708: "Last Day on Earth" (TWD S6E16 Rewatch)

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[00:01:00] Hmm. Anybody moves, anybody says anything, cut the boy's other eye out and feed it to his father. And then we'll start. You can breathe. You can blink. You can cry. Hell, you're all gonna be doing that.

[00:02:21] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Alex. And this is The Walking Dead 'Cast episode 708. And this week we're covering The Walking Dead season six, episode 16, last day on earth. Welcome to the podcast, Alex. I'm so happy to have you here to cover this momentous episode. Thank you. As one of my, honest to goodness, one of my favorite characters in the series debuts this episode. So very, very happy to come on and talk about it a bit.

[00:02:51] Yeah. And I mean, if you guys have been listening to this podcast and you watched the dead city and listen, then you've heard Alex before. If you don't know what I'm talking about, Alex and Ben co-hosted coverage of dead city season. What was the most recent one? Three, two, two, three is coming up in July. And, uh, so I thought who better to have come on and talk about this episode than a true Negan fan.

[00:03:18] Yes. Yes, I am. And so it's always funny because I, I always have to kind of defend that a lot about being a Negan fan. Um, and I have no problem with it, but I think a lot of that shadow with how I came into The Walking Dead and what I already knew coming into it. So I, I think I have a skewed perception of the man named Negan.

[00:03:40] I mean, so I just want to put it out. So I have, you know, I, you've probably heard me talk about how I appreciate shows on two different levels. One is narratively. And then one is like, if I was actually in it, uh, having to deal with these people. Well, there's some similar dynamic with, with Negan. Like I, I feel bad because I think the way you just put that, I don't know if that's true. I think there's so many Negan fans out there.

[00:04:07] You know, when I, I, I did Q and a with Walker, at Walker Stalker for years and Jeffrey Dean Morgan had some of the biggest lines, him and Norman Reedus, people just lined up for literal hours just to be able to talk to him just for a few minutes because they love the character so much. But I get the feeling probably that people listening who are podcasting of fans might have a bit of a skewed picture of that just because they hear me bitching about him all the time.

[00:04:37] And I'm going to continue to do that. So that's the thing. Like I, that's what I want to say is I, I always tell, like I tell hosts, I don't remember if I have told you this, but I'm consider this me telling you right now. Um, feel free to disagree. You know, I, I, that's makes for a better podcast. I don't ever want anyone to pretend to agree with me. That said, I get really like, you know, energetic about making my points. So those are like the two levels of reality. Like I, I, and I, and I would hate.

[00:05:06] For listeners to feel like they, you guys can't disagree or that you have to think about it the same way I do. I mean, I have really strong feelings about Negan, but also it's okay for us all to disagree. And you know what? I'm even a little bit concerned, like going into the Negan years now that people who've been following along in the rewatch might get turned off with how I talk about Negan. So I have, I have some thinking to do about that. I can't just be bitching about Negan every single episode, but this is his first appearance. So get ready for a little bit of it.

[00:05:35] I mean, all right, don't get me wrong. The first several appearances of Negan really do set up. He's a great villain. He is a phenomenal villain. He is a smart villain. Unlike the Gareth and whatnot, he isn't necessarily cracked. He's a bit warped, but he still has his faculties and the way he is able, I mean, it's the difference between being a savior and being a leader, right?

[00:05:58] A leader takes care of not only their people, but their people as it, as it stands within the ecosystem around them. Whereas a savior saves, no matter the cost. I don't care what it takes. I'm taking care of my people, screw everything and anything else that comes in the way. So I, it's that dichotomy of Negan. And I mean, I'm sure we're going to get into it as the episode goes, but when I came into the walking dead, it was, it was during the pandemic.

[00:06:24] So you got to think the entire savior war had already happened and we were getting towards alpha and the whisperers. So Negan had already become a broken man. And like, I knew that he had already had a heel turn and was a good guy. I also knew about who, whose demise happens in the next episode. Where are we at with spoilers, by the way? Total full spoilers.

[00:06:46] Coolio. So I knew from, I knew from jump that Glenn was a goner and it was going to be at Negan's hands and it maxed the comic book. Exactly. So I never got as attached to Glenn as other people did because while you guys knew that sometimes they changed the story as the story went, I knew even what the TV show ending of that story was. So again, I was able to go into it. That's your perspective.

[00:07:07] Absolutely. With a completely different perspective. And what I saw was evidence that anyone that can still be broken can still be redeemed. But we get to that in three seasons. But anyone that has the ability to still be broken, that has enough of their faculty so that they can be broken and rebuilt can be redeemed.

[00:07:29] I believe that Negan has earned redemption. I have no problem saying that. And I would love to go 10 rounds at a later point or tonight if you'd like. But I believe that with his actions as time has gone, he's earned redemption. But damned if it isn't a slippery slope every time he gets the little bit of the right kind of power. He is a very conflicted individual. And I love that. Just like Gus Fring.

[00:07:54] I think we could go a few rounds about whether he's fully redeemed or not. Let's save that. Okay. But I like everything you just said. And before we get into the episode, just a couple quick things. First, I want to say congratulations to you publicly because you just got married, what, two days ago? Two days ago. Yes. Saturday. Congratulations.

[00:08:23] June 20th. Thank you, man. It was an awesome day. Couldn't be happier. And my wife, I love saying that, is the one that got me into The Walking Dead way back when. So I have her to thank for everything I'm doing right now. Excellent. That's really nice. You picked the right one. Darn tootin' I did. Darn tootin'. Right on. And then second, I just wanted to ask you really quickly, do you mind me mentioning your last name is Kruger? You don't care about that, right? By all means, yeah. Your last name's Kruger. Did you ever get associated with Freddy Kruger as a kid?

[00:08:54] Every single Halloween back when phone books were still a thing, people would call us and ask if Freddy was home. I had several teachers that only knew me as Freddy growing up. It's one of those, you either lean into it or you get really angry about it. So I just leaned into it. Like, oh, is Freddy home? No, it's my uncle. He's in jail. Whatever. When I worked at a movie theater, I changed my name tag whenever we got a Friday the 13th movie in. Nice. Nice. I ran away from it. You know what? That makes a lot of sense. I would have brought a hockey mask.

[00:09:23] We are covering Crystal Lake on Wax Episodic later this year. I can't wait. Oh, nice. That's going to be cool. That's awesome. Also, great coverage of Severance right now, by the way. Oh, yeah. It's so much fun. Severance has been phenomenal. Yes. Yeah. We got one more episode of that we're doing in a couple days. Yeah. Then we have to wait. All right. Let's get into it. Walking Dead Season 6, Episode 16, Last Day on Earth. Would you like to read the plot summary? I would love to.

[00:09:50] So, Savior Roman finds Carol and shoots her twice, but is killed by Morgan before he can finish her off. Two strangers find Carol and Morgan and offer to take them to their community for refuge. Rick's group try to get Maggie to Hilltop for medical attention, but find all of the routes blocked by the Saviors. Eugene volunteers to distract the Saviors while the rest of the group gets Maggie to Hilltop on foot. But everyone is captured and forced to kneel before Negan, the charismatic and terrifying leader of the Saviors.

[00:10:16] Negan introduces himself and, after choosing one of the group as punishment, begins beating the unseen victim with his barbed wire bat, Lucille, as the episode cuts to black. So, how was it to re-watch it? How many times have you seen this episode, would you say? Any idea? I typically re-watch the series once every 18 months. So, and I don't really watch them on there. When I do a re-watch, I just do the whole way through.

[00:10:42] So, I've probably seen this episode four times before I started re-watching it for this. So, I'm up to six now. Man, it is tough to get through at points. Well, without getting too into it, be tough. Why? Because it's brutal? Man, you really feel... Yeah. Well, I don't know. I've become so desensitized over time to brutality thanks to Game of Thrones and all that stuff. So, it's kind of hard to feel like anything's too brutal these days. But, to me, it's the psychological torture. It's the psychological warfare that they're put through.

[00:11:12] It really is that feeling of no way out. And, you know, one of the points I'm going to get to with, like, the confidence meter and how it shifts throughout the entire episode. And, like, you just keep feeling more and more boxed in. And then, on top of that, you have the Carol and Morgan kind of end of their story arc for this season, which at times can feel a bit belabored. But I think it's a really, really fascinating conversation by two great characters to have this conversation.

[00:11:40] So, what was the original question? Just how was it to watch it again? It was great. At this point. I don't mind... There aren't many episodes or things that, like, are difficult for me to watch. I think... You know, I know a lot of fandom, when Glenn gets got, they're kind of done with the show. For me, with The Wire, I don't know if you've ever seen The Wire, but... Spoiler alert to anyone that hasn't seen a show from 2002. But when *** dies in season four, I don't finish season five. I'm like, I'm done.

[00:12:09] I'm like, I can't see my *** go back down his dark path in season five. Like, I can't do it. So, to those that peace out after the next episode, I absolutely do get that. So, anything I say, please understand. I understand loving a character or... Yeah. ...a narrative decision pissing you off so much. You're done. You're out. Yeah, it's tricky to talk about this show sometimes because... First off, on podcasts, I just want to have fun, so I joke around. Yes.

[00:12:36] And then I realize, oh man, some people really take this to heart, including me sometimes. And here I am just making stupid wisecracks about it. So... But I'll say I love this episode. And especially around this episode and even more the next one. Like, I've heard a lot of people say, yeah, I watched those once, but I won't ever watch them again. And I, you know, the next one hit me hard, no pun intended.

[00:13:03] But I still, I'm looking forward to it. Just like, and this episode, I loved it. And I loved it the first time too. I mean, I was looking back at my notes and I thought it was a little tedious getting to the last bit. But I didn't feel that as much this time just because, you know, they just keep hitting different roadblocks.

[00:13:28] But I feel like it's about giving Rick and us this sort of progressively stronger sense of dread. Like, oh shit, we're fucked. Absolutely. And I thought that was a nice feeling to explore. These saviors are totally in control here. Shit. And then I loved Negan's intro. I was a fan of Negan in the comics, so I wanted to see how they were going to do in the show. I remember seeing Jeffrey Dean Morgan at just a video of him at a convention going, yeah, I'm going to be fucking Negan. Like, he was so excited about it, right?

[00:13:57] And he killed it, man. He was great. He was so good. So I think it's a great episode. Yeah. It is. I mean, some problems, I'll get into it later. Some problems for me crept in later. But if this was as far as I'd seen of Negan, I'd just be like, man, what a great character. And I still do think he's a great character, but there's huge problems. There are huge red flags with him, sure. Again, I really like a compelling character. I also like, God help me, man.

[00:14:25] I've seen, I like me some Spike, you know? I like me some Sandor Clegane. I like a bad boy mixed in. Give me some Benjamin Linus. Are you kidding me? Hell yes. Hell yes. So that's a little bit of where it comes from as well. I do like a conflicted bad boy. I did grow up in the 90s. I mean, it's interesting how characters who start off with, I don't think any intention of making them a hero, but the audience takes to them.

[00:14:54] And so then the writers keep writing scenes with them and it sort of becomes natural to, well, if we're going to keep having stories with them, we're going to have to make them more heroic. Because we can't just, you know, I don't know if they don't want to have them keep doing bad things because then they're afraid the audience might not keep liking them. Or they just, I don't know, it's just a push to make them an anti-hero. I think about Venom in the comics, Spider-Man villain.

[00:15:20] But also one of my favorite early characters, you probably don't know this because you're too young, but maybe you've heard of Luke and Laura in General Hospital. You heard of them? I have heard of them, yes. Soap opera super couple. I mean, they were so huge in the culture that even years later, if you've never known anything else, you've at least heard that name. But Luke was this great sort of bad boy character on General Hospital back in the 80s. And I found out later on that one of their first scenes together, he raped her.

[00:15:50] And then as he became more and more popular, they sort of retconned it to, oh, he seduced her, you know? And it's that kind of a thing with Negan, in my opinion. I mean, look what he did in this episode, right? The harem is the one that he's never apologized for, that they have written under the rug, I will say. But that's not what I mean necessarily. I just mean he just fucking hit Abraham over the head ten times with his bat while smiling about it.

[00:16:18] And now we're like, he's our hero, you know? It is, you know what, it is a tough look. But as I said at the top, anyone that can be broken can be redeemed. And that's why the jail cell existed, I suppose. Yeah, that's true. And I would say if they had redeemed him, then I would agree with you. He did save Judas' life. Judas ain't the only one he has saved at this point.

[00:16:44] He has saved many lives because he has the most important thing in the Walking Dead universe, Jason. He has plot armor. I mean, if he just had, they should give him a new tagline for every time he saves someone, he should turn around and be like, do you love me now? Am I good? Am I good enough, Daddy? Yeah, you could see him dropping a line like that. Something messed up. You actually could say that, yeah. Good. All right. So what do we want to talk about first? All right.

[00:17:11] So I want to maybe hit on the slow descent of Rick Grimes' swagger throughout this entire episode. Yeah. And it really all formulates around the five blockades that the Savior set up to box them in in this time. So you get to the first blockade with Simon, and Rick is just 110% confident. There is no doubt in his mind as he sees these eight Saviors in front of him like, no, no. We got this. We're good. He's like, I was going to take all your stuff. Absolutely. That standard Rick swagger.

[00:17:41] And I got to say, man, Stephen Og plays sociopath so well. Yeah. So well. Simon is a delightful bad guy. First Simon. Yeah. In this episode. Was this Simon's first appearance? Yeah. Holy crap. It's a great appearance. Yes. All right. So then they get to the second blockade. There's 16 guys at this point. They're like 70% confident, 30% apprehensive. But then the, and it's like a win probability meter in baseball. So you hop on ESPN and you're like, all right.

[00:18:11] So the Rick and the, and the, the, the team, they're at about 70% win probability. You get to the third and it's eight Zeds with markers of the members on their team that the Sabres have already captured. Okay. We're at like 50% confidence, 30% apprehensive, 20% scared at this point. Then you get to the fourth blockade. You got the 42 guys, the entire crew. And like at this point, Rick shook. He knows that something is up and he doesn't know how they're going to get out of it.

[00:18:38] And it's the final blockade where there's just one guy who becomes one Zed and Simon unleashes the logs. And you realize to put it bluntly, you're pegged and there is no way out. And even with Eugene's huge heroic idea and sacrifice, like you almost know again, every single way is blocked and it's an amazing funneling system.

[00:19:03] But yeah, I thought the way to show Rick's confidence dying this way is because our confidence was dying too. They just took out the savior outpost. This is exactly why I thought I didn't think it was tedious this time because this is what it's all about. They had to show you. Nope. You have no idea how big it is. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and in the RV too, he's like with Maggie, Hey, we can do anything once we stick together.

[00:19:32] And then a little bit later, he's like, we're going to get through this and you don't believe him anymore. He's like super worried. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it was just, it was exactly what the story needed is finally, because up until this point, the saviors have done nothing but take losses. I mean, Daryl blew them up with a rocket launcher. Good point. Yeah. They got, they got Daryl's bike for, you know, Dwight did it, et cetera. But they also lost the outpost fight.

