed that a lot.

[01:06:01] So in all these years, the walking dead has only had 16 Emmy nominations and two wins

[01:06:07] across 177 episodes. No spinoffs have ever gotten any nominations. Can you guess which two Emmys

[01:06:13] the walking dead one? What would you guess?

[01:06:17] I feel like I knew this is definitely nothing for acting.

[01:06:21] I feel like it's something like sound design or prosthetics.

[01:06:24] It's prosthetic makeup. Both of them.

[01:06:26] Oh, both.

[01:06:27] Yeah. And 2011, 2012. So early on.

[01:06:30] Oh wow. Okay, cool. I mean, they did up the bar for that.

[01:06:34] Yeah. But I think also when something wins for something technical, like I think star

[01:06:39] wars has a bunch of those. It's like, yeah, it's not serious, but it's got good effects.

[01:06:45] It's that kind of attitude, you know?

[01:06:47] Right.

[01:06:48] So I doubt any of these will be nominated, but maybe some of the technical ones.

[01:06:54] Yeah.

[01:06:54] We'll see. We'll see.

[01:06:55] I hope so.

[01:06:55] The writing, it would be great if Danai Gurira got nominated for writing that episode.

[01:07:00] She deserves it. It was a great episode.

[01:07:02] I agree. Aside from this summer, there's still no word on exactly when Walking Dead,

[01:07:09] Daryl Dixon, The Book of Carol will premiere, but they are showing the first episode at Tribeca

[01:07:15] Film Festival on June 2nd, which is coming up quick. If the show starts really soon after that,

[01:07:22] then I'm afraid we might not make it through season two of the rewatch beforehand. And so

[01:07:28] I'm wondering if we need to, whether we should maybe double up a couple of weeks.

[01:07:33] I don't know. Maybe.

[01:07:34] I think we'll have to see what the timing is. But yeah, it would be a shame to not be on the

[01:07:38] ball with Daryl. So yeah.

[01:07:40] I mean, it would just fit so perfectly if we could just wrap up season two and go right into

[01:07:45] Daryl rather than have like two more episodes left. But we'll see.

[01:07:47] We'll see what happens.

[01:07:48] Be like, and we're back. Yeah.

[01:07:50] Whatever. And last, filming has begun in Worcester, Massachusetts for Dead City season two.

[01:07:55] So that's going right now.

[01:07:57] The city. Huh. Cool. Cool.

[01:08:00] Yeah, we had, I had put out, I think I mentioned it on the podcast too. There was a call for

[01:08:03] zombie extras in the, in Massachusetts.

[01:08:06] Oh, I remember that. Yeah.

[01:08:08] So I wonder if any, I know some listeners sent in, so I wonder if anybody got it. If you got it,

[01:08:14] let us know. Even if you want to email and tell us, but you're not allowed to say it publicly,

[01:08:18] I won't mention it on the podcast, but I'm curious.

[01:08:21] We just want to know.

[01:08:23] All right. That's it for the news. Now it's time for Listener Modes, Growns or Grunts.

[01:08:27] So Beth Nichols says, yay.

[01:08:35] Yay. People were glad we were back with the rewatch.

[01:08:37] Nevada Randall said, yay. I've been waiting for this.

[01:08:41] April Palmore Sullivan says, one of my favorite episodes. Such a turning point.

[01:08:45] I love rewatching with y'all. Oh, we love rewatching with you too, April.

[01:08:50] Jared Wilkie, who's an old friend of mine from high school says, I love this episode.

[01:08:54] This is the first one that really showed it was the living that were the real danger.

[01:08:59] That's kind of what you're saying. Yeah, I was on a panel with some Walking Dead actors.

[01:09:05] I forget who. And we had Q&A and somebody came up to the mic and he's like,

[01:09:10] yeah, I just want to say that I went to school with the moderator.

[01:09:14] Oh, no way. Who's that? Oh, hey, what's up?

[01:09:18] It was Timothy Olyphant.

[01:09:21] That'd be amazing. There was another time when I was doing a panel with the guy who plays Luke.

[01:09:29] Dan Fogler. Dan Fogler. And somebody came up and goes,

[01:09:33] oh, I just want to say I really like your podcast. And me and Dan both went, thank you.

[01:09:39] And then we looked at each other and we're like, oh, who are you talking about? And it was me.

