701: "No Way Out" (TWD S6E9 Rewatch)

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[00:01:42] With them. When it was over. When I knew... we had this place again. I had this feeling. It took me a while... to remember what it was.

[00:02:22] I wanna show you the new world. I want to make it a reality for you. Please, let me show you.

[00:03:18] Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. I'm Veronica. And this is The Walking Dead 'Cast episode 701. In this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead season six, episode nine, No Way Out. Lucy found a way out somehow. I know it's a bummer. She thought she was going to be on with us, but she forgot she had a presentation at work tomorrow. Luckily, we already had Veronica here slated to guests. So welcome back, Veronica. Glad to have you on.

[00:03:48] Hi, I'm so excited to be here on The Walking Dead cast and also to be talking about my absolute favorite episode of The Walking Dead. Well, before we get into it, it can't go without mention that you just got married recently. So congratulations on that. Thank you. I'm very, very happy and excited. Can I ask who proposed to whom? We actually didn't have a good proposal story.

[00:04:16] We just sort of decided we wanted to get married. You know, we should get married. She moved in with her son. We have her son part-time last year. Sure. And we had known our intention was to get married. I think this last fall, we got a little scared that things could change and we wouldn't be able to get married because the Supreme Court was potentially going to consider a case that would reverse the rights for everyone to be married to who they love.

[00:04:46] And so I think that just sort of made us realize at the end of the day, we were going to get married regardless whether it was the government considered it legal or not. Sure. But we wanted the opportunity to be legally married. And so I think we just decided, let's go ahead and do this. Go ahead and jump on it while you have the chance. But we left ourselves, you know, a few months to be able to plan things out how we wanted. And it was a really lovely day and we're very happy.

[00:05:13] I was shocked because I saw it on Facebook and I was like, what? Yeah. Were you just telling me that you guys were just starting to date like six months ago? But that was probably like three years ago and time just flew by. Yeah. It's been a while. It's great. Yeah. So we're very happy and excited. And she has actually been watching The Walking Dead with me for the first time the whole way through. We just finished it in February. So that was fun to get to experience.

[00:05:43] She'd seen like the first couple of seasons, but getting to experience someone going through the entire show for the first time was exciting and fun. And yeah, I mean, the fact that she sat through it means you picked a winner. That's a sign. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay. Well, all right, then let's move on to The Walking Dead. I am glad that we were able to work it out for you to guest on this one because it is your favorite, as you said.

[00:06:11] Let me read the – well, why don't you read the plot summary since you're the guest. Okay. After eliminating the Savior's patrol, Abraham, Sasha, and Daryl continue towards Alexandria. While saving Denise from walkers, the wolf is shot by Carol and then killed by walkers. Sam and Jesse are killed by walkers. Yay! While moving through the herd. In response, Ron tries to shoot Rick, but is killed by Michonne again. Yay! Carl is shot in the eye. Boo!

[00:06:39] As the handgun discharges. Rick inspires others to make a desperate stand against the herd. They're about to be overwhelmed when the walkers are diverted by burning fuel brought by Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham. It doesn't sound as freaking great as it was when you just read the play-by-play. Okay. How is it to go back and watch it again? Did it hold up as your favorite? It did.

[00:07:06] I mean, I'm a serial rewatcher of the entire show, and this one I've actually skipped and gone back to by itself a few times. I still like it.

[00:07:17] I mean, I'll fully acknowledge there's a lot of suspension of disbelief and sort of ridiculous moments, or like, I can't explain why they did it that way, but it has a lot of, like, heart and a lot of themes of The Walking Dead that still make me just sort of love it.

[00:07:37] And even though the moments I think, like, the hero moments are a little unbelievable, like, even after all these years, I still, like, will tear up at the end when they're all together fighting. Because to me, like, that's what The Walking Dead's about, right? People coming together and, like, fighting together for what they love. And so, for me, I think that's why this episode feels so special and holds up over time. No, I loved it.

[00:08:04] Yeah, I don't think about the flaws when I see this episode. I'm sure we'll find some as we go along. But, no, I just think it's exciting and it's a great climax to the whole Alexandria story so far. And it's triumphant and well-paced. And I see that it along – well, it's rated at 9.6 on IMDb, which is where listeners rate it, right?

[00:08:30] Making it the highest rated episode of the series tied with the season four finale, which is the one where Herschel died. And it's also the other one that you guessed it on. So, you're taking on good ones. Sorry, guys. I don't mean to. I'm actually relieved. I didn't know – like, I don't think I've looked into, like, the general opinion of this episode. And so, I didn't know if I was, like, loving the one that other people thought was, like, meh.

[00:08:59] Because I know right after this, it hits some low points for The Walking Dead, right? In the seasons to follow. I don't remember. I wasn't sure. Well, yeah. Seasons. Yeah. Seasons every day. Yep. No, yeah. It seems like other people share your opinion. I actually haven't – I collated all the listener feedback but didn't really read through it. So, I guess we'll see when we get to that part, too. Yeah. All right. What do we start with?

[00:09:25] I have a point that's sort of far-reaching that I just want to sort of mention all of the character development moments. I don't want to go deep into them because I think we'll touch deeper as we go through other points. But it's a little serendipitous that everyone seems to finally have this character development moment all in this, like, one, you know, evening. But it's also while everyone's under a lot of duress.

[00:09:54] And so, maybe that makes sense. Attack. Yeah. It shows you what you're made of, right? When you get a big challenge like that. Yeah. So, we see – I think the most subtle of them and that I don't know if I'd say it's like a major character leap but is at the opening where Sasha really shows her cards a bit over how concerned she is about the possibility of Abraham getting shot right there. Yeah. Which it seems like Abraham really reads into her reaction as well. Like, she likes me like that.

[00:10:24] Yeah. And I think to me, like, I don't love the Sasha-Abraham relationship and I think I agree with what you guys said a few weeks ago that, like, it's hard to, like, see the chemistry building between them. Like, they didn't really build that up for us. But I think what I do like about Sasha and Abraham is that Sasha was in such a bad place. Like, an understandably bad place. But she really didn't care about living or dying.

[00:10:54] And so, I think to me, more so than being like, ooh, she likes Abraham, it's like, ooh, she cares about people living and dying and her own self living and dying for that. And that feels, like, really positive for the Sasha we've seen, like, wandering through the woods after walkers and being careless. Just seeming so dark and, like, losing her humanity kind of feeling. Yeah. And so, I like her character a lot.

[00:11:22] And so, I liked seeing the first, like, bit of happiness for her, I think. Or the hints of it. Me too. Me too. Um, Father Gabriel, like, I want to talk more about him later, but he not only gets to do with the church, he also decides to go out and fight.

[00:11:39] And this is really the turning point, I think, for Father Gabriel's character, to him becoming someone I despise, to becoming someone I really loved and thought was a character worth spending time with on the show. Yeah. I think he psychologically turned, had a turning point a few episodes back, but this is where the proof is in the pudding. Like, he actually shows that it's real. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Um, we see Denise overcome a lot of her anxiety and actually step up kind of multiple times in this episode and take charge and use what she has to help people. Um, we see even the wolf sort of realize that he can put other people over himself somewhat.

[00:12:32] I mean, Denise sort of goes back and forth with, like, maybe you were saving me because I'm a doctor, but maybe you were saving me because you care. And so even though his life is pretty short after he makes those decisions, it is sort of someone doing that whole can you come back moment, right? Like, he was the most gone.

[00:12:53] And in that moment, if he had lived, there was hope that maybe he could come back to being a bit more of, like, a normal person living in society. I don't know if he would have, but… I don't know either. And I totally respect, uh, Morgan wanting to having this view that all life matters.

[00:13:19] And if they were in a place where they could have that and be secure, like if they had a cell, I keep saying, then I would more support. Okay, put him in a cell then, let him, uh, be punished for his behavior and then see if he, you can reform him possibly somewhere down the line. But also since they don't have that, I don't blame Carol for just being like, no, we can't have a person like this around who came in here with his friends and killed a bunch of our people.

[00:13:49] Um, so it's very complicated. I, I just sort of trying to think whether I think he actually did, um, turn around in this moment. I think there's a chance, but I think the writers were leaving it a little bit ambiguous. Like you said, you know, Denise said, maybe it's just because I'm a doctor and you need me, or maybe it's because I changed. But I tend to think he was starting to change that he, he did like her.

[00:14:18] And one little thing really tipped me that way is when, uh, Carol shot him and then the zombies were eating him alive. He screamed out, go. Yeah. So he has no, like he was trying to help her even when he knows he's a goner. So that's something, you know, I mean, still, I don't think it means, oh, he's such a great guy. You should just, you blew it. You know, he's a fucking psycho killer, but still, it's interesting to talk about. Yeah.

[00:14:45] I mean, I definitely think with the Carol and Morgan debate, like it's just, they both want it to be black and white. Like one of them once said black, you know, and it's just not, there is gray area. Yeah. We also can't reflect on it. Just like you said, like, it's not the same as someone doing these things in our current society where we have resources to hold them.

[00:15:08] Like you do have to make different decisions, but there's nuance that shouldn't just be always save or always kill. Right. And yes, I think you're so right about that. I hadn't really thought about it exactly that way before, but they're both on the extreme black and white ends of the argument. And the thing is, nuance sometimes is a luxury and they don't really have that luxury, especially in the middle of a zombie attack.

[00:15:37] So in that case, I would side more with Carol. Like we don't have the luxury right now, so you got to be brutal. But the goal is to get to a place where you can have that luxury, where you can have a justice system, where you can parse these things out, you know? Yeah. Okay. So a few more, like, of these character shift examples.

[00:15:59] We have Enid, who I think finally accepts it's okay to risk caring about people and actually, like, even though you might lose things, like, there's a way for it to live on. So she sort of turns a leaf and actually, from this point on, seems to commit to being a participant of the community. Another one of my really exciting ones up there with Father Gabriel is Eugene, who finally steps up and goes out to fight.

[00:16:31] Which, you know, he still has a long way to go, but this is really the first time we see him do something pretty significantly brave like that. I guess he saved, he helped save Tara, and that was sort of the beginning of him stepping up. But this feels like a pretty big deal for him. Oh, yeah. I mean, I didn't really focus in on him after he did that, but he was just out there fighting with everybody else this time, right? Yeah, yeah. He wasn't, like, doing some side thing that kind of helped.

[00:16:59] He was just hacking and slashing, I think. Yeah, he was. And, I mean, yeah, Rosita even tried to give him an out and be like, dude, just stay. And he was like, no, I'm going to go. And so it wasn't even someone bullying him into helping. I think that's a big deal. It would be funny if he just ran right out and got eaten right away. That would have been. I don't know. We wouldn't have thought I was funny at the time. No, probably not.

[00:17:24] I think I often boil many of the Alexandrians down into one character in my head. And so there are a few exceptions to that.

[00:17:37] But in that sort of context of thinking about Alexandrians as just one character, we really also saw them as a community come and step up and fight by the end of the episode and really not just depend on the few people to save them. Like, you saw people across the entire community coming out to help fight, which I think was inspiring. Yep.

[00:18:03] And then the last sort of growth moment we see is that by the end, Rick realizes that the Alexandrians are worth saving. They are worth being part of his people and believing in and trusting and defending. And I think that was a pretty big deal for him also. So. Mm-hmm. So. Absolutely. What about Carol? Did she have a growth moment? I don't know.

[00:18:30] I mean, I have a whole, like, section that I had dedicated a little bit more to that, Morgan and Carol. We can get into it later. But I just. But yeah. It was conspicuously absent. Yeah. I don't think she did. I don't really think so. I mean, she went out and helped, but she's always been helpful. Yeah. So that shouldn't be held against her. I mean, it's great that she helped, wanted to help. That's her whole thing is I want to protect people I love. And that's a great characteristic. She just didn't need any growth like Eugene did for that.

[00:18:59] I think she does need growth. But I think. Yeah. In some other ways. Her growth is going to be drawn out more. And she really. Yeah. Yeah. She just is at the beginning of realizing she actually can't kill all the time, even if she thinks that's what's right. Like, she can't do it. It's starting to weigh on her, I think, more heavily than she thought. And I think we see that in her expression when Morgan is talking to her at the end.