[00:19:59] Harold incinerated, I don't know, nine of them, 30 of them. There's no way of knowing. Like the saviors have done nothing but lose at this point. And the intel that they got from the hilltop was like, yeah, like they're bad guys. Like there's not that many of them. So they were also working off a bad information. And this, this finally let us know what we were up against. That's a good point. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. That's the thing with like comic book villains. You know, they, they try to make them seem formidable, but they just fucking lose every single time.

[00:20:29] Right. Right. So this is the opposite of that. It is because they didn't unleash the major boss until they had to. And when they did, they did it right. They sure did. It was a whole production. Completely. Um, yeah, I think, uh, yeah, they're just playing with them like toys here and they're in control in a way that seems almost superhuman.

[00:20:55] In fact, you really have to suspend your disbelief that they could do what they did in my opinion, because a, uh, why even set up roadblocks? Right. How many different roads out are they? Like, they don't know Rick and all his people are trying to get a hilltop. They don't know Maggie's hurt. Right. So true. A little bit of a plot hole there. They don't, I don't know if they know that Rick is aware of hilltop. Right. I don't know.

[00:21:23] I don't know. I don't know.

[00:21:53] I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That'd be cool. Which, which kind of, it does bring me to one of my next points. And I'm just so curious. What do you think the planning meeting was like for the saviors when, when Negan was sitting around the table and someone's like, dude, what if we just do the whistle to drive him nuts?

[00:22:22] He's like, God damn it. I love that. And, and I mean, you know, we met the, the whispers later on, but we met the whistlers first. Really? We sure did. And like, are there certain guys that are certain love? Like, Hey man, you're a really good whistler. So you're going to be like first chair. Yeah. Like was Morales a second chair whistler? I wonder. Yeah. There's guys that are their saviors. They're not even that tough, but they're just great whistlers. So they just hang out on the periphery. You know? A hundred percent. Yes. Yeah.

[00:22:50] It's like you don't let anyone see you, but just. Just whistle your heart out. But I mean, what I love about this is the whole season. Season six is Rick judging the Alexandrians for not being ready. You guys don't know what's out there. You're, you're naive. You're too optimistic. You're not ready. You're not good enough. And then he did the same thing. He thought he knew everything and could handle anything. And he was wrong. He didn't know as much as he thought.

[00:23:19] He wasn't as prepared as he thought. Like Negan says, it sucks. Don't the moment you realize you don't know shit. And there's, that's what this episode is. Is it showing him? You got cocky, man. You thought you knew, but look, you didn't know. You weren't prepared. And I, I don't know why that makes me so happy. It's just because it's bothered me that he's been so arrogant lately. I don't think anyone deserves what Rick got, but he needed some kind of a lesson at this point.

[00:23:47] He needed well brought down a peg, but that was such a great point. If I were listening in the car, do you make it? I'd be like, oh my God, that's dynamite. Because you're right. Season six starts with a botched plan of Rick's. So the, the Zeds of the quarry season six ends with a botched plan of, of Rick's take out the savior. So man, you're right. He really did. Oh wow. That's such a great call. He needed to be brought down a peg and, and this did it. Yeah.

[00:24:14] I mean, this just shows that you, you, you, he, he was operating from what he did know. And he's like, I know I've been through this stuff and you Alexandrians are pretending that that doesn't exist. And so you're idiots and I, you know, you need protecting. You're not even worth my time barely, but he didn't come to think, what if I'm like them? What if I don't know everything? What if there's things out there that I don't know about?

[00:24:42] And, and there were, you know, and that's. There were. Cause you think about it. Essentially Negan is an upgrade of the governor. You know, he's not necessarily Gareth in that he's not cattle shooting you in and trying to eat you, but he's more of a governor of, I have these people that count on me and it's my job to take you down and provide for them. Yeah. Negan's a little bit more calculated, a little bit psychotic, less psychotic, but. And more fun too. So much more fun than the governor, man.

[00:25:09] But it is, it is fascinating that Rick kind of forgot that he could get got to, that he wasn't as perfect as he was asking the Alexandrians to be. That's such a great point. I love that. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online. Makes sense.

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[00:26:37] Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last. Ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. So let me take my turn. I'll go over to Carol and Morgan just to kind of get that part taken care of. I mean, I enjoyed it. I especially loved Carol's performance in this. We'll get to it. So Morgan sees a sign that says, you are alive. What is that? That's a Gimple thing.

[00:27:07] Obviously. And then that's exactly what he says to the horse when he runs up to Luca. Yeah. That's so Gimple. I mean, we love him. We hate him. It's who he is. I mean, I have no idea what that is. I think it sort of relates to like the theme of the episode or one of the themes where Simon is telling them, hey, this could be your last day. Be kind to the people. It's like this theme of you're alive is like when you're alive, make the most of it or something. Don't lose your humanity. I don't know. Anyway, then he finds this horse. Yeah.

[00:27:36] That the kingdom guy, Daniel was looking for and riding around on the horse the rest of the time, which made me think of Rick in the first episode, kind of. Yep. Then he finds Carol on the doorstep, badly wounded, and they hole up in the library where we find out that the saviors have killed a whole group. And that was a weird coincidence, wasn't it? That they just happened to be in the same library that these people were at. You know what, Jason? I think it's quite a leap of faith for you to just assume it was the same library. Maybe there's more than one library in the South.

[00:28:06] Well, here's one reason why I think it's the same. And because that guy that Simon was ticking around and beating said, or Simon said to him that, oh, we had to string up your guy that shot at us. And then you still fought back. So we killed the rest of you. And then they see a guy strung up. So it could be another library with another strung up guy. You're right. No, you're absolutely right. They dropped the breadcrumbs. I just didn't follow them. Yep. You're right. A hundred percent. So, I mean, I never noticed any of this, by the way, the first time I watched this,

[00:28:35] I was just picking it up right now. So, um, anyway, Carol needs, uh, uh, he's telling her you need stitches. You need antibiotics. Come back with me. She's like, no. And then, um, he starts or she starts explaining to Morgan why she left. If you care about people, there are people protect. There are people that you kill for. If you don't want to kill or you can't, then you have to get away from them. You don't get to do both. And I just love that, you know, since Morgan's been back in the series, it's been all about all life is precious.

[00:29:05] I refuse to kill. And he and Carol have been at odds about that this whole season. But then she ends up being the one that he breaks the rule for. It's just kind of satisfying in some way, for some reason. I don't know. I couldn't agree more. And I really do love Carol's point. And like between the two of them, I'm probably more on Carol's line of thinking, which is I have too much blood on my hands. I just, I cannot kill anymore. But to survive in today's world, in a society, you have to be willing to kill.

[00:29:35] If I'm not willing to kill, I can't be a member of society. And I've made peace with that. Whatever may come from there. So be it. But so I really do appreciate because, again, how many times did Morgan let someone live that he really shouldn't have? Now, again, domino, butterfly effect. If he didn't kill the wolf, then the wolf wouldn't have been there to save Denise. And Denise couldn't have saved Carl, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But Denise wouldn't have been out there if it wasn't for the wolf anyway. She wouldn't have been in there. Amen.

[00:30:05] Thank God you said that. Because when I saw that on Tropes, I was like, hang on now. So it is, as much as I have really appreciated the way this season has dissected and challenged the ideas of pacifism in this new world, I think a part of this episode was to also show you, much like Shane did for Rick and Negan's going to for us, but you have to be willing to kill in this world. Because there are bad men equals dead men. If you want to survive.

[00:30:34] Yes. And you want your friends to survive. And I think it's an interesting conversation because you do, no matter what, you have to find that line. It's not like Rick was at a point where you look at me funny, I'll shoot at you basically. If I don't know you, I'll try to kill you. That's where he was. That's way too. I'm going to plot so that we kill 20 of you while you're sleeping by slicing you with necks in the back of your head. Or there's a guy over there I don't know. He's running away from me.

[00:31:03] I'm going to try to shoot him in the back because maybe he's a bad guy. That's too far over on one side of the line for me. But Morgan was too far over on the other side where letting these wolves live who have just shown that they will try to kill him and all his friends and told them straight up, I'm going to kill you if you let me live. You know? Multiple times. That's, yeah. That's too far on the other side. But Morgan did have a line and that was if someone's about to kill my friend and I can't

[00:31:33] talk him out of it, then I'm going to kill him. And so I respect that he had a line at least somewhere and that he saved her, you know? Because if you don't cross that line, then you have no line. Like you'll just let your friends be murdered. When do you think Morgan accepted that that's where his line was? Do you think like walking up into that situation, he thought to himself, if I can't, I'm going to have to, or was it truly in that millisecond? It's like, no, I'm making my choice. I have to protect my loved ones.

[00:32:02] And this is the only way to do it. I wonder. We'll never know that, but I'm curious. I don't know either. I suspect that he did know that that was his line only because the way Lady James played it, it didn't seem to faze him. It was sort of like. And when he kills, he goes all the hell in. Yeah. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. He killed him eight times before he hit the ground. You didn't even have to shoot him that many times, Morgan. No. He's crazy. At some point it became excessive. Yes.

[00:32:28] But, um, cause the way he played it, it wasn't like, oh my God, I just broke my rule. It was like, hey, you crossed my line. I had to do it. That's a great call. Yeah. That's what it seemed like. I don't know. If there is one way to describe Morgan right now, it is at peace. Yeah. That will change. But right now. That's right. He is at peace. He becomes the flip flopper later on. Um, but before he killed the guy, Roman, the savior, he comes upon Carol, gets the drop on her.

[00:32:55] She's already wounded and dying and he shoots her in the arm or something. Yeah. Yeah. He says he wants to watch her die slowly cause he's dying too. Like what a dark place to be like, oh, I'm about to die, but I just got to make sure I get to watch this woman die slowly first. Um, and then, but then I love where she starts smiling and he goes, what do you got to smile about? Bitch, what the hell's wrong with you? And then she starts laughing and there's nothing wrong with me. I'm going to die.

[00:33:22] So there's nothing wrong with me anymore, which is so complicated, but it seems like she's just so she's had to wrestle with all these things and she's afraid that she's broken and maybe she's relieved that she won't have to struggle with that anymore or something. And then he shoots her again and she screams and he goes, you think you've suffered enough now? And she goes, no, probably not. And then he, he gets this look on his face. Like, what is with this woman? What is your deal? Yeah. I'm just going to leave.

[00:33:51] For me, honestly, like my first, so when I first watched the series was not a big fan of Carol was not a fan at all. Then came the terminus explosion and I adored Carol. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was the same for a lot of people. Cause we had look at the flowers where she got to admit to Tyrese everything that she had done. And then we got to, uh, the, the say the saving of the team.

[00:34:19] And that's when I was like, okay, I messed with you, Carol. I honestly think this episode was when I started to pay attention to Melissa McBride and thought to myself, you're one of the best actresses, actors on this show. You have an unbridled talent to the point that the, the quote that you said of the, you know, how do you think you've suffered enough? The way she delivers probably not.

[00:34:43] No, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it because it's so powerful and it tells you everything that this person has been through because she was married to Ed at one point and she still doesn't think she's suffered enough. My God, what a, what a person that has gone through it and just, I don't know who could do that though. It's same way Melissa McBride can. It's dynamite. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[00:35:09] Oh, and then, I mean, we'll just finish off by saying the kingdom guys show up and that's going to lead to one of the most fun episodes of the walking dead ever. So I'm excited for that one. Such a great arc. And just the guy like Jerry Ezekiel, folks, if you're a first timer, we're spoiling some stuff, but trust me, you're in for such a treat, man. You are, it is, you're going to get frustrated by the saviors, but you're going to be delighted by the kingdom. I promise. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. Okay. What, what next? All right.

[00:35:37] So, um, before we get to the big part, I got a couple of other pieces. I just kind of wanted to touch on one of which, all right, Cutlets, let's have the conversation because I really love Michael Cutlets in so many things and I really like Abraham, but I have always felt a disconnect from the character and I couldn't quite figure it out until this episode when I haven't been watching up to it. So it was just this specific episode and it's, I believe him as a leader.

[00:36:06] I believe him as a bad-ass. I believe him as a funny man. I don't believe him as a romantic interest. I just, I just, I can't have him telling Sasha how much he finally has a reason worth living for and immediately followed up with bitch nuts. Yeah. I love the bitch nuts. And like, but it's just, and like, again, Cutlets is a great actor. I've seen him be someone that I'm rooting for romantically in situations, but this is not one of them. And even with Rosita, it never felt like, I don't know. I just.

[00:36:36] It was better for me with Rosita than it is with Sasha. It was absolutely better with Rosita than it was with Sasha. But like, I think you didn't even need to give him a romantic story arc. You could have just let him be who he was. It's so weird while they ended his story. Like why? I really, like, yeah, man. It's just, it. Misfire. And again, I just think picking up this episode here, it really kind of shone a light on like what my issue was, which is again, I love Abraham when he's leading folks or when he's

[00:37:03] taking charge and cracking wise, but romantic leads and then going into his we're up shit creek with our mouth open. Like, no, I don't want it to be both ways. I just don't. It's all the scenes with him and Sasha. You just feel like, what is this? No, it's not working. Why are you shoehorning this story yet? And then. By strong contrast, when he Eugene's like, what? Why didn't you ever let me drive the truck? Because I didn't think you could. But I was wrong. You, you're a survivor. I love that. And you always were.

[00:37:33] It's, there's so much more chemistry between them two. Even, even Abraham and Rick when they're talking, like that is who he needs to be. He needs to be that strong best friend to Eugene. Not any of this nonsense with Sasha. So, um, yeah, that one, that one really stuck out like a sore thumb for me.

[00:37:51] Yeah, especially because he broke up with Rosita in such a shitty way that I also don't understand for this other story with Sasha that doesn't play well on screen. It's like, well, then he gets killed. It's just like, ah, what are you doing? Why? I don't, I don't quite remember. But when he leaves Rosita for the woman from Alexandria in the comics, was it as heartless? I can't remember. It's been so long since the last time I read it. I have no idea. Okay.

[00:38:21] I think it kind of was actually now that you mention it, but I don't remember for sure. I don't know. That's fair. That's fair. But still, it's just, it just didn't work for me. Yeah. But that's my point on Abraham slash Cutlets. Okay. Let me talk a little bit about this library guy. Okay. Yeah. So they're chasing this poor bloody guy through the forest and, uh, kind of remind me of Yellow Jackets. You ever watch that show? It's a great show. I need to, but I haven't yet. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:48] These, cause it opens with this woman running through the forest girl and you hear like animalistic sounds, but they're human produced and she's like flipping out. It's sort of like that a little bit, but this time it's whistles. Anyways, then, um, they catch him and Simon says, I mean, I think that the point of this guy is to, as Simon says, to make an example out of him for Rick and everybody. But for us, it's to give us an idea of what happens if you fight back.

[00:39:18] Cause he says, you know, you broke the rules. So folks had to die. The one who fired the first shot, we strung them up to make an example of him. It could have stopped there, but you guys still didn't listen. You wanted to fight us. So this is how it had to be. And then later the guy says, you know, that all, all the, all his people are dead.

[00:39:37] So it just shows that if you cross Negan and you fight back, then all your people could die, which is a strong thing to put out there right before Rick and crew encounter him just to have in the back of our minds. Right now, after the whole storyline plays out and you find out that Simon's the one who like ordered all the people, all the men at Oceanside to be massacred and Negan didn't like that. Then you wonder if he did the same thing with these library people, maybe. Right. I think so.

