13: "Daughter of the Night" (The Wheel of Time E2E4)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Greg. And I'm Veronica. And this is The Wheel of Time Cast. This week we're covering The Wheel of Time season 2 episode 4 Daughter of

[00:00:31] the Night. Alright, so Daughter of the Night was, I had an idea of what to expect. But I thought it was a good title. How about you hit us with that Amazon summary? So the very informative Amazon

[00:00:49] summary this week is Morene searches for Rand, Will Nye Eve mourns her losses. So in all honesty, I didn't pick up that Morene was looking for Rand when she showed up in Hyrene,

[00:01:05] which is, I absolutely called it carhine for 20 years. But yeah, so hey, they gave me something that I had not realized until probably a good 15, 20 minutes into the episode until she started asking about the redheaded boy. How'd you like it overall? Yeah, I thought it was good.

[00:01:26] But I didn't know what Daughter of the Night met. And so until the very end, I spent the whole episode wondering, is it this person? Is it this person? Is it this person?

[00:01:37] So it was kind of fun. Yeah, I continue to be really pleased with the pacing. I feel like we're getting interesting mysteries and reveals pretty much every episode. So yeah, I enjoyed it.

[00:01:50] This one was super dense. I mean, I guess the last few have all been like just a lot of story in one episode. It does very much remind me of Game of Thrones where they're going from place to place,

[00:02:05] but they're still spending a significant period of time with most of the characters. We didn't get a ton of pair in our mat this week, but we got some interesting things. Absolutely. All right, so let's start off with your three questions. What do we got?

[00:02:29] Okay, number one. So my non-book reader question is, can you tell us more about the different ways that a bond between an ISA die and a worder are broken or I guess they can either be severed

[00:02:47] or masked? How often does this type of thing happen with worders and ISA die? And what is the significance between the different ways they're able to do it? Okay, so the bond is the same bond. Like maybe slightly different from ISA die to ISA die,

[00:03:08] but just the weaves, but the weave is basically the same. And it is put into a water and it lets them share thoughts, feelings, maybe not thoughts, but feelings with their ISA die or rather with their water. It also gives the water extended strength. It kind of

[00:03:32] extends I think a little bit of the slowing of aging now as far as so basically that's the way that I'm familiar with how to bond. How a bond can be broken. There's a little bit different. So

[00:03:52] the things that we've heard are a bond, we saw it in season one when the ISA die was killed and her water killed himself. So that was just flat out it was ripped from you. It was

[00:04:09] I said it was there in full force. You sensed terror and then you felt her pain as she died and you shared in that it was that's almost like a mind meld, except it's more like an emotional

[00:04:24] meld. And then that's ripped away from you masked is kind of like you almost like put a cloth over it. Almost like putting a cloth over a camera, right? You can you may still feel small bits and pieces if they're especially strong emotion or something

[00:04:46] like that. You can feel something but it's muffled. Then I think that it is a matter of the like when an ISA die is severed or stilled. All right, so the last one kind of that we are

[00:05:13] talking about is where a what's a little weird about lands is that it was masked so he didn't have all those senses and whatnot. And then she was cut off from the source.

[00:05:27] And so I think you might still have that sense of loss, but it's not that sense of trauma per se. Like the masks, you know, it's going to come back. You can still feel that someone is there,

[00:05:41] but it's not, you know, but you don't have that full force. And then if you lose that again, that you lose something, but you don't, it's not that like it's not that not as traumatic. That makes sense. So in the event that Moraine suddenly had her power stored,

[00:06:07] is that bond still intact once that's reinstated or would it be severed? That is an excellent question. I have no idea. Okay. All right, this is another my second question we'll move on, but it's still related.

[00:06:27] So can an ISA die take on as many warders as they want or is a Lana's situation very, very unique? And is there a limit? Like could she take I know everyone was joking about a third, could she, is that allowed? Are there rules around this?

[00:06:45] I imagine like it is not specifically stated like you shall only have whatever it's basically what can you handle? And so I think that you could have upwards of, you know, a half dozen waters.

[00:07:03] There were, there were ISA die in the books that had multiple orders, typically of the green Ajah. And they were known as like the battle Ajah. So it would make sense that they would have

[00:07:16] the most protection and most support. I don't know if this really know if there are rules, but if I don't think that a Lana is super unique. Okay. All right. I'm sort of torn on my last one.

[00:07:31] I have two options, but I feel like both of them your answer is probably going to be that you can't tell me a whole lot. I'll go with this one. So it, I think just like we've seen some of it,

[00:07:43] but if you as a book reader can at least summarize without spoiling anything sort of the significance of the town of, I've been calling it Carhan too. It's how do we say it? Kareen? Kareen? Yeah. Kireen. Kireen. Okay. So what is the significance of this town?

[00:08:04] Obviously we've seen a little peek into it, but can you put that all together for me and help me understand how this town sort of is looked at across this short world? Sure. So Carhan, or sorry,

[00:08:18] Kireen is, it's the capital city. It's not a town. Okay. What we have seen is the different places that we've seen. We've seen the four gate, right? That's what like the announcement was the beginning of last episode. It says the four gate. The four gate

[00:08:37] is like basically outside of the fortified walls. Okay. And then on the inside, that's where you'd have streets and merchants and businesses and taverns and all that. And then you would have like the palace where the queen lives. So Carhan, sorry, damn it, Kireen is the capital city

[00:09:04] of the country of Kireen. Okay. So we've talked about different countries, so there's Kireen. There is Andor. There is, I can't, it's not, so Ibudar is a city. Araduman. There's Tir. There is

[00:09:26] Shianar, which we saw in season one. Right. There's Ilyan. So we kind of went through a list of them earlier on this season. But yeah, Kireen is the capital city of a country.