[00:19:28] But I don't think she's made any decisions on it yet. Yeah. Their story is in the middle. Yeah. It kind of made me think that it would have been good for Morgan to show up in the Daryl show. I'd forgotten that Morgan and Carol had this stuff together. Yeah. So, but I don't think that's going to happen. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Redfin.

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[00:21:06] Tomorrow morning is knocking. Probably should have made more of a point of that. But I missed the post-credit scenes. I forgot it was there. Didn't watch it. So we'll talk about it a little bit now. But what is your general take, just kind of briefly, on Negan as a character? Um, I loved him for the show. Like, I think he was fun to watch as a bad guy.

[00:21:32] I don't think they did his redemption correctly. And in my mind, he never really fully redeemed himself because he didn't take ownership of the full spectrum of atrocities he committed. Um, so for me, I don't super like where they went with his character because the lack of full attrition, I feel like. Um, but overall, like, I find him enjoyable when he's on screen.

[00:22:01] Even when I didn't forgive him, I still enjoyed that he continued on in the series. I think the next couple of seasons, they draw out his initial, like, war way, way too long. Like, on rewatching, it is too long. Even back to back to back, it just feels like it's dragging. Um, but yeah. So I guess a little bit mixed, but I'm glad he's on the show. I think it adds an interesting dynamic.

[00:22:30] And he's, I mean, Jeopardy Morgan is enjoyable in the character on screen. That's pretty much how I feel about him, too. I think, I feel like they probably should have done the whole savior war thing in one season rather than two. Yeah. Because it just felt too bleak and disheartening to see Negan have his thumb pressed down on them for so long.

[00:22:58] But, um, so that, so I guess that's the only part where I might differ a little bit. I do think he's enjoyable to watch a lot of times and a fun bad guy, but it was just getting to be too much after a while. Like, oh, this guy again. God. Yeah. But then later, I, even though I totally agree with you that they tried to make him a hero and redeem him. And I think they could have done a better job of that. Absolutely. And that's like the biggest flaw in his character for me.

[00:23:21] But if I try to just put that aside and, and enjoy his performance on screen and what's going on most of the time, it's pretty enjoyable, I think. Agree. Yeah. So, um, go ahead. I was just saying, I even, I haven't watched the second season of Dead City, but I even went into Dead City, not expecting to care at all and actually thoroughly enjoyed it. Even though I still disagree with a lot of like, like plot lines they were laying out and character development.

[00:23:50] I still, he's just an enjoyable, like performer. I don't know. Yeah. And I actually kind of like season two better. Although I think those fans thought the first one was better. Anyways, um, I, I think, uh, I wonder if, um, so, cause I, in later Negan years, I had a lot of arguments with listeners defending him. And I wonder if many of those are listening to the rewatch.

[00:24:14] So let me know if you are, but, um, some Negan fans say that if the show had been about him and we'd seen things from his point of view, we'd be just as much behind him as we were Rick. And, you know, I've been kind of hard on Rick during the rewatch and, and I do judge him for at times being reckless with the lives of people that he doesn't know or care as much about.

[00:24:37] But I think it's a whole other thing to organize a group of thugs to go around stealing from people and killing them, you know, killing one of them just to assert your dominance. That's mobster. That's mobster shit like Rick and also having this harem, like Rick wouldn't do stuff like that. And they tried to humanize Negan in the season 10 episode. Uh, here's Negan where they showed that his wife had cancer and he was getting meds for her and then she died.

[00:25:02] And, uh, uh, I think he, if I remember right, he sort of decided that the world rewards dominance. So he leading in that direction, like in his mind, dominating others and imposing order on them was how to save them. Uh, he thought killing one person in each group was how to prevent even more deaths. That's kind of what they were trying to say.

[00:25:25] But I just think like, I think about history throughout history before society was developed to the level it is now where there were just like groups of, um, people, smaller groups. And there were strong men that rose up to impose order like warlords. Negan's like a warlord or a feudal lord or something. And they, it's not fair.

[00:25:50] Like it is better, I guess, than, uh, just all out anarchy in some ways, but really they like amass wealth for themselves and they gather armies and then they just sort of terrorize everybody. Yeah. Extract, you know, and that's like not as good as the way that things progressed after that, where we have democratic societies where we can all, uh, be, things can be more fair.

[00:26:18] And we can all have more opportunity and there's not just one person that gets all the wives and everything. And, um, so I think Negan, even though he could argue, Hey, look, I'm imposing some kind of an order in this chaotic society where everybody would just be killing each other otherwise. But it still took a step backwards to where humanity went after that, at least ideally. I mean, sometimes I look around and think we're going back to that now, but, um, but you know, the idea is to try to progress, uh, forward.

[00:26:47] And I think he was a step backwards. So that's kind of where I just don't agree that if you walked, if we, the show was from his point of view, I just don't think he would be the same kind of hero that Rick is. No, I think, well, one, here's Negan. Proved to me that he was a shithead before the apocalypse happened. Yeah. He cheated on his wife that had cancer.

[00:27:11] He literally beat someone to the point they had to be hospitalized because they wouldn't stop laughing in a bar when his wife went to listen to a slow song. Like that, he is crazy. That's his redemption episode. That's his showing, humanizing him. I don't think what they showed of him at the start of the apocalypse, like those actions were all reasonable. Like he went back and like, you know, killed bad guys and saved, you know, people that were innocent.

[00:27:39] But like, no, there are some hard lines, the things you just outlined where like, if Rick did that stuff, I would not still be a fan of Rick. Like if he was trying to like impose the same sort of order that Negan was, like I wouldn't be for that. We wouldn't like him as he wouldn't be a hero anymore. And so I disagree very strongly with that idea that if we watched Negan.

[00:28:08] I guess if you try to squint and look at it from a certain point of view, you could be like, well, Rick came into Alexandria and said that he'd take over if they couldn't handle themselves. And then he killed one of them, Pete. You know, so I'm not saying like, I'm not a Rick apologist. Like I'm not saying in you just acknowledges that like he has made bad decisions. Yeah, he's not perfect. I do think there is a difference in what he was trying to do.

[00:28:35] Like whenever things did settle down at the prison, he handed over control to a council. When things do come down in Alexandria, like he did not want to be the leader. He wanted someone like Maggie to lead. Yeah, he just wants them all to be safe. That's what he wants. It's not like with Negan, you get the feeling it's about his ego sometimes and wanting that to be satisfied. And you never get that with Rick. I never feel that way with Rick.

[00:29:05] But I'm not trying to crap on Negan. I'm just trying to explain the differences because he's sort of entering into the scene here. And he's not even in this episode, but we see Saviors confronting Abraham and Sasha and Daryl and demanding all their stuff and talking like him. You know, you can tell they take after him and he's a guy saying usually we introduce ourselves by just popping one of you right off the bat. And later we see that's true.

[00:29:33] I think at Hilltop they kill a teenager. And, you know, saying like if you have to eat shit, best not to bite, nibble. Like that's very Negan-esque thing to say. And that's how it works sometimes in these like sort of cult-like organizations where they take after the leader. And, you know, bad behavior from a leader gives people who follow them that makes them feel like they have permission to be bad too. We've seen that in current day.

[00:30:01] And then that guy ends up eating a big mouthful of shit himself. And I love that Abraham said nibble on that. And I was like, good thing Daryl figured out how to use that RPG. I don't know how many RPGs he's shot off before, but maybe it's not that hard to figure out. But we just learned that the crucial things about the saviors here, they go around and find groups of people, kill one of them to make them afraid and take their stuff. And they seem loyal to one person, Negan.

[00:30:29] And to try to, I don't know, explain or try to rationalize that that's somehow good and the best way of doing things, I will never buy that. No. I think you, yeah. No. It's not worth the trade-off that they're saying.

[00:30:48] Like, I would rather die out on the road unprotected of starvation than be subjected to life under Negan, based on what I know. I would rather the freedom over that life of seeing sort of what the lowest people living under Negan experienced. Yeah.

[00:31:12] I don't, I'm pretty sure I would too, but it's hard to say for sure. I would hope that I could go find another group that did things differently. You know, that's probably what I try to do. Yeah. Yeah. So, by the way, I'm moving to France. I didn't, I forgot to tell you. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:31:34] I also think this first introduction to Negan's group gives them a little bit more insight into why they need to react the way they do once they hook up with Hilltop. And I'm still not, like, I'm not defending them going and killing everybody in their sleep at that Savior outpost. But I do think they heard firsthand exactly the MO of these people and what they were going to do if Daryl hadn't been able to flip that situation.

[00:32:04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's other people who say, hey, Rick's the one that, Rick is worse because he made a move against Negan. And that's why Negan killed Glenn and Abraham because Rick killed a bunch of his people. And, you know, they're lucky Negan didn't kill more. And, I mean, it's complicated, but it's not like Rick just decided to go kill a bunch of his people for no reason. Yeah.

[00:32:34] He knew what they were doing. They were going around terrorizing communities, killing their people and taking half their stuff until they were starving. It's like, no, he had a reason to do what he did. I don't agree with what he did either, but it's not like he didn't have a reason for it. Okay. I think next let's talk about them trying to make their way through the herd with Jesse and her family.

[00:33:00] So, last episode, we leave them and Sam is starting to freak out, right? And this episode, we open up and they've kind of calmed him down a little bit. And they've all made the decision that they're going to have to leave Alexandria and try to make it to the quarry. Is that what they said their plan was? Yeah, to get the vehicles and come back and try to draw them out. Okay. That makes sense. I missed the vehicle part.

[00:33:29] So, first off, I do love that Father Gabriel stepped up to protect Judith and take her off to the church. But I just don't buy that Rick would have let him leave with Judith. Do you? At that point? No. I know he wanted to trust him. Yeah. Well, the idea I think is because the whole thing is about Rick. Like you said, everyone stepped up to the plate this episode.

[00:33:57] But Rick has seen these Alexandrians as unworthy because they're not stepping up to the plate. And Gabriel's not an Alexandrian, but he's definitely an example of someone who didn't step up to the plate in a huge way. And so here, I think the idea is that Rick is so desperate because there's zombies all around and he wants to protect his baby that he feels like he has no choice but to trust Gabriel. And Gabriel does step up to the plate.

[00:34:23] But when you really look at it, yeah, this is – I said I wasn't looking at the flaws of this episode, but this is one that I thought, no, why don't you just take Judith with you? Like you left Sophia in a bush too. Like haven't you learned you don't leave your kids in dangerous situations? Just take them with you. I don't think he would anymore. No, I don't think so. Yeah. I mean it would have complicated everyone else's – Then Gabriel takes her to the church and then leaves. It's like weren't you supposed to be watching her? I know you want to be brave and fight, but you have a baby that you're supposed to be watching.

[00:34:54] Okay. So then – so he heads off and then – like I know Sam's story is sad. I think this kid has been traumatized to hell and like what Carol did to him was pretty awful with her threat about the monsters and we see him like rehearing that in his head this episode. Like I do want to have empathy for him, but like I can't stand him. I was so glad to see him go.

[00:35:24] Jesse has kind of annoyed the crap out of me every time I've watched. No fault of her own. I just like – I don't like the storyline. I didn't understand Rick's like perseveration on her. I felt like it was weird. I'm glad he got her out of that abusive relationship, but it didn't actually ever seem like it was legitimately to save her. It seemed more about Rick needing to like be in control of everything.

[00:35:53] And so I just have never liked the storyline and so it was obviously a very tragic way to go, but I couldn't help but being happy I think on first watch and still on rewatches to see them go. So I do think for Jesse to survive that would have been pretty terrible anyways because she was literally holding Sam's hand as he was being eaten. So possibly a mercy for her that she went out when she did.

[00:36:24] Lots of kids have been lost. Carol lost Sophia. Rick lost Carl. Oh, holding their hand while they're pulled away from you, man. I don't know. I'm trying to rationalize why I'm happy she's gone. And then like the same thing with Ron, like I think he's portrayed as such like kind of a shit. But I mean, he's also been through a lot of really terrible trauma. Like both boys have seen their mother beaten by their father for many, many years before the apocalypse.

