12: "What Might Be" (The Wheel of Time S2E3)
The Wheel of Time PodcastSeptember 16, 202301:40:5192.34 MB

12: "What Might Be" (The Wheel of Time S2E3)

At long last, our coverage of Episode 3! Apologies for the delay, but we are almost caught up! This was quite a dense episode, showing development on a lot of fronts, but can we just give a golf-clap for a heck of a performance by Zoë Robbins? Nynaeve went through a lot here, and we want to apologize up front for the fruity language, we were emotionally put through the ringer as well. Join Greg and Veronica as they delve deep into the ter'angreal and pull out the dark thoughts and fears they buried deep!

Let us know what you think of the next episode and we’ll read or play it on the show!

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[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Greg. And I'm Veronica. And this is The Wheel of Time Podcast. And this week we'll be covering The Wheel of Time, season two, episode three, What Might Be. All right, Veronica, what insightful stuff did Amazon have for us in their summary?

[00:00:42] All right, so this week they said, Nainé faces her greatest fears. Rand seeks guidance on his powers from an unexpected source. Boy, howdy. I mean, I don't get me wrong, they do get the, you

[00:00:58] know, like the brief part of this. Well done. They're certainly brief. Might have missed a couple of things, but you know, I guess that happens. How did you feel like in general about this episode?

[00:01:14] I really liked it. I liked that we focused, you know, I felt like a little more focused in on some particular character storylines and it left a couple big reveals. And I'm excited to pretty

[00:01:30] much after we get done with the podcast go watch the next episode. So that's always a good sign. Oh, no, I hear you. That's, I was wondering if I'd be able to make it to stay up late enough

[00:01:42] to watch the next episode tonight. I'm gonna power through. At least get the first one so that we can record for that one soon and then get on a regular schedule. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. There were,

[00:01:58] and as a book reader, there were some differences in this. Some of the things is that we saw visuals of which were only existing in my brain. Seeing them here was really cool. And sometimes it was a very

[00:02:15] different take than what I was, you know, what was in my head to begin with. But I did really enjoy this. This is a little bit deeper. This is, I would say the deepest episode that we've covered

[00:02:29] this season so far. I feel like we're going to have a lot to talk about throughout the next you know, hour or hour and a half. Absolutely. All right. So after last week and springing it

[00:02:43] on Veronica, you know, at the last second literally, I decided to instill a new segment here. All right. So we can call it non-book readers, three questions or Veronica's three questions or whatever. And kind of my thought process was if you saw something, you're just like,

[00:03:00] I don't know what the hell is going on with this? What's up with that? And if I felt like there was something to explain, then I could and we could talk a little bit more deeply in depth about it.

[00:03:11] Or I could say, you know what, it's, I think it's important enough to to leave it alone and reveal, let them reveal it to us as they as they deem fit. So Veronica, what do you got? What's your first question? All right. So this is one where I'm

[00:03:26] not sure if this is something that I should know from last season, but I felt like if I can't remember, it might just be something other watchers want a reminder of. So can you explain

[00:03:38] to me the differences in the path between a wisdom and an eyes to die? I just realized that sort of watching some of the show this week that I was less certain about what the differences were

[00:03:55] other than they can both channel. Do they all go chain, go train at the White Tower? Okay. I think that's that is a good question. And I think it's a good question because specifically in this episode they addressed, or I think maybe it was actually last episode,

[00:04:16] it's not that the you don't listen to the wind, the wind listens to you. Each village has what we would call just a wisdom. So a wisdom is literally just the we'll just say the village healer, whether they use it's their trained in first aid or

[00:04:40] the trained and like herbs and I'm not going to say old wives remedies, but like it's that's kind of what it is. Right? So they are the town healer. That's they are the wisdom and the town doctor, medical person or whatever the case is.

[00:05:00] So if someone breaks their arm, you take them to the wisdom. If you know when a girl begins menstruating, oh, well, if the mother hasn't you know gone through all that stuff with them, you take him to the wisdom and

[00:05:16] typically they birth babies, we'll just say like a medical and spiritual leader in the community. So typically the wisdoms are older and not naive specifically, you know, I think Moiraine in the first episode of the like in the pilot Moiraine talked about her only being 25 or 26

[00:05:39] and people saying that she's too young for this job. And she's like, no, I've earned it and she's like, oh, I believe you. So it's not that every wisdom can channel but wisdoms some wisdom like they sometimes oh well, you know, sometimes they bullshit their way through

[00:05:58] it right? They say, oh yeah, I can feel changes coming on the wind. But if you were looking to find people who could or women who could channel, wisdoms would not be a bad place to start.

[00:06:12] Okay, that makes sense. So there's yeah, sometimes an overlap with the wisdoms that can channel but you don't need to be able to inherently be able to channel to become a wisdom. Absolutely. Okay, that makes sense. Question two, question two somewhat related again just trying to think through

[00:06:34] you know all of the people that can access the one power and channel and thinking this episode specifically about Rand and how much he's struggling to control it. What happens if you're a man and you realize you can channel? Are you intended to go

[00:06:52] turn yourself over to the eye said I so they can sever you from that or as a man discovering you could do that, maybe you're not terribly powerful but what are your

[00:07:03] options? So that's another good question. So the options are as many as you have humans in that world. I know that's very, very vague but it's not a matter of hey, you know, oh, it turns out

[00:07:24] we'll just say right for example if you were born left handed, right? If you were born left handed then you have a different skill set than someone with right hand or who is right handed,

[00:07:41] right? If they have baseball there, you hit from the left side of the plate or I guess from the right side of the plate. If you can throw a ball, if you're firing a bow

[00:07:56] and arrow, bows are typically made to cater to one side or the other. This is obviously just a broad example but just because you're born left handed, there's not like protocol, oh,

[00:08:17] if you're left handed well that's illegal and you can't do this or whatever. I think that the idea is that it's going to reveal itself and then when people start hearing or spreading stories

[00:08:36] about oh, so what about the witches right back in Salem in Massachusetts? Oh, there are witches because they knew what was going to happen or they put a spell on me or whatever. What happens is that

[00:08:56] odd things happen and then people start to talk and then you contact the authorities and sometimes you, oh hey, we have to protect them as our family member like Tom. Tom talked about his nephew who Owen I believe who could channel and he started hearing voices and

[00:09:22] they tried to hide it but then by the time Tom got back to him, the red a-jah had found him and gentled him. So it's not so much an option, it's more like hey, am I able to hide it? And because

[00:09:41] the madness does start to like the dark ones taint does affect you the more that you touch the source, am I going to be able to hide the fact that this is something that I can do

[00:09:58] if I run into trouble? Like am I utilizing a thing, you know, a shield of air if there's an arrow coming towards me and the matter of hiding it because it really is to protect yourself.

[00:10:20] You know what I mean? It's to protect yourself from hey, they want to cut me off from this thing that is powerful and it helps me be a better version of whoever I am or at least a more powerful

[00:10:33] one. So I think that it's a matter of who gets caught and how long they can hide it before but then you also have people like Loghain, right? So Loghain very specifically discovered

[00:10:54] that he could channel and then maybe started hearing voices in his head that were telling him hey, do this. You're the dragon. It's your job to fight the dark one. This is the best way to

[00:11:06] go about doing it. And then he can resist, right? So we saw when Loghain was introduced, there was someone saying hey, just kill him. Talk about the king of Gildong. Just kill him. And he didn't. He was like no, there's always a place at my side for people

[00:11:25] willing to join. So does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, I guess I was just still wondering if you're a young man who discovers you have this power, you don't really want it.

[00:11:40] You don't want to have to hide it or like... You just want to be normal, right? Yeah, like can you just go to the ice and die and say can you just cut this off so I can go live my

[00:11:51] life? So unfortunately it is. It absolutely is an option but one of the things that is more apparent in the books than is in the show is that... And I don't think there's any kind of spoiler or

[00:12:06] anything but whenever they, at least in the book, whenever they take hold of the source, right? They embrace the source to start to channel it, it makes the world brighter. It enhances your senses.