[00:09:46] Okay. So we have not seen a ton of that. We've seen a few places. We've seen where the nobles and you're having a party and the four gate. But other than that, Moiraine's sister

[00:09:56] mentioned that her son was marrying the queen. Right. And so that's like in that city. Okay. Yeah, I heard that mention and I think I didn't realize this was a capital city and didn't have

[00:10:09] the placement of like is the queen here or is this somewhere else he's going? So that was helpful. I'm glad that's the question I went with. So yeah, those were my three questions.

[00:10:19] Okay, awesome. All right. Well, let's go ahead and take a little break and then we will get into our points. All right. And welcome back everybody. Hey, Greg, want to start getting into our top

[00:10:32] three highlights? For sure. All right. So I, you go to fight go first? Yeah, go for it. Okay, cool. All right. Well, I am going to, I'm going to go with one of those reveals that

[00:10:44] you were talking about. This is a very dense episode with a bunch of different kind of story lines, but I'm just going to say Leandron is like, we knew she was hard. We knew she was, you know, we knew she was kind of like, okay, kind of bitchy.

[00:11:07] But we didn't know she was a dark friend. And we didn't know that she was working for the Shadow and the reveal that she has basically delivered Min and Matt to Ishmael, that was pretty

[00:11:24] crazy. And I thought it was well done. And that actually kind of ties into the Min point, like into the Min storyline in that, oh, Min's doing this. I won't let you hurt Matt,

[00:11:40] but she's doing it to get rid of her, her voices, her, her, her curse of vision. Because she was taken advantage of when she was a child and just forced to look and see and basically be

[00:11:55] tortured by other people's ill fortune or futures. I liked how it was done. Leandron was very much kind of in the background of a lot of scenes. And then, you know, she sits down, sits 98

[00:12:08] down and you're like, oh man, she's like giving her good advice and take what, you know, find a piece of this world that is yours and hold on to it. And when it's gone, find another. And the, you

[00:12:23] really start to have kind of empathy for her. And you understand kind of the curse of the Isidae as far as living for long periods of time. We talked about a couple weeks ago when

[00:12:33] 98 discovered Leandron's son, you're like, oh man, I kind of feel bad for her. And, you know, you find, I can't remember the order, but I believe that we find out that Min has been delivered to

[00:12:45] Ishmael and immediately following that she takes out 98, Egwayne and Elaine. And now you're like, oh, shit. Now, all of the, if you go back and you watch her talking about it, there's almost like a longing. There's a pain there that she wants to, that it feels like she

[00:13:10] wants to lift or relieve. And so I thought that her being a, her as the villain and Kate Fleetwood I think is doing a very good job of embodying that very heavy is the heart that has to pay the piper.

[00:13:30] And she, like she actually, she honestly seemed sorry that she was having to do this to 98, maybe not the other two. The fact that she was like, oh, daughter of Endor, you're a complication. Whatever.

[00:13:43] I was not expecting it and I still sort of left like just a little confused, like I didn't feel, she's obviously acting as a dark friend, but I still just didn't know if I fully

[00:13:58] understood her long game. Like is this a means to an end different than what seems sort of obvious? Like, her partnering with Ishmael makes it seem very clear that she's a dark friend and sort of

[00:14:13] on a different side. But did you know that it was Ishmael? Did she know that it's one of the forsaken? I hadn't even thought of that. I guess I was thinking of like maybe she has a long game

[00:14:23] where she's sort of using him as a double cross. I didn't even think about the fact that he you know, could misrepresent himself as well. I was trying to wrap my head around why was she so concerned with helping Nine Eve progress through the arches

[00:14:44] and so upset when she didn't? Was that true? Was that a show? It seemed like she was distraught even when no one was watching. Knowing what we know now, we know that at the beginning of

[00:14:56] the season, there was a meeting talking about, you know, the betweeva of dark friends and the forsaken or whoever was in that room. And they were talking about Rand. And so they know Rand's name, which means they probably know their traveling or his traveling companions. So

[00:15:17] maybe Nine Eve and Aguayne could be used as bait to lure Rand in somewhere. Maybe. That makes sense. But why help her progress through the arches? Like, why not do that while there

[00:15:33] were novices because it made it easier for her to leave? Yeah, because she couldn't leave the tower until she was accepted. And she couldn't, and Leandra wouldn't wasn't allowed to teach

[00:15:45] her until she was accepted. So it was, hey, let's get her to the point where I can have influence over her, give her some what feels like heartfelt advice and then drop this bomb of, oh, hey,

[00:15:56] this, this happened. So, you know, don't do anything rash. But here's this horrible thing that's happening to your friends. I think that I think that she intentionally, she told Nine Eve that with the thought that she would use a secret passage that she's, you know,

[00:16:12] that she followed the Injuring out of and that she would probably get Aguayne and bring, you know, head out towards the two rivers. And so she was able to ambush her them in that particular spot. Interesting. Still seems like she probably could have

[00:16:29] shown them both the secret way out. But I guess she had to build that trust with Nine Eve for Nine Eve to believe her when she was telling her about friends being captured. And I guess the friends really were captured, so she also needed to wait

[00:16:43] on opportunity. But I don't know, it just seemed like a convoluted path to getting there. But I get what you're saying. Like it does seem like well as long as this and this and this

[00:16:56] and this all happen, then I'll be good to go. I do wonder where or whom she is taking them to though. Or even how she's going to get them out of the tower. Like I get there out of the tower,

[00:17:12] per se. But I mean, does she have like a group of people that's, is she going to channel them, you know, throughout the through the town through Tarvalon? Yeah. Maybe she puts them on a little

[00:17:23] cart and cuts them around. That's very interesting. Curious to see that play out. All right. So what's your first point? Well, do you still have my first point, which I had called tricksy Leandron. But so I'll go on to my next. I'll skip to the next one. So