[00:40:07] And man, Simon is a compelling secondary boss. I will say, um, he is, oh God, so compelling. He really is. He really is. I wouldn't want to meet him in real life. No, but I enjoy watching his exploits. Absolutely. No. So I, I love what you're saying. I, interestingly enough, while you were talking, kind of formulated a side view of that, which is in a lot of ways, that first scene is setting up the entire rest of their interaction with the saviors.

[00:40:36] You're getting just enough information to know that something bad is going on. You're not a hundred percent sure what until much later in the program, but like you are being introduced to folks and a backstory that in a lot of worlds you should already know, but you don't. So you have just enough to get an understanding of what's going on, but not enough of the meaty details to know the through and throughs, which is exactly an analogy for their understanding of the saviors. You know enough, but you don't know everything. Yeah.

[00:41:05] And we're, we're like Rick in that way. Like we're just learning. Unless you read the comic, then you know more. But if you didn't, you didn't. Well, that's true. Yeah. So, but I just also want to take a chance to talk about Steven Ogg a little bit, who played Simon. He was known, do you know what he was known for before that? Grand Theft Auto? Yes. He played this psycho Trevor. He played Simon. Yes. It's the same character. He's a raging psychopath. Yeah.

[00:41:34] And fun as hell to watch and to play in that game. Oh my God. I mean, he's a standout character and it had been, I think it came out in 2013 and this is around 2016, I think when these episodes aired. So it was like three years later and now, you know, 12 years later, Grand Theft Auto 6 is still not out, but it's supposed to come out in November. I think it actually is going to come out in November. Steven Ogg has been resurrected in the Walking Dead universe for a quick drop in in Dead City

[00:42:03] before Grand Theft Auto 6. That's amazing. Yeah. But I'll say for him, he was really great at conventions. He had a little bit of that crazy vibe to him of Trevor and Simon, a little unpredictable, a little wily. That's awesome. He had this chaotic energy just under the surface, but he also had like a vulnerability sometimes to him and like a world wiseness and a kindness too, but you didn't know what

[00:42:33] you were going to get with him, which was kind of half the fun of it. But he, under it all, he was a nice guy. He would throw things at me sometimes that were challenging, but I felt like it was a fun thing, not like a adversarial thing. I can dig it. Really cool. So a little less scary than Meryl. Yeah. Less scary than Rooker. Yeah. Thank you, Rooker. Rooker, I felt like was not always on my side, but it was always on the audience's side. They had fun. So I guess that was all that mattered.

[00:43:03] That's awesome. I also really like Steven Ogg in Breaking Bad. He's in like two scenes, but he absolutely steals both of them. I forgot about that. Or not Breaking Bad. I'm sorry. Better Call Saul. Better Call Saul. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have one more point before we get to the lineup as well. You go then. So I have to take a quick moment in time since last time I didn't get the opportunity to,

[00:43:32] and I am got to give my flowers to Mr. Seth Gilliam, our resident priest Gabriel. Again, I'm a big fan of The Wire. I've been into The Wire forever. I'm one of those hipster douches that's always like, yeah, man, you got to see The Wire. It's one of the best shows ever. Okay. I acknowledge that about myself. But he plays the character Sergeant Carver in that show, and that's where I first knew him as. So when I saw him on The Walking Dead, it was like, holy crap.

[00:44:01] And then he's Gabriel, and I'm like, all right, I really don't like him so much. But this is where you start to see that Sergeant Carver version of Gabriel come out. When he is giving Rick an absolutely militaristic breakdown of everything that there is, every plan in place, and what his prime directive is, it gave me chills. I saw Sergeant Carver on screen again, and it was so nice. So I just, I love Seth Gilliam from what I understand. He's a great person. And I just, I want to just vocally say anything that guy is in, I'll watch, man. I love him to death.

[00:44:31] Right on. Yeah. See, I never saw The Wire, so I didn't have that background. And I think at this point, I'm still, when he says to Rick, do you have faith that I can, you know, in me being the one to defend Alexandria? And Rick says, yeah, to me, it looks like Rick's thinking, I don't have any choice, man. You know? But so at this point, I hadn't come to be a stand for Gabriel, but I did ultimately get there with the character for sure.

[00:44:59] Because he just consistently stays. Absolutely. Capable and, you know, effective. I mean, he almost reforms Jadis, for God's sake. Right. We can do that. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, kudos to Seth Gilliam for taking this character that just made, he, like, the difference

[00:45:22] between a character like Negan and Gabriel, they're both start off bad, you know, Gabriel leaving his flock out to die and Negan just being a sociopath. And selling Rick's group out to Deanna. But Negan always owns, well, he doesn't always own it. That's a problem later. But in the beginning, he owns his actions. He's just like, I'm fucking doing this and I'm confident in who I am.

[00:45:50] Where guys like Gabriel and Nicholas, they're just weaselly weaklings. That's why Negan has such hardcore fans. Because even though he does bad things, he just relishes in it and he's fully committed and confident, you know? You know what else Negan doesn't do, Jason? I'm pretty sure Negan doesn't lie. I don't think Negan lies. He tells you exactly what he's going to do and then he does exactly what he said he was going to do.

[00:46:19] He doesn't bullshit. He doesn't have a filter. No. He tells you exactly the way it is. You're right. He has no filter. So that gets him in plenty of trouble. But he doesn't lie. I'll give him that. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So did you have anything else to say about Gabriel? That's it. I just, God love him. That's it. Well that, so let's see. I wanted to just go over a little bit of how we get to the lineup.

[00:46:42] So everybody piles into the RV and this is one of those, they're trying to get Maggie to Hilltop because she's having what we learn later is placental abruption and she needs a doctor's help. And this is one of those butterfly effect. Well, she, she got that because she had to fight those savior women in that episode where they went to kill everyone in the outpost. Right.

[00:47:08] And this is one of those butterfly effect things that I don't think you can really blame someone for, but if Rick hadn't killed Dr. Porch Dick, then they wouldn't have had to go to Hilltop and maybe Glenn and Abraham would still be alive. I mean, you can't really blame him for that, but also if Rick hadn't sent them out to kill everybody in the outpost, then she wouldn't have got hurt there either. True. So, and that one's, I feel like he's a little bit more culpable for because it was a dangerous

[00:47:36] mission and you took a pregnant woman with you. Yeah. But you can't say no to Maggie. No, you really can't. I mean, she's going to do what Maggie's going to do. God love her. That's right. So fair enough. So anyway, then let's see, they, they all pretty much all decide to go. So I, the, the people who I saw that were left were Gabriel, Spencer, Francine and Scott and Enid in the closet. But I'm sure there's a lot of Alexanders.

[00:48:05] We don't know who have been trained up and everything. Then let's see when they meet Simon the first time and face off and Rick's like, we can make a deal right here, right now. And Simon's like, yeah, we can give us all your stuff. Yep. And that's like Negan's deal making with Simon as his mouthpiece is like, we're stronger than you. So you have no negotiating power and you just have to do what we say or we'll destroy you.

[00:48:33] And I just think that we see some of that deal making going on in the world today. And the problem with that kind of deal making is you get a lot of people resenting you and who will at first opportunity band together and try to overpower you. You know, you don't build any bonds that way. It's just all fear based, all stick and no carrot. Right. You're just a great joy in a world of Thrones. Like, yeah, all you do, you do not.

[00:49:01] So you just, you take a pillage and no one wants anything to do with you at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Assimilation is not a great way to get people to buy into you. Yeah. It's not just humiliation and domination. No, I can't stand that kind of thing. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. So then I'll just go through this sort of quickly, but you get to the, all the different roadblocks and I liked how they were different. And I liked that the third one had a lot more people with some standing on the guard.

[00:49:31] That one was particularly striking. Like you thought we were using all our people and we were just using a few here and there, but look how many we have. Here's 45 more on top of the 32 we've already pulled out. Exactly. Yes. So then, uh, so then Eugene comes up with this plan to care for all of them to carry Maggie through the woods and then he'll drive around as a decoy. And, um, I was like, so did the saviors anticipate that they were going to do that?

[00:50:01] Or maybe they captured Eugene and they were like, tell us your plan or will. And then he just told him immediately. So, all right. So that happened right after the log fire is when Eugene's like, all right, I'll take the rust bucket. Y'all go. So you have to wonder, okay, so Eugene probably hit another blockade at some point very soon or they, who knows? Um, I don't know if they would have told Eugene or if they would have been like, oh, that's the last time any of us saw all of them together.

[00:50:28] Let's start tracing our groups again, the logistics of how they were spread out in these woods, as well as Alexandra versus Hilltop. Like, did they just sign on for a 45 mile hike? A four mile hike? We don't quite know. And how did Simon end up at like two or three of the different roadblocks? How did he anticipate? Like they drive off and he's like, I think they're probably going to go over here. So I'm going to race over to this one and meet them there. It appears that Simon was only at the first one and then the logs, which the logs very

[00:50:56] well may have been the first one after they had moved the trees there. I don't know. Oh, maybe so. Yeah. That makes sense. Because that is where the guy was hung from. Yeah. So I don't know. I think it's a fool's error to try to make too much sense out of all that. You know what I mean? That's so true. You were shot with a magic shotgun, Jason. Anything could happen in this world. This summer, Prime Video takes you back before Legally Blonde, before law school and into the world of Elle Woods in high school.

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[00:52:21] Download the State Farm app or go online at statefarm.com. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. Well, that said, shall we move into the... Let's get to it, man. Talk the lineup? Yeah, go for it. Let's do it. All right. So at this point, the Saviors have our group tried, tested, and completely pegged. So they get the folks from the RV, which again is... What's that? Sasha, Aaron, Rick, Carl, and Abraham.

[00:52:51] And then you find out, oh, all those cut scenes to people seeing through eye holes. That was Michonne, Glenn, Daryl, the rest of our merry band of folks. Why do you think they were showing that, little pieces of that throughout, just for some intrigue? I think they were just trying to intrigue us or irritate us, which they get real good at irritating us in a couple of episodes anyway. So yeah, I think that was just them doing their artistic thing. I got it, but it was kind of... It's cool. I've had better.

[00:53:19] I thought when Rick is captured by Jadis and they do that, that one's better. But anyways, so they bring everybody out and it's time to meet the maker and meet Negan. And you get probably, arguably, maybe one of the greatest villain introductions of the 21st century in television.

[00:53:37] I would love to know some other villain introductions that A, introduce themselves so charmingly, and B, so thoroughly terrifyingly as this one does. Right. It's so iconic. It's that line up, too, of all of them on their knees and with Negan there with his red scarf and his black leather jacket and his barbed wire bat leaning back with his smirk on his face.

[00:54:06] Like, yeah, it's really interesting that such a hit show, and we're not even halfway in yet, by the way. We're pretty close. But this far in, this is one of the most iconic scenes in this show. Maybe, yeah, I don't know if it's the most, but it's up there. Top five, for sure, I would say. And yeah, you're right. One of the best villain introductions in the 21st century. As far as I've seen, I wouldn't argue with that. It might be the most lasting moment from the show.

[00:54:34] Of all the millions of moments from, you know, dead open, not inside, or what have you, to this. Yeah. The lineup might be because it was that tipping point. It was that axis for so many viewers. And it was also an exit. That's what's interesting about it. It's like so iconic, and he became one of the favorite characters of the show, and it was also a stepping off point for a lot of people.

[00:55:05] Absolutely, yes. There was a... At least next episode. I don't know about this episode, but next. Correct. But it's set up. Honestly, essentially, these are two episodes to combine for me. To me, next episode has one of the greatest scenes of all time, which is Rick and the hatchet. Oh, yeah. Get my hatchet. Oh, it's so hard. That's hard to watch for me more than any of this stuff. That one is very hard, but it's so cinematically awesome. I can't wait to hear Ben talk about it.

[00:55:32] But no, it's the lasting thing, more so than any other moment in The Walking Dead. I think the lineup is what most people envision when they think about the show. I'd have to imagine, just because of how controversial it is and how lasting everything from it is. Yeah. Yeah. And the only other thing that comes to mind that's close is Sophia coming out of the barn. Oh, okay.

[00:56:01] That is a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the two big ones. That's another bellwether moment. The line, but I don't know if this counts as a scene, but look at the flowers. Those are like... Oh. Or he doesn't know who he messed with. But yes. Yeah, they don't know who they're screwing with. That's right. Screwing with. But no, I think... And I think it's iconic for a reason. Again, the acting is absolutely dynamite.

[00:56:27] Andrew Lincoln's terrified and beaten energy and acting is absolutely top-notch. And he goes in this episode from being Mighty Joe Cool to being a sniveling, literally sniveling guy in the dirt. You just can't believe it. The transformation. Glenn is heartbreaking. He's not sniveling yet, I would say, in this episode. That's true. I mean, next episode is legitimately sniveling. Yeah, it's not everywhere. That's fair.

[00:56:53] But my take on him this time is he's just like gobsmacked. Like, fuck. Yes. I mean, Daryl's broken. He's looking at a Daryl that is completely broken. Yeah, and he gets... Like when Simon goes, all right, you're going to need to all get down on your knees now. And then he doesn't. And I think most of them don't. But then he goes, get on your knees. And Rick's still standing and all his people are looking at him like, is he going to do it? What are we doing, boss?

[00:57:21] And he just sort of like almost in a daze gets down on his knees. That was quite a moment seeing Rick Grimes get down on his knees for someone. Like there's a part of me, as much as I've been critical of Rick being like, oh man, I don't like to see that. I could not agree more. It is to see our guy that's never been defeated this way. No one has ever gotten this level of upper hand on Rick Grimes. Hell, the closest was Shane.

[00:57:48] And I don't think anyone ever had this much power over Rick Grimes. Yeah. And it's alarming to see. I guess it sort of reminds me of Gareth on the roof ordering them around to go into the train car, you know? Touche. Touche. But it's still not quite like... That was a very good immediate power. Right. This is, I'm not going to kill you. You're my slaves now. Yeah. I own you.

[00:58:13] It is a different kind of subjugation than anything else. And it is fascinating because this is also where you see Negan sowing the seeds of people are a resource. He understands, hey, this is a formidable group. They can do a lot of stuff. I'm going to have to kill one of them. But the rest of them, they are going to be very, very beneficial to my endeavors. Bad mistake, Negan. Amen to that. Amen to that. Can we talk about eeny, meeny, miny, moe, Jason?

[00:58:44] I think that was bullshit. So, okay. For one thing, he didn't go in order. First off, it's by syllable. He jumped around. He jumped around and he didn't go by syllable like catch a tiger is one person? No. Yeah. That's crap. Now, I will say... He does whatever he wants. And in years since, either they or he has described that. He picked Abraham right away. You always take out the biggest threat. And Abraham was more than willing to prove himself to be the biggest threat. He's just playing with them.

[00:59:12] But it's all just part of the toying around and knocking them off. So, while I hate his execution, I guess at the end of the day, it was never eeny, meeny, miny, moe to begin with. It was just mind games. Yeah. No. And it didn't bother me that he wasn't doing it in order because it just was like, this guy's just fucking around with everybody. This guy's such an ass. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. No, but man. It would almost bother me more if it was exactly the way you're supposed to do it. Now, that's true.