[01:09:45] And Dan's like, oh, I got to listen to that. And then we ended up having him on. So it was great.

[01:09:48] You two could do. I think you two would be great co-hosts on something. The vibes when

[01:09:53] we interviewed him, I was like, ah, these guys, they're on the same wavelength here.

[01:09:58] That's awesome. He's a nice guy.

[01:10:02] Jacob Decker says, this is the epicenter of greatness, the group still in a battle

[01:10:06] of moral interest and keeping the group safe. I love this season. It will never be matched again.

[01:10:11] Oh, strong words, Jacob.

[01:10:13] I know a lot of people feel the same way. Gjo Putia says, I love the moral dilemma that came

[01:10:18] up here. The idea became a little stale later on in the series, but it was the first time I had been

[01:10:23] exposed to a show that presented it. And I love the show for it. I'm still torn on which I would

[01:10:27] choose. I hope I never have to. What is he talking about?

[01:10:31] I think maybe Randall coming up.

[01:10:35] Oh, because he's not here yet though.

[01:10:38] Gjo, write in, let us know. Elaborate. We'd love to hear it.

[01:10:39] Yeah, I don't know what moral dilemma you're talking about. Whether or not...

[01:10:43] Whether women should drive.

[01:10:44] Whether women should drive. Whether you should stop and pick up an arm if it falls out of your

[01:10:48] truck or just keep driving.

[01:10:50] Many. There are many. Leah Disley says, I wonder what you make of the Shane Carroll interaction.

[01:10:57] When he cleans her hands for her, it should appear to be a nice gesture, but I still read

[01:11:00] it as Shane desperately trying to win back some approval after the barn incident. He always tries

[01:11:05] to do the right thing, but with the wrong intentions. And that's another smaller example.

[01:11:09] I think we covered that Leah, but thank you. Hang on. Is it Leah-y?

[01:11:14] I don't know.

[01:11:15] I think I've read your name wrong. I'm so sorry. Leah-y or Leahy Disley. Yeah,

[01:11:20] I think we reached the same point as you, to be honest. I think you're right.

[01:11:24] Brad Holt says, this is such a great episode. I'd probably put it in my top 10. The follow-up to

[01:11:30] that shocking midseason finale had to be good and they knocked it out of the park. I watched it

[01:11:34] twice for this rewatch and listened to the audio commentary the second time. It was great hearing

[01:11:39] Scott Wilson, Steven Yeun, Glenn Mazzara, and Evan Riley discuss the behind the scenes stuff. Oh,

[01:11:45] God. You're like DVD extras, I guess. That's cool.

[01:11:49] Oh, I need to do that.

[01:11:50] Cool note, go back and watch the funeral shot again. They reveal that Herschel

[01:11:54] was in a digitally added suit.

[01:11:57] Oh, no way. I remember thinking the suit was really striking. I was like, oh, he dressed up

[01:12:03] digitally. Our friend Jennifer McGinley says, probably my favorite episode. I hear Nebraska's

[01:12:08] nice. Fell in love with Rick when he blew Tony and Dave away. Only had eyes for Daryl until

[01:12:13] this episode, but that was just so sexy. And Andrew Lincoln acting. Wow. Always loved how

[01:12:19] Herschel was on the bevy all day long and then ding, immediately sober. Should have left poor

[01:12:23] Randall there to die instead of ripping him off the fence to endure all sorts of torture before

[01:12:27] the inevitable. I've watched Nebraska so many times, but yep, I'll watch it again in time for

[01:12:32] the podcast. Not a problem. Thank you, Jennifer.

[01:12:36] She's watching ahead too, right? Because Randall was not in this episode, right?

[01:12:40] No, I think this is the bit where stuff starts to merge. Like, I find it quite difficult. I was

[01:12:44] like, where does this episode end? I thought it ended with them coming in and going,

[01:12:48] holy shit, you're alive. But then I was like, oh no, it goes on. It ends with the shit. Yeah.

[01:12:52] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gemma Hall says, I love this episode. Mr. We don't kill the living breaks his

[01:12:58] rule here. Bang, bang. He shot me down. Bang, bang. I do understand why he did it though. Yeah,

[01:13:03] totally. Those men were clearly a threat and they wanted the location of Herschel's farm.