[00:36:53] They're now stuck in an apocalypse where no one has adequately prepared them to survive. Um, they, you know, their dad was killed by this man who obviously their mother's interested in. It's been like a really terrible go at things for them. So I, I can understand why Ron hates Rick as much as he did.

[00:37:17] Like, I can't even blame him for pulling the gun out and wanting to shoot Rick in that moment where he just watched his brother get eaten. His mother is getting eaten. And Rick's literally like axing her hand off, trying to save Carl. But all he is seeing is like his family members dying in front of him. And once again, who's standing right there? Rick. Like, I can understand why he held the gun up and was going to shoot Rick. But I'm very glad he didn't.

[00:37:47] Um, and I loved sort of Michonne popping up behind him and getting in with the sword was pretty awesome. I feel like it's almost foreshadowed like a little bit, a few moments earlier in the episode because she's just looking at the zombies, but she's like weirdly creeping behind him as they're leading their way through the crowd. I'd never really noticed that they kind of framed it that way before. Um, I was trying to remember.

[00:38:15] So I have read the comics now, but I had not read the comics at that point in time. And so I really do think in the moment when Carl turned around with, you know, his eye shot out, I think I really thought Carl was dying there on first watch. And so I was shocked. I thought it was a great moment. I thought the way he, you know, turns and says, he's his dad, um, to Rick.

[00:38:44] And then the, the shot of Rick scooping him up and he's carrying and running with Carl in his arms again, just like he did back in season two onto the farm. And I thought that was a pretty cool shot and moment sitting by his bed. Like, yeah. Yeah. So I love this sequence. I think it's exciting. We get all this zombie action. They're literally surrounded by zombies, getting attacked by zombies. There's blood.

[00:39:14] There's Carl getting his eye shot out. Rick, you know, carrying him off. Michonne being like heroic behind them. Like, I just think it's a great sequence. Um, I love it. Yeah. Um, yeah, I love it too. In the way that, you know, I feel sad about tragedy on this show, but it's great drama. Not like sadistically like you.

[00:39:44] Oh, I mean, I didn't wish these deaths on them. I just didn't want to watch these characters. You did say yay at the beginning when we went through it in the summer. Fair. Um, let me go through my. It's a show, Jason. No, it's the walking dead. Uh, let me go through my whole thing about them trying to get out of Alexandria.

[00:40:10] Um, I'm sure Renee, by the way, I can almost hear her cheering as you go through celebrating the Anderson's deaths. Okay. So they're, they're all covered in guts and they're, they're quietly making their way amongst the Zeds when we first see them. And I thought it was a little bit like one of those. Misery Annie Wilkes cliffhangers. You remember that movie? Mm-hmm. Where it's like the cocky duty kid was calling for his mother because we saw last episode he was going, mom, mom. And then now they're quiet.

[00:40:38] So it made me wonder, uh, I know it's just a stupid little thing, but what, what did he want? Why was he, and how did they get him to be quiet? Maybe he should just turn around and was like, shut up, dude. In my head, they had gotten bitten right then when they were just walking down the door, but I remembered wrong. So then, um, as they're walking through, I noticed Gabriel keeps his eyes on the ground and I thought, I think I would do the same thing just to try to keep my shit together. You know, they, they should have told Sam to do that.

[00:41:08] Don't look at him. Yeah. Look at your feet, you know, and hope for the best. Look at the flowers. Yeah. Look at the grass. Um, then, uh, Gabriel says he will take Judith, which we already mentioned. And I wish, yeah, too bad Sam didn't agree to go back to the church with him. Uh, later Carl grabs Ron's hand and Ron seems to reluctantly accept.

[00:41:34] And I don't know for sure, but I suspect if they had made it through this, Ron might've turned a corner and came to be okay with Rick and Carl. Uh, but it's hard to know for sure because we didn't, I don't know if he's just sort of, cause he was about to shoot Carl last episode and then he did apologize, but, um, there's a zombie attack. So you're not sure where his head really is at. Then, um, later we see like they go to Carol and Morgan or something and come back and they're still making their way out of Alexandria.

[00:42:02] And all of a sudden it's dark where it was daytime before. I'm like, how long does it take to get out of here? Like, I know you're moving slowly cause the zombies, but like you've not even gotten from the house they were in to like the other house where the infirmary is. Yeah. It just doesn't feel like it could be that far. It looks like the camera pulls back and they're just taking one little step at a time. One, two. Like, are they letting Judith lead them? Like what's happening? I know she's gone, but.

[00:42:31] Then they start, yeah, she's crawling along. Then they start, uh, then Sam, yeah, this is where he starts thinking about Carol's threatening words and focusing on the gross monstrous face of the zombies and their growls and, um, starts crying. And I just think, uh, major Dodson did so well in this performance and, um, the Zeds pounce on him and he screams and I'm like, Oh, I wonder if that kid was traumatized. I'm sure he must've talked about it in interviews. I should've looked it up.

[00:42:59] Then Jesse starts crying and she did great to Alexander Breckenridge. And, uh, I mean, I've, I already felt a lot of sympathy for Sam first time through and was kind of shocked that people didn't like this poor little kid, but this time even more for all of them. I like, I've really focused in on Jesse in particular and, um, I think she's freaking great. Like she, I think the worst thing she did was, I already said this a few times, but let Pete

[00:43:28] stay around even though he was abusing her kids. But Carol did that too with Ed, you know, and she came back from it. So I, I, I'd be willing to forgive Jesse for that. But aside from that, she's just been welcoming and warm and even a badass, like not just the time that she stabbed the wolf with the scissors, but other times she's shot and killed zombies. She's offered help. She's just, I think she could have totally fit in with the crew of our people.

[00:43:55] Not, not a weak Alexandria, but a strong zombie fighter. And, um, so I was sad to see her go. And then, um, I thought it was interesting that Rick flashed on moments where she was like being kind and smiling at him and then she, he immediately had to chop her hand off. Yeah. That's so walking dead. Yeah. It almost felt like, like the ax, like hitting her arm was literally like shattering the memories that he was going through, which was pretty. Let me sever that connection. Yeah.

[00:44:25] Oh, wait, look, Michonne, she looks nice. Um, then, uh, yeah. Ron watching in horror and everything. We already talked all about that. He, the way I, I, I, I just, the way he looked at Rick and goes, you like, you're the reason for all this, even though it's not true. It's not true, but I can totally, like I said, like I can see how he would get there. Yeah. It's understandable. And, oh, you mentioned the comic and I, I think when Carl gets shot in the comic, it's the very last panel.

[00:44:55] And I thought he was dead in the comic until the next issue. He was alive. Yeah. Right. Cause it seems kind of crazy to get that wound. It looks like it went right into his brain, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so like, I guess there's a chance it can like ricochet off your. Off your brain. Right. Yeah. Maybe it went like. Brains are rock hard until they're not in The Walking Dead. Right.

[00:45:22] So anyway, I, uh, I want to metaphorically pour one out for the Anderson family because a lot of people found them annoying, but I thought Jesse was great and a badass. Sam was a sensitive little kid who was traumatized and whose only crime was acting like a kid. Ron had issues, but I still fell for him. And also I'm kind of fascinated to watch him since Austin Abrams is now showing up in Zach Crager movies, including Resident Evil, which he's the star of that comes out this September.

[00:45:50] So, um, anyway, that doesn't have anything to do with Ron's character, but it does make me feel a little differently about him. Anyway, I feel bad for all of them. And I, and I think they could have gone on to become beloved characters on this show, but it was a great sequence. I thought I agree with you there. It was pretty awesome and horrible to watch. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I feel like you've made me feel a little. I don't want to make you feel bad. I'm not trying to do that. I also, I don't know.

[00:46:17] Like, I think I also really never could get behind Deanna either. And again, like it's nothing against the actors or actresses. Like they're doing great with what they've been given, but something about the characters, like I just could not get into them. So losing all of them was not terrible. I bet you, I bet you if they'd stuck around, you would have just like with Gabriel. I don't know. I mean, no way.

[00:46:46] Do you think that if, I know you're kind of kidding, but like, let's say if we were in season earlier this year. No, I think you're absolutely right. And Gabriel was being such a weenie and I'm like, guess what? He's going to be one of your favorite characters by the end of this. No. No. I think you're absolutely right. Especially, I think with Jesse, for me, it's less about her and more about that. They wrote her as this like, almost like obsessive love interest for Rick.

[00:47:15] And I just hated that storyline. So her being gone. No, it's not like, but I knew Rick wasn't going to leave the show then. So the only way to get that storyline gone was for her to go out. Right. So I just think it's not, I know. I understand what you're saying. And I'm not up more than most Alexandrians. Like she was not annoying. I just hated the storyline. Sure. Involving her. And I get that. But I just want to like, I know you're not saying this, but it kind of reminds me in real

[00:47:43] life when women get blamed for things that they shouldn't be blamed for, you know? Yeah. And so on a character level, I kind of feel like that for Jesse. Like she just saw this guy come in who's saying he wants to protect everyone. And also he's hot and says he's not with anyone. And he, she's just responding to her natural interest in that on many different levels. And I don't blame her for that at all. I don't either. Like I blame Rick for being like a neurotic obsessive.

[00:48:11] Like she honestly like put up guardrails and told him to back off. Like if anything. That's right. I don't think she did any, like to be so clear, I don't think she did anything wrong or that it was wrong. If she did have interest in Rick, I just hated the storyline and was glad it was over. Yeah. Not because of her. Right. Right. Yeah. And that's totally different. For sure. Yeah.

[00:48:36] And now this really paves the way for Michonne and Rick to be together, which I am fully on board for is I know I've said that millions of times, but totally. Yeah. Same. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know, those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips. That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance with over 19,000 local agents. They help you find the coverage that fits your needs so you can spend less time worrying

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[00:49:35] Book today on the Vrbo app. If you know, you Vrbo. Terms apply. See Vrbo.com slash trust for details. Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney+. Let's go! Get ready for a new case. We're going to crack this case and prove we're the greatest partners of all time! New friends. You are... Gary the Snake. And your last name? The Snake. Dream team. And new habitats. Zootopia has a secret reptile population.

[00:50:03] You can watch the record-breaking phenomenon at home. You're clearly working at it. Zootopia 2. Now available on Disney Plus Rated PG. Okay, what's next? Anything else? That was all I had from that sequence. What about, like, Morgan and them? Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. Let's talk about that. So, miraculously, both Morgan and Carol come to within seconds of one another.

[00:50:33] Which I thought was kind of funny. It's funny because you often... I don't know, maybe this isn't true, but in TV it's so common to see people get knocked out. Yeah. And I don't know if you see them wake up that much. Maybe you do. I don't know. But so they both wake up. And you see Morgan... Because he's constantly trying to, like, be, well, if I hadn't done this, then this couldn't happen, then this couldn't happen.

[00:50:57] But that also means, then, that he, by his little logic of, like, the butterfly effect, he has to accept that he's responsible for... Is the wolf's name Owen? Yeah, I don't... I was trying to listen if they actually say that in the show, but it is listed as that in the wiki. Well, I'm just going to call him the wolf. But you could say that about Carol, too. Like, I don't think it was the right thing for Morgan to lock this guy up and not tell anyone.

[00:51:27] But I absolutely don't think it was the right thing for Carol to go in like Rambo during a zombie attack. No. Because he would still... This wolf would still be locked in the basement if she hadn't done that. Yeah. No, I think they both made mistakes as episode. And I think they're both, like, you see them... Yeah, Carol is always reckless. Yeah. Like, a lot of the time, it works out in her favor. It's good drama. And she's able to do good things. But we've also seen how it's bit her in the ass, like, time and time again.

[00:51:56] And so this is just another example of that. And I think it's like we were saying, they're both trying to look at this or black and white. Like, all life is precious or you have to kill everybody. And, like, I think she knows Morgan is wrong. That it's not... You can't save everybody. But I think, like, we're finally really seeing her own actions just are weighing so heavy on her.