[00:59:41] Now, that is true. What else you got on the lineup? Let's see. I... When they first came up to the area and you hear... Well, you just hear random whistles. And then all of a sudden, the light comes on. Boom. And then everybody whistles all the ones. I can't really do it, but... Yeah. And it felt... I couldn't help but think Lucy's been saying that it reminds her of some kind of a stage production.

[01:00:09] And she imagines Simon as the stage manager setting up. All right. Let's do a run through, everybody. All right. Now, let me hear the alto whistles. Okay. All right. Sopranos. Tommy, you're a tenor. I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Get over there with the tenors. You're not a soprano. Okay. Right. Where's the Negan stand-in? Make your entrance now. I'm like, where's Negan's understudy? Yeah. So then... Anyway, let's see.

[01:00:36] They cart out Glenn, Daryl, Rosita, and Eugene. And Glenn's like, Maggie. And I just can't help but hear him in my head go, you cut your hair. You know, if she hadn't cut her hair, she never would have gotten sick. I am a firm... Enid, cut that hair. Again. Team spy. Enid, cut the hair, and then she gets sick. I'm just saying. So then they're all lined up.

[01:01:00] Glenn, Rosita, Daryl, Michonne, Abraham, Maggie, Rick, Sasha, Aaron, Carl, and Eugene. And like we said, I'm not sure there's a Walking Dead image that gets more iconic than this. And Negan's not even there yet. Simon's go, we got a full boat. Let's meet the man. Knocks on the RV. And then this anticipatory chord of music gets louder and louder. And it's just... There's been so much buildup to Negan at this point with mentions of him throughout the season.

[01:01:29] And even in this moment, there's a pregnant pause. And then Jeffrey D. Morgan steps out as Negan. And in my head, because I... Doing this rewatch is my first time watching these episodes in 10 years. I never went back and rewatched after each season. And in part, it was because I wanted to come to... I knew we'd have a rewatch eventually fresh. And in my memory, he played it in a much more exaggerated way. Hey, everybody.

[01:01:57] But here, he's really a little bit understated, kind of calm under his breath. He's like, piss in our pants yet? You know? It's going to be pee-pee pant city here real soon. Not, it's going to be pee-pee pant city real soon here. Like I had it in my head, you know? I think in the comics, if I remember this specific issue, it was a lot more bombastic seeming in the comics. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh, yes. No, but I think he played it just right. Perfectly.

[01:02:27] Because it wasn't too cartoony. It was a guy who was having fun being a psychopath. That's the way I see it. And in, I mean, probably the episode, the moment in Dead City that I hate the most is when he has to give a similar spiel. I don't remember the setup or anything, but he's almost like backstage trying to work himself up to it. Like he's all pained about having to do it.

[01:02:56] But this is what I have to pretend to do in order to get done what needs to be done to sort of give you the idea that that's what he was always doing. Bullshit. He fucking loved every minute of this lineup. Okay. I could not agree more. Negan is so drunk on his own power here. That's right, man. This is exactly what happens when you give a guy that peaked in high school ultimate power.

[01:03:22] Again, let's count all the ways that Negan was really a piece of shit that we learned about through the years before the fall of humanity. Cheated on his wife. Cheated on his wife with her best friend. Not the crap out of a guy at a bar only because he was laughing at his wife for playing a song. Like his wife was about to kill him before the world ended. So, like, let's be real here. He was never a great guy. And then he got, again, a level of absolute power.

[01:03:48] And I'm going to petition to come back for the Negan backstory episode because I love that one with Hillary Burton. But, like, in that, I do think we see Negan's development of PTSD from a really crazy experience.

[01:04:04] And then that PTSD just continued to fester into this narcissistic, egomaniac, sociopathic, murderous villain that eventually, I do believe, gets broken and becomes somewhat redemptive. I do, too. I would agree with that.

[01:04:26] But, like, yeah, no, he's an evil person right here that is doing exactly what, like, the president's cabinet is doing now. So you just, you get ultimate power and you just don't give a crap and you only look out for your own interests and you don't care who dies because of it. Yeah, because he's drunk on his own power and he thinks he can do anything he want without consequences. And he's pretty much right until the end of season eight. 100%.

[01:04:54] Up until this point, it's, all right, you know, you don't like the way I do things? Prove me wrong. And until then, I'm going to be Negan. Yeah. Fair enough. But so then he says to Rick, you know, I do not appreciate you killing my men. Also, when I sent my people to kill your people for killing my people, you killed more of my people. It's so fun to hear him talk. Not cool. But then I'm like, hey, don't shake people down then. You started it. You know, there's a whole lot of arguments to be made through and through. Yeah, they shook him down. Okay. And that was bad.

[01:05:22] But I can never forgive the outpost. I will never forgive the outpost. The just blatant murder, unless you just accept it's war. And if you accept that it's war, then what Negan does here to Glenn and Abraham is just the cost of doing business. Because the outpost declared war, period. That was Rick declaring war. I don't. I. It sounds like you haven't been listening lately. But I have not. I'm totally against that. Like, I. Okay.

[01:05:51] That's the worst thing Rick ever did. Unforgivable. I think. Yeah. Yeah. And Negan has no argument to make here because he's going around killing. His people are killing children. Oh, agree. He's taking away people's stuff. So, like, fuck you, dude. You're shaking people down. You can't talk. You know, you get what you get.

[01:06:16] I believe they have retconned Negan to be anti-killing kids at this stage in the game of Dead City. I think we are now meant to believe that Negan is an anti-killing kids. And when it did happen in the past, he was upset about it. Okay. So, some of the arguments that people have for Negan are he cares about women. And I'm like, well, give a woman her insulin then, you know. Don't make them your sex slaves. So, that's bullshit. And then, yeah, that he cares about kids.

[01:06:45] But the first thing we learn about him from Jesus is that a savior killed a 16-year-old. Okay. That wasn't Negan there, but as far as we know. But... He created a culture in which that was encouraged or that was allowed. Absolutely. That could happen. And even when he was supposed to go off and kill Alpha of the Whisperers, he instead hooked up with her and hung out with her.

[01:07:11] And he guided them to Hilltop, help them set up roadblocks, save your style. And then they firebombed Hilltop, where there were children. Not only that, he and his people firebombed Alexandria, where there were children. So, I don't know if you can argue that he thinks children are sacred and cares about him when he's firebombing a whole city where there are children. You know? So, I think that's bullshit. All right. I absolutely hear that. I could...

[01:07:41] So, when it comes to the Whisperer War, I could argue that the level of undercover that Negan had to go, he had to do what he had to survive. Because at the end of the day, he's the one that killed Alpha. So, he did what he had to do. He changed his mind once. I do worry that that's the case. Yeah. No, yeah. He said... He kind of gave her a test. With her daughter, if I remember correctly. It was about her daughter, yeah. I mean, if you...

[01:08:07] It's been a while now since I made all these arguments. But I studied it pretty carefully because I had to make all these cases about Negan to listeners who were defending him. And I didn't have to, but I did. But he definitely did betray our people for the Whisperers for a while there. Okay. Then he changed his mind and went back with our people. That did not happen in the comic. He was done by the Whisperer War. He was... Wasn't he?

[01:08:37] He went and killed Alpha in the comic, too. Okay. Oh, sure. Okay. But he didn't trade sides for a while or anything. Okay. So, I mean, he even... In the show... People don't remember this, but he suggested to Alpha, instead of killing these people, why don't you just capture them and make them Whisperers? Right. That doesn't help anybody. It's a weird half measure that nobody wins. So it is a compromise. Yeah. But yeah, no. And don't get me wrong.

[01:09:06] As much as I am a Negan apologist, I absolutely understand that he was a terrible person and will spend a long time in purgatory if that's the way that things are headed. But I just think that he has found a way to earn his redemption. And maybe he hasn't yet. That's okay. But I don't think he is unredeemable.

[01:09:27] I mean, I think at the point where the character is, he has shown over and over again that he's on their side, on the good guy's side. He's saved Maggie. He's saved Herschel. Yeah. Maggie's son. He saved... Ezekiel at one point, I believe. Okay. Yeah.

[01:09:49] I mean, at the point where he is, I probably would trust him myself in a battle at my side, right? But he also still rationalizes his actions and not just with the women, which I think that's one thing he's never really addressed or apologized for. I love that Ezekiel called him out on it later in the series. And JDM kind of defends him. He never slept with any of those women. Yes, he did. That's not true because there was that pregnancy scare.

[01:10:19] Yeah, exactly. In a few episodes, we're going to hear about that. So let's not... That part is bullshit. But there have also been times where Negan has said, I was the monster that the world needed and I did what I had to do. And I just don't buy any of that. No, no one needed a mobster shaking people down. They didn't need that. And like I said, if the way that you make deals is you just humiliate and dominate people, you're setting up maybe a temporary stability.

[01:10:45] But it's going to eventually collapse into war because people are going to fight back. So if he had to be fully redeemed, in my opinion, what you have to do is fully own up to what you did. He's never fully done that. He's apologized for a lot of it, but not fully. Then you change your ways consistently. And he's done some of that, but not all of it, in my opinion.

[01:11:15] Would you feel better if his stance were more along the lines of, I thought I was the monster that the world needed, but I was wrong? Absolutely. Right. So I think there is a way, again, maybe he just needs a little bit more therapy. I have to imagine that there isn't a great therapy session in the new Meyer world. I mean, Denise is dead. Yeah.

[01:11:38] I don't know for sure, but the way you hear JDM talk, I just think he doesn't want, he just wants Negan to have been a hero. I think that's fair. On some level the whole time. And that's just doesn't, you know, it's not as compelling and it's not as compelling as. It's not owning up to what you did. It's trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that you were a good guy all along.

[01:12:01] The thing that makes Matt Murdock so damned compelling is because he is always grappling with the thought of to kill or not to kill and what it means to be a hero versus what it means to save his people. So, yeah, I hear you. But, I mean, it's complicated. It's not like, okay, then that means I hate the character. Like, I think, like, this episode was one of the best episodes.

[01:12:26] Well, we're kind of getting into my last point, but let me finish off with my thoughts on the whole lineup first. So Negan says to Rick, you ruled the roof. You thought you were safe. I get it. But word is out. You're not safe. That just punctuates, like, you thought you knew everything, but you and you were sort of telling everyone else that they were being naive, but you were the naive one.

[01:12:51] And then he demands half their shit and basically says, I'll kill you if I don't get it. And I love his performance throughout this because it's dynamic. He shifts between laughing and smirking to sometimes really scary, intense aggression. And then sometimes he's annoyed and then back to laughing and he's having fun with it. But when he threatens Maggie and Glenn jumps out, no, and then freaks out.

[01:13:19] And, you know, he seems really perturbed in that moment. He's like, no, no, get him back in line. And then Glenn kind of pathetically goes, don't. And that, I think, patheticness puts him in a good mood again because he feels in control. And he's like, all right, listen, don't any of you do that again. I will shut that shit down. No exceptions. First one's free. It's an emotional moment. I get it. He's just kind of really. I really like that read on that. Yeah, I like that read, Jason.

[01:13:48] It's just fun to see how he shifts. He's moody. He's a bit of a moody guy. He sure is. He's having fun. Yeah. And then he points at Carl and this is your kid, right? And Rick's like, just stop this. And then he gets kind of mad again. Hey, do not make me kill the little future serial killer, which I thought was funny as well. Perfect. Perfect. I mean, I like some people can't stand to watch this, but I was fully enjoying myself. And I just thought it was really fun.

[01:14:19] Then he does the whole eeny, meeny, miny, moe. And the way I love the way it's filmed, it's like he's hitting us over the head. But also setting us up to not be able to figure out who it's going to be. Like they really, there are no tells. I probably rewatched the eeny, meeny, miny, moe six times because A, I wanted to pick up the cadence because it was pissing me off. And B, I just like, okay, are there any tells that you know? And there really aren't. Yeah. Yeah. And we had to wait six months in between. So I have that in my notes.

[01:14:48] It's like exactly seven months and 23 days or something. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Seven months and 23 days. Insane. Insane to ask you of that. It's like Jon Snow being dead. I actually heard some spoilers, but I wasn't, I tried to stay away from spoilers, but I heard them and I wasn't sure if it was true and turned out to be true. But I wish I hadn't. And that's, yeah. You know, a lot of people complained about that cliffhanger. And I was, I think, sort of standing up for it at the time.

[01:15:18] Like, hey, I'm used to cliffhangers. I was around when Who Shot JR was a thing. But this is kind of a shitty cliffhanger. I agree now in hindsight because you're waiting seven months to find out which one of your favorite characters has just been beaten to death. That's no fun. Absolutely. You're waiting to see how somebody is going to get out of something. Correct. And not only that, but like they have since admitted that they did it to drum up eyeballs for the season seven premiere, which great job, but man, did it plummet directly after that.

[01:15:48] Yeah. I think that might be like the most highly viewed. I saw 17 million on Wikipedia. Jesus. Makes sense. I was also sort of thinking about, I've already said this, talked about this a little bit, but Rick needed, what am I trying to say? He needed to be taught a lesson, but I would not wish this on anyone. No way. And especially not Rick. Right.

[01:16:17] But he needed to be humbled, but he needed to be humbled. Yeah. Not like this. Right. That said, he needed something to wake him up from being so cocky and arrogant lately. And, um, and I would not say that he brought this on himself, but it could have been, it could have been avoided, uh, if he hadn't done that outpost thing. I mean, if he hadn't done the outpost thing, Maggie wouldn't be hurt. So they wouldn't have to be out there. And also Negan wouldn't have personally needed to be involved. Cause I think that's why he's like, Oh, wait a minute.

[01:16:46] You know, usually Simon's handling all this stuff, but this guy's killing a bunch of my people. I need to get out here and make a big production out of it. I could argue that eventually Negan was going to learn about Alexandria because of their alliance with Hilltop. So I do think to an extent it was inevitable because again, they got solar power, they've got great houses and they have a formidable leader. Truth. I, I, I'm not saying they would never have had to deal with them. I think that you're right. They would have. I'm just saying this particular setup with this line up and everything.

[01:17:15] But, um, yeah, I think, uh, I mean, we've gone over in recent episodes what I think they should have done and they should have like done some reconnaissance first and found out. Maybe just a scoge. That's the big one. But anyways, um, I also think Rick is kind of, you could say lucky that Negan didn't kill him and every one of his people there. Yep. Given that they killed all those people at the outpost. I think Negan was actually kind of stupid not to do that.

[01:17:42] But I think the reason he didn't is because he wants people working for him, as he said. And I think he gets off on breaking people and humiliating them more than killing them. I think this was like, oh, they're fighting back. This is a challenge. And I mean, he, he always goes in and kills one person because it cows the others. And, you know, later he puts Daryl in a cell and plays that song over and again. He just likes to dominate and break people. So that's why he's having so much fun here.

[01:18:11] I love, love easy street. It is one of my favorite songs to listen to. If I am doing, you know, housework and I need something just to give me a quick bop and a jolt, I'll throw easy street on. I don't know what Daryl's problem was. It is a delightful bop. I agree. I think, I don't know for sure, but I suspect for a lot of people, they just associate that song with torture so they can't really evaluate it on its own. But I think it's a fun tune. I do too.