[00:17:41] one thing that I really was enjoying this episode, and I think I had just complained about it an episode or two ago, that I needed more backstory on Moiraine. And we really, we did start to get

[00:17:54] that it's still very muddy. We just got little hints of things that gave us clues about her. But it was much more than we've had this far. And so I think, you know, one of the things that

[00:18:08] Alana said to Lawn when she was taught or Leand when she was talking to him was she referenced something that happened 20 years ago. And I wish you had known Moiraine before whatever it was happened. And so insinuating that she, you know, something changed in her changed her from

[00:18:29] water to ice 20 years ago. And so we don't know what that was. So but that was interesting to get that and to realize, you know, that even Leand is very unaware of a lot of Moiraine. But then the

[00:18:44] other big piece of this episode that gave us so much insight into her was meeting her younger, older sister Ann Vair, who has, you know, significantly outaged her at this point. And at first, you know, you spend the episode sort of feeling pretty

[00:19:01] sad for Ann Vair. You know, her reaction is pretty shocked at Moiraine just showing up and she seems pretty hurt and very much like Moiraine has kind of all the power in their relationship.

[00:19:15] But then, you know, by the end, she realizes or reveals to the audience and to Moiraine that she actually does have, you know, some power and some pride herself that she's going to show.

[00:19:29] And so, you know, she reveals that, you know, their uncle apparently did something that ruined their very wealthy, prominent family. And around that same time, Moiraine left to go off to train to become an Isidae. And it seems like several of the family members sort of expected Moiraine

[00:19:50] might come back to rescue them. And she never showed. And so there's a lot of bitterness where Ann sort of tries to defend herself and say she wasn't able to come back. And her sister cuts

[00:20:03] her off like, I don't want to hear it. Like, absolutely, you could have come back. It does seem like maybe Moiraine wasn't completely aware of quite how dire the situation had gotten for them. I mean, her sister references begging, you know, for scraps of food left over from

[00:20:18] parties and things. But I thought it was pretty, you know, powerful when she stands up to her and says like this is not your home anymore. You don't get to just come parade in here and use us and

[00:20:29] then leave again after you sort of left us flat. And, you know, my son's going to marry the queen and you're not going to mess this up for me. Like I've fixed it without you. You don't get

[00:20:38] to come back here. So, you know, I really just found all that interesting. And I still want to know more about her. I want to know why she didn't go back and what it was that happened 20

[00:20:50] years ago that really changed things for her. But yeah, I was pleasantly surprised that I guess if I complain about it, they will show it to me. So, I think the only other really the thing I

[00:21:04] literally like laughed out loud about is that when we rain first, you know, barges into the house and she's like, look, I want to keep a low profile. Like I'm not here. You know, I need to go

[00:21:18] run these errands and that's it. And the next thing you know, she is parading around town with all her jewels on in this like ridiculous giant blue vibrant blue dress. I'm like, how is this keeping a low profile? Like you are announcing to everyone that you are here.

[00:21:36] And you know, it's like, it was supposed to be this big reveal that her sister knew everything that she'd been up to because she's got spies and you know, that was sort of

[00:21:47] this power play of like, hey, I kind of, you know, I'm back to running this town. I know what's going on. But I was sort of like, would it really have been that hard to know where she

[00:21:55] was going? Like anybody was going to spot this previously very prominent woman who is a well known Isidae and is traipsing about in this ridiculously fine dress. So I found that kind of

[00:22:10] funny. So I will defend that a little bit. And the reason I will defend it is that it's been decades. No one knows what Moiraine looks like unless she, you know, I mean, unless she looks the same as she did, you know, a couple of decades ago.

[00:22:31] And there are nobility who will go around and ask things and she can she can say that her, you know, she is a noble woman or something like that. We didn't necessarily get that. But it is

[00:22:46] now that you pointed out it is kind of funny that I want to keep a low profile. Oh, wait, I need to order a dress from this person and get this and that and whatever. Yeah, that's that's that's good. That's a good point.

[00:23:02] So one of the things about Anvir was that she was the one who actually spoke to Rand about the game of houses last episode. And so to think that Moiraine's sister was the one who

[00:23:13] provided him some sort of guidance into the the the game of houses. I was glad to see that character again, because she I thought the actress the actor did well. I agree. And I really, I think I was slightly annoyed last week at that whole scene. It just

[00:23:33] felt like they were really drawing out this storyline of getting in the line. And so then it made me feel like, Well, let me stick my foot in my mouth a little bit because they were

[00:23:42] obviously setting us up for introing to this character and what being high society in this town really means. And it sort of gave more weight to things that happened this week, as well as just, you know, gave us a little bit of insight into this character. So

[00:23:58] yeah, I was I was actually pretty pleasantly surprised to see her again and very surprised to find out who she was. Yeah, it was I thought it was it was well well put together anything else? No, I think I think that got it for that piece.

[00:24:16] All right. So point number two. All right, well, I'll go ahead and hit up. I like I think I'm gonna save the best for last, right? So what I think of is the best. So I'll talk about land and going out to wherever Alana

[00:24:36] is from and wherever her family is. So based on Moirae's sisters, you know, relationship with her sister and how much older her sister looks, I don't know like how different in age Alana is like, was that woman and man? Was that her daughter?