[00:12:22] It makes things smell more sharply. It makes you be able to concentrate better. It basically amplifies your senses so that you are experiencing a more intense version of the world. And to have that taken away, so it's kind of what they were talking about,

[00:12:45] when Varen and Adelaide was talking about last episode or two episodes ago, what Moraine was missing was that, hey, you want to touch it. You want to hold it because it makes you feel better. It makes you feel stronger. It enhances your life to have that cut

[00:13:06] away and now you know what is possible. You know what you had and now that is missing. That's what leads to the suicides and leads to the depression. Okay, that makes sense. All right, third question.

[00:13:29] All right. Can you tell me anything about, and I might pronounce this wrong, but the Shanchan, the group that we met this week without massive spoilers, but it felt like there's a lot of history there, things they hinted at, but...

[00:13:50] They really said a lot without saying a lot. So basically what I believe that they said was that you are all squatters on what is on stolen land. You have forgotten the promises of your ancestors. I think that they mentioned either Luther, Pendragon or Arthur Hawkeling.

[00:14:19] I feel like they might have, they might not have, but so basically, we'll just say generations before these people's ancestors were, I guess, a part of this land. Now they have come back to,

[00:14:38] I guess, a good comparison would be like if we didn't have sea travel, right? We didn't know sea travel and England showed up, like someone from England showed up to America now and was like,

[00:14:52] hey you guys are, this is all of England's property and we're coming to take it back. What the hell are you talking about? Oh no, what was it to obey, to await, to serve? Was the oath?

[00:15:18] But yeah, so they are back and they are here to do things and maybe take over. I don't know. We'll see. They did say that if you take the oaths, you share in the wealth of

[00:15:38] the Shang-Chang in their prosperity, but if you don't, well we saw what happens if you don't. I know that all I did was basically spit back at you what they said in the episode, but

[00:15:53] I know I'm almost positive that we'll get more. Yeah, they like to just feed us little bits at a time and then we finally get the whole picture and that is why I'm enjoying the show so it's okay.

[00:16:10] So should we take a little break and then we can hear from some of our sponsors and then we'll get into our points? Yeah, that sounds good. All right, we'll be back. Welcome back.

[00:16:22] All right, so moving into our points. All right, so you went first the last couple of weeks and I'll go first this week. All right, we'll stay on that Shang-Chang train and I'll just say

[00:16:40] the instant that this happened, I immediately went, oh Veronica is going to be so obsessed because Uno went down Game of Thrones style with regard to the oaths and I thought that the whole setup there was actually pretty well done. Hey, here we're going to start, you know,

[00:17:07] have a very intimidating ball gagged woman walk around and start pointing out random people that we will then basically just kidnap and take into custody while the entire town is being told

[00:17:25] why they are, they and their ancestors are all wrong and how they are inhabiting land that was stolen from somebody else that has now shown up to reclaim it. And it's like okay, like yeah,

[00:17:43] okay, they got these soldiers and yeah, we saw what happened from the people, the channelers. Okay, I guess. But then it was very honestly, it made me, it very much reminded me of the

[00:17:57] lineup from The Walking Dead where it was, hey, I'm going to pick one of you and I'm going to do what I have to in order to make an example. And then I honest, I really thought that the

[00:18:13] idea that we were going to go ahead and find the person who was least likely to take the oath, most rebellious person out there in the crowd, we're going to find them say they are

[00:18:26] going to swear the oath. And you know, if they do then I mean, I guess it just makes the whole thing easier. But you basically find the person who's going to be a waste of your

[00:18:41] effort to either hold on to or capture or whatever. And you publicly murder them in order to make a point. And this was very, like this was pretty graphic. I thought it was all, I thought the

[00:18:57] whole setup was well done and it was well choreographed. And it was basically like a play, like they knew what was going to happen. It was just a matter of who it was going to be

[00:19:09] and then were they going to have to make more examples on the back end. So that's kind of my point, that whole, I'll call it a farce because that's kind of what it was. Like it was basically,

[00:19:25] we know exactly what's happening and the only people who don't are the audience. Not us the audience but the people who are standing being spoken to and being dictated upon. Yeah, I think I like audibly gasped and was like, no, no. Yeah, that was a big bummer. I

[00:19:47] definitely all the signs were there that that was coming. And I still just, I think because I so badly didn't want to lose that character. I was still holding out hope that he was going to

[00:19:58] somehow pull his knife out and get out of that impossible situation. But yeah, I mean, that was, this was, you know, this is that first example of brutality. And it's important when you are showing your strength to a new group of people.

[00:20:18] You know, in the comparison to The Walking Dead, it's very, very similar. Yeah, I think absolutely. That's all I had. You have anything else on that? Yeah, I did wonder what you thought about, you know, the girls they were picking out. Do you

[00:20:36] think they were just picking out all the young girls? Or do you think that that the girl with the mouthpiece walking through could see girls that maybe had some potential to be able to access the power or channel? Or do you think it was just

[00:20:54] let's grab the young, healthy women of the town? I think that you are onto something with regard to the finding. Because we know that, you know, we know that as Moraine walked by a green and nine, she could tell that they could

[00:21:10] channel and they could sense the power. And so if we follow that lead, I'm going to assume that the person walking through and pointing at other women could sense some sort of capability.

[00:21:27] And so, hey, we're going to pull them out and say, hey, we'll make use of you in our group. Awesome. Yeah, I think that's all I had on that then. Okay. All right. So what's your first one?

[00:21:44] I think that I'll just sort of piggyback off of you and go on to carry on what happened at the end to Perrin. So, you know, we see him as the last to bow in that scene

[00:21:56] after Uno goes down. And then close to the end of the episode, he sort of wakes up in a carriage with Ishmael. I'm just going to say Ishmael. It's just easier. So he wakes up with Ishmael, who is, you know, pretty intently interested in Perrin.

[00:22:18] It was interesting. He does reveal, I guess, some sound he sort of reveals somewhat of himself. I'm not sure if Perrin left thinking that he was actually the dark one, because he just sort of got these flashes of his sort of alternate looking face, I think,

[00:22:39] and then said Rand was supposed to have killed you or destroyed you. So I wasn't sure fully what Perrin's understanding of who Ishmael was as he left, but Ishmael was certainly very interested in Perrin. And he says a few things like he tells Perrin that he has

[00:22:59] something in him that calls for blood. And then he's about to leave Perrin as they're under attack. And he mentions, the more wolf you are, the more you're mine. And Ishmael didn't seem upset at all

[00:23:19] that Elias and the wolves were coming to attack the caravan and take out all of the guards. And that Perrin was getting away. It seemed like that was actually the outcome possibly that he

[00:23:32] wanted. I don't know for sure. But it does seem like I'm hoping that we are finally advancing, you know, closer and closer to Perrin really understanding more about who he is and us

[00:23:47] understanding more about who he is. So I did notice that as Elias busted into the carriage to help Perrin get out, his mouth is covered in blood. And so I'm still left just very curious

[00:24:02] as to what this situation will be. Is this a full werewolf type of situation where you're working between being a wolf and a man? Or, you know, we obviously see that there's this strong

[00:24:15] connection to be able to sort of bring wolves in to help coordinate attacks with you. I just wasn't sure with Elias' mouth covered in blood and sort of the mention of, you know,

[00:24:29] the more wolf you are and the calling for blood within Perrin, what that's going to mean? Are you just a human who goes and rips men's throats out like a wolf or is there some sort of in-between

[00:24:41] state? I felt like I think I've been frustrated with how long this reveal is taking. But it feels like we're getting closer. And so I was I did enjoy that scene a lot and sort of that

[00:24:54] little bit of hint to this advancing. So funnily enough, I call him Elias just because that's a name that I'm familiar with. But so seeing Elias put forth more character and more revealing of himself

[00:25:17] in like this one sentence of let's go. Like there was more feeling in that one line than he showed all of last episode. And I mean, maybe he was in the thrall of whatever bloodlust he was in.