[00:52:24] Like, I think she's up in that room alone, you know, looking out, trying to take whatever action she can. But I think you also see her, like, just starting to process that. And I think, like, the reason behind her, I mean, she's a mother to everyone, right? And she has this mother mentality. And she says that Morgan is selfish for saving people.

[00:52:51] And I think she believes that because with this mother mentality, she thinks she has to choose the hard thing, which is killing people. Like, she doesn't see that as the easy way out. She sees it as the hard thing. But she thinks to care about people that she has to take actions to protect them. And so she thinks...

[00:53:11] Also, with Morgan, there's, I think, some truth to that because it seemed like in Here's Not Here with the Cheesemaker that he decided to shift over. He was in this kill everything mode. And he went to the other direction. I mean, even more than Carol. Like, it was just kill anything, anyone who he sees, basically. And he shifted to, oh, I won't kill anyone. And it felt like that was more about his own sanity than anything else. So for her saying you did that for you kind of jives with that to me.

[00:53:41] No, I think she's right. But I do think she's wrong, too. Right? You know, like, I think there's just something in the middle where they need to... Like, I think it was reasonable to kill the wolves in this scenario. Like, I don't think Morgan should have tried to keep one. And he definitely, as part of a community, should not have tried to secretly keep one. Never keep a wolf as a pet. Yeah. They might bite you. You just never know.

[00:54:10] You cannot tame them. No. But I think, like... I think this is what we do start to see in the next couple episodes because... This is right before Carol leaves the community. And she leaves because she can't kill. Like, she knows she can't anymore. Oh, I have no memory of that. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So this really... Like, she's about to have a turning point. But again, like... She could... Like, it always has to be one extreme or the other.

[00:54:40] Yeah, right. There can be no middle ground. And I think for Morgan, it is just what you said. Like, we see it time and time again that Morgan's mental health is on such a edge of a knife that I think when he does try to take a more rational approach and only kill when he has to, that's still too much for his psyche to handle. And he goes into, like, what we saw in Fear the Walking Dead, which is, like, red rage mode where he kills everything, you know?

[00:55:10] Obviously, that's, like, a ridiculous... It gets to a ridiculous level. But I really think, like, Morgan just can't balance it himself. And so he... Yeah. I think you're really right. Regulate, yes, to be all one way or all the other. Which I would imagine, I have no idea, but I think I imagine it would be pretty difficult to regulate yourself in the zombie apocalypse while you're having to make choices about killing other people. Mm-hmm. Especially if you're...

[00:55:37] Well, you have a lot of trauma like he has and you're an efficient killing machine like he is. Yeah. Super easy for him to kill. He doesn't die. Yeah, right. That's right. Um, I liked in the house when, um, he said to Carol, you had a child, right? A husband. And it didn't go anywhere. And I think he was trying to connect because he had a child and he had a husband. No, he had a wife.

[00:56:07] And, um, I think that he doesn't finish the thought because he sees she's not responsive, which seems like a very human thing. You start down a road and you're like, no, that's not going anywhere. I don't know if that's actually what happened, but that's what it felt like. And it just seemed like good writing to me. That's how I read it. He's trying to connect, but it wasn't working. And I like, like, that subtlety I don't think happens in TV as often as it used to back then. But no, I read that the same way.

[00:56:34] And I actually, like, on this rewatch sort of like almost gasped when he said it because I was like, damn, like, you just have had like a pretty significant altercation with this woman. And you're going to invoke her dead family right now. And I think that's the right approach. And I know he was trying to search for that connection. But I was just like, yeah, you're saying the wrong thing to her right now, man. Like, don't bring that up. Not right now. He should be like, you like ice cream or something? I don't know.

[00:57:02] Then she said, I should have killed you. And he said, you can't. And I'm like, don't challenge her like that. That might just make it more likely. Just shut up, dude. You're not helping yourself here. Then I'll talk about the wolf and Denise a little bit, sort of counterpoint to this story. So outside, I think, yeah, he seemed to maybe be taking a liking to her. You know what?

[00:57:32] I've just realized I already said pretty much everything I had to say about this. I think the writers kind of wanted to be ambiguous whether he had changed at all. But Carol just nipped that in the bud. And I guess I don't totally blame her. I mean, she probably thought, I might be saving Denise's life here. Yeah. I mean, I think probably most of us in Carol's position would have made that decision. Yeah.

[00:57:58] Because we would have thought it gave Denise a chance who we thought was being held hostage by him. Yeah. And the more I think about it, let me not even equivocate. I don't blame her for doing that. Yeah. Because the guy had Denise hostage. So fuck him. One moment that I really love from all of this is right as Denise is able to get into the infirmary. And they see Rick approaching, carrying Carl. And they're like, was he bit?

[00:58:26] And she just has this moment where she takes this deep breath. And you see her brace herself. And she's like, nope. He was shot. And then she just starts delegating tasks to other people. And just finally being the leader that she needed to be in the infirmary. Competent and calm. Yeah. And I really, really love that moment for her. I feel like that's her sort of hero moment. And it's quiet. It's just a gasp of a deep breath.

[00:58:53] But it makes me feel really proud and excited for her. And if you have the captions on, you can see she's giving out orders about sewing up things and whatever else doctors say. So she's just on it. Well, I'll go into another point then. And it's kind of what you already said. But maybe I have a few other things to say about everyone stepping up. Yeah. Because in the church, Enid sees on the wall, faith without works is dead.

[00:59:22] James 2.26. And I think, yeah, that's a theme of this episode that God helps those who help themselves basically. In other words, do something. And that's what Rick has been trying to tell Alexandria since he got there. And in this episode, pretty much literally everyone does. And that's why it's such a great, it's one reason why it's such a great climax to the story. When even Glenn tells Enid, you stay in the church. She's like, no, no, no. I want to help.

[00:59:50] Denise taking care of Carl, like you said. Rick decides, you remember what I said about how there's too many zombies? Forget that. Let's just kill them all. And goes into this like berserker rage, which is not totally rational, but it ended up being so cool. Heath, Spencer, Aaron, and Michonne go right out to help, inspired by Rick. And the way they're hacking and slashing and pushing the zombies away. Then we see some Alexandrians watching from inside.

[01:00:16] Aaron's boyfriend, Eric, Olivia, and Bruce, who's one of the guys who was raiding the food pantry earlier, who Spencer dissed for not helping when the wolves attacked. And I'm not even sure if he came out to help. We saw Eric and Olivia come out, but I think Bruce maybe didn't. Bruce is maybe the only one who didn't step up. I'm not sure. Rick's like, knock him away, drive him down. We can beat him. We can beat him. We can do this together. And Gabriel hears that and goes, he says to the people in church, we've been praying together,

[01:00:45] praying that God will save our town. While our prayers have been answered, God will save Alexandria because God has given us the courage to save it ourselves. Hands down, my favorite character growth moment of the whole series is when he drops that line. And I feel like it's such a good line. And so many people should probably really take it to heart. Yes. Like, I love when Christians take that kind of a thing. Like, God helps those who help themselves.

[01:01:13] In particular, I know I mentioned this probably too much, but climate change. Like, I don't like when Christians think, oh, okay, God will handle this. It's fine. I mean, no, we have to take care of the planet. God will help us if we take care of the planet. Don't just leave it up to fate, you know? Yeah. So anyway, so that was inspiring to me. And then Carol, Tara Rosita Morgan, even Eugene goes out.

[01:01:39] So it's just cool to see how more and more people were like, all right, we're doing this. And then we see Glenn by the wall. And it was pretty harrowing when all the zombies start converging on him. But I cannot believe. Like, because they also have him invoke the name of dead people in the church and have this big impact on Eden. Like, y'all just had Dumpstergate faking everybody out about Glenn dying. That they had the gall to put Glenn in this position again.

[01:02:08] And I think it's like pretty crazy that they faked us out on his death. Like, obviously it wasn't prolonged this time. But I don't know. It still scares me watching it now, even though I know he's not going to die. The way Maggie screams Glenn. She's got a front row seat. And then, I mean, there were so many triumphant moments in this episode. And maybe this was the first big one.

[01:02:36] But Abraham and I guess Sasha come in with their semi-automatics. And he's got that big smile. It was just wonderful. It felt like a cartoon moment almost. But like, yes, I love it, love it, love it. And it's Abraham being Abraham. Because he always smiles when he's in the middle of the action. So it fit his character. It did, yeah. Then Daryl gets the idea to pour gas on the ground. I think from the fat frat truck fuel truck, I believe.

[01:03:04] And shoot it with the RPG, which attracts the zombies into the fire. And I really like this scene. But I can't help but think about the time me and the other walkers all shambled right by that burning barn on Herschel's farm. So it doesn't quite add up. But whatever. Yeah, yeah. We don't want to think about it too much.

[01:03:23] I think the reason that we saw Dwight and Sherry and the forest fire and the reference to how many Zeds it killed was to set up this as a reasonable way to kill Zeds. Because I think you're right. Like, if that was true and it was so effective, like, they should have had a much easier time, I think, getting out of the farm. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:51] It's a continuity error, I think. But whatever. Don't worry about it. Also, my wife, I get to say my wife now, was watching it with me and was like, why did they waste a rocket on this? Like, why did they not just throw a lighter into the pond? And I was like, because it wouldn't have been as cool. Shut up. Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly.

[01:04:13] And we wouldn't have got the really cool shot of, like, Daryl standing on top of the truck with the rocket launcher over his shoulder and doing, like, classic Daryl posturing where his other arm is, like, thrown out. Like, almost like he's like, fight me, fire. Fight me, zombie. Like, it's ridiculous and over the top. And I love it so much. It's fantastic. No, it would be a shame not to use the RPG. Right.

[01:04:38] So then, the montage of them all chopping the zombies. This is where I cry. That's one of the most badass scenes in all of The Walking Dead. Them just fiercely defending their home. So artfully shown and it just keeps speeding up. And you see all these, like, Walking Dead is so great because we realize it's actually the characters that is the strong point of this show. So to show their faces as they're fighting, it just hits so hard. Yeah, I love it. It's so great.

[01:05:07] I mean, I've probably watched it. I'm not kidding. At least it has to be 20 times. At least I've seen this episode 20 times. And I kid you not, like, on my last rewatch, I watched it again one more time today because I had time before we got on. And I had to, like, look away a little bit. I'm going to cry. Don't cry. Why are you crying? It's just a show, Veronica. Yeah, it's really cool.

[01:05:32] And it's just, it's a turning point for the Alexandrians who are now people who take action and fight for themselves. Everyone's stepped up. Also, for the people we already know, they've been driven from their homes a few times, like when the whole zombie apocalypse started, at the quarry, at the CDC, at Herschel's Farm, at the prison. And now they're just like, fuck it. We're not running anymore. This is our home. We're defending it.

[01:06:00] You know, and fighting more zombies than they've ever fought before. So it was really something. I think the zombies storming Alexandria was inevitable. I think the writers wanted us to realize that the truck was going to fall at the quarry and they were all going to come. And so Rick and crew arriving did prepare the Alexandrians for this. He warned them. They didn't get a lot of training, but they did get some.

[01:06:26] And also just Rick and his people were the first ones out there fighting, inspiring everyone else to do the same. And so he saved the day. And even though I've been hard on him, I just really want to give him that due. And I just think the only problem with them fighting back against so many zombies is after this, it's even less believable that they can't handle any situation that comes up. Right. But whatever. It was just cool.

[01:06:52] It's hard to believe anybody gets bitten after they were able to all make out of this. Yeah. Like Carl can't handle a couple of zombies in season eight. Come on. Carl wasn't there. He wasn't there. He wasn't. He was on the operating table. If maybe if he hadn't been shot. Maybe he's not such a great zombie killer. And he had his depth perception still. Oh, yeah. Truth. Anyway. Very cool. Very cool. I only had one more point. Do you have any more? Um, just sort of how beautiful the ending was.

[01:07:22] Um, I liked that it sort of, we get the final acts down by Rick and then it reopens to it being morning again. And there's like carnage of zombies all across what was once this like really peaceful neighborhood. But even though that's like a terrible visual, it still gives you relief because you're like, yeah, they did it. It's satisfying. Look what we did. Yeah.