[01:13:08] Well, they were also just going to kill them. A shout out to Renee from Two Blood. I remember

[01:13:13] watching this one for the first time and being so on edge. The tension builds wonderfully until

[01:13:17] Rick loses his patience. Such a good episode too. Straight after the barn reveal too, as you can

[01:13:22] see Herschel's sadness and pain and how much Rick and Glenn care to bring him home. I think Laurie

[01:13:27] flips the car in this one too. Oh dear. She's going from memory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Danielle

[01:13:33] Dementio says, OMG, why haven't they started using simple knives yet? The trauma they put Beth

[01:13:38] through in this episode when she was trying to say goodbye to her mother. And I have to say,

[01:13:42] I appreciate how Maggie stood up to Shane when he was in Herschel's face. Yeah, he got slapped.

[01:13:47] Scott Wilson hosted an acting masterclass in this episode. I love how Rick and Herschel are

[01:13:51] on to Dave and Tony so quickly and Glenn takes a few extra minutes to pick up on the tension.

[01:13:56] Dave is actually one of my favorite villains in the whole series, even though his role is so brief.

[01:14:00] He's just a snake hiding behind a charming smile. I think this was the episode that really made me

[01:14:05] sit up and take notice of Andrew Lincoln. Is it weird that it's crazy hot when he shoots Dave and

[01:14:09] Tony? I think Jason would say no. Like, yeah, absolutely. This week's What If. What if Dale

[01:14:19] had shot and killed Shane when he had the chance? Looking forward to the podcast.

[01:14:24] I mean, Dale wouldn't do that. Dale would never. Those eyebrows could not.

[01:14:31] He only shoots nasty looks. What did you say? Dave's one of her favorite villains.

[01:14:37] I hadn't thought about this before, but it kind of reminds me of Gareth in that way.

[01:14:41] You just got a little bit and it was all good. And maybe if he'd gone on a little bit longer,

[01:14:46] maybe it wouldn't. You know, sometimes it doesn't live up to it or whatever you would have. But

[01:14:52] when you're left wanting more, it's like, yeah, I think there's a bit of

[01:14:56] Negan in him as well, just in terms of the charmingness at the first glimpse,

[01:15:02] but not knowing the level of the brutality under it. I like that.

[01:15:05] But less like more subtle and like human where Negan's like, yeah, exactly. Just that kind of

[01:15:11] yeah, the same kind of tools but deployed in a different way. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[01:15:16] Andy Fisher says, great episode. I love the incredulous look Herschel gives Rick after he

[01:15:22] dispatches the two thugs in the bar and also the side eye Rick gives the thug when he nonchalantly

[01:15:27] pees in the corner of the bar. Reminds me of what Rick says at Terminus when everyone has

[01:15:30] seemingly given up hope. No, they're going to feel really stupid when they find out that they're

[01:15:35] well, he said screwing screwing with the wrong people.

[01:15:38] Bring back the fucking cup.

[01:15:43] Such wonderful acting and everything looks hot and drippy like a Georgia summer.

[01:15:47] The show just kept getting better and better this season. The death of Sophia is still shocking.

[01:15:52] The show hit a few rough patches in the second season with the Randall character,

[01:15:56] but the wonderfully nuanced main characters in the competing agendas of Rick and Shane and the

[01:16:01] butting of heads and the sadness and the grief and the drama and the high stakes of everything.

[01:16:05] Just brilliant. Jason and Lucy, can you share your thoughts on Andrea and Laurie? I read from

[01:16:11] so many fans how much they hated these characters and it always puzzled me. I feel they were both

[01:16:15] very well acted and very realistic and very compelling except the part about Andrea not

[01:16:20] stopping the governor.

[01:16:23] I, I struggled with this episode in particular watching Andrea and I think there is something

[01:16:28] Laurie Holden does in her performance that is really smug that I just, it just rubs me the

[01:16:35] wrong way and I don't want to hate on a good actress, a good actor, sorry, a strong female

[01:16:43] character, but they just never quite hit the right tone with Andrea. I don't know. I don't

[01:16:48] know what it was. I just, I can never quite put my finger on it.

[01:16:51] Yeah. Sometimes you just don't like someone's vibe, right?