[00:25:34] But yeah, it was I thought it was really I liked it. And it makes me want to again know more. Although as you say, we're now 11 episodes in and I'm kind of like, all right, come on,

[00:25:50] let's just let's do something. Let's do something I like gain control of whatever it is that you're doing. Come on, let's let's let's up to it. I was disappointed in how little we saw loyal

[00:26:02] and thought it was odd that loyal would just I mean, I get like let quote unquote let Perrin be taken. But I will, I will say that Ishmael said a couple of things that were interesting. So High Lady

[00:26:20] Sauroth, who was the lady on the the plank when the we were going they're going to fall to join her coterie, not menagerie but her her her collection of people at the court. I do need to go take a look

[00:26:42] at the map on Amazon to see what where foam is. Yeah, so like I'm just curious how far they are and how long this trip would take if he didn't get busted out. Yeah, Eliza and the wolves

[00:26:59] definitely did a number on the Shunshan and it was I thought that was pretty cool. I think I think that's all I had for that point. Yeah, I think it was interesting that you reminded

[00:27:13] us of the other things Ishmael had sort of revealed. And I think the only last thing about this was sort of my impatience for this to advance and Perrin to embrace the side of himself

[00:27:27] because I went the reveal and I do think this was a caution against it almost from the show because it does seem like the more he taps into that, the more at risk he is of possibly sort of,

[00:27:43] you know, I don't know that it's as clear cut as like good guys, bad guys, dark side. But he does seem like Ishmael with the amount of interest he has in Perrin embracing that

[00:27:56] side of himself. It does seem like it's going to put him at increased risk of having to sort of choose where his allegiance and where he's going to land. And so maybe I'm okay that it's been taking

[00:28:10] a while because I do like what a redeemable and honorable character he's been up till now, but maybe he'll be more interesting when he has to make more decisions. Right. Yeah, I do think that the idea of a person who's always been good

[00:28:33] and always tries to do the right thing and then eventually has to succumb to whether it is due to circumstance or whatever, and they have to make decisions for the wrong reasons. I do think find those characters less interesting than the ones that are initially self-centered

[00:28:56] and self-absorbed who are now kind of, they are actually having a character development arc. Woo! And those are intense. Or having kind of like a character development arc and actually becoming better people. Although going from good guy to embrace the darkness is an interesting one

[00:29:20] depending on how you do it. Walter White's a prime example of how that can be very interesting, although you don't necessarily like him worth the end. Yeah, and I was thinking a lot of Game of

[00:29:30] Thrones and some of the characters I liked that sort of went both of those character arcs. And looking back, I definitely liked the sort of bad to good rather than the good to bad. Just in case nobody's seen the full Game of Thrones, I won't spoil anything, but

[00:29:49] I think most people would probably agree with a few of those. Yeah, I mean, I think that's your inclination though. I think there's something about a comeback story that is, or maybe not a comeback, but like the whole concept of a redeemable character,

[00:30:09] it gives a goal to work towards. If you have a person who is just falling deeper and deeper down a hole and you see how far they have fallen, that is less so. It's less engaging and much

[00:30:25] less easier to root for. Okay, that's it? Yeah, that's it. All right. So let's move on to another. We'll go from bad to good, right? Let's just hit Matt real quick. I'm just going to talk about it

[00:30:42] because I like it. Matt, so we find after events earlier in the episode that Leandron just says, screw it. You know what? I've wasted my time and Matt, you are a waste of my resources

[00:31:03] and maybe I let you distract me too much. Get the hell out of here. I don't give a crap where you go. It's almost like he's looking for a reason to be kept. How do I know you don't have

[00:31:16] a sister out there waiting for me to do whatever? And she's just like, I don't care. Everything that has a sister died today and failing to mention that it was Nine Yave,

[00:31:28] but a sister died today and I may have been able to stop it if I hadn't been wasting my time with you. Like that scene where you visibly saw him start to break, to embrace the fact that

[00:31:46] he's ashamed of what he's done. And I think that Donald Fenn did a really good job embodying that. Now, Matt and men on the road, but of course, man has to be Leandron's little crony.

[00:32:04] And I feel like she's like an unwilling crony. It seemed that way during the interaction at the end, but it was, hey, do this. And all is forgiven and you'll never have to hear from Isidae again.

[00:32:18] It makes me wonder where she's taking him and what's going to happen. Yeah, I agree. I didn't see the twist with men and Leandron coming. And so that was a surprise, although I did get slightly suspicious when Matt pulled his bureau back

[00:32:41] to get men and her side of the cell, she has no effort made to hide that there's a hole there. And she's just sitting on her bed, just like absolutely waiting for him. I was like,

[00:32:55] Oh, hey, what's up? Yeah. But I didn't expect her to be working for Leandron. And I was really trying to understand all of Leandron's actions. So all the things you just sort of listed off like why did she tell him

[00:33:13] that a Gwyn needs him, but then like insult him to destroy him? Like, yeah, I just want to know what the long game is, like what her plan was in doing all that. I at first thought she was

[00:33:27] just trying to push him really far to see if he had any ability to like channel the same way that she's been doing to others just to like try to figure out, you know, he was one of those

[00:33:40] original five. So I didn't know if that was it. Obviously, that didn't seem to be what she was going for. So I am, yeah, I left interested, excited. I really like the dynamic

[00:33:51] of Matt and Min, but also just confused, like you said, of where they're going and why do you think that Min told Leandron about her vision of Matt? I don't know. I feel like

[00:34:09] Min holds a lot of that stuff back from anybody, let alone the person who's imprisoned her. Although, like now I feel like she knew what was coming. Like, hey, just sit and wait for him to

[00:34:25] dig in or to dig into yourself because it's definitely going to be coming. So, yeah, I am interested to know how that happened. I don't know that we're going to find out.

[00:34:41] I imagine at some point we'll have Min explain, oh yeah, this is why I had to do this. It almost be like 10 things ahead about you or coming to the shrew where, oh, yeah, I initially did this because

[00:35:01] this reason, but eventually I came to like you and I kind of care about you and that's why I continue to help you and all that. So, I don't want to be like, oh yeah, it's just a common trope

[00:35:13] because of this, but I do expect that we will at some point or another see that. Yeah, I agree. I think I could definitely see that playing out. Although, I think Min cares about people, but it does seem, I think she's going to choose herself kind of above

[00:35:36] people pretty consistently. And I think probably because of her abilities, she hasn't probably let very many people close to her. It's probably painful too if you could always see the future of those you love though, probably be pretty painful. So, I am just curious to see

[00:35:54] if we get growth for her character or if she tries to ditch Matt at the first chance. To be fair, let me be very clear. I don't dislike Min and I don't distrust Min. I just

[00:36:08] think that it was just, I was just like, oh, that sucks. I feel bad for Matt because he's being suckered by somebody that he trusts. Absolutely. All right, so what's your second one?

[00:36:32] Okay, so yeah, my next point was sort of Rand and his struggle for trying to seek control over his power. And so he, we saw at the end of last episode that he had really plotted this whole

[00:36:50] situation where he was working in that, I don't know if it's an asylum, I guess for men that are losing their mind from using, from channeling. But his whole plan there was to get to Logaine, the false dragon who's being held there. And so we revealed that and

[00:37:08] this episode we start out and it seems like he's trying to sort of be sly and slowly work up to having this intended conversation with Logaine. But Logaine knows

[00:37:21] exactly who he is. And he knows he's just sort of like, get to the point man, what do you want to ask me? And he reveals that he absolutely remembered Rand from when he had been, when Logaine

[00:37:35] had been toted in the cage to the White Tower. And now we finally understand why Logaine began laughing maniacally after making eye contact with Rand because he was able to actually see that glow around Rand, see that he was indeed a man that could channel and probably was

[00:37:54] aware of how some indication of how powerful he was. And so Rand, he asked him the whole point is that he wants Logaine to teach him how to control his power because he feels very out of

[00:38:08] control with it. And Logaine's like, yeah, sure, I'll help you with that. But first bring me this really exotic bottle of red wine that is from, I think the home town of Logaine, which is

[00:38:24] apparently very far away and difficult to get to. And I will let Greg remind me of how to say this region's name. Gelden. Okay, so Gelden red is what he's going to go seek out. And so

[00:38:42] Rand is like, all right, I'm gonna go do this. I know this is impossible, but I'm gonna figure it out. And so he goes to seek the help of his handy dandy innkeeper slash friend with benefits,

[00:38:52] Celine. And she sneaks them into a fancy dinner party. And part of this we get to see this class stratification that's going on in the town that they're in, that there's these incredibly wealthy

[00:39:07] people that are just having a good time and by being in very expensive wine and food. And their big thing is who is this mysterious man and woman? And it's all about the gossip and the sliding of

[00:39:20] people. And so what Rand does find out from these very rich people is something he'd seen earlier in the day, which was a group of men going out on this traditional hunt of the horn of

[00:39:35] Valiar. And he finds out that that is just a falsity. And if I understood right, it's basically just to sort of dwindle out some of the population. Is that right, Greg? Did I? That's what I

[00:39:50] understood. That's sort of what they said. Okay, so Rand is like shocked at this. And Celine gets in the bottle of wine, but he gets pretty pissed when he reports that to her.