[01:07:44] And then how the camera kind of pans over to the infirmary and kind of everybody gangs all here out on the porch sitting together sort of resting and recovering. You go in and Michonne's holding Judith. Mm-hmm. And then you go in a little bit further and you see Rick and Carl there. And like you said, it's very referential to season two of Rick sitting by Carl's bedside and sort of pouring his heart out to him.

[01:08:12] And I think there's one thing Rick has done in this episode that is very classic Rick, which is like when Carl makes it to the infirmary and Michonne is standing there helping Denise and Rick leaves to go out and fight. Like he's very much typical Rick. Like he can't sit in worry and emotions. He has to do something. Like he needs to take physical action. And so he did go do that.

[01:08:38] But it's nice then that we did get this quiet moment with him where he is reflecting on kind of his emotions about things and admitting he was wrong and that, you know, they can build a life here with the Alexandrians and people can change. Like he can come back, but these people can grow too. Right. And I think it was just a really beautiful moment. And I'm glad this was the midseason finale, right?

[01:09:08] No. I'm guessing. It was the next episode back after. Wow. They ended on a cliffhanger last season with, I mean, in episode eight with Sam going mob. Wow. That's pretty wild. I think it is really nice, though, that we didn't have to wait. Like we saw Carl grab Rick's hand. We saw that he was okay. Like I was glad that they sort of ended that on a positive note. Letting us know that, yeah, it was going to be okay.

[01:09:38] Me too. Because it was such a triumphant episode. It would have been a shame to end it on a sad note. So I think it was the right move to end it on a really hopeful, very hopeful note. Because otherwise you would have thought Carl could die. I think that's all I had. Did you have more? Yeah. Just kind of that last.

[01:09:59] I feel like that last scene and this whole episode and in a way the whole series is about keeping your humanity and holding on to what makes life worth living. Like Rick's drive for survival. Morgan's drive that life is precious. Michonne not wanting to be. She keeps saying out there for so long that they lose touch with their compassionate humanity.

[01:10:25] It's all just them trying to hold on to what makes life worth living. And I think it ties in with what Glenn said to Enid at the church, too, which I thought was great. When Enid said, when I wanted to run, you said that's how you lose people even after they're gone. What the hell does that mean? I'm glad she asked because I didn't really know what it meant either. And he says, people you love, they made you who you are. They're still part of you. If you stop being you, that last bit of them that's still inside you, who you are, it's gone.

[01:10:54] Who are those people for you? She says, my parents. He goes, then they're still here because you're still here. And I really liked that. It made me think about my own life, about my grandparents and my mom. You know, I lost my mom recently and how like, oh, what am I not doing that I want to bring back? Just because they're gone, you know, doesn't mean that we stop doing like traditions and things like that.

[01:11:22] And then it was good to hear Glenn mention Dale and Herschel and Andrea and Tyrese. And I think it's significant that all those people are compassionate people. I would absolutely include Andrea in that because she was like trying to help the people of Woodbury, even though she's annoying. But anyways, I just think that Glenn feels like if you stop being yourself and you lose connection with people you care about, dead or alive, that you lose your humanity and your compassion for others.

[01:11:48] And it ties in with this wolf saying he wasn't born this way because he's clearly lost that. He's lost his way. Uh, he's been out there too long as Michonne would say. Um, and then I think it's related to Rick remembering something he hadn't felt since he was in a coma. That's what he said. I haven't, I remembered something I haven't felt since I was in a coma.

[01:12:10] And it's just like, he's connecting with his feelings before all this shit happened. So he says, I was wrong. I thought after living behind these walls for so long that maybe they couldn't learn. But today I saw what they could do, what we could do if we work together. We'll rebuild the walls. We'll expand the walls. There will be more. So on one hand, I think it's great that he has a new respect for the Alexandrians after this.

[01:12:38] And now I think he does see them all as one group, his people that he can care about equally. I, he's talking about expanding walls. I think that is about like, I keep saying that circle of care. It's like letting more people in, you know, to his heart kind of, but it, I also, I'm like, okay, what changed your mind about this is seeing the Alexandrians fight. It's maybe a little bit messed up that maybe Rick doesn't think people are worth anything unless they know how to fight.

[01:13:06] But it's better than just writing them off as not worth caring about. Like you had been. And so then he says, everything Deanna was talking about is possible. It's all possible. I see that now when I was out there with them, when it was over, when I knew we had this place again, I had this feeling. It took me a while to remember what it was because I haven't felt it since before I woke up in that hospital bed. I want to show you the new world, Carl. I want to make it a reality for you. Please, Carl, let me show you.

[01:13:31] And I just think that's sort of related to what Glenn was saying about keeping the people with you that you've lost. It's also just not losing your humanity, not losing the fact that life isn't just about survival. It's about growth and connection and hope and love and all these corny kinds of things.

[01:13:56] And I just think Rick is feeling all of that in this moment as he's afraid for his son. And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful moment. And I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up that line from Glenn because I think it's really important. And sorry, I'm going to get emotional. I've lost a child and know the grief journey too personally, more personally than I would like to. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:24] And I think, like, I've taken what Glenn says to heart in my own life. And, like, I think it can be really easy to hide away the way Enid sort of did when you go through trauma and loss because continuing to, like, choose love and connection is a risk, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a risk of hurting so deeply the way you do when you lose someone that you love.

[01:14:52] But I've also seen how beautiful it can be to, like, choose to go on and honor the lives of the people that you've lost. So, like, my entire career is based around what I went through with my son. And I'm a scientist, but I also work for a nonprofit organization that supports families living with a rare disease called Gervais syndrome. It's not what my son had, but a lot of similarities on that path.

[01:15:19] And so, I get to honor his memory on a daily basis. And sometimes that's hard. Like, as you can probably hear him tearing up talking about it. I'm trying to cry. It's hard to sort of look in the face almost on a daily basis like that loss because so many aspects of my job remind me of my son. But it's also the most beautiful way of continuing to love him and continuing to keep him alive for me just in a different way.

[01:15:47] And so, thanks for saying that. I don't know if I could have brought the lineup on my own and been brave enough to, like, share and cry a little bit about it. But I think it's really important. And I think just another reason I love this show is just sort of even in a ridiculous zombie apocalypse setting, I think they can have a lot of themes that are deeply emotional, deeply connecting, and deeply applicable to our real life.

[01:16:14] And I think that's pretty cool in a show based on a comic book about zombies that that happens. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That's a really great example of how you've actually done this. And I'm really glad to hear that that's the route you went. Yeah. Thanks. Beautiful. Thanks. All right. Let's get into any notes or anything. Do you have any notes?

[01:16:40] I think there's, like, a couple of things that we didn't touch on that I had under notes for different areas. When did you notice that Morgan actually does end up killing the wolf who's reanimated? So, again, a little hard to believe that that particular zombie would have reached him. But I thought that was a cool moment. The other thing, like... Why? Why did you think it was cool? Just because...

[01:17:06] Just, like, made it all, like, full circle with a little bow that he then had to, like... Sorry about this. Yeah. And then one other moment... I really need to look up and see if someone's done this. And if not, I want to go through on a rewatch and just pull out all the clips of the time that Abraham, like, shouts a question at people. Because I know it happens, like, multiple times. Like, I'm pretty sure when Aaron finds them, he's like, Who's Deanna?

[01:17:35] When he's, like, saying we have to go back to Deanna. But then he, like, does the same thing in this episode where they've, like... They meet the biker crew. They've mentioned the name Negan several times at this point. Abraham still hasn't said it. And I can't... Like, I knew he said it. I was like, when does he say it? And he waits till after the guy threatens them, Don't ask any more questions or I'll kill you. And then Abraham decides to yell out, Who's Negan? Like, and it's just... I don't...

[01:18:03] I think there's got to be more than just those two examples where he just, like, sort of randomly shouts out a question. But it makes me laugh every time. So I am enjoying what are really our last kind of few episodes with getting good Abraham moments. Coming to a close. And we're about to get real mad at him. But we'll see if that hits the same this time. Yeah. Yeah. It will, I think. You've watched it several times. I haven't since back when it first aired. So, yeah.

[01:18:34] It probably will. It boggles me every time how that was handled. But okay. Anything else? I think that's all I've got. I just had one little piece of trivia, which is that in this episode, one of the Alexandrians listed as having died on the wiki. They always list every episode on the Walking Dead wiki who died. Is named Lucy. Lucy. It's Lucy's first and only appearance. The wiki says,

[01:19:00] Lucy is among the Alexandrians to take refuge in the houses when the herd invades the community. That night when Rick inspires other survivors to start fighting off walkers in the streets, Lucy is among the residents to join them. They work as a team protecting each other and fighting information. Unfortunately, sometime through the night, Lucy is somehow devoured by walkers. So, oh my God. So someone did die. Yeah. And all that. And so it's appropriate that Lucy's not with us. No, I don't know. There's no connection there. I never knew about that before.

[01:19:30] Only on the Walking Dead would the heroes kill a town full of zombies. Cause I don't think I've ever seen that in any other zombie show or movie before. No. I don't, I don't know. Only on the Walking Dead would a whole family die and several people would cheer. Would be like, yay. I did actually cheer. That's like a little. Sure. But I sighed a breath of relief. I'm ready.

[01:20:41] This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier. So you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com.

[01:21:11] Amazon presents Jeff versus taco truck salsa. Whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habanero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon.

[01:21:41] Choice Hotels gets you more of what you value. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at choicehotels.com. Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens. The people he kills get up and tip. Are they slow moving, chief? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is over.

[01:22:09] So just a couple of quick things. Recently, Melissa McBride was asked, I think by People, People Magazine or whatever, what she'll be doing now that the Daryl show's over. And she said, I'm going to be working on me a little bit. I'm going to be doing a little personal time. And then we'll just see what happens. So I thought, good for her. Let's take a little break. That's what someone who's got a secret reunion show coming up would say, right? I know, exactly. No, I don't know. Right. I wish.

[01:22:41] Then the only other item, the next season of the hit BBC reality show, The Celebrity Traders, will be filming at Ardross Castle in the Scottish Highlands this summer. I was hoping Lucy would be on to comment about this, whether she's seen it or anything. But anyway, among the contestants will be Michael Sheen, who has been in many things, but recently good omens, Richard E. Grant, another long, long time actor and Bella Ramsey, which is

[01:23:10] why I'm talking about this because she plays Ellie in The Last of Us. So that's interesting. Do you know about that show? I've never seen it, but I guess it's kind of like Among Us, there's someone that's a traitor and they have to figure it out or something. Yeah, I don't know a ton, but kind of just what you explained. Mm-hmm.

[01:23:56] follow her. And I know she won, but there was some whole big deal where people who, after they win, keep calling the network out because it takes forever for them to get their winnings. Which is interesting. I'm assuming the celebrity version doesn't have the same issue. Yeah, they probably just all get paid. I'm sure it's for charity or something. Yeah. But I think seeing Bella Ramsey was going to be on there made me interested in checking this one out finally. And I think it's a spinoff.

[01:24:25] The show's usually just the traitors and there's regular people on there. But I bet you some influencers get on that one too. But this is all celebrities. Yeah. So it should be interesting. All right. Let's move on to Lister Moans, Grounds, and Grunts. Okay. This first caller went over our three-minute call limit, but we'll let her get away with it. Her name is Lucy. Hey, Jason and Veronica. It's Lucy here. Long-time listener.

[01:24:55] Long-time caller. Long-time co-host. I'm so sorry. I can't be there tonight. Veronica, I miss you and I hope you're doing really well. Congratulations on your wedding. You might hear my cat joining in in the background. I thought you probably would miss me so much that I would send in a voice note to tell you my thoughts on the episode, the usual IMDb dive, and of course, our timeline. Jason, if you want to chop this up and play it at various points in the episode, you're more than welcome.

[01:25:24] Just treat me like Rick treats Jesse's arm, which is as disposable. Overall, loved the episode. Such an energetic one to watch. So much tension. And what always sticks out to me is that final scene. Well, not the final scene, but towards the end where we get the flashes of everyone fighting the zombies against a black screen, fully straight out of the comics, seeing the Alexandrians step up, it is phenomenal. So yeah, I hope you have a blast talking about it. Veronica, I know it's one of your favorites.