[00:24:56] Was it her sister? Was it a niece or a, you know, an aunt or I mean, I guess not aunt but yeah, just didn't know where they all fit together. But it did. I liked the concept

[00:25:10] of the family dinners and whatnot. I was a little confused because they flashed from Nine Yave, like looking off into the distance and then you see land. And I was like, is this

[00:25:22] her flashing back to like in the arches? And then you see Maxim and Ivan. And again, it took me it took me a few seconds to be like, is this back like in her her imagination or in the

[00:25:36] arches? Oh, wait, no, no. This is oh, right, right, right. Because lands with with Alana and her waters. Everything just felt a little like bright and happy though. I know what you mean. It felt like

[00:25:48] almost too happy that also made me sort of question. It was like we were in the shire and it was very, very much a cheerful, happy family setting, which was just weird.

[00:26:03] So Alana and her family, very sassy. Where are you going to put the third water? And you're like, whoa, it's a little fresh there. I did find it interesting that that Alana, you know, the

[00:26:22] oh land has the other waters who follow him around. And every time he goes to literally to take a pee, you've got got a couple dudes or one of the one of a couple dudes following him around and

[00:26:34] making sure that he's not going to hurt himself. But so then Alana comes and says, you know what? We're not going to like basically what's happened as I've used the boys to soften you up so that I can come in and just basically punch you in the face.

[00:26:54] So basically like, hey, we're going to the tower 98 is going through the arches. She's going to be looking for a water soon. Oh, as you mentioned earlier, 20 years ago, I wish you'd known Moiraine before that. I did find that Maxim was giving him advice by the well

[00:27:13] and then Ivan was giving him advice while during meditation it all kind of just came back to the same thing. It's like, follow your heart if you and by your heart I mean,

[00:27:27] what it like what your your sense of purpose, you know, land was obviously very I'm not going to repeat my past failures. So I'm not going to go to naive and and try to connect with her.

[00:27:39] The last thing, you know, right before, you know, the big reveal of the end was them finding the poem that the Bael Domen had had given to Moiraine and then land had subsequently

[00:27:52] stolen. I'll read it when we get to when we get to that. I have I have most of it here. Yeah, I did enjoy Lance. Lance story and we have a little bit, you know, some some stuff about

[00:28:04] about Lance character in this particular episode. It seemed very like very similar to how it seemed like he was in Nine Yeas vision a little bit lighter of foot and less burdened and he's got his hair down. Literally. Yeah, so that was that was my my number two.

[00:28:22] I really loved some of the quotes as they were giving him advice. I thought Maxim his quote, have you ever known a marriage that is exactly the same as another? Basically just like everybody can sort of work out and negotiate what's right for them.

[00:28:42] And I thought that was good advice. Yeah. And then Yvonne calls out that land is taking a thousand cuts for her one because he keeps replaying that insult in his head. And I

[00:28:54] thought, I mean, I know I definitely do that kind of thing too. And his next line was people don't understand that the quiet ones are quiet because the conversation is always playing out in

[00:29:04] our own heads. I just thought, yeah, some of I feel like many of these episodes I'm writing down like multiple quotes that people say. I'm curious if there are things that you ever notice

[00:29:16] that they pull directly from the book or if this is all unique, but it's stuff that feels like oh, I want to write that down like I want to remember that little quote. There are

[00:29:25] lines. I believe actually blood calls blood is a chapter title. So like I think that there are lines that are ripped directly from the book. But it's interesting that you called out blood

[00:29:41] calls blood. That's actually I wrote it down and put it up on my wall because I really know I'm just kidding. Yeah, there are lines like I said, there are lines that are pulled directly out of the book. But

[00:29:56] but I do think that I really think that the writers have done a really good job in presenting not only the information and the actors have done a great job in presenting it, but

[00:30:08] but they the lines and the presentation really kind of gives an insight into each person's character. I'm not going to say that this is a really quotable show, but there are definitely lines that kind of resound to me. Yeah, totally. What do you got for your next one?

[00:30:28] So my next one, I am going to jump to Perrin and finding out that he is a wolf brother, which again, that's I keep complaining about stuff. So that will just hurry up and get to the reveal.

[00:30:44] By was pretty satisfied that at least we had it confirmed that he's not going to borg into a wolf. He's a wolf brother, which means he can communicate through these visions with wolves.

[00:30:59] And I think Elias was sort of coaching him through it. And he started out by saying, I am them and so are you when Perrin was questioning him kind of like, who's following who?

[00:31:11] Are we following the wolves? Do they know where they're going? Do we know where they're going? And Elias basically like revealing like, yeah, we're all moving together. And so then we see a little bit of what those visions look like that the wolves are able to

[00:31:27] communicate. And we also find out that Perrin has without his awareness been sharing his dream visions with Elias and the pack or is it Elias? Elias? I call him Elias. Just because that's how I

[00:31:44] read it. You know, they know a lot about him more than he knows about them because he's been sharing a lot with them. We find out that they, you know, we knew the wolves came and saved him

[00:31:56] from the, from the white, is it the white cloaks? Yeah, the white cloaks. But I don't think we knew until this episode that Elias was with them and kind of running that and that they'd been

[00:32:09] following him for a long time. And we also found out that they have to be really careful around the Isidae that the Isidae are suspicious because they maybe don't fully understand them.