[00:40:01] And she's like, yeah, of course, we don't care. And so he storms out, but he's got his bottle of wine. And so again, I just think this is getting to see the complexity of Rand's character.

[00:40:15] Like he's very sensitive to certain things, but he is struggling against some darkness within. So he takes the wine back to Loghain, but doesn't really seem like Loghain was actually that interested

[00:40:28] in the wine other than just like spilling it out of his cup. And you know, at the end of the day, Rand has gone through this all this trouble to get this bottle of wine and

[00:40:42] Loghain is like, look, you can't contain it just like this wine pouring out of this cup. It's just going to spill out of you. So thanks for the wine, but I can't help you.

[00:40:53] So Rand is obviously pretty upset and we see him channel the power while he's meeting back up with Celine and they're making up. Do you think that she could see? I mean, because she said,

[00:41:06] I'm not scared of you. Could she see that he was channeling? Or did she just? That's what it sounded like. I mean, I say sounded like, I'm assuming that the red,

[00:41:16] like the orangish red fire was side in, was that was Rand? Because I don't think it's Celine who's channeling because she has like the white side in or other side are right. And so like the red fire,

[00:41:34] I believe was side in, but I mean, I based on like, I can't imagine that she saw it. So, but like you saw that, I don't know what the hell he was doing. Like he was just maybe losing

[00:41:51] his mind and just like reaching out for some sort of solace somewhere and, you know, in desperation and just reaching out. And then like it was very confusing because I didn't know what the hell was

[00:42:09] going on with him. I was like, is somebody else doing this to him? What is going on here? I don't really get it. And then I was like, did he like pass out from the power? And then he woke up

[00:42:27] and then he like, oh, now I'm just going to like channel on accident again. And like the building on fire, you know, like what the hell is happening? So yeah, I was a little confused by the end of the episode.

[00:42:44] Same. I wasn't completely clear on everything. I mean, I think, I think what you said is how I was interpreting it, that it was definitely his power because it was the red. I just, I couldn't tell.

[00:42:59] It just, it felt like her saying that maybe she knew or could sense it something but maybe not. I just, it's not consistent with what they've sort of been showing us previously of like what you

[00:43:12] can see. And yeah, I didn't know if he just sort of like lost himself in the in the sex and the power and like passed out afterwards and then just woke up and was like, let's light the roof on fire.

[00:43:28] Yeah, like, yeah, I was like, so I was very confused by like the he passed like, he's in the middle of like, I guess you could say he prematurely did his thing and then

[00:43:44] and then he like passed out. And then like, I really just don't understand like, oh, hey, I woke up and now I feel weird, but oh, the fire got fire. Yeah, I thought that was maybe a little clunkily done. I don't think that we're ever going to get

[00:44:10] any explanation as to that. Maybe that's what these podcasts are for and not we're not able to explain it. But yeah, I thought that it was not great, but I think that everything that we are

[00:44:27] saying makes sense. And so yeah. I think the only other thing this is just a side note, but Rand sort of reminds me of Hayden Christensen playing Anakin Skywalker. You know, they look like

[00:44:43] physically are a little similar, but it's that you know, he's just always that fake and burdened and and unsure and kind of a good guy. But being very like, you know, struggling with his power

[00:44:58] and his guilt of worry for those he loves. And is he going to hurt those he loves? And yeah, I just can't unsee that he's saying there was there was something in

[00:45:11] when he was standing next to Celine and she's like looking at the fire. And he's just like, oh, oh, I like there was somebody he reminded me of. And I was just like, I can't place it.

[00:45:26] I don't know if it was like silly and Murphy in 28 days later or not. It was like the bald, like the shaved head or whatever. But something that's just like, man, that looks so familiar.

[00:45:38] But, you know, I've not seen this this actor in anything except for this. But yeah, like, man, you look like a drooling moron. He's like, oh, let's go on. But yeah, no, yeah, I totally see the Hayden Christensen thing, especially like going from

[00:45:58] from last season, when his hair was actually much closer to what Anakin's was to to shaved head. I really do see that. Yeah, I think that that's all I had to say about Rand unless you have anything

[00:46:16] else to add about Rand and Celine. Okay, so like, like you said, I will say that Celine like, could she like sense C slash whatever his power? I mean, the fact that she told him that

[00:46:36] she'd kill him if he ever left her again. You know, just walked away from her like that or whatever, like that seemed kind of menacing. It was that was not the idea that was not the impression that I received on her previous. That was much more threatening.

[00:46:56] And I feel like the actress, you know, the actor carried it off very well. But like, I believed her. And so I'm like, what is going on with that? I definitely think she's more than just an innkeeper for sure. Right. Like,

[00:47:13] she's there's more we're going to have revealed about her character for sure. Yeah. All right, so I do I'll talk a little bit more about the hunt for the horn. So they what they said was that the last time it was called was 400 years ago.

[00:47:29] And if someone from Karahein recovers it and brings it to the queen, she will give some sort of exorbitant reward. So it's it's like, okay, yeah, you're sure like it is this is my my lottery

[00:47:47] ticket. If I happen to be able to find this thing, I can make out for me and my family for the rest of our lives or maybe the rest of my grandkids lives or whatever. We did have another gleaman

[00:48:02] telling stories about the hunt for the horn. They gather in the country of Ileon. I believe and I have to go back and take a look at the map. But I believe that the country of Ileon is like the almost like the Florida of of this this landmass.

[00:48:20] And that's like the far southeast. And I'm not sure where Karahein is, but I feel like it if we were talking like the United States, like Karahein would be like in the Arizona, like Texas, like northern Texas area. And then the Ileon is in like the Florida area.

[00:48:46] Again, I don't know how big the landmass is necessarily, but that's that's how I kind of remember looking at it. There was a so we now you've heard of the country called Ileon.

[00:49:01] And there is something that I want to address when with regard to the, you know, the invitations from the Lord, the Karahein and Lord's, so in the books, this is referred to as the game of houses.

[00:49:19] So there are hundreds of houses in Karahein and you know, there's a anybody who watched Game of Thrones was what will be familiar with it, but there's a lot of political intrigue and

[00:49:31] you know, what what the lady Annavir or whatever Annavol or whatever name was was saying was that whether you whether you decline the the invitation or you accept it, people are going to read into it and you're going to make enemies or friends based on either answer.

[00:49:51] And you know, it's all about how you play the game. Oh no, neither I'm just going to throw her invitation into the one I made an enemy of her and even she's a lot allied with is now your

[00:50:01] enemy and and so literally you're just just by being in that room. You're going to make enemies that regardless of what you do. And and so in the books, the I feel like I said

[00:50:18] in the books a lot this episode, the game the game of the houses is like it happens in all countries and like all the Lord Lord ships and whatnot across all countries. But most

[00:50:35] most concentrated in Karahein. This is where the game of houses is more or maybe even called the game of Thrones is more prevalent and the results of them are more impactful. Maybe it happens in Andorra, maybe I mean it seems like it happens in Tarvalon.