[01:25:55] IMDb dive. Norman Reedus says that season 6B is the most intense eight episodes they have ever done. I don't know if Norman Reedus knew what was to come. Seth Gilliam was happy, or yeah, Seth Gilliam was happy that Father Gabriel finally stood up and delivered a message of survival to the Alexandrians. We all were, Seth. It was the first episode to share its title with a comic volume since Too Far Gone in 2013.

[01:26:19] About Seth Gilliam, I just think, like with a lot of Walking Dead actors, it was hard for him to play that part and go to conventions and have people say, you suck, you know? So I'm sure he was glad that Gabriel finally started turning a corner. Ross McQuann says he barely slept over five intense days while filming this episode. I wonder if he was pissed off when most of his scenes got cut.

[01:26:46] 500 gallons of propane were used to create the Fiery Lake Walker Trap. The crew used propane instead of gasoline because it's easier to control and less noxious. Walking Dead cast does not advocate arson. This episode contains the most amount of walkers to appear on the set of a Walking Dead episode. I don't know if that still stands after the final seasons, but I thought it was a cool The finale had so many. In the beginning of the episode, Sasha has some of the same dialogue with the lead saviour that is calling the shots on the road that Bob had when talking to Gareth at the slaughter

[01:27:16] trough in the season five premiere. This is the first time Rick has mentioned him waking up from the hospitals in season three. As of March 2018, so a little bit out of date, season six has the highest and lowest rated episodes. This episode, No Way Out, season six, episode nine is rated 9.6, while Last Day on Earth, the one we all are feeling quite nervous about, is rated 6.3. It is the first episode of the season where Glenn, Daryl, Abraham and Sasha appear in Alexandria,

[01:27:46] not counting flashbacks in the premiere. Unless you count last week's post-credits, this is the first time that Negan is mentioned. As of November 20th, 2022, when all three of us were in San Francisco, this episode is tied as being the highest rated episode at 9.6. The other episodes with the same rating are episode 48, Too Far Gone, and episode 5.1, No Sanction. I didn't know that. This is also the third consecutive season with an episode rated at 9.6.

[01:28:15] Up until No Way Out, only six of the hundreds of walkers that have appeared on the show had been children. The girl Rick kills in season one, Carol's daughter Sophia, the governor's daughter Penny, the child with its mother that Daryl and Carol encounter at the Atlanta women's shelter, Noah's little brother and the kid Sam sees right before he gets eaten by the walkers. As important to note, Sam was not shown as a walker. This episode finishes up the No Way Out story arc.

[01:28:41] The sixth season was the second season in a row to kill off two main characters between the eighth and ninth episodes. During the fifth season, Beth died in episode eight and Tyrese died in episode nine. During the sixth season, Deanna died in episode eight and Jessie dies in episode nine. Last appearances of Alexandra Breckenridge as Jessie Anderson, Major Dodson as Sam Anderson and Austin Abrams as Ron Anderson in the series. This is the last appearance of the Wolves.

[01:29:08] Michonne kills Ron, or killed Ron, the same way she killed the governor in Too Far Gone. Andrew Lincoln said he felt sick to his stomach after reading the scripts for the second half of season six, especially this episode and the season finale. Oh, Andy Lincoln, there's so much still to come. Again, pointless IMDb trivia, Carl loses an eye after being shot by Ron. And if you missed that, then I don't know what episode you're watching. And it's the final appearance of Benedict Samuel as Owen, the leader of the Wolves. Timeline.

[01:29:36] We are on day 573 into day 574. That is March 19th, 2012 to March 20th, 2012. At the end of the episode, we are 44 days away from the lineup. And here's another depressing countdown, guys. Carl dies on June the 1st of the same year, which is 73 days away. Poor Carl. But he actually wildly looks like three years older. If you have indeed read or played this out on the pod, I look forward to being back next week to talk about next week's episode.

[01:30:06] Bless you all and I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Bye. I miss you, Lucy. I'm sorry I didn't get to see you today. We'll have to do another one sometime. That was great. Yeah. Glad she called it. Okay, let's get into the feedback. We want to go first? Sure. Sure. So Megan Dively-Layman says, Congratulations on your 700th episode. Thank you. Yes, congratulations, Jason. That's amazing. Thank you.

[01:30:35] After recent discussions on the Rewatch podcast, I now understand a little bit better why Sam couldn't control himself and led to his family's ultimate demise. When Jesse got bit, Rick's face reminded me a little bit of the crying Dawson meme. Did anyone else ever think the wolf looks like Dave Grohl? Yes. And then finally, Daryl with the rocket launcher creates one of the two coolest moments ever in the Walking Dead universe. What's the other one? I mean...

[01:31:05] Oh, yeah. It's when Glenn crawls out from under the dumpster, right? Yeah. Yeah. Matt King says, Some pivotal moments to the whole show in this episode. Sam and Jesse become zombie food after Sam couldn't shut up, leaving the way for Rishon shippers to start. The first real tussle with the saviors, and what a way to end it with Daryl whipping out his bazooka and blowing the scumbags away. And the first time that The Walking Dead really was aware

[01:31:33] of the other bad words starting with Anne Negan. I suspect I'm among a select few podcastical listeners that are looking forward to Negan's arrival at season seven. Apart from seeing that part of episode one, of course, it can't be as bad as we thought first time round, surely. Seeing JDM again will be great. He had so much charisma as Negan, and my mom absolutely loved him. She even had a cool Negan t-shirt with Lucille on it. That's pretty funny. Yeah.

[01:32:03] Am I looking forward to it? No. I can't say I am, but I'm hopeful that it'll be cool. I am. It's still good. I think the overall back and forth with Negan drags on too long, and I don't love the moment of people's deaths, but I think everything around it is just still so well done and so high stakes. And I don't know. If you can make me care that much about the characters, that it hurts, like you're doing something right.

[01:32:33] No, I'm not at all. I know, like I said this last time, but I'm not dreading the scene with Abraham and Glenn at all. It's The Walking Dead. People die horrifically all the time. I'm not one of those people who are like, I'm never going to watch this episode again. I'm like, oh, cool. Yeah, this is a good one. But just the slog of it is what I'm worried about. But we'll see how it goes. You know, season seven and eight. All right, here's a call from Carissa.

[01:33:01] Hey guys, this is Carissa from Portland. I'm calling to comment on Walking Dead season six, episode nine, I think. No way out. I was a little behind on the rewatch and I'm just getting caught back up. Just really quick points that may or may not gel together. Good riddance to Jesse and her kids. I'm sorry. I just, you know, I felt really bad for her.

[01:33:32] I've got two sons. So the empathy is there, but I'm sorry. So long. Goodbye. See you later. Goodbye. Carol definitely killed Sam. I just, you know, I wanted to see how I would feel about that on the second watch. And it's just, she felt that boys have so much bullshit. And that is sad. She's horrible for that.

[01:34:00] Morgan continuing to piss me off. Despite the wolf's slight change of heart after making a tiny connection with Denise, his worldview is still kind of batshit crazy. Sorry. I know there's potential, right? Where there's life, there is potential. That is not a lie, but you still got to make reasonable decisions. It's on a case by case basis, I guess. Right.

[01:34:29] Let's not have this philosophy that you apply to every scenario. I really love this group. I am so not looking forward to what is to come. I hate it. I hate it so much. And Rick's attitude, he's so positive. He's like this, we can make it, we can make it. And they try to make it. And then it just, you know, gets shot down, whatever. Okay. Well, still listening.

[01:34:57] I had told Jason a couple of weeks back, I was supposed to be on an episode with you guys. I can't remember which one it was, but my mom was put on hospice and she has actually since passed away. Oh, I'm sorry. There you go. Sorry. I'm dealing with that. It was very expected. Obviously very, very sad, but not a shock. She was 83. We could all, if we could all be so lucky.

[01:35:25] So anyway, I, you know, will be trying to keep up more 3Watch. It really does help me get my mind off things. And love you guys as always. Bye. Bye. Well, I'm sorry to hear that. And it was number 12, which is coming up here. So if you decide that you want to come back on that one, just let me know or, or any other one. Good to hear from you. Nice.

[01:35:54] Um, we have a write-in from Stephen Fletcher. I've always felt this episode would easily one that could go in the top 10 list. However, there's always been one thing that I don't like about it. And that's Jesse's death. I know I'm in the minority with what I'm about to say, but here goes. Yes, I know Jesse's death is in the comics, but they've deviated from the comics at times. And I felt this version of her character had more potential, especially after seeing her kill one of the wolves in episode 602.

[01:36:23] Before Roshone shippers come for me, I want to say, I'm not saying I think Jesse was better for Rick than Michonne and I prefer their relationship. I will say I did enjoy the actor's chemistry though. And maybe there could have been another version of the show where Jesse survived and we see her not only struggling to adapt the post-apocalyptic world, as well as the trauma of her losing her sons. Oh, and Porch Dick, I guess. But let's be honest, no one's missing him.

[01:36:48] I know some may not agree with that alternate version, but I just felt the character deserved better. And I always hated how the writers disposed of her in this episode, then brought Rick and Michonne together in the very next episode. I agree that felt fast. Yes, there's a two-month time jump, but it's just always rubbed me the wrong way. I apologize for how long this is, but I know Jesse isn't a popular character and there may be some people now glad to see her go. I just wanted to say I'm not one of them and I always felt she deserved better. I don't disagree.

[01:37:18] Like, I think for me, especially talking it out today, my dislike of her has less to do with her and more to do with Rick and the story. And, like, I agree she was the most adaptable Alexandrian, I think, that we saw. Like, she seemed to get pretty quickly that they'd been living a protected life and that they needed to learn some new skills. And I agree she probably could have been a badass.

[01:37:46] I wish they'd played it out differently and not had Rick, like, latch onto her the way he did. Yeah, I don't mind that either. I think he was seeing he'd been through hell and she just seemed like a spot of kindness and loveliness that was suddenly paying attention to him, you know?

[01:38:09] But it is – I do think it's a little odd because now we've seen on the rewatch it feels like he and Michonne were building up to something and that just got shunted aside. So that part is what doesn't quite sit so well for me. But no, I forgot there was a two-month time jump. So it makes it a little – make a little bit more sense that he at least took a little time before he just went straight over Michonne. But anyway, thanks for writing that in. I appreciate that. Billy Thompson says, hello, hello.

[01:38:39] Hope you guys are well. God, the opening to this gives me a real horrible feeling inside. I'm really hoping I won't find this upcoming season such a grind as I did the first time around. But just feeling Negan's boot slowly coming down on our group is horrible. I agree. At least Daryl can delay it a little bit longer with his badassery. The whole lot gone in one go makes me wonder what is everyone's kill count at this point? I don't know. Wow, I totally forgot Rick trusted Gabe with Judith.

[01:39:08] This is a huge advance in their relationship as well as becoming a dependable, trusted member of our group. I think he did this maybe to prove himself to Rick just as much as he wanted to make sure Judith was safe. Probably that and just to prove it to himself. Like he's just not wanting to be the same person anymore. Another absolutely iconic scene as we see the Jesse family die. Rick's instincts kicking in and chopping off her hand. You could see he went to that dark place again. I think it's unfortunate Jesse had to die.

[01:39:37] Not because I wanted her and Rick together, but because I think she understood the world they live in and could have eventually become a valued member of the group. That can make the tough decisions. Dare I even say potentially a badass? Or is that too far? I don't think so. She was certainly a lot further on than the rest of the Alexandrians. I mean, I would think of Heath and Aaron. Yeah. They were pretty good, but otherwise, yeah. I mean, they all stepped up this episode, but yeah.

[01:40:05] Anyway, although they do look a lot more like survivors at the end of this episode when standing outside the infirmary. Carl's eye? No, such a cool scene visually. Yeah. That was a quick shift. So many great lines this episode. Glenn talking to Enid and referencing past characters. Gabriel saying that God has given them strength. Eugene finally showing some courage. And finally, Rick talking to Carl, telling the audience that it's Carl that gave him the reason to keep going. It just makes me sad that Carl's not going to live through this whole thing. I know.