[01:16:53] Yeah, I think that's it. I think she comes off as either smug or condescending or there's

[01:16:58] something there that I just find very unlikable with Laurie. I blame the writing a little bit

[01:17:03] more because I think her motivations get a bit muddled up.

[01:17:06] Yeah, but she's also just always, she's almost always like when she's doing something it's

[01:17:13] against someone else. Like you're not this, that no shut up. Yes. You know,

[01:17:18] and that's not too likable either in my opinion.

[01:17:22] Yeah, I think I would, I'm trying to be more open minded about it on the rewatch,

[01:17:26] particularly with Laurie, but Andrea this episode she just, I just wanted to throw

[01:17:30] something at her.

[01:17:31] But I, yeah, I was like, I'm trying to be more open minded too. So I was just sort of like,

[01:17:35] I had a whole point about, you know, looking at what Andrea was doing and I think all the

[01:17:39] things she was doing were good and that's up, but it's just that attitude.

[01:17:43] Yeah, there's a smugness there that I'm just like,

[01:17:47] um, Rachel Teal Edwards says so many incredible character building moments in this episode.

[01:17:52] This is one of my favorite episodes of the series.

[01:17:55] Shane helping car wash her hands is actually a really honest, vulnerable, sweet moment.

[01:17:59] Maybe the last bit of humanity we see in Shane. It softened me to him and his brashness and

[01:18:03] arrogance from last week, but also Maggie slapping him at the beginning of the episode

[01:18:08] is one of my favorite moments. Maybe that's what woke him up even briefly.

[01:18:12] Laurie spitting at Darryl, how can you be so selfish? I am just so filled with hatred

[01:18:16] for her in that moment. She's so detestable in this episode. Nothing she does makes a

[01:18:20] lick of sense. I kind of, I think saying to Darryl, how can you be so selfish was a bit

[01:18:24] of a stretch to be honest. Rachel goes on sweet, innocent Glenn at the bar with Dave

[01:18:29] and Tony completely without guile and unable to sense it in others, at least at this point,

[01:18:34] even though they're clearly terrible. This was probably a solid life lesson for him.

[01:18:38] Dave even sensed his naivety, addressing Glenn in an attempt to get more information out of him

[01:18:42] before Rick interrupts. We've said enough. Oh, so tense. So good. The dynamic between

[01:18:49] Herschel, you people are like a play and Rick. It's not about what we believe anymore is

[01:18:54] absolutely delicious. Watching them as they both separately, as they are both separately

[01:18:59] coming to grips with the drastic ways in which they're being forced to change to adapt to the

[01:19:03] darkness of this world without hope and even more delicious watching Rick take an abrupt

[01:19:07] and shocking step into that darkness. A big step on his journey to becoming the Rick Grimes we all

[01:19:12] know and love every single moment of every scene in the bar is perfection. Rachel, what a great email.

[01:19:19] Yeah. And that when he says to Herschel, it's not about what we believe anymore. We have to,

[01:19:24] you know, be strong for everybody at home just to kind of give them a reason to go on. That just

[01:19:31] totally fits with my thing about him. He just feels responsible for everyone else at the expense of

[01:19:35] his own sanity, safety, whatever it is. Okay. That's great. Rachel Dina says, hello. I allow

[01:19:44] myself one favorite episode for season for season two. It's Nebraska. I'll try to keep it as short

[01:19:49] as I can. However, be warned that when we get to season four, episode 12, still you will receive

[01:19:55] a 10 page treatise. It's my favorite hour of television, even surpassing brace yourselves.

[01:20:01] Any episode of the Smurfs. I don't remember still. Darrell and Beth drink moonshine. Oh,

[01:20:07] okay. Good. All right. Interesting. I wouldn't have picked that, but I'm looking forward to the

[01:20:11] treatise. She says, I can't, I can't pinpoint why Nebraska speaks to me maybe because it reminds me

[01:20:17] of watching Sheriff Kane and high noon with my dad. Ah, and possibly because I love Springsteen's

[01:20:23] Nebraska album, specifically the song highway patrolman. Oh yeah. That song Nebraska is good

[01:20:28] too. I forgot about that. Yeah. To the point of the rewatch, a theme of this episode is guilt.