[00:50:55] Maybe it happens in places like Iliand and Saldia and Tyr and whatever but this this is the place where it was it is you know, I guess it was it was born or at least it

[00:51:09] embraced it the most. So it made sense for this to happen in Karahein where you are where you're going to suffer the most for your lack of interest in the game of houses.

[00:51:23] So I thought it was well put together and yes, it was a lot of exposition. But when you're when you're standing in a room full of people who look absolutely ridiculous in their

[00:51:40] wigs and their fancy coats, I don't know how much how much you could really like imply rather than just say stuff. I agree and yeah, I think at least they felt like the type of people who would

[00:51:58] think so highly of themselves that they would be more like talking in exposition that sort of way. So I didn't it didn't bother me as much as it can in other scenarios.

[00:52:13] Yeah, like I said, I felt like it was a good way to get the point across by explaining to like, oh, I'm taking pity on you by coming over and talking to you because I have nothing to

[00:52:25] lose because maybe I'm super powerful. Maybe I'm a minor, minor noble, whatever. Like I thought it was I say well done. It was not as clunkily done as the end of Rand's story but or as confusingly

[00:52:41] done as the end of Rand's story. But yeah, I actually I thought it was it was it was good. And as long as it got the point across, I think it's the biggest thing.

[00:52:52] You know, I think they were trying to cram a lot of progression for Rand's storyline in and to show us a lot. And I think that may have been why overall it did feel a little clunky. Still again,

[00:53:06] I reflect on you know, what was the point of him asking him to go get the red wine? Because it did force them to sort of do this very quick introduction to this class system,

[00:53:22] which I'm sure is going to continue to possibly be important in future episodes. But you know, maybe if they hadn't, I don't know, it just maybe they could have done it a little differently spent a little more time trying to help us understand what's going on with

[00:53:37] Rand and his loss of control. And then maybe giving us more insight into those those classes later on, but that's actually a really good time. No, I mean, that's a really good point. I think

[00:53:48] that I think that the red wine was like even Celine remarked on it. She was like, what you need? You need it like right now. Like you spent how many months getting to this person. And now you oh, well he asked for this fancy, you know,

[00:54:05] we'll just say this Cuban cigar. So now oh, I need to get it tonight because I have to have my answer right now, which made the answer that he got that much even less desirable or

[00:54:21] I went through all of this crap and you know, to get it as quickly as possible. And like it's not the answer that I want or that anything like you can't help me.

[00:54:33] That's what it comes down to. And that's yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think that's something that they could have cut away from Rand and made it a little bit more,

[00:54:43] but we'll just say smooth and and just done a little bit better. But that also would have included, you know, maybe taking said this was already a long episode. Like I feel like

[00:54:55] that I think this is what just over an hour and there was like, there was there's a lot of stuff crammed into this episode. And I feel like it was I feel like they could as you said, they could

[00:55:07] have I guess they could have extended it, but then you wouldn't have gotten to the point of Rand setting his house on fire at the end of this episode. So they had to get it all done in one

[00:55:18] and maybe they could have done a little bit of like a time jump or something or whatever. But it's funny because I didn't it didn't really bother me until we talked about it. And now

[00:55:28] I think I have less respect for the storytelling than I did before. But you know, hey, not respect. That's not the right word. But I think I appreciate it less

[00:55:40] because it seems like they did have to they did try to fit seven pounds of crap into a five pound bag. Yeah, perfect. That's just the analogy I would abuse Greg. All right. Is that it for your second point? Okay. Well, in that case, we'll go ahead and

[00:55:58] that was a long couple of points. And I think we'll go ahead and take a quick break and we'll be back in a minute. Sounds great. All right, guys. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed those

[00:56:07] ads. And I'm very excited, Greg, to hear what your final point is if it's what I think it might be. All right, so I'll be honest, I kind of saved this one for last. But let me just

[00:56:21] preface this by saying I am wildly impressed by the range of Zoe Robbins this episode. I don't particularly care for Nanjev. I don't particularly care for her character.

[00:56:38] I think she's kind of a bitch. I think she's kind of, you know, kind of uppity. And whether it is in defense of the youths in her care or not, there's no reason to be super cranky all the damn time.

[00:56:56] Having said that, she went through some fucking shit this episode, like some wildly if you think about the breadth of what she experienced, like the Amazon fuck you fuck it. Nanjev faces her greatest fears. No, it's not she grifes her greatest fears. She went through a psychological

[00:57:19] fucking torture scene. She was reminded about her dead parents and how they died and that she had to walk away from them. She had to abandon her parents as a young child. Okay, oh, that's like

[00:57:35] the first arch. Okay, all right. Well, that's so that's that's our past, right? And then we get into Hey, and now we go to people that we have loved and cared for and as the wisdom of a small village.

[00:57:49] These are people that I've known for years, even if like she was raised in this village and she became the wisdom. So she's known these people for possibly decades, and she is watching

[00:58:02] them die. She is watching them be given a route which basically who was the guy who was the guy the assistant suicide guide, Jack. Dr. Kovorkian. Yeah, Kovorkian. Yeah, basically she's watching Natty Cawthon, Matt's mom, Jack Kovorkian, these these people. And it's like,

[00:58:23] hey, like it's a it's a less painful death than what they're going to go through. And oh, by the way, you are helpless to help them. And the everything that you stood for or that

[00:58:37] you felt the thing that the White Tower is for you, you basically just been abandoned by this what you represent. And then, hey, in Tams like pulling her back like with his words like,

[00:58:51] hey, no, just just come come sit with me or come maybe we'll work something out. And she has to she has to walk away from them. And this kind of ties into what I was talking about last week

[00:59:02] where it's like the tower has to come first. Okay, so then and I'll be honest, I like, yes, I had some prior to book knowledge, but did you like let's be fair, the cold open was 20

[00:59:15] minutes. It was 20 minutes before the Wheel of Time credit thing came up. And I kept waiting for it to come up, I thought it was going to come up when she walked through the first charge.

[00:59:25] I thought it was going to come up when she, you know, did whatever and I thought it was super effective. And I thought that Zoe Robbins was absolutely phenomenal. And both times that I

[00:59:38] watched the when she came out of the third ring at the end, I teared up like the first time was I was like, like she come in, you can you can see the saliva come out as she just like bursts out

[00:59:53] like just the noise just bursts out of her mouth. And like just the pain and the sorrow and the depth of emotion absolutely wildly impressive, like so good. And I was just like,

[01:00:13] oh, and then like, and then I teared up a little bit the second time, like, and I was skipping, I was, I was skimming, I skimming, but I still I was entranced that I watched

[01:00:23] the entire until it went to black where a green was holding her. And you just, you can literally just see the her gaping mouth, it's just chilling. The fact that she was carrying

[01:00:35] her daughter through the arch. And then she comes through and she realizes that it's not there. And she's just like just heartbroken, not only for what happened, like watching Matt get killed, watching parent get killed, watching land get killed. And then, you know, okay, well,

[01:00:52] the only thing I have left to live for, I'm going to take into my arms, and I'm going to go. And now that's gone to and like, fuck all these ice and I fuck this fucking test,

[01:01:03] fuck all this because fuck. That is, fuck this. It was it was just very, very powerful and very moving. But watching it on the screen and watching Zoe Robbins do this, I'm pretty it's Zoe Robbins, right? Like that's, I believe so. I'm almost positive that's her name.

[01:01:25] But it was, I was just wildly impressed by her, her, her, her chops here. I completely agree. I mean, even just hearing you like re-describe it right there, I almost felt like emotion welling up. I mean, I even on the second watch, I was,

[01:01:47] it was not a skim. It was I was fully watching it. Like, if this whole episode had just been the arches, I would have been okay with it. She's my favorite character. So I was laughing as you were saying

[01:02:04] that, you know, you don't like her that much, which is just it's so interesting how different different people can feel about characters. But she I totally suit your saying like she is harsh, and grumpy, sometimes without reason. But she's also strong. And there's a lot of softness that

[01:02:26] she's compensating for I think with the harshness. And yeah, the actress just she really pulled for some raw emotion that came through it was believable. And like I don't want to watch it again. But I totally do.