[01:18:41] It's a great song. It's a nice little bop. I haven't used it in any of our wedding drops because of the Negan of it all, but I wanted to. I really like it. I just feel like they're being tortured. Hell yeah. When, at one Walker Stalker in London, I have two friends who are listeners that are musicians. And so I asked them to come up with their own version of easy street, which they did. And they played it at the convention.

[01:19:08] And I think it was Norman Reedus came over the balcony to look and see what was going on and just give him the double flip off. That's balling. That's awesome. That's really cool. That's really cool. I like that. So I had one more point. Do you have any more points? No, I think that's pretty much it that I have for the lineup or really the episode. There's one thing I want to know, but it's about the next episode.

[01:19:36] So I don't really want you to answer it now, but I just want to drop this and I want you guys to cover it next week, which is how safe did you comic book readers feel when Abraham got the bat? And then how, oh my God, were you when then Glenn still got it? Because I have to imagine you maybe did a sigh of relief when it was Abraham. Like, oh man, that sucks. But like, not Glenn. Oh my God.

[01:20:02] You know, like I'm curious as to how you guys from like back in the OG day reacted to that switch up. Right. Yeah. I mean, like I said, personally, I heard a spoiler that it was going to be both of them. And I wasn't sure if it was true. So I think when it was Abraham, there was a part of me hoping that that was it. But I had that spoiler in the back of my head. But I was still hoping. I was hoping, well, maybe that's it.

[01:20:32] And then, but I was a little bit bummed because the spoiler said first Abraham and then Glenn. And that's how it turned out. Because I remember being confused and I looked at Kara. I'm like, what the fuck? I thought, is this supposed to be, does that happen later? Like, what the fuck? And then we go through it. I'm like, oh my God. But didn't you know that sometimes Kirkman would switch it up from the comic? Yes, I did. But I also, because of when I came in, I knew in the TV universe that the death of Glenn at the hands of Negan's bat turned off a ton of fans. Oh, I see.

[01:21:01] And that there was a mass accident. Like, I read the Entertainment Weekly. I read stuff from The Ringer. Back then it was Grantland, I think. So, like, I've always followed this type of stuff. So it was hard not to know the little incidentals. Oh, for sure. I just didn't know exactly how things played out. Right. I just think it's funny you just called Glenn's death a little incidental. You know, I'll be honest again.

[01:21:25] Because I never had an extremely emotional attachment to Glenn, by the end of it, I actually found him a little sanctimonious and a little full of himself. He was more fun at first. He was until that damn game of Portal on Herschel's farm. And then he got super serious about himself. And I think that's, I don't know for sure, but I suspect Steven Yeun wanted, he didn't want to be a joke. And I get that. And I respect that. What do you call the character that always left? Comic relief, yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:55] And I think he could have done both. And I understand. Yeah. Because he did a little bit later on. Like, some of that came back just a little tiny bit. Had some playfulness. Yeah, yeah. But, like, yeah, by the end of it, I was like, all right. Because you always know that the sanctimonious guys never last. Rest in peace, Herschel. Yeah. But, I mean, you can't feel bad for Steven Yeun. He went on to have an amazing career. Still has. I mean, it just, keep on going, baby. Keep on going. I love it, right?

[01:22:24] I love the movies he picks. He was so much fun in Mickey 17 with Robert Pattinson. Yeah, love that. Like, it's a bit of a small role, but he plays it so, so well. Yeah. And this Korean movie, The Burning, is creepy as hell. And he's a guy. You don't know if he's a good guy or a psychopath. And he plays it really well. I like that. I recommend that. So, go ahead. I was just going to say, and also knowing that Steven Yeun was happy that this was the

[01:22:51] way that Glenn, like that he always kind of wanted this to be how Glenn went out, makes me super okay with the fact that this is how Glenn went out. Me too. And I think, yeah, he was a little, he was frustrated that Glenn actually wasn't getting more to do. And I kind of wish Glenn had gotten more to do too, but I don't think he's looking back with any regrets now. Why would he? I mean, he has an Oscar, doesn't he? I think, I don't know, Minari might have won something. I can't remember for sure. Maybe he was part of the ensemble that won something.

[01:23:20] He might have been nominated. Yeah, he's been highly prestiged. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Beef was great. Ah, so good. So, uh, I, I have a little bit more on the downside of Negan. I'm not gonna, I'm going to try not to just harp on these points over and over again as we get into Negan, but it's his first appearance and I do love these scenes. I love JDM's portrayal. I do think he's a great character, uh, as a villain and even as a redemptive figure, if

[01:23:50] they would have done it more the way I wanted, which was not with caveats or leaving big parts out. Sure. Um, but there were a few things that I felt were not played well with the character. One, a little Negan goes a long way and I enjoyed watching him sort of dominate our heroes in this episode because, you know, you put your heroes through the ringer and then you watch

[01:24:18] them, uh, overcome the challenge and, and that's what we're, if they didn't have challenges, we wouldn't be watching it just be them baking pies or something. So this is super incredible scene, but it's not fun to see someone dominating our heroes for two years worth of two seasons. You know, it's too much. I couldn't agree more. They, they had too much wandering and this should have never been a two season arc ever.

[01:24:47] And this, the way that JDM plays this with a glint in his eye and a smirk is really fun for me. Anyway, I know a lot of people don't feel that way for me for this, uh, this scene, but they just kept playing it that way. I think they realized that a lot of people liked it and they kept playing it that way. And after a while, it's like, I'm not enjoying this anymore, but I think the writers think that it's fun and I don't think it's fun. Like he's like calling women fat and just gutting a guy.

[01:25:15] I hate when he visits Alexandria. Um, now I never liked Spencer, so had no problem at that moment. Um, but yeah, I, you know, it's just like, ah, look how fun I am. And just like constantly don't, and Rick is not fighting back, you know? And, um, Negan has hardcore frat boy energy and it's like frat boy with a machine gun. And, and season seven and eight are, you know, widely seen as the worst.

[01:25:44] And it's not just because of what I'm talking about now, but I think it is a big part of it. Just people got tired of feeling that feeling of oppression over that long of a time. Um, and you know, I, I, I, I find myself liking shows where people are petty or flawed Seinfeld. Like, I think those guys are all kinds of assholes, but it's one of my favorite shows or Larry David.

[01:26:13] Um, and Negan is sort of like that, but he's a particular kind of, he's, he's sociopathic narcissistic, I think kind of delusional, even needy in a way underneath that feels like later on that he wants people to like him sadistic, dominating, like cult leader energy. And all of those things I think are things that we need less of in the world, not more.

[01:26:37] And that we've had enough, um, exposure to charming, entertaining narcissists that people revere too much and try to emulate. And we give them too much of a pass on the damage that they cause sometimes, but on the bright side, I think one of the reasons Rick decided to improve was in reaction to this to Negan. He, he became a better person because of all of this. You know, it's so fascinating. You bring that up because one of the reasons I ironically haven't been continuing to watch

[01:27:05] the show and follow along is actually because I can't handle dystopia right now in my entertainment when it's surrounding me in my day to day life on the news. And like, I work for a nonprofit where my job is to help families that are in need, like become self-sufficient. Guess what? There's a lot of families that need that help right now. So like, I, you know, I was watching the hunger games. I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of good on this right now. Fallout felt a lot that way.

[01:27:32] Like, I really don't want to cheer for antiheroes right now. And I don't want to be surrounded by this hopelessness. Yeah. Fallout was getting to me. I do. It was even daredevil, which I adore. It's one of my favorite shows, but the parallels between Kingpin and Trump and his Gestapo and ice was, it was really, really hard sometimes for me to get through without just wanting to throw my remote through the TV because it just, it, it, it aggravates me so hard.

[01:28:00] And like, man, it's going to be real tough. I imagine for you guys to watch this part of Negan while that's going on. Yeah. And I mean, alien earth had some of it too. Did you watch that? It's so much in our, uh, in the Gestalt, in our, in our thoughts that it's just seeping into the culture everywhere. And on one hand, I enjoy, I'm glad that it's like, Hey, look, look at what society is becoming. Everybody wake up. That's kind of the feeling I get, which is why we tend to talk about the real world and

[01:28:28] the podcast sometimes, and it pisses some people off, but I'm just like, that's why, that's why these stories are being put out because people are commenting on what's happening in our culture. But on the other hand, it's like, yeah, what about escapism? You know, and all right, then I'm going to throw on some Schitt's Creek and just, and just laugh for half an hour. I'm going to watch some kitchen nightmares and say, man, I cooked that risotto better. Watch Widow's Bay. I've heard really good things about Widow's Bay. And, um, the, one of the executive producers was an executive producer on Atlanta.

[01:28:58] So that already gets my seal of approval. So I've heard really good things about Widow's Bay. The showrunner was a writer on, uh, Parks and Rec and yeah, it's just great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, that's all I had for points. I had a couple of notes. These are questions for you. Maybe we've already got all these figured out. Um, what, okay, here's a couple. What is that one savior spraying on this poor guy? The X. It's interesting. He's making an X on him? He's, he's, yeah.

[01:29:27] Cause when he's then hanging down, uh, it's the same guy. And I think that's what you're supposed to intone. I'm going to mark this guy. So when you see him later, you understand something. I don't know. Not all of Simon's ideas are bangers. I'm coming to realize. It's some part of their, their, um, incredible organization. Yeah. You know what? Maybe that's how Daryl ends up at a, cause now we're using up X. So then there's a Y and a Z and then Daryl's on a. So that's how that works, I guess.

[01:29:56] Oh, that's a big mystery. Who, who are Y and Z? Um, and where did our people get the gas for the RV? That's probably not even that interesting. So not only that, but Sasha mentioned stopping to fill up the tank, but that's going to be our last chance. I'm thinking to myself, what the hell are you filling up the tank? Like, where's the Texaco? I think, uh, what she means is at one point Abraham said he, I think he said he brought a couple extra cans or something. So they're going to fill up that. That makes me feel better. Stop off at the Arco. Yeah.

[01:30:23] You know, only on the walking dead would a barbed wire wrap baseball bat that murdered two beloved characters become the symbol of a hero. Damn right. With electroshock therapy. Uh, only on the walking dead would I develop the perfect way of finding my family when we are out in public. And that way is.

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[01:33:08] Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens. The people it kills get up and kill. Are they slow moving, Chief? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is a one. Some pretty cool zombie moments in this one when Carol was ripping that one zombie's face off. Awesome. Heck yeah! We never talk about that anymore. So, a few things. One, Last of Us, Peter Sarsgaard has been cast in season three as Eamon the Seraphite.

[01:33:38] Which one is Peter? He, you know, I meant to look up some movies that he was in because the only one I can remember is Green Lantern as the villain. Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. He's good. He is. He's a Sarsgaard. That's all I need to know. That's right. So, JDM... Do I even want to go over this? All right, I will.

[01:34:03] So, JDM and Lauren Cohan talked with journalists at the Monte Carlo Television Festival about Dead City Season 3, which premieres... Do you know when? July something. It's coming up. I really should know since Ben and I are covering it, but I don't. It's all right. So, JDM says, this is our best season by far. This is such a different relationship now. Negan was a great villain and now he just got more layers. He'll always be this person that walked out of the trailer 11 years ago, but he's more multidimensional.

[01:34:33] I wouldn't argue with any of that. This year, there's such a shift in their relationship that brings out yet another side of him. That's why I want to play him. It's still new to me every year. Who would do a series with two enemies who wanted to kill each other and yet here we are? And Lauren Cohan says, this is really the first year when Maggie recognizes that to be defined by grief doesn't serve her anymore. It started in Season 2 with her son. She knows that something had to change, which was very uncomfortable. Season 2 of Dead City.

[01:35:02] There's something bigger, a bigger purpose. We are these unlikely allies that realize how much they can rely on each other and how much they know each other. The irony of their relationship with how they met is interesting. JDM says, this is the last one, we played as much hate as we could over the last 10 years. Now we have known each other longer than anyone else alive. To survive, they need each other and that was a big revelation. To see Maggie smile was so nice. Haven't seen it in 10 years.

[01:35:30] To have scenes that have genuine meaning and depth, it was amazing. We got to see new sides of each other. She didn't even stab me one time. I'm so off-put by all this. You know what, guys? I'm just going to throw it out there. If you haven't watched this week's season premiere of House of the Dragon, go ahead and skip 10 seconds. But I guess if Eamon can kiss Allison, I don't know. Maybe there's hope for Negan and Maggie after all.

[01:35:55] I think if you want to piss off the few remaining fans of the Walking Dead universe, go ahead and ship those two guys. That is the single... That is the most... Are they pulling a producers on us? Is that what they're doing? I don't know. That is such a poison pill. They cannot do it. I mean, it sounds like shipping, but I think what they are doing is not... Friendshipping? Yeah, friendshipping. That's what they're doing. I'm fine with friendshipping. Not me! I don't like it!

[01:36:26] No. Oh, man. If I was... He did not... Here's the thing, all right? Yes, he killed her husband, but in that moment, in that moment, he killed an enemy combatant. He knew nothing about the fact that he was her husband. He knew nothing about the fact he was an unborn baby's father. Would that have stopped him? Probably not. Probably would have made him think it was an even better choice. You know, Maggie's been through a lot, man.

[01:36:52] Like, at some point, maybe she finally just got over the guy she knew for like three years. I don't know. All right. It's been 20. All right. That's our show. No, I'm just kidding. All right. Don't punch me. Sorry, guys. I do tend to just say things to try and get a rise. That's good. That's what you're here for. What am I here for? It makes me... I mean, the two things that make me curious to watch next season... Well, the big one is that Seth Hoffman is taking over as a showrunner.

[01:37:19] He was a writer during seasons four and five of The Walking Dead, so that could be interesting. And I'm just kind of morbidly curious about this, but it bugs the hell out of me. It really... Because I think it's so funny that we're going to be seeing this episode and next episode of The Walking Dead and then go into Dead City with them being friendshiped. Oh, man. That is... It's good timing. That is the craziest timing. Holy cow.

[01:37:48] I had not even considered that, but you're absolutely right. Don't get me wrong. It's weird. Do I think they've earned this friendship? Probably not. Am I willing to roll the dice and see what happens? Sure. Let's see. I mean, the only reason, in my opinion, that they're doing this is because they're two popular characters and they have good on-screen chemistry as adversaries slash people who are forced into helping each other sometimes, but it's really tense.

[01:38:18] And then you can't just keep that going forever. So they're moving on to this. But in real life, I would think that Maggie, if this guy had proven himself over and over again by most importantly saving her son's life, if I was her, I'd be like, okay, fine. You saved my son's life. Have a nice life. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to hang out with you. There is something.

[01:38:46] There's something about the universe that pulls Maggie and Negan back together. And as we've learned through the Daryl Dixon show, maybe the universe is a bit more mystical than we know. So I don't know. Again, at this point in the game, with Maggie and Negan, what else can you do with that relationship other than just like bury the hatchet? Let's be a super duo. And don't forget, honestly, they made Pearly an interesting character by the end of last season.