[00:32:22] I'm sure we'll, you know, continue to reveal more about that relationship as episodes go on. But I was just excited to finally see, I think I'm excited to see Perrin finally getting some answers and

[00:32:35] going to this. I still go back to, I guess it was last episode Ishael telling him that, you know, kind of the more beasts like you become, the more you belong to me. And so I

[00:32:45] guess there is danger in Perrin going down this path. But I think I feel hope that he'll be able to navigate that appropriately. Yeah, I think that I think that once he not just accepts it,

[00:33:00] but like kind of becomes it one of the cool things that I did like about this type of storyline, like this whole concept in the books was that so he interpreted that the, you know, the

[00:33:19] wolf's name was Hopper and hey, he'll show you when he's ready. And Hopper is in the book and they communicate not just in like visions. It's more like in senses. So it's like what's, you know,

[00:33:38] this one wolf's name, it's hard to like it doesn't, you can't really put it in words. It's more like, you know, the feeling of due on the morning grass on a day of summer. And

[00:33:54] like it's very kind of poetic. It's like, you know, this one, oh Hopper, okay. He's, you know, the wolf's jumping around. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, that was something that I really did appreciate in the books. And I think they're doing a decent job, although we

[00:34:13] haven't spent a ton of time with the wolves or Perrin. I'm looking forward to getting more of that storyline. Yeah, I mean, that must be a hard thing to try to figure out how to make

[00:34:25] how to convert sort of scenario up here on the screen. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about how what a challenge that must have been for them to try to come up with that and still

[00:34:36] be able to represent sort of what you said of like, you know, and I think that came across of like when he called him Hopper and Elias was sort of like, well close enough, but I think

[00:34:47] he sort of got that it's like, it's about the interpretation and I think he said it's a lot of instinct of figuring it out. It's not Hopper per se, but it's like the feeling of always,

[00:34:59] you know, the joy and how good it feels to fly through the air and all that. Yeah, yeah, I got it. I thought it was good. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. I've just recently been watching, started following an Instagram account of a woman that teaches

[00:35:15] her dogs to speak using buttons. And so I've been thinking a lot just about like communicating with dogs and how like with my dog, you know, I know what a word means. I say, do you want to see?

[00:35:29] And to him he thinks that means like, I think if I say you want to see or you want to look, he thinks that means go specifically look out a window and just like the complicated

[00:35:40] sort of translation, not even just from like one human language to another, but like trying to get a dog to understand what a human word means. And so it was sort of interesting then to watch this

[00:35:52] episode and see a different way of obviously a supernatural way, but just something in line with something I've been thinking about in my real life about, you know, interesting ways of communicating and how interpretations can sort of vary. But I don't know if that's

[00:36:08] a little bit of a tangent, you can take it out if you want to. Nope, that's the end. All right, I'm looking forward to more, more parent and in that storyline.

[00:36:21] Yep. Okay, so I could talk about a Gwaine and Elaine, but I'm not going to. What I'm going to do is I'm going to let, I'm going to let you take the big one. But I'm going to talk about

[00:36:42] Ishmael and whatever ceremony he was doing at the beginning of the episode. Perfect. This is something from the books. And I don't want to be a, you know, oh, well, this is what it was like a lot. But this was something that I never was able to visualize

[00:37:03] until now. They are giving me a visualization that I was not really able to to understand until seeing it here. They talk about the seal or the seals on the dark ones present

[00:37:22] and that some were closer to the surface than others. And I didn't quite get it until they, they were talking about like, because you see Ishmael in the beginning and he,

[00:37:37] you know, he is standing on a seal and he's just, he sees his, you know, his, his seal, the one where he was freed above him using whatever spell or incantation or whatever it was

[00:37:52] to break through the seal he was standing on, which then revealed, you know, a person, a woman covered in blood. And so I give the show a lot of credit because I maybe this is

[00:38:10] exactly what Robert Jordan was, was trying to portray the fact that it was like, I was like, I didn't quite get it until oh, this makes way more sense. I, you know, where these dark caverns

[00:38:22] and we're going from in these caves and we have to go find a seal and, you know, perform this particular incantation with this particular set of power and, and all that in order to

[00:38:34] release another. And so I, like I said, I'm just giving it, giving the show and the producers and whatnot a lot of credit. I really liked the actor who portrayed Ishmael this, this episode. Like,

[00:38:50] I thought that his, his, his intonation, his, the way that he spoke was, I thought, I thought it was great. And but I do, I did see, you know, kind of like some of the,

[00:39:01] the outfit he was wearing when he was sitting across from men. It was very much like businessman, very button, literally buttoned up, very modern. Yeah, definitely. I actually, like, re-round this and like entrance scene to watch it twice because I was trying to

[00:39:25] tell, like, I couldn't even tell for sure that it was a woman at first. And I hadn't really, I don't always pay the most attention to the episode title before I, like as I start watching. And so I think, yeah, I was really confused out who it was.

[00:39:45] I was confused about whether we were under the seal that was broken when he was sort of there with Rand at the, that was the eye of the world. Or if this was another one of the seals, like one

[00:40:00] of the ones that had the inscription on it that was passed off to Moraine. And if it's not, then is he going around to all these seals and releasing several forsaken? Or did he have to

[00:40:16] break several seals just to release the daughter of the knight? Like, yeah. I had a lot, I still have a lot of questions about just understanding sort of the broader details of all of that.

[00:40:29] All right. So here is what, you know, I have to go back and watch episode one of this season again. But it has been six months, five months since the eye of the world. But I don't know when

[00:40:49] Bael Domen got that seal. But the key being is that Ishmael, I think what happened was that Ishmael put his vision, you know, in the eye of the world and then used Rand to break his seal,

[00:41:10] to let him out. And then shortly thereafter, he went and found Lanfeer seal, Lanfeer out. And then shortly thereafter, Bael Domen comes into possession of the piece of Quindiar and then it ends up getting past two moraine eventually. So Lanfeer has been out and about for

[00:41:36] months. Well, yeah. I mean, established an end in the foregate in Perrine. So the fact that we're seeing all of these things kind of out of order is interesting. I think it's really interesting. And you don't like, I was thinking that it was possible that it was happening

[00:41:56] all around the same time. But it was obviously, I'll mention it when you get into the last thing. I did really like it. I thought it was really, really cool and really well done. And I can see

[00:42:09] the progression of what happened now. And I think that visually, yes, I have a little bit of background knowledge. Well, okay, I have a lot of background knowledge. And it's awesome