[01:02:47] I do. I'm gonna watch it again, just just the arches. I'm just going to fast forward. I thought something you said was really interesting. And I hadn't, I'd been trying to like write down what I thought, just specifically what the fear was that she was

[01:03:03] battling against. But I hadn't even connected that this was just past present and future. Like we were almost getting a ghost of future past, right ghost of of night have passed present and future. Or you know what future could possibly be. She was interesting. But I think

[01:03:23] that last one if you really think about it how do you think her daughter was who I don't know if you notice she'd named after her mother Elnor. I caught that Elnor was the

[01:03:34] daughter's name at least on second watch. I didn't I don't think I'd caught that her mother's name was Elnor. I caught I caught that on second watch that she named her after her mother. But what do

[01:03:44] you think that girl was four or five? Oh no, I feel like she was a little bit like I'd say like probably six or seven. Okay. And so then you know, probably a couple years for her and

[01:03:55] Lynn, I mean, so she lived 10 years present day. Yeah. And she was there a long time. And she now has come out and has to mourn the loss of her child and her love with land because

[01:04:11] Can you imagine her seeing Lanigan? She just lived for 10 years with him. And she, you know, she saw what he could be when he was free of Moraine. And and now she comes back and like it's it's exactly what it was 10 years before. She has

[01:04:35] had, she has lived an entire life. She has lived an entire adult life from the time she entered the arch to the time she came back out. I mean maybe it like did like the whole click thing

[01:04:49] fast forward, whatever. But I mean, we saw her at the beginning, we saw her at the end, we saw it for the two different time that it appeared the first time, the time that appeared

[01:04:59] the second time. And I mean, you're talking years, decades maybe and what she yeah, it's not just of the loss of and I don't want to minimize it at all. It's not the loss of a child. It's the loss of literally your entire life. And

[01:05:24] and she really like it was really kind of funny because it when in that last set, in the last couple scenes, she looked fuller. She looked happier. She looked like she has was like more mature and more a more complete person. And then when she came out

[01:05:51] in that in that like in her shifts, she like she looked younger, more vulnerable, more like and I mean, it just it was absolutely phenomenal. I thought this was the best dramatic sequence that we've had and the most emotionally impactful as well,

[01:06:12] as indicated by all of my fucks given earlier. I think they were warranted. I think if you're going to spend them anywhere, this was a good spend. Yeah, it was so good. So what do you think

[01:06:26] is next? Well, I don't know if you can answer that as a book reader, but I'll tell you my questions of are sort of like what's she going to choose next? Because obviously,

[01:06:38] in the in the false reality where she came out of the third arch, she was going to leave the White Tower and never be able to return. And now you know that was that was with the three

[01:06:50] arches she'd gone through before now she's suffered a much more significant psychological loss. And how she going to reconcile that with the I said I I noticed something interesting. Lan asks her when they're talking about a Gwen said I yeah, in the dream.

[01:07:13] He asks my name if she regrets that she left the tower. And she doesn't answer. She looks hesitant. She looks like you know it's complicated. And so just I wonder what she's going

[01:07:29] to choose in the real timeline now that she's back. Yeah, it was I am looking forward to watching the next episode. Yes, definitely. All right. So what do you have for your last point?

[01:07:46] I mean, that was definitely my last big point. I just loved it. Like I said, I think I will go back and rewatch the whole sequence of the arches again. I do have other notes and I did have quite a bit,

[01:08:01] sort of just about Landren. And so maybe I'll make that my last point before we go into smaller notes but okay. So I'm going to go ahead and get back to the question.

[01:08:13] Go into smaller notes but I just again saw the same theme of Leandren of her continuing her path to becoming the emperor by encouraging everyone to use their anger, use their pain. So you know she was she did that to Matt which we already sort of

[01:08:34] talked about just sort of baiting him trying to get him trying to use all his bad feelings to manipulate him and doing what she wanted. But then you know we haven't really talked about

[01:08:45] iguan yet this say iguan. So I say igween and then I know that Derek over on TV podcast there says igween and I think that in the show they say igween. Okay, I'll go with igween.

[01:09:04] Okay. But I'm sure I'll say it wrong in 30 seconds so sorry. We haven't really talked about her but you know she's obviously both in the dream or both in the arch sequence and in reality she's

[01:09:17] really struggling with Nineveh being gone and certainly when she finds out that she's lost to the arches and to everyone's expectations she's dead. You know that doesn't go over well for igween and she goes to confront Leandron and again Leandron really pushes her to the edge.

[01:09:38] She does give her good advice. She's like hey you're powerful but that's not your strength. Your strength is your mind and that was good advice but then you know she just continues

[01:09:49] to push you know she backs her up to the edge and yeah you sort of leave with igween threatening like you don't know what I can do and you'd expect Leandron would be

[01:10:08] angry at that but as she turns she smiles and this is exactly the type of response. This is exactly what she wanted was to push her. Game of houses. Yes, yeah, yeah so this is the

[01:10:23] White Tower game of houses. I am really curious that at points it seemed like Leandron maybe did have true regret because she was sad that Nineveh is gone but you know I still think it comes back

[01:10:46] to Leandron herself and I don't know how much of it is true care for someone else versus shame that she lost another novice and frustration that she lost out on the power she thought they were going to gain within the sisterhood of the eye. It is funny that

[01:11:11] how like the concept of as long as we can harness this power for our own use like that's the they think of these novices as resources as opposed to people. It is a characteristic

[01:11:32] of the rich and powerful that they do think of what they can get out of or at least a lot of them like stereotypical is what they can get out of a person as opposed to I hope that they can be the

[01:11:48] best versions of themselves. I hope that they can express and push to make to better themselves and be that best thing for themselves not just for my own personal gain. Yeah people are a resource if we're just going to keep referencing The Walking Dead this episode

[01:12:10] but yeah I think I definitely see that trickling down from a lot of the higher ups in this episode that it's all about those under them and how they can serve them and less how they can really

[01:12:24] empower them so yeah I wonder I think Leandron is a complex character I think her shell is very very thick and I'm just curious to continue to see you know when we're talking about character

[01:12:43] arcs like is she someone that we will see in our ship some. Are we gonna like Leandron by the end of this yeah is she gonna be the blankety blank from Game of Thrones that at the beginning you're

[01:12:55] like oh what the hell and then at the end you're like maybe they weren't so bad. And even as she is she is still even just as is even if she doesn't change a ton she

[01:13:08] is an interesting character right because she even if her methods are tough and even if she does have a lot of ego she does seem to be doing things by some sort of code right for the greater good and maybe it's not all the right code

[01:13:29] but she's complex like there's a lot of gray area there. Well that's actually a really really good point and I don't like the character which you're not supposed to and and the actress I don't mean to boil people down to their physical characteristics but she's got

[01:13:52] such like a strong jaw and a strong chin and like it's you almost feel like her presence is like almost like imposing but yeah exactly a very striking woman right not classically to quote like Thelvasa not classically beautiful but striking like like you want to look at her

[01:14:18] yeah exactly she's interesting her eyes like her eyes are super intense and again I don't know if that's what she just looks like when she's just talking to someone or if that's what she the actor

[01:14:31] puts on for her presentation but like I thought that the character again very impressed with the actor not as big a fan of the character but uh but yeah like in some of my notes I guess I

[01:14:46] only had two that I actually read so respected Nyanyave that's uh like oh I lost the you know we lost a sister that I really respected is she lie I mean because she she can't lie right she can't

[01:15:01] well she can't tell an untruth um like she can't if she if she didn't maybe like was there another sister that she that they lost and but that we didn't hear about like I just I don't if it feels

[01:15:19] like I'm supposed to she it feels like she's supposed to be a bad guy and I I don't I don't get it like it's not that I don't get it like I I if she's saying I respect like it really you