[01:39:15] He's now part of Negan and Maggie. There is a third person in what's-his-face Pearly. And he's seemingly getting more interesting. I'm excited to see Jimmy Simpson on there, too. He's great. I mean, hell yeah. I wouldn't be upset if Maggie did bury the hatchet right in Negan's skull. There it is. There it is. She stabbed him so many times. She's missing those vital organs. She sure is. She sure is.

[01:39:44] But, you know, what can you do? What can you do? What can you do? I'm excited to see what happens. Yeah, me too. All right. So next, season three of The Daryl Show is going to be on Netflix in the U.S. on July 19th. And Lucy and I really enjoyed that season. It had its flaws, but it was good. It was in Spain. It was gorgeous. Yeah. Recommend checking that out if you haven't seen it yet. No, they have one more season and they haven't given an exact air date, but it should be in the fall. Okay, cool.

[01:40:14] Cool. Final season. And Norman Reedus posted to Instagram about that final season just a couple of days ago. He said, I can't wait for people to see this show. The crew, the best I've ever worked with, with a feeling of accomplishment when it was over, was just amazing. Such hard work. And I put so much heart into this. I think you're going to feel it. It was a special season. I can't wait for you to see it. It just hits way different this time.

[01:40:42] And it's an eight-episode season, like I said, airing in the fall, I think. And I'm a little bit, it makes me feel concerned that we're not going to get some kind of final meetup with all these characters. Because this is the end for Daryl. And if we don't get that, it could be the last Daryl we ever see. I hope that Andrew Lincoln makes a surprise appearance in the final episode. That would be cool.

[01:41:12] Jason, we just got a Scrubs reboot after how many years off air? It is the world of reboots and et cetera. At some point, there has to be an Avengers-style crossover where we get all three communities back to do something about something. Because everyone's going to need to get paid at some point. So Daryl's going to want more bikes. And he's going to need that money. So I am. He would do it. He wants. I think Reedus would love that. Yeah. I think so.

[01:41:42] I think a lot of them would. I worry that they wouldn't be able to create a. I worry. What's that story? Scrubs came back, actually. Not to be. But with a good story to tell. It did? Okay, good. I got to watch that still. I highly recommend it. I'm a Scrubs guy. Next item, Brandon Davis interviewed Scott Gimple, asking him if there was still hope for a reunion of Rick and Daryl and the others. And he said, absolutely still a hope.

[01:42:08] I mean, it's very challenging for a variety of reasons, which have everything to do with the 2026 style of production, which I don't really know what he means by that. But things change very quickly. And I've drawn up all sorts of garden of forking path kind of plans. It might be a minute. It might be tomorrow. I might be off at the retirement home. But I think eventually we'll get there. And I think there's enough stuff to handle source material, emotional, plot wise, everything that we could do something brilliant.

[01:42:37] So I think Scott Gimple has ideas for a story. I think when the goose is done and I have to imagine Dead City is worth four seasons at most. Like, I don't want this one to keep going that long. Like, I think Daryl knows when to bow out and they're going to. So I'm good with that. And then like a good old fashioned 12 episode. Call it OG, like The Walking Dead season 14 or whatever the hell you want to call it. Yeah.

[01:43:07] But I would love that. We'll just skip 12 and 13. It doesn't matter. Yeah, why not? Whatever it was. You know. Yes. I fully agree. It would be great to just get some kind of a limited series with whatever story Scott Gimple wants to cook up. And also, if this is all they could do, I would also be satisfied with a Rick and Daryl hug. That would be good too. Or even, man, you could pull the old. They see each other from across the meadow waving. And you know that everything is going to be all right.

[01:43:37] Honestly, I'll take that at this point. 100%. Get him in a headlock. Hey, man, headlocks are off limits. Oh, you remembered. What happened to your hand? No, I know. That's hilarious. It writes itself. It really does. That's so funny. All right. That's it for the news. Let's move on to Lister Mrones, Growns, Grunts.

[01:44:01] Daphne Beckman writes in, I have never rewatched this episode or episode 7.1, and I don't ever plan to. I knew it was coming, and I still don't think I was really prepared for it. I get it, Daphne. I don't know. I wonder if this one, is this one hard for people to watch? I wonder. Let me know if you're hearing me. I know one would be for sure, 7.1. Yeah. So Cara, my wife, loves saying that, guys. I really do.

[01:44:25] When I was watching it, we got to a certain point, and when the whistle started, she's like, nope, I have to walk out of there. Oh, my gosh. I cannot do this anymore. Interesting. And then you could hear the thwacking of the bat and the squishiness at the end. She's like, you need to hit mute. I need this to be done. So yeah, there are definitely still people that it's an emotional reaction. There you go. I hope I didn't offend anyone chuckling my way through this, but I pretty much do that every time. I'm the kind of guy that laughs at a funeral, just like Barenaked Lady said.

[01:44:55] All right. Danielle says, I wish these episodes got more credit. The emotional impact of the events and the episodes has overshadowed how well produced these episodes are, especially 7.1. I admit I've fallen off of the rewatch because I kept going and rewatched them all while you guys were otherwise occupied, but I'm going to try to jump back in. I'm sure you'll need a voice of positivity. LOL. Well, yes to all that. I agree. I think this episode and if I remember right, 7.1 are just really good episodes. Like you said, they get overshadowed by the emotional impact of them.

[01:45:25] That's one reason why I'm excited to watch 7.1 again. And yeah, Danielle, we would love to have you back. And I think you're right that we're going to need some positivity in these seasons coming up here in these couple of seasons. I couldn't agree. And Danielle, just so you know, when Jason restarted this pod, I did the exact same thing. I watched through the entire series and they were on like Herschel's farm. I know. I know. So yeah, I too got a little off there. Next up, Matt King. Such a pivotal episode.

[01:45:55] Watching Rick's gang get more and more desperate as the net closes on them. One thing I wondered. The Saviors wouldn't have known Rick and company would be forced to try and get to Hilltop to get Maggie to a doctor. So was it just good fortune that the Saviors had already set the series of roadblocks to force them to the death circle? Otherwise, Rick may have not needed to leave Alexandria for a while. I think they just hang out in the woods hoping. Here's my theory.

[01:46:21] We know that they have some sort of communication devices through radios, but I'm guessing Alexandria has like five major roads that lead into it. So if you just set up five blockades in the surrounding perimeter, at some point, you're going to close in on them where you want. So that's my theory. But again, Hollywood. Yeah. For me, it's the Department of Suspension to Disbelief and I'll just leave it at that. It's a very good department. Yep. All right. Alex Robinson says, wow, such a turning point for the show. I remember it like it was yesterday.

[01:46:50] We had a watch party at a friend's house. At the end of the episode, we repeatedly backed it up and paused, analyzing the point of view to the tree line, desperately trying to figure out who the victim was. I remember, yeah, their listeners at the time doing the same thing. Sadly, I do recall being confident that it was Abraham. I haven't revisited this episode or season seven, episode one since they aired, but will be for the rewatch. Well, that's great, man. Same as me. Yeah. We're all in this together.

[01:47:17] Thank you in advance for what I know will be thoughtful coverage of difficult content. Well, I'm sorry that we failed you there. Ben, I really hope you can bring the thoughtful on Thursday because I think I brought the chuckles. I think we did both. I hope. I hope. I think it was a little bit of both. Yeah.

[01:47:35] I mean, you know, one thing that, I mean, since from the beginning, I felt like what was fun is for Karen and I to watch these bleak as fuck because it's been bleak from the beginning. Yeah. Sophie in the barn. Come on. And then to try to bring some light and fun into it, you know, and I hope that the people who found us enjoy that.

[01:48:01] And yeah, but still, I mean, when seven, one came out, I remember I decided that week not to play the intro or anything because it just felt like a special. I remember that. Yeah. We're marked upon, you know, we'll probably play it this time. Time has passed. That's fair. That's fair. No. And honestly, you wouldn't have built the empire you did if people didn't enjoy what you were putting out there. So fair enough. All right. Next up, we've got Lisa Edmondson Walker. Walker. I knew there was something wrong.

[01:48:30] Anyways, such a brutal, heavy episode ending with the cliffhanger that left us hanging for a long, long time about who Negan was killing. On the audio commentary for this episode, they pointed out that the initial roadblocks and threats were shot widely. And as they ran into bigger savior roadblocks and threats, the scenes were filmed closer and more cramped until they were in the lineup and lots of very close shots. Nice. Great pull, Lisa. Great pull.

[01:48:55] It was so emotional watching each of the people in the lineup the first time through, not knowing who would die or whether Maggie would survive being in such terrible condition. I really dreaded watching the next episode. Great pull, Lisa. Love that. Dynamite. Yeah, that's cool. Makes me like it even more. Yup. Amber Lovo, who's watching through for the first time, said, Wow, this episode was anxiety inducing. It's so intense from start to finish. How long was the wait between this episode and 7-1?

[01:49:23] Like Alex said, about seven months. It was crazy. That would have been excruciating. It's nice to see Eugene stepping up. The whistling made my skin crawl. It was brilliant but horrible all at once. I got to the end and was like, thanks. I hate it. Cry emoji. Cry emoji. On to the next episode. I know it's happening and I don't like it. I hope everyone is able to recover from this a second time around. First for me. Heartbroken. Well, I hope you are too. Yeah.

[01:49:51] I can't wait to hear what you think about the next one. Amen. You know, it's funny. I just realized while hearing you say Amber's comment that I had previously mentioned how I used the Negan whistle to let my family know where we're at when we're out and about. But I also mentioned that the Negan whistle is what made my wife want to stop watching the episode. So it's really messed up that I incorporated the Negan whistle into my everyday life. And in case any of the listeners think that, I have come to that realization. Do you actually do that? I absolutely do. That's hilarious. Yes.

[01:50:21] Well, my daughter's a big Negan fan too, because I'm a Negan fan. So she loves Lucille. We have a little prop Lucille and she loves it. So yeah, we're a weird family like that. Right on. You got good company out there. I know it. Darn right. Next up, we've got Nathan Eshelman. I like pointing out when there's a new minor character I enjoy. The first kingdom member we meet is Daniel, played by Daniel Newman. He had a few bit parts in Loki, the vampire diaries, and a lead role in one of the children, the corn movies.

[01:50:49] He's also released a few songs independently that I enjoy. He's my new Shumpert on the show. Someone who doesn't have a lot of lines and mostly shows up in group scenes. But every time I see him, I think, hey, that's my guy. Maybe the kingdom has the right idea wearing the full body motocross gear. I'm sure it's not great in the sweltering heat, but zombie bites seem like they'd be a non-issue. I agree. As ridiculous that the outfits do seem, and they do seem ridiculous a lot of the time. Practically speaking, I think they're brilliant. Yeah.

[01:51:18] They make a lot of sense. My guy is Scott, the Alexandrian. Scott is a good one. I was surprised he never got his big storyline. Yeah. Does Tobin count? Is Tobin too big? No. We'll allow it. All right. I'm a big Tobin guy. He's my guy. He's my guy. He makes a great zombie by the end. He does. And he also made Carol feel things again. And anyone that can do that, you're okay in my book. He's a good dude.

[01:51:47] Randy says, I love how Rick's confidence starts so high in this episode that he's initially trying to warn Simon to avoid a conflict. But as the episode goes on and they encounter more and more organized saviors, you see his confidence slowly chip away, eventually culminating in a later episode with him curled on his knees, crying and pleading. It's an intense takedown of this character. To be clear, I love his takedown from a storytelling standpoint and from a sadistic standpoint. I am a monster. Love you, Randy. Team Randy, right here.

[01:52:17] I bet the group is really wishing Daryl hadn't wasted that rocket launcher shooting a pond when they pulled up the third savior's blockade. Yeah. That's such a good point, Randy. A lighter would have done just fine. I just finished listening to that episode where you guys were talking about that. Like, why did it have to be a rocket? Couldn't it have just been a cigarette? Like, yeah, but the rocket's so cool. And I'm like, hey, it's pretty cool. That would have really come in handy for that last blockade there. So true. It sure would have. Oh my gosh. So funny. All right.

[01:52:47] And just to be, if anybody doesn't know, Randy's never sarcastic. He's completely telling the truth. 100% authentic. Sadistic monster. Yeah. Okay. Here's a message from Carly. Hi, Jason and Lucy. This is Carly. This is my fifth attempt to record this message. It was rough. It was rough. I didn't even want to finish watching the episode.

[01:53:13] You know, Negan, egotistical bastard, just likes feeling his power over people, likes making people afraid of him. It's just disgusting. And it's too close to real life because there are really people out there in the world like that. And I just like a little more fiction in my fiction, you know? So I'm wondering what is, it's a genuine question.

[01:53:41] What is entertaining? What is the value of entertainment that makes us experience that however distanced it is? Because, ugh, it's just so gross. And it continues, I don't remember much, but I do remember that that continues that pressure of Negan just closing his fist.

[01:54:06] You know, the way that they were trapped and the way that Rick struggles to try and find a way out, but then is terrified that whatever he does is going to cause someone else that he loves to be harmed. And I hated that whole sense of it, that Rick has, well, I think it was the title of the past episode, no way out. He has no way out of it.

[01:54:29] And I like a hero who can find a way out of those situations and give us hope that even in the worst circumstances, we can prevail and have hope and figure it out. So I'm, anyway, just, it's just, it was just really rough. Yeah, I don't, I'm glad we're taking a break is what else I'll say to that.

[01:54:56] And yeah, so, okay, bye. Man, Carly, if that's not just everything we were talking about, like, couldn't agree with you more. And I think when this episode came out, it was still the hope era. Like, so seeing something like this was so far removed from something that we thought could be realistic. We didn't have a supervillain president at that time. Like, it was just so different.

[01:55:25] And he, no, it was his first year. That's one of the reasons why Karen. 2016 is when this episode came out. Yeah. No kidding. Okay. Well, then I stand corrected. That's one of the reasons why Karen was like, oh, I can't take this. I get it. I, I trust me. I absolutely get that. And yeah, it, it, shit. I was lucky enough to watch this during Biden era presidency. So, um, yeah, it, I, I hear you. And that's why I, I'm right there with you, Carly. Like it's, it's not an easy hang.

[01:55:53] And when it, you're, when this escapism is just as bleak as reality, it's what are you escaping from? So it's, it's really interesting to me. It's also a little bit, it's hard to process, but a lot of, uh, women just are so attracted to Negan and, uh, it's, he's polarizing, right? He can be repellent. Like it's clear he is to Carly here.

[01:56:19] And at the conventions, I saw so many women flirting with him at the Q and A's and some just straight up propositioning him. And he's like, I'm married, you know? A hundred percent. Yeah. Like, but that happens all the time. I mean, Homelanders talked about that. Yeah. Like the guy from, from you has talked about like, how can you people like this character? This character is a sociopath and a God awful human being. It disgusts me when you tell me that you like that guy.