[01:20:33] And this emotion offers a peek into each character. The highlights for me, Herschel's grief,

[01:20:39] shaken faith and outburst at Rick brings his admittance of guilt that he allowed himself to be

[01:20:43] persuaded by false hope. This is a key moment for Herschel. Rick may have led him out of despair,

[01:20:48] but Herschel strength of character is cemented here. He's very self-aware can listen to reason

[01:20:53] and quickly reestablishes his inner strength and resolve. Oh, I love that. That's good. Yeah. Cause

[01:20:57] he yeah, after this, we love Herschel and later seasons more. Oh yeah. Andrea, she holds some

[01:21:03] remorse about the mob attack and its subsequent devastation and is honorable enough to admit

[01:21:07] that she's partially to blame. She and Lori jolt the men from their stupor. We bury our dead.

[01:21:13] I don't know. I don't get that she shows remorse and yeah, I don't know if I'm with on the same

[01:21:20] wavelength as Dina here, but interesting. I mean, she's definitely trying to be respectful about it,

[01:21:26] which is good. Shout out to the women in the episode, Maggie slapping raging bull Shane,

[01:21:31] Lori directing the group to tend to the dead and picking up shovel to help. Oh, did she help? I

[01:21:36] didn't even see that. And Andrea killing Beth's mother when none of the men had the sense to do

[01:21:40] so. Yep. Let us not mention Carol who not only looks at the flowers, but tears them to pieces.

[01:21:45] I mean, you can't blame her for being upset. I don't begrudge anything she did. Darrell carries

[01:21:52] guilt throughout the whole series. He has a martyr complex. Carol calls him out on this and

[01:21:57] season 10's find me. She says, you don't have to save everyone, Darrell. He couldn't save Sophia.

[01:22:02] He can't console Carol. He retreats back into anger and isolation. And here's where my good

[01:22:08] will towards Lori ends. The lady of the manor is back. She fails to see the Darrell suffering

[01:22:14] to an orders. I need you to do this. Why are you so selfish? Hello, Lori, look in the mirror.

[01:22:19] Well, that's a good point. Yes. Also, do kids today even know who olive oil is?

[01:22:25] I mean, probably not unless she's a tick tock influencer.

[01:22:31] Does Shane feel guilt? His anger boils over and he comes close to sucking an old man

[01:22:35] and bullies another old man. But his anger masking guilt for numerous crimes,

[01:22:39] his affair with Lori, aiming a gun at Rick Otis, the barn reveal falling to his knees and washing

[01:22:45] Carol's hands indicate some remorse. He says, everyone blames me as if seeking her forgiveness.

[01:22:50] Still, I don't want to believe that this tender, beautiful moment is guilt. I hope it's his true

[01:22:54] self peeking through. See, I don't even know if it's guilt. I think it's more just like,

[01:23:02] I'm good. Love me. Yeah. Like he, I think he's steadfast and that he's doing things correctly.

[01:23:10] And he's just upset that other people aren't seeing it circling back to our modern day.

[01:23:16] Sheriff will cane our Rick from the moment when he bluntly tells Herschel his true feelings.

[01:23:20] And he finally stopped straddling the line, trying to appease everyone else.

[01:23:23] The self-insuredness we saw at the very start of the pilot returns with calm and a sense of

[01:23:28] lawfulness. He shoots Dave and Tony stepping back into his officer boots. Finally, Rick takes ownership

[01:23:34] of the leader title that everyone else has put on him while he's, he's always telling everyone what

[01:23:39] to do, but okay. He'll waver of course, but this is the turning point. No matter that Dave's lying

[01:23:45] about how they've all done very bad things for shadows, Rick's future self. Yeah. Cause right now

[01:23:50] if Rick's thinking, I just shot a little girl zombie, but he's not like, ah, I just bit a

[01:23:54] guy's throat out or anything like that or killed a bunch of people in their sleep.

[01:23:59] For shadows, Rick's future self for now, he's an officer of the law protector of the people.

[01:24:03] Deputy Herschel at his side. I promise my next missive will be very, very short. Please forgive

[01:24:08] me fellows at heads. I have guilt for the length of this letter and if you were here, I would wash

[01:24:12] your hands. Dina. Oh, Dina never apologize. Your letters are always brilliant. Yeah. That's cool.

[01:24:19] Just call in sometime too, if you feel like it. Absolutely. Speaking of calls here, we have two

[01:24:23] calls. Here's Carly in Santa Fe. Cool. Hello, Jason and Lucy. This is Carly in Santa Fe.