[01:40:34] It scenes like this that make it even more disappointing when he eventually dies. I keep saying this thing that he's about to say, that when he eventually dies. Anyway, another great episode. Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Thanks, guys. Bye. Well, thank you, Billy. All right. Here's a call from Becca. Hello, the cast of us. Or should I say the Walking Dead cast? Yes. I was really excited to hear you guys were thinking about changing the name back. This is Becca calling in again.

[01:41:05] I just had to call in on this episode, season six, episode nine, No Way Out. I think this might be my number one favorite episode. I don't know. There's a lot of really good episodes that I love. But this one just always really sticks out in my mind. I just love it. There's so much that happens in it from start to end. So many good moments. I know there's a few suspension of disbelief moments as well, but I just kind of move past that because I just love it so much.

[01:41:35] Like what you said. Like the beginning sequence when we kind of get introduced to Negan. We think, you know, our group's already taken care of that to begin with. And just like all the feel good moments throughout it. I know that sounds weird to say, especially considering Carl's eye gets shot out and Jesse dies and Sam dies and Ron dies. And a bunch of people die and a bunch of bad stuff happens. But for me, I always get really emotional in this episode when all the Alexandrians come out to fight.

[01:42:05] Like I pretty much like the first time I saw it, I know I was I had several tears and like even now this is I've seen it countless times, but I still I still get pretty emotional watching that scene. So I just love this episode, especially at the end. Rick's little speech to Carl that I feel like this is Rick's kind of almost his turnaround. Not really, I guess, because he still hasn't killed all the saviors. But I don't know. He seems like he might be coming out of the funk a little bit.

[01:42:35] I also love that you kind of see the family unit of Rick and Michonne and Carl and Judith kind of emerge. And I feel like we don't get very long with the four of them together on the show, like as a true, true family. But I don't know. I just feel like you're feeling all the family vibes with Michonne holding Judith outside Carl's little hospital room and then Carl and Rick in there having their little heart to heart and Carl wakes up. It's just it's just so nice.

[01:43:04] It's feel good. I don't know. I'm standing by that. And then, of course, when Glenn saves Maggie and Abraham and Sasha save Glenn and then everybody saves everybody. It's just it's just feel good. I don't know. I just love this episode. All right. Thanks for listening to my call. Bye. Bye. Bye. I get it. I mean, I think especially on a show like The Walking Dead, it's you might think it feels

[01:43:32] weird to think of an episode where people die. It's feel good. But this show is also about loss and sacrifice. And that sort of makes it even more meaningful somehow or poignant, I guess, that they made it through even and they suffered losses. So, I mean, you can't like if you have an episode like this and no one dies, then it just somehow feels lesser. Or, you know. Like there was never a risk. Yeah. Yeah. Great audio quality, by the way.

[01:44:01] Becca, are you like a podcaster or something? That was really good. That sounded good.

[01:44:30] All right. Yas. From Rachel Teal Edwards. Sorry. Jumped right in. I'm so excited about the yas. So, Rachel Teal Edwards says, Yas. Yas. Iconic is right. Is there a better action sequence in all of The Walking Dead? Truly, this is one of the best episodes of the series. I had to go look up the episode ratings to see how it compares to the first half of the season and the series in general.

[01:44:56] The ratings for this episode were a 9.6, the highest of the whole series, matched only by the fall of the prison in season four, the escape from Terminus in season five. And then you said the finale too, right? No. No, it was just a story. Okay. Yep. I agree. Terminus is the other best episode. Honestly, I'd forgotten just how good this episode was. So many unforgettable moments and so much victory. Oh man. That makes me realize this is the last time we'll feel like this for a long time.

[01:45:26] I'm going to wallow in it. In my heart, the finale is a 9.6, but I don't think it was an IMDb. Yeah, this was it. This was it. No, I'm saying the series finale is just as good to me. Oh, sorry. I thought you – because it's a 6.9 in my head. I was like, you're just pretending this is a finale. Okay.

[01:46:11] Okay. And turns out he was dead wrong. I agree that this is basically all Carol's fault, but I think uncessary. Thank you, Renee. Oh my God, uncessary. Contributed by negotiating with her 12-year-old son in the middle of the horde of zombies. No, Mom. I want to come to the quarry. That should have been a hard no from Mom without hesitation. In fact, they should have had the discussion before leaving the house.

[01:46:40] If I tell you to do something, you up and do it. But alas, she caves and it leads to the ultimate demise of her whole family. Incidentally, I do think it's pretty funny that the zombie boy we see from behind had a better haircut than Sam. I did not read the comics, so I was originally horrified when Carl was shot. Mean, but sometimes the ends justify the mean. Okay.

[01:47:08] And yes, I realize that if we're placing blame, this was indirectly Michonne's fault. It was a bold choice to stab the kid through the heart from behind. Then, of course, we have the most brilliant action sequence of the series. Absolute peak writing, acting, and directing. In a moment of insanity or sheer rage, Rick steps out to take on the horde. Everyone has the same response. It's time. It's happening. Let's fucking go.

[01:47:35] Olivia, Spencer, Eugene, Toby, freaking Gabriel, and even Alexandrians we don't really know. Every single person summons their courage in a moment, maybe except for Bruce, and follows their fearless leader into battle. Gah, it gives me chills even thinking about it. We can beat them. We can beat them. Deanna would be so proud.

[01:47:58] God, Glenn sacrificing himself to save his wife and unborn baby, all while Maggie screams and watches in horror, only to be saved at the very last second, again, by Abraham and Sasha. Such an incredible scene, followed by the final and most iconic use of the RPG, the beautiful blazing fire. Rick's don't let up! And the rapid cuts of every single person mid-slaughter. Holy shit.

[01:48:24] Cue the ecstasy of victory and the wash of relief as a viewer, knowing we fucking did it. In this moment, it does feel like we, like I as a viewer, was part of this with them. It's glorious. You know, I agree, and I don't know what about the shots make you feel that way, but I think something about it does make you feel like somehow you were out there fighting with them.

[01:48:45] And then, uh, last line is extremely honorable mention to Denise, who keeps her composure and kindness in the face of almost certain death with the wolf, and then in an instant switch gears to crush it as a doctor, saving Carl's life. I just love her. I agree. That was fantastic, Rachel. Yeah, I found myself, this is totally not at all the same thing, even close, but when you're in a situation where you're like, oh my god, I'm being called.

[01:49:14] I'm called to do something, and there's no one else, and I don't think I can do it, but what am I supposed to do? So let's go. Yeah. I felt that before. I'm not even going to say exactly what I'm thinking of, because it's not saving someone's life, but. Well, y'all want to know now. All right. It was like a couple times at Walker Stalker when like the panel moderator didn't show up, and suddenly I like to go in prepared with questions, right? And they're like, you're going to have to lead this one, and it's like five minutes to go. So I'm just like fucking writing down questions.

[01:49:44] Hey, that was your own battle, man. That was my battle. That was, and you did it. Everyone was dependent on you. You came through. Yeah. The panels were awful, but no, I'm just kidding. They're actually pretty good. It taught me I don't need to prepare, but I still kept preparing anyway. Okay. Here's a call from Carly. Hi, Jason and Lucy. Congratulations on 700 episodes. Thank you. It's so great.

[01:50:09] I second everything people said in the last episode about what a great community this is and how wonderful you all are. And just thank you, and I look forward to the next 700 episodes. So No Way Out, this episode was so good. I don't know if you can tell my voice, but I was like crying throughout the whole episode.

[01:50:32] I mean, it started out with them encountering the saviors, which just filled me with dread. I mean, I don't know if I can handle the storyline of a tyrannical dictator making life horrible for people. We'll see how we get there. And I just had this sunken feeling. Really awesome. I forgot that they got blown up with a rocket launcher.

[01:51:02] That was awesome. And then Jesse and Sam, I mean, whatever you think about them, I thought Sam was annoying. It didn't occur to me that no one had explained the zombies to him until you guys talked about it last episode. I was like, yes, of course, that makes sense. And it made me feel a lot more sympathy for this poor kid.

[01:51:21] But they just really let us sit in the horror and tragedy of Sam and then Jesse being taken down by walkers. It just was heartbreaking. For some of us.

[01:51:38] And then when they all get together, when they start going out and fighting together and just like the triumphant music and like the fighting and how people find each other and like defend each other. Like I just got so emotional. I was like, oh, man, this is why the show was so good. This is why I love the show.

[01:51:59] Like showing these characters we love in fighting these horrible, impossible odds and surviving and fighting together and fighting for each other. Like really the best of the best of The Walking Dead. So great. All right. Let's let's maybe we should end the rewatch now because that was the best. OK, bye. All right. Seven oh one final episode.

[01:52:29] Oh, no. Thanks, Carly. That was nice. She almost started crying. That was. I get it. Yeah. It's a good episode. Good one. OK. Here's Amber Lovo who says, hello, friends. I missed you all. I've been actively trying to just survive somehow. I even had that tattooed on my left arm early in April. Wow. Life has been pretty tough over here, but I think I'm finally getting out of the worst of it. I'm happy to get back to the rewatch. Well, I hope. Yeah.

[01:52:57] I hope everything's looking up for you, Amber. She says, first thing I noticed this episode was the mention of Negan, which I know what that means. Crying face. Because it's Amber's first time through. So she hasn't had experience of Negan yet. I'm not excited for this, though. I'm ready to get past the big thing, even though it's my first watch through. I know what's coming. I love the tension in the cold open. And Daryl was wily as a coyote and manages to evade certain doom and blow up the saviors with an RPG launcher.

[01:53:26] I mean, Daryl also killed that guy completely silently, apparently, which is impressive. I mean, I was, again, trying not to perseverate on that. He's a ninja. It's ridiculous to send one guy when you have 20 on bikes sitting there. Right. And then he secretly kills him while also managing to get, like, stabbed. So you know there was a struggle. Yeah. It would be funny if you kind of heard, oh, ah, oh. And then you hear him, like, messing around with the RPG or something. What's going on back there? Yeah. She said, I had to look it up because I had no idea what he was using in the RPG.

[01:53:55] I love Daryl so much. Back at Alexandria, we meet our group in skin and gut suits. Gross. I'm glad they look like bad movie props. I love when they whip baby Judith out from underneath the walker poncho and she's just chilling, cool, calm, and collected. Yeah. It's the best baby ever. She kept quiet. I'm like Sam. And Father Gabriel, is he actually going to do the right thing? I know I've heard rumors that he might not be the worst person, but I have a hard time believing he can be good. And Jesse, Sam, and Ron. Wow. What a scene.

[01:54:23] I knew Carol's threat would come back to haunt us or Sam that is. The whole scene was terrible. Flashbacks of Jesse that Rick has made me roll my eyes so hard. That whole romance thing was so unnecessary or unnecessary, like some like to put it. I love the use of the hatchet. Side note, I think that's my weapon of choice in a zombie apocalypse or a full-sized axe. Then Ron has to get his revenge and Carl gets shot again. Denise and the alpha wolf.

[01:54:53] This was one of my favorite plot lines in this episode. It's good to see her slowly getting some gumption. Oh, yeah. We didn't say that one line, but when he says, oh, you thought you guys thought that you could put up a fight and she goes, well, we did put up a fight. That's why all your people are dead or something like that was such a burn. I love that. He said, I loved and hated that they made the alpha wolf more human and almost kind here. The show is so good at taking the worst humans and giving them a small amount of good. True.

[01:55:23] Was he a terrible human being? Yes. If it wasn't for him, she wouldn't have been in that position at all. But to me, it felt as though he put himself in the line of danger for her, not once, but twice. For a second, he almost had some humanity again, which kind of gives Morgan's theory some truth. But Carol ended that path and I'm not mad about it. He was still terrible. Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel. Of course, Rick heads out to take on the horde himself, but incredibly, the Alexandrians follow him into inevitable destruction. Even Gabriel comes out to fight.