[01:56:47] I mean, I even heard, I think JD loves it. And I even heard, um, you know, some women in our community one time joking around that if they were in the apocalypse, they would be in Negan's harem. And, uh, I mean, I would anyway, exactly. And I just think it's like this guy, this display of confident, dominant power with a fun, joyous

[01:57:15] aspect to it can go right underneath some people, probably not even just women, just some people's sort of logical brain and hit them somewhere deeper. You know, it's a charming person that is clearly oozing with power and charisma. I mean, it's how these people that are so awful end up in places of power. It's just, it's, it's all about the chemicals of humanity and just what we're all attracted

[01:57:42] to on a personal, social, romantic, et cetera level. It's, it's wild. I've experienced that being attracted to women who I don't really like the way that they, their ideas about the world, things like that. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. Yes. But he's like a character, like I said, polarizing that he can be so repellent to a lot of people and they're like, I don't even want to watch the show anymore. And other people are like trying to meet him at conventions. A hundred percent.

[01:58:11] And then you got Damon Targaryen that everyone loves. Yeah, that's right. All right. Is it, whose turn is it? It's your turn. That's me. Yes. Megan Dively Layman. Question for our hosts. That's us. Who do you think the members of the group most overwhelmingly would have secretly hoped got chosen amongst them? Like in their head while they're kneeling. Who do you think their brains went to? Do you want to answer that before I keep reading? Sure. Uh, let's see.

[01:58:37] Uh, you know, honestly, I think it was probably more who they hoped wouldn't get chosen. So I think, um, Rick was like, not Carl, please. Sure. And Maggie and Glenn were both not the other one. I really don't necessarily think their brain would consciously go to a person that they hoped it would be, but maybe in their deepest subconscious we could answer. Like three days later, they're lying in bed.

[01:59:05] Like, why couldn't it be Aaron? Yeah. First in, first out guys. We don't know him well enough. Yeah. He's, he's expendable at this point in the story. That's who came to my mind too. Even though I think like he's such a good man. Sasha's the most dependable. She's been begging for death half the season anyways. That's true. She's such a tough hang. Like, you know what, Sasha? You want to go out of here? Let's go out. There you go. Why couldn't Nicholas have been here? Oh, man. Nicholas would have been perfect cannon fodder, man.

[01:59:34] What about Ethan Embry's character from the very beginning of the season, man? He'd have been dope to be in this lineup. Ah. Ah. Yeah. No, I would say Sasha's the most logical, but probably Aaron, because again, first into the group first, like last in, first out. Yeah. And just to fully go there and say, who would I personally have not minded losing? Probably the most. Probably Abraham's up there. Abraham was up there for me too, man. Like. Especially after where his story went this season.

[02:00:04] Yeah, man. Did, did I miss the bisquick in the butter? Is that next scene? No, he's already done that. He's done that. I thought so. I thought so. On the way to the compound. Yeah, yeah. Just got to love him. All right. To continue. He's not going to be saying much after this. He sure isn't. He sure isn't. All right. Megan says, I think almost everyone would have been okay with Eugene under the bus. Maybe not Rosita so much. At this point in the story, I could see that. And not Abraham. Definitely. Everyone else was either a woman, a child, and or a strong leader slash fighter in the group.

[02:00:34] I don't think anyone would want to see Carl or one of the women die, and they don't want to lose their strongest members. Eugene was indispensable in other ways, but in that moment, I think he's the one people would have been most willing to let go and breathe a sigh of relief that they and their loved ones survived. I could see the value in that. I don't think Eugene has necessarily proven himself as much as he's going to in a couple of weeks slash seasons. Yeah, me too. Like, in hindsight, I would care more about Eugene because I think he comes into his own

[02:01:04] more in later seasons. But maybe in the moment, he would be pretty high on my list when I got to this episode. But who would you most hate to lose? Who would I most hate to lose? Honestly, for me, man, it's Carl. I am so... We did lose him. I know. I'm so sappy, but I'm definitely one of those children of the future. And this kid is built for this world. He gets it. He understands it. And he is built to survive. Unless he's helping a new guy fight off three walkers.

[02:01:36] Yeah, he would probably be up there for me too. But I think I would, believe it or not, put Rick at the top of the list. He'd be the one I'd least want to lose. Yeah, 100%. 100%. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Even though I've been kind of dogging on him all season. I mean, really, you look at season six. It's where... I always thought that the numbers started to go down, the viewing numbers with season seven, episode one. But I went back through the Wikipedia and season five is where it peaked. Season six is really where it starts to go down.

[02:02:05] And I wonder if that is because Rick has been kind of an asshole this season. I wonder. Yeah, I could definitely see that. And so real quick, the season five premiere was No Sanctuary. My favorite. Yeah. I mean, it's probably the best season premiered in Walking Dead history. I think so. Except for maybe series premiere, but that's a different category. That's, yeah, that was a good one too. This episode is brought to you by Fox One.

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[02:03:02] You don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone all-season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence-inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road, season after season. Firestone all-season tires. For durability, you can count on. Just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900. Stressed your vacation rental is catfishing you?

[02:03:31] Not on Vrbo. Vrbo's Loved by Guests badge highlights top-rated properties guests truly love. The ones with exceptional, verified ratings for cleanliness, location, all the good stuff. That means no surprises. No, this looks better online. What you see is what you get. Look for the Loved by Guests badge and book today on the Vrbo app. If you know, you Vrbo. Okay. Phoebe the Fan says, a couple of quick notes since I'm holding my baby and typing with one hand.

[02:04:01] One, how is Simon getting to all these roadblocks so fast? Just the first one and the last one. That too. Simone. Two, seeing Eugene be so brave in this episode makes us turn to the saviors weird. I remember always thinking he was faking and finding out he wasn't, was a gut punch. Yeah, it'll be interesting to revisit those. I remember thinking it was a good story because not everyone always does the right thing. And some people I feel like would do that.

[02:04:30] And if anyone would, it would be Eugene. But it was hard for Josh McDermott because a lot of fans turned on him during that period. I think Abraham said it best in this episode to him. You're a survivor. And that's exactly what, what Eugene is. He is a survivor. Come what may, whatever he has to end. Dude, when you think about it, all things considered, if it weren't for Eugene, the savior war ends differently. Yeah. He redeemed himself.

[02:04:57] He absolutely redeemed himself through and through and then grew out a badass ponytail. Badass ponytail. And she goes on. Number three, I saw this episode and the day will come when you won't be back to back. So I didn't have the full experience of waiting to see who they killed. If you watch these two back to back as one long episode, I think it's the all time greatest episode in walking dead history. But that's interesting. I will be following your rewatch. So this is the only time in all my rewatches that I won't be watching them together.

[02:05:25] We'll see if my opinion changes. Whoa. First off, huge fan of the back to back philosophy. I think that. So, all right, I'm going to hop on a soapbox for 30 seconds here because I think folks out there in the entertainment viewing world enjoy media how you like to enjoy media. Okay. If you want to back to back that episode, go ahead and back to back that episode. When I watch Andor, I watched three episodes back to back to back because that's how the story is meant to be consumed. I think that's the best way to watch that show for sure.

[02:05:55] 100%. When I watch the Lord of the Rings extended version, I'll watch like an hour and a half at a time, go do my adult things and then watch it. Like you can be as creative as you need to be to watch episodes and that's it. I'm off my soapbox. I just wanted that moment. I like it. Sometimes I listen to audio books about 10 minutes at a time. It takes me like a month to finish a book. I'm here for that. Um, but no, Phoebe, great, great, great job typing that out with one hand. I did not see a single spelling mistake.

[02:06:25] I consistently type with two hands and constantly have spelling mistakes. So great job, Phoebe. That's funny. Steven Fletcher says, oh God, I still have vivid memories of that first watch. I don't think any other episode of the show had me feeling this tense and like I was on the verge of an anxiety attack. Cliffhanger aside, I think this episode doesn't deserve the low rating it's gotten. The tone and vibe of the episode was so well done, very suspenseful and claustrophobic as Rick and chums come across each roadblocks the saviors have for them.

[02:06:54] The arrogance and confidence from Rick gradually dwindling away as the reality of the consequences of what they did a few episodes ago comes back to bite them in the worst possible way. This is undoubtedly the saviors at their smartest and most terrifying. A feeling that sadly didn't last with them in season seven and eight. The last 10 minutes with Negan was hard to sit through, but God, was it so well done. I remember I couldn't even be angry about the cliffhanger at the time.

[02:07:20] Part of me was even relieved because the last scene had been that hard to sit through and because I could still live in blissful ignorance over the summer hiatus about who died and delude myself into thinking this wasn't the end for my dear, sweet, beautiful Glenn. Well said. Well said. Carissa says, I'm catching up on the podcast, but I've fallen off rewatching myself. I think it's a subconscious avoidance of this episode. The storyline and plotting leading up to Negan still feels janky to me.

[02:07:49] I guess you could chalk it up to desperation for food, but the outpost killings were sloppy. Yep. Not knowing if they really got Negan is just beyond incompetence. They should have done more recon and just prep to be invaded. Absolutely agree. They were homeless and ate dogs at one point for fuck's sake. If they all of a sudden are peeing their pants because food is scarce, figure it out. But they needed to be stupid to get to the lineup, right? That's the way it goes sometimes in these things. Yeah.

[02:08:18] And to take Rick down several pegs for reasons. Also, isn't it something that Maggie's mysterious ailment that sent everyone. And I mean, every damn one out into the night to Hilltop somehow miraculously resolves, even after the intense whole body trauma of watching her husband get gruesomely beaten to death, I would have had a whole ass miscarriage. I guess Mags was just lucky. Eye roll. I don't remember how it resolves, but I thought she got treatment from Dr. Carter and Hilltop. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:08:46] But I don't know if that miraculously fixed it or what. I mean, she had the baby. I'm not an OBG, so I shouldn't comment. I'm glad you guys are taking a little breather. We need to gird ourselves for season seven, particularly the first episode, heartbreak emoji. And my snotty attitude about this entire affair needs to burn off just a little. Bye. Yeah. In case people didn't hear me say it before, we're doing this episode and then we'll be doing season seven, episode one.

[02:09:15] And then there's still two or three weeks before Dead City, but we will be taking a break. We'll be, me and my friends Rich and Chris of the Talking Dead podcast are going to be covering the Evil Dead movie that's coming out, Evil Dead Burn. Nice. And then we'll take a week off and then you'll be hearing Alex and Ben covering Dead City season three. It's like we planned this whole primer for you guys, really. Exactly.

[02:09:42] Then after that, I presume they might start in right with Daryl, but they haven't said that yet. So it'll either be, you know, on to season seven or we'll do, Lucy and I will do the Daryl show and then season seven after that. You know what, Jason? I appreciate you for not making the fans wait for all of Dead City and then all of Daryl to get to season seven, episode one. That is very nice of you. I wonder if anyone could learn a lesson from that. Wait, there's an idea though. No, I'm just kidding. You know? No. All right.

[02:10:11] Next up, we have Dylan from Ontario. Dylan says, eeny, meeny, miny, moe. Let's get on with fucking show the show. Coral and Enid arguing that they've been married like they've been married for 30 years always gets me. It always amazes me how comfortable Stephen Og is with being a terrible human being on the screen. I love him. From Trevor in Game Theft Auto 5 to this lovely show. Ricklet and Gabriel know he's one of them is great. Wholesome even.

[02:10:40] I feel like this episode had the longest cold open in the show's history with the opening credits coming in at about nine minutes and 30 seconds. I didn't pick up on that, but I like a good long ass cold open. So I'm going to check that one out. The one line from this episode that sticks with me to this day is Stephen Og's character, Simon, when he says, you'll get to where you're going. Honestly, the whole you're going to get to where you're going.

[02:11:05] You got to where you're going is such a additionally delicious level of manipulation. I loved it the entire time. Wait, I want to find what I thought was his favorite life. Oh, when he tells Rick, we'll take your weapons. And I think he pointed his gun at Carl and Rick goes, we can talk. And he goes, we're done talking. Time to listen. Yep. So good. Just got so good. All right. The overflow of suspense.

[02:11:35] This one brought to the table was excellent. Morgan is finally faced with having to kill someone to save someone he cares about. Even if it is depressed old Carol going about her weird shenanigans, getting people hurt in the process. Let's all roll the eyes together. You know, we were doing so well until you came after my girl, Carol. All right. Eugene holding an automatic rifle is the equivalent to a six year old being forced to rush his dad to the emergency room via the family Jeep. I have no issues with that analogy.

[02:12:02] Not sure how many disposable fellows the sanctuary has, but the amount of manpower it would take to move those logs into the middle of the road and have them stacked is a little more than I like to believe. They can muster. The rumor round table for who was going to be cast as Negan was very ranged with names like Kevin Durant. No, not that Kevin Durant. John Hamm and even John Travolta, I believe was mentioned at one point. However, my favorite one was Matthew Lillard. That could have been Negan. Yeah.

[02:12:30] There was also Henry Rollins. Yeah. That would have been fun. I think he was actually the inspiration for the character in the comic and they had him come in and read. Yeah. He just wasn't quite there. He had to go film the chase again. JDM played the part fairly well with my only complaint being the inability to run with the absurdly abhorrent dialogue he had in the comic. It's probably for the better, but it would have been nice to hear more. Yeah. I think if this had come out today, they would have had more. So many more F-bombs. Yeah.

[02:13:00] Absolutely. So much more despicable and just hilarious. Hilarious. Yeah. The campaign that AMC had after this episode was weird and felt like an early 2000s soap opera with the whole whodunit thing they had going on. The internet was ablaze with guesses and theories, although I believe this was the point where most folk jumped off. The show. Only on The Walking Dead would someone spray paint on a man's dirty shirt as a way to look cool in front of his peers.

[02:13:26] I will say, I did think using orange on that cover of brown and dirt was not very effective. White would have been better. But that about does it over here. Hope you all stay unbitten. Thank you again for sharing the experience. Thanks, sir. Thank you, sir. It just looked funny to me. Like, it was like spraying, like, deodorizer on our show. It was. And it was fantastic. Now, I will say this, Dylan. I see you're from Ontario.

[02:13:56] And I've always thought Canadians were a happy bunch. But you have a level of surliness that I certainly enjoy, my friend. All right. Takes all kinds. It does. Get some good, thoughtful nitpicks in there. Okay. Here is a call from Renee. Hi, Jason and Alex. I hope you guys had a wonderful Father's Day. What I love about this, what I loved about this episode was watching the crew step up and defend one another.

[02:14:24] Father Gabriel and Eugene have officially become gang gang. The difference between Rick and the crew and the saviors and Negan couldn't be more clearer in this episode. Rick and the crew fight for each other. Negan and the saviors exist to force people into submission. And that is why Negan gets under my skin so much.

[02:14:52] I know this is a fictional show. But as a black woman watching people get beaten, hunted down, robbed of their resources, Lynch enforced to serve someone who believes he has the right to rule over them hits differently. There's a historical context there that I can't separate from what I see on the screen.

[02:15:20] When the saviors beat that man and knocked his teeth out and were willing to kill people. All because they refused to be controlled. All I could think about was who in the hell made Negan and the saviors king. And his henchmen, his thugs. Because that's all they are, thugs. Negan's whole philosophy is the more you fight back, the harder it'll be. To me, that's not leadership.

[02:15:50] That's intimidation and abuse. Again, who the hell does he think he is? And what makes it even worse is the condescending, patronizing attitude wrapped in humor. Negan does it and the saviors follow his lead. They're constantly talking down to people, making jokes while people are suffering. And it irks my soul every time. And this storyline is hitting me much harder now than it did when I first watched it 10 years ago.