[00:42:22] seeing those things come to life on the screen. But I still, I think they're making it easy enough for a non-book reader to follow. Yeah. I have a lot of questions and I want to know more just because

[00:42:36] I think I enjoy like delving deeper into that lore stuff. And I want to know how all these seals work and all the ins and outs of how the source works and how Isidae are trained

[00:42:49] and things. But I don't need to know all those details to follow the show. And they're definitely making it, I think, interesting and approachable without knowing all of those details. All right. All right. Are we ready? Go ahead. I'm ready. So obviously, my last point is the

[00:43:10] reveal of the daughter of the night who I spent part of that episode wondering if it was going to be Moiraine. I thought maybe it was going to be Leandron when she started to act a little

[00:43:21] funny. I even suspected for a moment, Alana, when she was being so secretive about sneaking around behind land. I did not and I felt really dumb when the reveal happened that I did not

[00:43:40] suspect. But I didn't even as it was coming out that I started to suspect Celine was something other than what she had portrayed herself to be, I still didn't make the connection that she might

[00:43:55] be the person that we saw at the beginning until like, you know, the second seconds before she's revealing herself and then I made it so felt really pretty dumb on missing all the signs on

[00:44:08] that. I do have to just back up for one minute and tell you if anyone ever invites you to their secret family cabin at somewhere named Kinslayer's dagger that is a red flag and you say no.

[00:44:26] It's like she's talking about it like it's this idyllic place and just nobody's batting an eye at Kinslayer's dagger being the name of it. So that's my PSA don't go even with a woman

[00:44:41] you've known for a while to a secret cabin at Kinslayer's dagger because it will turn out that she is a bloody demon of some sort apparently, you know, I think we got a lot of reveals at

[00:44:57] the cabin of, you know, the attack of Rand by the, is it a fade or a shade I keep calling it the wrong thing. Fade, okay, by a fade and, you know, I really thought last episode that she when they

[00:45:17] were doing it and he started, you know, like channeling and she said I'm not afraid of you. I wasn't certain I know we talked about it but I really felt like she knew something was happening

[00:45:29] and so then she acted so shocked when he took that fade out and seemed to show real fear and, you know, as the fade had been attacking him I was wondering is she up to something like

[00:45:49] is she in on this somehow but then it seemed like this genuine fear when Rand is explaining that he can channel and that he's hid it from her and so I did just keep wavering on whether I believed her

[00:46:04] didn't believe her suspected her and then, you know, she pretty immediately calms down and sort of is like well it's okay that you lied to me and I get it and you should be yourself and

[00:46:19] you shouldn't resist channeling and so then I was like that's weird like she's sort of just such quick emotional twists. Like blase about oh you're a man who can channel, oh right.

[00:46:33] But then she takes him again into her secret cabin which, you know, she had revealed was not her family cabin but where she had come with her previous lover who was very powerful and very angry

[00:46:45] I think and she used a couple other things to describe him and so, you know, when she was doing those things I was suspecting her like what was she with? Previous dragon or the like,

[00:46:55] you know, the dark one or something like that. Maybe a smile. Rand decides cool I'll go into the cabin with you. Oh sure time me up no big deal. Well he was kind of like Celine. What's up with these? I mean he wasn't trying terribly hard to resist.

[00:47:14] I mean, I get it. But yeah, he did act a little like what but he was okay with it and then she starts to reveal herself and I was really hoping we were going to get her

[00:47:24] morphing fully into her blood covered form but I was not disappointed when the sword came through her chest so I'm okay. I'm hoping we will still get that and you know Rand was pretty

[00:47:39] angry but moraine is always able to pull out that I'm not lying to you because I can't lie and it always that's like the magic line that she says to calm people down. Yeah, so I will insert

[00:47:53] that it's possible that she's not bound by the three oaths anymore. Oh because if they were if they are instilled by the power and she is cut off from the power is she still about I don't know if that is is true or not but I mean

[00:48:16] it's I do I'm willing to plant the seed is she is she actually still bound? That's interesting. Yeah, maybe not but it still worked to calm her down because he doesn't know. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty creepy that last shot of the daughter of the knight slash Celine

[00:48:38] blinking her eyes it was pretty cool I often have to watch on my computer and I'll have to page over the play button to see the character name and the actor name. Amazon like just will show you pretty easily and I noticed I couldn't remember if it was

[00:48:56] Celine or Serene as I was writing my final notes and I did that and notice that right during that scene as she was revealed it just changes to nothing it just has the actress's

[00:49:08] name so it doesn't change to land fear but Celine is taken away and I went back like you know two minutes to right before the reveal and it still says Celine so I thought that was

[00:49:20] just kind of kind of a cool little detail. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. Oh man yeah that was I thought it was it was really really good. So I did I mentioned that stilling but then we also

[00:49:35] aren't sure if she's stilled or shielded by a male so let's so maybe she is still bound I don't know I just don't know. Yeah that was I mean I thought it I thought it was really well done and I

[00:49:48] I'm liking I can never remember his damn name but the actor who portrays Rand I'm liking him more and more and with every episode I feel like he's kind of like showing more ability and more

[00:50:03] more range and I yeah I'm really really digging Rand but I gotta admit that Celine was is I mean she's stunning and I'm looking forward to seeing more of her

[00:50:20] not more of her but you know her in future scenes but I am curious what kind of monster she is or if she's just a dark friend that a dark friend who can channel or whatever. Well they specifically

[00:50:37] called her out as a forsaken oh so we can jump back do you want to read the prophecy that I guess Alana read out because that does they did say I don't know if she said it in the pool yeah

[00:50:55] in the beginning of the prophecy they called her the forsaken which is something I think we've also heard Ishmael refer to himself. Yep he's yeah he referred to himself as forsaken