[01:24:30] And I wanted to mention this one moment that stood out in my rewatch of Nebraska when Rick

[01:24:38] is talking to Herschel in the bar about hope and he says, we have to keep going for the people we

[01:24:47] love even if we have no hope ourselves. Something like that. I just thought that was really

[01:24:54] poignant and sad. You know, I think this episode is a turning point for a lot of the characters

[01:25:02] and there are a lot that I wanted to talk to you about, but I'll just stick with

[01:25:05] Rick, you know, recognizing that he's really taking leadership of the group and that

[01:25:12] responsibility is weighing on him and he has lost all hope that the world is worth living in anymore.

[01:25:21] And it's just very, very sad. Rick has, I don't know. I feel like he still has some hope.

[01:25:32] He's not fully hopeless yet, but I think there's that line where Herschel says he could see it in

[01:25:39] Rick's face too. Yeah. And he's saying even if we do lose hope, we need to basically fake it

[01:25:44] for everyone else. Yeah, fake it till you make it. But you're right. Yeah. Herschel mentioned

[01:25:49] he noticed the difference. All right. Thanks, Carly. I hope you call in again. Here's Alex Kruger.

[01:25:56] Hey all, Alex Kruger leaving feedback for Walking Dead season two, episode eight, Nebraska.

[01:26:01] What an appropriate episode to dive back in with this rewatch. This is one of my favorite season two

[01:26:06] episodes because of a special cameo, but we'll get there. If anyone gets a pass for returning

[01:26:11] to the bottle after 22 years of sobriety, it's Herschel and damned if it isn't easy to understand

[01:26:16] why he feels the way he does this episode. The last shred of hope he had for his world

[01:26:20] returning to normalcy has gone in a flash and the despair horizon finally starts to set in for him.

[01:26:25] The fact that he has his mini breakdown and quits drinking in the same day does help show his

[01:26:30] moral fiber. And I love the little bond that's starting to really develop between him and Rick.

[01:26:35] I couldn't help but chuckle to myself when I realized that Laurie clearly is Carl's mother,

[01:26:40] not because of any shared looks or mannerisms, but for the simple fact that Laurie makes a

[01:26:44] completely boneheaded decision to go off on her own looking for Rick without telling anyone where

[01:26:48] she is going or that she is leaving or anything during a zombie apocalypse in unfamiliar territory.

[01:26:54] I mean, how many times have we called Carl out for doing this exact thing? Like mother, like son.

[01:27:00] Full disclosure, I did not wait with you guys to finish the series again when you took a break.

[01:27:04] I plowed right along and finished again anyways. I have no regrets. But it is crazy to see Daryl

[01:27:10] and Carol and even Rick this way when I have the benefit of having just seen their story

[01:27:14] arcs grow mature over 11 more seasons when accounting for the spinoffs.

[01:27:19] Dave is such a gross, disgusting dude, and it's amazing he lasted as long as he did. And as a

[01:27:25] Pennsylvania and major Philadelphia Phillies fan, I always hated how vile and disgusting these guys

[01:27:30] were, even if they would fit in at Philadelphia Eagles tailgate. I wonder if they escaped Philly

[01:27:36] before or after Okafor's stand in the timeline. I'll take that. But really, like I said, I want

[01:27:42] to talk about the amazing cameo by the infamous Michael Raymond James as Tony. I was first

[01:27:47] introduced to our dear old Tony from Philly while watching the TV show Once Upon a Time

[01:27:52] as the grown up version of Rumpelstiltskin's son, Bay Belfire. He was charming as hell

[01:27:56] and extremely likable and lovable. His death. Spoiler, I don't know happened in 2014. There has

[01:28:03] to be a statute of limitations on that stuff, right? Was so heartbreaking, and you really grew

[01:28:07] to appreciate the actor. The first time I saw the show, I was floored when he popped up on the

[01:28:12] screen. Even though he's clearly a dime store bad guy, I was still charmed by him, especially when

[01:28:18] contrasted to the series is first rapey Davey. Rest in peace, Tony, but first rule the apocalypse

[01:28:23] never drawn the dictator. Keep up the great work team. Now on to trigger finger.

[01:28:29] Yay, Alex, your voicemails are always so well produced.