[02:16:19] And it's because of life experiences and because of a deeper historical awareness. And maybe it's also because I have developed more empathy over the years. Whatever the reason, scenes that once felt like part of the story now feels much heavier. The cruelty and the fear and the hopelessness feels so heavy.

[02:16:42] And speaking of hopelessness, seeing Rick in a van after spotting Michonne locks on that walker absolutely broke my heart. He didn't know what had happened to her. But you can see that defeated look washed all over him. He didn't have to say a single, he didn't need to say a single word. The fear, grief, and hopelessness were like written all over his face. And actually it was written all over all of them, all of their faces.

[02:17:12] And it was heartbreaking to watch. When Rick told the saviors he didn't have to kill, he didn't have to kill any more of their people. And when he comforted Maggie with so much love and compassion in his voice, it reminds me why I rise so hard for Rick Grimes. No, he is definitely not perfect. And yes, he has made plenty of mistakes. But at his core, he's a good man trying to protect his family and community. And one thing for sure and two things for certain,

[02:17:40] Negan has wrote a check that his ass will not be able to cash. As my grandma used to say, it may not be today and it may not be tomorrow. But nothing is going to stop Rick Grimes from ending Negan's reign of terror. Matter of fact, like Rick said, they are already dead. And that's why I believe in Rick. All righty. Peace and love. Bye. That's why we love Renee. I love that, Renee. Thank you.

[02:18:09] At one point, Rick said, I'm going to kill you. And that's one promise he hasn't kept. And I don't think he's going to. I don't think he is either. But you're absolutely right. You are absolutely right. Now, he didn't mention what kind of weapon it was going to be with. So it wasn't one of his better threats. But he did say he was going to kill you. That's a great point. Renee, I hear you. And I agree. I think the colder the world gets, the harder it is to watch this stuff. So I hear you, sister. I do. But I still love me some Negan.

[02:18:38] So can't wait to talk to you in a couple of weeks. All right. Rachel Teal Edwards says, wow, I can't believe I forgot that the majority of this episode is just that one savior shaking a can of spray paint. Seriously, how long did that go on? Felt like 30 minutes at least. That's funny because I read this comment before I watched the episode and I was like, really? I took it literally. How long did it go on for? I don't remember. I thought it was just wonderfully menacing. It was funny. It was so weird.

[02:19:08] But watching this episode now, it was very obvious that Abraham was getting the bat. Yeah. They kind of telegraphed it because he was telling Sasha, I want to have your baby, Sasha. And that spelled his end. But then I think they tried to trick us by having Eugene give Rick the bullet recipe. Oh, true. So maybe you think it was him. And then when they, so then they got to have their goodbye moment and we weren't sure which one of them it was going to be.

[02:19:39] I admitted that. Anyway, she goes on. Um, there's so much talk about the future with Sasha and he's so contemplative and making plans and thinking about babies. It was always going to be Abraham. As Lucy was saying last week, even in the lineup, when Negan comes to Abraham, he straightens up as if to say, I ain't afraid of you. He may as well have volunteered as tribute. Negan clocks it notes, the size of his attitude. And yes, I believe Abe made the top of his list right then.

[02:20:06] And Negan just toyed with a group for a while as, as he sized every what up or more realistically, the writers just wanted to toy with the viewers and leave us with that ridiculous quote cliffhanger. I think it was both. Yeah. I put cliffhanger in quotations because I think it was really basic and stupid, just barely a cliffhanger. It ends at a moment of suspense. Sure. But we knew exactly what was happening, just not to whom it was happening. I'm pretty sure we all went into the finale wondering who's it going to be because of the marketing.

[02:20:32] And then at the end of the finale, everyone was saying, who's it going to be? It really pissed me off. Maybe they shouldn't have built it up like they did. And the episode should have ended when Simon knocks on the RV door and everyone's on their knees. That would have been more interesting of a cliffhanger to me, at least. Who the hell is Negan? What's going to happen? Is someone going to die? Or they could even show that he chose Abe and then cut out as we hear him beat to death. It'd still be an insane finale because what the hell happens next?

[02:21:02] And there'd still be the Glenn surprise in the premiere. Instead, they started off with a whole, that would be crazy if they killed Abraham in the finale and then Glenn in the premiere. That would have been wild. Instead, they started off the whole Negan arc by pissing me off. And that didn't really end for two years. Gosh, this was 10 years ago, but it feels like yesterday. But I'm really trying to start this next chapter with a clean slate. I need to try to do that too. It was interesting that I felt basically nothing through this whole episode.

[02:21:31] I wasn't tense or dreading the end or angry or anything. Just watching. Maybe my mind is like, yeah, I'm not doing this again. That's understandable. And I'll be able to observe all at war with new eyes. Here's hoping. I think I'm a little bit like that too. I'm more just appreciating it as an episode than like really emotionally grounding myself in the horribleness of it. Yep. Yep. I think so. And again, I was able to go in with extremely different eyes of a bit of premonious of power of kind of knowing what was happening.

[02:21:59] So, yeah, I like that. I will say I love now, Grant, I didn't have to wait seven months, but I thought I think that the finale and the way that it shows you someone will die and you're going to see and hear just how brutal it is. But you don't get to know who it is. I thought that was a good cliffhanger. Now, I just I do.

[02:22:22] I think also, if I remember correctly, when they start season seven, episode one, man, you don't find out for like 20 minutes who the first victim was. And that's also really frustrating, guys. It's like you could if you're especially if you're going to take out to at least let me know the first one within the next three minutes. OK, I yeah, I think in the moment I didn't mind it so much, but I didn't blame people for being for for being annoyed having to wait that long.

[02:22:50] But and I'm not trying to take anything away from what you just said, Rachel, this is all subjective and we all have our own opinions of it. But for me, in hindsight or not in hindsight, but now that we don't have to wait that long, I think it's actually pretty cool because you get to see Negan hit you, which is fucked up, man. Don't hit me. But it's creatively fun and cool, in my opinion. Even the blood coming down on the camera. I love that. And he's like laughing at you. You see it played out from the other angle. You're like, oh, yeah, that is how it plays out. That's so wild. Dick. I hear you.

[02:23:20] And then and then you could just fire up the next episode and see who it was. So anyway. All right. Billy Thompson. Hello. Hello. Hope you guys are well and have survived this episode. The whistling had me on edge instantly. Such a good mechanism for the saviors to have. Such a creepy way that forces victims into panic and fits in with the horror side of the show. Perfectly. Imagine just traipsing through the woods and hearing that. Just wanted to show some appreciation to Gabriel. Such a good little lark he had over the last season.

[02:23:49] Maybe he's not been a real main character or hasn't really led an episode since his debut. But he doesn't get enough credit, in my opinion. Really got his shit together and probably the first time I've completely believed what he said. Classic Abe finishing a heart to heart with the line, bitch nuts. Right? Although he was a complete prick in the way he ended his relationship with Rosita. I think we've gotten to see so many of his good characteristics since then in these past last couple of episodes. And right up to his end in the next. Carol's scene with the savior was mental.

[02:24:18] Just puts into perspective how down she really was. The laughing. The probably not when asked if she suffered. Such a powerful haunting scene portraying her emotions and exactly where she was mentally. I'd totally forgotten that this probably would have been her last day on earth if it wasn't for Morgan. You have to give it to him. JDM is perfect as Negan. So charismatic. Just owns the whole scene. I actually found myself smiling when he appeared from the RV. Which really surprised me.

[02:24:46] The smile quickly dissolved as I started realizing once again I had come to terms with Negan's actions next episode. Why are you doing this to us, Jason and Lucy? What have we ever done to you? This is the point I usually get up to before I stop when re-watching. Although I've seen parts of the rest of the series online countless times. Like the big story beats. I've only ever watched it through properly once from this point. So I'm interested to see how I feel about the next couple of not so great seasons with hindsight. Me too. No. Absolutely. Knowing the show does eventually get past this dip.

[02:25:16] There is so many good episodes slash characters coming up. I'll try to focus on them. But it's going to be a slog at times. Anyway. Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on Negan's debut. Thanks guys. Bye. Yeah. I probably will. If we're not loving it, then we'll just do shorter episodes of the podcast probably. You know. There you go. Chat about it a little bit and not belabor it too much. All right. Brinaldi says,

[02:25:46] Oh, hi Jason and Alex and Lucy who's off this week. I enjoyed the discussion on the podcast about how the saviors justify themselves, but also the argument that they are the ones responsible for the conflict that's occurring in the back half of season six, especially on the episode, the same boat. Paula versus Carol episode. Yeah. Yeah. They keep saying they're doing their, they're fighting back, but they're the ones who started it by going around terrorizing people. I think there is that.

[02:26:13] I think the moral debates prior to Negan's onscreen appearance in episode six, 16 add to this back half of season six. Even when these debates have been heavy or the episodes are heavy in tone bullet points on episode six, 15 East East is ranked number 79 out of one 77. Am I walking dead rankings? It was pretty good, but not great episode. In my opinion, I really liked this episode because of one, how Glenn tried to convince Daryl to come back to Alexandria to Rick and Morgan's conversation.

[02:26:42] Three Carol killing those saviors in self-defense with a hidden gun for Dwight. It's you'll be all right. Lion after he shot Daryl was ridiculous. I agree with you guys that it was to prevent Daryl fans from writing. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Do we see where the wound was, was like in his shoulder or something? I think it was in his shoulder just because of the amount of blood that was all over his neck and like coming down. Yeah. So he's, he's wounded. Sure. I forgot about that.

[02:27:09] I love the way the episode last day on earth opens with Abraham telling Rick, anytime any of us are in trouble, I'm there. And then Rick lets him in the RV because it shows Rick and Abraham are on the same page. Then the other characters get in the RV, Sasha, Carl, Aaron, and Eugene. That's when the scene turns on its head for a comic book reader like me, because this is one half of the lineup. Dwight captured the other half. It's a chilling way to start. Episode 616, the last day on earth. I love how this episode all begins with Simon.

[02:27:37] At the end of the episode, Rick becomes like that helpless man being tormented by Simon in the cold open. Very clever storytelling in my opinion. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. He's at his, at his mercy. Simon saying with supreme confidence today is going to be the last day on earth for one of you sent chills down my spine and made my stomach queasy. He was right. Yeah. I think that's what makes the last day on earth. My number 59 out of one 77 in my walking dead rankings.

[02:28:07] I thought it was great episode. Well, I'm Rinaldi, not vegan. I mean, I'm not Negan. Stupid autocorrect. All right. Bye. I never would call you Negan. No. Or vegan. Okay. Here's our final call from Steve Brown. Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve. And here we are. We're at the final episode of season, what is this? Six? Yeah. Season six.

[02:28:37] The last day on earth. I think I may have watched this once before after it aired, but I'm not sure. And we start with the infamous whistle while Morgan is still tracking Carol. Abraham and Sasha are a package deal along with Eugene. Oh, and this is our introduction to Simon, right? This guy they chased through the woods, but we don't know what Simon yet. Oh, and it sounds like Gabriel's got the plan for what they're supposed to do. Why didn't they ever do that before? This is still the cold open.

[02:29:06] I'm trying not to go long on this one. I was looking and I didn't see Jeffrey Dean Morgan's name in the credits anywhere. Is he not credited until the end of the episode? Oh, so here we see the example is for our group. Oh, Rick just said the last day on earth. Title of the episode? Mic drop. And then Simon said it, so another mic drop. Now it's just silly. I'm not going to say it again. Oh, Carol and Morgan are just going to hang out until night? I don't understand that whole scene, but I understand they had to have them somewhere, I guess. Now Abraham and Sasha talking about the future.

[02:29:36] That's foreboding. More saviors blocking the next road. Oh, okay, this is the library that the saviors and that other guy were talking about. And now they're starting to figure out that they got numbers. Oh, so now they figure out that the saviors have Michonne, Daryl, and Wright Glenn. Oh, I didn't realize it was Michonne's hair that they saw. Ew! Carol's pulling the hair out of that walker. Ew! And now one of the bad guys just tackled her. And we keep getting these flashes of somebody with like a bag with their head or something. I'm assuming that's probably somebody that was captured.

[02:30:04] Oh, and Morgan just killed the guy. Oh, and they just got found by the guys from the kingdom. Abraham always with the colorful phrases. There it is, last day on earth again. Tile of the episode, Mike Trout. Okay, there's more to making bullets than just putting powder in a casing and then putting a bullet on it. It's way more complicated than that. I'm not going to get into it, but it's just, trust me, it's way more complicated reloading bullets than this show makes it look like. I know that's down the road a bit, but I just had to say it.

[02:30:33] Oh, and so they're walking through the woods, but now we hear the saviors whistling. And now they're caught. Listen to that whistle. And they already have Eugene on his knees. Oh, that's right. Now they're all on the knees. Let's meet the man. Jeopardy Morgan's delivery of this monologue is so good. Not cool. Not cool. Oh, and Glenn gets up when he starts to talk to Maggie. And is that why Glenn's the one? I don't know. I get it. Remember, we don't know really until next season who he kills though, right? Oh, yeah.

[02:31:02] I remember we don't see. We just see blood on the lens. And there it was, Jeopardy Morgan right at the end. Oh, special guest star. All right. On to season seven. A lot of sigh in there. Loved it. Loved it. I guess Steve can be our bullet maker in the apocalypse. It sounds like. That's always been my plan. I just haven't had the chance to formally request it of him. So, Steve, the request has been made. It's been made. It's official.

[02:31:33] All right. That is our episode. Episode 708. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Thank you, Alex. That was great. It was longer. And I think this is one of those episodes that deserves it, right? Calls for it. Couldn't agree more. It was absolute pleasure. It's always a pleasure being on these airwaves. I'll be back in a couple of weeks. But always a great time. Awesome. Yeah. Looking forward to that. Next episode is the infamous Walking Dead Season 7, Episode 1, The Day Will Come When You Won't Be.

[02:32:01] With me, Lucy, and Alex's co-host, Ben. Woo! If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, you should check out Dragon Cast because House of the Dragon just premiered Season 3. And Wendy, Veronica, and Archmaester Rennie are going to be out with their podcast on that soon. And also, I forget if I mentioned this on the last one,

[02:32:28] but recently I just transferred all of our previous Game of Thrones coverage over onto that feed. So it's every episode so far of House of the Dragon, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and every single episode of Game of Thrones is on there. Nice. With proper music. Yeah. And I want to mention this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Ray Rasmussen who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you so much to Ray.

[02:32:56] That is mostly, so, you know, I actually absolutely need the Patreon to keep doing the podcast. So I very much appreciate everyone who shows support that way. I've been kind of lax on the perks aside from the ad-free episodes lately, but we did a travel experiences call-in show last month that was really fun. And I'm getting ready to do a Patreon-exclusive podcast Zed Head show with Damien and Randy where we play five songs we've gotten into lately and talk about them.

[02:33:26] Those are always a lot of fun. Nice. Because I just listen to a lot of cool music lately. And I love just appreciating. That's what all this stuff is about, appreciating the things that we're into together. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Alex Kruger. Outstanding! Have you ever wondered why Reese Witherspoon founded Hello Sunshine? Or where Kevin O'Leary got his start? Or even how Alex Earle became the most accessible founder

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