[00:51:08] so I I guess maybe I'll just I don't know if you're supposed to know it or understand or whatever but the the dark one had a number of basically acolytes or disciples if you think of

[00:51:21] Jesus and his 12 apostles the dark one has a number of very very powerful people who could channel they were chosen by the dark one to be his lieutenants or his left tenants. I looked that up

[00:51:36] did you did you look it up too? No I didn't look it up but I definitely I went back and watched it last episode and she definitely says left tenants but then the subtitles say lieutenants

[00:51:46] so it's a British it's just how British it's like an old British pronunciation of lieutenant because the U was more of a V sound oh so yeah apparently it's it's pretty common but

[00:51:59] I didn't realize it was the same thing not in America but you know that was uh so I didn't put it word for word it was something to the effects of daughter of the night

[00:52:14] she walks again the ancient war she still fights she seeks a new lover who will serve her and die yet serve still uh the shining halls shall kneel blood follows blood blood calls blood blood is

[00:52:32] blood ever shall be something to that effect I might have missed a line in there pretty close but I thought it was it was well delivered I thought it was Ivan who who read it

[00:52:44] but I thought it was well delivered in that in that moment of reveal and then the the surprise sword for moraine was pretty good it was like but going back like back to well maybe Lanfeer

[00:53:01] couldn't sense her because she can no longer channel so again I don't know if she still don't know if she shielded but uh the fact that that she can't was actually to her advantage at

[00:53:12] this particular point interesting I hadn't thought about uh that well and you know I wasn't I guess you did reveal a little bit to us just that for sure that well no I guess we saw her doing

[00:53:26] something I guess I wasn't completely certain that what she was doing was channeling I knew there was some sort of ripple of something going on around her body but I wasn't completely sure

[00:53:39] it gave me a very species vibe yeah uh where you know she's on top of a dude and like spikes start coming out of her back and I was just like what what is happening I don't think I asked this

[00:53:51] earlier um when they you know were hiding from Lan and reading the prophecy they specifically said Lan must not know who it is about why do you think it was so important that Lan didn't know

[00:54:06] because he would I think what yeah I think what they were saying is he not we can't tell him he must not know who it's about because if he did he'd be following moraine trying to find

[00:54:21] moraine to the ends of the earth to protect her okay okay I thought they were saying like he must not know like we must not tell him although I could it could be like that too but like the way

[00:54:34] that I listening to it again I think that the delivery was a little weird because it definitely sounded like you say oh we you know we can't tell him but then I was like using the words oh he

[00:54:45] must not know so I think maybe there was a little bit of a of a glitch on on that delivery that would make more sense all right anything else I don't think so all right um then I'm gonna

[00:54:59] we're gonna stop into notes so uh I am going to just talk a little bit about um liandron and lian so lian being the keeper oh yeah but the keeper who is also the amriline when the keeper

[00:55:14] were when the amrilines away and uh I meant to mention this when when I was talking about liandron but it was just so much um so she talks about like she's basically like challenging lian

[00:55:27] like hey there's an invasion over here when was the last time you know are we even gonna send anybody uh we did send sisters um well when was the last time they reported in it's like okay

[00:55:38] leander do you know more than your than you're letting on like are you just playing the game of houses in the white tower liandron you know oh when when was the last time you spoke to the

[00:55:48] amriline so the so swan sanche is away she is not around and we don't know how long it's been so where is the amriline and so I think that's uh that's an interesting question then liandron said

[00:56:03] if she goes down you'll go with her like you can't save yourself if you are you know allying yourself with swan so I was like hmm well still kind of bitchy yeah I really love the line

[00:56:21] that lian said of um I speak with her every day because I am her when she is away right that's pretty good I am really curious to know where the amriline is and to understand if liandron's

[00:56:39] threat was directly about falling with the amriline or if it was about that they're all in league sort of with moraine I don't know liandron obviously seems to have a much more comprehensive view

[00:56:54] of a lot of things that are moving than it seems like some of the characters do and it's because she's you know basically a double agent right so what has she been fed by

[00:57:07] yeah assuming that she is a dark friend and she knew who she was working for and she was you know delivering matt to kairine um it's that's gonna take me so long to get used to

[00:57:18] saying it that way um that's uh it's definitely definitely interesting I uh one thing that I was sort of piecing together is just a theory from sort of all these story lines

[00:57:31] and this might be like too wild and I'm sure you probably can't say a lot since you might know but part of the prophecy was that she seeks a new lover and who shall serve her and die

[00:57:44] and yet serve her still and so you know I'm assuming that saline slash the daughter of the knight was seeking out rand as her new powerful lover and it seems like my theory on the whole thing

[00:58:02] with landron sort of sending matt into the hands of ishmael is that men have seen that matt is going to kill rand um and so I'm just sort of wondering maybe that storyline does play out but maybe

[00:58:17] rand dying he doesn't really die um just based on that little prophecy so I'm curious to see if that happens I don't know if it'll happen by the end of the season but I'm curious if we'll find out if

[00:58:31] that's how that's all gonna play out and this is what happens when you podcast on things you start digging digging deep and you're like what does this mean and what does that mean uh all right

[00:58:44] anything else um a really small thing but I just really loved that our reintroduction to our brief uh little view of matt um before the picture even came up on the screen you just heard the

[00:58:58] roll of dice and and you knew before you saw him that what was gonna come was going to be seen with matt because there was dice involved and I was not disappointed but I just thought that

[00:59:09] was a fun little tidbit that they sort of led with the sound first and I guess that's matt's ring tone that was my last point okay all right uh in that case we'll take a break and we'll get into some news

[00:59:25] and uh let me see I'm gonna listen to the wind and I think maybe we'll have ads for maybe a casino and then maybe some local business and then some sort of cleaning product maybe no you know what