[01:55:49] The Glenn and Maggie and Enid scenes seem forced and a bit unrealistic. I'm not looking to pick it apart scene by scene, but I could probably write an essay on why it annoyed me. But when Sasha and Abraham swoop in and save Glenn, I cheered. That was epic. And next thing you know, Daryl has lit a lake on fire and we have walkers being baptized by fire. This was a wildly busy episode. The entire season has been nothing but intense. I mean, it's all just been like one long movie. No time in between. The majority of it was beautifully staged.

[01:56:19] I was on the edge of my seat for most of it and I definitely expected more losses. I know there are some heartbreaking deaths coming up. Only on The Walking Dead would a baby be totally content to be packed around under a zombie gut suit. That's true. It would stink. Anyways, I hope everyone's doing well. I've had to take a break. Most TV shows and podcasts lately while I'm going through so much chaos, but I'm finally seeing a light at the end of the tunnel and hoping I'll be able to focus and engage in some media and community again. Bye for now.

[01:56:47] I mean, yeah, last couple of weeks we've or last month we've only had two episodes. So we'll be going back weekly again, Amber, and I expect to hear from you. So. Sounded threatening. All right. Rinaldi colleagues. So there's a lot I wanted to say. Hey, Ronnie. It's always great to hear you on the podcast, especially dead cast. And I'm happy that you're happy. Thanks, Rinaldi. Jason and Lucy, by comparison. Meh. I'm just kidding.

[01:57:15] It's always good hearing and Jason. Good hearing Jason and Lucy. Anywho. So Scott Gimple messed up so badly with Morgan because in my personal opinion, he doesn't know what to do with this character. First off, the biggest weakness with the midseason finale was the Morgan and Carol storyline, which I posted in the Facebook group for Patreon survivors, subscribers of this podcast.

[01:57:41] In parentheses, he said, join the dead cast Facebook community page via Patreon. Rinaldi colleagues. It gives two thumbs up. What other reason do you need to sign up? Okay. So he's putting a little plug in. Nice. I'll second it. That makes up for him saying he doesn't care about us. So he goes on to say, Gimple had the right idea to pair up Morgan and Carol for a storyline. They lost their children to zombie bites and feel guilty that as parents, they weren't strong enough to protect Sophia or Duane.

[01:58:09] Carol finds strength through violence and deception, but it's eating away at her mentally based on Melissa McBride's amazing performance and facial expressions in JSS. And Morgan finds his strength through pacifism and deception. Both Morgan and Carol are played by actors who are giving Emmy award caliber performances. So I think it's just a case of poor execution of an interesting idea. No way out makes this storyline even worse than the midseason finale.

[01:58:39] Each rewatch I do of this episode convinces me Gimple wanted to give Morgan a fighting chance in this debate over violence versus pacifism because Owen the wolf saves Denise life. And that allowed Carl to get life-saving medical treatment for his missing eye. But Morgan's actions prevented Denise from being in the infirmary in the first place. I feel so sorry for Lenny James. He needs to be in a successful movie project like Coleman Domingo who has gotten praise for his performance in the new Michael Jackson biopic as Michael's father.

[01:59:09] Lenny James needs to be in a biopic for a famous music artist to make up for writers hurting his character in Walking Dead. What do you guys think about him being a character in a prince biopic? Jason, you can't just feel sorry for Coleman Domingo. Feel sorry for Lenny James as well. That's hilarious. You're totally right. Yeah. He should be in a big movie. He's amazing. He was in that series. I always forget the name.

[01:59:39] Mr. Something. A BBC series that he got a lot of plaudits for but it was just a small thing. I don't. Yeah. I wish he would have as much success as Coleman Domingo because he's a great actor. He really is good. And I've only heard really positive things about him as a person too. Yeah. I met him a few times. He was sort of – he kind of kept to himself. He had a – I'm making a motion with my hands of drawing inward.

[02:00:08] He seemed very inwardly drawn person. Did you insult him in the opening of a panel though or something? Not really. I'm just kidding. He said something about the character and the audience. I said Morgan has a bright dark cloud around him and the audience booed and he seemed to take offense to that for a second. But I quickly said don't say that. He's a great actor. No. I mean he – you know some of the actors were more like chill and you know just like outgoing.

[02:00:37] He wasn't an outgoing person but he wasn't rude like some of them were. He was a good guy. All right. So Rinaldi continues on. Anyway, the rest of No Way Out is fantastic. Rick trusting Father Gabriel with Judith after destroying Gabriel's prayer circle flyers in Alexandria was fantastic. I forgot. He just destroyed the flyers. Maggie and Sasha seem to find inner peace.

[02:01:04] Sasha has had no psychotic episodes this season as opposed to season five. From Father Gabriel's prayer circle in the season five finale. So it seemed logical to me that Gabriel would extend an invitation to his prayer circle with other characters as a result. The iconic Carl getting shot in the eye scene from the comics was filmed so well. Great job by Greg Nicotero.

[02:01:28] Kudos to Gimble for setting up Sam's slow descent into mental trauma due to Carol's violence and deception that began back in season five. Okay, he goes on. I was getting ready to say hold on. There was more than just Carol impacting this kid, but he goes on to say Sam had an abusive dad, a terrified mom, fear of zombies, and struggled playing with other kids because he was always in his room. He unfortunately didn't have a chance to survive walking through the herd.

[02:01:54] I think Sam was always going to have a meltdown, and if he went with Gabriel, that would have led both himself, Gabriel, and Judith dying. That's an interesting point. Ironically, in my opinion, Sam refusing to go with Gabriel saved Judith's life. Ooh, if that's true, yeah, I want to know what Rachel thinks about that because she was pretty down on Sam not going to the church. Lucy, I think— Rachel, why do you want Judith to die? No, I'm just kidding.

[02:02:20] Lucy, I know you think I'm crazy, but seriously, I think Sam survived Judith's life by not going with Gabriel. Saved Judith's life, sorry. Okay. Okay. The battle ending with Alexandria fighting the herd together and Daryl using fire from an RPG rocket to weaken the herd was chef's kiss excellent. And Ronnie, I know you're dreading the Negan age, a long age in Walking Dead history, very long-winded based age, emphasis on the long-winded.

[02:02:46] Like when I write into the Walking Dead cast, I was literally going to call you out if you didn't call it yourself. But that opening scene with Daryl using the RPG on the saviors was epic. Come on, you know it was epic. I do. Nibble on that, Abraham says to the saviors' corpses is the reason Sasha decided to consider dating Abraham. I'm convinced of that. This is the most unhinged feedback. I love this. It's so funny. Even though I still think pairing those two characters in a romance is weird.

[02:03:14] Anyway, No Way Out deserves praise, and it's exactly why it's the number 18 episode out of 177 on My Walking Dead. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this is a top 20 episode in Walking Dead history, according to Rinaldi. That was very, very fun to read. You should come on and read all his letters. I feel like you're a good combo. All right, we have one more message, and that is from Robin. Hey, y'all. Good morning.

[02:03:44] It's me, Robin. Do you remember me? There's so much that goes on in this episode, but I just wanted to pick a few things. The first one is, of course, right at the beginning, the group that Daryl and Sasha and Abraham encounter. And the guy is like, yeah, well, give us all your stuff. And Daryl's like, well, there isn't any more. And he says, there's always more. And I just love that so much because it's like, dude, you have no idea how much more there really is.

[02:04:13] And Daryl steps out from behind the truck and just obliterates them. It's really kind of amazing. Have this. The actress who plays Denise, love her so much. I love Denise so much. Merit Weaver. She's so good. She was on Law and Order several times many years ago when she was a lot younger. She played two or three different characters in episodes. And then a few years ago, she was in a Netflix limited series called Godless. And she played – it's kind of a neo-Western thing.

[02:04:43] And she played a character that's the exact opposite of Denise. And it was so interesting to watch her because this actress, she just has so much range. She's got a lot going on. She's really good. I hope she continues to be really successful and doesn't necessarily have to become a star, but just keeps working steadily. She's really, really good.

[02:05:08] I said this last time, but Karen and I are covering Severance over on Wax Episodic. And she's about to come into that as Zach Cherry plays this character, Dylan, and she's his wife. And she's really good in that too.

[02:05:24] I feel like Gabriel's – I don't know if it's his arc – got kind of pushed aside a little bit in this episode when he bravely says that he'll take Judith to the church.

[02:05:40] He'll take her to his church, which the people that he locked out of the church before he came with our group is just such a huge, huge thing. And it's such a change for him to have been able to really grow and convince Rick that he can do it. And then when he gets to the church, there are people in there that he has allowed to be in his church.

[02:06:10] And I just love that. That – I don't know. I guess it's an arc for him. It's really the beginning of the new Gabriel, and I really appreciate that a lot. And then – It shows growth that he didn't tell them all to go outside and then lock the door. We'll go fight them and then all lock the door behind us. Yeah, yeah. Let's go! And then they all go, and then he shuts the door and locks it. That would have been great. That would have been amazing.

[02:06:36] There's so much that happens, and of course, you know – oh, the other thing about Denise, I love it when she's so afraid and she gets to the infirmary. And Michonne is like, I got to go, I got to go, I got to go. And she just looks at her and says, and this is his son. You have to give me a minute. And Michonne says, okay. And, you know, she finishes fixing Carl up and Michonne runs off. But I loved that moment for her.

[02:07:04] The last thing, too, is Rick, you know, at Carl's bedside again as Carl is getting ready to be, you know, hopefully saved and not die. And the hope that he feels is so overwhelming. And then we really don't know, the first time we saw it, that that hope is so misplaced, that everything is just going to go totally wrong for such a long time with Negan.

[02:07:34] And it's just – it's really – it's beautiful to see, but also now that we know what's going to happen, really kind of sad, too. But thankfully, Carl's okay. I love him. I wish we weren't going to lose him later, but okay, that's all right. Anyway, it's good to talk. We'll talk again soon. Bye, y'all. Bye. Bye. That actually is, I think, what the writers were going for with Gabriel to show a situation that's the opposite of his origin. Yeah.

[02:08:04] Where there's a church with people in it, and instead of kicking them all out, he goes out to fight, you know? Yep. I started laughing in the middle of that, though, because she said Father Gabriel, and for some reason it just dawned on me that when I was reading Rachel's comment, she had abbreviated it as F.R. Gabriel, and I think I read it as friggin' Gabriel. Freakin' Gabriel. I was going to correct you, but I thought. Because my brain first went, like, is she calling him Friar Gabriel?

[02:08:30] And so I just went with the next thing that popped in my head and just realized what I did. Sorry. It worked that way, too. But yeah. All right. That is our show, Episode 701. Thank you for listening, everybody. Thanks for coming on, Veronica. That was fun. Thanks for having me. It was really fun. Next up will be The Walking Dead Season 6, Episode 10, The Next World.

[02:09:00] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And yet people will still ask me how they can write in, even though we say that every time. They just don't listen. But if you do listen and you decide to go there, please check out our other podcast, one of which is called Dragon Cast, which will be back very soon because they've announced House of the Dragons coming out when? June 22nd, I think. That's month. Season 3.

[02:09:30] Are you ready? I can't freaking wait. I mean, I'm not ready because it's going to be awful, but it's also going to be glorious. So I'm ready to be hurt again. They sort of were building up to this big battle that didn't happen, right? So hopefully we're going to see that. It's going to happen and it's going to be bad, but it's going to be excellent. And I cannot wait for my Targaryens to be on screen again. Yeah.

[02:09:55] So anyone who's a fan of that show and hasn't clued in on Dragon Cast, you should definitely check it out. It's Veronica Wendy and Archmaester Rennie doing a fantastic job covering that show. Yeah. I mean, Rennie is just a fountain of knowledge about the Game of Thrones universe. And it's just amazing to get to be on there and learn from Rennie week over week. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening.

[02:10:25] Don't get bit, Becca Duckworth. Like Sam. Then we'll laugh. Some of us. We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026. Enter How To, the longstanding advice show and Ambie Award nominated Best Personal Growth podcast that's back with new episodes and a new host. Who? Me, Mike Peska. Each week I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond.

[02:10:53] With help from a world-class expert. You know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences.

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