[01:15:34] respected her like you you respected maybe you respected the raw power that she represented but I mean maybe that's uh maybe maybe that that is that's where you can uh fit that you know that

[01:15:46] that that fine that that hair between the truth and untruth but um and then so my other note was maybe actually sad um but not enough to stop her from manipulating a queen and manipulating like

[01:16:05] she actually she oh she honestly looked angry when she threw the the the vase uh at the arches um yeah I I thought that she was outside of Zoya Robbins I'd say that that she was the

[01:16:22] that actor I can't for the life of me I can't remember her name and I know I I looked I've looked it up a couple times because I just can't help but look at her um but uh she uh she was very

[01:16:35] she's very very strong a very impressive character uh Kate Fleetwood um is the the actor and uh I thought she was yeah I thought she was good yeah I think very well cast for this role

[01:16:55] all around um yeah that's all that's all I really had about her you know what you were saying I also questioned whether she was being truthful you know I know she has to be truthful but

[01:17:12] whether she was really being straightforward in that but what would her end game have been to twist her words there because she was talking to Matt and she didn't reveal to him who she was

[01:17:22] talking about so what would have been the benefit if she was trying to mislead him to think she respected uh no I mean I think I think it leads import to her words in that I've wasted

[01:17:39] my time with you because I could have saved someone that was actually worthwhile as opposed to you um I think that would be the the point um by which you go okay like oh we lost someone that

[01:17:55] was worthwhile as opposed to yeah I could have just murdered you and been done with it and saved this person that I really cared for that makes sense yeah that's just just my take

[01:18:12] yeah that's all I've got for her then okay that was my last point all right um so if you uh look you have any what notes you got I did want to jump back because I think we didn't

[01:18:27] really talk about um sort of the escape from the third arch and how the exit actually came twice so yeah that's uh that's weird that's definitely weird and that I mean she wasn't supposed to be

[01:18:45] able to channel and she did um oh that's right she like she basically she blasted the huge products yeah the pull the the queen elisandre or whatever of of elis or methrin that and like

[01:19:05] that's my uh that's my sound effect from the like when I was a kid the X-men game colossus would like basically put a giant like blow people back and go oh and yeah so well if only the listeners

[01:19:20] could have seen all these uh blue lights shooting out from Greg just now and he made that noise so thank god no one was standing around me it's crazy but that made me wonder you know how many uh you

[01:19:35] know hopeful ice to die are actually living out a dream life somewhere in the arches that you know is it a dream life then get the second uh well I don't know I'm calling it a dream life I

[01:19:47] don't know that it's I mean I guess it's it's a it's some sort of life of a dream they're in a parallel universe or something where they're living out a different reality I guess well I would say that

[01:19:56] that if it makes you face your fears they're living out some horrible some horrible version of their lives um if that's the intent of the arches maybe yeah I guess I had been thinking about

[01:20:13] it as you have to face your fear and if she had left the first time that the um if she had left the first time the way back came her fear would have been that she was facing would

[01:20:29] have been walking away from from love of romantic love of land and so I sort of thought that maybe if you don't face your fear then sometimes you get to live but then she probably would have if

[01:20:45] she might have died right I guess but she would have got to live her 10 plus years in that so I don't know I guess I just wondered if there were other potential situations where an ice to die could

[01:20:57] be still trapped in the arches and you know it just seemed like there was so much that they did not know yeah no I I totally get what you're saying um I just like I don't know if it if

[01:21:09] Daigneve is such a strong uh like is so strong in character that she uh I mean I'm sure that the fact that she's so strong in the power is what had to have to do with the fact that she was

[01:21:24] able to tap into it um within the arches even though they said that you uh she wouldn't be able to um but uh yeah no that's that's that's a good question um the one thing that does stick with me

[01:21:42] is that she like I said don't get me wrong like it was absolutely heart wrenching to have her walk through the arch and not have anything in her arms uh you know having held my four-year-old

[01:21:57] daughter earlier today uh and you know to imagine that I would walk go from now and then I walk through a doorway and now I'm you know in my 20s again and I these last 20 years have just been erased

[01:22:15] including my children um I like that's absolutely heartbreaking but um but I would have thought that abandoning her child would have been a more challenging thing like oh mommy saved me from the Trollix and oh wait but the the way back will come only once

[01:22:41] like I feel like that would have been more challenging although I think especially after 10 years in the arch she would have abandoned the I mean it makes me wonder if like if the the arches

[01:22:53] are and this makes me uh actually I'm gonna make a this is one of my points or not one point one of my notes um it makes me wonder if the Terri and Grell uh kind of have a mind of their own

[01:23:05] it's like they don't give challenges that they know will be they're not the most difficult uh and they're ones that are the people are capable of of making the right choice they're not just so blinded by emotion and whatnot um because you you know my immediate

[01:23:25] thought would be that you are faced with most difficult choice ever and then you go okay well no I'm gonna save my child um but uh yeah anyway but it just she just but like I said the the the

[01:23:40] visual of her going from holding a child in her arms to uh to an empty husk of a woman who just lost a decade of her life that it was it was it was definitely very very dramatic

[01:23:56] and well written uh all right so well the notes you got we haven't really talked at all about Elaine um who is one of my favorite it's Elaine right yeah Elaine okay one of my favorite

[01:24:09] characters still um you know she just continues to be a pretty solid friend to Gwaine even though they haven't known each other that long um and maybe she isn't always saying the things that

[01:24:27] Gwaine wants to hear in the moment but uh you know she Gwaine yelled at her and told her you know get away and she still came back and showed it back up and even though she thought she was

[01:24:42] being completely irrational by camping out in front of the arches she still sat with her she still you know spoke some truth to her um she definitely is a little what appears to be I think

[01:24:57] wise beyond her years in the in her ability to sort of uh interpret the emotions people's or people are experiencing and to sort of give I think pretty sage advice um so that was my little

[01:25:13] tidbit of a note of just I continued to enjoy her character and continue to look forward to seeing where she goes my Elaine note is no bullshit like and she's also full of a bunch of knowledge right

[01:25:25] and I feel like I feel like we might be getting like we might get like tidbits because she you know spent six summers here when in the white tower when I was a child and so she has a

[01:25:38] a plethora of information not just from her experience in the tower but as uh the daughter Ere of Andor she you know she's been exposed to all of this all of her life and I imagine

[01:25:50] that give it the game of houses comes second nature to her and so when she meets someone like a Gwaine uh or a Gwaine it's almost refreshing it's it's oh you're saying what you mean

[01:26:03] or at least what you want me to think but I'm so experienced and wise beyond my years uh in all of this that I know that when you tell me get out it's just because of your pain and that the best

[01:26:18] answer is going to be give you a little bit of respect your immediate decision right now but give you a little bit of time and then come back and offer support because this is what my mother taught me or this is what my advisor taught me or

[01:26:33] it's the most important thing is to be there I'd be a source of support for your subjects and so yeah I think that we are I think we are going to get a much we're gonna be like oh well

[01:26:50] this is why she was so good you know doing all of these things because she had a bunch of training when she was younger yeah I don't know what uh psych courses she gets in her royal training

[01:27:04] but I think I could probably could probably use them um yeah I'm pretty good at reading people but I don't think I'm as sage as this as young uh Gwaine is at this point so yeah like to take

[01:27:20] some of those uh what is it you're calling it's not game of thrones game of houses I think I need some training in the in the game of houses just like her because she's pretty cool we talked

[01:27:32] about Matt but the fact that he was too ashamed to approach a gween or gwing uh like he just didn't have didn't have it in him to go face her after having basically abandoned her and then you know

[01:27:47] abandoned Rand and you know then Rand died or well didn't die but died and uh and now nine yave is gone and Matt didn't help her and um that was a like there's a lot going through his

[01:28:04] head and a lot of guilt in there while we saw jovial Matt last week I expected that would be what happened with the Gwaine but I still felt disappointed I was still yelling at the TV like

[01:28:18] go to her just go um let me see um yeah we we kind of talked about it right but the the I think the quote that the rich the rich eat at their parties while the poorest starve out in the