[00:59:40] probably a podcast all right prophecy has been given ah welcome back um I uh I hope that you guys can let us know if we were right on the uh on the types of ads that you guys heard um maybe we'll uh

[00:59:56] maybe we'll be right maybe not that's that's just kind of the way that the wind wind goes sometimes uh but now uh moving on to we finally have some uh some some news about the wheel of time Veronica

[01:00:09] awesome so now that we are caught up on the episodes Greg was actually able to go do a little research and pull together some interesting tidbits so first up I have something from

[01:00:21] the wheel of time on twitter slash x um and so they say we know a lot of you were are missing the amazing opening credits from last season but part of it came down to do we

[01:00:35] want the opening credits or more show and we thought you might choose the latter and you know I agree I uh I'm not a big fan of long intros I can definitely appreciate like

[01:00:49] the artistic value of it but I have enjoyed a very quick intro this season what do you think Greg I I really dig it um I I dig the visual and uh if you can give me an extra two minutes of content

[01:01:05] I will take that over the same opening credits every every time you know Game of Thrones did a really good job of shifting it from episode to episode that probably cost a lot of money but uh I I will absolutely take take a couple extra minutes of content

[01:01:25] 100% absolutely what else uh what else do you have for us in news so there was an article on on Nerdist and actually like there there's a bunch of stuff out there and

[01:01:35] I didn't I just didn't want to like pile down a bunch of stuff but we were talking about land really but this uh from Nerdist by by Amy Ratcliffe uh talking about about land out and

[01:01:47] in his kind of like his his lightheartedness or lighter hardness um so they say uh while visiting a lot of family land seemed to relax he let his hair down though it's shorter than it was in 90

[01:01:58] years possible future and more more comfortable than looking clothing the hair at least is symbolic of land and moraine's lack of relationship the wheel of time's hair and makeup designer a divina LeMont told Nerdist it was about representing that change in his character

[01:02:13] it was about how Moiraine and land had gone to another place he said uh Moiraine was kicked out of the white tower and so we had more of a relaxed look for both of them in the first episode

[01:02:23] then they wanted to see land in even more relaxed mode as well so for that it was taking his hair down it was great to play with the length and the style for him and and what that would

[01:02:32] look like so yeah I was glad to glad he got a new hairstyle Daniel Hitting loves his long hair uh the director of this episode uh Thomas Napper told Nerdist more about Moiraine and land struggle

[01:02:45] the Parisian crisis complicated by Moiraine shutting land out he said their relationship is a strange broken place where they're almost like twins to a point it's so interesting to explore these other aspects of the characters that I felt coming to the show fresh for series two was it

[01:03:01] that was a really new aspect of the show is to see the vulnerability and to see I guess the darker sides yes absolutely I really thought that was a very good summation of how

[01:03:16] how their relationship uh almost drives both of them or their lack of relationship with how that's kind of tearing them apart yeah I mean I think you know land looks great with his hair

[01:03:28] down don't get me wrong I love it but you know when he's with Moiraine he is her warder he is always ready to sort of uh be there for her to protect her to aid her and I think the hair up sort of

[01:03:44] shows that he's ready for action and the hair down is sort of he is calmer but he's also what's his purpose right now right like what is he living for and so I'm was disappointed that he

[01:04:01] didn't want to go to the white tower and go uh be a warder for an Inave but I don't think that's the quite the time in the story for that type of happy ending so I'm okay with it but yeah

[01:04:15] um all right so uh I'm gonna implore you guys to to go ahead and send us some responses I swear I really am going to get a on Friday as soon as the episode drops I'm gonna put up a post

[01:04:32] and hopefully you guys can comment on it send us some feedback or whatever um not or whatever yes send us some feedback um but if you'd like to write in or record a message and send it in

[01:04:44] you can email it to talk at podcastive.com you can check out our facebook page at facebook.com slash podcastica and we're also on x at podcastica um so we I know that uh we just they just let

[01:05:00] the first episode of uh of daryl dixon on the the cast of us um they did it all in french completely oh man no that would be uh I I I actually haven't watched the episode yet I've just been so so

[01:05:15] slammed with a bunch of different things um but uh yeah I they got that then I think they they put you said they pushed off uh white lotus season two until next week yeah I think it'll be next week

[01:05:27] and then uh I believe there was one other one that I saw that was oh asoka is is going pretty strong and I haven't been able to watch any of that I mean watch the first episode yet I'm super

[01:05:38] disappointed in myself I know I really that's a show I'm very excited about I love uh the hosts that are covering it and I just haven't had time to dive into it yet but I I think a binge is in my

[01:05:51] very near future yeah I I think at some point I'm going to be all of you like because you say okay you know screw it I'm gonna go watch maybe maybe once the the show finishes or the series

[01:06:04] finishes I'll I'll be able to go back and watch it and then go listen to jonathan james uh cover night it's Jonathan and James right yeah and uh who else is doing it with him is it cara

[01:06:20] I don't remember anyway I don't remember there is another lady doing it with him though which I was excited to have a lady's voice on a star wars podcast because they've been pretty male dominated

[01:06:32] and I'm a big star wars fan and I know lots of other female star wars fans so it's good to I'm excited to have that in the mix nice and I do know that still slang uh is a Buffy

[01:06:44] rewatch uh I was I was not a I was never a Buffy fan um but I know that I know that a lot of people it was a seminal work in their either teens or 20s but uh Penny was super excited about about

[01:07:02] doing that awesome but next time on this podcast wheel of time season two episode five question mark we will uh we'll we'll put that out whenever uh whenever it comes out so I look forward to watching

[01:07:18] that on friday morning awesome well I think uh that's our show then all right let the dragon right again on the winds of time see ya