[01:28:36] Yeah, he wrote back to me and told me he was on the Wilhelm podcast with Ben. So if you want to

[01:28:44] hear more of Alex, check out Wilhelm. Excellent for that. And he was also on an episode of

[01:28:50] the Ted Lasso revisited podcast. Oh, wonderful with Kristen and Ben.

[01:28:56] Yeah, and he started a Phillies baseball podcast with a friend there five episodes in. He didn't

[01:29:01] say the name of it. So Alex sent in let us know. Yeah. All right. That is our show episode 579.

[01:29:13] Thanks so much for listening. Everybody great to be back with the rewatch. So good. Next episode

[01:29:19] Walking Dead season two, episode nine trigger finger. If you want to write in or leave us a

[01:29:23] voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcast.com. And while

[01:29:28] you're there, check out some of our other podcasts like Mark and Jamie are covering the Sandman

[01:29:33] spin off dead boy detective. So if you're in Oh, cool. Check that out. This episode is made

[01:29:39] possible by Patreon supporters like Elissa Patterson who pledged their support at patreon.com

[01:29:44] slash Jason cabassi. So thank you so much to Elissa. I think Elissa is the like Lego Queen.

[01:29:50] Next episode of our Patreon exclusive podcast, the Zed head show will be me and a couple others

[01:29:57] talking about our favorite modern directors. So I'm excited about that. Stay tuned after the sign

[01:30:04] off here for some spoiler yourself. But for now, that's it. That is our show. Thanks for listening.

[01:30:09] Don't get bit Jacob Decker. Okay, so we're talking about stuff that we decided to leave

[01:30:16] to the end in case for people who hadn't seen the ones who live or the other spin offs yet. So

[01:30:20] if you haven't seen those and you don't want any spoilers, then you should probably not listen to

[01:30:24] this. I have a letter here from someone who just went by l a message. I mean, it says Hello,

[01:30:31] everyone. I've never written in before and thought someone else would point out why RJ said I believe

[01:30:36] during the meeting with Rick. I believe actually, I'm convinced that it's simply a silly and kitschy

[01:30:42] reference to the Japanese inscription believe a little longer on the images of Michonne and

[01:30:47] Judith and Rick's phones. Hasn't the artist himself said something like believe a little

[01:30:50] longer to Michonne? RJ would have no reason to reference these lines, of course. Well,

[01:30:54] Kimple. I think that's right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So I'm glad you read that. Yeah,

[01:31:02] I felt like there's something that they were talking about. Yeah, there's something that

[01:31:05] we're not quite hitting on the head here. Yeah. We were at we a bus went past yesterday and had

[01:31:11] Kaylee Fleming on the side of it because of if the film that she's in that's coming up, I was like,

[01:31:17] when's that coming out? It seems like I think it's a couple weeks. So yeah, cool. What else?

[01:31:25] Um, yeah, essentially, Philadelphia does what they tell us about Philadelphia here

[01:31:31] contradict what we learned in the ones who live? Yeah, they said damn shit show that was and we

[01:31:36] know from the ones who live that Okafor was going to bomb Philadelphia but decided not to

[01:31:42] and instead bombed some a phalanx of Navy soldiers or something that presumably were going to go in.

[01:31:49] So we know there was explosions going off. And so maybe I could see that Dave and Tony maybe just

[01:31:56] left in the turmoil and didn't stay long enough to realize that actually it was going to be cordoned

[01:32:01] off and be a nice place to live, right? Yeah. Or they were never within. Yeah,

[01:32:06] there were only a couple hundred thousand people there. But Philly has a population of

[01:32:10] much more than that, at least a couple million or something.

[01:32:14] It was fun to have that reference. I was like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, because I had just been thinking of

[01:32:20] the Nebraska reference. Because they said that trains from somewhere have been going into Nebraska,

[01:32:30] Montgomery, Montgomery, Alabama. Okay. And because of low population and lots of guns. And we know

[01:32:38] that Omaha was a settlement in Nebraska with 90,000 people. But I don't know if those two things are

[01:32:45] related. This is a they have heard a lot of rumors. We don't know if they're actually really

[01:32:49] that's cool. I'd missed that one. Yeah. Oh, I love that world building. And yeah, I guess that's it.

[01:32:57] That's it for spoilers, I think. Bye!