[01:28:31] four gate um out in car hind uh the fireworks I thought were actually pretty cool like I don't it looked very similar to the Gandalf fireworks in Lord of the Rings uh a little bit fancier than

[01:28:45] what we see so Logaine actually mentioned like loose there in Tel Avon's blood rolls through my veins I can hear his whispers and I'm like oh like what what I mean so we've only seen Logaine be spoken

[01:29:03] to by his by like what side in I believe one time when he when we we watched him uh almost kill the king of Gildon and and I feel like I heard a female voice and in his in his head as opposed to I

[01:29:20] think actually I think there might have been two um and maybe it was maybe one of them was loose there in I thought I have a memory of it being maybe one male and one female voice yeah

[01:29:30] I definitely heard a female but I feel like there might have been like another male like the black form uh behind him yeah it's hard with him to know what at this point is

[01:29:46] truth and what is his madness right um or his ego right although yeah my last note uh the last note was uh uh a Gwain like Sherriam like I don't tell you to be I don't tell you this to be cruel

[01:30:03] but your friend is dead like oh what the Jesus okay um I get that every sadness and every loss each Isidae has to deal with on their own but it's a sisterhood there is some sense of tact

[01:30:22] and some sense of support um that uh that you would you would expect even to the newest novice like some sense of hey you're going through a rough time and and we see that and if you want to

[01:30:38] sit and have some sort of emotional support we can talk but it's not this instant but you know you we do care about you um even my boss right like I go to work and my boss

[01:30:51] it might say hey something happened with my parents oh hey uh you know he may not mean it but he's he says hey I hope everything is is better and I hope that uh I hope everything goes well and

[01:31:04] maybe the the concept of Isidae is is super super cold and or maybe it's no offense but maybe it's women maybe women do that where it's they they go hard on one another and uh and then she then

[01:31:20] Goyne was trying to actually energize the arches and then Elaine's like you have no idea how many people have come down here to try to do that and you know the worst they look at are the

[01:31:30] the best thing that could happen is a nice that catches you and you get in trouble for it but that's kind of that was kind of where I was like oh like Elaine knows way more than we're

[01:31:40] you know than than we have have had revealed to us so far yeah she has a lot of knowledge that she has been taught through her years of yeah I mean you think about the rural town that they

[01:31:54] came from at the is it the two rivers um you know and versus someone who's had the advantage of probably libraries of literature um and and tutors and people guiding her through all of this

[01:32:10] all her years makes sense you know jumping back to your other point about the harshness of the Isidae I mean I feel like the only one that we've seen any sort of softness or approachability to

[01:32:26] has been is it Alana um everyone else has been and I feel like that was even called out explicitly when when Nine Nave did the false like when we thought she left the arch and the whole reason

[01:32:41] she was leaving it was just sort of like screw you guys you're you know making me hurt and not care about all these people that I should care about and and basically like I don't want to be

[01:32:56] this cold powerful woman um you know I want to be you say Alana well I was saying Nine Nave is saying this is the reason she was leaving I was saying Alana

[01:33:08] is really the only Isidae I feel like I've seen any sort of softness from that really all of them and it seems from this episode sort of inherent to their training that they're shedding off any

[01:33:20] sort of softness or expressive love for people and it was I think Nine Nave when she was talking to Agwayne again this was still actually the arch but we thought she was out of the arch and she

[01:33:38] was saying goodbye to Agwayne and she said you know you're one of the few who I think um could actually be truly entitled to be Isidae because you're actually going to be a servant of all

[01:33:54] because you you know have a big heart and care and it seems like yeah it seems like that sort of gets trained out of Isidae and it's probably you know similar to you know just like in Star Wars

[01:34:08] the Jedi like having those close connections to a human it can to another human where you're going to prioritize your love for that single relationship over the greater good often when it

[01:34:22] comes down to it like it can be a weakness for you um so I get why they want that but I don't know it seems pretty extreme the amount of coldness absolutely that's all I had for notes

[01:34:36] same okay oh well wait what's that I think we need to take a quick a quick moment of silence uh for Uno I know we already talked about it but no RIP Uno RIP Uno all right that was it oh that

[01:34:53] was okay that was that was a much shorter moment of silence that uh that was expecting but that's fair that's fair uh did you did you see and maybe it had been it had been shown before did you see

[01:35:04] his eye patch I did that it was like there was a red eye carved on the thing and that was something that I had not noticed before in the show but it was very very specifically in the book

[01:35:20] yeah that was pretty pretty awesome I'm very sad that we won't get more of no okay well in that case uh that's our show thanks for listening everybody please give us

[01:35:34] feedback I got the post up a couple days ago like even though I it wasn't the day that I said I would but like I got the post up if you guys are watching the show please just say something to us

[01:35:47] we want to know that you guys are either listening or long story short is we want to hear from you guys if you guys are watching the show and I want to know if you guys are as impressed with

[01:35:59] Zoey Robbins as fucking I am because that was I thought it was phenomenal um yeah hey uh I'm gonna go get off of here and I'm gonna go put a comment post up for episode four

[01:36:09] even though I haven't watched it yet and uh and then you're sending a voicemail or something but if you want to write in recorded voicemail you can do it at podcast or you could send it to

[01:36:22] at talk at podcastica.com um I'll like I said I'll put that facebook post up uh for the comment thread at facebook.com slash podcastica and we're also on X at podcastica both Veronica and I

[01:36:42] like did the the X motion with our with our hands um and uh podcast wise I know that uh we're coming up on the new legacy Godzilla show or whatever uh on Run For Your Lives they're gonna uh Daphne

[01:37:00] and Payker gonna cover that uh with I think maybe Rima I think she's coming on um and uh and then White Lotus season two which I still haven't finished season one uh is is coming out I think

[01:37:17] that's this they're they might be recording it tonight or last night what are you listening to um you know have I listened to it yet I'm not sure if it's out yet but I know also on Run For Your

[01:37:27] Lives that Payker Daphne I think are also doing Deep Impact or just did Deep Impact oh yeah yeah so that's when I'm excited because that was that was the movie I loved I was I was always an

[01:37:39] Armageddon guy to revisit I was an Armageddon guy it was the comedy that that did it for me like Armageddon was way funnier to be fair I never actually watched Deep Impact

[01:37:52] because in my head there it's always like a one or the other it's always it was always like a competition like uh you know Armageddon and Deep Impact or uh you know whenever you had

[01:38:04] one type of Jurassic Park versus Forest Gump or rather I'm sorry Shawshank Redemption versus Forest Gump and uh it was it was Jurassic Park and Last Action Hero and uh I was a movie kid growing

[01:38:18] up so it was always like one versus the other and Armageddon was it was it was funny and you saw jokes in the in the trailers Steve Ucimie like going bonkers out on this asteroid um and then

[01:38:33] you know you see Tee Leonie and Morgan Freeman being super serious and what Elijah would right and Deep Impact well in Deep Impact Elijah would which explains a lot of where my young girls

[01:38:47] mind was at and why that movie was so impactful for me oh so yeah Deep Impact maybe I'll actually give me a reason to actually go watch the movie and uh but next time on this podcast

[01:39:02] hopefully come in uh late next week before or maybe about the time that the fifth episode comes out real-time season two episode four daughter of the night who do you think the daughter of the night is

[01:39:16] hmm I don't know we didn't see Moira Moiraine at all this episode oh yeah we totally didn't see Moiraine so maybe her but I don't know maybe uh is it Celine I'm suspicious of her okay

[01:39:32] maybe Celine that might be a stretch but we'll see yeah I mean uh there is uh actually one thing that I did want to mention was that that we we saw Leanne um who was one of the three that so

[01:39:44] was Sherriam and Leandron and Leanne who was is the keeper uh the second in command behind the the Amarillo seat uh she looked very she looked very pained was that woman it just looked very

[01:39:57] pained yeah she like she's very like bony and she's kind of a bitch but anyway yeah so next time daughter of the night uh I will be watching it here very quickly same and uh I think I think that's

[01:40:15] our show then all right let the dragon right again on the winds of time thanks for listening